Pod Insights Something You Should Know Deadly Risks You Overlook & Why We Treat Pets Like People About this episode What really happens when you stand or sit up straight? More than you think. Posture affects your body and your mind in surprising ways. This episode begins with the science-backed benefits of tuning in to your posture. Source: https://www.medicaldaily.com/pulse/why-you-should-stand-straight-benefits-good-posture-345598
What’s most likely to kill you—and what can you actually do about it? That’s the urgent and practical question we explore with Dr. Tom Frieden, former Director of the CDC under President Obama and now CEO of Resolve to Save Lives. Dr. Frieden shares the latest science on the biggest threats to your health and longevity, and the powerful steps you can take to dramatically improve your odds. He’s also the author of The Formula for Better Health: How to Save Millions of Lives—Including Your Own (https://amzn.to/4gqvMSN).
Why do we treat pets, stuffed animals, and even our cars as if they were human? Anthropomorphism—projecting human qualities onto non-human things—happens across every culture on earth. But why do we do it? Is there an upside? Can it cause harm? My guest Justin Gregg, senior research associate with the Dolphin Communication Project and adjunct professor at St. Francis Xavier University, unpacks the fascinating psychology behind this universal human trait. He’s also the author of Humanish: What Talking to Your Cat or Naming Your Car Reveals About the Uniquely Human Need to Humanize (https://amzn.to/4miASSg).
And finally—why are we so easy to scam? Almost everyone has been tricked or swindled at some point - even the smartest among us has fallen for a clever con. We’ll look at why that is, and what it reveals about the way our minds work. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/cutting-edge-leadership/201109/the-5-reasons-we-get-suckered-and-ripped-off
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:23 Mike Carruthers? Just go to indeed.com/podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need the right hire fast? Then this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Today on Something You Should Know, the amazing benefits of simply standing up straight, and the most recent science on what's likely to kill you and how to prevent it.
1:55 Speaker 01 Physical activity reduces your risk of cancer. Not only reduces the risk that you'll get cancer, if you're physically active and you have cancer, you're likely to live longer, be less likely to have a recurrence of your cancer, and be less likely to get a Second cancer.
2:11 Mike Carruthers? Also, why it's almost certain you'll get scammed at some point. And anthropomorphism. The tendency we have to humanize our pets, stuffed animals, and other inanimate objects.
2:24 Speaker 02 I have a friend who has a guitar, and he's a jazz musician, and he's named his guitar Chantel. So it's entirely possible that when we anthropomorphize the tools and the objects in our lives, they last longer and they work better, and that actually made us a more successful species.
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4:09 Speaker 03 Something You Should Know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today. Something You Should Know. With Mike Carruthers.
4:22 Mike Carruthers? Um, do me a favor and just take note of your posture. You don't have to do anything, just take note of your posture. Hi and welcome to Something You Should Know. I'm Mike Carruthers and we're going to start today talking about your posture. As you know, as you've probably heard all your life, standing up straight is a good thing. It makes you feel better, not only physically, but also mentally and emotionally. And if you doubt any of that, notice your posture right now, then try standing up straight. It's guaranteed to boost your mood and make you feel more confident. Research has shown that good posture is linked to increased confidence, better memory,
5:04 Mike Carruthers? more energy, and a myriad of physical benefits. One study found that baby's learning ability was affected by their posture and that having a straight spine could make it easier for them to learn new things. Another study found that better posture was associated with more energy and a better sex life. Slouching, on the other hand, can put pressure on your spine, your organs, and your muscles, and drain away all your energy. Now, it's easy to forget about your posture while you're working, but simply trying to stay conscious of it and moving around frequently, especially when you're spending long hours in front of a computer or other device, can make a big difference.
5:49 Mike Carruthers? And again, if you doubt any of that, stand up straight right now and notice the difference. And that is something you should know.
6:02 Mike Carruthers? We all want to live longer, healthier lives. And most of us know the basics. Eat well, exercise, get enough sleep. But here's the truth. Those general ideas only get you so far. What really matters are the specific choices you make every day that science shows can prevent the diseases most likely to shorten your life. That's what we're diving into today with Dr. Tom Frieden. Dr. Frieden is the former director of the Center for Disease Control, the CDC, under President Obama, and is now the CEO of Resolve to Save Lives. He's also author of a book called "The Formula for Better Health: How to Save Millions of Lives, Including Your Own."
6:46 Mike Carruthers? Hey, doctor, welcome to Something You Should Know.
6:49 Speaker 01 Great to speak with you.
6:51 Mike Carruthers? So before we get into the details, I mean, you have kind of a big, broad, sweeping message that you want people to hear. So, so please, explain.
