The Science of Goal Setting & The Truth About Denial - SYSK Choice

Ever wondered if there’s really a difference between hitting Restart and Shutdown on your PC? Turns out, there is — and knowing which one to use could save you a lot of frustration the next time your computer is acting up. I’ll explain why one option is far better when it comes to fixing problems. https://computer.howstuffworks.com/restarting-shutting-down-computer.htm We all say we want to do important things — but then somehow they never get done. Why do we procrastinate on the stuff that matters most, and how does that affect our lives? Rob Dial, host of The Mindset Mentor podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mindset-mentor/id1033048640 and bestselling author of Level Up: How to Get Focused, Stop Procrastinating, and Upgrade Your Life (https://amzn.to/48QRV8j), joins me to uncover the psychology of procrastination and share powerful motivation strategies that will get you moving on the life you really want. Denial is one of those tricky human tendencies — easy to spot in others, but hard to see in ourselves. And it can quietly wreak havoc on relationships and decision-making. Jane Greer, nationally known marriage and family therapist who has appeared on Oprah, The Today Show, Dateline NBC, and more, brings fresh insights into why denial happens and how to break free from it. She’s the author of six books on relationships, including her latest, Am I Lying to Myself?: How To Overcome Denial and See the Truth (https://amzn.to/48QvCzV) Negotiation doesn’t have to be intimidating. In fact, there are a few simple tactics you can use that are so easy yet incredibly powerful. They come straight from master negotiator Herb Cohen, author of Negotiate This! By Caring, But Not That Much (https://amzn.to/3rXYnK6). In this segment, I’ll reveal his strategies so you can walk into your next negotiation with confidence. PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS!!! INDEED: Get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Indeed.com/SOMETHING⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ right now! DELL: Your new Dell PC with Intel Core Ultra helps you handle a lot when your holiday to-dos get to be…a lot. Upgrade today by visiting⁠⁠⁠ https://Dell.com/Deals⁠⁠⁠ QUINCE: Layer up this fall with pieces that feel as good as they look! Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Quince.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns! SHOPIFY: Shopify is the commerce platform for millions of businesses around the world! To start selling today, sign up for your $1 per month trial at⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://Shopify.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mike Carruthers?

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• 0:42Mike Carruthers?

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• 1:23Mike Carruthers?

  Just go to indeed.com/podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need the right hire fast? Then this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Today on Something You Should Know, there's a difference between shutting down your PC and restarting it. A big difference. Then, how to get important things done without relying on willpower. The thing that I've realized from the highest performers is that they don't have the best willpower.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  They just create an environment where their willpower doesn't have to be tested. It's like some of the healthiest people, it's not they don't love ice cream. They don't keep those things inside of the house so that therefore their willpower won't be tested.

• 2:13Mike Carruthers?

  Also, great tips to negotiate for people who hate to negotiate. And dealing with denial. And a lot of us are in denial about something or someone.

• 2:24Speaker 02

  When you get left into denial so that you don't see people for who they really are, you don't deal with yourself for who you really are. When that starts to happen, you leave yourself wide open for getting kind of bit from behind.

• 2:38Mike Carruthers?

  All this today on Something You Should Know.

• 2:43Mike Carruthers?

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• 3:28Mike Carruthers?

  and track your orders all in one place. Clothes, electronics, gifts, things for the house, all kinds of stuff. And whether you win or not, it's worth knowing. But with a thousand chances to win $1,000, I'd certainly take a look. Enter to win the $1 million Shop Cash giveaway from now until November 1st. Just go to shop.com. There are so many ways to win. That's shop.com. Shopping designed around you. No purchase necessary. Restrictions apply. Official rules available at shop.com.

• 4:09Speaker 03

  Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today. Something you should know. With Mike Carruthers.

• 4:22Mike Carruthers?

  Hi. Welcome to Something You Should Know. Listen, if you use a PC as I do, I bet you've wondered, what's the difference? Or is there a difference between restarting your computer versus shutting down your computer and starting it up again? And it turns out, there is a difference. Quite a difference. And they should be used, those two functions should be used in different situations. Prior to Windows 8, restart and shutdown did basically the same thing. But they don't anymore. Since then, when you shut your computer down, it enables what is called a fast startup the next time you start your PC. In order to start quicker,

• 5:07Mike Carruthers?

  it doesn't really disable everything you had going before you shut it down. So it can start quicker the next time. Restart, on the other hand, shuts down everything momentarily. So if you're rebooting your computer because something is wrong, it's not working right, you should restart it, not shut it down. Remember, reboot, use restart. And that is something you should know.

• 5:37Mike Carruthers?

  I bet you have a list. It's a list of things, maybe it's in your head or written somewhere. Things you want to get done, that you want to achieve. Things important to you. But for whatever reason, those things aren't done. Something comes up. Things get put on the back burner. There isn't enough time. A lot of things get in the way. So why is that? If these things are so important, it seems like they should get done. But procrastination can be a powerful force. Here to help with this problem is Rob Dial. Rob is the host of the podcast, The Mindset Mentor. He's a speaker and coach, and he's author of a new bestselling book called, Level Up. Hi, Rob. Welcome to Something You Should Know.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Hey, thanks for having me.

• 6:24Mike Carruthers?

