Pod Insights Something You Should Know Effective Strategies to Be More Persuasive &The Surprising Power of Being Nice About this episode The next time you or your kids get a shot at the doctor’s office or face anything that you know is going to be painful, there is a little trick you can use that should reduce the pain substantially. Listen as I explain what it is. https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn27514-hold-your-breath-to-dampen-the-pain-of-an-injection/#. VVTKyZO_Heb
What is it about persuasive people? They just have that “something” that makes us want to listen, to be around them, and in many cases, do what they ask. Why are some people more persuasive than others? What strategies can we all use to be more influential and persuasive. Here to offer some great insight into the workings of persuasion is Abbie Maroño. She is a scientist and a practitioner in the field of human behavior and is recognized by the US Department of State as being in the top 1% of behavior analysis experts. She has delivered specialized behavioral analysis training to the U. S. Secret Service, FBI, Department of Homeland Security, and local law enforcement agencies. She is author of the book The Upper Hand: Mastering Persuasion and Getting What You Want with the Science of Social Engineering (https://amzn.to/4jwGF59)
What feels good and is good for you? Simply being kind - altruism. The research is clear that acts of kindness not only benefit the receiver of the kindness, they benefit the giver in many surprising ways. Joining me to reveal just how good it is to be kind is Nicole Karlis. She is a health and science journalist whose work has been published in Salon, The New York Times, and Marie Claire and she is author of the book, Your Brain on Altruism: The Power of Connection and Community during Times of Crisis (https://amzn.to/4kv1iAb).
As men age and get their “dad-bod” women tend to be forgiving. When women get heavier as they age, men are less forgiving. Why the double standard? Listen as I explain one theory as to why this is so. https://www.womenshealthmag.com/life/a19921539/why-women-accept-dad-bods/
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:28 Mike Carruthers? Today on Something You Should Know, an easy way to make pain less painful. Then, how you can become a more persuasive person.
1:39 Speaker 01 To be persuasive, you need to understand how people think in order to get them to think in the way you want them to. Because that's really what persuasion is. I have something I want you to do or something I want you to think, so I need to try and align your thinking to that.
1:54 Mike Carruthers? Also, an interesting difference between men and women when it comes to physical attractiveness. And how being kind to others can be good for your health, and it doesn't take much.
2:06 Speaker 02 It doesn't have to be these really big and grand gestures. Scientists have found that even small acts of kindness can benefit your health. Specifically, the kind of sweet spot is three acts of kindness, two days a week.
2:22 Mike Carruthers? All this today on Something You Should Know.
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4:23 Mike Carruthers? If you don't like needles when you go to the doctor, I have something for you to remember or tell your kids to remember the next time that happens. Hi and welcome to Something You Should Know. Millions of people hate getting shots when they go to the doctor. But did you know this? If you hold your breath, the pain won't be as bad. Spanish scientists found that a sharp intake of breath triggers your brain to dampen the nervous system, leaving you less sensitive to pain. What they did was they squished the fingernails of volunteers for five seconds.
5:02 Mike Carruthers? While this was going on, some of the volunteers took slow breaths and other volunteers held their breath. And those who held their breath reported the pain as much less severe, by about half. This technique only works when you know the pain is coming and you start to hold your breath beforehand, which is why it's perfect for when you get a shot at the doctor. And that is something you should know. Being persuasive and influential. That's a skill I suspect almost everyone wishes they were better at. So what are the building blocks to being persuasive?
5:46 Mike Carruthers? What do you have to do to get people to allow you to persuade them, to get them to do what you want or think what you want them to think? That is what Dr. Abby Morono is here to discuss. Abby is a scientist and practitioner in the field of human behavior, and she is recognized by the U.S. Department of State as being in the top 1% of behavior analysis experts. And she is author of a book called The Upper Hand: Mastering Persuasion and Getting What You Want with the Science of Social Engineering. Hey Abby, welcome to Something You Should Know.
6:21 Speaker 01 Thank you for having me.
6:24 Mike Carruthers? So as I'm thinking about this, I'm thinking, you know, I know people who I consider pretty persuasive. And I think in general, we admire people who are persuasive. I'm not sure why that is, but there's something admirable or charming or something, there's something about a persuasive person. What is that?
6:44 Speaker 01 Well, I think charm is the way that we tend to verbalize it, but it's hard to know why we are drawn to those kinds of people. But it's the underpinning psychology. They understand how to make us feel comfortable. They understand how to make us feel seen and validated. And we're drawn to people that have that ability to create that rapport and positive feeling that feels authentic. It's that, I don't know why I want to be around this person, but I do.
