Why You Click With Some People & How to Pursue Anything with Excellence

If you want a conversation to feel more engaging and connected, there’s a small, often overlooked detail that can quietly shape how the other person experiences you before either of you even says a word. And it all has to do with your phone. This episode begins with research revealing what that detail is and why it matters more than most people realize. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12110250/ You’ve likely experienced that rare moment when you just click with someone. Conversation flows. It seems effortless – it’s feels magical. But what’s actually happening in those moments — and why doesn’t it happen with everyone? Journalist Kate Murphy joins me to explain the science behind interpersonal synchrony, the conditions that make clicking more likely, and why these moments feel so meaningful. Kate has written for The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal and is author of Why We Click: The Emerging Science of Interpersonal Synchrony. https://amzn.to/4sM4a04 We hear the word excellence everywhere — but what does it really mean to pursue it? Do we need to strive for excellence in everything we do? Is it okay to be average at some things? And how do you avoid chasing what looks like excellence but actually leads to burnout or dissatisfaction? Brad Stulberg explains the difference between true excellence and what he calls “pseudo-excellence,” and how to pursue mastery in a way that leads to both high performance and deep satisfaction. Brad is a writer, researcher, performance coach, and author of The Way of Excellence: A Guide to True Greatness and Deep Satisfaction in a Chaotic World. https://amzn.to/4qY237s When you spend discretionary money, you probably think you know what you’re buying. But there’s another way to think about those purchases — one that research suggests can have a big impact on how satisfied and balanced you feel about spending that money. We wrap up with a shift in perspective that may change how you decide what’s worth spending money on. https://www.nbcboston.com/news/national-international/outsourcing-household-chores-happier-relationship/3871202/ PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS SHOPIFY: In 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify! Sign up for your $1 per month trail and start selling today at ⁠https://Shopify.com/sysk⁠ PLANET VISIONARIES: We love the Planet Visionaries podcast, so listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you're listening to this podcast! In partnership with The Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 0:30Mike Carruthers?

  Today on Something You Should Know, how your cellphone can cause a big problem just by sitting there. Then, the science behind why you just click with some people but not others.

• 0:42Speaker 02

  There are things that can make you less likely to click. You cannot experience synchrony virtually. If you're not in another person's physical presence, you really can't experience synchrony to its fullest and richest extent.

• 1:00Mike Carruthers?

  Also, when you have extra money, what do you tend to spend it on? And what it means to pursue something with true excellence?

• 1:09Speaker 03

  It means a couple of things, Mike. The first thing that it means is that you have to be okay with making yourself vulnerable and risking failure. So it's one thing to say you're gonna give something your all, it's another thing to actually put yourself in the arena and make yourself vulnerable and risk failure.

• 1:24Mike Carruthers?

  All this today on Something You Should Know.

• 1:29Mike Carruthers?

  Now here's something that might be worth a minute of your time. How would you like $1,000 to spend on shopping? Especially with the holidays coming. Well, the people behind Shopify have a shopping site called shop.com. And to celebrate the new shop.com, they're giving away $1 million in shop cash. But not to one person. A thousand people will each win $1,000 in shop cash. And shop.com is actually a really clever idea. It brings lots of different stores together in one place. So instead of bouncing around from website to website, you can search across stores, find what you're looking for,

• 2:14Mike Carruthers?

  and track your orders all in one place. Clothes, electronics, gifts, things for the house, all kinds of stuff. And whether you win or not, it's worth knowing. But with 1,000 chances to win $1,000...

• 2:29Mike Carruthers?

  I'd certainly take a look. Enter to win the $1 million Shop Cash giveaway from now until November 1st. Just go to shop.com. There are so many ways to win. That's shop.com. Shopping designed around you. No purchase necessary. Restrictions apply. Official rules available at shop.com.

• 2:54Speaker 04

  Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life today. Something you should know with Mike Carruthers.

• 3:07Mike Carruthers?

  You know what I've started doing? I've started hiding my phone. And I'll tell you why. Hi, I'm Mike Carruthers. Welcome to Something You Should Know. So when I have an important conversation, like dinner out or a meeting with someone, I hide my phone, like fully gone, not face down on the table, not silenced, but gone in my pocket. Here's why. Even if you never touch your phone, just having it on the table changes how people see you. Research shows that people come across as less sincere, less engaged, and less trustworthy when a phone is visible.

• 3:50Mike Carruthers?

  And the weird part is, nobody can really explain why. They just feel it. Psychologists say it's because a phone on the table sends a quiet signal that this conversation could be interrupted at any moment. And once that idea is in the room, the connection never quite gets off the ground. So if you want someone to feel like they have your full attention, whether you're trying to build trust, make a good impression, or just have a better conversation, don't just silence your phone, remove it from sight. It's a small move, but it instantly makes you seem more present, more likeable, and more dialed in, which in a world where everybody is half-distracted all the time, is a huge

• 4:34Mike Carruthers?

  advantage to you. And that is something you should know.

