The Psychology of Infidelity & How to Improve Your Executive Function

Have you ever wondered why some people seem to lose their hearing gradually while insisting they hear just fine? It turns out this isn't simply denial or stubbornness. The way hearing fades can fool the brain into believing everything is normal—often delaying treatment until significant hearing has already been lost. Listen as I explain what's really happening and why recognizing the signs isn't nearly as easy as you might think. Source: https://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/age-related-hearing-loss Few things are more painful—or more confusing—than discovering a partner has been unfaithful. Why do people risk everything for an affair? Is it simply a lack of self-control, or is something much deeper happening beneath the surface? And if infidelity comes to light, is the relationship automatically doomed, or can couples actually recover? Glenn Hutchinson, a clinical psychologist and behavioral researcher, joins me to separate myth from science and reveal what decades of research tells us about why people cheat, what their behavior really means, and what happens next. He is author of the new book Unfaithful Minds: The Science and Psychology of Infidelity (https://amzn.to/3UedjS8). Why do smart, capable people forget appointments, lose their train of thought, make impulsive decisions, or struggle to stay focused—even when they know better? The answer lies in something called executive function, the remarkable system in your brain that quietly manages attention, planning, memory, emotional control, and decision-making. When it works well, life feels easier. When it doesn't, the consequences can show up everywhere. Adrian Owen, professor of cognitive neuroscience at the University of Western Ontario, explains how executive function shapes nearly everything you do—and, more importantly, what you can do to strengthen it. He is author of the new book Think Before You Think: Understanding and Mastering Executive Function (https://amzn.to/4fGvlFd). Why do so many projects seem to fly along at first... only to crawl painfully toward the finish line? Whether you're remodeling a house, writing a report, or tackling a long to-do list, there's a surprising psychological reason the last stretch often feels endless. Once you understand what's happening, you'll have a much better chance of finishing on time instead of wondering where all the extra time disappeared. Source: https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/planning-fallacy PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS AIR DOCTOR: Head to ⁠https://AirDoctorPro.com⁠ and use promo code SYSK to get $250 off select AirDoctor air purifiers, including the 3500, 4000, and 5500 models. Plus, you’ll receive a free 3year warranty, an $84 value, and AirDoctor’s 30-day money back guarantee WAYFAIR: Ready to upgrade your home for way less? Head to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Wayfair.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ right now to shop all things home and get your space ready for less. QUINCE: Elevate your everyday. Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Quince.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too! SHOPIFY: It's time to turn those "what ifs" into CHA CHING with Shopify Today! Sign up for your $1 per month trail and start selling today at ⁠https://Shopify.com/realm⁠ INDEED: Get a $75 Sponsored Job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Indeed.com/PODCAST⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mike Carruthers?

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• 1:22Mike Carruthers?

  Today on Something You Should Know, why is it hard to tell when your own hearing starts getting worse? Then, infidelity. When a partner cheats, it can be devastating to the relationship.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  For some people, when they discover that their partner has been unfaithful, they assume that it's because there is something wrong with themselves, they're not attractive enough, or it's because they don't have a good enough personality. And in many cases, that's not true.

• 1:52Mike Carruthers?

  Also, why does the end of a task always seem to take longer than the beginning? And understanding and improving your executive function? What is it?

• 2:03Speaker 02

  It's the brain system that you use every day. It's the system that allows you to plan ahead, to focus attention, resist impulses, regulate emotions. The way I think about it is it's the brain's control system.

• 2:17Mike Carruthers?

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• 3:42Mike Carruthers?

  Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, please let them know it was Something You Should Know. It's the best way to support our show. Something You Should Know. Fascinating intel, the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. I bet that you know someone who you suspect doesn't hear as well as they used to. And I bet that person says, oh, no, no, no, no. Their hearing is just fine.

• 4:24Mike Carruthers?

  It happens all the time, and it's what we're going to dive into first today. I'm Mike Carruthers. Welcome to Something You Should Know. Most people assume that they would know immediately if their hearing started to decline. But surprisingly, they often don't. Hearing loss usually happens so gradually that your brain quietly adapts to it over months or years. Instead of noticing that sounds are disappearing, you simply get used to asking people to repeat themselves, or you turn up the TV a little louder, or you believe everyone else has started mumbling. Audiology says it's often a spouse, friend, or family member who notices the problem first.

• 5:07Mike Carruthers?

