Why Siblings Turn Out So Different & Why Talking to Strangers Helps

You can spend $5 on a bottle of wine—or $5,000. But is one really that much better than the other? Or could something else be shaping what you taste in that glass? Researchers have taken a closer look—and what they found is surprising. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.0706929105 Sibling relationships are some of the longest and most influential connections we have—yet they can be loving, distant, competitive, or even nonexistent. Why do siblings raised in the same home often grow up to be so different? Does birth order really shape personality? And what causes some siblings to drift apart over time while others stay close? Catherine Carr, author of Who’s the Favorite?: The Loving, Messy Realities of Sibling Relationships (https://amzn.to/4bPIKr3), explores the complexities of sibling dynamics and what these relationships reveal about identity, family roles, and how we change over time. Think about how many brief interactions you have with strangers each day—a quick exchange at a coffee shop, a passing comment, a small moment of connection. These encounters may seem trivial, but research suggests they can have a meaningful impact on your mood, your sense of belonging, and even your overall well-being. Gillian Sandstrom, professor in the Psychology of Kindness at the University of Sussex and author of Once Upon a Stranger: The Science of How “Small” Talk Can Add Up to a Big Life (https://amzn.to/4sLvmfa), explains why these small interactions matter far more than we tend to realize—and how a simple conversation can make your day better. We’ve all heard that stress can take a toll on your health—but it may be doing something even more fundamental, quietly affecting your body at the cellular level. Deep inside your DNA are tiny structures that play a key role in how your cells age, and stress appears to influence how they change over time. https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2004/11/97660/ucsf-led-study-suggests-link-between-psychological-stress-and-cell-aging PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS DUTCH: If your pet is still scratching and you’ve tried everything at the pet store –it’s time to stop guessing and go prescription. Support us and use code SYSK for $40 off your membership at ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Dutch.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ RULA: Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high-quality therapy that’s actually covered by insurance. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Rula.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠ to get started. QUINCE: Refresh your wardrobe with Quince! Go to ⁠https://Quince.com/sysk⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too! SHOPIFY: See less carts go abandoned with Shopify and their Shop Pay button! Sign up for your $1 per month trail and start selling today at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Shopify.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ PLANET VISIONARIES : We love the Planet Visionaries podcast! In partnership with The Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative. Listen or watch on Apple, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you are listening to this podcast. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hey Spotify listeners! When you travel with American Airlines, you'll enjoy comfort and convenience at every altitude. Before takeoff, unwind in the Admirals Club Lounge with curated self-serve offerings of hearty bites and refreshments. In-flight, stay connected with high-speed Wi-Fi, sponsored by AT&T. Your journey is designed to feel easy from the moment you check in to the moment you arrive. No matter where you're going, American gets you there. Book now at aa.com.

• 0:28Mike Carruthers?

  Today on Something You Should Know, what's the difference between a $5 bottle of wine and a $5,000 bottle? Not as much as you think. Then, navigating the complex world of sibling relationships.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  Getting to know your siblings as adults, not just the roles and labels they had as kids, might stand you in good stead because the research shows if you get close and then stay closer into older age, it has a really great benefit for your well-being and happiness. So that seems like a good thing to aim for.

• 0:59Mike Carruthers?

  Then, what stress does to your body and how you can fight it. And your interactions with strangers. They may seem insignificant.

• 1:08Speaker 03

  But there are so many times when I've had a laugh or I've learned something, or just seen a new perspective or a new way of living, and a few times, it's changed my career path more than once.

• 1:22Mike Carruthers?

  All this today on Something You Should Know. Now here's something that might be worth a minute of your time. How would you like $1,000 to spend on shopping? Especially with the holidays coming. Well, the people behind Shopify have a shopping site called shop.com. And to celebrate the new shop.com, they're giving away $1 million in Shop Cash. But not to one person. 1,000 people will each win $1,000 in Shop Cash. And shop.com is actually a really clever idea. It brings lots of different stores together in one place.

• 2:05Mike Carruthers?

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• 2:27Mike Carruthers?

  I'd certainly take a look. Enter to win the $1 million Shop Cash giveaway from now until November 1st. Just go to shop.com. There are so many ways to win. That's shop.com. Shopping designed around you. No purchase necessary. Restrictions apply. Official rules available at shop.com.

• 2:52Speaker 04

  Something You Should Know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life today. Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers.

• 3:05Mike Carruthers?

  When you look at wine, you can buy a bottle of wine for $5 or $500. So what's the difference? Well, not much. And that's what we're going to start with today. Hi, I'm Mike Carruthers and this is Something You Should Know. In blind taste tests, average wine drinkers often cannot tell the difference between a very expensive wine and a very inexpensive wine. And sometimes they even prefer the cheaper wine. But here's where it gets really interesting. In one study, researchers scanned people's brains while they drank the wine. And when participants were told that a wine was expensive, the pleasure centers in their

• 3:48Mike Carruthers?

  brain actually lit up more, even when it was the exact same wine as the cheaper wine. In other words, the price didn't just change what they thought, it changed what they experienced. It doesn't mean expensive wine is a scam. High prices can reflect things like rarity, aging, and craftsmanship. But for most of us, a big part of what makes wine taste better is what we believe about it. And that is something you should know.