• 4:42Mike Carruthers?

  There is this magical moment, and I know you've experienced this, probably several times, and that experience is this: you meet someone, you talk to them for a little while, and somehow you just click. Instant chemistry, like you were meant to be. Not just in romantic relationships, but in friendships, or as work colleagues, too. There's just something about when the two of you are together, you're in sync. And it can all be summed up with the phrase, "We just clicked." But what does it mean to click? Why do we click with some people and not others? Is it just chance that two people click, or can you make it happen? And what if you feel like you click with someone, but they don't feel

• 5:27Mike Carruthers?

  the same? All of this and more is about to be discussed with my guest, Kate Murphy. She's a journalist who has written for The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and other publications. And she's author of a book called Why We Click: The Emerging Science of Interpersonal Synchrony. Hey Kate, welcome to Something You Should Know.

• 5:48Speaker 02

  Well, thank you so much. Happy to be here.

• 5:51Mike Carruthers?

  So from your point of view, as somebody who has studied this, what does it mean to click? What is going on?

• 5:58Speaker 02

  Well, it's that feeling of resonance. And it can be romantic, it can be platonic, but it's when you meet someone, and it's that instant feeling of ease and attraction, and the conversation is effortless, and you just feel connected.

• 6:16Mike Carruthers?

  But is it just a magical moment, and that's the end of it? Or is there some science here that can explain why you click with this person, but maybe not that person?

• 6:28Speaker 02

  Well, this is something that writers, poets, philosophers have been trying to wrap their heads around for centuries. But it's only recently that scientists have started to wonder what causes that feeling. What is it? Is it pure magic and mystery? But is there something that's identifiable as to what's happening within us when we feel that? Because it is almost physical. When you have that connection, that click, it's almost a whole-body experience. And because of advances in technology, they have come to realize that not only do, when we have these moments of feeling like we're clicking with someone,

• 7:14Speaker 02

  not only do we start to mirror one another's facial expressions, postures, and gestures, it's also uncannily, we start to sync up our respiration, our heart rate, our pupil dilation, and our hormonal activity. So there's a lot, it's actually measurable. You can see that moment. And when we have these meaningful conversations and have shared experiences, there's also a related and associated syncing of neural patterns and brainwaves. So you can actually see, now we can actually see that it's a whole neurophysiological phenomenon

• 7:58Speaker 02

  beyond just the emotional feelings that we have.

• 8:02Mike Carruthers?

  Is part of the definition of clicking that it be instant? You know, like, click? Because I've had people in my life that I feel like I click with, but it wasn't instantaneous. It took a little time to develop. Not a long time necessarily, but it wasn't instant.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  Well, that's the thing about clicking. And what they call it, what scientists call it is interpersonal synchrony. So just to throw that term out there. And generally, we get a read on people within 30 seconds, less than 30 seconds. But we also move into and out of synchrony with people all the time. And so things can change within us, within the other person, the context, just the dynamics, what happened to you right before that instance, that can make us do later click, come to lock into one another. And a lot of it can have to do

• 9:05Speaker 02

  with just where we are physiologically, but it also can have to do with the context. And shared experiences. We all know about, well, maybe we don't all know, but a lot of us have felt the sensation when you do synchronized activities with other people, like maybe singing at church or playing a game with people, walking with one another. That's another thing that scientists have found, that not only do we sync internally, also when we externally sync with other people, like when we're dancing, marching, even finger tapping at the same time. They've shown in experiences makes people feel

• 9:50Speaker 02

  a sense of affinity, rapport. They share more personal information and they're more likely to be kind and helpful. Even babies strapped into face-forward carriers and bounced in sync with an experimenter, they're much more likely to prefer that experimenter versus an experimenter who is not bouncing in sync with them or who's not bouncing at all. So there are all these factors that can come into whether or not you sync with someone. So like you say, maybe later, when you say maybe they grew on you, maybe you all fell into synchrony later because of your association, because of those conversations that you had that helped you have that neural alignment.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  But a lot of times, you know, just in the moment, it happens very quickly when you get a read of someone. And it can also go the other way, where you have that immediate experience of like, ugh. You know, you just, the person is off-putting for whatever reason. It's just they're not a good fit. And again, at that moment, at that moment, could change later.

• 10:59Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, but it seems like you could have the same experiences with one person and the same as you do with another person and click with one and not click with another. And as you say, there could be a lot of reasons for that. But when you take away those things, like you're playing a game together or you're doing activities together, there still has to be something about that person.

• 11:26Mike Carruthers?

  That seems really hard to put your finger on that is causing you to click with that one and not that one.