  So I just described what I think happens with a lot of people that aren't getting things done that they want to get done. And And I guess it starts with just taking action because no matter what it is you want to do, you gotta start somewhere. So what is it that keeps people from just taking action and getting started?

• 6:44Speaker 01

  The thing that I've found is there's three reasons why people don't take action. Number one is the identity that they have of themselves, and that comes from childhood, from their parents, from traumas, from bullies, from boyfriends, girlfriends, breakups, heartbreaks, all of that. Your identity is built from there. And we think that our identity is who we are. But your identity is just another way of saying your personality, and the root word for personality is persona. And persona was just a mask that that people would wear on stage back in in the Greek days. And so your personality could change at any point in time, which means your identity could change at any point in time. Like, some people say, well, I would love to lose 30 pounds, but everyone's overweight in my family, and it's just in my genes. And if that's your identity, then there's no reason to take the action that you need to to be healthier, or to lose weight, or to get yours

• 7:29Speaker 01

  to wherever you want to go. So that's identity can be a part of it. Another big part is fears, which people really always want to dive into is is the fears that they have. And so when you look at fears, there's usually a lot of fears that people hold people back. The fear of failure, the fear of success, the fear of rejection, the fear of not being good enough, not being smart enough, not being accepted. And what I have found is that there's really two categories of fears when you look at it. There are intellectual fears, and there's primal fears. Primal fears means that there's there's physical pain or death attached to it. There's very few of those that come up in our life in 2023. So most of them are intellectual fears, which are the ones that I just named. And then so when you look at it, you realize there's no pain, there's no physical pain, and there's no death attached to an intellectual fear, the fear of success or failure, for instance.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  And so what you really do is you go, okay, I've got this fear of failure. How do I overcome this fear of failure? And the secret to this is, I say, you can overcome something that doesn't exist. And that's the craziest part about it, is that we're creating the boogeyman every single day in our lives, and fighting the boogeyman. And in reality, he doesn't even actually exist. We're creating this fear of failure and then fighting the fear of failure. But it actually doesn't even exist. It's just intellectually created in our mind, and it holds us back from taking action. And so it ends up being something like procrastination. And people say, I procrastinate. That's the problem. I would say procrastination is a downstream effect of the problem. It's the it's the symptom, but it's not the cause. And so if you can go, I'm procrastinating, and then go, that's not the problem. What's

• 8:56Speaker 01

  behind all of it? It's usually some sort of fear or identity that's holding people back.

• 9:00Mike Carruthers?

  And when you talk about focus, I mean, that's a word that gets tossed around a lot. You've got to, you've got to be more focused. Well, focus, focus on this, what does that mean to focus?

• 9:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it means to bring as much of your mental energy to one task as you're doing it. So when you look at focus, the opposite of it is distraction. In, in the day and age that we're in, there's a million distractions everywhere. There's our phone, there's the emails, there's notifications, there's other people, there's the TV, there's Netflix, there's so many distractions. And so the first thing that I think of when I think of focus, to make it easier, I always want to make it easier to take action and create the life that I want. So the, the thing that's getting in the way of my focus, I should at least try to remove before I try to get better at focus, which is all of my distractions, all of the notifications, all of the other people and all that. And so then, once you can remove your distractions and find a place and, and create time, like I always recommend a Pomodoro technique, which is 25 minutes of work on one thing and one thing only and five minutes off.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  And in those 25 minutes, there's zero distractions. You don't have email up, your phone is in another room and you're able to put as much of your brain power as possible into that one task. And so when you ask what, what is focus, it's, it's the better you can get at focus and focus is just like a muscle, you can become better at focusing. That's a fact, we can all make our focus better, but I don't know about you. If I'm going to sit down and take action towards a task, I want to bring as much of my brain power to it as possible and that's what I see as focus.

• 10:25Mike Carruthers?

  And so when you talk with people about going after the life they want, what is step number one? What, what do you tell people, okay, well, if, if you want this, here's what you need to do. Step one is what?

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a good question. I think the first thing you need to do is figure out what you want. It's, it's amazing to me how many people don't have the life that they want. And then when I say, okay, what do you want? They're like, well, I don't know. And I, and so it's, but then I say, hey, what do you don't want? And people are like, oh, well, I don't want this. I don't want, I don't want to be broke anymore. I don't want to be struggling with my, my relationships. I don't want this, I don't want this. And I'm like, what do you want though? Well, I'm not really sure what I, what I do want. And we tend to focus on the negative of what we don't want instead of focusing on what we do want. There was, there was a few years ago, I was at a friend's birthday party and he'd rented out this entire course. And we were, we were riding around go-karts. They went like fifty miles an hour.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  And the guy who owned the go-kart place said to us, he goes, he's real funny. He used to be an ex-Lama driver. So he was like a real legitimate driver and real funny. He's a French guy and he was joking with us. And then he got really serious and he said to us, he goes, if you, he goes, somebody will crash. And if one of your friends crashes, do not look at the crash. I'm like, okay. He goes, no, look at me in my face. Don't look at the crash. Look past the crash and where you want to go. And he was, and I realized it was like a really good metaphor for so many people are looking at the crash and saying, this is what I don't want versus actually deciding what it is that you truly want in your life.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  And if there's, if you look through so many ancient texts, almost all of them say something along the lines of, asking you shall receive. And so few people are even deciding what they want and then asking for it. And so I think the first step of actually taking action to create the life that you want is like, building out the perfect picture of what would that perfect life look like? Putting it on a piece of paper and then waking up every single morning saying, I'm working towards this destination.

