How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained

Listening to music with air pods or headphones can damage your hearing. To prevent this, you need to understand the common causes of hearing loss. This episode begins with an explanation so you can avoid the problem while still enjoying your favorite music. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hearing-loss/symptoms-causes/syc-20373072 How many times have you heard people say, “You can’t change other people!” Well, that’s not exactly true according to my guest, Peter Bregman. Peter is a well-known consultant, coach and author who believes you CAN get other people to change if you do it right. While his method may not work all the time, it can increase your chances of helping other people make important, positive changes. Peter Bregman is author of the several books including You Can Change Other People (https://amzn.to/3GGpgUh). Science can explain a lot. And as you listen to this episode, you are going to hear scientific explanations regarding everyday things in your life like plastics, old book smell and what makes a food a superfood. It’s interesting stuff from my guest Dr. Joe Schwarcz. Joe is director of McGill University’s Office for Science and Society and the author of several books. His latest is, Superfoods, Silkworms, and Spandex: Science and Pseudoscience in Everyday Life (https://amzn.to/3Zoc3ei). You have likely heard reports that people who have pets are healthier and live longer. But what’s the connection? How does having a pet do that? Listen as I explain the several ways pets are beneficial and how having a dog could save your life as well as improve your child’s social skills. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326609#Dogs-an-important-factor-in-rehabilitation? PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS!!! INDEED: Get a $75 SPONSORED JOB CREDIT to get your jobs more visibility at https://Indeed.com/SOMETHING Support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Terms & conditions apply. AURA: Save on the perfect gift by visiting https://AuraFrames.com to get $35-off Aura’s best-selling Carver Mat frames by using promo code SOMETHING at checkout! SHOPIFY: Sign up for a $1 per-month trial period at https://Shopify.com/sysk . Go to SHOPIFY.com/sysk to grow your business – no matter what stage you’re in! MINT MOBILE: Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at https://MintMobile.com/something! $45 upfront payment required (equivalent to $15/mo.). New customers on first 3 month plan only. Additional taxes, fees, & restrictions apply. HERS: Hers is changing women's healthcare by providing access to GLP-1 weekly injections with the same active ingredient as Ozempic and Wegovy, as well as oral medication kits. Start your free online visit today at https://forhers.com/sysk DELL: It's your last chance to snag Dell Technologies’ lowest prices of the year before the holidays! If you've been waiting for an AI-ready PC, this is their biggest sale of the year! Shop now at https://Dell.com/deals PROGRESSIVE: The Name Your Price tool from Progressive can help you save on car insurance! You just tell Progressive what you want to pay and get options within your budget. Try it today at https://Progressive.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mike Carruthers?

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• 1:27Mike Carruthers?

  Today on Something You Should Know, the problem with listening to music with headphones and how to solve it. Then, can you really change other people? Sometimes, if you know the process.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  There is no point in this process where I am telling her what to do or giving her advice. I'm engaging with her in thinking about it and asking certain questions that always keep her in control.

• 1:55Mike Carruthers?

  Also, you've heard that having a pet is good for your health. So how does that work exactly? And some everyday science explained on things like plastics, old book smell, and superfoods.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  No food really merits being labeled as an angel or a devil because it's possible to eat blueberries every day and still have a terrible diet. And it's possible to never eat blueberries and still have a good diet.

• 2:22Mike Carruthers?

  All this today on Something You Should Know.

• 2:27Mike Carruthers?

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• 3:57Mike Carruthers?

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• 4:23Mike Carruthers?

  Hey there, welcome to Something You Should Know. When you listen to music, there's a pretty good chance that you listen on headphones or earbuds. I think I, whenever I listen to music practically, I'm listening on headphones or earbuds. And the question is, does listening to music on headphones or earbuds cause hearing loss? Well, it does for a lot of people. You see, according to experts at Harvard, regardless of the source of the sound, hearing loss is the result of three factors: volume of sound, the duration of the sound, and how far away the source of the sound is from your ears.

• 5:03Mike Carruthers?

  Well, if you're listening to music on headphones, the volume can be pretty loud, the duration can be pretty long, and it would be hard to be any closer to your ear than headphones get. So you see the problem. There's an additional issue. Portable music devices have updated over the years to adapt to higher qualities of digital sound. With old audio devices, when the sound got too loud, the music didn't sound right. The bass would often distort and it would just sound horrible in your ear, so you would naturally lower the volume. But now, with digital sound, you can turn up the volume and it doesn't distort. So there's a tendency to turn up the volume.

• 5:47Mike Carruthers?