• 11:33Speaker 02

  Absolutely. No, that's absolutely true. And it's really, it's sort of multimodal syncing is. Because I've already talked about, it's not only these physical things that we do together, it's also all these under the hood things that are happening. The respiration, the heart rate, and a lot of things they can't even measure yet. But we have this instinct to sync with another person. We like to connect. That's what feels good. But there is a special alchemy. When you think about all the unlikely friendships and romantic pairings where you think, oh, I never would have put those two together. Well, they likely wouldn't have either.

• 12:16Speaker 02

  There is a special alchemy between two people, between their bodily oscillations. I mean, we're made up of trillions of cells. The way I like to think about it is that we're all kind of like these walking symphony orchestras. And we have all of these instruments playing at different frequencies and different amplitudes. And when we meet another person, they have their whole orchestra playing as well. And the other people may recognize or appreciate the tune you're playing, or just a certain couple of few instruments in your orchestra. And you can sync on certain levels, but not in others.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  And there's some where you can just join in in harmony altogether. So it really, it just depends on where you are in your life, as well as those underlying ineffable factors that causes you to be in tune, to click, to be in harmony. I love all these turns of phrase that people have been saying, you know, since well before anybody thought to measure why it was true, but things like in step, in tune, in harmony, on the same wavelength, clicking. It's all actually true on all these subconscious and autonomic levels.

• 13:35Mike Carruthers?

  But clicking is a two-way street, right? You could be very attracted to someone who has no use for you. I mean, it's just, it's a one-way click.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  I don't think there's such a thing as a one-way click. And in fact, there really isn't. You can yearn to and want to and hope for, but you haven't clicked with that person. It has to be mutual. Because that's the feeling that is really so rewarding and uplifting and really makes you feel that sense of connection.

• 14:15Mike Carruthers?

  Haven't you ever been in a relationship with someone or in a meeting with someone who you thought, "Wow, this person's really great", but it turned out not to be reciprocal, that they didn't feel the same thing you did, and so therefore, nothing goes anywhere?

• 14:35Speaker 02

  Exactly. You just didn't click.

• 14:38Mike Carruthers?

  Oh, right. So I'm in the pre-click stage when I'm doing that?

• 14:42Speaker 02

  You're yearning for it. And I mean, we all want that. We all want to be liked and we want that sense of connection. But you know, try as you might, you can't make yourself love someone. And also, by the same virtue, you can't make yourself not love someone.

• 15:00Speaker 02

  So you know, once you've reached that moment of when you have clicked with someone, you can't really undo it. And by the same token of the things that you're talking about, where you want to, you wish you would, but sometimes you're just not a good fit, and that's okay.

• 15:19Mike Carruthers?

  We're talking about those special times, those special people in life where you just click. And my guest is Kate Murphy, author of the book, Why We Click.

• 15:59Speaker 05

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you, so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 16:27Mike Carruthers?

  So Kate, knowing what you know, and now that science is looking into why people click and how they click, are there things you can do to nudge it along, or it either happens or it doesn't?

• 16:41Speaker 02

  I think a lot of it, it either happens or it doesn't happen. It's that peculiar alchemy. But I will say that you can make yourself more receptive to it and make yourself more available to it happening. And like I mentioned, doing these synchronized activities, I mean, when you think back to Aristotle and the parapetetics, I mean, there was a reason why he lectured these students while walking around the grounds, or why Steve Jobs always invited people he wanted to influence to walk around with him. So there is something about synchronized activities, line dancing, singing, where people

• 17:22Speaker 02

  just naturally, it makes them more available and makes people more likely to develop affinities for one another. It's the thought that because you are sinking on certain levels, it makes you more likely to sink on those deeper levels. So there's that. There's also being really engaged with other people, being really curious and being open and allowing it to happen, to give yourself over to the various...

• 17:57Speaker 02

  Signals that we can measure and also can't measure that may be coming from the other person. So it's really making yourself, actually just be a good listener, asking questions and really allowing yourself to get on the other person's wavelength. So, you know, though at the end of the day, it's really that peculiar alchemy between you and another person, you can make yourself, you know, almost like put up your antenna, make sure that you're available and that you really are paying attention to the other person and allowing them in.

• 18:35Mike Carruthers?

  Are there people, I'm really curious about this, are there people who tend to sync up, who tend to click with a lot of other people or find themselves in positions where lots of people yearn to click with them? There's something about their charisma or their charm that makes them more clickable than others?