7:18 Mike Carruthers? And is it your sense that that is something people do naturally? Or is it an art they have learned?
7:26 Speaker 01 I think it's a bit of both. I think some people are naturally really talented at recognizing what other people need and how to make them feel validated and just do it naturally. But even with a natural ability, if you have an understanding of human psychology, you can be a lot more effective. And some people who are not naturally very charismatic, they can end up being the most charismatic because now they can start to understand, okay, well, how do people think? What is it that people need? What is it that makes people feel comfortable? And they can start actively doing those things.
8:04 Mike Carruthers? And before we get into the psychology of it all, it's my sense, and I want to get your comment on this. It's my sense that we are more persuaded by some people than others because of their looks, their attractiveness, what they're wearing, how tall they are, things like that, right?
8:26 Speaker 01 Yes, and you pick up on a really important point. When I talk about influence, we all are biased because the brain is so powerful, but it's so energy hungry. It weighs 2% of our body mass, but it takes up 20% of our energy. So in order to get us through our daily interactions and not be overwhelmed all the time, it takes mental shortcuts. It needs to simplify information. And that's where biases come in. We take information in and we try and understand it as easily and quickly as possible. And that leads to missteps in thinking. For example, a very well-known bias is the halo effect. We see someone who is attractive.
9:11 Speaker 01 And we tend to assume that because we have, they are rated as having a positive characteristic in one area, like attractiveness. They have positivity in other areas that aren't necessarily related. So we know with the halo effect, we tend to rate people who are more attractive as more intelligent. Uh, or more trustworthy without actually having the same evidence that they are. Um, and there are hundreds of biases. Um, that we all fall for. And there are some people that think, oh, well, I'm, I don't have a bias. And that in itself is a bias and the bias that we don't think we have a bias is called our blind spot bias.
9:53 Mike Carruthers? I like, I like that we have a bias that we don't have any bias. Uh, that's, that's the best. And so is there a message there that if you wanna be persuasive, you need to look the part? And appeal to those biases as best you can?
10:11 Speaker 01 Yes. And this is one that I always get a little bit of backlash on. Because people say, you know, if we are dressing more formally, we are perceived as more intelligent and more professional. And then you do get that backlash of, well, you know, this is a modern times, we should be able to wear what you want. Fine, no problem. You can wear what you want, but it doesn't mean the perception has to change. There are facts about how we perceive other people that just are the way that they are. And it might not be what you want it to be. And you might feel, well, that's an offensive. Um, characteristic or that's an offensive judgment. But it doesn't mean that the judgment isn't there. And you can argue against it or you can use it to your advantage.
10:55 Speaker 01 So if you want to be perceived as more competent, the way you dress, the way you carry yourself absolutely does matter.
11:03 Mike Carruthers? Is it a case of the way you dress and how you present yourself matters based on who you're talking to? Or are there objective ways that, you know, if you wear a tie and a coat, you're going to be perceived better than if you wear a T-shirt and shorts? Or does it really depend on who you're talking to?
11:26 Speaker 01 Well, it depends on the context. So if we're talking about a professional context, then absolutely it is on average, you're perceived as more competent and more confident. And even though there is a society move towards being more casual, that perception of confidence and competence has remained the same. That people who dress more formally, and not just confident and competent, but also more intelligent, people who dress more professionally are perceived as more intelligent. And the important fact that is perceived, it doesn't necessarily mean they are, but perception really does matter. Because, for example, the perception of trustworthiness.
12:10 Speaker 01 I always say it's like a double-sided coin, where you have to be trustworthy and you have to be confident. You have to be perceived as confident too. Because say the perception is what opens the door. If someone's going to trust you, they need to perceive you as trustworthy first. And then, once you're in the room, that's where actual trustworthiness is important, to keep you in that room, otherwise you'll just get kicked out. But you have to have both parts. The door has to be open and you have to be able to stay in. So just being trustworthy or just being competent. If you don't know how to present yourself with the right perception, then you're doing yourself a disservice.
12:52 Mike Carruthers? I am so glad to hear you say that, what you said about this whole notion of, you know, well, things are more casual now and you don't have to...
13:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:02 Mike Carruthers? That doesn't change the way people perceive you. Just, just because you think you should be more casual doesn't change anything.
13:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:09 Mike Carruthers? I've always, I've always liked when people dressed up. I like when people put on a tie and a coat. But sometimes when I do it, I feel odd because nobody else is doing it. So then I dress down and then I, but, but I don't like that.
13:24 Speaker 01 Yes, and we can kind of feel like we're sticking out like a sore thumb. But is that necessarily a bad thing? Because if everybody else is dressing down and you're continuing to stay formal, then you're kind of giving yourself the upper hand in perception wise anyway.
13:41 Mike Carruthers? Beyond the looks and and the and how people perceive you, there is a there is an art and and I suspect a science to being persuasive and can you guide me into that?
13:55 Speaker 01 Yes, well, when you read a lot of the influence books on persuasion and influence, what I have found is they are very surface level and that they're great. But what they teach you is do X and you'll get Y. So if you're learning to be persuasive, you get, okay, do X technique. And then you'll be more persuasive. But the problem with that is it doesn't really teach you why. It doesn't let you understand why you're being more persuasive. So how can you take that approach and tailor it to different situations? So the way I thought eh the best way to present had to be persuasive is
14:41 Speaker 01 people need to understand how people think. Because to be persuasive, you need to understand how people think in order to get them to think in the way you want them to. Because that's really what persuasion is. I have a goal. Or I have something I want you to do or something you want you to want you to think. So I need to try and align your thinking to that or your behavior to that. If I don't understand the roots of how people make decisions in the first place, that pure psychology, how am I going to reach that goal effectively? And how am I going to know what barriers there are in there? So it's understanding human decision making. And like I said, I I created a framework that's the underpinnings of how human beings make decisions,
15:26 Speaker 01 which sounds really complicated, but I thought of it as like if you think of a plant, you can have thousands of different types of plants and they're so different. You have a cheese plant versus a cactus versus a lily, completely different. But if you really go to the root of it, they all need the same basic stuff, right? Soil, water, sunlight.
15:51 Speaker 01 And people are much the same because we are ninety-nine point nine percent genetically identical. So, within that, there has to be commonalities if understood can be exploited. And that's really where the art of persuasion comes in, is understanding those commonalities in how all human beings make decisions. So then you can take that and then create tactics from it.
16:16 Mike Carruthers? Well, I certainly want to find out what those commonalities are. I'm speaking with Abby Morono. She's author of the book The Upper Hand: Mastering Persuasion and Getting What You Want with the Science of Social Engineering. If you listen to Something You Should Know regularly, you know we talk about sleep quite a bit here. And one of the things I've learned from those conversations is just how important a good night's sleep is. And I've always been someone who loves his sleep. So I was intrigued when I heard about Beam Dream. It's a delicious nighttime drink formulated to help you fall asleep faster, stay asleep, and wake up refreshed.
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19:35 Mike Carruthers? So Abby, you said there are commonalities in the way people make decisions. What are they?
19:41 Speaker 01 Yes. So the first one is, we are our brains. And that simply means that all thought and behavior originates in the brain. It doesn't just drive us, it defines us. So we have to have a basic understanding of the brain. And again, that's where the cognitive biases and things come in. And then the second principle is the drive to survive. And this is the most deeply ingrained human drive there is. We seek safety and avoid threats. Meaning, if you appear as a threat to a person, it doesn't matter what approach you take because you have now encroached on their safety.
20:22 Speaker 01 So their brain is saying to them, you are the danger, and they want to escape the danger. The third principle is that we are designed to connect and cooperate. We are a social species. There is absolutely no denying through our evolutionary history. Our survival has depended on our social relationships. Meaning, we are actually wired for survival and maintaining social relationships is crucial to that. Which is why when we have positive social interactions, we get a boost of oxytocin. So if we take this understanding. In order to build trust, we need to understand, okay, well, how can I create bonding? How can I utilize this social aspect of human beings?
21:07 Speaker 01 And then principle number four is the mind-body feedback loop. We are interconnected with our thoughts, feelings and physical states. So our inner states, the emotions, feelings, thoughts. Are affected by the physical environment, like the temperature outside. If there's noise, the people around us, and then vice versa. So they affect each other. If I control one, for example, if I control the lighting. I can then control how focused someone is. Or if I change my emotion, I can change my perception of my interactions. So changing inner can change outer and vice versa. And then the final principle to understand is that we all have a unique self-identity.