• 4:21Mike Carruthers?

  Your sibling relationships are often the longest relationships you'll ever have. They can last a lifetime, and yet they can be complicated. Sometimes close, sometimes distant, and sometimes completely silent. So how do those relationships shape who you become? Why do siblings raised in the same home often turn out so different? And is there something about having siblings that only children miss out on? My guest has spent a lot of time exploring these questions. Catherine Carr is the middle of three sisters. She's host of a podcast called Relatively, which dives into sibling relationships.

• 5:04Mike Carruthers?

  And she's author of a book called Who's the Favorite? The Loving Messy Realities of Sibling Relationships. Hey Catherine, welcome to Something You Should Know.

• 5:14Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 5:16Mike Carruthers?

  So where do we start to unpack this topic? Because some people have great sibling relationships. Some people have not so great sibling relationships. Some people have no siblings. So where's a good starting point to start this discussion?

• 5:33Speaker 02

  Well, I suppose 80% of us do have a sibling. And the other 20% are looking on a bit mystified about why their friends talk about their siblings in the way they do, or their partners, or their colleagues at work. So I think whether you have them or you don't, 100% of us are sort of affected by them. And if I could tell you a story to start, it was during the pandemic that an ex-colleague was on the phone with me. I was talking about my two sisters, and I'm the middle of three girls. And I was saying, you know, I should just make a podcast about them. They, their lives are so full of drama. And she said, I wouldn't do that. It would be a bit strange. But you should make a podcast about siblings because, did you know that it's potentially the longest relationship of your life?

• 6:16Speaker 02

  And this is how I frame the whole way that I think about brothers and sisters. This idea that you can know someone for 80, 90, maybe 100 years, before anyone else and maybe after anyone else. That changed the way I see the whole world, frankly.

• 6:34Mike Carruthers?

  Well, it is interesting that you do have that relationship for longer than any other. But so many, I mean, I would put myself in this category. We kind of went our separate ways. Not that we don't talk to each other and see each other occasionally, but we're not close like I suspect maybe you and your sisters are. You know, our family, we just, we're all in different parts of the country. We talk on the phone, but you know, there's not a lot of influence there or doesn't seem to be.

• 7:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, and I think it's interesting when you're adults, usually early adults is a leaner time for sibling relationships, I've learned. You usually grow up with your siblings, although I didn't grow up with all of mine. And often in midlife, people are pulled back together for one big reason. And that's to look after their parents as they get older or to consider how to provide care for their parents as they get older. And then to maybe grieve for them when they die. And a large part of the research that I've read seems to suggest that if you haven't progressed as adults beyond the ways that you interacted as children, where you can be quite stuck in your roles.

• 7:51Speaker 02

  You might have labels about which one in the family you are, the funny one or the clever one. And it can be quite two dimensional. When you are pulled back together in midlife to deal with big and difficult things, that's when real arguments can happen and estrangement is a great risk. So it seems to me that maybe getting to know your siblings as adults, full, they're full characters, if you like, not just the roles and labels they have had as kids. Before you get to that point, might stand you in good stead because the research shows. If you get close and manage that chapter and then stay closer into older age, it has a really great benefit for your wellbeing and happiness. So that seems like a good thing to aim for.

• 8:35Mike Carruthers?

  You know, that's really something I'd never really considered, but we do kind of pigeonhole our siblings. Like, as you said, you know, he was the funny one and he was the... And we never let go of that, that we, we kind of still, we still carry those labels, even though they probably don't necessarily apply so much later in life.

• 8:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's funny, isn't it? Because you're carrying a label around as somebody who's being compared to two or three or four other individuals in this great big world. And your identity as relative to those other people, your siblings, somehow feels very deep and sometimes quite sharp. And yet, let's say, if you're at work and somebody said, you know, Mike, I'd really love you to present the company accounts this year. And you thought to yourself, I'm not very good at maths. I'm not as good at maths as I, as my brother is. That comparison's sort of meaningless in the world because your boss at work has asked you to do this job.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  He thinks you're good enough. But I think we still do carry this strange relative comparative thing with our siblings that's quite hard to shake. And I also think it's quite interesting that often we don't exhibit the behaviours which show those labels until we're back together. So even if we might have these ideas secretly about ourselves and about our siblings and how we are compared to them out in the big wide world, let's say, usually it's not evident until or unless we go home for Christmas or Thanksgiving or Easter. And whoa, you can really see it then. People slot back in like into their parts.

• 10:20Mike Carruthers?

  I think one of the big questions that people have about siblings is why children can grow up together in the same house with the same parents and turn out so differently.