• 12:28Mike Carruthers?

  When you look at the people that do this well, what is it that they have in common that seems to add to the soup here? That, that makes them successful when other people fall short?

• 12:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's the environment that they create. And when I was studying really successful people, it wasn't that they had the best willpower. It's that they created environments where their willpower would not be tested as much as somebody else. And so for instance, the, the example I give of the Pomodora technique, where if you go ahead and you take your phone, you put it in another room, you put your email and your notifications off, you put your noise cancelling headphones on, you tell your wife and kids, don't bother me for the next time. I've got to really get something done. That leaves you space to only do one thing and that's to take the action that you need to. So let's say I'm creating a presentation for work. I could create. Can be distracted all day long and it could take me a day, two days to do it. Or if I can bring all of that focus and brain power to just that task, I could probably crank it up

• 13:29Speaker 01

  in at least half the time. And so the thing that I've, I've realized from the highest performers is that they're, they don't have the best willpower. They just, they just create an environment where their willpower doesn't have to be tested. It's like some of the healthiest people, it's not that they don't love ice cream and they don't love sugar. It's that they don't create, they don't keep those things inside of the house so that therefore their willpower won't be tested. And I think that's the important thing people to realize is that build an environment where your home life, but also your social life doesn't test your willpower to make you go in the direction that you don't want to go to.

• 14:01Mike Carruthers?

  I don't know if it's good or bad, but I think one of the things that motivates people to do things that they want to do or say they want to do is that they don't want to end up regretting not doing it. I, I mean, I know for myself that I often do things because I don't want to get towards the end of my life and look back and say, geez, I wonder what would have happened if I had done that. And I, and I think that fear of regret pushes a lot of people.

• 14:29Speaker 01

  You know, I had a father who was an alcoholic and he passed away when I was 15. And I remember looking at him when he was in the casket and thinking to myself, this guy had so many dreams and he had so much potential and he didn't bring it to the world. And I bet that if he knew early on that this would be how it would end, there would be regret there. Because he wasn't able to create the life that he wanted to. And I'm, I'm positive of that. And I think that's what's really important is that a lot of people have goals, but they have no idea why they want to hit those goals. And so it's about going deeper and saying like, why do I want that? If I want to make a hundred thousand dollars a year, why do I want to make that? Is it just because I want to make money? You know, you might be motivated just to make money, but eventually you're going to run out of your motivation. A client that I had years ago, and he wanted to make a hundred thousand dollars a year. And I was like, why do you want to make it?

• 15:13Speaker 01

  I want to make it because of this. And we went deeper and deeper and deeper. We did something called the seven levels of why, where I asked him why seven times in a row. And by the time we got done with the seventh one, the thing that he said to me was, the reason why I want to make a hundred thousand dollars this year is because I got a divorce from my ex-wife. She has custody of my children. She lives in a really bad part of town and I'm really concerned about the safety of my children because there have been drive-bys in their neighborhood and I need to make this money to put a down payment on a house, to get my children out of that neighborhood and hopefully have a better chance of them having more safety in their life, but also have a better education. And you realize it's the exact same goal. It's still a hundred thousand dollars a year, but the why behind it is the most important part. And so it's not necessarily

• 15:56Speaker 01

  the goal needs to change. It's the perspective of why they want to hit that goal is what needs to change. And if the why is strong enough, the how of how to get it done will always reveal itself.

• 16:06Mike Carruthers?

  My guest is Rob Dial. He is the host of the podcast The Mindset Mentor and author of the book Level Up.

• 16:16Speaker 04

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• 16:43Speaker 05

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• 17:13Mike Carruthers?

  So Rob, you know, I think oftentimes people don't grab on to goals or try to plan out their life because if you look back at your life, or maybe, maybe not your life, but if you look back at a lot of our lives. A lot of what happened was never planned. It's chance. It's encounters with people that just happen to change the trajectory of your life. And that planning your life and having a real concrete plan for your life is, maybe it's a good idea, but it's gonna change. It's never gonna go the way you plan.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  And I think that's okay. It's like, we can, one of the things I've realized as I've gotten older is, I remember when I was younger and I was running offices and all of this, I wanted to be in control of everything. And the more that I tried to control stuff, the more stress and anxiety brought into my life. And the older that I get, the more I realize I can almost control nothing. Like, I can, most people, I always say on my podcast, because I just say certain things out and say it the way I want to say it, is, is most people can barely control their bowels after Taco Tuesday. And you think that you're gonna be able to control the entire universe and every single person's perception of you and how they relate to you. Like, we want to control all of it. And really what it comes down to is you've just got to understand there's a few things in this world that you can control. One of those things is what you think.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  One of those things is how you feel. And another one of those things are the actions that you take. And outside of that, we can almost control nothing. The weather, other people, other people's perception of us, how they react around us. And I think what's most important, that a lot of people don't talk about, is, is being in alignment with what you feel you're supposed to be doing in your life. And I always tell people, because there's a part of the book where I talk about how to find your purpose. And I always say, it's okay if you're listening to us right now and you don't know what your purpose is, but it is not okay, now that you're aware that you don't know what your purpose is, it is not okay to not wake up every single day and be in constant pursuit to discover what that purpose is. And your purpose doesn't always have to be your paycheck.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  Your purpose can just be the thing that gives you energy and makes you feel more alive. And so I think a lot of people need to start asking themselves, it's like, what is my purpose here? What gives me the most energy? Because when you feel like you're in alignment, you can kind of trust that what's gonna happen is what's gonna happen, and you don't have to control everything. And I think that a lot of people want fulfillment in their life. And I think that fulfillment is a natural byproduct. Of taking the actions that you need to when you're in alignment with what your true purpose is. When you're in alignment with your true purpose, you put in a good day of work and you do things that you're proud of. The natural byproduct is fulfillment. I will a hundred percent have more energy after me and you talking than I did before me and you talking. Because this is one of the things that I absolutely love to do.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  And it's like, it's almost like the universe just provides me the energy to be able to do it. And so I think for most people, it's just discovering what it, what is my purpose? What is it that makes me feel aligned? And then what would make me feel fulfilled as a byproduct of taking action in that alignment?

