Leon Thomas - Mutt

Leon Thomas is a singer, songwriter, producer, and actor. He’s nominated for six Grammys at this year’s Grammy Awards, including Best New Artist, Best R&B Album, and Album of the Year for Mutt. Mutt is his second album, and I talked to Leon about the title track, which was a breakout hit. He’d already won a Grammy for his work with SZA, but he reached a new level in his own career with this song and this album. I also spoke to David Phelps and Rob Gueringer, AKA D. Phelps and Freaky Rob, who produced the song. For more info, visit songexploder.net/leon-thomas. https://songexploder.net/leon-thomas

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Hrishikesh Hirway?

  You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and, piece by piece, tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishi Kesh Hirway.

• 0:10Hrishikesh Hirway?

  This episode of Song Exploder is made possible by IBM. It was recorded in front of a live audience at IBM's offices in New York City, and it was a great experience. I learned a lot about the work that IBM's doing in partnership with the Grammys, which includes the Grammy IQ Trivia Game that you can check out at IQ.Grammy.com. It was built with IBM Watson X, and it's just one of the ways IBM helps create smarter business. This episode contains explicit language.

• 0:39Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Leon Thomas is a singer, songwriter, producer, and actor. He's nominated for six Grammys at this year's Grammy Awards, including Best New Artist, Best R&B Album, and Album of the Year for "Mutt." "Mutt" is his second album, and I talked to Leon about the title track, which was a breakout hit. He'd already won a Grammy for his work with SZA, but he reached a new level in his own career with this song and this album. I also spoke to David Phelps and Rob Geringer, aka D. Phelps and Freaky Rob, who produced the song.

• 1:32Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Leading up to the day when you first started writing "Mutt," what was going on in your life?

• 1:37Speaker 01

  Right around the time when I was doing the album "Mutt," it was a transitional period in my life. You know, I'd had records that were doing very well for other artists. There was a song that I produced for SZA called "Snooze" that was, like, burning up the charts. Previous to that, I was working with Drake a lot. But at the end of the year, I was very frustrated because I felt like my first album, Electric Dusk, was getting some love, but it wasn't enough to really shake the building. And we had a new president coming in to the label, and it was a very scary time because sometimes when the person that signs you leaves the label, the next person could easily say,

• 2:21Speaker 01

  "All right, we're not sure about this kid." So this record, Mutt, was a survival instinct. You know, I went in top of the year. It was January 1st, 2023. I decided, I said, "Okay, we're gonna have to go in and really swing hard on something that works."

• 2:38Hrishikesh Hirway?

  It was literally New Year's Day.

• 2:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, literally New Year's Day.

• 2:41Speaker 03

  January 1st, 2023. My name is Rob Gueringer, AKA Freaky Rob.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  And I'm Dee Phelps.

• 2:48Speaker 03

  And we produced Mutt.

• 2:50Hrishikesh Hirway?

  How did you two first start collaborating?

• 2:53Speaker 03

  We met when I was 14, and I'd be like 16.

• 2:57Hrishikesh Hirway?

  And have you been making music together ever since?

• 2:59Speaker 03

  Ever since. So the way we even met, Leon, is my management and David's management have been on our asses about doing content. Me and Dee were terrible at doing content.

• 3:10Hrishikesh Hirway?

  What do you mean by content?

• 3:12Speaker 03

  Like how you see producers on Instagram. They make the beat from scratch and then they put it up. And it was like, our managers was pretty much like, "You guys need to get in on that. Like, you guys should be making videos. You should be showing some of these jams." And so we had did a cool idea, this day in particular.

• 3:33Speaker 03

  David was like, "You know what? I'mma record myself playing the drums, and I'mma put that up."

• 3:38Speaker 01

  I was scrolling through Instagram, and I saw a video of David playing drums and Freaky Rob playing bass, and I DM'd them.

• 3:46Speaker 02

  And you know, it's funny because when it came out, that video didn't have that many views, but it led to him, so.