• 19:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, charisma's the right word. And, um, and yes, there are people that just, they tend to have this magnetism and they tend to actually be able to get people to sync to them, to get on their wavelength. They're not necessarily trying, it's not sort of a mutuality, it's more people are joining their wavelength and clicking with them. They're able to draw people in. And, um, and there are people like that, that, you know, may become politicians, they may become preachers, where they have this ability to really inspire and bring people

• 19:46Speaker 02

  along with the things that they're thinking. And they may be better at syncing, because I talk about that, because there's a difference between syncing with a crowd versus syncing with an individual, reading a room versus reading another person. And so that there are different abilities in that sense of being able to, because there, as we, I mean, I think most people have been walked into maybe a party or a performance where you can totally read the crowd. It's not like you're reading each individual, but you're, you're reading the room, the energy in the room.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  And so some people who have that kind of charisma are mostly better able to deal with large crowds or to do like quick sample syncs with other people, but perhaps aren't able to have sustained synchronies with individuals.

• 20:45Mike Carruthers?

  You know, as we're talking, it occurred to me, as interesting as this is, on some level, I kind of don't want to hear this. I mean, I don't want to know. I don't want to look too closely because there does seem to be some magic to clicking. And sometimes you don't want to know, you know, how the magic trick is performed. I just like the magic to be the magic.

• 21:10Speaker 02

  That's one thing I love about this is that it is so peculiar to the two individuals and what they bring, whether it's their history. Because if you think about it, our whole, we embody everything that's happened to us, you know, without us knowing it. It's in every twitch and neural oscillation within us encompasses who we are. And other people somehow, some way pick up on that and sync with us or not. And so there is really some

• 21:50Speaker 02

  magic to it. Commonalities can help, but not necessarily. There's still that mystery and magic to it. The thing I love about this is that you can actually see it happening and realizing how much we are almost like tuning forks roaming the planet, looking for resonance and finding it or not with other people and moving into it and out of it with other people. And that's what essentially makes up our social lives.

• 22:23Mike Carruthers?

  Is there any, has there ever been a survey done or has everybody clicked with somebody sometime, more or less? I mean, not everybody, but is it a fairly common experience or is it a fairly uncommon experience?

• 22:41Speaker 02

  It's a fairly common experience for most people, but there are things that can make you less likely to click. The research clearly shows that people who have autism or ADHD, that can interfere with synchrony. It's not that you can't click with people, but it makes it a lot harder. Also, some psychological disorders like depression and anxiety and narcissism can make it more difficult to click with people. So I won't say that I would hope most people do, are experienced clicking. And when you aren't clicking with people,

• 23:26Speaker 02

  that's when you have things like loneliness and what we call this loneliness epidemic. And a lot of that also has to do with because you cannot experience synchrony virtually. Because as we've discussed, it is a multimodal phenomenon. It encompasses more senses than the five we take for granted. And so if you're not in another person's physical presence, you really can't experience synchrony to its fullest and richest extent. And by the way, eye contact is really very important. And the research also shows

• 24:11Speaker 02

  that when people aren't looking at each other, whether their backs are turned to each other or they're looking at a phone, they're much less likely, and also it's pretty hard, to develop any type of synchrony. So I think people are really, who are just relying on virtual relationships, you can to some degree feel like you've experienced some degree of synchrony, but then often, as often happens in online dating, when people meet face to face, they're sorely disappointed because they're just not feeling it. It's just the click does not happen.

• 24:55Mike Carruthers?

  Well, I mean, that seems to explain so much right there, that you just can't, you can't click with somebody if you're not... Physically in the same room with them. I mean, it doesn't seem like it would even be possible. And yet, people seem to be more distant from others because of phones and things that we don't connect with people. And, you know, if you don't connect, you can't sync. You can't click. And, boy, that explains.

• 25:25Speaker 02

  And even when you're in the same room, to really be present and notice that, because you have to be aware of notice to be able to have that moment of connection, of clicking with another person. And you bring up another point, that when we were talking about those commonalities of experience, we have so few of those now, if you think about it. We're not going to the same movies in a movie theater anymore. We're not getting our news from the same sources. We're kind of in our own little curated bubbles of what we're paying attention to.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  And so, when we do come together, there are fewer commonalities, fewer starting points, fewer common neural patterns that we can sync up to and latch on to. And it's not to say we can't eventually, but that clicking, it takes more work to get a read on the other person and to try and understand where they're coming from.

• 26:34Mike Carruthers?

  Well, as we've been talking, I've been reminiscing as well about the people and the times that I've clicked with someone. And I guess partly it's because it is rare. It doesn't happen a lot, but it happens often enough that you remember how magical it is. And I really enjoy hearing you explain the science behind how it happens and why it happens. I've been talking with Kate Murphy. She's a journalist and author of the book, Why We Click: The Emerging Science of Interpersonal Synchrony. There's a link to her book in the show notes. And Kate, great, thanks. Thanks for coming on. Have a great day.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  Thank you, Mike. Same to you.

• 27:15Speaker 00

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 27:42Speaker 05

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 28:14Mike Carruthers?