  Just be aware that listening to loud music for long periods of time on headphones or earbuds will take a toll on your hearing. It pretty much has to, and that is something you should know.

• 6:03Mike Carruthers?

  I'm sure you've heard the common wisdom that you cannot change other people, that generally people don't change, and if they do change, they have to change themselves, that trying to change other people is a waste of time.

• 6:18Mike Carruthers?

  Well, meet someone who disagrees with that. Peter Bregman. Peter's a well-respected consultant and coach who has authored several books, one of which is called "You Can Change Other People." And as he'll explain, it's not about manipulating people. And, well, I'll let him explain it. Hi, Peter. Welcome to Something You Should Know.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  Thanks so much for having me, Michael. It's great to be here.

• 6:42Mike Carruthers?

  So, since there is this common belief that you cannot change other people, explain why you can and why you would and why you'd want to. And what's the point of all of this?

• 6:54Speaker 01

  You can change other people. It's just that the way we try to change other people doesn't work because we're doing and saying the wrong things, and we're actually creating resistance. People don't resist change. They resist being changed. And so, I change all the time. But if you try to change me, forget it. I'm gonna fight because that's my loss of control. So, we have to change people in ways that doesn't elicit the kind of resistance we end up fighting against.

• 7:23Mike Carruthers?

  It also seems, though, that one of the reasons people don't change is that when you try to change somebody, you're trying to change them to fit your needs and wants and desires. It may have nothing to do with them. You want them to do what you want to do.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  Exactly. And this process is not a magic manipulative process where I'm gonna give you three words to say and people will instantly hypnotically change. It does drastically increase your hit rate in helping people change. But it is ultimately about them. So, most often, we want people to change, right? Because there's something we're frustrated about. But that frustration is coming out of a place of care. Usually, when you're frustrated or angry about something, it's because you care deeply about something. And almost always, the thing you care about is in your mutual interest as well as their individual interest. But it's not being framed that way at all because you're coming off as sort of a critic of their behavior

• 8:22Speaker 01

  as opposed to an ally working with them.

• 8:26Mike Carruthers?

  And so we've been talking so far in kind of the abstract. Can you give me an example of how you would change somebody? So I get a better sense of what you're talking about.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Uh, sure. And you know what I'll do? I'll give you an example that fits your category of something where I want someone to change, but they don't necessarily want to change. And I'll up the ante and I'll make it my, my daughter who's 19, right? So like, so now I want to change one of my kids. You know, one day I went downstairs in the morning and I found her eating a chocolate chip cookie and for breakfast and she looked up at me with this guilty expression. And she said, yeah, this is the last one. I stayed up till four o'clock in the morning and baked a plate, you know, baked a sheet of chocolate chip cookies and ate them all.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  And, you know, my instinct is to immediately criticize, like to be like, what are you thinking? Like, you don't want, you know, you told me you want to lose a little bit of weight and you're, this is how you're doing it? And like, seriously, chocolate chip cookie? Is this what I've taught you? Chocolate chip cookies in the morning for breakfast? But I immediately shortcut that process because I knew that that would instigate a resistance, denial, like, you know, when we criticize someone, we, we come at them, or even when we give feedback to someone, we're eliciting their shame. We're telling them there's something you're doing that I'm pointing out that's bad. And people will do almost anything to avoid shame. So what do we do?

• 9:59Speaker 01

  We go into either denial or defensiveness because those are the easiest ways to avoid, which is to say, I'm not doing it, or I don't even know what you're talking about. Um, and, and then that's a non-starter conversation because now we're in a conflict. I don't want to be in a conflict. I'm her ally, right? And so what I said instead, I followed the, the first step in the four step process is to shift from critic to ally. And we have a formula for doing that, which is three steps, which is empathize. Which is express confidence and ask permission because it always has to be up to them. So I said, hey, I totally get you eating a plate full of cookies at four AM when you're exhausted. And especially your cookies are awesome.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Like, there's no way I wouldn't have eaten a bun. I would have just joined you. I'm glad I wasn't up at four o'clock in the morning. So I totally get it. And I also can see the guilt in your face and how frustrating that must feel. I also know that you can make different decisions and do it differently if you want. Because I've seen you do that in the past also. And do you want to think about this together? Do you want to think this through together? And so it's express empathy, express confidence, and then ask permission to engage in the conversation. That's the first step.

• 11:13Mike Carruthers?