7:00 Speaker 01 There's an approach, a formula, actually, that is proven to have saved millions of lives. It can save millions more lives, and it's very relevant for personal health issues.
7:13 Mike Carruthers? And so when I hear that, I think, well, he's just gonna say, eat right, exercise, get enough sleep, and, and there you go. Is that it?
7:24 Speaker 01 Not quite. Those are some of the things, and just because it's familiar doesn't mean it isn't important. What I'm gonna give you is the plain truth about what really makes a difference to live a long, healthy life, and for a bonus, what are the ways that are proven to reduce the risk of dementia. And I differentiate what's really proven from what's maybe, from what's, I don't know, it's possible. You don't hear that a lot in the media and social media.
7:54 Mike Carruthers? So first, I want to know, what's likely to kill me?
7:57 Speaker 01 The thing that is most likely to kill you that you probably don't think about enough is your blood pressure. Blood pressure is the world's leading cause of death. High blood pressure, known as hypertension, kills around the world, about 11 million people a year. It causes most of the heart attacks and strokes in the world. And most of those heart attacks and strokes are preventable with medicines and simple changes in our diet that we have today. That's a lot of people that are being killed by high blood pressure. Absolutely. And one of the things that the organization that I founded, Resolve to Save Lives, does
8:36 Speaker 01 is work with communities and governments in more than 40 countries to scale up treatment for high blood pressure. And I want to say this at the beginning, Mike. I don't take any money from pharma. My organization doesn't take any money from pharma. Never have, never will. All of these medications are generic and low cost. But this idea that we have to either prevent or treat is really mistaken. We can walk and chew gum at the same time. We can prevent conditions like high blood pressure, and I'll give you a simple life hack to doing that. We can also treat them if we got them, because that makes a really big difference. All right. What's that life hack?
9:18 Speaker 01 That life hack is to switch the brand of salt you use in cooking and at the table to a low sodium salt that's potassium enriched, has anywhere from 15 to 50% potassium in it. This is the right thing for everyone to do, unless you have kidney disease. If you have kidney disease, you have to talk with your doctor first, because you can get too much potassium. But most of us consume way too little potassium and way too much sodium. And the best predictor of whether your heart will keep you healthy and vibrant for a long time is if you consume more potassium than sodium.
9:59 Speaker 01 Right now, most people consume at least three times more sodium than potassium, two or three times more. So the simple thing you can do, whether you get onto Amazon or buy it in your local supermarket, is to buy a low-sodium salt that has roughly 25% potassium, replacing the sodium or more. And that simple measure has been proven in a really rigorous study to reduce people's risk of a heart attack, a stroke, or dying from a heart attack or stroke by 10 to 15%.
10:30 Mike Carruthers? Yeah, I remember hearing this some time ago, that people think that too much salt, too much sodium is bad for you, but that that's really only half the story. It's not just too much salt, it's the ratio of salt to potassium. And if you increase your potassium, then you decrease your risk from having too much sodium.
10:53 Speaker 01 Yes, potassium does a lot of good things. It's a nutrient. We should be getting three grams, three and a half grams a day. Most of us get only about a gram and a half a day, maybe two grams a day. And the more potassium you consume, the healthier your heart. And actually, you end up reducing your sodium if you eat more potassium, even if you're consuming the same level of sodium. But we think people should have less salt, and what salt they do have should be potassium-enriched. One of the reasons it's been so hard to reduce sodium is that it's just omnipresent in our environment. You go out, buy packaged food, eat something at a restaurant, it's just loaded with sodium.
11:37 Speaker 01 So it's really difficult for individuals to make a difference. But there are foods that are high in potassium: sweet potatoes, salmon, spinach, white beans, avocados, bananas, yogurt, pistachios, tomatoes, mushrooms. The interesting thing about all of those foods is that, basically, the more you eat of them, within reason, the healthier you're going to be. You don't have to deny yourself delicious foods you love. You're better off eating more of delicious foods that are healthy, that you also love.
12:10 Mike Carruthers? So I've, and I think everyone has heard, that heart disease is the number-one killer. But what else is going to kill me if the heart disease, if I dodge the heart disease bullet? What's waiting around the corner?
12:22 Speaker 01 Well, heart disease and stroke go together. These are two conditions that we refer to as cardiovascular disease. And both of them are deadly, and both of them are huge problems. The next leading killer is cancer. And there are a lot of things that we can do to reduce cancer risk. Some of them, I think, everybody knows about. For example, reducing or avoiding tobacco use. Sometimes we forget about tobacco. It's so obvious. It's such a big cause of death. It still kills close to a half a million Americans every year. It's still our leading preventable cause of death. So if you smoke, there is nothing that will improve your health as much as quitting.
