Pod Insights Song Exploder Le Tigre - Deceptacon About this episode Le Tigre originally formed in 1998. They released their self-titled debut album in October 1999. Spin Magazine called it one of the best albums of the past 30 years, and Pitchfork called it one of the best albums of the 90s. I listened to that album a lot when it came out, and 25 years later, I still hear songs from it everywhere, on TV and in movies, and just out in the world – especially the song “Deceptacon.” For this episode, I talked to Kathleen Hanna and Johanna Fateman from Le Tigre about how they wrote it, and how they put the track together.
For more, visit songexploder.net/le-tigre https://songexploder.net/le-tigre.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Hrishikesh Hirway? You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and, piece by piece, tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishi Kesh Hirway.
0:11 Hrishikesh Hirway? You might have heard me say that Song Exploder is part of Radiotopia from PRX, and I wanted to explain what that means and how it connects to you. PRX is a public media nonprofit, so they're focused on supporting work that serves the public interest. And they started Radiotopia as a way to empower independent podcast makers like me. Here on Song Exploder, we try to book artists from a really wide range of music and backgrounds and ideas, and we spend a long time editing together each episode. I think that's what makes the show special, but it's not a great formula if you're trying to maximize profit. But I've been able to keep this show going despite that because of the support of Radiotopia and listeners like you. Radiotopia sells ads for the show, but those come and go,
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1:18 Hrishikesh Hirway? Thanks to Stio for sponsoring Song Exploder. I took a trip to Iceland this summer, and because it was the summer, I didn't really think about dressing for the cold. Even though I was hiking and I was planning on seeing some glaciers, I thought, it's August. But then I got there, and I realized I made a huge mistake. Now, though, I have a Stio hometown hooded jacket, and I just wished I'd gotten it before my trip. All of Stio's clothes are designed and tested in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, by locals who live, work, and ski in below-freezing temperatures. I'm headed back out into the cold this winter, but now I'll have my insulated hooded Stio jacket. Ski season's almost here, so gear up now, the way the locals do.
2:02 Hrishikesh Hirway? Go to stio.com/songexploder for 20% off your order. That's S-T-I-O dot com slash songexploder. Stio dot com slash songexploder. Stio, designed and tested in Jackson Hole. There's a new podcast called Before the Moment with Nile Rodgers. In every legendary music career, there's a moment right before it all changes. And in every episode of this podcast, Nile Rodgers talks to a legendary musician about the choices, the events, and the relationships that shaped their career before the moment that everything changed for them. Every story is unique and opens a window into the lives of some of the biggest names in music.
2:45 Hrishikesh Hirway? And Nile is the perfect person to lead these conversations. Because for over 50 years, he's played guitar with artists like Diana Ross, David Bowie, Madonna, Daft Punk, and Beyoncé. In the first season of the podcast, some of Nile's guests include John Legend, Miguel, and more. New episodes are coming out every other Tuesday. Listen to Before the Moment with Nile Rodgers wherever you get your podcasts. This episode contains explicit language.
3:16 Hrishikesh Hirway? Could I just get you to introduce yourself?
3:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm Kathleen Hanna from the bands Bikini Kill and La Tigra. I also did a solo record called The Julie Ruin, and I'm really happy to be here.
3:27 Hrishikesh Hirway? Before we get into La Tigra, I wanted to ask you about Bikini Kill and The Julie Ruin. I thought it might be helpful to have some context as to how you got to La Tigra. Because all three of these projects have kind of really different, distinct sounds.
3:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, because Bikini Kill is kind of a really typical four-person punk band.
3:56 Speaker 01 I was the lead singer, and we were very associated with feminist punk. And it became actually really kind of an albatross, because it was like, just constant criticism. There was a lot of like, "You're a sellout because you played with the Go-Go's, and it was sponsored by Michelob or whoever, and you're not doing feminism right." And then the constant chorus of "You're a man-hater." It got really exhausting after seven years. And we hadn't really dealt with our relationships with each other because we were constantly dealing with pressures from the outside world. And the band was kind of not practicing. And I just wanted to be a person in a band making music. Like, gosh, can't I just write some songs already?
4:36 Speaker 01 And so our friend Slim Moon, he loaned me a sampler and I had gotten a dramatics drum machine. I used those two things to start recording on my four-track cassette player. And it was very freeing.