• 3:54Speaker 01

  Meeting up with them was like finding lost brothers. I feel like we all listen to the same mixture of Led Zeppelin, Kendrick Lamar, Miles Davis, Pink Floyd, you know, these guys get me. They understand P-Funk in a real way. They understand jazz, Art Tatum, John Coltrane. They get my mind when it comes to wanting to make something that feels like something. Finding that in a collaborator is rare. And I knew we were gonna make something special. I didn't know when, but I knew we were gonna make something special.

• 4:27Hrishikesh Hirway?

  So when you started working on the song "Mutt", how much had you done together at that point?

• 4:33Speaker 01

  Probably about six months into working.

• 4:36Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Okay, so you had a solid working relationship with them already?

• 4:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, we would pull up, you know? Rob had a studio. He named the playground because it was like a pretty large room. He had instruments lined in so any musician could come in and pick up their acts of choice, the keys, drums, whatever. And it was all lined into Logic and we could play.

• 4:56Hrishikesh Hirway?

  So when you first started "Mutt", how did that day begin?

• 4:59Speaker 01

  I walked in on a mission. Top of the year, it's up, I was energized. It was the same kind of vibe that people walk into the gym with on like January 5th or some shit. Like, I was just like, I'm gonna do it, six pack is on the way. Like, you know what I'm saying? I had this energy to me that felt like, alright, we gotta make something special.

• 5:18Speaker 03

  You could tell he was ready to get to something. Talking to me and David like we the congregation.

• 5:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I just remember Leon with the sunglasses and just like, guys, I had an epiphany.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  So while I was on Christmas break, I watched this Elvis biopic. And, you know, he had the hound dog, almost like a totem for like his world. And at the time, I had a dog and a cat. And my dog and my cat were bickering. And my cat, you know, lightly taps my dog on the face with her paw. And my dog had this face like, like, like he kind of did something wrong. But it was like playful. And in that moment, his face, I don't know, maybe this sounds crazy, but his face looked like mine. I was kind of seeing myself in him for the first time. And that honestly really hit me.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  I wanted to find a way to kinda tie in all of these songs about unrequited love, about maybe being a player at times, or maybe not being the right kind of partner at times. And I wanted to find a way to really encompass all of that from a very vulnerable place, rather than a place of bravado. I was like, "Hold on, mutt, hound dog, all of this, alright, we could tie this together." And I thought it would be a real fun playful hook, you know? Because my dog is a mutt, you know? He's a German Shepherd, husky, pit. So he's just got a lot going on. And the term "mutt", immediately it just had like a ring to it, the vibe was right.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  The one thing about him is just like, we know a dreamer when we see one, and we're gonna empower it. And so, we was just like, "Alright, let's get it."

• 6:57Hrishikesh Hirway?

  So, did you start with the music?

• 6:59Speaker 02

  Well, funny enough, the music already was started.

• 7:01Speaker 03

  It was started already?

• 7:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, we just didn't know it. Basically, bro kinda gave us what he was searching for sonically, and then we just started pressing "Play on Beats" and stuff, like we always do. And then, I found the session on accident, looking for another beat I was supposed to play Leon, and played the beat.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  And then, I tried to stop it, and he was like-

• 7:25Speaker 03

  He was like, "That's it." "That's it." Me and David looked at each other like, "What the hell?" Because it was so bare bones.

• 7:34Speaker 02

  It was just kinda like an eight-bar loop.

• 7:36Speaker 03

  Because we used to make sketches, like we would be at the studio so long, either he, David would get bored, just go start some shit, and I'd come back to it later, add everything, or I would do the same thing. We like literally saved stuff, like, "Rob, come back to this." Or, "David, add keys to this." And it was one of those things, and I low-key had forgot about it. I'm like, "This shit is hard." And Leon was like, "Y'all wanna go ahead and build this out, my brothers?"

