Pod Insights Something You Should Know The Surprising History of the 7-Day Week & How and Why Cats Evolved into Pets - SYSK Choice About this episode How does tickling work? You can’t tickle yourself. But if you are the ticklish type, you’ll start laughing if you know someone is about to tickle you even though they haven’t touched you yet. This episode begins with the weird ways tickling works. http://www.livescience.com/3882-tickle.html
You know what is interesting about our 7-day week? It is totally artificial. In other words, the other ways we measure time - such as days, hours, months and years – those are based on the sun, the moon, the rotation of the earth and other things – but the week is just made up. Still, it seems to work very well. Imagine life without the week. Keeping a schedule would be extremely difficult. Here to discuss where the 7-day week came from and why it is so important is David Henkin, a professor of history at the University of California at Berkley and author of book The Week: A History of the Unnatural Rhythms That Made Us Who We Are (https://amzn.to/3InCDwl)
There are a lot of cat lovers in the world. So, how did cats become household pets in the first place? They haven’t always been. In fact, having an indoor cat didn’t become a normal thing until the 1930s. There is an interesting story here and here to tell it is Jonathan B. Losos an evolutionary biologist at Washington University and author of the book The Cat’s Meow: How Cats Evolved from The Savanna to Your Sofa (https://amzn.to/41PpAe1).
If you have valuables in your home, where do you put them, so a burglar won’t find them? Maybe in the freezer? In the closet? Well, you could but there’s a place burglars almost never look. Listen and I will tell you where that is. https://www.rd.com/list/where-do-burglars-look/
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:27 Mike Carruthers? Today on Something You Should Know, why you can't tickle yourself no matter how hard you try. Then, the seven-day week. It's totally arbitrary, yet imagine life without the week. It's impossible, and it's universal.
1:42 Speaker 01 Yeah, at this point, it's a global timekeeping system. There are no major societies that I know about that don't count regular, continuous cycles of seven days. But that wouldn't have been true if you'd asked me this question 200 years ago, or even 100 years ago.
1:57 Mike Carruthers? Also, where's the best place in your home to hide your valuables from burglars? And how cats and humans became so close? It's a fascinating story.
2:08 Speaker 02 A key development in the interaction of people and cats was the development of kitty litter, which was only invented in the 1940s. Before that time, the possibility of having a cat that just lived indoor all the time was very difficult.
2:21 Mike Carruthers? All this today on Something You Should Know.
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4:22 Mike Carruthers? Hi, welcome to another episode of Something You Should Know. Something I've always wondered is why is it that some people are so much more ticklish than other people, and some people aren't ticklish at all? I wonder this because I'm one of those people who is extremely ticklish. And that's not a characteristic that I enjoy, or am proud of, or probably shouldn't be saying that, because when people find out, then they tickle you, and it's not an experience I enjoy. But what's interesting, too, is that no matter how ticklish a person is, it's still almost impossible for anyone to tickle themselves.
5:05 Mike Carruthers? According to Paul Baze of the Institute of Neurology at University College in London, "It's because the brain is constantly predicting what is about to happen. Our reaction to being tickled is actually a defense mechanism that works as kind of a non-self detector. The tickle reflex requires a certain amount of surprise. When self-touch is expected, you don't feel threatened and the reaction is not activated. But even if you know you're about to be tickled, if someone is coming at you and you know they're going to tickle you, the element of surprise is still there, because you can't predict the exact time or intensity of the oncoming tickle.
5:46 Mike Carruthers? And that anticipation can actually intensify the ultimate feeling of being tickled." And that is something you should know. We have a lot of different ways to measure time: seconds, hours, minutes, days, months, years, decades, centuries. And pretty much all of them have some reasoning behind them, having to do with the sun, or the moon, or something. Except one: the week.
6:15 Mike Carruthers? We have a seven-day week for no practical reason whatsoever. Yet imagine what life would be like without the week. If you go to the grocery store every week, but we had no week, how would you express that or understand that? Without the week, we would have to have some other way to schedule our lives. We love the week. So where did it come from and why does it seem to work so well? Here to explain it is David Henkin. He is a professor of history at the University of California at Berkeley and author of the book, "The Week: A History of the Unnatural Rhythms That Made Us Who We Are." Hey, David, welcome to Something You Should Know.
6:55 Speaker 01 Hello, Mike. How are you?
6:57 Mike Carruthers? Great, thanks. So I have to admit, I've never really thought much about the week or talked about it as a topic of conversation. What is it about the week that makes it so interesting and made you write a book? And why are we talking about this?