4:52 Hrishikesh Hirway? LaTigra originally formed in 1998. They released their self-titled debut in October 1999. Spin Magazine called it one of the best albums of the past 30 years, and Pitchfork called it one of the best albums of the 90s. I listened to that album a lot when it came out. And 25 years later, I still hear songs from it everywhere, on TV and in movies and just out in the world, especially the song "Deceptacon." For this episode, I talked to Kathleen Hanna and Johanna Fateman from LaTigra about how they wrote it and how they put the track together.
5:43 Hrishikesh Hirway? I was wondering if you could tell me about going from a band in a sort of traditional rock setup to being like, I'm gonna make stuff with samplers and drum machines, beyond just wanting to make music on your own. How did you decide that these were the kinds of tools that you would use?
5:59 Speaker 01 I was really influenced by this guy who put out this record, Land of Loops, and also Atari Teenage Riot. They were mixing punk with electronic music in a way that I found really interesting. So having the drum machine, which my then-boyfriend saw at a record store and was like, "This thing's worth so much money and it's only $40. You have to buy it." And I was like, "Oh," it was kind of a fluke. And then as soon as I got it, I was like, "Oh, I put the snare here, the hi-hat here," you know? I just immediately started singing along to it.
6:51 Hrishikesh Hirway? Can you tell me about how you went from The Julie Ruin to La Tigra? How did other people get involved in your project?
6:58 Speaker 01 I moved away from Olympia and eventually I made my way to New York in like 1998. And my friend, really good friend Johanna Fateman, who had been my roommate for a while, many years before, was in New York. She's an art critic now and she writes books. And she's just like one of the smartest people I know and she has the best taste. And she was messing around with electronic music in her apartment. And I was like, oh.
7:24 Speaker 02 My name's Johanna Fateman. I am a member of the band La Tigra.
7:30 Hrishikesh Hirway? I would love to start by asking you what you might remember about the first conversation you had with Kathleen about even starting a band.
7:38 Speaker 02 Well, Kathleen and I were in a band before La Tigra when we lived in Portland together. We were in this band called The Troublemakers. So we had played music together a little bit.
7:48 Speaker 01 But yeah, it started that we were going to recreate The Julie Ruin. Because, you know, I did this record and I want to try to tour it.
7:56 Speaker 02 And I was like, yeah, I'll go on tour. We can figure out how to like reverse engineer those songs to perform them live. And so I had begun to sample things from The Julie Ruin record, but it was very difficult to reverse engineer the music.
8:12 Speaker 01 And we were trying to do it and we just couldn't. And so we started writing new songs.
8:17 Speaker 02 La Tigra began right after I graduated from art school. And definitely the kind of art I was interested in was conceptual. I was a punk and into punk music. And I think the way those things dovetailed was that I was not interested in virtuosity of any kind. And I wasn't interested in being good at playing an instrument. So I think that was cool about our approach to songwriting. It was never about like being good at something. It was about having good ideas and being good at thinking things through and, you know, expressing ourselves. And I thought that was punk.
8:55 Speaker 01 It was so great to have kind of a partner in crime. Both of us did not have a lot of money. You know, we were trying to scrape by in New York. So we used really old outdated equipment that people just gave us or we found on the street.
9:09 Hrishikesh Hirway? Can you tell me how Deceptacon first got started?
9:12 Speaker 01 So I was in this apartment. By myself and I had by that time gotten an eight-track reel to reel Tascam with quarter inch tape and I'd brought it with me to New York and set it up on a table. And then I had my drum machine and a guitar and just laid down the most simple drum track ever. And that's how I would kind of work is I would sometimes I'd use just the same drum beat thinking replace it later, you know, and just speed it up and slow it down. And just put it on like five different songs at once.
9:52 Hrishikesh Hirway? Almost like it's a more fun version of a metronome.
9:55 Speaker 01 Exactly. And I would just play guitar until I found something I liked and then play it over and over. So with Deceptacon, it was just a simple beat and then like.