13:07 Speaker 01 And there are ways that are proven to increase the likelihood that you'll succeed if you try to quit. Medications can double your odds of success quitting. There are lots of other tips that really do work to help people quit smoking cigarettes. So really important to avoid tobacco. But there are other things that make a difference with cancer risk as well, including alcohol. Alcohol increases the risk for certain cancers. You may have heard that one drink makes you healthier, but more than that is not good. That's actually not the case. When you look at the data accurately, the risk of alcohol consumption is linear. There's no safe level of drinking, and the more you drink, the worse it is for you.
13:50 Speaker 01 That doesn't mean you shouldn't never take a drink. It's a risk benefit calculation, even if a very informal one. But let's be clear about the facts. The facts are that alcohol increases the risk of cancer. There's something else that's really fascinating that I bet people haven't heard of much unless you saw a recent news coverage of it, but it's really interesting. Physical activity. Physical activity reduces your risk of cancer. Not just cancer, lots of other things, but stick with cancer for a minute because you asked about the other things that are going to kill you. Physical activity not only reduces the risk that you'll get cancer, but a recent really
14:29 Speaker 01 well-done study showed that if you're physically active and you have cancer, you're likely to live longer, be less likely to have a recurrence of your cancer, and be less likely to get a second cancer. Now, I don't want to blame people if they feel, "Oh, I haven't been active, it's my fault." That's not the case. The point is, though, there are some things that are within your power, and it doesn't have to be going to the gym. Not a lot of people are going to go to the gym regularly. It doesn't have to be running a marathon or doing something vigorous. It can be as simple as four 30-minute walks per week, ideally out of doors. And really, physical activity is the closest thing we've got to a wonder drug.
15:11 Speaker 01 It reduces depression, cancer, heart disease, stroke, dementia, arthritis. It improves sleep and memory and independent living and mood. So I really encourage people, again, as with finding foods you love, find things that are physically active that you love to do. It might be walking the dog, or taking a brisk walk with friends, or playing sports you enjoy, or dancing. But physical activity really is very, very important.
15:43 Mike Carruthers? We're talking about proven ways to help you live longer and live healthier. My guest is Dr. Tom Frieden. He is the former director of the Center for Disease Control and author of the book, "The Formula for Better Health."
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16:51 Mike Carruthers? So Tom, what about body weight?
16:55 Speaker 01 The obesity epidemic is real, it's problematic, and I'm going to take kind of an exception to what many people say. I don't think we really understand what's driving it. There are a lot of things that have changed in our environment. I can tell you with certainty what is not driving it. What is not driving it is that people have gotten lazier and with less willpower, because it's happening all over the world. It's happening to all different groups, and it's dramatically different from what it was a couple of generations ago. So we haven't changed, our environments have changed. One of the things that I know
17:36 Speaker 01 people can do to reduce their risk is to cut down or cut out added sugars, especially sugary drinks. Sugary drinks are the single leading driver of increased calorie consumption in the United States, and they're empty calories. They have no nutritional value. So I'm not saying it's the only cause, but it's something that we really can do something about. The other thing to know about body weight is even if you don't lose an ounce of weight, if you're physically active, you're going to be much healthier.
18:12 Mike Carruthers? What else do you find that people struggle with, or that, or maybe don't even know that's part of your plan that really people need to know?
18:23 Speaker 01 Well, I think we can't underestimate the importance of sleep. Sleep, when you sleep, basically, your mind cleans out a lot of the toxins in your brain. You're less likely to have high blood pressure. Your mood gets better, your productivity gets better. Now, it's hard to get enough sleep for a lot of people. But there are some things that are proven to make a difference, like being in a cool and dark room. There are some things that probably make a difference, like avoiding caffeine, alcohol, or screens for an hour or so before going to bed, having a regular sleep schedule. I know that this is things that people have heard of, but it is important to understand
19:08 Speaker 01 that it's really important. It's not just about, "Oh, I need to get enough sleep." It's about thriving. That if you can get, on most nights, a full night's sleep, that's at least seven hours, seven to nine hours' sleep, you're much more likely to thrive, to do the things that you love doing, to enjoy doing the things that you're doing.
19:30 Mike Carruthers? What about gut health? Is this a thing that people need to concern themselves with, or it pretty much takes care of itself if you do everything else and eat right and all that?
19:41 Speaker 01 There are things that you can do, and here, again, I distinguish between proven, likely, possible. But there are some things that you can do beyond the low sodium diet and reducing added sugars. You can replace unhealthy with healthy fats. That means olive oil and nuts, fish and soy. You can avoid processed meats, finding healthy foods you enjoy, especially plant-based meats. You can avoid those sugary beverages. And also, you can increase fiber consumption, because that's important for gut health.