• 10:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? When you have your own children, you're so surprised by that, even though it's true of all children everywhere, they're all different to each other. I suppose there's lots of different reasons. One is the way that DNA is shared, and I'm not a biologist, but I know that the amount of DNA you can share with a full sibling can vary. You can share as much DNA with a full sister as you do with a first cousin, and maybe less with another one of your sisters. That's just the way it works. And so sometimes I think if you don't gel or click with one of your siblings, maybe there's a really simple biological reason for that. That's number one.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  But then number two, there's a kind of shared, what's called shared environment theory. And I like to think of it like a river. I like these pictures, which is as if each child is born, they're sort of plopped into the river and they float along. And the next child is born and they are plopped into the river, but it's a different body of water. It's a different day, the weather is different. And if you think about it in terms of the family, what that looks like is your parents might be older or tired. You might have moved house, lost a family pet. The family may be richer or poorer. Someone may be sick. There's so many different things that can change the environment in which that child arrives and then grows up.

• 12:01Speaker 02

  Not to mention the fact that they may have no children above them. They may be in an adult environment when they're born, put in the river. Or there may be four other kids who welcome them when they come home from hospital. So really, it's impossible for us as siblings, even though we share a lot. And the paradox is there's no one else that can really go back there with you, other than your siblings. Even when they do. They're not really going back to your childhood. We have such main character energy. We're all going back to our own individual childhoods.

• 12:36Mike Carruthers?

  I know there's been a lot written and talked about regarding birth order. And I also know a lot of it has been debunked that that just because you're the oldest doesn't necessarily mean this and just because you're the youngest doesn't necessarily mean that. But what about birth order? What do we know is true?

• 12:55Speaker 02

  You're, I mean, you're totally right. There's nothing deterministic about it. So if you are the first born, it doesn't sort of mean therefore these things will happen in your life or you'll be this kind of person. That said, I mean, there are some studies that show that firstborns, and this is Western centric again, tend to score slightly higher in IQ tests. And the reasons for that, because I've described all of those other environmental things, might simply be more resources, more time, money and attention given to the firstborn, or a greater expectation that that child, as their first, might sort of embody the family narrative or carry a flag for the family and achieve on behalf of the family, if you

• 13:39Speaker 02

  see what I mean, kind of represent them in the world. And what's really interesting in studies where they look across lots of families, so not just within one hierarchical family, is that if sadly the oldest child dies, often the next child who sort of becomes, although they might not describe themselves like that, the de facto only child, then goes on to score similarly in IQ tests and achieve similarly in their careers if you're taking certain markers as indicators of success, go into good jobs and earn good money. So there does seem to be something about being the firstborn, for example. I will say in other cultures, of course, if you're the firstborn boy in some parts

• 14:24Speaker 02

  of the world, you might not score highly on those IQ tests because you might be taken out of education early to go and work to contribute to the family. So it really is culturally dependent as well.

• 14:37Mike Carruthers?

  I'm curious how gender, the gender of siblings, plays a role in how their relationship goes in just a moment.

• 14:47Speaker 00

  Hey Spotify listeners. When you travel with American Airlines, you'll enjoy comfort and convenience at every altitude. Before takeoff, unwind in the Admirals Club Lounge with curated self-serve offerings of hearty bites and refreshments. In flight, stay connected with high-speed Wi-Fi. Sponsored by AT&T. Your journey is designed to feel easy from the moment you check in to the moment you arrive. No matter where you're going, American gets you there. Book now at aa.com.

• 15:14Speaker 05

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 15:40Mike Carruthers?

  I'm speaking with Katherine Carr. She's author of the book, Who's the Favorite? The Loving Messy Realities of Sibling Relationships. So Katherine, what about the mix of boys and girls, sisters and brothers? Does it matter? Or are siblings siblings and they just do what they do?

• 16:01Speaker 02

  They just do what they do. There's a study out at the University of Utah that looks at rebellious teenage behavior. And Dr. Sean Whiteman, who's the guy who did that, he concluded that gender really does matter for a number of reasons. His overarching conclusion is that sister-sister relationships tend to be closer generally and over time. And certainly, as I was saying at the beginning, like in old age, let's imagine we end up in a care home together with our siblings. Sisters there tend to be closer, followed by sister-brother relationships, and then brother-brother relationships tend to be, he finds, more conflictual and less close. The really interesting thing about his study,

• 16:44Speaker 02

  which, as I said, looks at rebellious behavior, is that more than gender or age gap or anything like that, it's when kids hit puberty that matters. So... He found that brother, sister, siblings could be very close if the brother is two years older and hits puberty at exactly the same time as the girl does, because that's what tends to happen with boys and girls. So it's something about being at the same developmental stage which helps with closeness, which might explain why so many twins, I mean, there's lots of other reasons, but feel particularly close. And it might also explain why in early adulthood, as I said, when we're going out into the world

• 17:26Speaker 02

  and trying to shed our childhood identities, we often go into different life stages, get married, or get a job, or buy a dog, or find a partner. And you can sort of leave each other behind at that stage in your twenties, you know, you can feel like you're catching up or dragging. And siblings often then feel very distant, maybe for the same reason. So that research really fascinates me. But I will say one thing, that I think sister, sisters being close over time, my theory is that that is partly to do with care, because all the studies show that care for elderly parents is still really gendered, and that women do the lion's share of it, daughters, sisters.