  There's a word that comes up a lot when people talk about their careers and their goals and their lives, and the word is excellence. And on the surface, well, it sounds really good. Who's against excellence? But I've started wondering if we're actually confusing ourselves with that idea. Do you really need to be excellent at everything you do? And what does excellence even mean anymore? Because these days, it feels like we're all expected to crush it at work, optimize our health, be amazing partners, great parents, perfectly balanced humans, all at the same time. If that's excellence, that's exhausting. According to my guest,

• 28:57Mike Carruthers?

  a lot of what we chase in the name of excellence isn't excellence at all. It's what he calls pseudo-excellence. It looks impressive from the outside, but it doesn't actually lead to satisfaction, meaning, or sustained success.

• 29:12Mike Carruthers?

  Brad Stulberg studies this for a living. He coaches people on performance, well-being, and what he calls "sustainable excellence," the kind that actually holds up over time instead of burning you out. He's also the author of the book, "The Way of Excellence: A Guide to True Greatness and Deep Satisfaction in a Chaotic World." Hi Brad, welcome.

• 29:33Speaker 03

  Mike, it's great to be back. Thanks for having me.

• 29:36Mike Carruthers?

  So first, help us understand what excellence is and what excellence isn't.

• 29:42Speaker 03

  I think that there is a lot of confusion between what I call pseudo-excellence and actual excellence. So pseudo-excellence is so much of what you see on social media, where folks think that they need to be perfect at everything, they need to wake up at 4:00 in the morning, they need to have a 37-step routine and a super-restrictive diet, and take a cold plunge four times a day, and on and on and on. And the question there is, what's it all for? What's the 37-step routine serving? What's the cold plunge doing? Are you just doing hard things for the sake of doing hard things? That, to me, is pseudo-excellence.

• 30:23Speaker 03

  I think genuine excellence is, again, when the mountain that you're climbing is one that you chose because it aligns with your values and it's one that you genuinely want to climb. And the reason that I think that, yes, this is for everyone, it's not just for elite athletes or master chefs or Grammy-winning musicians, is because so many people that I spoke with in the reporting process said that they have a sense of longing in their lives and kind of a sense of going through the motions and almost numbness. And when you pursue excellence, when you are serious about an activity, when that activity becomes a craft, one of the greatest rewards that you'll ever get from it, more than any medal or any income or any promotion, is a sense of satisfaction that you've gained skill and you've gained competence.

• 31:08Mike Carruthers?

  A lot of the things, though, that people have to do, and maybe in the big picture they have to, there are things they want to do, but the day-to-day stuff isn't stuff I love to do. I have to pay the bills, I have to... These aren't things that seem to require excellence, or do they?

• 31:29Speaker 03

  I think that the answer here is it depends. Some of us are really fortunate to have a livelihood that very much aligns with our values, where we can pursue excellence and mastery in our work. Some of us don't, and that's totally okay. I think another big misconception is that excellence is just a pursuit that is professional. So if you don't like your job, well, then you're never going to have an opportunity to have excellence in your life. Especially in America, I think that we often ask people, right? Like, what do you do? We over-identify with our work, and for some people, work is just that. It's a way to pay the bills. It's a way to open yourselves up to other leisure pursuits. But that's where you get to pursue excellence, right? Like, you can pursue excellence as a musician. You can do it as a baker.

• 32:13Speaker 03

  You can do it as an athlete. And it's not a standard, right? It's not saying that you need to be world-class. It's the way that you approach the craft. You approach it with focus. You approach it with dedication, with commitment, with consistency, and you get better over time. I think the way that I train in the gym, for example, is very much aligned with this kind of excellence. Am I ever going to win an Olympic medal for powerlifting? Of course not. But I take it seriously. I make progress. I give it my all. And not only am I working towards that goal of lifting more weight, but that goal of lifting more weight is also working on me. It's shaping me as a person. And none of this is related to my day job.

• 32:52Mike Carruthers?

  So talk about doing this in a real way and maybe comparing it to somebody who doesn't do it in an excellent way. But just moment by moment, day to day, how is it different to do something with excellence versus not? I mean, it's one thing to talk about, well, you give it your all and you do the best you can. But what does that mean?

• 33:16Speaker 03

  It means a couple of things, Mike. The first thing that it means is that you have to be okay with making yourself vulnerable in risking failure. Just about everybody can remember there were kids back in high school that were too cool to try, right? They phoned it in in gym class, they sat in the back row, they never tried in music, and they did it because they were way too cool. But the truth is, they weren't too cool. What they were is they were insecure and they were scared to fail. So instead of giving something their all and making themselves vulnerable to failure, they just never tried. And I think so many adults have yet to outgrow this tendency. So it's one thing to say that you care, it's one thing to say you're gonna give something your all, it's another thing to actually put yourself in the arena and make yourself vulnerable and risk failure.