• 8:02Speaker 01

  I spent years producing for other people. Sometimes it's nice as an artist to walk into something that started. And then if I have ideas, I'm down to go back and forth with the producer to see if we can like take it to another place. But it can be a little exhausting if you're trying to do 100% of everything and less fun. I like to collaborate, man. It's like a party in the studio when you're there with your boys, you know? When everybody's together and everybody's coming up with really cool ideas, the art of collaboration can really turn into a really positive thing.

• 8:31Hrishikesh Hirway?

  So at this point, all you had for the instrumental was drums, 808, and a sample?

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, the sample was "Silly Love Song" by Enchantment.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  Rob is the reason I heard "Silly Love Song." He was cleaning up his studio one day on a Sunday.

• 8:54Speaker 03

  My studio was a wreck at the time. We had just recorded a bunch of different sessions going on that week, so the studio was in shambles. And that's my happy place. Like David knows, I'm a very old soul. I'll put on oldies, I'll clean up. But I didn't know. What's funny is I thought he knew what that song was. Because this is like backyard barbecue Chicago music. Like my grandmothers, my uncles, they're stepping to this, they're having a good time, they vibing. Like this is like a part of my childhood, you know? And when I seen him go to the computer after listening to it, I was like, oh shit, he hears something.

• 9:32Speaker 03

  That's him on drums.

• 9:40Speaker 03

  That's what got me. Like, I was like, yeah.

• 9:45Speaker 03

  But I know how big the song is personally.

• 9:49Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Right.

• 9:49Speaker 03

  Like, okay, well, it's Enchantment. But Leon is just like, I don't give a damn, this is a great song. Like, you know what I'm saying? But we're like thinking about the actual logistics, like the real part of it.

• 10:01Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Right, like you're thinking about, how do we do this without having to rely on a sample?

• 10:05Speaker 01

  And he didn't want to go down that rabbit hole, get in trouble and stuff. So he literally made it a point to try to recreate or interpolate that whole feeling.

• 10:14Hrishikesh Hirway?

  What is the difference between using a sample and then doing this kind of interpolation that you're talking about? What does that change?

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Your finances?

• 10:23Speaker 03

  Literally. You pay either way, it's just depending on how much. You get to save a little bit if you go one way opposed to the other.

• 10:31Speaker 02

  But I do think us being able to interpolate the song actually did add a unique energy to the sonic wall.

• 10:39Hrishikesh Hirway?

  How did you go about doing that? How did you recreate the sample?

• 10:43Speaker 02

  We built over the sample, so like the bass and guitar, like Rob knocked that out real fast, piano. Shout out to Leon a lot too, because like with the strings, he kind of took the initiative to get those things recorded.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  But at the time, when I first heard the instrumental, there was no bass yet. And once again, I told you I had this mission. I was like, we now we need that P funk. I was like, yo, Rob, you could play a bassline, but I wanted to have like that wah, like Bootsy, you know? Bootsy Collins is known for like, you know, his use of the wah wah pedal and that open close feeling, it gives so much structure to the bass. And it's like really dope and vintage, you know, it's that funk.

• 11:34Speaker 03

  That drum and bass is a marriage that's like, you know, me and Deeve been playing together almost 20 years. So it's like, some things, it's just a chemistry thing, you know?

• 11:46Hrishikesh Hirway?

  The story of Mutt continues after this.

• 11:52Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Song Exploder is sponsored by IBM. If you didn't already know, IBM stands for International Business Machines. And since its founding in 1911, they've been leading the evolution of technology, helping businesses leverage the latest tools and driving business success. It's in that spirit that IBM has been supporting The Recording Academy, solving real business challenges with innovative solutions like engaging music fans on Grammy.com with features like the Grammy IQ Trivia Game, or delivering personalized experiences to the 24,000 members of The Recording Academy, which in turn serves the entire music community. All of this helps make The Recording Academy more productive and innovative. That's how IBM is helping The Recording Academy create a smarter business.

• 12:39Hrishikesh Hirway?

  After you put together the bass and drums and the elements of the beat, what happened next?

