Key Change: Sophie Thatcher on Elliott Smith

Key Change is a new conversation series within Song Exploder, where I talk to fascinating people about the music that's transformed them. My first guest is Sophie Thatcher https://www.instagram.com/soapy.t/, an actor and musician whose credits include starring in the TV show Yellowjackets, the film Heretic, and the new movie Companion https://www.imdb.com/title/tt26584495/. I met Sophie through Companion, because I composed the score to the film, and she contributes vocals to a few of the tracks I wrote. For this episode, we discussed how "Waltz #1" by Elliott Smith shaped Sophie's tastes and work. For more, visit songexploder.net/keychange https://songexploder.net/keychange. You can listen to "Waltz #1" by Elliott Smith here. https://song.link/us/i/1474992211

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Hrishikesh Hirway?

  You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and piece by piece, tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishi Kesh Hirway. You might have heard me say that Song Exploder is part of Radiotopia from PRX, and I wanted to explain what that means and how it connects to you. PRX is a public media nonprofit, so they're focused on supporting work that serves the public interest. And they started Radiotopia as a way to empower independent podcast makers like me. Here on Song Exploder, we try to book artists from a really wide range of music and backgrounds and ideas, and we spend a long time editing together each episode. I think that's what

• 0:40Hrishikesh Hirway?

  makes the show special, but it's not a great formula if you're trying to maximize profit. But I've been able to keep this show going despite that because of the support of Radiotopia and listeners like you. Radiotopia sells ads for the show, but those come and go, and nothing is as reliable as the listeners who believe in what we're doing. So if you care about this show, and if you care about supporting independent media, please visit radiotopia.fm/donate. You can chip in any amount that works for you. It all makes a difference. Again, it's radiotopia.fm/donate. Thank you so much. I've talked about Quince before on the show and how some of my favorite clothes are things

• 1:21Hrishikesh Hirway?

  that I've gotten from their website, but they have a lot of categories beyond clothes. For example, I just ordered a cotton velvet tree skirt, which is the thing that goes around the Christmas tree to hide the stand and the cords from the lights and stuff, and it also catches pine needles. I grew up with an artificial tree, so I'm kind of new to the ways of having a real tree, but Quince is letting me step my game up. And everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands, so it's a great place to do all of your holiday shopping, whether you're buying clothes, or accessories, or stuff for your house. Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your

• 2:06Hrishikesh Hirway?

  order and 365-day returns. It's now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was Song Exploder. It's the best way to support the show. This episode is sponsored by the podcast What It's Like to Be. Do you ever think about what other people's workdays look like? Satisfying some of that curiosity is the idea at the heart of bestselling author Dan Heath's podcast, which is called What It's Like to Be. In each episode, Dan interviews someone from a different profession to find out what it's like to be a professional Santa Claus, or a Secret Service agent, or a long-haul truck driver, or an aerospace engineer at NASA, just to name a few examples.

• 2:51Hrishikesh Hirway?

  The show gives you an insider view into all kinds of jobs from a wide range of industries, answering questions like, what do mail carriers learn about us from our mail? There are so many jobs out there that exist only as titles in our imagination, if they even register that much. This show is a chance to reach beyond what you know, or think you know. If you're curious to learn more about the work lives of other people, check out What It's Like to Be, wherever you get podcasts.

• 3:19Hrishikesh Hirway?

  I love talking to musicians about how they made their songs for Song Exploder, but I also just love talking about music in general with people who are passionate about it, just as fans. And I'm really fascinated by how much power there is in music to change your life. Just a chance encounter with a song that really hits you, it can really transform the way you think, not just about music, but the way you see the world, or see yourself. It's happened to me multiple times. And so I wanted to start a new conversation series where I could explore how that's happened for other people. In addition to regular Song Exploder episodes, I'm excited to introduce a new monthly series on the podcast called Key Change, where I talk with fascinating people about the music that's transforming.

• 4:06Hrishikesh Hirway?

  For this first episode, my guest is Sophie Thatcher, an actor and musician, whose credits include starring in the TV show Yellow Jackets, the film Heretic, and the new movie Companion. I met Sophie through Companion because I composed the score to the film. And one of the pieces that I wrote is called Iris's Theme, based on the character that Sophie plays in the movie. And after I wrote that piece, I found out that Sophie is a musician and singer herself, so I asked her to record the vocals for the track. It sounds like this.

• 4:48Hrishikesh Hirway?