• 18:07Speaker 02

  So maybe there's something about the girls in a family and the emotional labour they end up doing, or the physical caring they end up doing, bringing them into intimacy, if you see what I mean.

• 18:17Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, yeah, well, that happened in my family. My sis, there are four boys and a girl, and when my mother got very sick, it's not even like we talked about it much, my sister just kind of assumed the role of caregiver. She just assumed it. And, and there's also that issue that, that we had in our family too, where my older brother and I were a year apart, and then there was a five-year gap, and my parents had three more kids. And so we were never really that close with the younger three, because five years growing up is a big difference.

• 18:53Speaker 02

  It's a really big difference, even outside of sibling groups, people still say, nonsensically sometimes, until they're really quite old, about people they were at school with, oh, they were in the grade below or the year below. Like, that matters when you're 28, people still say it. But you're right, I mean, the age gap thing is so interesting. A lot of the studies about it.

• 19:18Speaker 02

  Cheeringly, as a woman who's had babies, um do tend to focus on recovery and a good age gap for a woman to kind of get over one pregnancy before embarking on another. But if you're looking at the ways that siblings influence each other, you talked about that right at the beginning, and sibling relationships have been described to me as the missing part of psychoanalysis. If you're looking at influence, then anything more than four years starts to be really tricky to sort of track influence, according to research. The two and three year, quote unquote, typical age gap, you can really see the modeling and the imitating that goes on between the littler and the bigger. So it makes sense to me that you felt,

• 20:00Speaker 02

  I don't know if you did, but it sounds like you might have felt like two, two groups.

• 20:05Mike Carruthers?

  I have always remembered, I don't know where it comes from, but that somehow that there's a stigma about only children, that, you know, you really should have more than one because then they learn social skills, or, I mean, I don't know what the arguments are, but what does the science say about families where there are siblings and versus families where there are only children?

• 20:32Speaker 02

  I knew all the stereotypes, I mean, I know all the stereotypes about only children, and they're, they're largely negative, right? And then when I looked into it and where those stereotypes came from, it's almost like a joke. I couldn't believe it. It's this researcher in inverted commas, and then he was a contemporary of Freud in the 19th century, late Victorian era. And he was in the States, and he had a very free ranging childhood, growing up with cousins and siblings and animals. And he concluded that was good, that's the way kids should grow up. And then when he got a bit older, he did a piece of investigating into it. He asked various schools around the States to send cases of peculiar and

• 21:16Speaker 02

  exceptional children. And these could be children with a whole load of different things going on, and they sound very Victorian and old fashioned to us now, like cleft palate maybe, or gluttony, or nervousness, or...

• 21:30Speaker 02

  I mean, really a funny list of things. And when these bits of evidence, again in inverted commas, came back, this guy Granville Hall was his name. He concluded that a greater number than average of these peculiar or exceptional children were only children. And so he concluded, if you were an only child, you were more likely to be peculiar or exceptional. It it's so far away from scientific research, you can't even imagine, but it sort of stuck. This idea that only children were lonely and maladjusted, I think, was his conclusion, stuck. And then because the Great Depression followed quite swiftly after he'd published his research and having an only child was

• 22:13Speaker 02

  could be a symbol of not having enough money to have any more children. So there was another stigma to add on to his silly research. These stereotypes are so deeply embedded, even though research after research after research paper has proven almost the opposite, that only children, while they might struggle a little bit socially to begin with, because they've not been in an environment all the time with other children, like siblings might be, by the age of twelve, it's all evened out and the scores are pretty much equal and more than that. Whereas siblings can take each other for granted that they're always going to be there and they can be, you know, play a bit fast and loose with each other's feelings and

• 22:58Speaker 02

  be a bit unkind and just think, well, they're blood, they're they're not going anywhere. Only children don't take relationships with friends that they make for company for granted at all. So they can actually be better at nurturing and keeping and respecting friendships than kids with siblings. It's so interesting that it's almost the reverse of what you might assume.

• 23:22Mike Carruthers?

  What about sibling relationships that we haven't talked about yet do you think is important? Because it's a subject we don't talk about a lot in general and I'm sure I've missed something. So what have I missed?

• 23:35Speaker 02

  I don't want to be bleak at the end, but I would like to talk about bereavement as the real big one. Because if eighty percent of us have a sibling, then you can do the maths on how many of us will lose a sibling. They call those people who've lost a brother or a sister the forgotten mourners. And my looking into that took me to the poetry of Wordsworth and to all other sorts of places. And it made me really, really think because, and here's the takeaway that I'd love people to think about. These relationships are so unusual, they're unique. No other relationship in our life really goes from vertical to horizontal, from hierarchical to peer.