• 20:13Mike Carruthers?

  But I bet if you were to ask random ten people on the street, what is your purpose? What is it that gives you energy? They would look at you like, what? What? I don't know. What, what's your purpose? So if you don't have a purpose, if you don't know your purpose, how do you set out on the journey to find one?

• 20:34Speaker 01

  There's a part that, there's a thing that's a Japanese technique that's called ikigai. And ikigai translated roughly over to English means reason for being. And the four questions you want to ask yourself to try to figure out what your, your ikigai is, which is your reason for being. Is number one, what do I love? And you just write down everything you truly love. It could be ice cream, it could be public speaking, it could be puppies. Put everything down. It could be racing cars. So what do I love? What am I good at? What can I be paid for? And what does the world need? And so like, for instance, if I were to guess with you, if you were to years ago before ever starting this podcast, say like, what, what is it that I love? What am I good at? What does the world need? What can I be paid for?

• 21:15Speaker 01

  You would probably, if you took enough time, eventually come to something like what you're doing now or public speaking in some sort of way. Because you probably love doing this. You probably love learning about people. You probably love sitting down with people and interviewing them. What are you good at? I've listened to your interviews before. You're really good at asking great questions, interviewing, doing the research. What can you be paid for? Hey, you can be paid for podcasting nowadays. So that is something you could be paid for. And what does the world need? The world needs more knowledge and more, more people they can listen to that are a few steps ahead of them in the world. And so if people ask themselves. Those four questions, it allows you to find a space where all of them overlap. And that's could be your the easiest way that I found for to find your your reason for being.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  And then the last question that I add to Ikigai, which is just one that's not in there. It's like, what am I really interested in learning about? There's a lot of things that people are really interested in learning about, and they don't have any skill set at it. But they're like, this thing really intrigues me. If you could find the overlap of those four or five things, usually you're going to find something that you're really passionate about doing with your life.

• 22:17Mike Carruthers?

  I sense from talking to people that there's a lot of people who do have or have an inkling of their purpose, but they don't feel like they deserve it. They don't have the confidence to go get like, it it'll never work out. I don't really, you know, I've got to do something else. And there's that, I don't, I guess it's confidence or lack of confidence that that keeps people from giving it a try.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's it's also like another phrase for it is the imposter syndrome. And I think that it's a natural part of being a human because like, for instance, for me, when I I almost didn't start the mindset mentor podcast because Tony Robbins exists. Because I thought like, I was 29 at the time, back in 2015, when I started it. And I was like, who would listen to a 29 year old that's still trying to figure out life? When they could listen to Tony Robbins, who's like, in my mind, amazing. I was like, who would want to listen to me? Like, nobody would want to listen to me. And I had the idea for the podcast in in January of 2015. I didn't launch it until August of 2015, so eight months later. Because the imposter syndrome of not being good enough, not being smart enough, who the hell would listen to me? I'm not good enough for this. I'm too young. Someone that's in their 40s doesn't want to listen to some 29 year old stupid kid.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  And so those those kind of things were going through my head all the time. And and so I was like, I'm not going to launch, I'm not going to launch. And then one day I was like, I feel like I have value that I want to give the world. I'm going to at least give it a shot. And I saw that the average podcaster starts seven podcasts, has seven episodes, and then they quit. So I was like, I'll record 14 and then I'll just see how it goes. I'll see if I like it, I'll see if, you know, and it's it's just like dipping your toes in the water. Like, I'll see if people like it, I'll see if they respond, I'll see if I like doing it and doing podcasting. And and fast forward, eight years. Years later, I'm fourteen hundred podcast episodes in. And the craziest part about it is that, you know, almost three hundred million downloads is Tony Robbins's team reached out to me to ask him to be on my podcast. So I was like, this is a crazy thing of the, I almost didn't do it because of the fact he exists.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  And now, you know, he's, his team had, you know, Aston had him on the podcast. But it really comes down to, from our current perspective, like where we are, we might not be good enough yet. And that's fine. I wasn't a good enough podcaster. I'm way better eight years later in fourteen hundred episodes than I was then. And it's not about, it's, it's about realizing where we are right now, but realizing that we can grow ourselves into the person who can do whatever it is we want to, want to do. The, the journey of becoming, of being a human is about constantly evolving.