7:12 Speaker 01 The week has always fascinated me. And partly why the week is because the week is a completely artificial unit of time. It's not really based on any natural, observable, natural phenomenon. And it's not a fraction, neat fraction of any other larger unit of time. It's totally conventional. Lots of parts of the world never had it. So I've always been fascinated with this weird thing that is the week. We sort of made it up. You can't see it. You can't figure out by looking at the skies if you've lost track of it. And lots of societies did just fine with that one, but we're so attached to it. So I've always been curious as to what it does for us or what it does to us to have this very peculiar time unit in our lives.
7:56 Mike Carruthers? Does everyone have a week? Is the whole, pretty much the whole world, week-centric?
8:04 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'd say at this point, it's a global timekeeping system. There are no major societies that I know about that don't count regular, continuous cycles of seven days. But that wouldn't have been true if you'd asked me this question 200 years ago or even 100 years ago. Lots of societies have not counted seven-day cycles or not counted continuous seven-day cycles or only had cycles that were fractions of lunar months or things like that, or didn't care about the number seven at all.
8:36 Mike Carruthers? So who came up with this? Where'd it come from?
8:39 Speaker 01 It seems to have two origins. I'd say the primary origin is Jewish, the Jewish Sabbath practice. So to have a Sabbath count required that you maintain that weekly cycle, that's one origin. The Romans also observed a planetary week where they identified each day of a seven-day cycle with one of the planets, including the sun and the moon as planets. That's where we get names like Sunday, Monday, Moon Day, Tuesday, which is different Mars, etc. So those are the two origins. And those two calendar systems kind of met in the Roman Empire, and then initially through Christianity, spread to other parts of the world, but not
9:23 Speaker 01 instantly and not evenly over the course of the next 2,000 years.
9:27 Mike Carruthers? And as clearly as arbitrary as the seven-day week seems to be, it has stuck, it works. And it makes you wonder why. I mean, it's been universally adopted, even though it's so arbitrary. I wonder why?
9:42 Speaker 01 Right. And you know, you could interpret that as it's been imposed on all of us, or you could interpret, as I think your question implies, that there's some special utility, some special value to having a seven-day cycle. Having a seven-day cycle doesn't necessarily mean that you rest one or two days out of seven, though that's typically how it's used.
10:07 Speaker 01 But yeah, counting cycles of seven days lasts. So whether it lasts because it's been imposed, or because of habit, or because of utility, I think is an interesting question.
10:18 Mike Carruthers? Well, I'm no biblical scholar, but in the Bible, there is talk of God creating earth and then resting on the seventh day. So doesn't that mean there was a seven-day week in the Bible?
10:31 Speaker 01 Well, there was and there wasn't within the Bible, right? The Bible says that God rests on day seven, but doesn't say that then God observes a cycle of seven days. It doesn't say then every seven days God rests, and doesn't say that therefore people rested every seven days. And it's not clear from Genesis, I mean, if you just read the Bible from the beginning, you'd have no sense by the end of Genesis that the story at the beginning is going to lead to a calendar of seven days. You might think that if people wanted to commemorate God's rest on the seventh day, they'd rest on the seventh day of every lunar month, or the seventh day of every year. It's only later in the Bible that there begins to be some sense
11:13 Speaker 01 that that story of creation could be linked to a calendar. So, the creation story is part of the meaning of the Sabbath for Jews and for Christians too. But it's not clear that that is like the beginning of it. It's not clear that just because there was a creation story in which God rested on the seventh day, that therefore people began observing weeks. And in fact, there is no evidence that people used the seven-day week as a calendar system for a society from many centuries after the Bible was written.
11:50 Mike Carruthers? But since it has lasted so long, it has become part of everything. What does it do for us? And does it get in the way of things? Or is it just, I mean, why does it, it continues on? So it must fill some need or some purpose?
12:09 Speaker 01 I think it fills different needs and different purposes, depending how it's used. I mean, not all societies that have observed the week have made it into a cycle of work and rest. But that is a primary thing that... That the seven day week does for people is it prescribes a regular rhythm of taking off from from work. As as we all know and complain about, most of us don't actually really get to take off one or let alone two days work every every seven days. But that's one thing that it could do for us. But it does all kinds of other things as well. It'll what interests me is that in the modern American experience of the week, from the
12:53 Speaker 01 early 19th century on, it enables us to schedule things. It enables us to to schedule activities with friends, with family and with strangers in certain patterns so that we wind up doing things every seven days or a certain number of times every seven days or a certain at a certain rhythm every 14 days or every 21 or 20. I mean, there's nothing that we do in patterns of five days or 13 days, but there are all kinds of things that we do in patterns of of of seven, and that enables us to to schedule things with other people.