  That's one reason why regular hearing checks are important, even if you think your hearing is fine. Catching hearing loss early can make treatment much more effective and may even help reduce the risk of cognitive decline later in life. And that is something you should know. Infidelity is one of those things almost everyone has an opinion about. The assumption is usually that people cheat because they're unhappy, their relationship is broken, or they're simply bad people with poor self-control. But what if those explanations barely scratch the surface?

• 5:47Mike Carruthers?

  What if the real reason people betray someone they love has more to do with hidden processes in the brain than conscious choice? In fact, the science of infidelity may reveal something much bigger, not just why people cheat, but why any of us sometimes make decisions that go against our own values and best interests. Here to explain is Dr. Glenn Hutchinson. He's a clinical psychologist, behavioral researcher, and author of the book Unfaithful Minds: The Science and Psychology of Infidelity. Hi Glenn, welcome to Something You Should Know.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 6:25Mike Carruthers?

  So first, how big an issue is this? How often do people cheat?

• 6:31Speaker 01

  So the estimates have been, over the years, have been all over the place. The best numbers that we have are that about 25% of men and about 20% of women will at some point during their marriage act unfaithfully, have some kind of sexual encounter with another person. But that, again, those numbers, nobody has a great deal of confidence in them. Because when you do surveys, the numbers can be highly variable.

• 7:01Mike Carruthers?

  Are there as many reasons people cheat as there are people who cheat? Or does it really boil down to a few main reasons that people are unfaithful?

• 7:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the answer to your question is both yes and no. So there are some big reasons, but every case is different. So the big reason that you see, again, and there've been some really good surveys that were anonymous and representative samples. Women, when they are unfaithful, they report that it is, usually report that it's because there was something at home that they weren't getting, like in terms of emotional connection with their husbands. For men, it's usually a sexual opportunity that they're seeking. So those are your two big reasons that are consistently, that people consistently find in the research.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  Now, when you see couples, the stories are very different. They're all highly individual, and there are many factors that played a role in each individual case. So they all look very different at the level that I work at, where I'm actually working with individuals who are struggling to try to make sense of it and figure out what to do about it.

• 8:17Mike Carruthers?

  Figure out what to do about it when the other partner doesn't know? Or only after it's been uncovered that it becomes an issue for you to get involved in?

• 8:28Speaker 01

  Both. So I do actually have seen many people who were having an affair and their partner did not know. But I, of course, see many people, probably more people, who come in because they've gotten caught. And they are either seeking support just because there's so much anger and dissension at home, or they're, sometimes they're really perplexed. Sometimes people, surprisingly, don't feel like they have a good handle on why they allowed themselves to do this. You know, fully half of men, really, maybe a little more, who are unfaithful say that they were happy with their marriage, right up until the time that they were unfaithful.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  And so some of these guys, you know, they're kind of scratching their heads and wondering how they did this thing that was so destructive. So there are people come in for all different reasons, sometimes before they get caught and sometimes afterwards.

• 9:28Mike Carruthers?

  Typically, would you say, how fatal is infidelity to a relationship? How often is it just too much to bear?

• 9:39Speaker 01

  So this is one of those things that I think clinicians have to be very careful offering an opinion about because I know that there are people who, as soon as they hear that their spouse cheated, they just walk out the door and never come back. But I don't see them, right? I see the people whose partners have stayed and they are trying to work it out, they're trying to understand what happened. No, I do occasionally see somebody who comes in and says, "Well, I'm trying to figure out what happened and my partner left me a year ago because she discovered I was having an affair." But that's pretty rare. So again, my experience is mostly with the people who still have a chance of maintaining

• 10:23Speaker 01

  their relationship and they want to do so. It's hard for me to know what percentage of all cases of infidelity that is.

• 10:32Mike Carruthers?

  How often with men do you think, or do you see, where there's no real necessarily some huge underlying problem, it was just a variety issue? They wanted to see what other people thought of them, kind of thing?

• 10:54Speaker 01

  Very often. It's for men, they're very often happy with their marriage, but they have an opportunity for some kind of sexual experience with someone that they are attracted to. And they just get caught up in that. And it was not their intention to destroy their marriage. So I think it's a very common thing, particularly for men. Now, I don't want to exaggerate the differences between men and women on this because the truth is that many women who are unfaithful, they also report that they were happy with their marriages up until the time that they had the affair.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  But it's smaller, so it's more than half of men say that they were happy with their marriage up to the time they were unfaithful. And just a little under half of women say that.