• 24:43Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, well, there is that, that instant gratification thing, I think. That people think that they have to be perfect out of the box, and if not, then why bother?

• 24:52Speaker 01

  Right. We always hear, someone's like, oh yeah, well, you'll never be perfect. You'll never be perfect. Perfect is so boring, if you really think about it. And what it really comes down to, I think, the, the perfectionism that we have is that we're really just afraid of being judged by other people. You know, if I'm not perfect, I'll be judged by other people. If I mess up with my words, I'll be judged by other people. And I think it really comes down to understanding that you just won't be every single person's cup of tea. And that's completely okay. And you shouldn't want to be everyone's cup of tea, because that means that you have to mold and make yourself a chameleon for this person, a different person, this person. And you just have to change yourself. And really what it comes down to is, is discovering who is your true authentic self? What is it that you want to create in this world?

• 25:34Speaker 01

  And can you create it authentically from a place of, of actually loving what you do? And if people love it, amazing. If they don't love it, no problem. But what really matters is that I'm creating what I feel like I'm supposed to be creating in this world.

• 25:48Mike Carruthers?

  You know, I always remember hearing this, I don't know who it was, saying that when they interview people towards the end of their life about the things they regret, it's almost never do people regret the things they did. It's, the regret is the things that they didn't do that they wish they had.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, when you bring that up, there's the book, The Five Regrets of the Dying. And the number one regret is that I wish I lived a life that was true to myself and not the life that other people expected of me. And this is a lady who worked in hospice for years and was talking with people that were at the end of their lives. And over and over and over again, the most extreme one that she heard, more than anything else, was that I wish I lived a life that was true to myself and not the life that other people expected of me. And it's like, man, how often do people... I'm the type of person, like Tony Robbins always says, success leaves clues. Well, also, happiness leaves clues, unhappiness leaves clues, regret leaves clues. I want to look to people who went through their entire life and had regrets and go, what can I learn from them?

• 26:48Speaker 01

  And if that's the number one regret that people have, I'm gonna go, okay. Well, that means that I need to find what is true to myself and I need to live that path and understand that some people won't understand it. People, if I decide that I want to switch my career and do this thing, someone might be 30 years old and they might be like, well, I want to go and start a coaching company. And their mom might be like, well, you went to school to be an electrical engineer. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You might get those responses, but if it feels true to your heart, that it is what you're supposed to do. Like, to start a podcast in 2015, I left a job where I was making over 200 grand a year. It made no sense logically to do that, but something in my heart felt like, this is the thing that you were born to do. If you continue down this path and don't follow it, you're going to hate yourself

• 27:33Speaker 01

  when you get older. And I've heard a quote one time that said, "Once you discover what your purpose and your passion is, if you don't follow it, it will end up destroying you." And that was, for me, one of the things that really drove me was, I feel like this is the reason why I was put on this earth. And if I don't follow it, I think that it will destroy me.

• 27:51Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, well, that's a powerful motivator. And it could work for anybody if you stop and think about it. I've been talking to Rob Dial. He is host of the podcast, The Mindset Mentor. And his book, a new bestselling book called Level Up. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. And there's a link to his podcast as well. Thanks, Rob. Thanks for being here.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Thanks, man. I appreciate it.

• 28:16Speaker 04

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• 29:15Mike Carruthers?

  I'm sure you're familiar with the phrase, "That person's in denial." In fact, it's easy to see denial in other people. It's a little more difficult to see it in ourselves. But we are all in denial to some extent, sometime. It can help you cope with life. It can also be a problem, because if you're in denial, you can't really see the truth. So here to help you understand what denial is, how it works, and how to deal with it so it isn't such a problem, is Jane Greer. Jane is a nationally known marriage and family therapist, and there's a good chance you've seen her on TV shows like The Today Show, Oprah, CBS News, Dateline, NBC, 2020, and others. She's the author of six books about navigating relationships.

• 30:00Mike Carruthers?

  Her latest is called, "Am I Lying to Myself: How to Overcome Denial and See the Truth." Hi Jane, welcome to Something You Should Know.

• 30:09Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

• 30:12Mike Carruthers?

  So what is denial? How do you define denial?

• 30:15Speaker 02

  Oh, I love that question. Denial is the inability to see reality. Denial is blocking out what is unpleasant, painful, or hurtful, or upsetting to you.

• 30:29Speaker 02

  And just not seeing it. It's like going emotionally blind. It's emotional blindness.

• 30:36Mike Carruthers?

  Well, isn't it? It seems like a little denial is probably a good thing, right? You don't want to see too much stark truth.

• 30:42Speaker 02

  Well said. You know, not only is a little denial a good thing, a little denial is a necessary thing. Denial is one of our defenses that help us cope with all the rough edges in life and manage and get through some of the events that are, you know, traumatic and shocking and kind of level us and and really make it more than we can handle. With that being said, when it takes over center stage in your life, when you get locked into denial so that you don't see people for who they really are, you don't deal with yourself for who you really are and what's actually going on in your life. When you start to lie to yourself, when that starts to happen,

• 31:27Speaker 02

  you change the landscape of your life, but you leave yourself wide open for getting kind of bit from behind once denial is no longer serving its purpose, because you can only block out reality up to a certain point, and then it will inevitably catch up with you.

