Sabrina Carpenter - Please Please Please

Sabrina Carpenter is a singer, songwriter, and actress. She had a huge year with her album Short N Sweet, which came out in August 2024. It debuted at #1, and went platinum within a month. At the upcoming Grammys, she’s nominated for Song of the Year, Record of the Year, Album of the Year, and more. One of her big hits is “Please Please Please,” which she wrote with Amy Allen and producer Jack Antonoff. He’s won Producer of the Year at the Grammys for the last three years in a row. For this episode, I talked to Sabrina and Jack about everything that went into making “Please Please Please.” For more, visit songexploder.net/sabrina-carpenter.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Hrishikesh Hirway?

  You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and, piece by piece, tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishi Kesh Hirway.

• 0:11Hrishikesh Hirway?

  You might have heard me say that Song Exploder is part of Radiotopia from PRX, and I wanted to explain what that means and how it connects to you. PRX is a public media nonprofit, so they're focused on supporting work that serves the public interest. And they started Radiotopia as a way to empower independent podcast makers like me. Here on Song Exploder, we try to book artists from a really wide range of music and backgrounds and ideas, and we spend a long time editing together each episode. I think that's what makes the show special, but it's not a great formula if you're trying to maximize profit. But I've been able to keep this show going despite that because of the support of Radiotopia and listeners like you. Radiotopia sells ads for the show, but those come and go,

• 0:55Hrishikesh Hirway?

  and nothing is as reliable as the listeners who believe in what we're doing. So if you care about this show and if you care about supporting independent media, please visit radiotopia.fm/donate. You can chip in any amount that works for you. It all makes a difference. Again, it's radiotopia.fm/donate. Thank you so much.

• 1:18Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Thanks to Stio for sponsoring Song Exploder. I took a trip to Iceland this summer, and because it was the summer, I didn't really think about dressing for the cold. Even though I was hiking and I was planning on seeing some glaciers, I thought, it's August. But then I got there, and I realized I made a huge mistake. Now, though, I have a Stio hometown hooded jacket, and I just wished I'd gotten it before my trip. All of Stio's clothes are designed and tested in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, by locals who live, work, and ski in below-freezing temperatures. I'm headed back out into the cold this winter, but now I'll have my insulated hooded Stio jacket. Ski season's almost here, so gear up now, the way the locals do.

• 2:02Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Go to stio.com/songexploder for 20% off your order. That's S-T-I-O dot com slash songexploder. Stio dot com slash songexploder. Stio, designed and tested in Jackson Hole. This episode is sponsored by LinkedIn. Anyone who's ever had to spend money on marketing knows how tricky it can be to feel like you've spent that money wisely. Well, with LinkedIn Ads, you can be sure that you'll get a great return on your investment. You can target your campaigns by company, industry, job title, and more. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn Ads and get a $250 credit for the next one.

• 2:45Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Just go to LinkedIn.com/songexploder. That's LinkedIn.com/songexploder. Terms and conditions apply. I have a niece who's nine, and she told me the other day that she loves "Please, Please, Please" by Sabrina Carpenter, but she knows that it, quote, "has a bad word in it." And the following conversation, talking about that song, also has bad words in it. So, Asha and everyone else, just a heads up, this episode contains explicit language.

• 3:17Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Before the day that you all started working on this song, was there a thought or an idea that was in your mind before you ever got to the songwriting stage?

• 3:25Speaker 01

  I think it was just such a specific thing that I was going through, just like feeling like as a young woman, one day you can be so confident and detached, and the next day, you're, for lack of a better term, a desperate hoe. And it was something that was making us laugh. And I feel like this song was the perfect way to kind of just lay it all out on the table and also talk about something so openly that maybe we're normally just afraid of saying, which is like, sometimes you're just embarrassed by men.

• 3:56Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Sabrina Carpenter is a singer, songwriter, and actress. She had a huge year with her album, Short and Sweet, which came out in August 2024. It debuted at number one and went platinum within a month. At the upcoming Grammys, she's nominated for Song of the Year, Record of the Year, Album of the Year, and more. One of her big hits is "Please, Please, Please," which she wrote with Amy Allen and producer Jack Antonoff. He's won the Grammy for Producer of the Year for the last three years in a row. For this episode, I talk to Sabrina and Jack Antonoff about everything that went into making "Please, Please, Please."

