Annie Lamont: $14B Managed, 70+ Exits, 15 IPOs, 7x Midas Investor

Annie Lamont is Co-Founder and Managing Partner of Oak HC/FT, the healthcare and fintech investment firm she built with Andrew Adams. Across 40+ years she has managed $14B, backed 70+ successful exits and 15 IPOs, and been named the top healthcare investor on the Forbes Midas List multiple times. Her portfolio includes athenahealth, Devoted Health, One Medical, CareBridge, VillageMD, Main Street Health, Komodo Health, and Chai Discovery. Recorded at the New York Stock Exchange, the conversation covers China taking 50% of pharma's outside research dollars, clinical trial reform at the FDA, and Chai Discovery's roadmap from antibodies to peptides to small molecules. Lamont also explains how AI can cut the 25% to 30% of healthcare costs that are administrative. On the investing side, she walks through backing repeat founders Todd Park and Brad Smith, CareBridge's acquisition by Elevance, Oak's $1M to $100M check sizes across a $2B fund, and newer portfolio companies Halluminate and Auger. The episode closes with the Brex Performance segment on mentors. "I just think you've got 10% of the world that's worth it & 90% that's not." We cover: › Why AI drug discovery changed in the last 2 years › China's rise in life sciences › Devoted Health tripling in size and halving its operating ratio › Why only 10% of AI companies justify their valuations › Auger and Dave Clark's $100M AI supply chain build Annie Lamont: https://x.com/annielamont Molly O’Shea: https://x.com/MollySOShea Sourcery: ⁠https://x.com/sourceryy 𝐄𝐏𝐈𝐒𝐎𝐃𝐄 𝐋𝐈𝐍𝐊 YouTube: ⁠https://youtu.be/sjd_G6-k930 https://youtu.be/sjd_G6-k930 𝐒𝐏𝐎𝐍𝐒𝐎𝐑𝐒 • Brex https://brex.com/sourcery—The modern finance platform, combining the world’s smartest corporate card with integrated expense management, banking, bill pay, & travel. https://brex.com/sourcery • Zone https://zonefrontier.com/—develops next-generation data center campuses, partnering with AI companies, site developers and technology leaders to bring compute online faster and at scale. Visit: https://zonefrontier.com https://zonefrontier.com/ • Turing https://turing.com/sourcery—Turing delivers top-tier talent, data, and tools to help AI labs improve model performance—and enables enterprises to turn those models into powerful, production-ready systems. https://turing.com/sourcery • VCX https://fundrise.com/vcx—VCX is the public ticker for private tech, allowing investors of all sizes to invest in venture capital. View The Portfolio at http://GetVCX.com http://getvcx.com • Deel https://www.deel.com/sourcery—Deel is the global people platform that helps startups hire, manage, pay, and equip anyone, anywhere. Trusted by more than 35,000 fast-growing companies, Deel is the people platform that just works, so teams can scale without the chaos. Visit: https://www.deel.com/sourcery • Public http://public.com/sourcery–Investing platform Public just launched Generated Assets https://public.com/generated-asset, which lets you turn any idea into an investable index with AI. With Generated Assets, you can build, backtest, refine, and invest in any thesis with AI. Gone are the days of one-size-fits-all ETFs. https://public.com/sourcery Follow Sourcery for the latest updates! https://www.sourcery.vc https://www.sourcery.vc/ Disclosure Paid Endorsement. Brokerage services by Open to the Public Investing Inc, member FINRA & SIPC. Advisory services by Public Advisors LLC, SEC-registered adviser. Crypto trading provided by Zero Hash LLC, licensed by the NYSDFS. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool by Public Advisors. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. See disclosures at public.com/disclosures/ga. Matched funds must remain in your account for at least 5 years. Match rate and other terms are subject to change at any time. 𝐓𝐈𝐌𝐄𝐒𝐓𝐀𝐌𝐏𝐒 (00:00) Annie Lamont, Co-Founder & MP at Oak HC/FT (00:56) How AI reshaped the line between Healthcare and Fintech (08:35) The China threat to American drug development (17:03) Are Hospitals actually at risk from AI? (23:26) How AI will transform your healthcare experience (32:58) How M&A is changing in Healthcare (58:49) What's kept Annie Lamont going for four decades

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Molly O'Shea?

  You've managed 14 billion across your career, 40-plus years of investing across healthcare, fintech, technology, 70-plus successful exits, 15 IPOs, number one healthcare investor on the Forbes Midas List seven times.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  We've been looking at AI for the last decade and have not seen it produce more developable products, therapeutics. Everything's changed the last two years. With Devoted, you now have AI enter the picture. Over the last year, they've tripled the size of their company, halved their operating ratio, dramatically increased their EBITDA. In my over 30 years of investing, there has nothing been as interesting as this or seminal in terms of just realigning the entire economy.

• 0:41Molly O'Shea?

  When do you think these legacy institutions will actually take a hit?

• 0:56Molly O'Shea?

  Annie Lamont, First Lady of Connecticut and founder and managing partner of Oaks HCFT. Thank you for joining us at Sorcery.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  I'm so happy to be with you.

• 1:07Molly O'Shea?

  We're here at the New York Stock Exchange. I just want to start off by your background, by the numbers, because you are a legend, as they would call it. You're an icon and a legend. You've managed 14 billion across your career, 40-plus years of investing across healthcare, fintech, technology, 70-plus successful exits, 15 IPOs, number one healthcare investor on the Forbes Midas List. I think we've said seven times.

• 1:37Molly O'Shea?

  And we'll talk about the portfolio and everything, but notable investments include Athena Health, Devoted Health, One Medical, Carebridge, Cotivity Health, Village MD, Main Street, Komodo, Chai, and a handful of others. But to start, again, it's great to have you on. The last time I saw you was in Napa, which was an amazing event. So could you explain what was going on there?

• 2:03Speaker 01

  So we invited all of our CEOs and then we had a group of industry individuals and advisors and panels. But it was mostly just to create connectivity amongst our portfolio, talk about strategy and just have a blast.

• 2:20Molly O'Shea?