13:29 Mike Carruthers? Yeah, but what you said is so true that, you know, we do things every Monday. We have a Monday meeting. We have a Tuesday, something else that it's it. There are a lot of things that fit pretty nicely into that weekly cycle that if you didn't have the week, you wouldn't have the cycle.
13:45 Speaker 01 Right, and the cool thing is that some of those things are very, very general, right? They're communal, they're shared, like all of us do a certain kind of thing on one day of the week, and some of them are very idiosyncratic. You know, your Tuesday and my Tuesday could be super different depending on what our therapy schedule was or when our gym was open or what kinds of sports we like to watch or, you know, whether we had a custody arrangement with a co-parent. I mean, there are all these very individualistic things that create our sense of our Tuesday.
14:18 Mike Carruthers? I was watching an old Seinfeld episode not long ago, and they were talking about the week and the days of the week and that Monday has a feel and Tuesday has a feel and Saturday has a feel. I've always felt that. I've always felt that days have a feel and without the week, they wouldn't have a feel because everything would be the same.
14:40 Speaker 01 I totally share your experience. In some ways, what got me interested in the week was my inability to explain exactly what that feeling was. And the Seinfeld episode to which you refer, if I remember correctly, the only thing that I think is odd about it is it makes Kramer sort of seem unusual or bizarre for thinking that days of the week have a feel, whereas in fact, it's not just Kramer, it's all of us. I think we almost all have some sense of what a Tuesday feels like, or what a Wednesday feels like. And it's mysterious, but my sense is that if you dig deep into it, it has to do with schedules and expectations of things. And the week is, as a scheduling device, is what gives
15:25 Speaker 01 it that feeling.
15:27 Mike Carruthers? Well, everybody must have that, because there isn't a person alive, I don't think, who hasn't said at one time, when the holiday throws the week off, you know, today feels kind of like a Sunday. Well, everybody says that.
15:40 Speaker 01 Yeah, so when I began thinking about this, that was the only explanation that people could give. They would cite that example, which is, oh, on a four-day work week, you know, suddenly Tuesday feels like a Monday, right? Or, you know, you take a vacation and suddenly your Friday feels like a Saturday. So it all had to do with the work and rest cycle. But sometimes, when there wasn't the holiday, you still felt like, today doesn't feel like a Wednesday. And you didn't quite know why. And so I think that what was really helpful for me in thinking about the week was to stop assuming that everything that the week does is generated by this cycle of work and rest. Cycle work and rest is hugely
16:25 Speaker 01 important, but then there are these other things, typically like things about Tuesdays and Wednesdays, that give it a feel that are not simply about how long we've worked since the last day we had off.
16:35 Mike Carruthers? We're talking about the week, our seven-day week, why we have it, what it does for us, and why it doesn't go away. David Henkin is my guest. He is author of the book, The Week: A History of the Unnatural Rhythms That Made Us Who We Are. This episode is sponsored by Vinted. You know, I remember interviewing an organizing expert who offered this really clever trick for figuring out which clothes you should get rid of. You go to your closet and you look at the clothes hanging there. And chances are, the ones toward the middle are the clothes you wear most often. But the clothes pushed way over to the left or the right, some of those you probably
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19:27 Mike Carruthers? cyber sale. Only available while flavors are in stock. With this incredible discount, that means you'll pay just 83 cents per night for the best sleep of your life. So seriously, think about it. I mean, how much would you pay for a truly great night of sleep? Beam is just 83 cents per night. So go to shopbeam.com/sysk now. That's shopbeam.com/sysk. So David, if you take a moment and imagine life without a week, it would be so different because we, you know, we take a week off. We go somewhere for a week. We do things,
20:10 Mike Carruthers? you know, every other week. If we didn't have that word, we didn't have that week, it would, imagine how, well, you can't. It's hard to imagine how you would, you would reference that.
20:21 Speaker 01 Partly why it would be really different is because if you didn't have the week, you probably would come up with units of time that are fractions of a month or fractions of a year. And, and because the week isn't, it kind of just stands alone. And so does this, does this completely different kind of work for us. One thing, Mike, that you mentioned that, that I think is, is interesting is that we don't only use the week to divide one day from another. We also use it to lump all the days together. Like, I'm gonna do this for a week, or I'm gonna look back on the week that I had. So we, we use it as a lumper as well as, as a splitter. So really, it does so many things in our mental map of the passing of time.
21:03 Mike Carruthers? Was the week always as it is now where there's the work week and then there's the weekend? I remember there were, I don't know why this stuck with me, but there was an episode of Downton Abbey where some people were over at the abbey and they were talking about the week and somebody said, well, we could do that on the weekend or something. And old lady Grantham says, what's a weekend?