10:15 Speaker 01 That was it. That was the guitar riff. I just sang over that. I just had all this stuff in my head to get out and I also had these melodies and a lot of the lyrics were dummy lyrics because it was a throwaway song. It wasn't something that I was like, this is great. You know what I mean? It was like I did like four other songs after that and I was doing it all on the floor. That's the thing I really remember. The apartment had really disgusting carpet. But I got a practice space with Johanna and we brought the eight-track there and I would play her these beginnings of songs and then she would make comments and notes.
10:51 Speaker 02 And I think that she came to one of our meetings with that song, not like structured and polished and totally finished, but she had the top line melody.
11:01 Hrishikesh Hirway? What was your first reaction when you heard the thing that she played you?
11:04 Speaker 02 I knew it was great and I knew it would be the first song on our record.
11:10 Hrishikesh Hirway? Really?
11:11 Speaker 02 Yeah, it had that like kickoff energy that I feel bridged Bikini Kill and La Tigra, the rage and sort of the rasery lyrics, but with that repetitive, simple guitar line, it felt more La Tigra.
11:36 Speaker 01 You know, she's like, oh, let's put all these guitar parts that you have on the sampler.
11:41 Speaker 02 The first piece of equipment I had was actually an Ensonic Mirage, which is a sampler keyboard that I bought off the street.
11:48 Speaker 01 She put it on all the keys and started playing it.
11:51 Speaker 02 So like that riff, she would like play it like fast. And then we would like use the keys to pitch it. And then, of course, the lower it gets, the more stretched out it gets and the longer it gets. And we wanted a long sample because we wanted to fill a whole bar or two bars. So we'd kind of stretch the sound as far as we could.
12:13 Hrishikesh Hirway? Okay, let me play that.
12:19 Hrishikesh Hirway? Okay, so that's actually not what she played originally. That's pitched and slowed down version of it, played on a different key.
12:28 Speaker 02 Exactly, and it's 8-bit. 8-bit was like kind of junky and bad even back then. So that sample just has this like funny quality that had to do with kind of the quirks of the machine.
12:42 Speaker 01 There was a lot of weird problems with the equipment, but we, you know, always would get the manuals and figure it out. And I remember we both went to this thing about glitch music, which was like big back at the time. And it was all these guys talking about this intricate process that they went through to like pull the plug on their computer and we'd get this certain sound. And we were kind of like giggling because it was so ridiculous. And it reminded me of, I went to a major label office one time and I saw them trying to recreate the fancying look on a computer. And I was like, just get scissors and paste, like a glue stick, and then just do it. It's like, just use your hands, right? And so it was kind of that same vibe of like, these guys are going through all this like crazy,
13:26 Speaker 01 expensive equipment to like make mistakes. And like, Late Tevere was all about making mistakes. Like, it was all about making a mistake and then being like, I love what that mistake sounds like. Let's make it more.
13:42 Speaker 01 The typical way that I worked at that time was to do dummy lyrics. I'd heard the demo of Michael Jackson doing Billie Jean and was really, really inspired by hearing him do dummy lyrics. And I'd seen Kim Gordon do it when I'd visited her. And I had done it sometimes on tour with Bikini Kill. We would go out with instrumentals and I would write the songs every night, like live. I would do them different every night. And then when we had to record, I would have to pick what the lyrics were.
14:13 Hrishikesh Hirway? What's one of the dummy lyrics that ended up becoming a real lyric?
14:17 Speaker 01 I'm pretty sure the beginning was the beginning. I'm pretty sure, "Every day at night, every day at night, I can see your disco disco dick."
14:36 Speaker 01 I, at the time, had been hanging out with professional musicians. My boyfriend was in the Beastie Boys, which are Beastie Boys, not the Beastie Boys, was in Beastie Boys. And I was sort of like learning about the industry and I was hanging out with Joan Jett and her manager Kenny Laguna. He was in Tommy James and the Shondells. He played keyboards for the Shangri-Las. And it was literally something Kenny had just said to me. And he was like, you know, these rock guys, you know, in the 70s, they're doing their rock thing. It's like, everything they care about is all they care about. But then two weeks later, they're stuck in the disco dick. And Kenny was kind of, I think, referring to that kind of thing, where there's a lot of people in the industry that they just
15:20 Speaker 01 follow whatever the trend is. I didn't understand that because I really came at music as like a way to save my own life and to process trauma and, and stuff like that. And I was also coming from a place where, you know, I felt like my band had had a big cultural effect, not just on the punk scene, but beyond that. And so it was really frustrating to sometimes look around and see ads on TV for a makeup. And it was like, "Revolutionary mascara."