• 11:46Mike Carruthers?

  You know, I'm curious how our culture in the West, how our attitudes about infidelity and how horrible it is to a marriage, how it compares to other cultures?

• 12:00Speaker 01

  Writers like Esther Perel, who's a very popular author, notes that most cultures are better than our culture at tolerating sexual indiscretions and being able to move forward. I would say, however, here's the thing that I don't think anybody in any Western culture is okay with, and maybe not in any culture, and that is the deception component of it, right? Because the deception isn't just about sexual infidelity, it's about trust. And when you undermine trust, that is very destructive. In the relationships that Esther Perel talks about, she has in mind that they've sort of come to some kind of agreement.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  So as long as people are acting within the parameters of that, then there's not a violation of trust. But that seems to be pretty rare. And I think the statistics actually indicate that in North America, in the United States and Canada, that's actually quite rare. There actually is a sizable percentage of people who say that, in theory, that is their ideal kind of relationship, but very few people are actually, very few people who are married are actually in that kind of relationship. There are many people who date who are in that kind of relationship, but far fewer who are actually married, who have an agreement that they can have sex with other people.

• 13:29Mike Carruthers?

  I've always heard the argument, when this comes up, that someone will say, "Well, you know, men in particular are not monogamous by nature." This is very common because men are looking to make babies and populate the planet, and to force men to be with one person for the rest of their life is not natural. To which you would say what?

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would say that there's some truth in that for both men and women. And the motivations are different, but if you look at it from an evolutionary standpoint, both men and women have motivations to develop relationships, sexual and emotional, with other people. The motivations, according to evolutionary theory, are different, but nevertheless, both sexes do have that motivation. So one of the reasons that people are unfaithful is that we evolved over eons, right?

• 14:31Speaker 01

  And so we have many different systems in our brain, like sex drive and a need for emotional connection, and hunger and thirst, and all kinds of things that are necessary for our survival. And most of these things operate on an unconscious level. Most of the activation in them occurs unconsciously. And sometimes we become aware of the product of one or another of these systems, like, "Okay, I'm thirsty." We become aware of that, but we don't see the process that led to that sensation. And so Helen Fisher was a prominent biological anthropologist, and she said that while many

• 15:15Speaker 01

  different systems in our brain no doubt contribute to our romantic and sexual behavior, if you want to understand this part of a person's life, you really need to pay attention mostly to three systems. One of them is sex drive, and that is just the part of our brain that causes us to want to have sex. Another is romantic love, or infatuation, and that's the part of our brain that makes us feel like we have a crush on somebody, or that we are in love with them. And the third one she was referring to is long-term attachment. And that's a system in our brain that causes us to have a deep sense of connection to somebody. It's the kind of connection that makes us feel secure and have meaning in our life, and we can't imagine being without them.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  But it's not as exciting as being in love, right? So Fisher's point was that these systems evolved for different purposes at different times, and they still operate largely independently. So if a person has a healthy, long-term attachment to their spouse, and they want to spend the rest of their life with them, that will not stop the sex drive system in their brain from causing them to experience intense sexual desire for an attractive stranger. And a lot of people get that, but what comes as more of a surprise to many people is that having a healthy, long-term attachment kind of love with your spouse also may not stop

• 16:45Speaker 01

  your romantic love system from causing you to experience a crush, or have a crush on somebody. So you meet people, or in my profession anyway, who've been married for a long time, decades, they love each other, but they would also tell you that one or both of them have periodically had pretty intense crushes on other people. So because we have these different systems in our brain, they operate relatively independently, they do what they do, which is what they've done to help us survive for hundreds of thousands of years, and by the way, they don't care what our 21st century moral values are. That's not a part of, not their interest.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  So they cause us to want things that may not at all be consistent with our values, or what we consciously think we should, what we consciously want to do.

• 17:37Mike Carruthers?

  You know, I'm really curious to hear your advice when somebody comes into your office and says, "I've had an affair, my partner doesn't know about it, don't think they'll ever find out about it, should I tell them? And I want to know what your advice is in that situation." And we'll discuss that when we come back in just a moment. A big thank you to today's sponsor, Vinted. I think most of us have what I call "someday clothes." "I'll wear that someday, that'll fit better someday, someday I'll have a place to wear that." Meanwhile, it's been hanging in the closet for three years. Vinted offers another possibility: sell it.