• 24:19Speaker 02

  We don't generally sort of do that in life. They evolve so much. And if we lose our sibling as adults, let's say, when we've become equal, and yet we have this hinterland, this kind of huge, shared, complicated past, you might lose a big chunk of your history or a big bucket of your memories. And this horizontal grief, people just don't allow for it. They ask the sibling to take care of the parent who's lost the child or the child who's lost the parent. And they don't look left and right at this person. And it's described in one of the books I read as if Africa's vanished off the map overnight.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Your whole landscape completely changes and it's seismic. And I don't think we think about it enough. And it is a bit downbeat, so I don't want to make people feel depressed with that. But I think it's important as well.

• 25:14Mike Carruthers?

  Well, this whole topic of sibling dynamics and relationships over time, it affects so many of us, yet we don't talk about it much. So I appreciate you sharing all you know about it. Catherine Carr has been my guest. She is, Catherine Carr has been my guest and she's author of the book, Who's the Favorite: The Loving Messy Realities of Sibling Relationships? And there is a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. Catherine, this was really interesting. Thank you for sharing it.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  Thank you so much, Mike. I really enjoyed talking about that and I thought your questions were spot on.

• 25:49Speaker 00

  Hey Spotify listeners! When you travel with American Airlines, you'll enjoy comfort and convenience at every altitude. Before takeoff, unwind in the Admirals Club Lounge with curated self-serve offerings of hearty bites and refreshments. In flight, stay connected with high-speed Wi-Fi. Sponsored by AT&T. Your journey is designed to feel easy from the moment you check in to the moment you arrive. No matter where you're going, American gets you there. Book now at aa.com.

• 26:16Speaker 05

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 26:46Mike Carruthers?

  Growing up, you were probably told, "Don't talk to strangers." And that idea tends to stick. Even as adults, when we interact with strangers, we often treat those conversations as trivial, just small talk that doesn't really matter. But what if that assumption is wrong? There's growing research showing that even brief interactions with strangers can have measurable effects: boosting your mood, reducing feelings of loneliness, and even improving your overall sense of well-being. In other words, those quick, casual exchanges may be doing far more than you realize. My guest has spent years studying this.

• 27:28Mike Carruthers?

  Gillian Sandstrom is a professor in the psychology of kindness at the University of Sussex. Her research has been featured in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and The Washington Post. And she is author of a book called "Once Upon a Stranger: The Science of How Small Talk Can Add Up to a Big Life." Hi Jillian, welcome to Something You Should Know.

• 27:52Speaker 03

  Hi, thanks so much for having me.

• 27:53Mike Carruthers?

  Sure. So my sense about interacting with strangers is those interactions are necessary. You have to get through the day and part of that is to interact with strangers. But, and sometimes they're fun, but oftentimes they're very simple and they're very quick and they're over with and you don't think about them again. And, and that's kind of how I think about it is that I don't think a lot about them, but you clearly do, so explain that.

• 28:22Speaker 03

  Yes, I do. Gosh, there's so many places to start in answering that question. I guess one place to start is to say, I think you're right that most conversations with strangers are nothing special, maybe just sort of average, but there are so many times when I've had a laugh or I've learned something, someone has recommended something, I've found out about new opportunities, I've just seen a new perspective or a new way of living. And yeah, every once in a while, a few times, it's changed the course of my life. It's changed my career path more than once. So I think there's a whole range of things and, you know, there doesn't always have to be

• 29:05Speaker 03

  something that comes from it. I think it's a shared moment of humanity regardless of what any, whatever else happens and that in itself is meaningful.

• 29:14Mike Carruthers?

  Okay, well, that's a good answer.

• 29:18Mike Carruthers?

  But when you say it's valuable and meaningful, you mean sometimes it's valuable and meaningful? Because sometimes it seems pretty valueless and meaningless.

• 29:28Speaker 03

  Well, I guess, fair enough, you know, like, like I said, not, you know, most, probably the average conversation is average, right?

• 29:37Mike Carruthers?

  Right.

• 29:38Speaker 03

  But I actually think it still matters because I think the cumulative effect of it.

• 29:45Speaker 03

  Speaking from my personal experience now, having talked to hundreds and hundreds of strangers now, I feel like the cumulative value, just knowing that I could talk to pretty much anyone and have a decent conversation, that adds up to me walking around the world differently, feeling a little safer and more trusting and more positive about humanity. So even though most of what's contributing to that is just sort of average conversations, that cumulative effect requires all those average conversations.

• 30:15Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah. Well, I've always thought of it more this way, that, you know, in order to make a friend, you have to walk the path, which starts with that kind of stranger interaction thing. Nobody can be a friend until you talk to them first as a stranger. So you kind of have to go through that, but that that in itself is not all that meaningful. It's just, it's a chapter in the book that you have to get through.

• 30:41Speaker 03

  That's kind of a cynical way to think of it. I mean, that's definitely true because, you know, pretty everyone that you know, unless you're related to them, they started off as a stranger. So you're right that any friend that we have started as a stranger. But I, I don't think we have to think about it in that kind of instrumental way. Like, I think most strangers are not going to turn into friends and that's okay, but just having these small human moments of connection is valuable. They don't have to turn into anything else.