• 4:51Hrishikesh Hirway?

  How did you two first meet? How did you first get in contact and decide to work together?

• 4:56Speaker 02

  I first saw you at my show.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I came to your show, Radio City Musical.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  So this was probably like 2021. And I was playing a show and I couldn't see much, but I could see the big blond head of hair.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  You absolutely could not see me from the stage.

• 5:10Speaker 02

  I think maybe someone afterwards told me you were there.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  I think that's what it was.

• 5:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'd been aware of Sabrina's music and loved her work for a really long time. And then like two weeks later, I went to this party and then Sabrina was there for some reason.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  I remember you said hello to me and you said that you were a big fan of mine. And I was like, I genuinely was so taken aback. He was talking to me about songs that I really cared about and parts of songs I really cared about. And yeah, I was just really excited because I've loved everything he's ever made, pretty much except that one thing. And then, you have to guess which one.

• 5:41Speaker 02

  And then we actually got together to work. And that day, as far as I remember, Lider Girls and Please, Please, Please happened.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  And the beginning of Slim Pickens.

• 5:48Speaker 02

  And the beginning of Slim Pickens, which is a pretty crazy studio day.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:51Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah, I mean, even to write two and a half songs, even if one and a half of them don't come out, just to get through that much work is a lot, but let alone three songs that actually make it.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  Not just make it, but are three of like my absolute favorite songs.

• 6:05Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah. Was there any kind of nervousness on either of your parts when that day came?

• 6:10Speaker 01

  There's always a little bit of just hoping that there's good chemistry when it comes to writing, before you ever write with someone. But when I first met Jack, it was very clear that we were just both sonically so on the same page. And everyone being on the same page is something that you can't really.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  No, that shit just is or isn't.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  That just happens.

• 6:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:31Hrishikesh Hirway?

  That kind of chemistry between two people is hard enough to find, but it wasn't just the two of you. Amy Allen was in the room writing with you as well. How did that come about? How did she end up writing with you on this song?

• 6:42Speaker 01

  Amy and I had been writing together a lot. She's so smart and she's so fearless. And I specifically knew that, you know, after I had met Jack, that Amy would be somebody that he also really, really clicked with and appreciated. And we just had a golden moment of the three of us all being super aligned.

• 7:03Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Well, can you tell me how that day started then? Was there a conversation between the three of you about what you wanted to write about?

• 7:09Speaker 01

  I definitely went into those days with so many ideas. But there's also something that's so magical about just letting Jack start playing and just starting to find your way there naturally. Like, that initial idea came from those chorus chords.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember very vividly Jack playing these chords.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  And Sabrina had this idea.

• 7:38Speaker 01

  I had the lyric "please, please, please" before I knew what I ever wanted the song to be. (singing) Please, please, please, don't prove I'm right. And then that week, it so happened to be when I was dealing with a specific scenario that I could really go, "Oh, isn't this funny? Like, this feels not only good to write about, but it felt really honest." And then, on top of it, the way that we were able to make the song so playful, it really felt like electricity. And I remember, even more specifically, us getting to a place where it felt like the chorus was just coming out so quickly. (singing) And please, please, please, don't bring me to tears when I just did my makeup so nice.

• 8:23Speaker 02

  I was playing things and just watching Sabrina and seeing what was like lighting her up.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  Because I gave him a real mean face when I don't like something.

• 8:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like her and Amy are kind of locking in and working on things, and I go off and I'm starting to make noises.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  He moves like a little Energizer Bunny sometimes. He really is just moving around a lot. And then he'll be like, "Bring in the cello." "Actually, no, let me get the bass."

• 8:47Speaker 01

  "Actually, okay, let me try the synth."

• 8:51Speaker 02

  I feel a lot of anxiety, good anxiety, because I feel like when you're working on a song, in the stages that like it is or isn't gonna launch is a really anxious moment. Positive anxiety, but like, I'm just like, not thinking about my body. I'm not thinking about like breathing, I'm not thinking about anything. Like, literally, I could be like knocking into something. I just need to hear something coming out of the speakers that is proof of life. You know, I'd be doing things, I'm doing things, then maybe I'd do something, and then everyone would kind of stop what they're doing and be like, "What's that?"