21:52 Speaker 01 And that's where that point one percent comes in. So I, like I said, we're ninety-nine point nine percent genetically identical. But we are very unique. And understanding everyone's individual self-identity and the way they perceive themselves. And define themselves. We can understand what it is that matters to that person. And how to relate to them and how to validate them. And if we take these five principles individually. They're all very effective to understand the influence. But when we're creating tactics. If we understand them as a whole. And how to appeal to all of them, or how to not accidentally contradict some of them. We can be a lot more effective in our influence approach.
22:36 Mike Carruthers? So can you take those things in, in as simple way as you can and put them into practice? Give me an example of, of those things at work.
22:46 Speaker 01 So for example, one technique I call speak their language. If you understand someone, you can speak their language in a way that makes them feel understood, valued and relatable. And that doesn't mean copying their accent or slang. It means matching their communication style. What are their priorities? What are their worldviews? And when people feel receptive, or when people feel understood even, they're more receptive to your message. So let's say, for example, you're pitching an idea to someone who is very risk averse. Instead of calling your plan disruptive and bold,
23:28 Speaker 01 you describe it as tested, strategic, and designed to minimize long-term risk. Because you've understood what matters to that person. You've understood what triggers their survival drive. So let's take that principle of survival. If someone is risk averse, if they feel that there might be a risk to it, they're gonna activate that survival drive. So knowing that and then understanding their self-identity, we can adapt our message. So we change the way we communicate. We're not imitating, we're not pretending to be them. We're kind of meeting them where they are.
24:07 Speaker 01 So that is a really simple example of how we can change the way we communicate when we understand someone. And it doesn't mean that we're using manipulation or anything to coerce them. It simply means we're just being adaptable and we're being influential.
24:29 Mike Carruthers? So if you could, take another one of your five principles there and put it in action, just like you just did with that one.
24:37 Speaker 01 Yep. So loss aversion is a cognitive bias where we
24:42 Speaker 01 Think things are worth more if they belong to us. So we are more afraid of losing them. So if you're trying to get someone to provide you information, you can utilize this natural tendency to have loss aversion as framing the consequence of withholding information as something they might regret later. So I I teach this to federal agents that are trying to get cooperation. And one way um they utilize this is when they're talking about giving your side of the story. So if you're speaking to a suspect, we can utilize loss aversion of if you're not able to provide me this information.
25:25 Speaker 01 You know, I've seen so many cases where people withheld information that they thought wasn't important and it came back to haunt them. So in that, the way you're framing it, you're showing them that if you don't provide me this, you're losing something. Rather than saying, you know, please give me this information. It will help us. We're also utilizing that natural tendency to be loss averse by saying the consequences of not providing me this is you're going to lose the ability to have something or you're going to lose the control over this case.
25:58 Mike Carruthers? Do you think, though, that once you understand the five things that you outlined, that that you're fairly able to then adapt them to to your situation? Like, OK, now I get that. So now let's do it this way. Or is this something that really has to be studied? Because a lot of persuasion is done on your feet. I mean, it it you don't have time to prepare your presentation. It's it's you got to do it right now.
26:23 Speaker 01 And and that's a fantastic question. So this is where the ability to establish quick rapport comes in. We know that the best way to get information and to get someone to do what we want them to do is FaceTime, as in more time with them. If you have the ability to understand how to present yourself, you're more likely to get quick rapport. So if I know what creates oxytocin, let's go to that connect and cooperate principle. If I know what creates oxytocin and makes someone feel bonded to me, I'm going to be able to understand them quicker because they're gonna give me more information. They're gonna um think I'm more likable, they're going to be more trusting towards me.
27:07 Speaker 01 So for example, let's take a quick tactic. When we have a genuine smile, it creates oxytocin in the brain. So if we're interacting and I greet you and I don't greet you with a smile, I'm doing myself a disservice. If I greet you with a smile, I can increase a little oxytocin. And then other factors like my body orientation matters. So if I'm talking to you and my body is orientated away, but I'm facing you, research has shown that it creates a reduced perception of empathy. Whereas if I'm orientating towards you and maybe I'm also slightly mimicking your behavior, we know that it creates more oxytocin, we know that it creates more trust and more feelings of closeness.
27:51 Speaker 01 So all of these things, when you understand how people think and what makes people feel comfortable, you can utilize those tactics to create faster rapport. So you do get to know that person. Because if I want to influence you to buy something, I need to understand what your motives are. I need to understand what matters to you. And the best way to do that is to make you feel comfortable just telling me information. Just tell me a little about yourself. And if I utilize those tactics that create bonding, you're more comfortable telling me more information. Maybe I ask about a recent holiday you went on because you have a picture of a holiday. I ask about your family and you open up a little more.