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• 19:00Mike Carruthers?

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• 19:43Mike Carruthers?

  We're talking about infidelity with Dr. Glenn Hutchinson. He is a clinical psychologist, behavioral researcher, and author of the book Unfaithful Minds: The Science and Psychology of Infidelity. So Glenn, if someone's having an affair, or had an affair, or had a fling, you know, it didn't last long, it's over, and they come to you and say, you know, I did this, you know, my wife will never find out, or my husband will never find out. Should I just move on? Or should I tell him? And should we get into this? What do you say?

• 20:16Speaker 01

  So that's a conversation that comes up all the time, right? And it depends on a number of factors. I mean, the first thing that I would say to somebody in that situation is, you, are you sure they're never going to find out? Because these things have a way of coming out, right? And here's what I also tell people is, and again, it depends on your spouse. It depends on you and many things. But there are many spouses who, if you go to them and you are contrite and sincerely regret what you did, you guys may be able to work through this. And then you can have a really great connection in the future. But if you don't tell them,

• 21:00Speaker 01

  and they discover it some other way, then there's going to be no trust, right? Because not only did you do it, but you didn't tell them about it. And so you, so if there's any chance, any meaningful chance that they are going to find out about it some other way, then the thing to do is to talk about it with them. In most cases, if you really want to have a clear conscience and have the ability to have a really close emotional connection with your spouse in the future, then the thing to do is come clean about it.

• 21:35Mike Carruthers?

  What, in your work, what is it about this whole topic that you think people maybe don't get? Don't understand? Is there anything? Or it is what it is? I mean, someone's cheated on their spouse, and there are ramifications to that?

• 21:52Speaker 01

  When you really look at how many cases of infidelity come about, that is, what leads to them, I think it can take the edge off of the pain for some people. And that is because, I mean, it's always going to be painful. But for some people, when they discover that their partner has been unfaithful, they assume that it's because there is something wrong with themselves. They think that it's because they're not attractive enough, or it's because they don't have a good enough personality. Or they might think that their partner no longer loves them. And in many cases, that's not true. When you get into, and I think the more

• 22:34Speaker 01

  that people understand about how behavior arises, and we were just talking about that, like Helen Fisher's theory and the fact that we have these processes that operate unconsciously in our heads. When you come to understand that and really sort of assimilate that into your picture of the world, I think it can take the edge off of the pain. It feels less personal in a certain sense, meaning it's not because, it's not because you did something wrong, or there's something wrong with you. It's just simply, you know, this person, they had this temptation, and they did not restrain themselves. And that's another matter.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  But, but it wasn't aimed at you. And I think that that is a very important thing for people to understand.

• 23:25Mike Carruthers?

  When we talk about infidelity, we kind of lump all infidelity into one category. But there are different kinds of infidelity in this sense. There's the one-night-stand, where just things happened, got out of control. And then there's an affair, where you have a real relationship with somebody else. Do you look at those two differently? Or is the betrayal the same, so the crime is the same?

• 23:53Speaker 01

  Well, I try not to judge one as more morally acceptable than the other. But here's what I do think. The, nine times out of 10, the one-night-stand is a lot easier for a couple to get past because there's not a relationship. And so the partner who finds out about it, they, you know, in most cases, they can see that this was like this one-off thing. You were at a convention. You met some stranger. She was hot. And, you know, and the partner is furious about it, and they should be. But they, they don't feel like, okay, my husband's in love with somebody else. And he's not in love with somebody else. If, you know, when there's really an affair,

• 24:37Speaker 01

  then it is, I mean, there are people, I mean, some people get caught, and they're not even sure if they want to stop having the affair. They, maybe they, you know, want to get divorced. So, yeah, that's a, it's a, it's generally a much greater threat, a much more difficult thing for a couple to recover from.

• 24:56Mike Carruthers?

  When somebody comes into your office because they've cheated, or a couple comes in because they got caught, how often is it the first time?

• 25:08Speaker 01

  How often is it the first time? That's a good question. I see a mix of that.

• 25:15Mike Carruthers?

  Are there a lot of serial cheaters? Or is it really kind of a rare, more rare thing than that?