15:52 Speaker 02 And it felt like this whole girl power thing was being stripped of any actual content. And it was just a way to sell products. There was no feminism involved. There was nothing behind it.
16:05 Hrishikesh Hirway? Yeah.
16:06 Speaker 02 So I wrote this angry song about who took the bump? Who took the joy out of music? Who took the soul out of music? Who took the ideas out of music? You bought a new band the first year of your band. You're cool and I hardly wanna say not because I'm so bored. They all be entertained even by a stupid fuck in a linoleum floor. Linoleum floor. Your lyrics are dumb like a linoleum floor. Oh, walk on it. Oh, walk all over you. Walk on it, walk on it, walk on war too.
16:42 Hrishikesh Hirway? There's this other layer that I have of Mirage.
16:51 Hrishikesh Hirway? How did you make that sound?
16:53 Speaker 02 Okay, so yeah, I played that keyboard part and that is the same sample.
16:58 Hrishikesh Hirway? It's the same as this one?
17:00 Speaker 02 Yeah.
17:00 Hrishikesh Hirway? And so you're just basically pressing and releasing the key really quickly? So it only plays the first note of the sample?
17:07 Speaker 02 Well, if you listen, I think it's actually getting a couple of notes in there. Like that chirpy chattery sound is multiple notes.
17:19 Hrishikesh Hirway? Yeah, wow, that's awesome.
17:22 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, when we were just like practicing it, playing around, we were just like, oh, that sounds good. Like, it wasn't even something we were unhappy with or felt like we were compromised with. You know what I mean?
17:34 Hrishikesh Hirway? Yeah.
17:35 Speaker 02 And then we started putting drum machines on it.
17:40 Speaker 02 The beat was made on a HR16B Elisis drum machine. I went to just like a used music store in Manhattan and was like, what's your least expensive drum machine? And they were kind of hesitant to sell me the Elisis because they're just like, this is not, you know, cool.
18:04 Hrishikesh Hirway? So what made you want that one then? If they were saying this one isn't cool?
18:07 Speaker 02 I mean, that just sort of increased its allure for me because I was like, I want the thing that that nobody wants. We wanted the drums to be kind of the chaotic dance energy.
18:21 Hrishikesh Hirway? I love how gnarly the claps are.
18:26 Speaker 02 That's actually not from the drum machine. I believe that's sampled.
18:31 Speaker 02 It's like kind of a third layer thrown in there.
18:35 Hrishikesh Hirway? That makes sense. Yeah, because you can hear like the ghost of other sounds.
18:38 Speaker 02 Yeah, exactly. It's very dirty.
18:43 Speaker 01 And so she added that. She helped add the structure and then we put the breakdown in.
18:55 Speaker 01 At the time, a lot of rap records that we liked would start with a hook. And we were like, kind of obsessed with this idea of like, not waiting until you're all the way in the song. And it was right when your tracks were being available online and people would listen to them for 10 seconds. And if they didn't like it, they just would pass by it. And that was why a lot of people back then were putting kind of their best idea at the beginning because then people will be like, wait, what is this? You know? And so we started with a breakdown and then the breakdown came back two more times.
19:26 Hrishikesh Hirway? Yeah, it's funny to hear you call it a breakdown because in my head, that's the chorus.
19:31 Speaker 01 It is. It turned into the chorus, but it's like, if you listen to it, there's only pretty much drums and vocal.
19:45 Speaker 01 And it felt like that's what the song was about. To me, it really expressed like who sucked the life out of, out of music.
19:54 Speaker 01 I mean, the answer is capitalism, but you know, maybe I'll write that song later.
20:04 Hrishikesh Hirway? My conversation with Kathleen Hanna and Johanna Fatman continues after this.
20:10 Hrishikesh Hirway? This episode is sponsored by LinkedIn. Anyone who's ever had to spend money on marketing knows how tricky it can be to feel like you've spent that money wisely. Well, with LinkedIn Ads, you can be sure that you'll get a great return on your investment. You can target your campaigns by company, industry, job title, and more. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn Ads and get a $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com/songexploder. That's LinkedIn.com/songexploder. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is sponsored by the podcast What It's Like to Be. Do you ever think about what other people's workdays look like?