  So I want to talk about Oak today. So you're notably known as the healthcare and fintech fund, and that's definitely changed over time with the proliferation of AI. But what has that tension been like for you and the evolution of the firm?

• 2:37Speaker 01

  I think no fundamental tension because we have invested over time in horizontal platforms that apply to healthcare and fintech. And fintech is, it's the movement of money. You know, it's sort of, it can apply to anything and everything. We have invested in supply chain in the past. You know, we've invested in, you know, risk and cyber and fraud. And so, and I think as you think about the new AI world and you look at horizontal platforms, what's interesting is that between our fintech and healthcare practice, it's really 50% of the economy. So we have, we know intimately

• 3:20Speaker 01

  a lot of the enterprises and customers these companies are selling to. And it's very hard, for example, particularly in healthcare, to sell into healthcare companies, understand the buying motion, what they're interested in, who the people are. And we, we know all of that. So, and it's the smallest, large market you've ever seen in that it's, you know, 100 providers that matter. There are 10 large payers. And, you know, having that depth of time, experience, relationships is incredibly helpful to a lot of companies that are selling horizontal solutions that they, that often need to be. I mean, what's the advantage of AI? That you can create a horizontal product that actually works in a deep way with workflows

• 4:04Speaker 01

  or specifically in a, in a particular industry.

• 4:08Molly O'Shea?

  So what are you seeing in the market today?

• 4:13Speaker 01

  What are we not seeing? I think, so what are we seeing now? I would say what is, what is interesting and change for us? I mean, if, starting with healthcare, because that's about 70% of what we do.

• 4:27Speaker 01

  Life Sciences is something that I started my career in, in biotech, you know, with the early days with Genzyme and Siflin and Chromie's Alexion. And, and so we, we deeply understand that we've been in pharma services for a very long time. We've been looking at AI for the last decade and had not seen it produce more developable products and therapeutics. And everything's changed the last two years. So we're incredibly excited with, like I mentioned, Chai Discovery Investment last year, which is now creating, has amazing models and products oriented towards drug design and discovery.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  And we're, we are intentionally going into that space and are going to be deeper and deeper in it. We're going to be adding partners in San Francisco, building out our San Francisco office further. Because of so much of AI, whether it's life sciences or any other industry, that the AI is, the software AI is being developed for is happening in San Francisco.

• 5:35Molly O'Shea?

  I was recently speaking with Ben Lam, who's the CEO of Colossal Biosciences. And, you know, I haven't had many health, biotech, life sciences conversations yet, but it's something we're going to be doing more of because it is really hitting now. It's exploding. So could you explain, like, why is it exploding? Why is AI working its way into this category so well now? Why has it matured at this point in time?

• 6:05Speaker 01

  I think it was so interesting was the advent of LLMs with the infrastructure around them. You've created biological models and models around chemistry that are not LLMs. They're very specific to the industry, but people see the opportunity, physical AI, robotics in labs. There are so many opportunities to change the cumbersome process of drug design and development that it is like everything else. Every industry is being transformed and, and this is one of them. And it's probably the most difficult, the most expensive industry today to develop products the most haphazard,

• 6:49Speaker 01

  probably the highest fail ratio, right? Of any product that's being developed out there. And to be able to increase the odds of success and accelerate that drug development so you get life transforming products into human beings

• 7:09Speaker 01

  is just game changing. And I think it's incredibly exciting and it's a moment of the sciences between immunology, oncology, and some of the great research approaches that are now happening,

• 7:23Speaker 01

  that it's just a confluence of events that are all coming together to, to, I don't know, inspire and develop therapeutics. And I think we also have a China is in the last four years, the trajectory of China and life sciences is wildly threatening to the United States of America and for not only commerce here and our pharmaceutical industry, our biotech industry, you know, but also the delivery of, of drugs in the US. And we, we found out during COVID, you don't want them producing, you know, 90% of all the ingredients for antibiotics, right? It's not that companies won't partner with them here, but, you know, the pharma in the last four years

• 8:09Speaker 01

  has 50% of the outside dollars they're spending on research are going to China. That was not the case five years ago. And so we have an existential threat in this country and industry that is being co-opted. And we need to, through technology and tools and investment and a complete re-engineering of our FDA and processes, fix that rapidly.

• 8:35Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah. Can you, can you speak to that a little bit more and lay out the field for the China situation and even drug development? I mean, I know India is a big part of that as well, but can you lay out kind of the, the framework? And I guess the map for that?

• 8:49Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, it starts with fundamental research. And I think people would say, oh, there's a lack of creativity in China. You know, therefore they haven't produced as many patents and everything is a me-too drug. And the reality is, is they have, like, they have a lot of me-too drugs, right? They, they are absolutely taking something and then maybe changing, you know, one tiny bit of it and in order to be able to reintroduce it into America as a new drug. But the truth of it is that on the research side, they have as many or more patents now coming out of university and out of their research arms as we have.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  And that is something that, you know, we need to think about as the NIH is pulling dollars from investment and research in our universities. Our universities are the bedrock of all discovery in America, you know, all these products and drugs in America, right? And if we're fundamentally undermining those internationally, globally, that can come to our universities, that we're undermining grants to those, you know, to those individuals, we will compromise the ultimate, you know, the, the pipeline of drugs.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  You know, today, that's not a problem. I've, I just fear it's more of a problem in the future.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  And, but from, as industry, we're now like Chai is in drug design, you know, creating models, creating products that are not, you know, not just models, but products that can be used very effectively by non-tech savvy individuals within pharma to build new, new drugs and to, to improve drugs they already have. So it's, it is drug design and discovery, but it's, it's also reinventing what you, what has already been created.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  And every step of the drug design discovery process, all the way through clinical trials, can be redesigned and rethought. And so much of that can be done through simulation and through AI. You know, as long as you test what is coming out of.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Uh, design and, and then compare what wet lab result would be, right? And then animal model results and look at the molecules and realize that we now have, we're creating model, models that are computational models that approximate the results in those existing models that we have been using for forty years.

• 11:41Molly O'Shea?

  In terms of the categories of discovery that even Chai is going after, what, what is their roadmap? Like, what are their goals?