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's both. And I do see those as different things from the standpoint of their partner, right? So there are, there are many people who cheat once. They have a one-night-stand, and they're horrified and can't believe they did it, and feel really guilty. And they don't ever do it again. On the other hand, there are people who are serial cheaters, and there are, you know, some risk factors for this. One of them is that for people who had lots of sexual partners before they got married, there, it's, it's normal for them to periodically establish new romantic and sexual relationships.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  So they may be at higher risk. I recently, in my practice, had a guy kind of like this come in. He was in his mid-30s, good-looking, successful guy. He'd had dozens of sexual partners since, since his teenage years. And he was finally dating someone he wanted to marry. And he was smart enough to come in. He said, you know, I really love this woman. I want to be married to her. But, you know, I've been, I've been out there a long time. Am I ever going to be able to not get into that mode? For him, it was like there was this whole mindset he could get into. And he, it was just the chase, right? And that was exciting. And he was smart enough to know there are a lot of things that just can just sort of make my mind go there. And am I going to be able to be faithful?

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Is it even realistic for me to do that?

• 26:55Mike Carruthers?

  To which you replied?

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Said it's going to be a challenge. It's, you know, the fact that you do have an established pattern of this kind of behavior means that you are going to feel tempted to do that probably a lot more often and more intensely than other men. But I affirmed that his concern was quite legitimate.

• 27:21Mike Carruthers?

  Well, it sounds like, from listening to you talk for the last 20 minutes, it sounds like you're hopeful that infidelity is not necessarily fatal if a couple wants to get past it, depending on a lot of things. But, but that there is hope if the goal is shared, and the goal is to move on and live happily ever after. I've been speaking with Dr. Glenn Hutchinson. He is a clinical psychologist, a behavioral researcher, and author of the book Unfaithful Minds: The Science and Psychology of Infidelity. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Glenn, this was really insightful. I appreciate you spending the time.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  I appreciate it. Take care.

• 28:03Speaker 03

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• 29:02Mike Carruthers?

  Ever walk into a room and forget why you came in? Or misplace your keys even though you just had them? Or blurt out something and immediately wish you could take it back? Or find yourself staring at your computer unable to focus on the task that's right in front of you? Those aren't just random lapses, they all point to the same thing, something in your brain called executive function. It's the system that helps you plan, focus, remember, control impulses, and make good decisions. When it's working well, you hardly notice it, but when it isn't, life can get surprisingly difficult. Here to explain what executive function is, why it sometimes lets us down, and what you

• 29:46Mike Carruthers?

  can do to make it better is Adrian Owen. He is a professor of cognitive neuroscience at the University of Western Ontario and author of a book called Think Before You Think: Understanding and Mastering Executive Function. Hi Adrian, welcome to Something You Should Know.

• 30:04Speaker 02

  Hi, thanks so much for having me on.

• 30:07Mike Carruthers?

  So first, let's define executive function. What is it exactly?

• 30:12Speaker 02

  That's a really great question, because there really is no universal agreement about how many executive functions there are and what they are. Broadly speaking, it's the brain system that you use every day, but hardly anyone will have heard of it. So it's the sort of, it's the system that allows you to plan ahead, to focus attention, resist impulses, regulate emotions. The way I think about it is it's the brain's control system. So it's not the part of the brain that does automatic things like seeing, or hearing, or moving, even understanding, but it's the part that you deploy in order to improve

• 30:56Speaker 02

  your ability to plan, to think ahead, to remember something you specifically want to remember, so to take control of, if you like, lower brain functions.

• 31:07Mike Carruthers?

  Do we know where the term came from and who came up with it? Because it sounds kind of like, well, if you're not an executive, this doesn't apply, but clearly it does. But why is it executive function?

• 31:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I looked into this, and actually, I think it was first mentioned as a word in the 1970s by a psychologist called Carl Pruberam. And the idea, I think, was taken from some early computing terminology at the time. So it wasn't really executive in the sense of a person, but rather the executive controller of a really complex machine.

• 31:50Mike Carruthers?

  And so what do we know about it? Why do we talk about it? It comes up a lot in conversations, certainly in people I interview with, the term often comes up, so it must be important, but what is, why is it so important?