20:53 Hrishikesh Hirway? Satisfying some of that curiosity is the idea at the heart of bestselling author Dan Heath's podcast, which is called What It's Like to Be. In each episode, Dan interviews someone from a different profession to find out what it's like to be a professional Santa Claus, or a Secret Service agent, or a long-haul truck driver, or an aerospace engineer at NASA, just to name a few examples. The show gives you an insider view into all kinds of jobs from a wide range of industries, answering questions like, what do mail carriers learn about us from our mail? There are so many jobs out there that exist only as titles in our imagination, if they even register that much. This show is a chance to reach beyond what you know or think you
21:37 Hrishikesh Hirway? know. If you're curious to learn more about the work lives of other people, check out What It's Like to Be, wherever you get podcasts.
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22:18 Hrishikesh Hirway? And so where did the song go from there? From your practice space, where was the next place you took it?
22:23 Speaker 01 We built a box out of other boxes that we found in an alley. And we wrapped up the 8-track in a bunch of clothes and we taped it. And we put it on a Greyhound bus to North Carolina because it was the cheapest way to ship stuff. You could literally put something on a bus. And then our collaborator, our friend, Chris Daimy, who was going to record it in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, went and picked it up. So we dumped everything off the tape onto Pro Tools. And then we were able to add little bits and bobbles then in the studio.
22:59 Hrishikesh Hirway? I kind of can't imagine how stressful it must have been to ship an 8-track like that.
23:04 Speaker 01 It was just funny because it's like summer and we're like on the subway with it. And then we're like at the bus station. Like, there was a lot of legwork in that band that was like really kind of wild.
23:16 Hrishikesh Hirway? So how did you end up working with Chris? How did you decide that that would be somebody that you would record with?
23:21 Speaker 01 I made the Julie Ruin record in Olympia. And then I went to a mastering place in Portland, Oregon. And I had a really bad experience. The guys didn't listen to me at all. I had all these really kooky notes that I wrote in my own notation that I brought. And I really knew what I wanted it to sound like. And then the, you know, icing on the cake was when one of them said, can you go get us coffee? And I hated what it sounded like and I wasn't going to put it out. I was like, oh, well, I just wasted, you know, a year of my life. I just sort of put it away. And, you know, I was going through the depression of leaving Bikini Kill. And so I was in North Carolina. And then someone told me like, oh, you know, Chris Daimy lives here.
24:04 Speaker 01 And I was like, whoa, the guy from the DBs has like a recording studio? Like, that sounds really cool. And so I remastered it with him and it was awesome. It was such a great experience. It was completely opposite of the one I had before. Chris is one of the reasons I'm still making music. Because had I not gone back and tried again and had a really great experience, I don't know if I would have been so excited about writing all these new songs. So I had that in the back of my head of like, ooh, what will Chris do with this?
24:45 Speaker 01 It's sung in a really specific register.
24:49 Speaker 01 It's really high, which like, it doesn't maybe sound like, you know, Diana Ross high, but it's like, it's squirrely. It's up in the squirrel register.
24:58 Speaker 04 You want what you want, but you don't wanna be on your knees. Who does your, who does your hair?
25:07 Speaker 01 You know, I learned that from musical theater as a kid, how to project my voice. And then I used it in punk because when I first started, sometimes I wouldn't even have a monitor. So it was really important that I sang loud so I could hear myself.
25:20 Speaker 04 Wanna disco, wanna see me disco? Let me hear you deeper, little sad moron. One, two, three, four.
25:30 Hrishikesh Hirway? There's so many hooks in the song.
25:32 Speaker 01 It's a hook sandwich.
25:33 Hrishikesh Hirway? Yeah.
25:34 Speaker 01 I mean, we weren't specifically thinking like, create a hook here, or create a hook there. It was more like, oh, this part's catchy. Let's do it again. So it wasn't, you know, like rocket science or anything. It was just like, oh, that, that sounds cool. Let's put that in another place.
25:48 Speaker 04 It's alright, alright, alright, alright, alright.
26:00 Speaker 01 So when Deceptacon became a thing, it was such a shock to us that people really glommed onto that song.