21:25 Speaker 01 Right.
21:26 Mike Carruthers? And, and like she'd never heard of a weekend, like is it, has that, is that a new thing?
21:31 Speaker 01 In the United States, until the 20th century, Sunday was the only day of rest. So the idea of a weekend as being two days didn't really spread to most working people until the 20th century. And it was largely the result of union agitation and of the depression and crisis of, of underemployment. So before then, in the United States, the weekend was just Sunday. So you could call it the weekend, but it wasn't as common an expression because you could simply refer to it, Sunday, the Lord's day, or the first day of the week.
22:14 Mike Carruthers? And so at what point did Saturday become another day off?
22:18 Speaker 01 So in the 19th century, middle-class workers often had half-day on Saturday, teachers often had a Saturday off, schoolchildren had Saturday off. So Saturday as an additional day off or partial day off was known to lots of people in the United States in the 19th century. Sometimes people also had Wednesday as a half-day from school, for example. So there, there was some sense of there being other times of the week that were not as linked to work. But it was not until the 20th century that it became the norm for people to have a Saturday as well as, as a Sunday.
22:57 Speaker 01 So I would say the 1930s would be crucial transition where Saturday became a day off for a majority of people in the United States.
23:07 Mike Carruthers? I know you talk about how the pandemic kind of disrupted the week because every day seemed like every other day. And, and talk about that.
23:17 Speaker 01 The pandemic was interesting to me because all the comedy routines, all of the memes, all focused on Blur's Day, this notion that pandemic shutdown had unsettled our sense of our place in the weekly cycle. And my best explanation for it is that's just the cycle to which we're actually most attached. That's the one that requires our regular habits to perpetuate. All other cycles could be linked to other things, especially day and night. You can just look outside if you want. But the week is a fragile thing. If we don't have our regular seven-day habits, if we don't do the things that we're used
23:58 Speaker 01 to doing and the way that we're used to doing them, we get dislodged from our sense of time more generally, and the week is the best way of expressing that sense of disorientation. Because the week is the thing that we're most, in some ways, attached to. We're most worried about losing it because it depends on the frailty of human record-keeping. But we're also most attached to it because it's the one that makes a difference to our lives. If you think today is the 16th and it turns out to be the 17th, it's probably not going to cause you much inconvenience or much consternation. But if you think that today is Wednesday and it turns out to be Tuesday, it's first of all going to make you miss all kinds of appointments and do the wrong things, but
24:39 Speaker 01 it also is going to make you wonder whether you've just sort of lost track of time in some more fundamental way.
24:46 Mike Carruthers? What's the future of the week? Do you think that when you have things like pandemics that disrupt everything, that do people begin to question it? It seems like people would just race back to it because we have to have it. If we don't have it, what do we have? You know, like we were saying earlier, Thursday has a feel to it, but the 10th of the month doesn't have a feel to it. So you've got to have that.
25:13 Speaker 01 I think you do have to have that. I think the pandemic shutdown showed us how attached we are to it. The threats to the week, I think, don't come from things like pandemic shutdowns. The threats to the week come, and they were in place much earlier, come from things like telecommuting, you know, working from home, non-synchronized entertainment. So, for example, when I was a kid, a lot of what people thought was the feeling of Wednesday or Thursday had to do with what was on TV of those days. So that's gone. And it's gone except for sports. But scripted entertainment is now
25:51 Speaker 01 asynchronous, and work is often asynchronous or just, you know, irregular patterns. So those are the things that might make the week either less necessary or less powerful. We also don't need it as much as a scheduling device because our electronic calendars can hold appointments in place for us without relying on the regularity of a weekly of a weekly meeting. So those are the things that threaten the week. But I do think that you're right, Mike, that we cling to the week because there's nothing else like it, because it does encapsulate somehow our our sense of being
26:31 Speaker 01 in time, and because it reflects all the social arrangements that that shape our lives. I do think that the week is likely to to survive. The week has been attacked before by the French Revolution, by the Bolshevik Revolution. It was even attacked a little bit by American big business in the late 19th, early 20th century. Each time, the week survived unscathed.
26:58 Mike Carruthers? One thing we didn't attack directly here, and that is why seven days? Why not six? Why not eight? Why seven?