• 32:07Speaker 02

  You know, it's enormously important. I started studying this as a graduate student back in the late 1980s, and I've been working on executive function ever since. And honestly, back then, nobody would use that term, nobody knew what it meant, it wasn't a term that was in common usage. And you're absolutely right, I see this all the time, I have patients who come to me and say, I've been told my mother's got problems with executive function, or my kid's misbehaving at school, and he's got dysexecutive function. It's a, it's terminology that's everywhere. So if you think about your brain, most of the time, it's operating on autopilot.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  Imagine you see a familiar face, somebody you know, you don't decide to recognize that person, your brain does that for you automatically, and it's very convenient that that happens. Anybody listening to me speaking right now, you're also understanding what you're hearing automatically, you can't decide to not understand me, and that's because what we call language comprehension, or your ability to understand spoken language, is something that the brain does automatically. And that's true of most of our functions, and that's where, in fact, most of neuroscience is focused in the last 30 years or so.

• 33:32Speaker 02

  But the important thing about executive functions are, they are the way, or the mechanism that the brain has for taking control of these things. So it's the difference between automatically recognizing a face, and seeing a group of people, and deciding that you're going to recognize one of the faces in particular. It's the process that allows you, in a crowded room, when you're having a conversation with the person next to you, to tune that out, and actually tune into a conversation going on on the other side of the room. That's attention, which is another very important executive function.

• 34:14Speaker 02

  It's also the part, the part of your brain, or the brain system, that allows you to not only respond emotionally in a situation, but to decide what that response should be. So the example I often use when I'm teaching executive function is, you imagine that you were confronted in a, you know, dark alleyway by a would-be assailant. You can be scared, and that's something that you can't really control, but what you can do is you can control your responses to that. You can look at the situation, decide, well, is there a way out of this situation? You could turn and decide to run, you could stand and decide, you could stand your ground

• 34:59Speaker 02

  as it were, and decide to fight. There are many different options that you have, and I think what executive function does is it provides us with those options. In any complex situation, whether it's dealing with an assailant in a dark alley to raising our kids, it's about making decisions and taking options, taking control of your brain's autopilot, if you like.

• 35:25Mike Carruthers?

  So we all have executive function, is it something that is static, or you can make it better, or things affect it, or what?

• 35:35Speaker 02

  That's a really great question, and I think something we've looked at in my lab over the years is how you can train these things, can you get better? And there are certainly some ways in which you can get better at certain components of executive function. So if you take working memory, for example, or, which is really what we now used to call short-term memory, but it's the idea of holding on to something in your mind for as long as you need it. That's something you can certainly get better at. I don't think you can get better at just sort of exercising your brain, what you can do is you can develop strategies for improving it.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  And one of the arguments that I've made is that the strategy that you can use that makes the biggest difference is just to think about what you're thinking. So instead of just letting your mind wander on autopilot and remember this, perhaps remember that, forget this, forget that, decide what it is you want to remember. And just that simple act alone will improve your memory for the things that are important in life. And I think that cuts across almost all of our executive processes, it's using the executive functions that you have to improve the brain functions that you already possess.

• 37:01Speaker 02

  So short answer to your question is, no, I don't think you can easily improve them in the way that you can get fitter on an exercise bike, and you know, improve your stamina or whatever, but I think you can improve how you use your executive functions.

• 37:19Mike Carruthers?

  And do things like stress and sleep, or lack of sleep, affect it? Or it pretty much runs on its own, and maybe you can make it a little better?

• 37:30Speaker 02

  That's really, it's a really interesting question, and in fact, the reassuring news is that there isn't one magical solution, right? Executive functions are influenced by lots of different aspects of our lives. Small changes in lots of areas are going to be more effective than trying to find a single brain hack. And this is why, and we've published a lot of data on this in the past, this is why, you know, commercial brain trainers do not work. They may make you really good at playing commercial brain trainers, but they're not going to spill over into other aspects of your life, they're not going to make you smarter, if you like.

• 38:09Mike Carruthers?

  I'm not familiar with the term "commercial brain trainer."

• 38:13Speaker 02

  Brain training systems that you pay for, you know, online games, there are many enormous companies that offer to, you know, make you smarter by playing their games for 15 minutes every day. And we've shown in a very carefully controlled series of studies involving more than 11,000 people, that these things generally do not work. They'll make you good, you know, if they train you on remembering numbers, you'll get better at remembering numbers, but you'll be no better at remembering letters, or remembering words, or remembering faces. But as you've suggested, exercise, sleep, stress, all of these things do have small effects on our ability to perform our executive functions.