• 9:19Speaker 01

  Like, the guitar riff in the intro.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  And I was like, "That's so cool."

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Any great song that I've ever grown up loving has this iconic musical riff that you get so excited the second you hear that riff. You're like, oh, my favorite song's about to start. And it's that for me.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  But essentially, you're looking for that all the time. Just these things that are gonna put the song in its best outfit. And for Please, it was like, it was somewhere between singer-songwriter, country song, band in a bar with a steady drum beat.

• 10:01Speaker 02

  And then like the wobbly synths.

• 10:05Speaker 02

  I was like, if I can just get it right, then I know Sabrina and Amy are gonna go to the moon with it.

• 10:28Speaker 02

  I got really excited with the way the lyrics sounded because I think Sabrina's voice is incredibly modern and incredibly classic at the same time. And I think that there's something about very directly playing with both of those things, quite literally, like here's an acoustic guitar and a live drum, which could have been played in 1972 or 2050.

• 10:54Speaker 02

  But then, all of a sudden, here's Sabrina talking about something that's right now. But then she's also doing a run that's incredibly classic. But then we add a synth that feels like incredibly shocking.

• 11:08Speaker 02

  We're specifically clashing extremely modern and extremely classic things, but almost in an absurd way, the way they're happening.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  I think the thing I always struggled with since I was young and since I started writing songs was that I craved wanting to be able to accomplish kind of multiple things at once and still have it be something that felt fluid. And it's really cool to have someone understand that. I remember when I was 12, which is so crazy, but I signed with my label when I was 12, like a crazy person.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  And I remember it was just such a, such a thing of like having to know your genre and stay in that lane. And like, it was almost as if they expected every song to sound like that same thing. And that was really hard for me for a really long time. That was why when I did start making music, I remember always wanting to kind of just be like, well, I have to make the same song. You know what I mean? Like, I want to make something that feels like multifaceted and something that feels different. I heard that you're an actor, so act like a stand-up guy. Whatever devils inside you, don't let them out tonight. I tell them it's just your culture and everyone rolls their eyes. Yeah, I know.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  The women I grew up idolizing, even my mother, always had that, let me give it to him straight, mentality. And I love when I can reflect that in something that like can be sung so sweetly and then can be blunt two seconds later.

• 12:44Speaker 02

  I felt bad for the narrator and scared of her.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Thank you, thanks.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  And I liked that, the very specific tone that I think I get a lot from Dolly, where I'm like, oh, that's so sad, but also I'm not about to fuck with you.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  I mean, she's queen of telling the gods honest truth. And then you're sort of like, wait, did that just come out of that, that sweet woman? Like, what's going on? And the most exciting part was the second verse, because that was literally, Amy and I wrote that, I mean, five minutes while you were changing the key.

• 13:14Speaker 02

  Well, that was one of those great accidents where it's like, we were fucking around with the key. We're like, where is this best? And so then we had these like two versions of the songs in two different keys. And it's very odd, but I think it worked so great because the lyrics that Sabrina has in the second verse is a dream. It's like, it's not reality. It's like an idea.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  It's like, she's like, having this fantasy. What if we did this? What if we stayed inside? What if, you know, we started the ceiling fan? That can be nice. So the chords like lift into this place that feels suspended from the grounding reality songs in A.

• 13:45Speaker 03

  Please, please, please.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  But then all of a sudden you're in C.

• 13:50Speaker 03

  Well, I have a fun idea, babe. Maybe just stay inside. I know you're craving some fresh air, but the ceiling fan is so nice.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  It's not a natural modulation. And then it's even more crazy because then at that point, you would stay in the modulated key for the chorus. But then we go back down to A, which is another insane choice.

• 14:08Speaker 03

  Please, please, please don't prove I'm right.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  I realized the reason why it works is because then it's like the bubbles burst and we're back in reality. She was like, no, we're back at the table with her. And she's saying, please, please, please, you know, don't embarrass me. And that was one of those things that in the room where we were like, why is this fucking working?

• 14:28Speaker 01

  I think super important to note, it's all happening at lightning speed. Like we weren't thinking so in depth of the meaning behind all of these choices and why they worked in the moment at that time.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  No, they made us laugh.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  They just made us laugh. They made us scream. They made us dance around the room. And that was, that was why we knew that it was what it needed to be. The only thing that was something that I felt like was a little more carefully crafted was from heartbreak is one thing, my ego's another. I beg you, don't embarrass me, motherfucker.

