Hayley Kiyoko - Girls Like Girls

Hayley Kiyoko is a singer, songwriter, author, and director from Los Angeles. She was a child actor on Disney and Nickelodeon, and briefly in a girl group called The Stunners. But then, she started her career as a solo artist. In 2015, she put out the EP This Side of Paradise, and one of the songs on it was “Girls Like Girls.” She co-wrote it with Lily May-Young and Owen Thomas, and it was produced by James Flannigan. Hayley co-directed the music video for it, and when the song and the video came out, it was an absolute phenomenon. It became a lesbian anthem; Rolling Stone named it one of the most inspiring LGBTQ songs of all time. Hayley’s legion of fans gave her the nickname “Lesbian Jesus.” In 2023, Hayley adapted the song into a bestselling coming-of-age novel. And in June 2026, she made her feature film directorial debut, with the movie adaptation of “Girls Like Girls.” For this episode, Hayley and I talked about how it all started with the making of that song. For more info, visit songexploder.net/hayley-kiyoko. https://songexploder.net/hayley-kiyoko

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Hrishikesh Hirway?

  You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and, piece by piece, tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishi Kesh Hirway.

• 0:11Hrishikesh Hirway?

  I'm going to be on tour, playing some shows this fall. I'm going to be in London on Wednesday, November 18th. I'm going to be performing solo at Rough Trade Records on Denmark Street, and I'm going to be in conversation about my music moderated by one of my favorite actors and writers, Matthew Bainton. And a ticket to the show also gets you a copy of my album on vinyl or CD. And in December, I'm going to be on tour supporting S. Carry. We're going to be playing a bunch of shows in the Northeast US. So I hope to see you in one of those places. You can find all the details and get links to tickets at songexploder.net/live. That's songexploder.net/live.

• 0:55Hrishikesh Hirway?

  This episode is sponsored by the podcast, What It's Like to Be. Do you ever think about what other people's workdays look like? Satisfying some of that curiosity is the idea at the heart of bestselling author Dan Heath's podcast, which is called What It's Like to Be. In each episode, Dan interviews someone from a different profession to find out what it's like to be a professional Santa Claus, or a Secret Service agent, or a long haul truck driver, or an aerospace engineer at NASA, just to name a few examples. The show gives you an insider view into all kinds of jobs from a wide range of industries, answering questions like, what do mail carriers learn about us from our mail? There are so many jobs out there that exist only as titles in our imagination,

• 1:41Hrishikesh Hirway?

  if they even register that much. This show is a chance to reach beyond what you know or think you know. If you're curious to learn more about the work lives of other people, check out What It's Like to Be, wherever you get podcasts. There's a new podcast called Before the Moment with Nile Rodgers. In every legendary music career, there's a moment right before it all changes. And in every episode of this podcast, Nile Rodgers talks to a legendary musician about the choices, the events, and the relationships that shaped their career before the moment that everything changed for them. Every story is unique and opens a window into the lives of some of the biggest names in music. And Nile is the perfect person to lead these conversations because for over 50 years,

• 2:24Hrishikesh Hirway?

  he's played guitar with artists like Diana Ross, David Bowie, Madonna, Daft Punk, and Beyonce. In the first season of the podcast, some of Nile's guests include John Legend, Miguel, and more. New episodes are coming out every other Tuesday. Listen to Before the Moment with Nile Rodgers wherever you get your podcasts.

• 2:47Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Hayley Kiyoko is a singer, songwriter, author, and director from Los Angeles. She was a child actor on Disney and Nickelodeon, and briefly in a girl group called The Stunners. But then she started her career as a solo artist. In 2015, she put out the EP This Side of Paradise, and one of the songs on it was "Girls Like Girls." She co-wrote it with Lily May Young and Owen Thomas, and it was produced by James Flanagan. Hayley co-directed the music video for it. And when the song in the video came out, it was an absolute phenomenon. It became a lesbian anthem. Rolling Stone named it one of the most inspiring LGBTQ songs of all time. Hayley's legion of fans gave her the nickname Lesbian Jesus.