• 38:56Speaker 02

  I mean, sleep is a very good example, where, again, we had a study of, I think, about 15,000 people, we looked at their sleeping habits, and how their executive functions were affected the next day. And, you know, these people were no worse at remembering things after perhaps four hours' sleep, but they were very bad at making decisions. And that's, I think that's a really good example of where executive function comes in, and why it differs to many other brain functions. So, you know, if you want to be sure to, you know, remember to sign that document first thing in the morning, if you've only had four hours' sleep, it's probably not going to have a huge effect. But if you need to decide whether to buy this house, or that house, or whether to invest

• 39:41Speaker 02

  in a new opportunity, or whether to make a big decision in life, you probably shouldn't do that on four hours of sleep.

• 39:50Mike Carruthers?

  So these things that make up executive function, do you find huge differences in people? And if so, why are there huge differences in people? Or are people pretty much on the same level?

• 40:02Speaker 02

  No, there are huge differences in people, and I think it would be, it would be naive to assume that we are all exactly the same, and it's exactly the same reason that it would be naive to say that, you know, we are all equally fit. But that's not the same as saying, for example, somebody is more intelligent than somebody else. I think executive function really is something that's quite different to general intelligence. And the important part is that there are many different components of executive function. As I've talked about working memory already, there's attention, our ability to to attend to certain things and ignore other things. There's what we

• 40:46Speaker 02

  call emotional regulation, our ability to control how we respond to a particular type of emotional situations. Another executive function I discussed in the book is called is known as theory of mind, which I haven't talked about yet. But that's my ability to understand what another person is thinking when I'm interacting with them. And that's terribly important in every social situation. Now, what we know about executive functions is that each of these functions is located, if you like, or is driven by a different set of brain regions or networks. And what that means is that you could be good at one

• 41:31Speaker 02

  and bad at something else. And we've all heard the old sort of idea of the absent minded professor. And I think there's a lot of truth in that, that you can excel in in one area. You maybe have an excellent memory, but you put yourself into a town you've never been to before, and you'll get lost very quickly. And so, so, yes, people do vary, but they vary across executive functions in that you can be better at one and not as good at another.

• 42:00Mike Carruthers?

  But the person who the absent minded professor, who remembers things but goes to a town and gets lost, can he say, I'm going to get better at this and try to improve his ability to go to a town and not get lost? Or he's always going to go to a town and get lost?

• 42:17Speaker 02

  Well, that's the question. There's two answers to it. One of them is, yes, you can get better. But what he or she would need to do is to focus on the actual problem. What is it? Why is it that that person is not particularly good at finding their way through an unfamiliar environment? And practicing navigating through unfamiliar environments will be one way to improve that particular skill. Again, it's not going to make that person overall smarter in the sense that it's not going to improve their memory or make them better at anything else. But it will certainly have an effect on the particular

• 42:58Speaker 02

  problem that they have. But the other answer to your question, which is about assisted technologies, including AI, you know, and that is, well, can we use these new tools that we have available to us intelligently? And, you know, one way of solving the problem of the absent minded professor who can't find his way around an unfamiliar environment is, of course, to use some kind of GPS system to assist. And this is something that we're seeing more and more, that people are filling in gaps. In fact, smart people are filling in gaps in their executive armoury, if you like, with other types of technology that can help with these things.

• 43:41Mike Carruthers?

  Do you think that if you were to ask 100 people about their executive function and where their strengths and weaknesses are, most people know? Or are we all deluding ourselves into thinking we're all pretty good at these things?

• 43:57Speaker 02

  I think we are. And I think the reason for that, I think we are deluding ourselves into into thinking that we understand this stuff. And I think the reason for that is largely because the neuroscience hasn't really, the current neuroscience hasn't really reached the mainstream media. So although, you know, people may have heard the term executive function, they may have been told that one of their relatives has a problem with executive function. It's not something that is extremely well understood by the general public. But neuroscientifically, we understand it extremely well now. We have, you know, modern brain imaging methods that we've been using for more than 30 years now to unpack exactly

• 44:40Speaker 02

  which bits of the brain are involved in executive function, how many executive functions are there, how they interact, can you be good at this one but bad at that one? Or do the two go together? So, you know, and I think the way people often describe themselves is more of an average of all of those things, because, you know, perhaps the information about the nuances hasn't yet sort of seeped through to the general public. They'll make a general assessment of, yeah, I'm pretty cognitively good, or I'm, you know, I'm a bit dull in this area. But actually, the truth is, for each of us, it's much more nuanced

• 45:21Speaker 02

  than that. You can have extreme strengths and equivalent weaknesses in different areas.