28:33 Speaker 01 Small conversation about hobbies or profession or wherever I direct the tack, uh wherever I direct the conversation, I can find out things that matter to you. And then I can utilize those inside my influence approach.
28:49 Mike Carruthers? Is there also just something to the fact that you're showing interest and acting, or maybe you are interested in what they have to say about their hobbies or whatever, that that that has an effect as well?
29:02 Speaker 01 Yep, absolutely. And again, that goes into the connect and cooperate principle of we are naturally social creatures and we like to be liked. And it feels good when people are reinforcing our self concept. So say if I see myself as someone who is a logical thinker, if you say, wow, you you know, you have a lot of attention to detail. Oh, you've just reinforced my self image. That feels really good. And it creates more liking towards you. And if you're showing me interest in my life and my career, then it creates more liking towards you and more bonding. So just being able to create a conversation and showing interest in someone is in itself a tactic of creating cooperation.
29:47 Mike Carruthers? Well, as I said, I I think persuasion is one of those things that people wish they were better at and knew more about. And well, and now we do know more about it. I've been speaking with Dr. Abby Morano. She is a scientist and practitioner in the field of human behavior. And she is author of the book, The Upper Hand: Mastering Persuasion and Getting What You Want with the Science of Social Engineering. There's a link to her book in the show notes. And Abby, thank you.
30:14 Speaker 01 Amazing. Thank you so much.
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32:13 Mike Carruthers? Do you make it a point to help other people, to volunteer, or help with caregiving? Or, as it's commonly said, do you give back, or pay it forward, or whatever you want to call it? You've probably heard that helping or volunteering is good for you, that there are health benefits to it, and there are psychological and social benefits as well. And the way that all works, and how you can take advantage of it, is all very interesting. Here to discuss it is Nicole Carles. She's a health and science journalist whose work has been published in Salon, and The New York Times, and Marie Claire, and other places. And she has a book
32:53 Mike Carruthers? out called "Your Brain on Altruism: The Power of Connection and Community During Times of Crisis." Hi Nicole, welcome.
33:02 Speaker 02 Hi Mike, thank you for having me. I'm really happy to be here.
33:06 Mike Carruthers? So I think most of us have heard from the time we were very young that it's good to help other people. People in need need our help, and we should help them. That altruism is the right thing to do, because helping other people helps other people. But it's also good for the person doing the helping. And so my first question is, how is it good for the person doing the helping?
33:31 Speaker 02 So I've found there are numerous health benefits to altruism, like participating in regular volunteering. Specifically, it can help improve cognitive function and slow cognitive decline. Research also suggests it can help build immunity to protect against disease acceleration. And some research shows that people who volunteer regularly live longer, have fewer hospital visits, and are overall in better health. On a day-to-day basis, altruism can reduce stress, anxiety, and loneliness.
34:06 Mike Carruthers? And you define altruism as what?
34:09 Speaker 02 Altruism is when we act to improve someone else's well-being. I use the word altruism interchangeably with kindness, caring, and generosity. It really is a stylistic choice to do that because at the end of the day, it just boils down to an action that benefits another person's welfare, without the expectation of receiving something in return.
34:35 Mike Carruthers? The benefits to doing this, I think everybody has felt them. I mean, anytime you've done something nice for somebody, even like, you know, helping somebody who's lost, give them directions to get to wherever they're going. There's something about it that just feels right. Like, wow, that, you know, I was, I was really glad to help that person. And that feeling is, I think, kind of at the core of this whole topic, right? I mean, that desire and fulfillment of helping is a real human thing.
35:10 Speaker 02 Absolutely. I think that's for a few reasons. One, because it's a novel experience, and that really factors into these health benefits that I discovered by interviewing neuroscientists and psychologists. It's not just, you know, meeting up with friends and, sure, that feels good too, but it really, it gives you a sense of purpose. And it can really, you know, require a certain level of vulnerability in this interaction when, when you're helping someone and also when you're asking for help.
35:47 Mike Carruthers? The people who do this and who do this well and who do this just as part of their life, do they have other things in common? Are the, is there a certain type of person drawn to altruism?