• 34:00Speaker 03

  And you don't get excellence unless you're willing to do the latter. So that's the first thing. The second thing is really approaching what you do with an intentionality and a focus around it. So excellence is the opposite of going through the motions. You want to be extremely present for what you're doing. And in the modern world, that often means that you have to design your environment to help you become more present. Depending on what your activity is, it might mean leaving the phone behind, it might mean trying to select certain people to do it with, it might mean having a 10-minute prep session where you get into the right headspace to approach your craft. But it really demands a level of intention and focus that feels different than just the going through the motions of everyday life.

• 34:45Speaker 03

  And then I think the third factor that is really important is consistency. So it's less about a commitment to intensity, and it's more about a commitment to consistency and to showing up again and again over time. And as you do that, the relationship that you forge, not only with your activity but also with yourself, becomes that intrinsic reward that keeps you coming back.

• 35:06Mike Carruthers?

  But don't you ever have days where you just go through the motions? I just don't have it today, and it's okay.

• 35:13Speaker 03

  Oh, absolutely. To deny that is really to deny our humanity. We're not optimized robots, we're people doing the best we can in a chaotic world. I think there, the practice becomes, how do you try to stop a bad day from becoming a bad week? And then when you have a bad week, how do you try to stop a bad week from becoming a bad month? There's this concept that I think is so important, and it's called raising the floor. And oftentimes, we think about, well, how can we make our great days better? We all index on our best days. But the truth is, we don't often control when our best days are going to happen. For all that we know about human performance, there's a lot of magic to it. But what we don't think about nearly as much is our bad days.

• 35:56Speaker 03

  And how can we make our bad days just a little bit better? Or, as I was saying earlier, how can we ensure that one bad day doesn't ruin the rest of our week? And I think that all that is part of the practice, too. So, yes, it's a long-winded answer to your original question. We are absolutely going to have bad days. Everyone does. But then the practice becomes, well, how can you get curious about why you had that bad day? And how can you try to short-circuit it from ruining the rest of your week?

• 36:20Mike Carruthers?

  So, help me understand how to raise that floor. How do you make a bad day not so bad?

• 36:27Speaker 03

  I think it's just about being in the moment, acknowledging that, all right, it's just not there today. So, in the moment, what you can do is you can tell yourself, all right, I'm acknowledging that it's just not there today. I don't feel my best. What's the best I have to give today? So, it's quickly acknowledging what's happening, not denying it, not resisting it, not trying to power through, and then adjusting your expectations for what you have to give, giving it, and then not beating yourself up after. Because what happens when you beat yourself up is then you get into this guilt and the shame spiral, and that's when a bad day becomes a bad week. Whereas if you can just say, like, all right, it wasn't there today. I adjusted. I gave it my best shot. I'm going to rest. I'm going to recover. I'm going to try to get a good night's sleep, and we'll see what happens again tomorrow.

• 37:07Mike Carruthers?

  Do you have to enjoy the activity to be good at it, to be excellent at it? Because the gym's a good example, because I go to the gym a lot. I don't like going. I like the feeling of leaving, the feeling you get after it's over. But going there... It's just become a habit that I feel worse if I don't go than if I do, so I have to go. But I don't love the experience. I do it. I keep track and all that, but you know what I mean?

• 37:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, so what I would say is that you're going to the gym for probably a different reason. My guess is you're going to the gym because you value your health. You probably value your cognitive health because your brain is your greatest asset and you've got a really good one on your head and inside your skull. So you're probably not pursuing excellence in the gym. I would turn that around, though, Mike, and say, what about when you podcast? And when you're in the pocket of just recording a really good episode or a good string of episodes or where you feel like the last month you've just been putting out bangers? My guess is that you enjoy that a lot more. And this is the area of your life where you're excellent and where you're pursuing excellence. And that's okay. It's unrealistic to try to be excellent at everything because you're not going to be excellent at everything. But in order to really be great at something, yes, you have to enjoy it.

• 38:24Speaker 03

  And I think this is another one of these misnomers with pseudo-excellence. You have all these guys on the internet and they run around pretending to be Navy SEALs, talking about how great they are at suffering and how hard everything is. Guess what? No elite athlete, no elite artist, no great writer hates writing or doing sports or making art. They might find it really challenging. They might find it very hard. They might have bad days. But the totality of the experience, of course, they like it. Because if you don't enjoy what you do, if you don't have fun, then you're not going to last very long. There's this enormous misnomer that intensity and joy are separate, in their opposites. But what I found in my reporting and my research is that actually, intensity and joy can often coexist.

• 39:05Speaker 03

  Like, you can bring your all and be really intense about something and have a great time doing it. And when you have that combination, that's when really good things tend to happen.

• 39:15Mike Carruthers?