• 14:57Speaker 03

  Heartbreak is one thing, my ego's another. I beg you, don't embarrass me, motherfucker.

• 15:08Speaker 02

  Hey, when did you come up with motherfucker? Because that's something I don't remember.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  You blacked out?

• 15:14Speaker 02

  I just, I remember like, I can remember you going, please? And thinking to myself like, oh, that's great. But I don't remember the moment where you were like, motherfucker. And I want to.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Well, we had heartbreak is one thing, my ego's another, because that's something that I said earlier that day.

• 15:30Speaker 02

  Which I think is always how great things happen. But like so many of the lyrics in those songs are literal things that you were saying in conversation.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  If you think about that, it's actually truly just a conversation with myself. And that melody is such like a little like rainbow. Like it literally just goes

• 15:50Speaker 01

  and then motherfucker came out like an ad lib. It literally just, just came out as we were finding the melody. Because initially. We were ending that melody a lot higher. Never went down a motherfucker until we kind of just were like, let's push it. Let's see how far we can, we can start up here and end super low. And it just was, it was so necessary for that little hic in me. And I think these were all day one vocals.

• 16:15Hrishikesh Hirway?

  I think it's so cool to hear that these are day one vocals because there are choices that you're making in terms of when you go from singing to talking. And, you know, there's even, just one of my favorite moments is the note on stand up guy, the way you changed the, let me just play this part.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  I heard that you're an actor, so act like a stand up guy. Whatever devil's inside.

• 16:35Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Just that stand up, the little.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:39Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah, no change there, which is not in the first time that you do it. There are just little touches and flourishes. It's very hard to predict where you're going to go. So I was wondering, like, is that something that, you know, you just like develop a ton in the off season so that when it comes time to record on the day, you're going to go wherever you want? Or are these things that just sort of like happened instinctively? And if you had thought about the more, maybe you would have done something differently?

• 17:04Speaker 02

  I'm dying, I'm over there with him. I'm dying to hear this.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Well, you, I feel like there's certain things that I feel really specific about being more methodical. And then other things that feel like they need to be born out of a take where I'm just not thinking and I just do it and I just try things. So the first thing that you just pointed out, like, that was just me playing off of what Jack was playing. I heard that you're an actor, so act like a stand up guy. Whatever devil's inside. So that wasn't something that was thought of or thought through. It was just a choice in the moment. So much of it is just like the initial instinct or, or the way that I would really say those things in real life blended into the way I would sing them. But also a lot of, a lot of my favorite thing to do in songs is act.

• 17:47Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  And I think that's really helped me in my songwriting is to perform the song, to actually picture having these conversations with this person as I'm singing it because then I can be as expressive or sarcastic and my, my voice can hit notes that it would hit conversationally it just as much as, you know, I'm hitting the notes that I'm meant to be singing.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  And one thing to add to that about day one takes is like, the more you know a song, the less like afraid you are of it, whether you literally know it or whether you can just feel it. Sabrina is singing the song for the first time, second time she's ever sung the song. There's no amount of surgery you could do to remove that vulnerability. The recording will live forever with this take of this person who's like, you know what, fuck it, I'm gonna just sing this chorus. And your like soul can feel like the person like diving off the cliff and singing that chorus. And I think that resonates with people.

• 18:54Hrishikesh Hirway?

  More with Sabrina Carpenter and Jack Antonoff after this.

• 19:00Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Song Exploder is sponsored by DistroKid. If you're an independent artist, DistroKid is now offering a new way to start selling merch without dealing with inventory or running an online store. DistroKid Direct automatically turns your existing album artwork into merch products, like shirts and hoodies, posters, totes, all kinds of things. And you choose what to sell, you set your prices, you connect PayPal, and DistroKid handles the printing, the shipping, and the customer support. They don't take a commission, so you keep 100% of your merch sales. It's a simple way to add another revenue stream to your music career without adding more work to your plate. Artists can learn more and launch

• 19:42Hrishikesh Hirway?