20:22 Mike Carruthers? And doing that does what? What's the benefit other than, you know, your guts in better shape? But what does that mean? What does that do for you?
20:30 Speaker 01 So all of those things that I just mentioned actually increase the likelihood that you're going to live longer. It's not just about feeling better. It's about feeling better for longer. And many of those things have some proof to reduce the risk of dementia. I talk a lot about the risk of dementia because as a doctor and as a child of a grandmother who died with dementia, I really think this is a terrible way to go. It undermines our humanity in some very basic ways. Now, I understand there's a movement to accept dementia, but I never want anyone being treated unfairly.
21:14 Speaker 01 At the same time, I think it is a fate we'd all like to avoid. And there's some things that are proven that can actually reduce it, that you may not realize are really important. Things like fully protecting and correcting your vision and hearing. It's not just not having people shout, that it's important to wear your hearing aids if you have them, but actually it reduces the risk that you'll have dementia later on. And fully protecting vision, this is really important. There are other things like getting enough sleep, getting recommended vaccines that may reduce dementia, avoiding brain injury, of course, and treating depression. And interestingly, either speaking a second language in conversation or playing a musical
21:59 Speaker 01 instrument regularly may increase cognitive reserve, and there's pretty good evidence they reduce the risk of dementia.
22:07 Mike Carruthers? What's the connection, or maybe no one knows, of hearing better and dementia? What could possibly be the connection?
22:17 Speaker 01 Well, again, I like to stick with the facts. The facts are that it is absolutely the case that regular and full correction of hearing reduces the risk of dementia. That is a fact. Now, why is a theory? The theory is that it's less sensory deprivation, it's less disorientation about what's going on, it's less stimulation that's good for the brain. Those are all theories. They may be right, they may be wrong, but just the facts are, the facts are, regular correction, full correction of your hearing and vision to the extent possible, for as
23:00 Speaker 01 many hours as possible, reduces the risk of dementia.
23:04 Mike Carruthers? But I had heard that, and I also heard, what is, what is the vaccine? Is it the shingles vaccine?
23:11 Speaker 01 Yeah, shingles vaccine. This is interesting. I gotta tell you, this study was out in pre-print as the book was going to press, and I really waited until the full study came out. I actually communicated with the author and was able to get the final reference into the book and read the article before it came out. There have been a few studies over the last five or 10 years that have suggested that the shingles vaccine, if given to people who are 65 years or so old, reduces the risk of dementia. Now, it seems like a strange, a strange outcome, and a lot of times when there are studies
23:53 Speaker 01 like this, there is something called residual confounding, where there's actually a non-causal reason for that association. So, they, you know, it may look like, you know, one factor and another are related, but they're just coincidence because they're both related to a third factor. And, and so, I wasn't very confident that the shingles vaccine had this impact, although a series of studies have shown it, but there's a very good study that just came out that really suggests that this may well be causal. I would still say this is not certain. I'm not even sure I would say it's probable, but I would certainly say it's at least possible.
24:33 Speaker 01 What we do know is that the shingles vaccine prevents shingles, and what it may do is actually reduce your risk of dementia for reasons that we can guess about, but we don't have any proof.
24:45 Mike Carruthers? Talk about optimism, because that's something that, you know, I've heard this before, that being an optimist can help you live longer, but I don't know that I understand exactly why, other than, you know, maybe if you believe it, you make it so, but what's the connection?
25:03 Speaker 01 Optimists do live longer, and we're not entirely sure if that's because healthier people are more optimistic, but the formula for better health is see, believe, create. See the things that might kill us, see why we don't pay attention to those risks, see the pathway to progress, believe that we can change those things, and that includes through cultivating optimism. If you don't have optimism, you're not likely to take the steps you need to create a healthier future, whether that's taking medications, or improving what you eat, or how you move, or who you interact with. Optimism is a motivating force.
25:47 Speaker 01 Optimism is a way of driving toward progress, and in the programs that I've been associated with in the US and around the world, optimism is often the driving force, the single most important force. If we're going to think of, can we really live a long, healthy life, less likely to get dementia, we have to have some optimism that it could actually happen.
26:12 Mike Carruthers? Well, this is great. Some of the stuff you've said I've heard before, but I think you explain it better, and many of the things you said I hadn't heard before, or at least not explained that way, and I think it's really helpful to hear. Dr. Tom Frieden has been my guest. He's the former director of the Center for Disease Control under President Obama. He is now the CEO of an organization called Resolve to Save Lives, and he has a book out called The Formula for Better Health: How to Save Millions of Lives, Including Your Own. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Doctor, thank you for being here. It was a pleasure having you on.
26:49 Speaker 01 Thank you.