  Do you bring this to everything you do that you enjoy? I mean, if you're going to scramble an egg, are you this intense about it? Or this is for a few select things in your life?

• 39:29Speaker 03

  It's got to be for a few select things. I think that, as I was saying, if you try to bring this to everything, like, you're just going to burn yourself out and you're probably not going to enjoy or be very excellent at any of the things. So I think this is for one or at most, two things in your life. So a lot of people have a primary craft and then maybe there's a secondary craft. So in my own life, I bring this most to writing. That's my craft. I'm very lucky. It's also my profession. And then as an athlete, I try to train with this mindset most of the time, but certainly not all the time because it's secondary. There are times when I'm in the gym and I'm checking my email in between sets because it's not my job and that's okay. If I tried to do this when I was scrambling an egg, I think I'd be miserable and burnt out all the time.

• 40:12Speaker 03

  And then there are things in life that like we should just enjoy for their own sake. You know, I'm not trying to be excellent at watching Netflix. Sometimes I watch Netflix just because I like it. So I am not arguing that we should be perfectionists and we should be these type A buttoned up pushers in every domain of life. What I'm arguing is that we should pick one or two activities that we do enjoy and that we want to push ourselves in, not just because we're excited about the results, but because we think that the person we're going to become along the way is aligned with our values and we should bring this orientation to those select activities.

• 40:46Mike Carruthers?

  And what is that? When you say, you know, there is a benefit to that, what does that look like? I mean, what is that? Is it a feeling? Is it? What is it?

• 40:56Speaker 03

  I think that it is a connection to yourself and a feeling of deep satisfaction and fulfillment. And without getting too philosophical, I think that one of the biggest challenges or problems of modern life is alienation. And alienation is just a fancy way of saying we feel a disconnect from each other, we feel a disconnect from ourselves, and sometimes we feel a disconnect from our own lives. We're going through the motions. We're constantly distracted.

• 41:26Speaker 03

  I think that when you pursue excellence, you get really close to a craft. You get intimate with it. It requires deep focus. You get competence, you get mastery. And not only do you get to learn that craft in a deep way, but you also get to learn about yourself. And I think that that intrinsic reward is really the whole point of the entire endeavor.

• 41:48Mike Carruthers?

  And is this a good way to determine if you're maybe not so good at something? If you give something your all and you're not happy with the results, maybe this isn't you.

• 42:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's right. And it's totally okay to quit. There's a lot of talk about grit and grit is really important. It's passion, it's perseverance, it's stick to itiveness, and you absolutely need grit. But you also need fit. And fit means that the activity that you're doing is one that you have some natural ability for, that your temperament is suited towards and that you enjoy. And if you don't have fit, then it makes no sense to lean into grit. What you need to do is quit. So all these words rhyme, which is nice, but it's not just soft and fluffy. This is a real important concept. It makes sense to try a bunch of things, to quit early and often until you find an activity where the fit is there, where you like it, and even when it's hard, you know, you find satisfaction in doing the hard thing.

• 42:46Speaker 03

  And at that point, you want to lock in and you want to have stick to itiveness and grit and persevere. I know this in my own life. If I think back to my schooling, I was not at all gritty in math and science. I quit math and science pretty early. I was not very good at them and I didn't like it. I was a very gritty writer. Why? Because I had some natural talent and I was good at it. So I think it's important to know ourselves to the extent we can and to try to be discerning about when are we going to lean in and really buckle up and bear down versus when are we actually going to quit and try something else that we might enjoy more and we might be better at and we might learn more from.

• 43:25Mike Carruthers?

  There's a perception, I think people have, that to be excellent, you have to be really intense and give 110% all the time to be excellent at something. And it seems impossible, and I can use myself as an example. I mean, I've been doing this podcast. For almost 10 years now, and I think I try to bring a lot of excellence to what I do. But it isn't like it used to be in the beginning where I was like so intense because I didn't know really what I was doing and I was trying everything and being very intentional and intense about it.

• 44:03Mike Carruthers?

  I'm much less intense and more relaxed now, but I still think I'm doing it as excellent a job as I can.

• 44:12Speaker 03

  Intensity doesn't mean any given moment or any given day. I think it's the totality of the work. It's the body of work. So when you zoom out and you say, "Let's look at the last decade of your work," I'd say it's been a pretty intense effort. It's definitely been a consistent effort. The body of work is heroic. Are you going to feel like you're heroic today, tomorrow, the next day? No, probably not. And that's actually for good reason because if you brought that level of energy every single day, you probably wouldn't be able to stay consistent. I think that people make these two mistakes around intensity. The first is again, the intensity and joy can't coexist, and that's just not true. The second is I think people often overrate intensity because they see the all-nighter,

• 44:56Speaker 03

  they see the person who works out till they puke, and they think like, "Oh, that's awesome. That feels so good to just really give it your all." And they underrate consistency. And consistency is the showing up day in and day out and actually showing some restraint because if you push way too hard, then you're never going to be able to get back and do it again for a long period of time.