  a merch store at distrokid.com/direct. This year, my wife and I are hosting Thanksgiving at our house. And in anticipation of that, I've already started some of the planning. And one of the things that I realized I wanted to have was some kind of small but elegant serving tray that I could put snacks and stuff on while we're just hanging out before the meal starts. So I turned to Wayfair, and I found the perfect thing. These small wooden plates made from acacia. They match the rest of the vibe of my house, and I'm gonna be using them even when it's not Thanksgiving. For all things hosting, Wayfair delivers high-quality, customer-trusted products for your home, so you can host and celebrate without the stress. If you're hosting for any of the many holidays coming up,

• 20:27Hrishikesh Hirway?

  take a look at the website to browse for ideas or look for something very specific. You can use filters and reviews and photos from other customers to help you find the perfect thing. When you're refreshing your home this holiday season, Wayfair delivers exactly what you need. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R dot com. Today's episode is sponsored by Function Health, and I've been a Function Health member for over a year now. I have to say, I'm pretty grateful to have a service that lets me track my health, because it's not really my natural inclination to do it myself. And especially around the holidays and holiday feasts and travel and vacation, I have to keep my health a priority. There's a saying that I think about a lot.

• 21:11Hrishikesh Hirway?

  That which can be measured can be improved. And Function measures all of these aspects of your health, so you can not only gauge things like your metabolism, your glucose, your insulin, and your heart health, you can actually keep that data in mind as you move through your daily life and make better choices. So make knowing your health part of your holiday plans. Function gives you access to over 160 lab tests for $365 a year, about a dollar a day. Join at functionhealth.com/songexploder and use the code SONGEXPLOTER25 for a $25 credit.

• 21:52Hrishikesh Hirway?

  I'd love to listen to the second verse with you, because I want to ask you about the back and forth that you do with your backing vocals here.

• 21:59Speaker 03

  Well, I have a fun idea, babe. Maybe just stay inside. I know you're craving some fresh air, but the ceiling fan is so nice. And we could live so happily. If no one knows that you're with me. I'm just kidding, but really. Kinda.

• 22:17Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 22:20Speaker 02

  Tell me about this part.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  He is having fun. Amy's laughing in the back. Like, it's just like, there's like a little bit of truth to the joke. I mean, the background vocals in this song are some of my favorite things I've ever made. And like, you kind of just try shit, you throw it at the wall, and sometimes it's too much, and sometimes it's just enough. And that was kind of one of those moments, and it just adds to the story and it makes it feel like a real person.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  I got really excited with how perfect her voice is. I was like, there's a lot of space here to have the song feel kind of drunk around her because she's so rock solid and the way she harmonizes with herself is like so masterful and perfect. So it's like, it became about duality. It's like you have the lydrum being very steady, and you have a live drum playing around it.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  The more steady lydrum was, the more I loosened up my guitar picking.

• 23:25Speaker 02

  I really wanted you to hear like the person in the room.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  It sounds like Sabrina with a band.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  I mean, that was my favorite thing about it. I remember him playing drums live and just like watching him go ham, and it was just one of my favorite things about, about Jack in general. But like, it gives this song so much more life and it feels like you're hearing a real person singing about a real life experience when you can kind of hear like the little imperfections that he leaves in intentionally. Like the room noise and just like the sound of him actually playing the instruments and like banging on keys a little too hard, just those little things that really add so much character as opposed to everything being kind of so perfect.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  It's like this drunk feeling, but in the best way. It's like you're tipsy, but it's a good feeling.

• 24:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, like I always want that feeling, like right on the edge.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  Especially about a song like this, especially about a song that was like desperately comical and you're sort of needing to like laugh while you're talking about something that you could probably cry about or be angry at. And it's all those emotions and you kind of want it to reflect in not only the chords, but the way that they're being played.

• 24:42Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah, I'd love to listen to these guitars, Jack, that you're playing.

• 24:48Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Like even that, Sabrina, like you're saying, the beginning of the track isn't just like coming in clean.

• 24:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 24:56Speaker 02

  I'd like to point out, because there might be someone listening right now that might be like, "Little pitchy, my guy." It's very intentional because-

• 25:03Speaker 01

  Tell them.

• 25:03Speaker 02

  Well, I would like to. So when you have a singer that is pitch fucking perfect and very few are, but Sabrina is, it leaves so much space to play around. I'm playing the guitar pretty hard and kind of bending, you know, my fingers a lot. So they bend a little bit at a tune, but what it does is it frames the things that are pitch perfect, which you always want. So that's why I like those takes not to be too clean or like perfectly in tune, because if every instrument is perfect in tune, then it can get a little bit like factory made.