• 11:49Speaker 01

  Well, the roadmap first, um, antibodies. So they're, they've nailed that, they're nailing that. It's, you know, getting better every day, but they're incredibly productive right now, like a hundred times more productive than a lab without them.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  And the next would be peptides and then small molecules. So, and they've, they're already a fairly long way in peptides, nothing that they are ready to show customers yet, but making material progress.

• 12:16Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah. I mean, it's, it's been awesome to see all of this proliferate because I think, and you'll, I mean, I've seen this in the headlines, you see this by the dollars being allocated in different directions for philanthropy or like those kinds of purposes by some of the biggest names like the Zuckerbergs, like they're putting all of their time and attention into life sciences and biotech and biology, all that kind of stuff. Other people are as well, but I think the main narrative out of that is that science will be one of the biggest benefactors of AI and what we're having happen with AI. So as you and the firm are seeing everything shaped with AI, like how, how do you put

• 13:00Molly O'Shea?

  time kind of scales and when to go into this category, when to start researching? And what are the categories that you're looking at?

• 13:08Speaker 01

  I think we, we've always had a diversified strategy in healthcare. And I think there are opportunities, obviously in the payer, provider, um, uh, life sciences and pharma markets. And, um, I think the, the way we're thinking about it now is, you're right, the biggest impact is probably going to be in life sciences and drug creation. Certainly we care about outcomes. And I think those are going to be life-changing outcomes from these, um, tools as well as drugs that come out of them. So I think the, we have been, as I said, looking at AI for a decade in that area and

• 13:51Speaker 01

  felt like we are now at the precipice, we are at a point of real impact. And that's generally when we get involved. I would say you still have, I think, Devoted is such a fascinating example of a company that started ten years ago. And, you know, when you talk about, you know, scaling, power laws, it's interesting because the, what you have to also think about, you're not just the speed of growth, but the defensibility of something, right? And the reality is, is they have created by starting with a Medicare Advantage health

• 14:33Speaker 01

  plan that is very expensive, um, to develop and very difficult to develop against the behemoths that own these markets and including the Blues. And they spent time getting licensed in every state. They spent time getting a provider network in every state, uh, go to market, brokers, go to market, to members. All of that takes tremendous time and energy and dollars. At the same time, they were building their own platform, technology platform, um, that nobody else has done in the payer world. And at the same time, they're building a devoted medical group, which is essentially

• 15:17Speaker 01

  their own primary care network, which is a virtual overlay in managing their patients. But with devoted, you have, um, you, you now have AI enter the picture along with them actually owning the risk and owning the member through the primary care doc and the healthcare system. And they have built over the last year, they've tripled the size of their company. They have halved the amount, their operating ratio. They have dramatically increased their EBITDA.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  And you have a company that is, uh, I would say almost impossible to compete against in the future, and they will be going into commercial in the future. And it is what all of us want, you know? We want somebody who, you know, virtual overlay, thinking about our health in a proactive way, has an AI front end and a doctor behind the AI on the medical care, caregiving side, as well as your insurer. And your member experience is fairly seamless. So in terms of payments and processes, it's just, it's a beautiful thing, I have to say.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Like, it is definitely the most, uh, AI, uh, probably the best example of AI applied to healthcare in the world right now.

• 16:50Molly O'Shea?

  Really?

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:52Molly O'Shea?

  Wow.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm not one that is generally hyperbolic, but this is true.

• 16:58Molly O'Shea?

  Okay, I'll take your word on that. I know, I know you speak from experience. I'm curious, when do you think these legacy institutions will actually take a hit? Will they? Like, does healthcare have a long lag because of how ingrained people are, the lock-in with customers, clients, patients, providers, that kind of thing?

• 17:23Speaker 01

  Like, I think from our, the hospital systems and providers, they're not going anywhere. They don't, I mean, our acute, you know, our hospitals that take care of acute care patients mostly are needed, uh, and we need them to be the best that they can be. And I do feel like we're at the very beginning of a transformation there, um, that will be helped by AI in terms of taking administrative costs and burden off of clinicians so they can focus on patients. And it's probably the first technology that's done that. I mean, electronic health records were the great organizing principle for the data that now can be used by AI.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  And so I, I don't, I don't know how much that changes, but I, I do feel like costs should be lowered because their administrative costs are such a burden on the system. It's, it is twenty-five to thirty percent of all healthcare costs are really administrative. And on the clinical care side, there, there is no question that, you know, AI, I mean, just how many people are using ChatGPT to actually diagnose themselves? It might be better than your doctor. And taking that, you know, one next step and, you know, looking at radiological images, thirty percent of images are read wrong by radiologists, there's something missed.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  And it may, it may not be life-threatening, but sometimes it is. And if you have AI behind that, radiologists making sure that's nothing is missed, I mean, we're not going to eliminate radiologists, we probably need more of them. But the reality is, is that with AI behind it, you're probably not going to miss much.

• 19:07Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  And, and I would want that, you would want that.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  So I, I think there's just going to be so many ways that AI helps, um, in terms of improving care, along with the drugs that it, you know, will be helping to develop faster.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  I think it's also, you think about robotics and AI and vision, you know, these vision models, you're actually going to be able to, a surgeon will only see better than he can now, uh, in terms of, and a robot will ultimately, probably with the aid of a surgeon, see and be able to manipulate things better in your body as they do surgeries. So all of that is changing. I mean, Da Vinci was a, a brute forcing in those compared to what we're going to see now.

• 19:57Molly O'Shea?

  This episode is brought to you by Brex, my favorite. You become what you spend on, and I refuse to spend my time on work that shouldn't exist. Expense reports, receipt chasing, and manual closes. The company is building what's next from Vercel, OpenAI, Anthropic, Granola, and Deepgram. All made the same call, they all run on Brex. Brex is the intelligent finance platform that combines cards, expenses, and banking into a single stack with agentic finance built in. AI agents that handle expenses automatically, enforce policy before spend happens, and close your books in minutes. That's why Sorcery runs on Brex, so I can spend time on building and not busy work.

• 20:41Molly O'Shea?

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• 21:23Molly O'Shea?