  And so it would seem that if the answer is no, if permission is not granted, that's pretty much the end of that.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  And in the case of my daughter, which is why I brought this particular example up. In the case of my daughter, she said, no, I don't want to talk about it. And this is what's really important. That's her call. So I said, okay, no problem. And then I said, if you ever want to talk about it, I'm happy to talk about it with you. But I gave her the power. Later that afternoon, she came back to me and she, you know, with, with the confidence that it was up to her to say, hey, and, and a little distance from the situation and from her own shame around it. And said, hey, do you, will you, can we talk about it? I kind of do want to talk about it with you, but I want to stop whenever I want to stop. You know, you have to stop. And I said, that's fine. Like, you're totally in control of this. This is for you.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  The second step is to identify an energizing outcome. So when there's a problem, when we're giving someone feedback, when we're telling them we want them to change, it's often de-energizing. We're basically telling them this thing they're doing is bad. People don't like to sink into problems. People get very narrow minded around problems. They get, their energy gets sucked out. So the first thing you do is you say, what is the outcome you want that would actually be exciting to you? So that's step two. And the, the negation of the problem, meaning if the outcome were just, I don't want this problem. It's, I don't want to eat so much sugar. Right? That's not very inspiring. So my next question is, for the sake of what? Like, what do you hope not eating sugar will give you?

• 12:52Speaker 01

  The answer became, I'm an athlete and I want to think and act like an athlete. I'm a skier, I'm an ice skater, I want to do a double axel. Like, I need the right strength to weight ratio to do that. So think about like, how much more inspiring it is to have an outcome that says, I want to act and, and be an athlete. As opposed to, I want to stop eating sugar. One is just depressing and the other is sort of exciting. So, okay, so now that's step two. So we've got this energizing outcome. So step three is, what is the opportunity that's hidden in the problem? Because we still have a problem. It's great that you want to be an athlete, but you still have this problem of eating too much sugar.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  So, so then the question is, you know, what's the, what's the opportunity there? And after asking certain questions, right? We get to the point that actually the reason I'm eating that sugar is because I'm exhausted. And it's, you know, in this particular case, it was four in the morning and I was exhausted. But in general, I work myself too hard, I push myself so hard and sugar gives me this burst of energy. Well, all right, that's interesting. So the opportunity that you find hidden in the problem of eating too much sugar is rest. It's like, I need to rest. And by the way, an athlete, like probably the most important thing that you can do for yourself as an athlete is to rest.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  So now we've got this outcome of an athlete and we've got the opportunity, which is, I, I need to find more rest. When I am yearning for sugar, that is a sign that I'm overtired and that I need to rest. And I need to build rest into my life and I need to build rest into my schedule. And then that, once we figure that out, now we're up to the fourth step, which is to plan, specifically, what am I going to do, by when, how am I going to do it? And that plan is an experiment. So it doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to be right. We don't necessarily need to know that you will solve this 100% this week. But we want to know that you can choose some action that you can do that will reflect

• 15:01Speaker 01

  movement towards the solution, towards the outcome that you want to achieve.

• 15:05Mike Carruthers?

  So clearly, in a situation like that, the person you're trying to change has to value what you have to say. In this, in this case, your daughter, obviously, is going to value what her father has to say, but that isn't always the case. People, you know, have varying feelings about the people in their life who are trying to change them and may not respect what they, what they have to say or advice they have to offer.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  So here's the thing, there is no point in this process where I am telling her what to do or giving her advice. I'm engaging with her in thinking about it and asking certain questions that always keep her in control. It's her change, it's her choice.

• 15:48Mike Carruthers?

  What about the momentum of this? It seems like you could have this conversation with your daughter, but a week later, you know, there might be another plate of cookies again.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  Exactly. So it's a great point, Michael. And, and that's why, you know, step four is the plan that says, you know, I'm, I'm confident that I'm going to follow through on this, but it's not necessarily going to solve the whole thing. It's an experiment. I don't know if it's going to work or not. I just care that you're going to follow through on something that looks a little different. Let's get together again in a week and see how it's going. And no shame with failure, like, that's just part of the process. We're scientists here. We're experimenting. We don't know what the solution is about how to get better as opposed to just, you know, where we started, which was me criticizing you.

• 16:36Mike Carruthers?

  What about though, when you're in a situation with someone, and let's just change the nature of the conversation, you walk in, your daughter's eating the last cookie of this plate of cookies that she's been up till, till four in the morning, and she doesn't see a problem with it? Why don't you just get off her back?