• 25:37Hrishikesh Hirway?

  I think that there's a feeling in pop music, and especially really commercially successful pop music, that everything must have gone through a million hands and a million producers and gotten quantized and tuned within an inch of its life so that it can be as accessible as possible for the largest number of people as possible. And I feel like this song is a very clear example of that not being the case.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  Well, that's just like a school of thought. Like there are basically two schools of thought. Essentially, you think people are smart or you think people are stupid. Right? If you think people are stupid and you assume the worst of them, then you will dumb things down and clean it up and, you know, make it out of chemicals and serve them garbage, right? But I think people are brilliant and anyone I've ever been in the room with shares that belief. So we're sitting there pushing ourselves to the absolute brink to make something as interesting, or beautiful, or evocative, or sonically fascinating as humanly possible. So it's not a rejection to pop culture, pop music. We're not sitting there being like, "Let's make it weird and bend these notes so it freaks people out." It's literally,

• 26:46Speaker 02

  "Let's play it like this. Let's sing it like this. Let's do it like this because this will be the most emotionally resonant."

• 26:52Speaker 01

  I just know from personal experience, because there were so many years, I think, where I was sort of told, "This is what people want. This is what people are looking for." And then, I mean, literally, if you tell me that, I will go do the opposite because it's pretty much always proven to be correct. And I don't do that in a rebellious way. I do it, I do it in a way to preserve my sanity, my own artistry, or what will keep me unique to myself.

• 27:23Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Jack, you kind of set up this tension between the locked-in groove of the Lindrum and then the way you're playing the acoustic guitars. Where in that continuum did you, were you thinking about the synthesizers? Were you thinking of them as being an element that would be more locked in? Or did you want to have those electronic elements feel human as well?

• 27:44Speaker 02

  I really thought a lot about the time period of music when things like the Jupiter, the Juno were entering rooms for the first time.

• 27:51Hrishikesh Hirway?

  The synthesizers you were using?

• 27:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, one thing I love about like ELO or certain Beatles recordings, or this time period is like, someone's coming in with something, no one knows how to work it, they plug it in, and they're just like, "Holy shit," and they're messing with it until they hear something that just clicks. And something about this song made me want to play synth on it. And to me, the synth is one of the more human things because it's played so like strange. It's like a man fighting with the instrument.

• 28:20Speaker 02

  I just thought, "What if I create these like bubbling sounds around Sabrina's voice?"

• 28:42Speaker 01

  We recorded this rather quickly, but I think over time it grew. And so we found new things to add to it after that first initial day. I definitely knew from the moment that I left that I wanted a bridge, but I think we ran out of time that day. I think someone had a dinner. It always happens.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  Someone? Why are you looking at me? It wasn't me.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  Because no one else is in this room right now.

• 29:03Speaker 02

  I think it was you.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  It wasn't. Probably was, honestly.

• 29:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think you had a dinner.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  I might have had a dinner that night. But either way, I think what's really exciting for me too is taking space from a song and being able to sit with it for a couple of weeks. Or in this case, I think it was probably about a month later, we were able to get in. We finished the bridge in Los Angeles here at Jack's studio.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  That was scary.

• 29:24Speaker 01

  I remember you were hesitant about.

• 29:26Speaker 02

  I was freaking out. Okay, so you have to understand, we have the whole song except the bridge slash outro. And everyone was like, this is a little short. And it was clear that the song could have used one more thing, but it was like such a house of cards that I was pretty freaked out. But you really were like, I got this, we're doing this.

• 29:43Speaker 01

  I knew that there was more to say, and I also knew that the journey the song takes you on was already so, we were soaring, that it was like, why not? Let's see if we can soar a little higher. And if we do, and we land, then we just made something even better.

• 30:08Speaker 02

  You want.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  That's the pinnacle for me now.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then that was also just, I've definitely said this to many men in my life. If you want to go and be stupid, don't do it in front of me.

• 30:20Speaker 02

  And I've said to many people, if you don't want to cry to my music.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Don't make me hate you prolifically.