27:06 Speaker 01 So there have been different answers given. Some people have speculated that it has to do, maybe to do with the moon. That's, I think, a very unconvincing explanation to me because a quarter of a lunar cycle is not actually seven. Blue nations are closer to 30 days than the 29. So you might have expected a moon-based fraction to be five or six. So I don't think that works. Some people suggested that seven is a mnemonically useful number. That once you get to larger numbers, it becomes harder to remember all the constitutive elements. To me, that seems sort of plausible, but I don't think it would account for why so
27:48 Speaker 01 many different societies had seven and so many different societies didn't. So it really wasn't universal timekeeping system until relatively recently. Traditional Christians, Jews, Muslims would might say that seven is built into the fabric of the universe by the creation story. One might argue that something about the psychology or the physiology of the human body requires rest every seven days. Again, all these things are plausible, not the moon one, but the other ones are all plausible, except they don't really account for why so many societies did just fine without seven. They might account for why seven has stuck, or why a couple of societies agreed on seven
28:33 Speaker 01 in the first place. But as you can tell by my tone of voice, I'm a little agnostic about the magic of seven.
28:41 Mike Carruthers? Well, I always enjoy talking about topics here on this podcast that I never knew were topics of discussion, and this has certainly been one of them. I've been speaking with David Henkin. He is a professor of history at the University of California at Berkeley, and the name of his book is "The Week: A History of the Unnatural Rhythms That Made Us Who We Are." And there is a link to that book in the show notes. Appreciate it. Thanks, David.
29:08 Speaker 01 Okay, cool. Have a great day.
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32:25 Mike Carruthers? I have to admit, I'm more of a dog person than a cat person, but I've owned cats. I like cats. A lot of people own cats, or have owned cats, or will live in a house with cats. And we've never really done a segment that explores the life and the world of cats, and how they've come to be one of our favorite pets, and how are they related to other felines like tigers? Where did they come from? How did they get domesticated, and why? And what is it about cats that people find so intriguing? Well, here to discuss this is Jonathan Lossis. He's an evolutionary biologist at Washington University and author of the book, The Cat's
33:08 Mike Carruthers? Meow: How Cats Evolved From the Savannah to Your Sofa. Hi Jonathan, welcome to Something You Should Know.
33:15 Speaker 02 Well, thank you so much for having me here.
33:18 Mike Carruthers? So what is a cat? Where do cats come from? Why are they here?
33:23 Speaker 02 Well, that's an interesting question. I mean, everyone knows what a cat is just by looking at one. And it turns out that the first cat that was discovered in the fossil record, the ancestor of all cats, as far as we can tell, evolved about 30 million years ago. And it pretty much looked like a cat. Its legs were a little bit shorter than most cats, but if you saw one walking down the street, you would say, hey, that's a cat. And so, I mean, I could give you the technical aspects of the anatomy that define members of the felidae, the cat family, but essentially, a cat is a cat, and no one's going to confuse one with something else. And that's been true throughout the evolutionary history of this
34:03 Speaker 02 group. There has been variations, bigger and smaller, spots on the coat, and so on. Of course, there were the saber-tooth cats, but essentially, they've all been cats.
34:13 Mike Carruthers? And the cat family, how big is the cat family?
34:18 Speaker 02 Well, today, there are 42 living species. And I think people might be surprised to hear that, that there are so many. Everyone knows the big cats. Those are the celebrities of the cat world, the lions, the tigers, the cheetahs, and so on. They have their own week on National Geographic, and everyone knows them. The little cats, though, which I'm defining as cats that weigh less than 50 pounds, are much more common. And I like to ask people, can you name species of cats less than 50 pounds? And the two that people usually get right away are the ocelot and the bobcat. But after that, people often are stumped. But there's all kinds of obscure cats that no one has heard of.
35:02 Speaker 02 The tigrina, the oncilla, the marbled cat, the Bornean bay cat, the rusty-footed cat.
35:08 Mike Carruthers? So the cat that we think of when we see a cat, did it evolve from these bigger cats? Or is it just they're related, but they took different paths?
35:20 Speaker 02 Well, that's a great question. And scientists have been studying that for quite some time now. And the consensus, it's pretty clear at this point, that the domestic cat, which is what we call the species around us, technically felis catis, the domestic cat evolved from the African wildcat. This is a species that is found throughout Africa and into the Arabian Peninsula and Western Asia. And they actually look very much alike. That if, I like to say that if you saw an African wildcat in your backyard, your response would not be, what's an African wildcat doing in New Jersey? But it would be, what a beautiful cat. I've never seen one quite like that.
36:02 Speaker 02 So they are very similar in their anatomy, and it turns out in their DNA as well. But it's very clear that that was the ancestor of the domestic cat, and that domestication probably occurred somewhere in the area called the Fertile Crescent that stretches from Turkey, Syria, Israel, through to Egypt. And where civilization really got its start, where people first settled down and lived in villages, and agriculture developed.