• 3:29Hrishikesh Hirway?

  In 2023, Hayley adapted the song into a bestselling coming-of-age novel. And in June 2026, she made her feature film directorial debut with the movie adaptation of "Girls Like Girls." So for this episode, Hayley and I talked about how it all started with the making of that song.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  I'm Haley Kiyoko.

• 4:10Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Do you feel like you've always been a performer? Is that just something that's been a part of you since the beginning?

• 4:16Speaker 01

  So a fun fact is I wore a back brace in middle school for two years. I had really bad scoliosis and I credit that experience and moment for the ability to fake my confidence because it was sink or swim. It was like, I'm wearing this back brace and I'm gonna get bullied or I'm gonna have to pretend that this is the coolest thing you could do is, is fix your scoliosis. And that's the direction I went. And so I kind of created this facade of confidence. But when I would come home, I felt very alone and very isolated and I didn't feel like I had real connection. I knew I was queer since I was like five or six.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  And, you know, I have a specific memory of seeing NSYNC at the Staples Center. And I watched the boy band and I was like, oh my gosh, I want to be onstage singing a song with screaming girls all over the place. Like, that is my dream. I wanted to be this pop star. And I was like, how does that work? I was like, okay, I love writing music on my acoustic guitar in my bedroom. And, you know, I would write songs about girls all the time, but I would change the pronouns from she/her to he/him in my journals in case someone found them. So like, even though I knew my truth, you're still even having to hide in your own space.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  So I really struggled with like self-worth and self-love.

• 5:46Hrishikesh Hirway?

  I feel like people might be surprised to learn that because weren't you on TV and already kind of a young star at that point?

• 5:54Speaker 01

  Well, the first time I booked a role, I was 17. So I wasn't like a kid kid, but I ended up starting to book commercials where I played a musician. Like I was in like a Cinnamon Toast Crunch commercial and I was like rocking out on the guitar. And I like would pretend to be a musician, but I really wanted to be a real musician. And I had a brief stint of being in a girl group way even before I was a solo artist. And I was really exposed to the male gaze and performing for these.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Men in the music industry and I'd never felt safe to tell people that I was a lesbian because I was worried that I would lose my job or like I wouldn't be supported in the group or stuff like that. So there was a big fear and disconnect where I really wanted to be myself, but I felt like being myself was going to hinder my ability to be successful. And so I really struggled being able to connect those dots.

• 7:00Hrishikesh Hirway?

  What do you remember about the first day of working on Girls Like Girls?

• 7:05Speaker 01

  It was a rainy day in Los Angeles and I was still searching for my sound and my voice. I was with another two writers who were married couple Owen and Lilly. We had written a couple of songs prior and I remember it was raining and Lilly was like, what are you most afraid of to sing about? Like, what is the scariest thing you could share that you've never shared before? And she had just such a warmth to her and I had known I was a lesbian for a very long time, but I, I never really came out to people, especially like coworkers. But I felt very like safe and comfortable with her and I felt like

• 7:47Speaker 01

  she wouldn't judge me for who I was. And so I came out to her, started crying. And she was like, why don't we write about that? I remember talking to Lilly and just talking about how it was so frustrating because when I was like fantasizing over my crush or like wanting to be with a girl, I was always comparing myself to a guy. Like, I wish I could say this and say that and say this. As a woman, you're jealous of what men get to experience because women are still not like equal in society or we're taught that we're not equal. And it's so frustrating

• 8:32Speaker 01

  because girls like girls like boys do. And I always found myself in like a love triangle almost where it was me or him. And it's like my feelings are just as valid as this guy who's in love with this girl. And we were just having this conversation and she was like, well, why don't we just like say that? Girls like girls like boys do. And so we started on the chorus and started with that as like the foundation of what the song would be.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  And then the convo was kind of like who I wish I was at that time, which was confident and like, I'm gonna steal your girl and like, you know, who I wanted to be that I wasn't.