• 30:35Speaker 02

  That, I think, right there is the genius to Sabrina, those two lines. The first one is absolutely beautiful, heartbreaking. Everyone knows it, everyone's felt it. The artist saying something better than you could ever say it. And then the second one is that and also so funny. And a big thing that working with Sabrina reminds me of is that all my favorite artists know exactly when to be funny, because then it makes the really sad line that much more sad.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  I remember being so excited because I feel like that song was a song that I'd waited my whole life to make.

• 31:28Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Same.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Genuinely, I still feel that way.

• 31:31Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Well, I was wondering, Sabrina, if you had to describe what this song was to someone who hasn't heard it yet, what would you tell them? Like, what's this song about?

• 31:39Speaker 01

  It's sort of a woman kind of already knowing what she's in for and just kind of saying it out loud so she can kind of hold accountability for herself at the end of the day. Like, she already knows she's gonna get into trouble, so she might as well just own it. And I think that, for me, I feel that way anytime I enter a relationship or anytime I start falling for somebody. I know that love and pain always go hand in hand, and so I think you're kind of mentally preparing yourself to be like, you know what? I'm just gonna enjoy this while I'm in it, because it's only a matter of time before they do something stupid or they say something to piss you off. And that's just the reality of relationships. This is a comical reoccurrence in my life and a lot of my friends' lives.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  So I think it's more about that honesty with yourself and just allowing yourself not to take it too seriously, even though it might be, it might be actually hurting you.

• 32:33Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Do you find that the fact that you're drawing from multiple experiences, do you start to think that, like, it's a type of relationship that you're drawn to? Or this is just universal, no matter who you're in a relationship with?

• 32:44Speaker 01

  Well, now we're getting into therapy territory. And if you're asking if this is a common thread in my life, I would say that this one is nearly autobiographical, so it's, it's hard to get it twisted, I guess.

• 33:04Hrishikesh Hirway?

  And now, here's "Please, Please, Please" by Sabrina Carpenter, in its entirety.

• 33:27Speaker 03

  I know I have good judgment, I know I have good taste It's funny and it's ironic that only I feel that way I promise I'm not your different And everyone makes mistakes, but just don't

• 33:45Speaker 03

  I heard that you're an actor, so act like a stand-up guy Whatever devil's inside you, don't let him out tonight I tell them it's just your culture, and everyone rolls their eyes Yeah, I know All I'm asking, baby Please, please, please, don't prove I'm right

• 34:12Speaker 03

  Please, please, please, don't bring me to tears When I just did my makeup so nice Heartbreak is one thing, my ego's another I beg you, don't embarrass me, motherfucker

• 34:33Speaker 03

  Please, please, please

• 34:39Speaker 03

  I have a fun idea, babe, maybe just stay inside I know you're craving some fresh air, but the ceiling fan is so nice And we could live so happily, if no one knows that you're with me I'm just kidding, but really, really, really Please, please, please, don't prove I'm right

• 35:06Speaker 03

  Please, please, please, don't bring me to tears When I just did my makeup so nice Heartbreak is one thing, my ego's another I beg you, don't embarrass me, motherfucker

• 35:27Speaker 03

  Please, please, please

• 36:15Hrishikesh Hirway?

  To learn more, visit songexploder.net. You'll find links to buy or stream Please, Please, Please, and you can watch the music video.

• 36:24Hrishikesh Hirway?

  This episode was produced by Craig Ely, Theo Balcom, Kathleen Smith, Mary Dolan, and myself. Our production assistant is Tiger Biscop. The episode artwork is by Carlos Lerma, and I made the show's theme music and logo. This is the last episode of the year, and I just want to thank you for listening, and I want to thank all the artists who have been on the show this year. And I really want to thank Craig, Theo, Kathleen, Mary, Tiger, and Carlos, all my friends who have worked so hard on the podcast with me. Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts. You can learn more about all of our shows at radiotopia.fm. And if you'd like to hear more from me, you can sign up for my newsletter. You can find

• 37:09Hrishikesh Hirway?

  a link to it on the Song Exploder website. You can also follow me and Song Exploder on Instagram. And if you want to support the show another way, you can get Song Exploder merch, which includes a t-shirt, sweatshirt, tank top, a whole bunch of different options, at songexploder.net/shirt. I'm Rishi Kesh Hirway. Thanks for listening.