• 16:56Speaker 01

  So I think that that is absolutely her choice, in a sense. This will not work with everybody in every situation because in order for people to change, they need four things. They need ownership. They need independent capability. They need emotional courage. And they need resilience, future-proofing when it gets hard. Right? They need those four things. Emotional courage is the willingness to feel hard things. We could build all of those things. But if ultimately, she says, I don't care. I'm happy with eating those cookies. I don't really care what my weight is. I'm not so interested in being an athlete. I don't really care. I'm good. So you have to realize that when you want other people to change and you want to help them change,

• 17:42Speaker 01

  you show up as an ally to support them, but it's not going to be a... And you could predispose them to it. You can open to them, them to the possibility of making the change. You could support them in making the change. You could give them ideas and ways of approaching it. But ultimately, it's going to be their call if they decide they don't want to.

• 18:04Mike Carruthers?

  I'm speaking with Peter Bregman, and we're talking about how to change other people. Peter is a well-respected consultant and coach and author. And the name of his book is, You Can Change Other People. This episode is sponsored by Vinted. You know, I remember interviewing an organizing expert who offered this really clever trick for figuring out which clothes you should get rid of. You go to your closet and you look at the clothes hanging there. And chances are, the ones toward the middle are the clothes you wear most often. But the clothes pushed way over to the left or the right, some of those you probably haven't worn in years. And yet there they hang, taking up space. But here's the thing.

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• 21:22Mike Carruthers?

  So Peter, so far we've used this example of you and your daughter, but that kind of relationship is a very close relationship. And as your daughter, she respects you and cares about what you think, I imagine. So what about, though, in a work situation where you've got somebody who needs to change? Maybe they're a member of the team, but they don't see a problem. They're not, they're hard to align with and be an ally for to solve a problem if they don't see the problem.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  So change is one thing. Boundaries and consequences for how you operate as a team is another. So Alan Mulally, who was the CEO of Ford for the turnaround in 2008, and before then he was the CEO of Boeing during September 11th. I mean, he's an unbelievable leader. And he was amazing at this. Whereas what he would do is he would say, these are the standards. And by the way, when he, just to give you an example, when he turned around Ford, Ford was losing billions and he turned it around so they were making billions. And this was during the recession, when everybody else was taking bailouts.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  And he made that turnaround with essentially exactly the same team. There was a turnover of one person. But otherwise, the same 16 people who were driving Ford into the ground rescued Ford. Right? So he changed them. He changed what they were doing. And he had a view of creating a certain set of boundaries. This is how we act on the team. These are my expectations. And if someone wasn't fulfilling their expectations, he would say to them, that's okay, that's really your call. Like it's your choice whether you do this or not. There's nothing wrong with you for deciding to act differently than I'm stating that we're going to act. But you just can't do that here.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  I will help you leave well. It's your call. And the one person who left, he had this conversation with and they left. Another person he had this conversation with and they decided to stay and change. But as, you know, when you're working in a system, when you're working in a team, it is completely valid to set up clear standards of how we operate and hold people to it. And then support them in changing if they want to. And if they don't change, then that's okay too, but there may not be a place for them on the team.

• 23:51Mike Carruthers?

  I wonder what it is that, that if people want to change, why they need somebody else to help them change? Why they need that ally? What, what happens there that people just don't do it on their own?

• 24:06Speaker 01

  I love that you asked this question. The people, the clients that I work with are not remedial. I'm working with the top CEOs in the top companies. They are incredibly successful people. They don't, you know, they're not people with tons of problems. Then the question is, well, why do they need me? And the answer is, you need, when you are stuck in a problem or stuck in a rut, or stuck in a problem, or a habit, or a challenge that you're not getting over, you cannot think your way out of it with your current capability because you're in it. You need, you know, if you're struggling in water, think of if you're like drowning in water and you can't swim, like you still need an arm to reach out and pull you out of the water.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  That arm is really important. So you don't have to be a brilliant person with all of the solutions already to help people. You just have to help them through a process where a different mind is thinking about their problem with them and helps them to see things they can't see otherwise.

• 25:10Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, well, that makes perfect sense that, you know, you're too close to the problem. It's your problem. It's always easier to help other people. It's always easier to solve somebody else's problem than your own.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. And I, that's true for me. Like I've been, you know, I've honed this process over 30 years of doing this. And I still need someone to think through the problems with me. I can't think, even though I know the process better than anybody, I still need someone to help me through it.

• 25:38Mike Carruthers?

  How do you start this process? How do you approach someone who you would like to see change? And get them to buy into this.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  So the most important step, the sort of turning the light on step is that first step of shifting from a critic to an ally. So when you really shift from this sense of I, I care about you and I care about this and I'm not coming at this from anger or frustration, but I'm coming at this as someone who wants to help if it's helpful to you. If it's not helpful to you, it's not a problem either. That, that approach as a, as an ally versus a critic is the thing that switches, you know, kind of switches the light to say, yeah, I would, I, I have the control and I'd be willing to talk about it.