  AI needs more than chips. It needs power, land, and infrastructure. Zone develops next generation data center campuses, partnering with AI companies, site developers, and technology leaders to bring compute online faster and at scale. Zone is building the foundation of the AI frontier. Visit zonefrontier.com to learn more. That's zonefrontier.com to learn more. It is still crazy, though. Like, I recently, through a friend, saw like a specialist doctor. I didn't see the doctor, but I was chatting with the doctor. And they do a specialist type of surgery, kind of a thing. And I don't know how this even popped up, but she was like, yeah, I don't think AI is gonna take my job.

• 22:08Molly O'Shea?

  I'm like, what do you mean? Like, whoever said like AI would take your job? You do something that's like completely manual, but like I think a robot and computer vision would definitely help with the time the procedure takes, because you'll be able to do things much faster. Like, maybe it can be automated in some capacity if it's a repetitive function. But I was even surprised to hear that. It's like, I don't, I don't think you're gonna go away entirely. Like, that's just not possible, especially for something like healthcare. You want a human working on you.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  You do want a human working on you. For the most part, yes. And I do think, I mean, just think about the discrepancy between treatment and oncology and rural environments versus if you're close to one of the leading research hospitals, right? The outcomes are dramatically worse in rural communities. And same with surgery, right? Can you get to that surgeon fast enough? Are you going to? Do you have the money to actually get to the hospital where the surgeon has done that, that particular surgery? You know, a thousand times versus somebody who's done it twice in their life. And just think about the ability to remotely direct a surgeon

• 23:17Speaker 01

  or remotely direct a robotics in these environments to, to do surgery that's leading it.

• 23:26Molly O'Shea?

  This might be more of like a macro thought or comment or question, but it is interesting to think that healthcare will be such a positive benefactor of AI, but patients rarely ever know, will know that. Like, they won't know that AI is involved in the process at all because it is like so behind the scenes and in so many different layers. Like, they won't know that, you know, their nurse or their clinician, whoever they're speaking with, has a better day because they're not scribing everything. Or that they have like more access to tools and like they don't have all this like, you know, menial burden on top of them or have harder time of diagnosing something because they have access to these things.

• 24:10Molly O'Shea?

  But like, it is one, it's just a really interesting paradox because it'll be the most positively effective, affected categories. But the person who, by the way, like healthcare affects all of us, we're usually very upset with the outcomes or it's not a good process. Maybe you're in the waiting room for like very long time. Like, it's, it's such a challenging environment that will be greatly affected. For the most part, I would assume. But it, it would be the best place for people to, to know that the, you know, the, the growing negative narrative of AI is actually not bad. Like, it's the only place like you have an opportunity to reset the narrative, but those patients probably won't see it.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  I think the fascinating thing is they will see it in a positive way. They will, their, their clinician will not be behind a laptop now.

• 25:03Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  Right? Will not have their back turned to them while they're inputting data. And so they should actually have a better experience. But you're right. Will they attribute that to AI? Will they know that the diagnosis was actually refined by AI? Will they know ultimately a surgery? And, and you're right, no. But I, I think that's what's gonna be fascinating about AI in general. It is going to, people fear it at some level, they should. But in, I would say in healthcare, it is gonna be extraordinary. And in so ways, in so many parts of our lives, it is going to, it is gonna make our lives better. Right? Augment our lives. I, I mean, I already feel like I'm learning so much, so much faster.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  It's not taking away insight, judgment, it's just educating me as the, the world, you know, moves. Right? It's, it's, you know, I think it should transform education. All these things, right, that are so hard to do and so hard to customize, it can, it can help do that. It's not gonna eliminate teachers. I don't think there's anything better than a great teacher. But the customization of what the teacher is doing for that child, maybe they should be in eighth grade math and not fourth grade math, you know? And they can stay in fourth grade, but also be, you know, being taught in a different way. So I, I think it's, I think the benefits are just gonna be extraordinary to society.

• 26:32Molly O'Shea?

  How has this macro shift, we'll go into the investing lens a bit, but how has a macro shift changed how you evaluate companies? Is there like another item or two that you look for in diligence? And how do you back test, you know, claims? Because I'm sure people are claiming more than they were before.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Well, first, it always starts with the entrepreneur, right? I mean, it really is. It's just like, do you, do you trust that person? Are you inspired by that person? Do you, are they the absolute best person to be talking to this subject and actually creating a company around it? Is there, I would say, intelligence and intent? You know, I've never seen a group of entrepreneurs work harder than this generation of entrepreneurs. It is, it's truly extraordinary. And I think in part, the world is moving so fast. The rate of change is so fast and so great that what change, what is different now is the leveling up of an entrepreneur.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  The people you are backing have to be better than in the past. I mean, not the top point one, you know, percentile, but they have to, there have to be many more entrepreneurs closer to that level in order to build these great companies and compete with all the companies and all the money that, you know, is being created now, all the companies being created. So I, I do think it's just the, everything centers around an entrepreneur. They have to be able to pivot. They have to be able to grow. I think they're more, there are more product oriented and tech oriented, you know, tech led companies now. It's funny because people say, we're not gonna need engineers or these companies. Everything can be done, right, by people who are product oriented.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  But I, I don't think in the first wave that is actually happening. I think the, the, the connectivity, even in healthcare, it's always been about healthcare. One reason devoted, you know, certainly Chai, obviously, CompSci, both have CompSci backgrounds in chemistry and biology and, and devoted the CEO who's had a computer science major from Harvard, you know, and he'd been in healthcare for 30 years, Eddie, Eddie Park and Todd Park, who were founders of Athena Health. And I think right now, you're gonna find that more entrepreneurs are, you know, particularly in, in every industry are product, you know, they're product oriented. And they're learning a new market.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  And so figuring out, like, do they actually understand to go to market? Are they humble enough to get the right people around them, ask the right questions? And then ultimately, a great entrepreneur is a Pied Piper. Like, I have to be excited, right? I have to walk in a room and, you know, when I met Brad Smith or Todd Park or Josh and Jack at Chai, I mean, you walk in the room and you know, in five minutes, you want to back these people.