36:00 Speaker 02 That's a really good question. I, I think that what can draw a person to altruism is that they've been on the other end of an altruistic exchange. So maybe, you know, in a time of their life where they've really found themselves to be in crisis and need help, people, strangers or people in their community really stepped up to help them. And, and we remember that. We remember when people are kind to us, when people have gone above and beyond to help us. And research shows that when you're on the receiving end of that act, that you really, you want to pass that on, you want to carry that on.
36:41 Speaker 02 And it can be a life-changing interaction where then you, you do want to engage in more altruism in your life.
36:48 Mike Carruthers? And generally, when I think, when people think about altruism, they think about, you know, helping at the shelter or, I mean, I don't know what they think. What, what, what do people think when you say, what kind of altruistic things do you do? What is it people tend to do?
37:08 Speaker 02 Part of what I want people to take away from the research that I found is that it doesn't have to be these really big and grand gestures. Scientists have found that even small acts of kindness can benefit your health. Specifically, the, the kind of sweet spot is three acts of kindness, two days a week. And the reason behind that is that so it doesn't really become, you know, another item you have to check off your to-do list every day, that it's something that, you know, you kind of look forward to. And once again, it's this novel experience that you're experiencing.
37:52 Speaker 02 But an act of kindness, you know, can just be buying a stranger's coffee. It can also just be being kinder to people who are in your life doing, you know, we think like we have to do it to a stranger, someone we don't know. It could just be, you know, helping a family member with grocery shopping or just showing up to their house with a tea or coffee or a treat. It doesn't have to be regular volunteering. However, the science does show that there are major health benefits to regularly volunteering, especially later in life.
38:25 Mike Carruthers? And when people, you talk to people who do it, are they doing it for the health benefits? I would think not, but I mean, that's more of a side benefit as much as it's not the reason people do it.
38:40 Speaker 02 You know, what you're, I think, kind of alluding here to here is intention. And that's actually a really important part in experiencing the health benefits that I've found of altruism. And so the intention, you know, really has to be to help the, you know, to be of service, to help the people that you want to help. At the same time, there's nothing wrong with going into an act of altruism and knowing there are health benefits to this and I'm going to feel really great after this. And maybe there is a part of me that is doing this because I know that people who volunteer regularly have fewer hospital visits or have maybe less disease.
39:22 Speaker 02 So I know that there's nothing wrong with going into an act of altruism, knowing that you'll benefit from it as well. But I do think that people really want to be of service to others. It's really, you know, neuroscientists tell me it's not a nice to have, it's not something that's fluffy for good brain health. It's actually a must have for good brain health.
39:45 Mike Carruthers? So what is the mechanism? What is it that makes it so if I go buy somebody a cup of coffee or I help, help an old lady across the street, how does that help my health? What's the connection?
40:01 Speaker 02 So I think what's important to understand that is to first take a step back and look at how chronic stress affects the brain. So chronic stress kills brain cells and specifically it affects the brain's frontal networks, which are responsible for our higher order thinking, critical thinking, problem solving and creativity, you know, what makes us special as humans. And so when chronic stress shuts this down, we are forced into a fight or flight mode and the sympathetic nervous system is activated. So neuroscientists believe that what is called an open posture, something that can, you know, make you feel more open,
40:46 Speaker 02 this can bring the brain, the front part of the brain back online. And curiosity is one way to do that. And curiosity can do that through an act of kindness. So even though an act of kindness, when you're in that fight or flight mode can feel hard to access, it can actually bring the brain, the frontal cortex back online and activate that parasympathetic nervous system, which is when we feel safe and cared for and more relaxed.
41:19 Mike Carruthers? But I'm still not clear, I'm still not understanding the magic that happens here of you're healthier, you're less likely to go to the hospital because you helped somebody.
41:35 Speaker 02 There's also another part of the brain that neuroscientists have seen that's activated during an act of kindness, during an act of altruism, and that's the ventral striatum. And we know that that's responsible for, you know, feeling the happy hormone, which is dopamine. But scientists have found that it's not the same thing that happens in the brain when you go and eat really good food or do something that's more of a self-focused activity, that that part of the brain can actually be lit up for a longer time. So the researchers suspect that actually altruism can create a more durable and more sustainable
42:19 Speaker 02 lasting sort of feel good. And this, you know, we kind of in society refer to this as the helper's high.
42:26 Mike Carruthers? Yeah, well, I think everyone has probably heard of the helper's high and probably felt that helper's high of doing something nice for someone and it just, you know, it feels like a high. It feels good. You really helped and it lasts a while. It doesn't last a long while, it seems, but it does last for a while and then it goes away, I guess, until the next time you do something.