• 26:27Mike Carruthers?

  It certainly puts your defenses down, I guess, because if, if, you know, if somebody comes to you as a critic, you get defensive and that, you know, off we go. But this way, there's nothing to be defensive over.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And if they say no, they don't want to talk about it with you, your acceptance of that no reinforces that they have the control. And what they realize, what they know, and what often happens is they will then come back to you, like I described with my daughter, because you're not threatening to them anymore. Like something has changed and they know, well, you know what? I really do want to get better at this. And actually here's someone who was willing to talk to me about it. They're probably my best bet and I didn't feel judged by them.

• 27:08Mike Carruthers?

  Well, that, yeah, that's a kind of a good way to feather the nest there and, and make it so that that conversation goes so much better. But I, I think you have to be very careful not to slip back into critic once the conversation starts. Seems like that would be very easy to do if you're not careful.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  A hundred percent, a hundred percent. It is very, very tempting. You know, you really have to keep reminding yourself, I'm here in support of them. It's not about me. I'm here in support of them. And, uh, and yeah, that's, that's really critical.

• 27:45Mike Carruthers?

  But it does get back to the idea that you can't change people who don't want to be changed. You can't solve a problem that the person doesn't think exists.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think the real focus then is to sort of say, what is that outcome that we're trying to go to? So when you shift to the outcome and you're no longer talking about the problem, then you're in a more interesting, positive, engaged conversation. It's actually one of the things I always suggest to leaders that I'm coaching, which is if you're disappointed with someone's behavior and they've made a big mistake, if you go back and say, what were you thinking? What were you thinking in this when you decided to do this? That is a setup for a disaster of a conversation. And the reason is because they're going to tell you what they were thinking. It obviously wasn't smart thinking, but they're going to tell you what they were thinking. They're going to answer your question.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  And that's going to sound defensive and you're going to see the holes in it because it obviously didn't work. And then you're going to get mad and then they're going to get defensive and it's just going to go back. And instead, I always suggest you say, instead of saying, what were you thinking? Or what, you say, what would you do differently next time? So now you've gone from a defensive, shameful conversation to one of hope and opportunity and energy.

• 29:06Mike Carruthers?

  When I think about trying to get someone else to change, I've always thought of it more of as a, I'm right, you're wrong, kind of problem, that you need to do this because I, I guess because I said so. And what you're talking about is a very different approach that aligns the parties and probably has a lot better chance of success. Peter Bregman has been my guest. He is a consultant and coach and author. The name of his book is You Can Change Other People. And you can find a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Thank you, Peter. Appreciate the insight.

• 29:43Speaker 01

  Excellent. A lot of fun, Michael. Thanks so much.

• 29:47Mike Carruthers?

  Well, here's something you should know about your bones. We all hear about calcium and vitamin D, and they're important. But there's another ingredient in healthy bones that hardly anybody talks about: collagen. Think of your bones like a building, right? Collagen provides the framework, while minerals like calcium help give it strength. Here's the problem, though: As we get older, our bodies naturally produce less collagen. That's why I was interested in Native Path Bone Health Collagen. It's not just ordinary collagen. It contains a specialized form called Fortabone. And there's some interesting research behind it. In a study of 131 post-menopausal women,

• 30:30Mike Carruthers?

  researchers saw improvements in bone mineral density after 12 months: up to 7.7% in an important part of the hip. Native Path gives you the same 5 grams of Fortabone used in that research in an easy-to-mix daily formula. I just got mine, because bone health is something I'd rather pay attention to now than wish I had later. And here's a great reason to try Native Path Bone Health Collagen right now: You can save up to 48%, get free shipping, and it's backed by a 365-day money-back guarantee. Now, that's a pretty compelling offer if you've been thinking about doing something

• 31:14Mike Carruthers?

  to support your bone health. Go to getbetterbones.com/sysk. That's G-E-T-betterbones.com/sysk. So here's the problem with drinking water. You can't tell if it's clean just by looking at it. A glass of water can look perfectly clear and still contain things you definitely don't want to drink. In fact, 3 out of 4 US homes have toxic chemicals in their tap water. An ordinary refrigerator and pitcher filters...

• 31:50Mike Carruthers?

  They do little to remove many of these contaminants, which is why Aqua True is different. Aqua True is a countertop water purifier with a patented four-stage reverse osmosis system. It's tested and certified to remove 84 contaminants, including chlorine, lead, forever chemicals, and those microplastics. And there's no plumbing, no installation. You just put it on the counter and you get pure, great tasting water. You can actually feel good about drinking. Aqua True was even named best countertop water filter by Good Housekeeping. Look, if you're gonna drink water every single day, and you probably should, well, why guess what's in it?