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27:49 Mike Carruthers? We all know that our pets are not people, that our cars don't have feelings, and that our stuffed animals can't really hear us. But that doesn't stop us from talking to them, naming them, and even celebrating them. This universal quirk, called anthropomorphism, is something humans do everywhere, across every culture. But why? What does it reveal about our minds? And could there actually be benefits to it? That's what we're about to discuss with Justin Gregg, who has spent his career studying animal behavior and cognition. And he's here to discuss why it is we humanize the non-human. He's author of a book called "Humanish:
28:31 Mike Carruthers? What Talking to Your Cat or Naming Your Car Reveals About the Uniquely Human Need to Humanize." Hi, Justin, welcome to Something You Should Know.
28:40 Speaker 02 Hi, Mike, it's great to be here.
28:42 Mike Carruthers? So I know that I certainly have done this and do this. And I watch my kids growing up, and they talk to their stuffed animals and things. I mean, I see it around me, but I was surprised to hear that it's everywhere, right? I mean, it really is universal.
29:00 Speaker 02 Yeah, it seems to be a universal human trait. We anthropomorphize pretty much anything and everything, as long as it has a little bit of humanish quality to it, you know, eyes, for example. It's really easy for us to slip into treating it like it's a fellow human.
29:16 Mike Carruthers? I wish it had a better word because it's so hard to pronounce.
29:20 Speaker 02 I had to read the audiobook and I have to kept, I had to keep saying anthropomorphism and every third time I mispronounced the word that is the subject of the book. I hear you.
29:31 Mike Carruthers? So even though it's universal, is it equally universal or do some cultures do it more than others or what?
29:39 Speaker 02 There are some cultures that anthropomorphize things more easily. Japan quite famously, if you think of like Japanese cute culture, they have a lot of cute adorable robots and things. They have a much easier time getting into anthropomorphism than other countries, but it is quite prevalent in North America as well. Yeah, but it is different per country and per person. Not everyone does it as easily.
30:03 Mike Carruthers? When you think about it, you know, you get a teddy bear and you start talking to him when you're very young and then you watch cartoons and you see animals talking on television and, and, or in the movies and so you kind of, it's been normalized. So why wouldn't you?
30:22 Speaker 02 Exactly. I mean, that's a great example. Everybody's familiar with as a kid, you anthropomorphize everything. That's what play is. You know, you pretend that your puppets and your dolls can talk and you know, all of the cartoons are anthropomorphic animals. But then as you get older, you do it less often, but the capacity to do it is still there, especially in the context of play. And if you think about it, when you anthropomorphize your dog, like you, a lot of people put on the voices of their dog, they'll pretend to be their dog talking back to them. And most people don't really believe that their animals think or are capable of saying all the things that we pretend that they're saying. So it's also a form of play, just like we did when we were kids.
31:00 Mike Carruthers? Yeah, I used to do that all the time. I used to talk to my dog and then answer for it.
31:06 Speaker 02 It's very common. Yeah.
31:08 Mike Carruthers? But yet it is kind of stupid, but.
31:11 Speaker 02 It's true. It's only anthropomorphizing your pets. People get made fun of for doing it a lot because it seems childish in a way perhaps, but it's totally normal. We all do it and it's a lot of fun and most of the time it's beneficial for us and the pets. So maybe we shouldn't beat ourselves up for doing it so much.
31:32 Mike Carruthers? Why do people study this though? I mean, it's cute and it's fun and it's interesting and, and all, but, but is, is it harmful? Is it good for you? I mean, what, what's the so what?
31:45 Speaker 02 Yeah, so that's the question. Why do we do it at all? Why can't we just ignore animals and not interact with them as if they were humans? And the question is, what is it about our minds that forces us to do this? And really, it gets into the heart of what is it about the human mind that makes us human? Humans are so keen to interact with other humans, and by interacting with them, we want to know what it is they're thinking. And that is not how animals interact with each other. Humans are obsessed with figuring out what each other are thinking. And so this is just an example of how important and fundamental that is to our minds, that when we interact with, like, you know, a coffee mug with two googly eyes on it, our
32:28 Speaker 02 brains think, oh, that might be another human, and they'll start talking to their coffee mug. So it's a sign of something very important happening in our brains.
32:36 Mike Carruthers? But is it beneficial? Are there any proven benefits to talking to your cat or your coffee mug? Or is it just, you know, it's a way to spend a few minutes and have a little fun? Or is it really doing something?