• 29:32Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  That's just the way it is. You just know they've, they have it. You know, they have that intensity, they have that insight, they have, you know, that intelligence. They just, they're gonna make it happen and they're gonna make it happen with integrity.

• 29:45Molly O'Shea?

  And in many cases, you backed them again. So can you share some of the stories where you've backed founders multiple times?

• 29:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course, you know, we, we do back repeat founders. And I think what I'm most proud of is they choose us to back them again.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  And certainly with, you know, Todd and Eddie at Athena, then Castlight, Todd was one of the founders, even though he went off to the Obama administration. And then, and then devotedly at the Series A. And then Brad Smith, another Harvard guy. I keep trying to back Stanford guys, and I'm always backing Harvard guys.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  And so Brad came, I had been looking, we had been one of the, we had actually invested in the first for-profit hospice company. And I'd been looking for a palliative care model that made sense over 15, 20 years. And, and then Brad came along and he described a palliative care model that was a win-win-win. Win for the patients, win for the payers, and the healthcare system lowered costs. And yet was, you know, and it was a win for the company, but it was a win for the patients and the, and the people who are paying the bills. And that's the perfect triumvirate for healthcare. And so we, I immediately backed him. You know, that was a quick win for him. And then we started the next two companies together, Carebridge and Main Street,

• 31:05Speaker 01

  and ideated for a year on both of them. And we thought it'd be one, but we ended up, they ended up both being really fascinating companies. And I, I think what I said to Brad is like, what do you think I'm doing that's different? And I said, you are building something that nobody else is doing. There's so many me-too companies, there's so many. And I, that was one of the reasons, like in healthcare, we didn't do as much in the valley at one time because somebody starts a company here and there are five other companies here. And the reality was that Brad would start a company, it would be a different model that nobody else was doing. And that made them unique and successful at the end of the day.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  And so we, we backed him three times, all quite successful, called Carebridge to Elevance. And so we love that because it's a durable company that, that has been created, that is working. And, you know, it's strategic, that sometimes can destroy things.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then, I mean, I think those are two of the best examples that we have. And then obviously, I, I think it'll be interesting, you know, Jack and Josh, this may be a company for the ages, because I think they could own a huge piece of the continuum in healthcare and, and drug development and design. And, and they're on their way and they really are, you know, they, they're gonna have a majority soon of the largest pharmaceutical companies working with them in a very deep way. And they're, they're in a

• 32:38Speaker 01

  You know, building mode that is creating emotion because of the, you know, the data that they're working with, the models are evolving and developing faster than anyone else's. And that's, you know, that's the true sign of a, you know, of a company that in AI that it can be differentiated and defensible and durable.

• 32:58Molly O'Shea?

  I think that's a really good point. I'm curious, from your standpoint, what you're seeing, because the players on the board are changing very freak, like, very rapidly. Like, how is the M and A landscape changing? How is the exit landscape changing for healthcare?

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. We're excited because it is broad, it is broadening things. So we've always had, you know, the McKessons and Cardinals and all the payers, mostly like five payers that usually bought things. But, and, you know, provider world, we don't usually buy things. So, you know, and if you create a software company, I mean, it's, you know, like ultimately Athena Republic and, you know, was, was been traded in the PE world, you know, now. So you can create, you can create very positive EBITDA companies. But

• 33:55Speaker 01

  now you have technology, like you actually have software in a world of AI where you have the frontier labs actually interested in moving into these spaces and very hard to create companies embedded in providers, I think, within a, within a lab. But, you know, certainly possible that they could end up wanting to own with 20% of the economy between, you know, pharma, life sciences and, and software and providers. So they may, you know, that may be an opportunity. I mean, Microsoft tried before, you know, and they

• 34:34Speaker 01

  bought Nuance, which is used elsewhere, but Nuance is mostly dedicated to healthcare. So they could go broader and deeper. Many, a lot of these companies could. Oracle, obviously, bought Cerner and they might want to go deeper there. So I just feel like there's, there are many more opportunities than there were before in technology because we are going to not be in a backwater that we have been in technology and in healthcare in the past. We're moving quickly, rapidly into the 21st plus century.

• 35:08Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah. I mean, the main word with M and A is synergy, but how many of these do you think are actual synergies versus, you know, a momentum play?

• 35:19Speaker 01

  I think in the new world, you're also going to have so many companies with valuations where they won't be able to really start these companies. They won't have the embedded expertise. They won't have the very best people to create them and they will have to buy them. And if they want to like, keep expanding their TAM, you know, that's going to be a great way to do it.

• 35:43Molly O'Shea?

  What have been the best case scenarios of a good M and A transaction and onboarding experience?

• 35:52Speaker 01

  I would say, so when healthcare, I would say Carebridge is like the most recent great example that's working extremely well within Elevance and is rolling out. I think they're dramatically expanding the company within the company. So that we're happy and excited about. You know, we've sold companies that are, you know, aggregations before of services. And that's probably easier for service companies to acquire. We've created PBMs in the past that have been acquired and helpful and like the middle market. But

• 36:34Speaker 01

  it, you know, it's, it is hard. We'd say, so, you know, you, they're probably more failures than successes, but that has so much to do with how a, an acquirer treats the people.

• 36:53Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  And retains the people and the talent, or whether it's just a product acquisition and, or a data acquisition, and those can be extremely successful.

• 37:02Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  Right? If you just want product and data, then that's what you're getting. And if you want product to evolve, then you probably need to figure out how to inspire a team or keep them separate to evolve the team.

• 37:17Molly O'Shea?

  It's a very interesting topic, and I only lean into it more because of the recent conversations I've had, and they're across categories. So I did an interview in the Keshe Aurora at Palo Alto Networks. The, he's, well, he's been there in the last like eight years or so. He's done 40 acquisitions. Cyber is a very acquisitive environment.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:36Molly O'Shea?