• 32:33Mike Carruthers?

  Go to aquatrue.com now for 20% off your purifier using promo code SYSK. Aqua True even comes with a 30-day best tasting water guarantee. That's aquatrue.com, A-Q-U-A-T-R-U.com, promo code SYSK. How often have you heard people make a claim about something and say, "But it's scientifically proven. There's real science here." Often, it involves food, nutrition, or some other health claim that must be true because of the science. Well, not so fast.

• 33:18Mike Carruthers?

  Here to give us all a better understanding about what is and isn't science, and how that word "science" gets misused in order to mislead, is Dr. Joe Schwartz. He's director of McGill University's Office for Science and Society. He's the author of several books. He's been a guest here before, and his latest book is called "Superfoods, Silkworms, and Spandex: Science and Pseudoscience in Everyday Life." Hey, Joe, welcome back. Merry Christmas.

• 33:48Speaker 02

  Hi, Michael.

• 33:50Mike Carruthers?

  So, let's start with "superfoods," because I hear that expression a lot, that, you know, blueberries are a superfood, or, you know, pick your food, but that a lot of foods are labeled "superfoods." What is a "superfood"?

• 34:04Speaker 02

  It's an expression that I dislike, even though I used it in the title of the book. And I don't like it because no food really merits being labeled as an angel or a devil, you know, as a superfood, because it suggests that it has some sort of health quality. And usually, there's a lot of hype in there. Now, obviously, food is very, very important in terms of health. There's no question about that. We are constructed of the food that we eat, right? I mean, food is the only raw material that ever goes into our body. So we are indeed made of the food that we eat.

• 34:48Speaker 02

  And Hippocrates supposedly 2,000 years ago said, "Let thy food be thy medicine." Although frankly, I've never found any concrete evidence that he ever said that. But he could have. It's much reported in the literature. So diet is certainly important. And go back to, you know, the Ebers Papyrus that was written 1500 B.C. Suggested already that a half an onion and the froth of beer is a delightful remedy against death. Well, that's an overstatement. But of course, since that time, we've had many, many allegations of, you know, there being foods that were deemed to be especially healthy.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  Sylvester Graham gave us the Graham cracker, you know, high-fiber food. Kellogg regaled us with stories about the health benefits of yogurt. And today, of course, there's a whole collage of foods that are labeled in the popular press as superfoods, ranging from olive oil to blueberries. And what I point out... Is that well, certainly there are diets that are healthy and diets that are unhealthy. It is a mistake to label any single food as that. And that's why, you know, whenever students or members of the public ask me to kind of have a look at their diet and evaluate it.

• 36:17Speaker 02

  I say the only way we can do that is if they keep a diary in which they write down everything that they eat, including amounts that they eat for several weeks. Then we can have a look. Because, you know, it's possible to eat blueberries every day, which actually I do try to do. It's possible to do that and still have a terrible diet. And it's possible to never eat blueberries and still have a good diet. So it's the overall components of the diet that will determine whether it is healthy or less than healthy. And that's why I don't like the idea of superfoods. So I use it in the title, so you know, I can discuss all of these nuances.

• 37:01Mike Carruthers?

  So talk about this term biobase. We hear this a lot about fuels like, oh, we need more bio-based fuels because that's better for the environment and we're going to run out of fossil fuels. What about that?

• 37:13Speaker 02

  Right, well, we will run out of fossil fuels. That's a given because the earth is of a finite size. And, you know, we only have so much in terms of raw materials. I don't think we have to worry about running out of fossil fuels within our lifetime. But eventually it is going to happen, so there is a search for alternatives. Bio, of course, comes from the Greek word meaning life. So we're looking for substances that are replaceable, usually because they are isolated from crops that can be grown.

• 37:51Speaker 02

  We cannot manufacture any petroleum, right? I mean, that's a given amount that we have in the earth, which is really the end result of the degradation of vegetable matter and animal matter over millennia. So we're not going to replenish petroleum, but we can grow crops from which we can isolate useful components. So we can grow corn, we can grow canola, from where we can extract oils, and those oils can be used as fuel. And those would then be termed as bio-based. And that is certainly a legitimate endeavor. For example, we are already doing that to some extent.