• 45:15Mike Carruthers?

  So you say that focus is very important for excellence. You must focus. But what does that mean? What does it mean to focus?

• 45:23Speaker 03

  All right. So focus in today's world, to me, it's really actually quite simple. Simple doesn't mean easy, but it's simple. And it is just removing all the attention vampires and perpetual distraction devices that we otherwise surround ourselves with. So- Turning off your email client, putting your phone in another room, turning off the television, if it's on, really, digital devices in particular, like, these are the attention vampires. They just suck away our attention. And when we want to do meaningful, focused work, we need to remove these things. Like, willpower is never going to be enough. I know you've had prior guests who have pointed this out, that the way that these devices are designed,

• 46:06Speaker 03

  it's just way too strong and willpower is not enough. So what we have to do is we have to say, "All right, when I sit down to write, that's important for the next hour and a half. I want to be really focused. So that means that my phone is going to be charging in the basement. It's not even going to be on the same floor as me. And I'm going to turn off my email client. I'm not going to minimize it, so I see the little, you know, mail icon pop up and then have to resist checking it. I'm actually going to hit the X and quit the program for an hour and a half." So I think that we need to think about designing our environment to enable us to focus. And then focus, to me, is just the absence of distraction. And again, like, it's simple, but simple does not mean easy, especially in today's world.

• 46:44Mike Carruthers?

  From talking with people, what is it you think is the toughest part of this, of really grabbing something and going for it and being excellent at it?

• 46:54Speaker 03

  The initial resistance it takes to get started with something, especially when you're novice and you're not too good, and facing that initial resistance and expecting that the first couple of weeks or the first month of a commitment to excellence in anything is going to feel pretty hard and challenging, and at times uncomfortable. And you are going to make yourself vulnerable to looking stupid or to failing. Once you get through that initial resistance, then I think that the satisfaction, which is a word I keep using, because that's the big reward, the satisfaction of trying really hard, getting intimate with a craft, making progress, is so great that it keeps you coming back. But it's the initial resistance.

• 47:36Speaker 03

  It's the, "Hey, like you said, you know, I work a job. I'm an accountant at a big firm. I don't really care about being excellent at that. I think I'm good. I'm well-respected. I pay the bills. I pay rent. But, man, I haven't played guitar since I was in high school. And it's going to be hard to pick it back up. I'm not going to be as good." It's like, it's all of that that we just have to get over and throw ourselves into a craft. Otherwise, our leisure time is just going to be filled with scrolling TikTok, and that doesn't make for a very fulfilling life.

• 48:04Mike Carruthers?

  Ever since that book came out, decades ago, "In Search of Excellence," it's become such a buzzword that we've got to bring excellence to everything. And I think it's important to understand what that really means and the difference between excellence and pseudo-excellence. So I appreciate your explanation. I've been talking with Brad Stulberg. The name of his book is "The Way of Excellence: A Guide to True Greatness and Deep Satisfaction in a Chaotic World." There's a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes, and I appreciate you coming. Thanks, Brad.

• 48:37Speaker 03

  All right. I appreciate you. Bye.

• 48:40Mike Carruthers?

  Money can buy happiness really depends on what you spend it on. Scientists at the University of British Columbia gave people some hypothetical choices, like, would you rather have an expensive apartment close to work or an inexpensive apartment but a longer commute? Would you prefer a high-paying job with longer hours or a smaller paycheck but more free time? In addition, one group of participants was given an actual, real choice between $50 cash and a $120 housecleaning voucher. The people in all these cases, the people who were willing to give up the money in

• 49:22Mike Carruthers?

  favor of more time, a shorter commute, fewer hours, fewer chores, they were happier, according to the researchers. Why? Because leisure time lets you do fun things. Even if you have a million dollars, what good is all that money if you have no time to enjoy it? It's painfully obvious, though, that many of us make the opposite choice, prioritizing money over time. You spend your weekends mowing the lawn and cleaning gutters rather than hiring a handyman or a landscaping service. You take the indirect flight to save $200, but at the expense of six hours of your life. So it's worth remembering what really makes you happy when you create your budget.

• 50:05Mike Carruthers?

  Maybe you can spend less on material things to free up money for services that make your life easier. And that is something you should know. You know, a rating and review would be particularly helpful. They help in a couple of ways. They let other people know what you think of this podcast and it raises our visibility. It just helps in a lot of ways and it only takes a moment to leave a rating and review on whatever platform you're listening on. Five star ratings are particularly welcome. I'm Mike Herrothers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

• 50:41Speaker 00

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• 51:09Speaker 05

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