32:52 Speaker 02 Well, I have a friend who has a guitar, and he's a jazz musician, and he's named his guitar Chantel. And he's very good to his guitar, because that's how he makes his living. So he, you know, keeps it in a temperature-controlled area and talks to it. And so he's anthropomorphizing his guitar. But what happens is that that guitar will be in far better shape than someone who is not anthropomorphizing their guitar. So it's entirely possible that because humans use tools, and we've always used tools, when we anthropomorphize the tools and the objects in our lives, they last longer and they work better, and that actually made us a more successful species.
33:30 Mike Carruthers? Well, actually, that brings me to a question I meant to ask before. You said that it's fairly universal, but has it been fairly universal over time? Did people thousands of years ago do this? Or is this a fairly recent phenomenon, since movies, cartoons, and that kind of thing?
33:48 Speaker 02 I think when you look at art, so ancient Greek or Roman art, you'll certainly see examples of anthropomorphic little characters and whatnot, and puppets and things along those lines, which are sort of anthropomorphic. And even looking back at Neanderthal cave drawings and things, you have, sometimes you'll have characters in there that are sort of humanoid, half man, you know, half human, half animal. And so you've got evidence, at least in art, going back tens or hundreds of thousands of years, that humans have always sort of mapped our own minds and our own morphology onto animals and other characters in our art.
34:26 Mike Carruthers? I would imagine there are some people who don't do this much at all, and other people who probably go a little overboard with it. But has there been any research where they compare the two, like the people that don't do it to people who do, and what's the difference?
34:44 Speaker 02 Yeah, there's lots of reasons why some people would anthropomorphize more than others. You find that women, on average, do it slightly more than men. People suffering from things like psychopathy, or the inability to sort of empathize with other humans in a really dangerous way, they're far less likely to engage in anthropomorphism. So that it can be a sign, you know, famously, if you treat animals poorly, that might be a sign of some deficiency in psychopathy. So it is wrapped up into different personality types for different people. And yeah, and then culturally, you look at why some people do it more than others. And I look at this thing called the uncanny valley, and that's the, when you have like a humanoid object or cartoon
35:29 Speaker 02 that looks freakishly human-like, but just in the wrong way, that it makes us feel sort of an ick response to it. And you'll find that robots that are sparking this uncanny valley thing, it's less likely to happen in Japan than in the United States. So looking at who does it and why, and how to avoid things like the uncanny valley, is important for product designers.
35:51 Mike Carruthers? Product designers? Wait, that sounds kind of interesting. Explain that a little more.
35:57 Speaker 02 Yeah, so anthropomorphizing objects, that's a good way to get people to buy them. So if you put a, you know, a couple googly eyes on a toothbrush, or you make it look more human-like, you'll find across the board, people are more likely to buy that thing. So making objects more human-like makes us engage with them more. So if you're designing something like a robot, and you want people to like that robot, you have to design it in just the right way, so that it's human-like in a way that doesn't creep you out. So anthropomorphism, in that sense, is something that designers and marketers and roboticists are really interested in, because they want to get people to interact with their products.
36:36 Mike Carruthers? Well, that, yeah, that's interesting, because if you have a robot, if you think of a robot robot, like, you know, Rosie and the Jetsons, you want her to be human-like, but as you say, that can get really creepy, so that's a fine line to walk.
36:52 Speaker 02 That's it, because usually, the more human-like, the more we like it, but then we do hit that uncanny valley problem, where, if you think of that movie, Megan, it was a horror movie, where you had this, that robot looked very human-like, but moved in just the wrong way, and its eyes were kind of dead and non-human-like, and it makes us very much creeped out. And so avoiding that creepy feeling is important when you're designing a robot, and a lot of that has to do with the way our brains respond to indications of humanity in the things that we're looking at, which is what drives anthropomorphism.
37:25 Mike Carruthers? Well, as you point out, or I don't know if you have, you've sort of pointed out in this discussion, that when people anthropomorphize whatever, it's always, or usually, in a good way. Like, you don't create, you don't create your coffee mug and turn it into an evil coffee mug, it's usually something cuter than that.
37:49 Speaker 02 Yeah, anthropomorphizing means to interact with something as if it's another human, and humans are very social, so we want positive interactions with the things around us. So pretending that something is like a human brings us a lot of pleasure, and it's therefore beneficial most all the time. The problem is when you have an animal that you anthropomorphize, so you imagine that it's thinking and feeling these things, but that animal is actually thinking and feeling something totally different, you can stress the animal out and cause a lot of harm by anthropomorphizing it and getting it wrong.
38:22 Mike Carruthers? Well, you wonder how many people have had unfortunate encounters with animals that they thought were cute. Like, I hear koala bears who look adorable and you think of them as being so cute, and yet I hear they can be pretty nasty. And if you go, I just saw a video where some bull was coming at this lady, and she thought, "Oh, isn't this nice?" And guess what happened? I mean, it could be dangerous to do this.