42:50 Speaker 02 And something that I think is important to talk about, too, is that that feel-good feeling that we're talking about is really important, but that's not necessarily what I think we are chasing when we engage in acts of service. I think what we're actually looking for is a way to build resilience mentally, emotionally, and physically. Because at the end of the day, we're always going to be facing a crisis. We're not going, you know, there's nothing we can do to make us happy permanently, long-term. It's not a sustainable feeling. But I think that what I ultimately found in my research is that altruism
43:34 Speaker 02 can be a catalyst to building resilience. So, I mean, even though we just talked about like the helper's high, and even though that fades, what we do know is that there are health benefits to helping others and it can help us build resilience individually and as a society.
43:53 Mike Carruthers? There are people who will say that the reason they don't volunteer, they don't want to go down to the animal shelter or the homeless shelter and help because it makes them sad. It's hard to watch. And other people I've heard say, well, you know, I mean, so what if you go down and you serve a meal to the homeless? It doesn't address the problem. Yeah, it's nice to give them a meal, but they'll need another meal after you've gone home and you really haven't helped the problem, to which you would say...
44:27 Speaker 02 Well, I would say that then maybe that's not the right volunteer opportunity for the for those people. The whole point is to do something that makes you feel good, that does give you that sense of purpose, that will, you know, give you the benefits that I talk about. For some people, maybe that's just not the right opportunity. Throughout my research, I've found that basically volunteering depends on what season of life you're in. So you can either be in a season of giving, receiving, or witnessing. And maybe for those people, they're not in a place in their life where they can give.
45:04 Mike Carruthers? What about giving money? Does that count? Does that have the same benefits as volunteering? Or is that something entirely different?
45:14 Speaker 02 That's a good question. So, research suggests that giving money doesn't have the same effects, the same health effects. But I always say that that doesn't mean if that's the only thing you can give in the moment, and that's what you want to do, then, you know, why not? And specifically, I'm thinking about a situation where people are on Instagram, and a big wildfire happened, and someone's sharing a GoFundMe for their friend or family. And, you know, in that moment, that's something that you can do to help, and you will feel better. You'll feel less, you know, like the world is in crisis, and more like you
45:58 Speaker 02 were able to do something and to help people in this situation.
46:04 Mike Carruthers? I know people, and I actually remember being in this situation once, when I was younger, of wanting to volunteer, and not really knowing, like, where to go, or who to call, or where to show. Like, I was willing, but I didn't know what to do.
46:22 Speaker 02 You know, it's actually really difficult to volunteer, to volunteer your free time regularly. People work, people are parents, people have family members to take care of. People, you know, are burned out and want to go home and relax. They don't necessarily want to go and volunteer again. So- What I'd like to see is I call for what I describe as a culture of caring, where as a society, we prioritize the act of caring for others, where we see caring for others as a strength and not a weakness. And what that can look like is in the workforce,
47:05 Speaker 02 people actually giving workers time to go and volunteer if they want to. Like I was saying before about caregivers, caregiving and isolation, more providing more societal support for caregivers. So if they do want to volunteer as well in their communities, they have the time and space to do that.
47:31 Mike Carruthers? So where do you begin? Like if you haven't done this before, if you haven't really thought much about this, like what's the prescription here to get your toe in the water?
47:39 Speaker 02 Well, it depends, you know, where you're at in your life. If you really feel like you are in a season of giving and you have the space to regularly volunteer, I think that the first place to start is just thinking about what your interests are and what you're really passionate about. And then thinking, you know, what works for you logistically? You know, if you know you're really into marine mammals and you want to help the elephant seals, but you live an hour and a half from the rescue center, are you realistically going to be able to, you know, travel an hour and a half twice a week or whatever it is? So I think just being really realistic with yourself as well.
48:24 Speaker 02 And I think also, you know, once you start just remembering, like it doesn't have to be perfect. It can take some time, honestly, to maybe enjoy it. And part of, you know, the health benefits, it's not just from giving to others, but it's about connecting with people in your community too. So really connecting with the other volunteers. So I would encourage people to be social as well and to be open to making new connections with, you know, people who are also volunteering as well.
48:54 Mike Carruthers? And I would imagine it's easier if you do it with someone. You know, it can be a little intimidating to go by yourself someplace you've never been to volunteer and not really know the lay of the land. But doing it with somebody else probably makes it easier.