• 31:09Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah. Well, I didn't mean to be cynical because I share your view. I just, but I think that that's how a lot of people look at it. It's a, it's a kind of a transactional thing that you kind of have to do. And I was thinking about this because I knew we were going to talk, because I, this weekend was in a situation where I went to a funeral and then the party after the funeral for someone I've never met, didn't know. My wife, my wife knew the, knew the daughter of this woman, but not really well. We kind of went in place of someone else who couldn't go. They were out of town. So we said, well, we'll kind of go in your, on your behalf.

• 31:49Speaker 03

  Hmm. That's kind.

• 31:52Mike Carruthers?

  Literally did not know a single person at this, at this party after the funeral. And everyone's talking about Peggy. Oh my gosh, Peggy was so great. And I wouldn't know Peggy if I tripped over her. And so I had nothing to contribute to the conversation. I still got along fine and talked to some people, but it was, it was, it was a weird situation because I had nothing in common. And, and as we were talking before we started, you know, I can talk to anybody for 20 minutes. That's what I do for a living and, and I'm very comfortable doing it. But it, it sometimes feels a little weird. And I think everybody has those weird stranger interactions where like you're just not in sync.

• 32:34Mike Carruthers?

  You're not like, it doesn't work and you said, get me out of here. So.

• 32:39Speaker 03

  Absolutely. And what you're describing sounds like probably the hardest, like that, that, that sounds like in a particularly difficult situation because you can't, you don't want to change the topic, right? Everyone's there to talk about Peggy. So you can't be like, so what do you do for fun? You know, like it's, it's just, it's a really hard thing and you don't have, you know, everybody else there has that thing in common, even if they've never met. So they probably were able to connect much more easily. But yeah, I mean, I've had situations like that. I, you know, I've talked to so many strangers now. I'm like, I can, I, I've got this. And I went to a, a party for, you know, someone that I didn't know that well. I didn't know anybody else who was there. And I was put at a table with some people and I thought, no problem. But I could not, could not figure out how to connect with them.

• 33:24Speaker 03

  And I thought, you know, I've, I've lost, I've lost it. Like what's going on here? And then the person who'd invited me to the party introduced me to someone at another table and we instantly connected and hit it off. And I was like, okay, sometimes, you know, it's two people, right? So it's, I think that's why it's tricky, right? You know, it, it, both people have to be willing to put in the effort and, and, you know, and, and they usually are because no one wants an awkward conversation, right? So both people are trying, but sometimes it just doesn't work. That's okay.

• 33:55Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah. Sometimes it just doesn't work. But why do you suppose it is? Cause I think this is true, that people, like you know how you go to a party where you, like you did, you don't really know anybody. A lot of us feel like nobody really wants to talk to me or like I have nothing to contribute. And yet people wouldn't be there unless they were willing to talk. I mean, why, why would you go to a party and sit in the corner by yourself and not want to talk to anybody? But there is this reluctance to strike up a conversation and I wonder why.

• 34:29Speaker 03

  Psychologists have done a lot of research that seems to suggest that humans just have this fundamental need to belong, right? Like, it's really, really important to us that we feel valued and seen and accepted and all that kind of stuff. So it feels really high stakes, any kind of social thing. And research suggests, like, we actually, most of us, think that we're worse than average when it comes to chatting with people. So I think there's a lot of fear involved, right? We fear that we don't know how to do this, and that that matters because belonging matters so much. But the good news is that we do worry way too much. And so there's more and more research.

• 35:11Speaker 03

  My colleagues and I have done some research on something called the liking gap. And what we found is we asked people to talk to people that they'd never met before. And afterwards, they thought, they liked their conversation partner more than they thought their conversation partner liked them. So basically, what we found is people like you more than you think.

• 35:32Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, that's nice to know. That's nice to know.

• 35:35Speaker 03

  And there's lots of, lots of similar research showing, you know, we worry more about giving someone a compliment, or doing something kind for someone, or offering advice. So most of the time, these kind of things are more appreciated and less awkward than we think they're gonna be. So it feels like we have this sort of general, sort of distrust of our own competence when it comes to these kind of social things.

• 36:01Mike Carruthers?

  I think one of the things people struggle with is that first, "Hi, I'm Bob. How are you?" That, like, breaking the ice, I guess, is the hardest part. Because you, once you're in a conversation, you're in a conversation, and theoretically, you could maneuver in that. But it's starting it off that seems to be a problem. Do you have some suggestions or advice on how to do that better?