  So I got to know Sophie a little bit through that. And we started trading music with each other, some of our own music and music that we're just fans of. And I asked her if there was a piece of music that she felt had changed her, that had transformed her in some fundamental way. And she said the song "Waltz Number One" by Elliott Smith. And if you haven't heard that song before, there's a link to it in the show notes. Elliott Smith's music has meant a lot to me, too, so I was really happy to have this conversation with Sophie.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  I'm Sophie Thatcher. I'm an actor and a musician.

• 5:18Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Sophie, when I asked you this question about what music had changed your life, I feel like you knew right away that the answer was gonna be Elliott Smith. So how did you first encounter his music?

• 5:28Speaker 01

  It was through my twin sister. She was doing an improv class and she had improvised a character that was really sad. And she asked our older brother, like, the saddest musician he could think of. And he showed us Elliott Smith.

• 5:44Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Do you remember what he played you?

• 5:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. "The Ballad of a Nothing" was the first song I heard. And it was just this moment, we were like trapped in our basement, played it over and over again. And I didn't even really know what I was feeling. I just knew that the song went exactly where I wanted it to go, and I'd never felt that about a song before. And then I heard "Waltz Number One," and that was the song that kind of changed me. And I had my first, like, really visceral reaction to a song that I could remember. I think I was 12 at that time.

• 6:19Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Where did you grow up?

• 6:20Speaker 01

  Well, I grew up in Hyde Park, Chicago. And then we left because my brother was getting bullied. So we went to, like, Forest, which is a very suburban, a lot of John Hughes movies are set around there, very Republican, very preppy. So I definitely grew up feeling a little outcast. I mean, having a twin, I feel like immediately outcasts you.

• 6:45Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah. So you have a twin sister and an older brother?

• 6:48Speaker 01

  An older brother and an older sister. Everything was kind of from my brother. I just thought he was the coolest guy. So I would always steal his iPod and listen to his music. And any recommendation that he gave to me, I took really seriously.

• 7:01Hrishikesh Hirway?

  When do you think you started becoming like a serious music fan?

• 7:05Speaker 01

  I can't even pinpoint it because I just have these very blurry memories of forcing my dad to drive around the block over and over again to listen to songs. And it was always a specific point in the song that I knew I would feel something. And if I didn't feel it, I would make him go back and replay it, which I still do, of course.

• 7:23Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  And I would just make him, yeah, drive around for like a good hour.

• 7:27Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Why in the car? Why couldn't you listen at home?

• 7:30Speaker 01

  Something about driving around, which is funny, I don't drive, but I still make my boyfriend do that. And it's kind of great being passenger princess, controlling the music, not having to focus on driving and just listening and looking out the window. And the first time I heard Walt's number one was looking out the window. And I find my best ideas come when I'm in a car looking out the window or when I'm in a plane, looking out the plane window.

• 7:55Hrishikesh Hirway?

  I love passenger princess.

• 7:58Hrishikesh Hirway?

  I've never heard that, but I'm definitely going to be calling myself that from now on. Because I, my wife gets carsick, so she's always the one who drives.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 8:06Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Always the passenger controlling the music. So thank you for passenger princess.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. There's a power to it.

• 8:10Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah. Were your parents super into music?

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, my mother played organ in the church choir. And my dad was really obsessed with Radiohead, Smashing Pumpkins, a lot of just 90s stuff. I think my first band that I was obsessed with was Radiohead, but it wasn't the same kind of personal connection that I had with Elliot. And Elliot almost felt like I hadn't found it on my own, but I sought out his albums on my own, where all of Radiohead was like, he was schooling it to me. He was explaining it to me.

• 8:43Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  Man's playing it.

• 8:44Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Dad's playing it.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Dad's playing it.

• 8:46Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Did he do that with all of you, with you and all of your siblings? Did your dad kind of have that relationship?

• 8:51Speaker 01

  I think, well, me and Ellie grew up very musical.

• 8:54Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Ellie's your twin?

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Ellie's my twin.

• 8:56Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Do you and your sister generally have the same taste in music?

• 8:59Speaker 01

  It's interesting because it's really changed. She's far more electronic, down tempo, a lot less organic instruments. And I find myself still obsessed with Elliot. We still, both are like. I have an ES tattoo, Elliott Smith, Ellie Sophie, both. And both are just as important. Not saying that Elliott Smith is as important as my twin, but it did for a while feel like that, where he was like my best friend in my head. I just remember asking Ellie to replay Ballad of Big Nothing, looking at the lyric video, not understanding at all what the lyrics meant.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  And then later diving into it, I ended up like going to Barnes and Noble and I stole the Kierkegaard either or book.