36:27 Mike Carruthers? And somebody said, "Let's go get that cat and make it a pet," or it had some other agricultural purpose, or what was the path to domestication?
36:38 Speaker 02 Well, the probable path, and this is actually very hard to study, actually, but what seems very likely is that when people started living in villages and growing crops and agriculture really took off, well, as you know, when farmers grow crops, there's the good season and the bad season. So you grow as much food as you can when the seasons are right, and then you store the food for the rest of the year in granaries or whatever. Well, when that happens, the logical, obviously what happens next is that rodents are attracted. Mice and rats see this bounty of food in this building that they can easily go through
37:18 Speaker 02 the walls, and so they start, the rodent population explodes. Well, in turn, African wild cats are no dummies, and they realize there's all these choice yummy rodents right there, and so they are attracted to live around the villages. But the important thing that to keep in mind here is that animals have personalities. This has been a very vibrant area of research in the last few years. And by personalities, I mean behavioral tendencies. Some cats behave differently than others, just due to their predispositions, just like people. And so to anthropomorphize, there might be some cats that are bold and
38:01 Speaker 02 curious, and others that are scaredy cats. They're timid and afraid. So the ones that are bolder, using the term loosely, may have been willing to go around villages to be near people to take advantage of the rodents. And those would be the ones that benefited, that they would get lots of food to eat, and so they would have lots of kittens. And as a result, the genetic mutations that are responsible for those behaviors would become more common in the population. And so it would be a A phenomenon that that the cats that are willing to hang around people do better. And in turn, people may have seen the benefit of these cats. So maybe they started putting out a little food for them to to encourage them to be around.
38:45 Speaker 02 Or maybe they gave them shelter, a warm, a warm spot to sleep when at night or day when they were sleeping. And so this back and forth where the cats that were willing to do this benefited. And then people encouraged it even more. And eventually the cats were hanging around the village all the time. And maybe people started petting them. And you can see how this this co evolutionary walk would lead to the African wildcat turning into the domestic cat.
39:11 Mike Carruthers? So I get that, you know, cats serve a purpose that having them around is good to help keep the rodent population down and all. But cats, you know, compared to dogs, say, do seem more aloof, that they're not as clingy and happy to see people. That they that they might be good to have around outside, but but at some point. Who was it that said, well, you know, let's have them live here?
39:35 Speaker 02 Let me answer that in a couple of ways. First is that the most likely scenario for dog domestication is pretty similar. That the curious or boldest dogs start hanging around people. And in this case, probably eating the scraps in the in the trash and so on. But it probably occurred in a very similar sort of scenario. But it happened a lot earlier. The archaeological records suggest that dogs may have been domesticated 15,000 years ago or even earlier. The genetic data suggests it might have been closer to 30,000 years. So dogs have been domesticated longer than cats have. And so maybe the difference is just due to time. But there's another another possibility. And and that is that dogs are pack animals.
40:20 Speaker 02 And so somewhere during the domestication process, humans were able to substitute ourselves as the alpha, the alpha dogs, if you will. That's a gross characterization. And so we've been able to take over the lead and dogs have have just adapted their pack living behaviors and directed them towards us. And so they may have been predisposed to become much more intimately involved with people than cats were. So that may explain the difference. On the other hand. There is a, there is this idea that cats are aloof loners, and that is not entirely true. It turns out that in places where cats occur at high densities, they actually are very,
41:05 Speaker 02 very social with each other, very amiable to each other. And in fact, they form groups that are very similar to the prides of lions, that lions are famous for living in groups that are composed of related females, and these females are extremely friendly to each other. They groom each other, they lie on top of each other, they actually help raise each other's young. And, not the males, when they grow up, they leave the pride, but the females stay put, so they're all related. And it turns out that in places where cats, where there's a lot of food, cats will occur at high densities. And that food might be because people are, are just putting food out for them, as happens in many places around the US and elsewhere.
41:47 Speaker 02 Or it may be in places where, like fishing villages, where there are big piles of scraps that the cats eat. But in any case, the plentitude of food allows the cats to, to occur to high density, and they live in groups that are very similar to lion prides. They're groups of related females that are very friendly to each other, they groom each other, they help raise their young, they even sometimes serve as a midwife and help during, during the birth of the kittens. And so they, they are very friendly to each other. Now, there will be multiple groups of cats in one place, and they're not friendly at all to members of other groups, but they are friendly to their own groups. So, under some circumstances, cats can actually be very friendly to each other.
42:30 Speaker 02 One, one last thing, there are some breeds of cats that have been developed that are extremely affectionate, almost could be mistaken for dogs in ways. And so cats do have that possibility, but it has to be brought out.