• 9:30Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Did that point to any musical starting place for you?

• 9:34Speaker 01

  I grew up playing drums, so percussion and rhythm has always been a huge inspiration for me. And I feel like when I listen to a great song with an amazing snare and amazing kick, like, I'm just in it. And so when I think of like, cool, or like, what I wanted, or confidence, I think of drums.

• 9:54Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Did you end up making a demo that day?

• 9:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, we did, but I have no idea where that is. Actually, we should pause this and I should try to find it.

• 10:04Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Found it?

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  We did make a demo. Owen produced it.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, we finished the whole song that day.

• 10:49Hrishikesh Hirway?

  So after you had that demo, did you have something in mind for where you wanted the song to go in terms of the production?

• 10:56Speaker 01

  I just wanted it to feel like me. And I think as an artist, you're always searching, like, who are you in sonic form? You kind of like do writing sessions and you meet different people and you're almost like dating, you know, and you're like figuring out who you like working with. And so I met James Flanagan in 2013. I just really loved his charisma and we really connected and aligned. I think he was in LA for a period of time, but he lived in the UK. He lived in London. And so we met early on. And then when I started working on The Side of Paradise, I called him up.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  I was like, hey, like, I have no money. Would you want to work with me on my EP? And he was like, if you find a place to stay and you come to me, absolutely. And so I flew to London and we wrote for like a week. And then a couple of months later, I was like, how do we get back together? Because you live in London, I live in LA. And he was like, well, I'll come to LA. Do you have a place to stay? And I was like, well, you could stay with my parents and we could make like a makeshift studio in the garage. And so he agreed. So he lived with my parents.

• 12:22Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Wow.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  For, I think it was like two or three weeks. And he came out, it was just me and James and we produced the record. So my relationship with James was very collaborative. It was never like, this is what I think you should do or else. You know, I had just been in a girl group where you didn't get to write the songs. You didn't get to have any say. I had been through that. And that's not the experience I wanted when writing my music.

• 12:54Hrishikesh Hirway?

  My conversation with Haley Kiyoko continues after this.

• 13:02Hrishikesh Hirway?

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• 13:47Hrishikesh Hirway?

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• 14:34Hrishikesh Hirway?

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• 15:19Hrishikesh Hirway?

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• 15:43Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Do you remember the first time you shared this song with James?

• 15:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was interesting. So we had picked the songs for the EP. And I didn't put Girls That Girls on the EP. I didn't want to because I wasn't ready to come out. I was like, once I release this, people know I'm gay. And then I can't turn back. Like, it's over. It's over for me. But I was like, I think I should throw it on. Like, it's the best song. Like, why wouldn't I put it on? And so it was kind of like a last minute addition to it. I remember playing it for James. And I think he knew the weight of what this moment was for me. And, you know, I think he took that seriously.

• 16:28Hrishikesh Hirway?

  The song is, correct me if I'm wrong, all vocals and electronic sounds. What determined those being the sounds?

• 16:37Speaker 01

  I think at the time, budget. But at that time, I was so like synth forward. I loved like yeah, yeah, yeahs and TV on the radio and M83. And, you know, so that's all I wanted. And he had like an ovation station. It's this little mini keyboard. And there was like 80 presets on it or something like that. And we kind of go through and he's like, how does this feel?

• 17:07Speaker 01

  How does that feel? You're really just twiddling and feeling it out because you don't know where the destination is. But I think as a musician, you hear something and you're like, yeah, that's it. That feels right.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  That wah, wah, wah, that part, I felt like was kind of the identity of the song.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  It is a weird beat when you isolated that. I was like, where's the tempo? I was like, it's almost like a weird shuffle.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  To me, that's the heart of the record, those two sounds. There's like a confidence in the drive of it, but there's also hesitancy in between. And I think the whole metaphor of this song is like I was trying to lead with confidence, but I was actually really hesitant. And so I think weirdly that really mirrors how I felt. The opening line of Girls Like Girls is stealing kisses from your missus doesn't make you freak out. It's like I'm pursuing her and why couldn't I pursue her?