• 38:36Speaker 02

  As you may know, gasoline can have up to 10% ethanol content. And that ethanol can come from corn, because the glucose in corn can be fermented to produce alcohol. So that would be biofuel. And then, of course, we also talk about biodegradable substances. And that is also a very important concept in terms of environmentalism, because we don't want substances building up in the environment that will stay there forever. We would like them to decompose into innocuous substances. So there's a lot of work on that as well, especially when it comes to plastics.

• 39:21Speaker 02

  Plastics have been demonized recently. And, you know, there's, of course, some legitimacy to that. We don't like to see plastic bags fluttering in the breeze or, you know, hanging in trees. We don't want to hear about this giant plastic garbage patch in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. We don't want to hear about nanoplastics, which are the end product of the badgering by sunlight and waves of plastics that get into the ocean and which eventually end up in our body, right? We don't want macro, micro, nanoplastics ending up in our body.

• 40:06Speaker 02

  So the question is to produce substances that are biodegradable, meaning that they will break down. And we can do that with certain plastics. Polylactic acid, for example, is made from corn and it is biodegradable. However, there's a but. There always is a but in science. You know, we tend to give with one arm and take away with the other. So it would be great to have the one-armed scientist, you know, only gives us good things. The fact is that these biodegradable plastics are biodegradable under ideal conditions, which usually means some sort of, you know, industrial, commercial composting facility.

• 40:52Speaker 02

  And I can tell you that I've done an experiment where I have one of these plastic cups, the polylactic acid cups that are biodegradable. And I've left it out in my backyard and now for two years. And I can tell you that it has not degraded at all. It looks the same as it looked then. But if it were present in a compost pile that is, you know, constantly being turned all the time and where the microbes are monitored or where the temperature is monitored, then it would degrade.

• 41:24Mike Carruthers?

  Talk about the science of old book smell. Anybody who has opened an old book, maybe in a library or something where that hasn't been opened in a long time. There's a very distinctive old book smell. And you talk about that. What is that smell?

• 41:41Speaker 02

  If you've ever opened an old book, I mean, we're talking, you know, at least decades old, probably a book that has not been stored very well, that has been, you know, exposed to mold or fungi, mostly humidity. You can develop a variety of smells. And that originate from the breakdown of the cellulose, which of course is the fundamental building block of paper. And also from the infusion of fungi. Fungi are everywhere. They're present in the air. They're microscopic, so you don't see them. But when they get into a book and especially aided and embedded by moisture, they will start to use the cellophane or the cellulose

• 42:26Speaker 02

  that is the essential part of paper as food.

• 42:31Speaker 02

  And when they digest that, they crank out some pretty smelly compounds.

• 42:36Mike Carruthers?

  What's the science behind duct tape or the science about duct tape?

• 42:41Speaker 02

  Duct tape is fascinating, of course, in many ways. First of all, the name, it actually comes from a Dutch word and it has nothing to do with ducks. It has nothing to do with D U C C K. And it turns out that during the Second World War, ammunition boxes were sealed with a type of paper tape. But that paper tape would tear very easily. So when soldiers in the heat of the battle had to open these ammunition boxes, the tape would tear and they wouldn't be able to open the box. And that precipitated a search to find a tape that would be hardy,

• 43:24Speaker 02

  but that would easily be removed without tearing. And that's what gave birth to what we now call the duct tape. Now, one interesting connection there is that that tape originally was made with a backing of a rubber adhesive and some polyethylene that made it waterproof. And in between those was a sandwich, the type of fabric that was referred to as cotton duck. That was the name of a type of fabric. So that also is one of the reasons that that people have used the word duck tape, D U C C K. And there are all kinds of uses, you know, as you can imagine for duct tape.

• 44:10Speaker 02

  It saved the lives of the Apollo 13 astronauts where a catastrophe was averted because the astronauts were able to rig up a contraption to remove carbon dioxide from the air that they exhale. And they used duct tape in order to to do that. You know, it's been said that WD-40 is what you need to make things go and duct tape is what you need to make things stop.

• 44:40Mike Carruthers?

  We hear a lot today about PFOS that, I mean, I get press releases all the time about, you know, this is the end of the world kind of thing. And I think people don't really know much about it or really know how big a concern it is. So clear that up.

• 44:57Speaker 02

  PFAS stands for perfluoroalkyl substances, which are really a family of compounds that have some very interesting properties that are commercially useful. Because they make substances water resistant and oil resistant. So PFAS would be used, for example, in the making of rain gear. It is used in firefighting foams because it can very effectively blanket a fire and seal out oxygen. It is used in the manufacture of Teflon. It has a myriad of uses.