• 36:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I think you're, I think you're right. And I think it's just not the norm, at least not in many places, to talk to people that you don't know. And so when we do it, I think there's that moment at the beginning where people are a bit confused and maybe even concerned, right? They're like, who are you? Do I know you? What do you want? What is happening right now? And so there's that moment of just the other person trying to figure out what's going on. And I think to some extent, if you sort of accept that that's going to happen and just keep going a little bit, usually you end up getting to a point where people realize you're just being friendly and then everything's okay. But I think there are some shortcuts that

• 37:11Speaker 03

  get you past that. So, and I think, you know, there's, if you provide people, if your conversation starter provides people with a reason why you're talking to them, then you get to skip that awkwardness. So I talk in my book about three different ways that I've, I've reflected on how I tend to start conversations. And there's three different kind of main strategies. So they spell the word quick. So the Q U is for question, the I C is for in common, and the K is for kindness. So asking someone a question about, you know, their tattoo, or their airplane earrings, or, you know, the T-shirt for the race that they've just

• 37:52Speaker 03

  run in, or that kind of thing, people are generally happy to tell you about themselves. And that can sort of skip the awkwardness a little bit. Or commenting on something that you see around you, which I think is why people talk about the weather. But, you know, or commenting on, you know, their T-shirt, which is, you know, for a band that you are a fan of, or, you know, making a comment on what they're reading, those kinds of things, you know, people understand why you've reached out, or giving someone a compliment, offering them some help or directions. All those kinds of things might help you get past that little awkward moment that often starts the conversation.

• 38:32Mike Carruthers?

  And sometimes, I mean, it just seems that People don't want to put in the effort. I mean, not in a selfish way. It's just like, it's just, you're not in the mood. You don't, maybe you're tired. You just don't want to put in the effort to have a conversation. You'd just rather stay by yourself.

• 38:50Speaker 03

  You know, I get that reluctance to not want to reach out, but sometimes it helps pass the time, you know? Like, if you're standing in a line somewhere and it's really boring and you're getting frustrated, if you just turn and talk to the person standing next to you, it helps pass the time. It helps you not get so frustrated, right? Or if you're in a waiting room at the doctor's office and you're feeling a bit anxious because you're getting a test results or something, you chat with someone else in the room, past the time flies and you don't think so much about your anxiety. So I think it helps get you out of your own head.

• 39:22Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, well, that brings up an interesting point because that makes a lot of sense. But what a lot of people do now is whip out their phone and don't look at anybody or talk to anybody and in their own, in their own little bubble.

• 39:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I, and I mean, obviously that makes sense because their phone is full of entertainment, right? I had someone ask me that once. They said, why would I talk, why would my daughter talk to a stranger when she can pull out her phone and watch the most interesting people on the world, in the world on TikTok? And that's a hard thing to, to counteract. But the thing that I think about is, there's more than one thing. Because I've come to enjoy it so much that it's just fun for me. Like, I know if I push past the little bit of, you know, reluctance that's still there or, you know, muster a little bit of energy, that I'm likely to enjoy it. But also, I feel like it's doing something, it's putting something positive into the world because we have fewer touchpoints.

• 40:20Speaker 03

  We have fewer opportunities to engage in these kind of interactions because we're doing more things online. We're working from home. You know, we can go to the self-checkout at the grocery store. So we don't have as many human touchpoints. And I think that that, like, if you multiply that and you think of what that means long term, I don't like where that's heading, you know? I don't know how we work together to solve. The world's problems if we're too scared to talk to our colleague because we've never had practice talking to a stranger, we've never had practice, you know, finding our way into conversation. So I feel like having these kind of conversations is really important to sort of build our social skills so that we can use them in other places where they're

• 41:05Speaker 03

  really important. Like, you wanna find, you know, thinking of young people who wanna date or, you know, find a romantic partner, get married someday. How are you gonna go on a date if you can't talk to someone? You know, like, so you need to have ways to practice those skills so that when you're in the kind of situation that really matters, that you don't feel so uncomfortable.

• 41:25Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah.

• 41:26Speaker 03

  And I just think it's a really human, meaningful thing to do for our world. You know, I think it, it, it makes people feel more trusting of each other. And that, that feels really, really important right now.

• 41:39Mike Carruthers?

  I think there just is this default thing. In fact, I just, I think it was in an interview not long ago, someone was talking about some research where people who were on a commuter train, who never looked or talked at each other, were asked to do that. And pretty much everybody came away thinking, this was great. And, and, but yet, nobody ever thought to do that. They thought, I'm just gonna bury my head in my newspaper, or my telephone, or whatever. But when they were actually in conversations with people that they've seen every day, they actually liked it.

• 42:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's work by Nick Epley and Juliana Schroeder. And I did a similar study at, at Starbucks, where I had people go into the coffee shop and, and either I instructed them to act really efficiently, to have their money ready, and avoid talking as much as they could. You have to talk a little bit to place your order. Or I asked them to go in and turn that interaction that could have just been a, you know, I give you money, you give me coffee, but to turn it into something more social. And when people came out with their coffee, I got them to fill out some questions. And, you know, people who'd had, who'd taken advantage of that moment and turned it into something a bit more social, were just in a better mood and felt more connected to other people, and were more satisfied with their experience.

• 43:01Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, well, and it makes sense when you say it, and I would think most people would agree. Yeah, I've had those experiences where I enjoyed that, it was fun. You know, it wasn't necessarily life-changing, but it was, it would put a little spark in the day. And yet, there's this reluctance to do it, this feeling like, oh, this is just not worth it.