• 18:46Hrishikesh Hirway?

  You know, you said that you used to write your songs on acoustic guitar. Where did the guitar fit into your sense of your musical identity at this point in your life?

• 18:55Speaker 01

  It didn't, and I was trying to remove it.

• 18:57Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Really?

• 18:57Speaker 01

  When you have a guitar in your bedroom and all you have is your guitar, you just want every other instrument but the guitar, at least from my experience. And my dream was to be able to work with a producer and be able to record my music and use like anything else but the guitar. I just wanted to get to experience other sounds and things that I personally couldn't create or achieve just on my own. You know, James is such a great instrumentalist, finding these little pieces to really just elevate the journey of the song.

• 19:51Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Do you feel like your acting work helped with the performance of the singing part?

• 19:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. I think my acting experience of just like putting this cap of confidence. I mean, I do have the side of myself that is very confident. And I think it's just, I remember recording it and James, you know, being like, feel confident in what you're saying. And we would try different things. I tried whispering it. I tried talking it. I tried shouting it. And it just kind of sat in this kind of more conversational tone that ended up shining. Tell the neighbors I'm not sorry if I'm breaking walls down. Building your girl's second story, ripping all your floors out.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  It's just so interesting to listen to those lyrics. It's like, damn, those are some cocky lyrics. Really confident lyrics there.

• 20:51Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Do you remember how you got to that second verse?

• 20:54Speaker 01

  Lilly's such a visual person and, you know, the chorus is so just direct. And I remember we were talking and she was like, let's build a visual. Let's create a world and tell the neighbors I'm not sorry if I'm breaking walls down. Building your girl's second story, ripping all your floors out. I think it's such a beautiful sentiment because it is like for so many people, some people of my experience where they, they know who they are from the beginning and they're hiding who they are. And then there's other people who maybe get married and then find the love of their life later on in their life and ends up being a woman. Or they end up realizing something about themselves and their identity.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  And it's, it's a rainbow.

• 21:40Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Had you been in a relationship at that point?

• 21:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, but like, you know, just like toxic relationship vibes. You know, I was always falling for like the straight girls or the unavailable girls. And, but I hadn't experienced like real love at that time or anything. But I've had like experiences.

• 22:02Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Falling for the straight girl is a good way to get into a love triangle.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Really set yourself up for success there.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  And then I remember, I was like, oh, the song's called Girls Like Girls. And it'd be funny to be like, almost sarcastically being like, boy, you know, as like, I'm talking to this guy that I'm stealing his girl from, yeah.

• 22:50Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Having the harmony that's going throughout. Do you remember where that idea came from or how you arrived?

• 22:54Speaker 01

  That was classic. I'll share with you. It stems from feeling insecure with my vocals, growing up not being the best vocalist and having to learn how to sing because I was so desperate to express myself through song. And so I would always layer my voice. I grew up listening to like Amajin Heep and, you know, like the vocoder stuff she would do. And so I've just always loved like walls of voices.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  We mixed this song on an iHome. Do you remember an iHome? Like the ones that were the alarm clocks by your bedside? That's what we mixed the song on.

• 24:03Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Because those were the best speakers you had in the house?

• 24:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, we also didn't have money to get it professionally done. So James like mixed it on the iHome and was like, well, if it sounds good on the iHome, then it'll sound good in everyone's professional speakers.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  Obviously, I had no idea what this song would end up being for myself. And I had no idea the foundation the song was going to lay for me and in my future. And then I remember wanting to make a music video for it. I was like, if I'm gonna release a song, then I need to like, really go for it. And that's, you know, when I co-directed the music video and released that in June 2015. A couple of days later, same-sex marriage was legalized in the country, which was to my surprise and also very exciting. So it was just this really interesting shift culturally that happened.