49:10 Speaker 02 Yeah, I always say that if you wanna catch up with a friend, you know, it's really easy to go grab a coffee and go on a walk together. But if you really want like some peak, you know, optimal um health benefits and something that would be like really memorable for the both of you, it would be going to go volunteer together. And I've personally, I have done this with friends and like it's it's such a fun thing to do with a friend or family member.
49:38 Mike Carruthers? Is there any research, anything that you looked into about like when you volunteer? Do people tend to, and is it a good idea to volunteer at the same place frequently? Or hop around and you know, this week we're gonna do this and now we're gonna go over here and do that. And you know, maybe we'll go back to that other one. But you know, it's more of a variety rather than just staying with one organization or one plan of attack and doing that.
50:06 Speaker 02 I personally think that you'll experience the benefits um more if you stick to something regularly because you will be connecting with other volunteers. You will be creating friendships and you will be really, you'll be able to see your impact more over a longer period of time than than just one day.
50:29 Mike Carruthers? And you know, people have a tendency to help maybe more at Christmas or you know that there's seasons for this where you know, there's plenty of, there's plenty of volunteers at the shelter on Thanksgiving and you know, it's it's in June that they need help.
50:45 Speaker 02 Right. I do think that people frequently during Christmas, oh, I wanna do something to give back. And then oftentimes what people find is a lot of, you know, these these volunteer opportunities, they're booked, these these organizations don't need more volunteers. So that's, you know, another reason why, you know, to maybe try to do this if if you can, if you're in a season of giving, um to do this, like you said, in June and spring. So then, you know, when Christmas time does come along, you you know how to volunteer with this organization and you're connected to them already.
51:22 Mike Carruthers? And what about, what about, um, cause this happened to my son, like, you know, he, he wanted to volunteer and he went, he went down to this place and what they had him do wasn't what he thought he was gonna do. You know, they basically had him stacking boxes in the back that, you know, really wasn't connecting with the people in need. I mean, as a job that had to be done and he was willing to do it, but he didn't get the fulfillment out of it that he thought he would because he was in the back stacking boxes and it didn't really feel like he was really helping anybody.
51:55 Speaker 02 You know, I think what your son experienced can happen actually pretty frequently. People can maybe be disappointed by their experiences, but I think what the issue is that it's, it's hard to volunteer in our culture and in our, in our society. And I think we need to make it more accessible and, and easier for people to do regularly and when they want to.
52:19 Mike Carruthers? Well, I'm really glad you brought up the point that helping out, that volunteering isn't always easy. You know, you have to find the time in your schedule. Then you have to find a place, an organization, someone that can use you and that offers you something that you can do that you will find fulfilling and, and then you have to approach that organization. I mean, there, there is a lot to it and yet the rewards are pretty spectacular. I've been talking with Nicole Carles. She's a health and science journalist and author of the book, Your Brain on Altruism: The Power of Connection and Community During Times of Crisis. There's a link to her book in the show notes and I appreciate you coming on and talking about this. Thanks, Nicole.
53:02 Speaker 02 Good. Thank you, Mike.
53:08 Mike Carruthers? As men age and their midsection gets bigger, women are typically forgiving. However, when women get heavier as they age, men are less forgiving. Why? Well, when women see a man with a dad bod, they think he's a family man. He's a nurturer. He's putting his family before himself. But when men see women with a mom bod, they think, eh, she's lazy. She still hasn't lost the baby weight. This is according to Jennifer Walken, a psychologist at the Joan H. Tisch Center for Women's Health. The dad bod becomes a symbol of attractiveness to women, suggesting that he could be a good husband and father.
53:51 Mike Carruthers? He has pursuits outside the gym and he's not going to stand you up for dinner because he has to get in a workout. Meanwhile, to men, physical attractiveness to their significant other is just a bigger deal, she says. After all, back in our cavemen days, it was the best predictor of women's health and how good a partner she would be. But there's a bit more to it than that, says Jennifer Walken. Women judge themselves more harshly than most men ever will. For instance, when you ask women about their ideal body size, it tends to be thinner than what men prefer. What women might see as overweight or heavy, men often see as normal or healthy and likely attractive.
54:36 Mike Carruthers? And that is something you should know. We are at the conclusion of this episode. A good time for you to take a moment and use that share function on your, on your podcast app thing, and send this episode to someone you know and suggest they give a listen. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.
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