  You're always trying to

• 37:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:37Molly O'Shea?

  outmaneuver the hackers and the bad actors and that kind of thing. So acquisitions have become a part of that structure to maintain that you're on the edge and like you're working with the best teams. And so he was clear, he was very like, you don't, you don't hear this quite often with CEOs or explaining acquisitions, because some people will just be like, oh, we're acquiring it, we're dominating you, we're the, you know, emperor, we know better. But he was very clear, like, they're the expert. We got to make sure that we retain that and that they know that and we're not better than them. We're acquiring them because they're smarter than us. And so that was a really interesting perspective to hear in

• 38:20Molly O'Shea?

  that category. And then in this recent series we did with Rocket Lab, so now we're in aerospace, went from cybersecurity to aerospace. He's done, I think, seven acquisitions so far, and small to large companies. And he said, there's no such thing as a small acquisition. They're all big. They all take up a fair amount of your time. But yeah, so it's been interesting to hear all of the different, you know, perspectives on what takes place during an acquisition. And I, I lean into this because we're in an acquisitive environment. M and A is certainly become a part of strategy and growth and momentum of what's going on

• 39:04Molly O'Shea?

  in the AI era. Also, these companies are just growing faster than they ever have. So you want to pick them and you want to, you know, make sure it's a good part of your process. Like even small startups are acquiring companies much earlier than they were before. So it's just something that has been like a curious point to dig into a little bit further. Have you been seeing smaller companies make those acquisitions earlier?

• 39:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think from a product perspective, and I would call them more, I think, I guess they're acquisitions, but mergers. Yeah, there are a lot of smaller companies that realize they're a product and not a company.

• 39:39Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 39:40Speaker 01

  And so that, that can work, right? If you inspire people, if you're respecting a team and you're buying, you're basically buying a product and integrating it to what you're doing and empowering those people, then it absolutely works. And I do think tech and product, there's more respect for product within tech companies. So therefore, I think they've generally done that better. I mean, if you, this is interesting, if you look at like analogy of investment banks, there were certain groups, I mean, JPM did that really well. You know, they brought in, they figured out who the best people were, whether it was the JPM or the acquisition, and they made those people the right people.

• 40:24Speaker 01

  There, I think there's a, you know, in the Credit Suisse world, they, they didn't do that well. They actually prioritized the people that were already at the company as opposed to, we're buying a company and they're the best in the world at, you know, lending, debt, credit. And, and yet, and then they disrespected those people and, you know, and did not put them in, you know, senior positions. So why did you buy the company in the first place? Right? And I think it's a matter of, are you really strategic? Do you really care about building the best enterprise? Or are you in a culture of, a political culture

• 41:07Speaker 01

  that is, you know, like interested in maintaining status quo and empire building?

• 41:12Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah, that's a fair point. So we've gone this far, but we haven't really talked about the Oak model. You have a wide investing strategy, a million to $100 million check sizes. So could you explain the evolution of the fund and how you've grown it over time and, you know, the structure of checks and that kind of thing?

• 41:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. So we've always been in early in growth. We were in our past life, Andrea Adams, my co-founder and myself. And so we started, we were early in growth, but we started with a $500 million fund. We wanted to get going quickly, raise that quickly, and deployed it. And I think the model really hasn't changed. The world has changed. So we've gone from the 500 million to now it's 2 billion in the last two funds because the world, there are many more opportunities.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  We, there is more capital required for the companies that are being built now. And we want to be a lifecycle investor. So we'll invest a million, but we often invest that million, sometimes committing 100 million to the company from day one. Or we're doing a seed stage and the expectation is that we'll participate in most rounds. But we're very founder friendly. Like if we have enough ownership of a company and the founder wants, you know, two new investors because those investors are going to be helpful to the company and the best thing for the company, then well, you know, great, then bring two

• 42:54Speaker 01

  new investors in. And we believe they're good partners because having good partners is everything. You know, we all know that a board can destroy a company. It's possible. So we care a lot about that. And so we feel like it's the best of all worlds for entrepreneurs. And it allows us to figure out if we're interested in a particular area, do we invest early or do we invest later? At what stage do we invest? You know, we can invest 10% of our fund in common stocks. So we've done pipes in, you know, in the past, we did it with a company called Psych Solutions, which was in behavioral health. But we, and you know, and they're rampant in biotech life sciences. So we may be, you know, sort of back there

• 43:39Speaker 01

  because you actually get proprietary information in a public company. And then you're investing in so many of these things, particularly in life sciences, or it's really a funding mechanism to be public, not a liquidity event to be public for them. So we, we really, it's all about best entrepreneur, best opportunity in a theme that we like. And it just, we have to have that flexibility. And how the world has changed is I just feel like we have a bar bill world right now of investing. You know, it's the early and seed funds. So they have a place in this world, you know, to be early. Really important part of the ecosystem. And then, you know, to have, we have very late stage money that sort of come back and

• 44:24Speaker 01

  the crossover funds. But you do, I think from a brand perspective, from the ability to, you know, to fund growth companies to be material in that world, like you have to be able to write relatively large checks, or entrepreneurs, like you're not going to be a factor. Like, why do they care? So I think that's, that is an important part of the strategy is to be big enough to be able to write large enough checks, but also to be able to do enough early. And we've always done early. So, you know, it vacillates between 20% of a fund to 40% of a fund early. And if you think about that in our fund, that's

• 45:05Speaker 01

  400 million to 800 million early. And so not insignificant in terms of the early portion of a fund. And pretty important in an environment where valuations, because of the rate of growth is so high, valuations increase so quickly, it's sometimes hard to get in and to get in at a price that you think is right. And I think the inflation in the market is appropriate for 10, I don't know, 5% of these companies are worth the number that they're given, you know, the 10 billion dollar valuations, 20 billion. But there are only so many that actually have a TAM that's that large. And the TAM, because it's not just software, and

• 45:46Speaker 01

  I don't include services, is obviously much larger for many companies. But in general, there are still a lot of these companies that are not going to get past a billion or 2 billion in total value. And so you've got to be cognizant of that. And I think, you know, we're in a period where everything is distorted. Every company is getting probably inflated valuations. And, you know, that'll correct at some point, like it always does. And I just think you've got 10% of the world that's worth it and 90% that's not.

• 46:21Molly O'Shea?