• 9:49Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  And tried reading it, still not understanding it. I was like 14, really trying to challenge myself, just so I could get closer to his his headspace. But that was the first song that I had heard. Waltz number one was a song that I'd found by myself. And I think because I found it by myself, it felt closer to me. And I think it really started my taste. My older sister likes to call my taste broken carousel music, which is my music sounds like that. And everything that I show her is just like a little bit broken.

• 10:23Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  And because it's a waltz and just because it has this haunting sound to it, he talks about, you know, the repetition of life. And I didn't understand that at the moment, but it was one of the first times I was listening to a song and it felt like I had flashes of a movie and flashes of my life to come. I remember looking out the window and that's when I'm able to visualize something really strongly when I'm looking out the window and I have that distraction. And that's when I find myself most creative. And me and Ellie were making a lot of movies at the time, just like homemade movies. And I was just thinking of the most devastating plots, listening to Waltz number one.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  And yeah, I didn't realize this song is taking a lot of shapes for me as I grow older and actually am in relationships and it's, the lyrics are real now. And I was listening to it when you asked me. Like what song has had the most impact on you is of course gonna be Elliot, but it was so hard choosing a song. But I think Waltz Number One is what changed my taste in music, changed the way. It was the first like time I was able to visualize things, listening to a song without understanding the lyrics.

• 11:36Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I covered it when I was really young and it kind of, there's something about the repetition of the Waltz and that, I think it's that kick bass drum that would play in my nightmares.

• 11:48Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Huh.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  Which is strange, but I would have these ongoing nightmares of a carousel and it would go on and on and on, which is the broken carousel type music. And it was never ending. And it was just the repetition of that carousel and that bass drum would play and it left me feeling doomed. And I had never felt a song that like, you know, hit me in the pit of my stomach like that before.

• 12:13Hrishikesh Hirway?

  You say you found it on your own. Do you remember when you first heard it, like the very first time?

• 12:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember, this is corny, I remember it, but I was driving to a play practice. My mom was driving and I just was the kid that always had my headphones in. I heard the song.

• 12:28Hrishikesh Hirway?

  On your brother's iPod?

• 12:30Speaker 01

  I had my own iPod at the time, but I had all of his songs saved. And I found it, loved the album cover. But I think Waltz Number One, because it was the first song I learned on piano. And anytime I go to piano, I'll do doon, doon, doon, doon, doon. It just kind of lives in me.

• 12:48Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Do you feel like you had the taste for that music before and just like hadn't heard it? Or do you think hearing that for the first time made your taste become what it is?

• 12:57Speaker 01

  I was always drawn to, I found comfort in sadness really early on without understanding what sadness was. I think that just reiterated my taste, but fully shaped it and fully was the confirmation that this is what I find comfort in. Because before that, I mean, I grew up with like an okay computer poster. The men in my life were teaching that to me, Radiohead. And Elliot was just more personal and helped me through high school in a way where I was like really self-destructive. And I would just, every night, have my phone by my side. I would always listen to his live videos because it felt like he was right by my side.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  And it felt like it was kind of having just like a best friend by my side and like I wasn't alone, specifically in high school, because high school's really hard.

• 13:49Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Why do you think that sad music would be helpful when you're feeling self-destructive? You know, as opposed to something that's like so the opposite that it would pull you out of that?

• 14:00Speaker 01

  It's a good question, and I think my relationship with it has changed as I've gotten older, where it's harder to listen to Elliot. And I was on a plane last night. I played Waltz number one for the first time in a while, and it depends on where I'm at emotionally. It's harder to listen to him, but there were phases where listening to him just centered me, even if it was really sad. It was the most normal kind of feeling. It was just what I was used to, and it was the most grounding, if anything, because it just felt like he was my best friend.

• 14:33Hrishikesh Hirway?

  And I think to hear somebody else singing in a place, from a place that matches the mood that you're in.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 14:39Hrishikesh Hirway?

  It just makes you feel like I'm not the only person to have ever felt this way.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I think that was also the biggest thing, where it just felt like he had my back and nobody else did. Which is what everybody feels about Elliot. And it's so interesting, growing up and then coming to LA, where in Chicago, it's like, yes, people loved him, but specifically coming here to LA. I moved to my last Silver Lake apartment because it was right next to the figure eight sign, which is corny. All these things I'm saying are corny, I realize. And I realize that I'm not alone in feeling this way. And there's something interesting about like being in LA and realizing that everybody else feels the same exact way.

• 15:22Hrishikesh Hirway?

  I know, it felt so bad to finally realize like how basic it was for him to be an influence on me.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Isn't it awful? I just, I don't like constantly. Sometimes.

• 15:32Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  Because I just wanted to be this singular personal experience. That's why Elliot is so good, because it does feel like that singular personal experience.