• 31:45Mike Carruthers?

  So give me some examples of someone in denial that that like you're referencing there.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  A lot of times I see it with people dealing with their significant others in a relationship, in a family with a mother, a father, a sister, a brother. They stay locked in who they want that person to be, who they wish that person was, the mother they wish they had, the sister they wanted to have, the husband who they wish was not drinking or wish was fifty pounds lighter. And when they're dealing with that person, they consistently, over and over, deny who that person really is, hence they don't expect

• 32:34Speaker 02

  or see how that person's going to behave. And just a hallmark to denial, one of the most important things is when you're dealing with denial.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  You know you're in it because you always forget that this is exactly what happened the last time, that this is what the person said or did the last time. And each and every time, they behave in a way that is upsetting, or negative, or hurtful to you. It's as if it's the first time. It's like it never happened before and you're completely surprised and shocked, especially when they will tell you, "I'll stop, I'll stop drinking, I won't spend so much money, I'll, you know, I'll, I'll do what you're asking me to do." Anything that you ask of them, and they say that they will do it, and they don't. So that's one way that you know somebody's, that you're in denial, that you're not seeing

• 33:27Speaker 02

  the people that you love clearly, and you continue to get disappointed and hurt by their behavior, and angry.

• 33:36Mike Carruthers?

  Because you're pretending a different truth, like you're pretending he doesn't drink, or you're pretending he's 50 pounds lighter?

• 33:46Speaker 02

  So it's not pretending, Mike, it's denying, and when you deny it, you do not see the reality.

• 33:52Mike Carruthers?

  So what do you see? What do you see instead?

• 33:55Speaker 02

  You see instead, somebody who said they're gonna stop drinking, and when they, when you see them drinking, you say, "Well, they went to, they're gonna try this, they told me they go to AA, they're not drinking so much, it's only one drink a night." You start to minimize, and one of the components of denial that I talk about is you take a lot and you turn it into a little. So you take a whole lot of negative behavior, and you make it one little thing. People that are dealing with somebody in denial, um, I had somebody one time, their boyfriend left them stranded at a wedding, and didn't show up, and had them fly across

• 34:40Speaker 02

  the country to join them at, going to this wedding, left them at the hotel, didn't come and get them, and when they were reporting it, they said, "Oh, it was kinda kooky behavior." No, no, no, that's not kooky behavior. That's hurtful, hostile, thoughtless, selfish behavior, that...

• 35:01Speaker 02

  That person rearranged their work, took off from work, spent a lot of money. There's a lot of bad behavior that went into that. And when you turn it into, well, that's just kooky to make it okay and tolerate. That's denial.

• 35:16Mike Carruthers?

  And so the goal is to what? Because you can't make other people change. So what do you do instead?

• 35:23Speaker 02

  Exactly. The goal is to confront your own denial and see people for who they are. There's what I call demanders denial. Seeing that if you're dealing with a significant other, who may make demands of you, to prove that you love them, to take care of them, to go out of your way and do things for them, to call them, if it's a mom, to call her every day or call her three times a day. If it's a sister, to come and take care of her if she doesn't feel well, or to help her out with her kids or whatever. That no matter how much you do, it's never going to be enough. It's never going to be good enough. And you're always going to fall short and not measure up in their eyes.

• 36:07Speaker 02

  So the goal of denial is to really see that. And one, start to limit how much you extend yourself. And two, to change your expectations of what you are looking for from the other person. To know that you're not going to get the acknowledgement and the appreciation. Hey, honey, thank you. That really was helpful. Or what a great sister you are. You really bailed me out. Or, you know, I'd be lost without you. You're always here for me. You're going to get why didn't you? Or you could have, or you should have. Or you're never there for me, no matter how much you are, no matter what you've done. And when you realize that it doesn't matter

• 36:51Speaker 02

  how high you jump, the bar will always be raised. And you will always fall short. You start to see the person for who they are. The bottom line is, if you see somebody for who they really are, then you need to make some choices and changes in the way that you interact and deal with them. Because if you know that your friend is going to disappoint you repeatedly, or that your mother is going to always be angry with you no matter what you do, or that if you tell your father that you just got this great job and a great pay raise, and he's going to say something to the effect of, "That's all", and you're going to be diminished and feel badly about yourself. When you, when you really know that, you stop wishing and hoping,

• 37:36Speaker 02

  you use what you know to stop sharing so much, to start to put boundaries in place, to change and protect the way that you're involved with somebody so that you don't get so hurt. Or if it's a friend, you say, "You know what? I'm going to back up in this relationship. I'm not going to give so much. I'm not going to overextend."

• 37:57Mike Carruthers?

  What happens, or what would, or what typically happens when, using your example of, you know, you, you tell your father you got a, a raise or a promotion, and he says, "Oh, is that all?" What if you go to him and say, "You know, every time I tell you one of these things, you always diminish it, you always make it sound, and I really wish you'd stop doing that."