• 45:41Speaker 02

  Your pizza box in which your pizza is delivered, you don't want that box to be greasy or wet. So it is treated with these chemicals. Now, the problem is that whatever makes these so useful also creates a problem. The carbon fluorine bond is a very, very strong bond. And it is responsible for all the beneficial properties of these compounds. But it also means that they are very difficult to break down. So these are not biodegradable. These substances build up in the environment. Now, of course, then the question comes up, so what?

• 46:25Speaker 02

  Well, once we find that they build up in the environment, we start looking for them everywhere, including in our urine and including in our blood. And it turns out that they are there. It is, however, always important to point out that the presence of a chemical cannot be equated to the presence of risk. That's a different question. So just because they're present in our urine and our blood doesn't mean that they're creating some sort of havoc in our body. But it does mean that it requires further exploration. And that further exploration has been done. And it turns out that there are links to...

• 47:05Speaker 02

  Elevated blood pressure to greater risk of kidney disease, to greater risk of diabetes, when there is an excessive amount of these chemicals in the bloodstream, which unfortunately can happen because they are so widely used in so many commercial items. However, the real problem is that they get into the environment, not from the products that we tend to use on a daily basis, but from their manufacture. So it's not the pizza box, you know, from which we eat the pizza, that has transferred some, you know, trace amount of PFAS into the pizza that gets into our body.

• 47:50Speaker 02

  That's not the major problem. The major problem that these chemicals are manufactured on a gigantic scale around the globe, because there are so much in demand. And when you're manufacturing things on such a large scale, it's impossible to prevent their entry into the environment. So they get into the water, they get into the air, they get into the soil, and from there, they get into our body. Because we drink water, we eat food, we breathe air. So really, the only way to try to battle this problem is to cut down on the overall production of these substances. But that means that you've got to find replacements.

• 48:35Speaker 02

  And right now, there are no substances that can do the job as well as these PFAS. However, I think in this context, it also needs to be mentioned that we are exposed to literally millions of compounds on a daily basis. Chemical Abstracts, which is a service that basically lists all known chemicals.

• 49:02Speaker 02

  There are over a hundred and sixty million chemicals that are now listed. Now, of course, we're not, we're not going to encounter all of those regularly. But we certainly encounter thousands of chemicals on a daily basis. Just to give you an example, when you drink a cup of coffee, you're consuming over a thousand compounds, over a thousand compounds, including some like cafeic acid or furfural, which are known carcinogens. Now, if we label something as a carcinogen, it means that we know that at some dose, in some animal or in some laboratory trial, it causes cancer.

• 49:45Speaker 02

  It does not mean that it does so in humans. That's a common misconception that people make. They think that if something is labeled as a carcinogen, it means that it causes cancer in humans. No, it just means that it has the potential to cause cancer. Now, we know that coffee does not cause cancer. We know this. If coffee did cause cancer, we would know because there's enough coffee consumed by enough people around the world that this would reveal itself epidemiologically. So here we have a situation where we have known carcinogens present in the coffee. But of course, the whole coffee as an entity doesn't cause cancer. Why?

• 50:25Speaker 02

  Because the amounts of the carcinogens in there are in very, very small doses. And coffee also contains some compounds like antioxidants, which can mitigate cancer.

• 50:36Mike Carruthers?

  Well, great, Joe. It's always a pleasure to have you on. I enjoy listening to your scientific explanations because they're unique and then they make you think. I've been speaking with Dr. Joe Schwartz. He is director of McGill University's Office for Science and Society. He's the author of several books. His latest is called "Superfood, Silkworms, and Spandex: Science and Pseudoscience in Everyday Life." And there's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes if you would like to buy it. Thank you for coming on again, Joe. Always a pleasure.

• 51:09Speaker 02

  I appreciate that very much. Thank you.

• 51:14Mike Carruthers?

  You've probably heard the theory that having a pet dog is somehow good for your health. And you may have wondered, well, how? Like, how does that work? Well, here's one way it works. Scientists took a look at 421 heart attack victims, some dog owners, some not dog owners. They found the dog owners were far more likely to survive the heart attack than the non-dog owners. Dog owners are less obese and more active physically and socially. Another study found that pet owners have to go to the doctor less often than people with no pet. The study looked at kids, too, and those kids with pets had stronger comforting and

• 51:58Mike Carruthers?

  empathy skills and a better sense of overall well-being. So those are just some examples of how having a pet dog is good for your health. And that is something you should know. I assume you've enjoyed this podcast since you made it all the way to the end of the episode. And so, since you did enjoy it, perhaps you could tell someone you know and ask them to give a listen and help us grow our audience. I'm Micah Brothers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

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