42:43 Mike Carruthers? Well, I was gonna ask you because, you know, when we think of lions, other big cats like that, that they do live in groups, they have, you seldom see them out on their own. But domesticated cats seem to do just fine by themselves, and maybe they could be social, but they seem to do just fine if they're not.
43:04 Speaker 02 Well, now, the lion is actually the only wild species of cat that does that, that lives in groups. The cheetah is somewhat of an exception. Brothers will band together to try to control a territory and work together to control the territory and mate with the females within it. But with that exception, there are no other wild species of cat that live in groups. And so the fact that the domestic cat does this, at least under some circumstances, is really an interesting parallel. It's really true social living in groups and friendliness. It's only the domestic cat and the lion.
43:39 Mike Carruthers? And when did people, in a big way, start bringing cats in as pets and getting them for their kids? And I mean, did that catch on pretty quick when this domestication started a long time ago? Or is this more of a recent thing?
43:56 Speaker 02 Well, I want to answer that at two time scales. Going way back in time, the first archaeological evidence of cats and humans living together is about 10,000 years ago, from an archaeological site in Cyprus, an island in the Mediterranean near Turkey. But we don't know if that was a domesticated cat or just a wild cat that had become somewhat tame. We do know that domesticated, that cats were domesticated by the time of the Egyptian civilizations. That 3,500 years ago, we can see paintings on tomb walls and sculptures that clearly reveal cats living in a domesticated way, wearing collars and going on outings
44:40 Speaker 02 with the family and eating food underneath the table and so on. So historically, cats really became pets, certainly by the time of the Egyptians. And the question is, Did it actually happen in Egypt? Or did it happen somewhere else? And then the cats came to Egypt? And we don't know the answer to that. More recently, a key development in the the interaction of people and cats was the development of kitty litter, which was only invented in the 1940s. And before that time, the possibility of having a cat that just lived indoor all the time was very difficult. And so most cats were indoor-outdoor cats. And as a result, were not as intimate family members, oftentimes as cats are today.
45:24 Speaker 02 But since the advent of kitty litter, that's really changed the ability of people to have cats as pets that stay inside all the time.
45:33 Mike Carruthers? If you were to, well, how intelligent are cats? And I guess you need some barometer or some something to compare it against. So maybe dogs or, but, but just a sense of like, are they trainable? Do they know what we're saying? Are they, what, how smart are they?
45:50 Speaker 02 Well, they're very smart. Cats are very smart animals, as are dogs. And it's, you know, we could get into this argument back and forth. It's a little bit of apples and oranges, because it's, it's hard to directly compare the two animals. And in particular, part of the reason it's hard is because of dogs' nature, it's easy to do experiments where you can test how quickly they learn, because they, they love being rewarded, particularly with attention and affection. And so it's easy to, to train a cat, sorry, to do an experiment to see how a dog, how quickly can figure things out. Cats can be a little more difficult to do these experiments, but people have done them. And it turns out cats are just as smart as dogs, you know,
46:34 Speaker 02 as a chauvinist, I'd say even smarter than dogs. But they're certainly very smart. They, they, they do know their names. They can tell when a person, when they're, the person they live with is talking to them as opposed to talking to another person. They can be trained, actually. There are whole books on this, and it's not actually that hard. It's the same principle that you, that, that you train a dog. You just reward them for the behaviors that you would like them to perform. And the reward is food. Cats are very food oriented. So overall, cats, cats are very smart. They can figure things out and they understand their names and other, and other, you know, you can do many different tests and they show that they're very smart animals.
47:17 Mike Carruthers? My dog is very food oriented, constantly.
47:21 Speaker 02 Yep.
47:22 Mike Carruthers? All the time.
47:23 Speaker 02 Cats are even more so, because dogs sometimes will settle for affection and sometimes cats will. But if you really want a cat to do something, give the cat a treat.
47:32 Mike Carruthers? I've always been more of a dog person because I've had several dogs growing up. But I did have a cat and a rather amazing cat. And what made it so amazing? And I've heard other stories like this, that when I was like 12 years old, my family moved to England for a year. And the neighbor said, "Well, we'll take care of the cat."
47:59 Mike Carruthers? Well, the cat didn't get that. The cat kept going back to our house and we had rented the house out and the people who were renting the house were getting really tired of that cat. So they kept the cat out. And finally, the cat ran away, just disappeared. And we came home and we didn't know this and the neighbor said, "Yeah, the cat ran away." Three years later, I walk in the house and there's the cat sitting where its bowl used to be, waiting to be fed.