• 38:19Speaker 02

  That's a waste of time.

• 38:20Mike Carruthers?

  Why?

• 38:22Speaker 02

  Because you're dealing with somebody who, demanders denial, cannot see their own behavior, and will only come back at you, self-righteous and justifying their behavior. And you can try. I mean, I've had many people try talking to the significant other, telling them how hurt they are, or disappointed they are in their behavior, and they're met with... How could you ask that of me? Don't you know how busy I am? You don't appreciate how hard my life is. Typically, you're dealing with narcissistic behavior in the other person. And what happens with narcissists very often was when you confront them with your needs,

• 39:05Speaker 02

  they feel burdened, they don't feel understood, they don't feel supported by you, and then they get angry at you. So they'll only lash out more. I mean, you know, it's worth a try, but honestly, Mike, I've never seen anybody successfully get through to the demander who expects somebody to just, you know, give unconditional love and be unconditionally available.

• 39:29Mike Carruthers?

  It's interesting that, um, because it's on the surface, it seems like, well, that's the logical fix. You just tell someone, stop doing that, and then they stop doing it and everything's fine. But as you say, it doesn't work.

• 39:42Speaker 02

  No, that's called wish, that's the wishing and hoping. You know, if I talk to them and I tell them what I want from them, they'll change. They don't think they have a problem. You're the one who has the problem because you're not giving enough to them or doing enough for them. And you can't ask, you can, you can tell people what upsets you about their behavior, but you can't ask them to stop. You can say, you know, when you do this, it's very hurtful to me. It would be great if you didn't, but if you continue to do it, here's what I'm going to do. You know, if you're talking to a person who doesn't hang up the phone on, when you say, I've got to go, you can't say to them, hey, please, you know, when we're talking, you go on and on,

• 40:26Speaker 02

  and I have, when I say I have to go, I got to go, because would you please just hang up the phone? Not going to happen. But what you can say is, look, a lot of times when we're ending a conversation, you keep talking. So I need you to know that when I say I'm hanging up, I'm going to hang up. And then you go ahead and you hang up. That's, that's the boundary, telling them what you're going to do and the limit. And then you need to enforce it. And if they get angry, you, you say, well, look, I told you this is what I needed to do. You start to take care of yourself. So you don't tell other people what they need to do. You tell them what you're going to do in the face of they're continuing to behave

• 41:08Speaker 02

  in a way that is hurtful or painful or upsetting to you.

• 41:13Mike Carruthers?

  But when, like your example of the father who says about the promotion, oh, that's all, that's all you got? What's, what's the point of that? Why say that? What do they, what's, what's the payoff for them to, to, I mean, they have to know that when you say that, that's not the nicest thing in the world to say. So why do they do it?

• 41:36Speaker 02

  Well, that is a fabulous question. I think there are lots of reasons why people are angry and hostile and hurtful to the people that they love. Why do people say critical, nasty, mean things? Why are they mean? Why wouldn't they just be positive and supportive and loving? You know, a lot of people are disgruntled. A lot of people have resentment. A lot of people are empty. A lot of people become envious. They, instead of supporting their children, they feel rivalrous or get competitive or jealous, and so they cut them down. They don't want them to surpass. They don't want them to do so well. They want them to feel more dependent and vulnerable and needy and helpless and stay

• 42:21Speaker 02

  close to home. I mean, there, there's a potpourri of reasons why people are critical, negative, blaming, and just, just mean.

• 42:32Mike Carruthers?

  So what do you do, though, when you've got someone in your life and they're a family member? Because, you know, as you say, you know, friends you can back away from, but, you know, your mom's your mom, your dad's your dad. And, and so, so when you back away, if you try to, you know, not share so much, pull back a little bit, then they're going to criticize you for that. So it's like you can never win.

• 42:53Speaker 02

  That's the whole point. You can never win. It doesn't matter. I had people, I had, I had one gal, she used to call her mother twice a day, and then she cut it down to once a day. And no matter how many times she called her mother. It was never enough. And when she started to call in the morning, the mother would say, why are you calling me in the morning? You know I'm busy then. So she'd call in the evening. Why are you calling me at night? You know I'm tired then. It didn't matter when she called. It was never the right time and it was never enough. It's impossible to please this person. And, and that's the reality. So when you start to accept that, you do put limits in place for yourself.

• 43:38Speaker 02

  And you accept that they're going to be angry with you no matter what. You can call your mother two times a day. You can call her in the morning, in the evening, and then she'll get angry and upset that you're not calling her at lunch. It doesn't matter how much you do, they will be angry with you. And when you accept that, you learn to tolerate and say, you know what? I'm not responsible for their emotions. And if she's going to be angry with me, she'll have to deal with it. But you start to take care of yourself.

• 44:10Mike Carruthers?

  It does seem though that like, I don't know, maybe it's just my personality, but like, how do you not call them on it? Look, I call you every day. Now I don't call twice a day, but I'm still calling. Lighten up, get all, get over it. Or hey, there's a dial on your phone. If you need to call me, call me.