• 12:44Speaker 03

  I felt like after we built it, we got out the way.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  Another person that helped with this song is Busy Crook. He's a great songwriter from Miami, rapper, artist.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Shout out to my boy Busy Crook, because we, you know, we send each other ideas through a text thread and have been doing that for years now. So we have a text thread for, I'll say about eight years of just endless verses.

• 13:08Speaker 03

  Paragraphs long, like it's crazy.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  And I knew what the hook was gonna say, but I needed verses that felt fun and playful. The first verse and I think the second verse were constructed years ago. It just never found a home on another song.

• 13:41Speaker 01

  I feel like finding something potent to say that's clever and cool takes more time. But melody is the fun part. So yeah, melody was like, that was my first mind. A lot of the stuff on this record was like my first mind and I refused to overthink it.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  I really attached myself to that lyric because right around that time, I woke up in the middle of the night to my dog barking. And I mean, he barks, but he was like going at it. So, you know, I put some shorts on just to see what's going on. And there's a grown man sitting on my couch and I'm like, hmm, all right.

• 14:27Hrishikesh Hirway?

  A stranger.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Absolute stranger, gang. So I'm like, what?

• 14:33Speaker 01

  I don't have a weapon nearby and I'm thinking about it and I'm saying to myself, all right, I just watched John Wick.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  And I did some random call, "Get him, boy." Like, like, like, kinda, my dog lit, I don't know, it was the energy, I guess. My boy comes running out the, the door, barking, and he's a big boy, so he's just barking and, you know, charging towards the living room. By the time my dog turned the corner, that man was out of my crib. So it was kinda fire. It was kinda fire that my boy Terry saved the day, man. He locked it in.

• 15:07Hrishikesh Hirway?

  When you're writing your own songs, do you find that you think about that process differently than when you're writing for other artists?

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I mean, I have free reign to mix genres in ways a lot of other artists aren't open to. I can say outlandish things that I think I would feel comfortable saying on a stage that maybe other artists wouldn't be open to. That was the reason why I started kinda stepping away from songwriting and productions, because I kinda didn't like how safe I had to be sometimes. It became a bit constraining, especially when everybody has these imaginary formulas on what a hit sounds like, when honestly, I feel like the best music comes from being honest, and I think a lot of people just kinda overthink it.

• 15:51Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Do Rob and Dave get involved in the vocal side of things? Or do you do that production on your own?

• 15:56Speaker 01

  Well, the way I work is selfish on purpose. So I'll be in my headphones, and I engineer myself, just so I don't get any doubt in the building, just in case I'm working through something. And so essentially, all they're hearing me do is just like riff and, you know, like, they're hearing like a little bleed from the headphones.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  We sit there patiently while he just records.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  So I started with the verses, and then I got to the hook. She said, "Take your time, what's the rush?"

• 16:27Speaker 01

  I said, "Baby, I'm a dog, I'm a mutt."

• 16:32Speaker 01

  It's got that silly, playful, flirty energy to it. Throughout the verse, I'm just talking about how it's hard for me to trust, because people can be kinda wild, but I see something in you, and I just wanna speed into things. Let's just get straight to the love, you know? Let's just fall in love, and if you wanna break my heart, it's all good. I don't care, you know? It's really slick. It's the slick talk, you might say, that'll make the girl you really like laugh, but also, also, who knows?

• 17:14Speaker 01

  And then Phelps, he never does this, but he was like, "Yo, what if you do like a call and response thing?"

• 17:20Speaker 03

  David told Leon, "We need something to connect the phrases." And I left to go get Chick-fil-A and I came back and the shit was like, "Ooh, ooh." I was like, "Whoa." Like, no, that shit is fire. He had harmonized them too.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  I used Verispeed and I did the falsetto part in the middle.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  It's like intricate stuff, but then it's also, it's play, man. We were at the playground and I was just playing and I was trying to impress my friends and say like, "Yo, look."

• 18:02Speaker 03

  His little falsetto he does at the top? Oh my gosh. It's crazy.