48:30 Mike Carruthers? And I'm just floored by that, that how a cat... I mean, we have no idea where it had been. It looked okay, looked well fed, and it stayed. It came back and it stayed. And I thought, "That is amazing."
48:45 Speaker 02 I would have to agree with you, Wes. It's a great story. I have heard some stories like that. It does happen. Cats and dogs are renowned for returning to their old homes when people move. That's very well established. But I've heard of stories of dogs and cats showing up several years later, just as you described. There's an interesting, if I can take a tangent to that story. People, researchers have started... Studying pet cats to see what they do when they go outside. And now, in the United States, most people don't let their cats out, but some people do, and it's more common in other countries. And so the way they research this is one of two ways. They either put a little tracking device on the cat,
49:30 Speaker 02 and you can then, these days, you can just follow it, where the cat is doing on your computer or even your cellphone. And you get very accurate readings of where the cat is. And as a result, you can see where it's wandering to, how far away from home it goes, and so on. The other thing is, is people, researchers have developed little cameras that you put around the cat's neck, on its collar, and you can get the cat's eye view of what it's, where it's going and what it's doing. And you can actually buy both of these now as commercial products, although researchers use higher-quality ones. And anyway, there are all kinds of fascinating things about the behavior of these cats outside. But the one that I think is kind of funny is, there are a number of cases, it's quite common,
50:12 Speaker 02 that when Bill Smith tracks his cat, it turns out that it visits the neighbor's houses, and it goes in through the cat flap, or maybe the owner lets them in, and they have multiple homes. And they will eat the other, the resident cat's food, and they'll just hang out there, and it's extremely common.
50:30 Mike Carruthers? What about the seeming rivalry between dogs and cats? Yeah, people, you know, some people think they're just natural enemies. I'm pretty sure that's not true. But, but there is this animosity, it seems, between them. What is that?
50:46 Speaker 02 Well, in more wild settings, or in, certainly in feral cats, cats that have, you know, live outside all the time that are unowned, dogs are a real threat, because dogs are predatory animals, and they are much bigger. And if a dog and a cat get into a fight,
51:05 Speaker 02 many times the cat will lose. Sometimes it can fight the dog off. But dogs can be a real threat in nature. And so it's understandable in a way that there is this instinct of cats to, to be wary of dogs. And some dogs, some more aggressive dogs, can be very, very aggressive towards cats. So there is that. On the other hand, in many households, dogs and cats get along very well. And often, a trick to that is when they're introduced, when they're young. And so it's quite common that people can have dogs and cats and they do quite fine together. One interesting thing is that dogs and cats are able to understand each other's signals.
51:47 Speaker 02 That, like many animals, dogs and cats communicate with body postures and so on. But they sometimes have signals that differ between species. The most obvious one is what they do with their tail. That a dog whose tail is moving back and forth, wagging its tail, that's a friendly gesture. A cat that's wiggling its tail back and forth, that's a gesture. I'm nervous, I'm upset, something not good is happening here. And nonetheless, the dogs and cats are able to figure out what each other mean. Another example is that a common behavior, a friendly behavior of cats is to touch noses. Anyone who's had multiple cats in their house has seen that. Dogs don't do that.
52:31 Speaker 02 But when dogs and cats live together, sometimes the dog will figure it out and will engage in nose touching with cats as a friendly gesture. So the bottom line is, there are reasons why sometimes dogs and cats don't get along, but oftentimes they can live together amicably.
52:45 Mike Carruthers? Well, you certainly know your cats. I appreciate you sharing all this information. It's fascinating. I've been speaking with Jonathan Lossis. He is an evolutionary biologist at Washington University and author of the book, "The Cat's Meow: How Cats Evolved From the Savannah to Your Sofa." And there's a link to that book in the show notes. And that's it, Jonathan. Appreciate you being here.
53:08 Speaker 02 Well, you're very welcome. It's been a pleasure talking with you.
53:14 Mike Carruthers? You probably have some valuables in your home that you would like to keep safe from burglars should they break in and start looking for stuff. If you stash your valuables in a closet, a dresser drawer, or a freezer, you're actually making a burglar's job a lot easier because that's exactly where they'll look. According to Michelle Boykins of the National Crime Prevention Council, the best place to hide stuff is in the laundry area because most crooks forget to look there. And burglars are also less likely to spend a lot of time checking hard-to-get-to places that are above eye level. In other words, if it's inconvenient for you to get to, it's inconvenient for them
53:57 Mike Carruthers? to get to and probably a really good place to stash your valuables. And that is something you should know. It would be a big help if you would leave a rating or review at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Just takes a second and it means a lot to us. I'm Mike Heruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.
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