• 43:24Speaker 03

  You know, since I've started talking about this research, doing this research and talking about it, I really have the strong feeling that so many people want to do this, but feel like they're not allowed, or feel like they don't have the skills to do it. So it seems to me that when I say this, people are like, oh, I want to do that. I'm going to give that a try. I don't feel like it's the same as, you know, trying to encourage people to go to the gym and get some more exercise, something that we know is good for us. But we, a lot of us are like, we really don't want to do that. I don't feel like talking to strangers is the same. I feel like a lot of people can, can sort of sense that there might be something worthwhile here and just need a bit of a nudge.

• 44:05Mike Carruthers?

  Well, sometimes those stranger interactions can be fun and there's something to them. But sometimes there's not. So you just have to, I guess, decide whether it's worth the effort.

• 44:17Speaker 03

  Gosh, well, I've heard so many fun stories, so I've had a lot of laughs, which to me is a lot more fun than, you know, sitting on the bus or sitting on the train in silence. I've had recommendations for restaurants and walking trails and theater and, you know, places I should visit. I've had people give me free vegetables when I talk to them outside the community garden. I've had, I've had a lift from people. I've gone over to someone's house because they invited me over to have a drink. So like, I feel, I feel like there, you know, there are some tangible things, but also... I like the idea of doing it just for the humanity of it and not because there might be instrumental benefits.

• 45:01Mike Carruthers?

  But what's interesting is I bet everybody could say that, that everybody who thinks back to their interactions with strangers have gotten those benefits. In retrospect, you see what they were, but going into it, you think, yeah, there's nothing gonna happen here, so why bother? I think it's, but I think you're right. I mean, everybody's had those benefits. Think about your own life. I mean, some of the biggest changes in your life, good and bad, but were because you ran into somebody, or you met somebody on a plane, or you, you know, and somebody introduced you to them, and that person gave you a job. I mean, that's how, that's how everything starts.

• 45:42Speaker 03

  I think life is unpredictable, right? I think a lot of things, you know, you just, one moment that you never expected leads to something else, which leads to something else. Like, we can't predict what's gonna happen. And so these little moments are the big moments sometimes.

• 45:57Mike Carruthers?

  Well, I think all of us can search our memories and find a time when one of those stranger interactions has been something special, something delightful, something wonderful.

• 46:10Speaker 03

  And I think it's just such a source of novelty, right? And I think that's what makes it scary, is that it feels like every single interaction, you don't know what's gonna happen. You don't know this person, you know, you, there's, it's not possible to be able to predict what's gonna happen. But that's also the joy of it, you know, that these magical moments can happen, where, you know, someone connects with you over something, or, you know, I've, I've met so many interesting people, you know, I met a sperm bank manager, I met someone who does bat, bat first aid, I've met something called a looker, which seems like a very English thing. It's a volunteer who, who takes, keeps an eye on cows, and she, she knew exactly which cows like to have their heads scratched.

• 46:54Speaker 03

  I've met a children's book author, you know, it's just, it's just a way that opens up your world and makes your life a little bit richer.

• 47:01Mike Carruthers?

  Did you say you met someone who does bat first aid?

• 47:04Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 47:07Speaker 03

  I met that person at a cathedral, Durham Cathedral in England. And there's bats that live at the cathedral and they get dehydrated and they actually fall and land on the ground. So in the morning, the volunteers come in and they scoop up all the bats that have fallen down and they take them home and administer first aid.

• 47:26Speaker 03

  The bats are okay.

• 47:30Speaker 03

  Right? Like, you didn't need to know that, but that's like, I had no idea that that was a thing. And I learned that just because I asked someone, "What are you doing?"

• 47:41Mike Carruthers?

  Well, it's so much fun to talk about because we've all had these stranger interactions. We can all relate to this and the good ones, the bad ones, and the ones that were surprising. And I like to hear about your research. It's great. Gillian Sandstrom's been my guest. She is a professor at the University of Sussex in the UK, and she's author of the book, "Once Upon a Stranger: The Science of How Small Talk Can Add Up to a Big Life." And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Gillian.

• 48:09Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 48:13Mike Carruthers?

  Have you heard of telomeres? They're these protective little caps on your DNA, kind of like the plastic tips on a shoelace. Every time your cells divide, those caps get a little shorter. And when they get too short, cells stop functioning properly. Here's where it gets interesting. Research has found that chronic stress is linked to faster telomere shortening, meaning the wear and tear of stress may actually show up at the cellular level. Some studies have found a link between personality traits like impatience and shorter telomeres. But scientists aren't sure what is the cause and what is the effect?

• 48:56Mike Carruthers?

  Does having shorter telomeres make you impatient? Or does impatience shorten your telomeres? What they do know is this: Lifestyle factors like stress, sleep, exercise, and diet, all appear to influence how quickly your telomeres shorten.

• 49:14Mike Carruthers?

  So aging isn't just about time, it may also be about how you live that time. And that is something you should know. And if this episode made you think or smile, or you learned something new, I hope you'll share it with someone you know. Just hit the share button and help us spread the word. I'm Micah Rutherford. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

• 49:39Speaker 05

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• 50:07Speaker 06

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