  I mean, that is really interesting. Some people forget that, what was it, 2021, 22, when everybody got cut, like in the private markets by 80%. And the companies are, some of them are still around because they raised so much money that they can continue on, but they have to completely reevaluate. And their pref stack are completely disoriented.

• 46:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. It is, it's so funny. As you look back and like, why, why actually? Like, we look at 2021, sort of, why was it inflated? Why was there rampant? It's interesting. And it was sort of about the digital economy. But obviously, AI is so much more fundamentally different. So much, you know, it's created actually extraordinary opportunities that are unique. I, you know, in my over 30 years of investing, there has nothing been as interesting as this or seminal in terms of creating, just realigning the entire economy.

• 47:19Molly O'Shea?

  Today's episode is sponsored by V C X by Fundrise, the public ticker for private tech, allowing investors of all sizes to invest in venture capital. Learn more at getvcx.com. Some of you may not have heard this yet, but our sponsor, Public, just launched something called Generated Assets. And it brings AI into investing in a way I've honestly never seen before. Here's how it works. You type in an idea like AI-powered supply chain companies with positive free cash flow, or defense tech companies growing revenue over 25% year over year. Public's AI then dispatches a swarm of agents that scan every single US stock, evaluates them, and instantly builds a custom index around your thesis. What really

• 48:02Molly O'Shea?

  stands out is how clearly it explains why each stock is included. And before you invest, you can even backtest your idea against the S and P 500. So you're making decisions with real context, not just guessing. And beyond Generated Assets, Public lets you invest in stocks, bonds, options, crypto, all in one place. They'll even give you an uncapped 1% match when you transfer your investments over from another platform. If you want to build a portfolio that actually reflects your thesis, visit public.com/sorcery. Paid for by Public Investing. Full disclosures in the description. Founders scale faster on Deal. Set up payroll for any country in minutes. Hire anyone, anywhere. Get visas handled fast and get back to building. Visit deal.com/sorcery. That's D E E L dot

• 48:47Molly O'Shea?

  com slash sorcery. So do you think that AI does justify the inflation on valuations? Or do you think?

• 48:58Speaker 01

  I think certainly for, you know, for probably 10% of the market, yes.

• 49:02Molly O'Shea?

  But do you think that like, that actually increases the TAM 10 fold, 100 fold? Like, at what point is your line of rationale and discipline? Like, where does that come in? Where it's just like, okay, this is just getting beyond us. Like to your point, like it can't, the TAM is not even a billion dollars for some part of the economy.

• 49:23Speaker 01

  Enterprise tech, the realists of the world and ERP, they've got a, you know, huge runway. In healthcare, there are markets that have massive runways, pharma, chai, certainly some of the companies like Ambiance and others. But, but a lot of these companies are niche companies that are only going to be so large. And then you're like, who's going to buy this? Who's going to buy, even if it's AI applied to a TPA software company? They're going to buy it on EBITDA. You know, like, who's going to buy this? Like, you know, it's going to be ultimately maybe incredibly profitable. But like, I don't know why some random tech company would buy this for some strategic multiple. And I think we have always

• 50:07Speaker 01

  done, when we look at what companies are going public at and finance at, we've generally been able to sell things at like a 30% strategic multiple because there is some strategic element to a strategic buyer.

• 50:21Molly O'Shea?

  And some of these companies will live long enough to see themselves as a NeoCloud.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 50:26Molly O'Shea?

  I'm curious, so we didn't talk too much about the newer part of the portfolio. I know we talked about Real It, we talked about Chai, but, and we talked about Devoted as some of the key companies, but Halkuminate is a company that's like well on your radar and is like a core position now, right?

• 50:48Speaker 01

  Uh, yes.

• 50:49Molly O'Shea?

  So can you talk through Halkuminate?

• 50:52Speaker 01

  We love these founders, Jerry's amazing. So this is, it's interesting, it's horizontal, but it's also relevant to our sector and our expertise. So it's a reinforcement learning environment. The customer for creating agents, these agents are creating financial and economic models and basically mimicking environments.

• 51:19Speaker 01

  And their customers are the, the large labs and they're, they're training effectively. So it's a reinforcement model where they're, they're, they're looking at things like what a financial analyst does in an investment environment. And it's not just how, what are the keystrokes on the spreadsheets? So it is looking at the financial elements, it's looking at how you get to the investment summary, how do you get to a recommendation, your scorecards? How do you think about the legal work applied to it? So they're creating a whole financial environment and then a simulated environment that then one can use to test.

• 52:03Speaker 01

  And obviously these agents ultimately are going to be used by financial entities or anyone, any corporate enterprise that has, is evaluating investments. In one case, they've actually created a simulation, but for an entire real estate broker. So you could, you know, you could test out a new business model with it and figure out like what's working, what's not working, because it's effectively a real estate broker. And how would that, you know, how would that actually work? And what would be the best way to put the pieces of this business together? So it's, it's kind of, it's exciting and they've gone from like zero to 60 in six

• 52:47Speaker 01

  months and, and you know, we think it's on an incredible trajectory and it's very, very interesting, horizontal, but you know, applicable to our markets.

• 52:57Molly O'Shea?

  How'd you guys come across them?

• 52:59Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, just networking, talking to people, you know, YC, talking to others. And I think they, the nice thing is they found us because of the financial services expertise and, and some of the customers, you know, obviously we're, we are embedded with many of these labs and they know about us and recommended us too, so.

• 53:20Molly O'Shea?

  Another one of these companies is Augur. So what is Augur and how did you guys get involved?

• 53:25Speaker 01

  Augur, so Augur is, we have an amazing talent function at Oak and it's really embedded in our investment strategy and they are identifying people every day that we should be talking to who are great entrepreneurs, great talent, whether it's in, you know, existing large legacy companies, whether it's in, you know, new entrepreneurs, whether it's 20 year olds that are dropping out of college.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  And so they actually introduced us to Dave Clark, the CEO. We ideated with him for a very long time. His background and his team are from Amazon. He for 22 years built up the entire supply chain, all logistics at Amazon.

• 54:09Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  And then ran e-commerce. He's rather famous in that world.

• 54:12Molly O'Shea?