38:53 Speaker 02 Yeah, and I saw that a lot with dolphins, which is a species I studied. People, they think they're very cute, and the dolphins would be, for a scientist studying them, we would see signs of aggression, the dolphins being very angry and potentially dangerous. But people would look at that cute face and think, "Oh, it's coming at me because it's friendly and maybe wants a hug." And so we get it wrong a lot of the time. But also in the other way, you have animals like sharks, or alligators, or spiders even, that look really scary, and so we're less likely to anthropomorphize them and want to kill them or whatever. But you can sometimes have a very friendly alligator, or friendly shark, that wants affection, or to be pet even. That's a thing that absolutely happens. But because
39:35 Speaker 02 of the way it doesn't look very human-like, we're less likely to anthropomorphize it.
39:40 Mike Carruthers? There does seem to be a trend to do this more and more, in the sense that people seem to be more indulgent of their pets. They throw them parties, and they buy them clothes, and the pet market of buying pet toys and accessories, I think is certainly a lot bigger than it ever used to be. So this seems to be a growing thing.
40:05 Speaker 02 Not that long ago, 150 years ago, people didn't really even keep cats in their homes or dogs. So they would have been outside animals. But slowly, over the decades, we've been incorporating them into our lives, to the point where now, the majority of people in the United States and in the UK throw birthday parties for their pets. Most people who own a pet will throw a birthday party for it. And that, I agree, it is trending upwards in that sense. I think there has been a stigma, especially in the 50s and 60s, of treating your pets like furry little humans, because, you know, at that time, we're like, well, they don't really have emotions or thoughts like we do. And now the science says, well, they do have a lot of emotions and thoughts that are similar
40:46 Speaker 02 enough to humans. So it's becoming less stigmatized to treat them like little human babies. And so, yeah, you're seeing it much more.
40:54 Mike Carruthers? This is now becoming a thing with AI. And, you know, I can't see ChatGPT. It doesn't have a face. I can't see it. But I feel like I'm talking to a person. And to the point where, you know, I will sometimes type, you know, "thank you." And I'm thanking nothing. I mean, I'm interacting with it as if it were human, when it's not.
41:20 Speaker 02 Yeah. And there's been a lot written about that, because some people say you shouldn't do that, because it's delusional. But there's good science to show that feeling that obligation like you have, or that I have to thank your chatbot for helping you out, it's a very human thing to do. And there's, you and I both know that it's not another human. And so, we're not delusional in that sense. And it's just good manners. And the good thing about it is if you're polite to a chatbot, you're more likely to be polite to a real person in real life. So it's sort of flexing your politeness muscle. So I say, it's, I say, "say thank you to your chatbot. It's only good for you."
41:59 Mike Carruthers? In the cases where we talk to inanimate objects, you talk to your teddy bear, or you talk to your coffee cupper, or even to your pet.
42:09 Mike Carruthers? You tend to do it in private when other people aren't around, and you certainly don't talk about it with other people. There's a level of embarrassment to doing it, even though everybody does it.
42:24 Speaker 02 That is true. There is still a stigma. Anthropomorphizing seems like something kids do, and it's really been that way for a long time. But just like where we're seeing people come out of the closet, as it were, with their pets and throwing birthday parties, I think it's becoming more and more accepted and common to be okay with anthropomorphizing the animals and even the objects in our lives. And I think we should embrace this behavior because it really causes no harm, and it really is such a fundamental aspect of the human mind to want to interact in a positive, social way, that we should embrace it. So I'm all for talking to your stuffed animals. I think it's healthy and we should be proud of it.
43:08 Mike Carruthers? But generally, kids outgrow it. There comes a day where they want to put the teddy bear away and don't want to talk to it anymore. And that seems like normal childhood development.
43:21 Speaker 02 That is absolutely true, that you get less likely to do it as you're older. However, that's not always true. People who are professional actors or who play for a living, in a sense, they continue to tap into this sort of childlike quality of playing pretend. And there's a lot of science to show that if you can continue to be playful as you age and engage in acting or do improv or anything that involves a kind of play, which can involve pretend play, pretending a puppet is talking to you or whatever, it's always quite healthy. So it is very much true that we do it less often as we get older. But I think there's an argument to be made that we should probably be doing it more often.
44:05 Mike Carruthers? This seems to be ripe for some people to perhaps carry it too far.
44:11 Speaker 02 You can carry it too far in the sense that you become obsessed with doing it. But usually, it's almost always positive. There are pathologies, however. Some people, when they're interacting with an object, truly do believe that that object has thoughts, emotions, and a feelings just like another human. And that is a very rare kind of pathology, objectophilia is called. And yes, that does need, you know, you need to have a professional talk to you about that. But again, that's extremely rare. I think the bigger risk really is, and we're seeing it more in the news, the way we are interacting with AI can be quite unhealthy and that a lot of people are having a hard time remembering that it is not another human that they're speaking to.