• 15:40Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah, I think that was a really hard moment in

• 15:42Speaker 01

  It's hard.

• 15:43Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Elliott Smith fandom where I was like, oh, he's special only to, I mean, he's, I know people like him, but he's special to me in a very particular way. And then it's like, oh, no, no, he's special to everyone in that exact same particular way.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  He did really, when I think of my childhood, I think of Elliott Smith. And he, it's harder to listen to now, because it feels a little bit more self-destructive. But I feel like he's helped me become a better actor.

• 16:11Hrishikesh Hirway?

  How so?

• 16:12Speaker 01

  He centers me. Like I said, listening to him makes me get in touch with my emotions faster. It's the, I feel like music is always the easiest way to get to an emotional place or an emotional memory. It's the fastest way for me out of any art form.

• 16:29Hrishikesh Hirway?

  So when you're on set, will you have headphones?

• 16:32Speaker 01

  Always.

• 16:33Hrishikesh Hirway?

  You'll listen to music?

• 16:34Speaker 01

  And I'll just like go to my trailer and I always make playlists, depending on like which character I'm playing or what scene. But I mean, like with Elliot, it's just like a, it's a switch. Listening to Waltz Number One, The Plane, Yesterday, I just started sobbing.

• 16:52Hrishikesh Hirway?

  More with Sophie Thatcher after this.

• 16:58Hrishikesh Hirway?

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• 17:45Hrishikesh Hirway?

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• 18:30Hrishikesh Hirway?

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• 19:12Hrishikesh Hirway?

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• 19:49Hrishikesh Hirway?

  You said that you covered Walt's Number One.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:52Hrishikesh Hirway?

  What was that like?

• 19:53Speaker 01

  Oh, God, it was not, it wasn't great. I think I was 18. I was staying in the NYU dorms, but wasn't going there. I was taking my center classes. But it was my first time by myself and there was this room with a piano and I would lock myself in at my computer and played it and just drowned it with reverb. So you can't really hear it. And that was my phase at the time, just drowning everything in reverb so that you couldn't tell when I was messing up on the piano. But I did that and I remember like it was kind of hard. I was like swallowing the lyrics because it was hard for me to say them because I had such a weird connection with them. And that was one of my first breakups. And me being dramatic, I sent the cover. It was like I was going to send the cover to my ex

• 20:37Speaker 01

  to be dramatic when I was 18.

• 20:40Hrishikesh Hirway?

  You must have such a different relationship with Elliott Smith than I can imagine, really, because when I first fell in love with his music, he was still alive.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:49Hrishikesh Hirway?

  If you were 11 when you first heard him, that might have been eight years after he passed away, a long time after he passed away.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, a long time after. My brother had told me about, a little bit about his life, but I, I was just always researching him.

• 21:06Hrishikesh Hirway?

  So how did your tastes change after you heard Walt's Number One? Did it change like the kind of stuff that you sought out?

• 21:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I was seeking out songs with nostalgia. When I listened to Walt's Number One, it felt like I'd heard the song before. And then after that, that was always kind of that feeling that I was grasping on to. And all my favorite songs are that way. Where I know some people, it's like, oh, it's going to take a couple of times to listen to a song to like it. I know immediately. Where it's just that sense of I've heard this before and it feels comfortable and it feels like... Something you've experienced before.

• 21:44Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah.

• 21:44Speaker 01

  But after listening to that, that was the strongest sense of nostalgia that I'd ever had. I just wanted to get that feeling again because it's so strong.

• 21:54Hrishikesh Hirway?

  What were some other things that you found that gave you that same kind of feeling?

• 21:58Speaker 01

  Sparkle Horse was another that I got into around the same time. It's a Wonderful Life, which is also a Waltz. That was a song that I got into immediately after that, which I think falls into the broken carousel type music. And it shaped my taste completely. It's a Wonderful Life and Waltz Number One. If you listen them back to back, you can see similarities.

• 22:19Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Definitely.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  There's just this haunting quality to both of them.

• 22:24Hrishikesh Hirway?

  I sometimes look at stuff, especially like when I was 18, I feel like the stuff that I got really into. At one point I looked and I was like, oh yeah, I'm kind of looking for the same feeling in movies, in music and art. Like everything that I was looking for. Like, were there movies that you watched that gave you the same kind of feeling?

• 22:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, one of my first favorite movies was Pan's Labyrinth. I watched it way too early on. I'm hugely obsessed with movie soundtracks. And that theme song to Pan's Labyrinth had the same haunting lullaby like quality. It feels like something your mother would sing to you as a baby. And that, I think it was around the same time that I was listening to the Pan's Labyrinth soundtrack. And I was listening to Waltz Number One. It was all just like tied together into this feeling like I'd heard it before. Like Rosemary's Baby, which we were talking about with working on Companion.