  I, I know his name for sure.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, he's incredible. His team's incredible. And so, you know, at first, honestly, he wanted to buy a company or buy a majority of a company, do more of a PE play. And he soonly was cured of that and decided to start an AI supply, you know, it's basically orchestration layer, data insights, the operational layer for, for supply chain and logistics and what they're doing. And they now have something like eight clients and these are all major, you know, Fortune 500 companies. And I, and what they're doing is not just providing insights, providing agents that

• 54:58Speaker 01

  are actually then executing on the insights throughout their entire supply chain. And I think the amazing thing to me was we all know the supply chain broke during COVID, but we thought people, that all these companies, these major companies had very sophisticated supply chain, software analytics were driving them. And then you get into these companies, you're like, holy shit, you know, like what were you doing? How did you, you know, like how were you managing this? And why was the supply chain so seamless for so long? Cause if anything, you know, so many things went awry and they're, I think it really raised the issue in executives' minds about like, what are we doing with supply chain?

• 55:40Speaker 01

  Like when things change, they really couldn't, they couldn't adapt quick enough. And so this is like real time analytics on everything that's going on in your supply chain and then an agent that could actually act on it, you know, immediately. And that's just something that is, you know, we don't know anybody else that's doing that in the way that they're doing it. So really excited about that. We're kind of in the second year of life with, you know, real revenues, real accounts and real results. And so this should, this is a company that's going to scale and, and that's a company that we, when Dave came in, we know like he's got a big team, expensive team, a lot they needed to do quickly and we committed a hundred million dollars to them upfront.

• 56:24Molly O'Shea?

  Damn.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:25Molly O'Shea?

  Wow. How often is it that you're helping build these companies and start them from the very idea?

• 56:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's been, it's probably 15% of what we do, you know, different and different funds. Like sometimes you're seeing more early, that's great. You don't feel the need or desire to, or you know, find the great entrepreneurs. But I think in general, we've done that, we've done a number of buildups where you, you know, you buy, like in the whole value-based world, you know, we've, a company called Kurana, you know, where we've bought a company and, and then we like built around it across the US and Infusion for Health, you know, this is a thing where we, we've started Infusion,

• 57:10Speaker 01

  ambulatory infusion centers all over the country. And sometimes you buy and sometimes you build. So this is a whole, you know, build process where we've committed material dollars from day one with them.

• 57:21Molly O'Shea?

  So as we close out, Annie Lamont. Yes. What are you most looking forward to in the next 12 months?

• 57:26Speaker 01

  The thing that always excites me and that I always look forward to in this job is just meeting the next great entrepreneur. It's just, there's something just so inspiring when you see it and they're always educating you. And I think the reason I love this business and I'm still so engaged in it is I'm a lifelong learner and you know, like this isn't, I've never learned so much so fast in my entire life. You know, if you think about how we had to learn biotech and life sciences years ago, it was like books or like showing up, getting professors to talk to me. You know, now it's like, this is like using AI, I can learn about anything and everything so quickly. And then, you know, what, what's amazing about meeting with entrepreneurs, and this

• 58:09Speaker 01

  is why they're entrepreneurs and we're the investors, is they're dreaming up this next new company. So it's just that incredible education process and then obviously the fun of working with your, the great entrepreneurs you have and watching them grow and learn and have their companies grow and, you know, face challenges and then feeling the satisfaction of helping them rise above those challenges. I mean, it's just, it's just amazing profile. It's just an amazing career.

• 58:38Molly O'Shea?

  I love that. It's a great answer. I haven't had many answers that are like a process, a way of life, but like you just genuinely love the job and the role that you play.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  I do, I love it.

• 58:49Molly O'Shea?

  So with 40 years of investing, I have to ask you, this is our Brex Performance Question, they're a partner of ours. So Brex is all about spending smarter, moving faster. But I'm curious for you, across your career, I like to think that performance really leans into who you surround yourself with or who's been a motivational factor. It could be like someone stoic and like very wide reaching, but, or it could be someone you've directly learned from. But who are those people for you who's kept you motivated along the way?

• 59:22Speaker 01

  I think when I, when I first started my career, I was more focused on thesis and less focused on the great entrepreneur. And even though people, and I see this over and over again, actually with, as we're training people in our shop and teaching them to be investors, it's so easy to get excited about ideas or even, even numbers, you know, looking at a company, oh, it's growing from zero to 10, you know, it must be great.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  It started with people every time and I, there was an individual who was the greatest retail investor ever, Jerry Gallagher, who we had and it was, you know, Dick's Sporting Goods and PetSmart and, you know, just a whole Office Depot. I mean, you could just tell them on the line. I mean, it was just like incredible. And had been a manager himself and he said, he said to me, and it's always great when people are direct and honest, you are not, the bar for your entrepreneurs is not high enough. And that was very early in my career and it was incredibly important. And I just, that, it just stuck with me. So, and then along the way, I mean, and so I'm inspired every day by entrepreneurs. They have the hardest job ever.

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  So, you know, I'm totally genuine in saying that I remain excited because I'm learning all the time and it could be from an experienced entrepreneur and it could be like now I'm learning more from 25 year olds. It's insane. So it's, it's so fun. So, and then, and then I, I'm so lucky because I have Andrew Adams as my partner and we are, you know, calling my work husband. I mean, we are, we are, we are not the same person. We, we almost always come to the same conclusion, talking it through, but it is incredible to have a partner who you respect so much, who is, is just somebody you can work every

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  problem through with and you feel great and, and, and we're, we're learning from each other all the time.

• 1:01:21Molly O'Shea?

  Brings a lot of energy.

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:24Molly O'Shea?

  Well, Annie, it was a pleasure. Thank you so much. You're like so much fun to talk to. You're very eloquent, you explain things out very well. You have like a dense set of knowledge, not many people do. So thank you so much for joining us.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  That was fun. I, I was excited to do it with you, Molly.

• 1:01:40Molly O'Shea?

  Awesome, cool. Hey, it's Molly. If you enjoy our interviews, check out our newsletter, sorcery.vc, where we deliver a once a week top deals and tech headlines email and also go deeper on our podcast interviews. Subscribe to Sorcery today and don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen. Link in description to sign up.