44:56 Mike Carruthers? Cars seem to be another thing people like to talk to. They talk to their car. They name their cars. Some people do. I've never named my cars, but I think a lot of people do.
45:07 Speaker 02 I'd say so, yeah. It's quite common to name your car. And if you look at a car, and there's lots of scientific research into this, the front of your car with the two headlights and the sort of grill in the middle, it looks a lot like a human face. And there are studies to show that our brains respond to the face of a car in exactly the same way they would a face of a human, which makes it even easier for us to anthropomorphize them. And interestingly, cars have been getting angrier looking over the past few decades. Like, if you think of cars from the 70s and 80s, they had bigger, rounder headlights, and now you have sort of squintier ones, which look more like someone scowling. So our cars have gotten unfriendly in the past 20 or 30 years.
45:50 Mike Carruthers? Yeah, I've noticed that. When you look in the rearview mirror and you see this car coming up behind you, and you attach a personality to it by the way it looks when it's just a car.
46:04 Speaker 02 Yeah, but there's plenty of research to show that we really, universally, all people respond kind of the same way and agree that, yeah, that car looks angry, or that car looks friendly. And again, it's because it's activating parts of our brain related to facial recognition. So we can't really stop ourselves from doing it in that sense.
46:23 Mike Carruthers? So except for those extreme cases, is there no harm for this? This is just very benign? This is just what people do? And it just is what it is?
46:34 Speaker 02 The harm really comes to the animals that we anthropomorphize kind of in the wrong way. So if you think that your dog is being jealous or cheeky and you sort of punish your dog for doing things that scientists are sure a dog is incapable of doing or understanding, then that is the problem with it. And of course, in the study of animal minds for scientists, we have to fight anthropomorphism sometimes because it forces us to imagine an animal as thinking something that it really isn't thinking. So that is a problem for scientists. But in most of your life, when you're interacting with an animal and pretending that it is like a little human, it's beneficial for you and it's usually neutral or beneficial
47:16 Speaker 02 for the animal because you're paying attention to it and giving it snacks and things. So on balance, it's usually a good thing for everyone involved.
47:25 Mike Carruthers? What do you find that people maybe don't realize or don't know about anthropomorphism that we probably should know or would be interesting to know?
47:36 Speaker 02 I just think it's neat to realize that marketers and political propagandists are very aware of how humans respond to anthropomorphic animals and other things. And so if you look at a lot of the propaganda material or just in an advertisement, they are putting like big eyes on something because we're attracted to eyes and we're more likely to think, to anthropomorphize something that has googly eyes on it. And so it has been sort of subtly manipulating all of our behavior for decades as people who produce these marketing materials use our anthropomorphism against us to get us to want to buy their products. I think that's something people don't quite think about very often.
48:21 Mike Carruthers? Well, if nothing else, it's nice to know that everybody does it, every culture has it. This desire for anthropomorphism is, we can't help but do it. I've been talking with Justin Gregg. He's author of the book Humanish: What Talking to Your Cat or Naming Your Car Reveals About the Uniquely Human Need to Humanize. And there's a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Hey, Justin, thanks for coming on.
48:48 Speaker 02 Thanks a lot. See you later.
48:53 Mike Carruthers? Have you ever been conned or cheated? Well, I actually already know the answer because everyone has been conned or cheated at some point in their life. And you have, at least partly, you have evolution to blame. You see, we're programmed to get along with other people, so the species will survive. So we have things in us like the trusting bias. We tend to trust people until we have a reason not to, rather than not trust people until we have a reason to trust them. Reciprocity. When someone gives us something, we feel obligated to give something in return. And con artists know this and use it all the time. And then there's the fear of embarrassment.
49:38 Mike Carruthers? No one wants to look like a fool, so we're reluctant to call someone out as a cheater or a liar, because if we were wrong, we'll be embarrassed. And not feeling embarrassed is a strong motivator. So we keep quiet and we go along. Also, we like to believe in a just world. Believing the world is fair makes us trusting. But sometimes too trusting. Being aware that you have this inclination to trust other people can help you stop and question things, especially when they sound too good to be true. And that is something you should know. Hey, if you haven't left a review of this podcast in a while, it's probably, or ever, it's probably a good time to do that. We really appreciate if you would leave a review.
50:23 Mike Carruthers? Whatever platform you're listening to us on, there's some way, some space, some button to hit, and it will let you leave a review and a rating, and we appreciate that. We really appreciate those five-star reviews. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.
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