26:07 Hrishikesh Hirway? And have you felt keenly aware of the lasting power of that song too? Because I still hear it everywhere.
26:14 Speaker 01 Okay, so here's the thing that was really cool for me about that song is our friends, Howie and Miguel. Miguel was a choreographer and dancer and he made up a dance. And he came over to my place. Someone brought a video camera and we hung up a sheet as a backdrop. And Miguel and his roommate, Howie, wore these pantsuits and they made these funny hats and they did the dance. And that was the video, which, you know, cost like $30 to make. And so we just like shot it and it was like a one shot. They just did the dance. We played the track. We put it out. And then, years later, someone was like, do you know that people are doing like
26:58 Speaker 01 the Deceptacon dance at weddings? And I was like, what? So I went on YouTube and it was like, people were doing it flash mob when flash mobs were a thing. People were imitating it at talent shows. People would get up at parties, like a group of like 20 people and do it. So it became kind of this like YMCA of electro clash, you know? And that was really great because it was like, people were participating in the song. They weren't just consuming it. They were like, learning the dance. It was like lowbrow single ladies, you know? I remember one of my favorite ones was these two girls who were, must have been like 13, doing it in the garage at their house.
27:41 Speaker 01 And then you could hear like their parents like banging on the door, like, what are you doing in there? And I was like, this is the, like, my proudest moment. Kids being kooky together and creative together. And it was like, really lovely to be a part of that. And this, we weren't really a part of it, but we were the soundtrack to it. So to be a soundtrack to people's regular lives and things they do in their regular life, that was, to me, the life of the song that like, I never could have imagined that made me really, really happy.
28:12 Speaker 01 LaTigra is going to go on tour again next summer, so it feels really lovely and beautiful to have young people come out and see LaTigra for the first time because part of my goal was like, we wanted to put on a show that if there's one 15-year-old girl there who's like, what the hell? Because it's like video and dancing and costumes and the whole thing. And like, we really go the full way on it to give this like, kind of weird feminist present to a kid who maybe hasn't experienced that. I don't know, it's just the best, the best.
28:51 Hrishikesh Hirway? And now, here's Deceptacon by LaTigra, in its entirety.
29:20 Speaker 04 Every day and night, every day and night I can see your little sky, little sky You can suck my heart out of my mind I'm out of time, I'm out of fucking time I'm a gasoline car, with a gasoline mind Wanna disco, wanna see me disco Let me hear you people in the side, my run One, two, three, four You got one too bad, asking for it So I'm gonna be free, and I'm gonna say real soon Everything you think and everything you feel is alright, alright, alright, alright, alright
30:14 Speaker 04 I take you home, and I want to get you hot You're just a gutter, and you're screaming and you're shouting Oh, crack it, please, oh, crack it, please You want what you want, but you don't wanna be I don't need you, does that, does that your head?
30:44 Speaker 04 Here takes the bump and the bump and bump and bump Here takes the ram and the ram a lama ding dong Here takes the bump and the bump and bump and bump Here takes the ram and the ram a lama ding dong
31:08 Speaker 04 You're cool and I hardly wanna say no because I'm so bored and I'm being turned into my stupid book in an alien world, an alien world your lyrics are just like an alien book oh walk on in, oh walk on in for you walk on in, walk on in, walk on for two two, two, two, two He checked the bomb from the bomb, la la la He checked the red from the red, la la ding dong He checked the bomb from the bomb, la la la He checked the red from the red, la la ding dong See you later
31:51 Speaker 04 See you later
31:54 Hrishikesh Hirway? See you later
31:58 Hrishikesh Hirway? See you later To learn more, visit songexploder.net You'll find links to buy or stream Deceptacon And you can watch the music video that has the dance that Kathleen Hannah was talking about
32:11 Hrishikesh Hirway? This episode was produced by Craig Ely, Theo Balcom, Kathleen Smith, Mary Dolan, and myself Our production assistant is Tiger Biscup The episode artwork is by Carlos Larma And I made the show's theme music and logo Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts You can learn more about our shows at radiotopia.fm You can sign up for my newsletter on the Song Exploder website And you can also follow me and Song Exploder on Instagram And you can get a Song Exploder t-shirt at songexploder.net/shirt I'm Rishi K. Shirway Thanks for listening
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