• 23:16Hrishikesh Hirway?

  And the Rosemary's Baby theme is also kind of a Waltz. I didn't know any of this stuff about you when I wrote the music.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Really?

• 23:22Hrishikesh Hirway?

  The Irish theme is also a Waltz. It's also kind of, it is kind of broken carousel in its own way.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  I mean, of course.

• 23:29Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah.

• 23:29Speaker 01

  That's, that's amazing.

• 23:30Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  But it comes from, when I heard the song, I was, I wanted to cry. Like when I heard the song you'd made, it just felt so me. And it's all kind of coming together now.

• 23:41Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah.

• 23:41Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 23:43Hrishikesh Hirway?

  But so Waltz Number One was the first entry in the Sophie's Broken Carousel playlist of your life.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  And then I grew up with a lot of neutral milk hotel. And all of that is pretty broken carousel. Anything off of Elephant Six, the record label, is very broken carousel. There's something a little off about it.

• 24:02Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  But a beautiful offness to it.

• 24:04Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Would you want to then share your intense love of Elliott Smith with your family? Since it sort of started with your brother and your twin sister.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  I share it with everyone. It was like I was putting people at gunpoint at some extent. I was like, you have to listen to this. And they're like, no, I don't want to right now.

• 24:19Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  Ellie feels the same way. I know Ellie doesn't listen to him as much because it, there are ties to feeling self-destructive listening to him. But, I mean, my mom loves him.

• 24:32Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  Very big Elliott fans in our family. I don't talk to my dad anymore, but my dad was a fan as well. My sister, actually, my older sister, took a while to get into him because it felt very much like my thing. But now, I mean, I think it's kind of impossible not to like him.

• 24:49Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah. Do you still share music with your siblings?

• 24:52Speaker 01

  Oh, me and Ellie constantly showing music. Me and Ellie have been working on some music together.

• 24:58Hrishikesh Hirway?

  But she's not on the record you just put out, right? The CD you put out last year?

• 25:02Speaker 01

  Oh, no, she played this like MIDI organ, but it's really, we kind of have different music tastes now, but I would love to make music with her because we grew up, I mean, it was just us at the computer on YouTube for hours, looking up every recommended video.

• 25:20Hrishikesh Hirway?

  When you did the cover of Waltz Number One, had you already started writing music of your own?

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was pretty bad. It was just layers of my vocals. And Elliott is the reason why I layer all my vocals. And I feel so barren, it feels so wrong when I don't have layered vocals. It irks me. And I thank him for that.

• 25:38Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  When I first started making music, it was kind of like unlistenable to an extent. And then I was just writing waltzes. I was writing so many, all of my earliest songs. They're all waltzes on piano because of Waltzing Row.

• 25:53Hrishikesh Hirway?

  I feel like when there's an artist who you love so much and like they inspire you so much, it's really hard for the first music you make not to just sound like.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  Sound like that.

• 26:02Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  And you hear that, I mean, you hear that in Elliot, you hear that in so many different artists.

• 26:06Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah.

• 26:07Speaker 01

  Because that's your first entryway and it's so hard to just like be original or authentic.

• 26:14Hrishikesh Hirway?

  This is maybe a weird question, but do you feel like you can trace the influence of Elliott Smith's music on you in your acting?

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't know how. I mean, he's a part of, it does feel like, again, it's like he is my childhood. I think he's allowed me to be more vulnerable and okay with being vulnerable. And I find strength in vulnerability and his music is so incredibly vulnerable and raw. And I feel like if I didn't have that and if I was listening to different music, wouldn't even be able to access those emotions.

• 26:52Hrishikesh Hirway?

  You can see Sophie Thatcher in the new movie Companion, which I composed the score for. The Score album is out now, which features vocals by Sophie on a few of the tracks. There are links to all of that in the show notes. Go to songexploder.net/keachange for more. I'll be back with a Song Exploder episode next week and stay tuned for more Key Change episodes in the future. This episode was produced by me and Mary Dolan with production assistance from Tiger Biscuit. Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts. You can learn more about our shows at radiotopia.fm. If you'd like to hear more from me, you can sign up for my newsletter. You can find a link to it on the Song Exploder website. And you

• 27:37Hrishikesh Hirway?

  can also follow me on Instagram at @RishiHirway. And you can get a Song Exploder t-shirt at songexploder.net/shirt. I'm Rishi Kesh Hirway. Thanks for listening.