• 18:12Speaker 03

  So sweet. It's just like those money notes. Like, those runs were so crazy to me.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  Then I went back to my home and recorded the actual vocal that's out there in the world. That was a fun experience because I knew the vocal I put down just sounded like bourbon and I wanted it to be a little cleaner and just like really precise. I'm glad I took the time to re-record.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  The layers of this project show the vulnerability that are within a dog. I mean, I think anybody that owns a dog understands that even that vicious pit bull loves to cuddle. And I think there's a duality behind that.

• 19:38Hrishikesh Hirway?

  When you finished the song, did you already have a feeling that this was gonna be a hit?

• 19:44Speaker 01

  I knew I liked it. I would play it at my house and I could drive to it. You know, it was the kind of song that I could enjoy. But it's tough being like an alternative R&B artist, I would say. Sometimes like it was kind of hard being an outsider in the beginning. But around that time, I did a lot of self reflecting and a lot of dreaming. And the greatest thing about music to me is that you can bottle up an emotion and a feeling. And waking up that year, I was like, things are gonna change. I'm gonna be everything I'm capable of and I'm gonna continue to just have fun.

• 20:26Hrishikesh Hirway?

  And now here's "Mutt" by Leon Thomas in its entirety.

• 20:51Speaker 04

  She said, "Take your time, what's the rush?"

• 20:57Speaker 04

  I said, "Baby, I'm a dog, I'm a mutt."

• 21:02Speaker 04

  She said, "Take your time, what's the rush?"

• 21:07Speaker 04

  I said, "Baby, I'm a dog, I'm a mutt." I'm a dog, I'm a mutt. I can't smoke no red so far that my blunt is.

• 21:19Speaker 04

  I see past pretty faces, so I got trouble trusting. But I let my guard down for you. Said I put my guard down for you. Said I'll be vulnerable, so you can break my heart if you want to. She said, "Take your time, what's the rush?"

• 21:39Speaker 04

  I said, "Baby, I'm a dog, I'm my money."

• 21:45Speaker 04

  She said, "Take your time, what's the rush?"

• 21:50Speaker 04

  I said, "Baby, I'm a dog, I'm my money." I'm a dog, I'm my money. New crib, time to come through, it's time, let's break it in. Thirty-two, like my pants size, 'cause the niggas try breaking in.

• 22:07Speaker 04

  New condo, say your name at the front, you can stay if you want. It's been one of those nights, one of those nights I ain't had in a minute. It's been a minute, had to pop a shroom, the baby ain't defending.

• 22:22Speaker 04

  But it's never the same as the first time we did it, first time we did it. But I let my guard down for you, said I put my guard down for you. Said I'll be vulnerable, so you can break my heart if you want to. She said, "Take your time, what's the rush?"

• 22:41Speaker 05

  Take your time, what's the rush?

• 22:43Speaker 04

  I said, "Baby, I'm a dog, I'm my money."

• 22:49Speaker 04

  She said, "Take your time, what's the rush?"

• 22:54Speaker 04

  I said, "Baby, I'm a dog, I'm my money." I'm a dog, I'm my money.

• 23:44Hrishikesh Hirway?

  To learn more, visit songexploder.net. You'll find links to buy or stream Mutt, and you can watch the music video.

• 23:52Hrishikesh Hirway?

  This episode was produced by me, Craig Ely, Mary Dolan, and Kathleen Smith, with production assistance from Tiger Bisco. The episode artwork is by Carlos Larma, and I made the show's theme music and logo. Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts. You can learn more about our shows at radiotopia.fm. If you'd like to hear more from me, I write a newsletter, where I write about the making of some of these episodes, and about music and film and the creative process. You can find a link to the newsletter on the Song Exploder website. You can also get a Song Exploder shirt at songexploder.net/shirt. I'm Rishi Kesh Hirway. Thanks for listening.

• 24:49Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Thanks again to IBM for their support of both Song Exploder and the Grammys. IBM helps smarter businesses like The Recording Academy find new ways to connect with and leverage their data wherever it lives. Let's create smarter business. IBM.