• 25:18Speaker 01

  And then the music video went from a million to two million to three million. I was playing for 15 people in Michigan in a bar and sitting in my car because there was no green room. Like, that's where I was at. And because of this song, I got signed to a major label.

• 25:36Hrishikesh Hirway?

  And then how did all that lead to you directing this movie?

• 25:40Speaker 01

  A lot of the comments were like, I wish this was a movie.

• 25:43Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Comments on the music video?

• 25:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that kind of planted this seed. And that led to many, many years of, you know, developing the script. And at one point, the movie kind of like fell apart. And I was like, if I die tomorrow, I need this story to be told. So I decided to write the novel of Girls Like Girls. And so I released the book in 2023, and that became a New York Times bestseller. And that momentum ended up sparking the momentum back up for the film. And I got greenlit for the film at the end of 2023, shot the movie in 2024, finished the movie in 2025, and now we're in 2026.

• 26:32Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Now this song is 11 years old.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:36Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Do you feel like you made your NSYNC fantasy come true?

• 26:40Speaker 01

  I think I have. Like, I definitely think that that dream of being able to sing music about girls and having girls, you know, scream and be excited about it. I definitely have had those moments. It's kind of really wild to think about that. And that all started being scared that I was putting this song out on the EP.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  You know, it's really cool to go down this memory lane with you, knowing that I love being gay. I love who I am, and I found love.

• 27:28Hrishikesh Hirway?

  And now here's "Girls Like Girls" by Hilly Kiyoko in its entirety.

• 27:46Speaker 03

  Stealing kisses from your masses doesn't make you freak out. Got you fussing, got you worried, scared to let your guard down, boys.

• 28:03Speaker 03

  Boys.

• 28:07Speaker 03

  Tell the neighbors I'm not sorry if I'm breaking walls down. Building your girl's second story, ripping all your floors out. Saw your place, heard your name, gotta get with you. Girls like girls like boys do nothing new. Isn't this why we came? Gotta get with you. Girls like girls like boys do nothing new. Girls like girls like boys do nothing new.

• 29:01Speaker 03

  Always gonna steal your thunder Watch me like a dark cloud On the move, collecting numbers I'mma take your girl out We will be, everything that we never need, oh Don't tell me, tell me what I feel I'm really not a feel like a boy

• 29:32Speaker 03

  I'm really not a feel like a boy Saw your face, heard your name Gotta get with you Girls like girls like boys do Nothing new, isn't this why we came? Gotta get with you Girls like girls like boys do Nothing new Girls like girls like boys do Nothing new I've been crossing all the lines, all the lines

• 30:15Speaker 03

  Kissed your girl that made you cry, boy

• 30:43Speaker 03

  Saw your face, heard your name Gotta get with you Girls like girls like boys do Nothing new, isn't this why we came? Tell me if you feel it too, tell me Girls like girls like boys do Nothing new Girls like girls like boys do Nothing new

• 31:19Hrishikesh Hirway?

  To learn more, visit songexploder.net. You can find links to buy or stream Girls Like Girls and to watch the music video that Hayley co-directed. The film Girls Like Girls is out now. This episode was produced by me, Craig Ely, Mary Dolan, Kathleen Smith, and Tiger Biscoop. The episode artwork is by Carlos Lerma, and I made the show's theme music and logo. Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts. You can learn more about our shows at radiotopia.fm. If you'd like to hear more from me, subscribe to my newsletter. You can find it on the Song

• 31:58Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Exploder website. You can also get a Song Exploder shirt at songexploder.net/shirt. I'm Rishi Keshi Hirway. Thanks for listening.

• 32:12Speaker 04

  Radiotopia.

• 32:15Speaker 04

  From PRX.