• 44:30Speaker 02

  They'll give you a whole line of malarkey. You know I'm this, you know I'm that. How could you expect this? They'll just get angry with you. Give it a whirl. I say to people, give it a whirl. If you want to try and bang your head against the wall, go ahead. But you're just going to get back resistance, resentment, anger that you're asking of them to do this. They are not going to see themselves. They're in their own denial. They're going to tell you, I'm 78 years old. They're going to say to you, I live alone. They're going to say to you, you know, I have to deal with your sister all the time. They're going to give you their laundry list of problems and what's, what they're dealing

• 45:15Speaker 02

  with and how dare you ask them anything.

• 45:19Mike Carruthers?

  I don't know, it just seems like, as you say, people are gonna be mad no matter what you do. So why not call them on it? And yeah, they might be mad, but they were gonna be mad anyway. So I remember when my father was alive, that when we talked, it was always because I called him. He almost never called me. And that bothered me. And the same thing held true for my siblings, that he did not typically call them. And so I took him out to dinner and I called him on it. And I said, why is it that you don't call me ever? And he said in so many words, I have a belief that children should call their father. And it wasn't up to him to call us.

• 46:03Mike Carruthers?

  And so I said, well, it's be fine with me if you wanted to call. And you know what, things got better. They didn't get a whole lot better, but he did start to call more often. And I'm glad we had that conversation.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  Well, I think that's wonderful. But it sounds like that was one area where there was a lopsidedness to the relationship. And it turns out it was based on a value system and a belief on his part, not a personality element that was across the board in the nature of how he behaved with everything. In other words, you know, if somebody is, oh, you always come to my house. For example, you know, you drive and see me. I'm not driving to you. There may be a value system or a belief that, you know, I expect you to come to me. And if you talk about it and you say, look, in this one instance, could we ever balance it a little more?

• 46:59Speaker 02

  That was great, that he was receptive and was more responsive. When it's not a belief system, when it's more innate in the person's personality and the way they behave, you're less likely to be successful.

• 47:16Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah.

• 47:16Speaker 02

  If your father was... Always making demands of you and expecting, you know, well, I'm the father and, you know, you should call me and you should visit me and you should do this for me and you should do that for me. And if it was always a one-way street, the likelihood that he would have heard you around that and then changed his behavior would have been smaller.

• 47:40Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, that's right. You made an important distinction there because it wasn't like he was demanding I call. It was just if I wanted to talk to him, I needed to call him. He wasn't going to be checking in on me. But you're really talking about people who make demands and are always disappointed.

• 47:55Speaker 02

  Exactly. That's what I work with people on is developing their emotional muscles, helping them see through their wishing and hoping the person was different and accepting the person for who they really are so that they can start to make limits and put limits in place in terms of how they are going to behave, what they're going to tolerate, how they start to see over and over repeatedly the same behavior so that they're not surprised. Oh my, I can't believe it. It's like, you know, ignore that man behind the curtain. Denial is the Houdini of the of the mind and the heart. It makes everything disappear. And you can't ignore that man behind the curtain. He's there and he's working the controls.

• 48:36Speaker 02

  And if you don't pull the curtain back, you're going to be out of control in your life. And certainly when it comes to infidelity, a lot of times people are locked in denial because they believe what they're told. And this is true in other aspects of denial. But, you know, you may broach the behavior in question and somebody will give you some explanation or excuse and you go, yeah, that makes, I could live with that. And that's denial. You just believe what you're told and go along with their denial of what they're doing.

• 49:11Mike Carruthers?

  It seems so much easier to see it in other situations, in other persons' relationships, like what's going on, that what he told you what and you believe that what?

• 49:20Speaker 02

  Exactly. You said it, Mike. Exactly right. We can all see the wool being pulled over the eyes of the people we love and we are confounded that how can they not see it? But that's the, that's the power of denial. I am Oz, the great and mighty, you know? And, and so I work with people to help them build their emotional muscles, to use what they know, to see people for who they are, so that they can recognize, you know what? It doesn't matter if I do this or I don't do this, because if I do it, they're going to be angry that it wasn't good enough, or didn't do it when they wanted me to. And if I don't do it, they're going to be angry. So I might as well take care of myself.

• 50:03Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, right. I might as well take care of myself. That's some good advice. I've been speaking with Jane Greer. She is a nationally known marriage and family therapist, and the name of her book is, Am I Lying to Myself? How to Overcome Denial and See the Truth. There's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks for coming on, Jane.

• 50:23Speaker 02

  Terrific. Thank you so much for having me.

• 50:29Mike Carruthers?

  Herb Cohen is one of the all-time legendary, great, sales trainers and negotiators. And he has some advice. In fact, he was a guest on this podcast way back in the beginning when we first started. And he has some advice that will help you negotiate anything better. First of all, dumb is better. Make the other person feel superior and smarter than you. When you say things like, "Ah, you lost me. I don't really understand." It throws the other side off balance and makes them slow down, which will work in your favor. Care, but don't care too much. The more disinterested you seem, the better the deal will likely get.

• 51:14Mike Carruthers?

  Walk away. If you don't like the deal, walk away and see if the deal doesn't get better instantly. You can always accept the deal later if you want to. And that is something you should know. I'd love it if you would leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. Usually there's a place where you can leave a rating and review, and we read them all. We appreciate them. They're very helpful, and it only takes a minute. I'm Micah Rutherford. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

• 51:47Speaker 04

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalised products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 52:14Speaker 06

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