• 45:27Mike Carruthers?

  Why do you think it's important to talk about this? I understand why, in your field, as a neuroscientist, this is important. But why is this important for the rest of us? Why are we talking about this?

• 45:40Speaker 02

  We're talking about it because executive function has so many implications for so many of us. There's not only what we discussed, healthy people, the effects of sleep, the effects of diet, the effects of anxiety. But for people that are having challenges with their brain, it's really important. Alzheimer's disease, for example, and other forms of dementia are not really about memory at all. Memory, the memory problems are just what you see when the disease process has progressed to a point that it's very visible. But much earlier than that, you very often see changes in executive function.

• 46:19Speaker 02

  And this is really why people often say, well, they're just not the same person. Because the person runs into problems, you know, planning a shopping trip, or organizing their finances, or following a recipe, these bigger picture issues with everyday life. Actually, when you look at patients who are on the road to dementia, these are the sorts of things that one can identify first. And in fact, we've used exactly this to develop a tool that can predict who is going to go on and develop dementia, and who is just suffering from old age like the rest of us. So it's very important there. I would say

• 47:00Speaker 02

  another area where there's a very real world example of why executive function needs to be thought about a little bit more is with ADHD. Everybody's familiar with ADHD. Now, a lot of money is being spent on drugs to combat ADHD. But, you know, it's a problem that is much more than not paying attention. People with ADHD often know exactly what they should do, but they struggle to translate intention into action. So they actually show many of the key aspects of executive or problems with executive function. And I think one

• 47:44Speaker 02

  of the biggest misconceptions about people with ADHD is that they simply can't pay attention. And that's one area where I think focusing on executive function and focusing on approaches to getting people to work on their own executive function can be as helpful as pharmacological interventions in some contexts.

• 48:04Mike Carruthers?

  And what does that mean to work on your executive function? When you had said earlier, it seems like it's kind of set in stone to some extent.

• 48:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, well, it's set in stone, but how we use it isn't set in stone. I mean, and what I mean by that, again, is just people, by just simply thinking about what they're thinking, can really make their brains much more powerful. Instead of just going through life, doing whatever comes through your door, looking at whatever comes in front of your visual field, think about it. Think about what's the thing that I could do now that would optimize this situation for me? I'm in this situation. Is

• 48:52Speaker 02

  there something that I should be focusing my attention on, rather than let it mind wander, you know, into something completely different? I'm sure we've all had that experience of walking into a room and forgetting why we're there, or just losing our train of thought, or reading a passage, a paragraph from a book three times, because each time we try and read it, our mind wanders somewhere else. Now, the solution to that is not a drug, or it's not practicing attention. I think the solution is to think about what it is that you really want to do right now. Do you want to concentrate on this book? Or do you want to go and doom scroll on your phone? Or do you want to go and do your

• 49:36Speaker 02

  accounts? Simply thinking about where you should apply your brain, if you like, will help us take greater control over our lives.

• 49:45Mike Carruthers?

  Well, I've always had a sense, I think everybody has a sense of what executive function is, but now I really understand it and realize how important it is. I've been talking with Adrian Owen. He is a professor of cognitive neuroscience at the University of Western Ontario. And his book is called Think Before You Think: Understanding and Mastering Executive Function. And there's a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Adrian, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for coming on.

• 50:13Speaker 02

  Great. Yep. Thanks very much, Mike. Really enjoyed it.

• 50:16Mike Carruthers?

  Whether you're painting a room, or writing a report, or even cleaning the garage, you've probably noticed that once you're almost finished, progress seems to slow to a crawl. That's because the easy predictable work usually comes first. The final stretch is where all the little details and corrections and testing and unexpected problems show up. Project managers have long recognized this phenomenon, and it's one reason experienced professionals often leave far more time at the end of a project than beginners do. Knowing this can help you plan more realistically and save yourself from the frustration of

• 51:00Mike Carruthers?

  thinking you're almost done, when you're really not. And that is something you should know. This would be a perfect time for you to write a review of something you should know. You can write a review for whatever platform you're listening. They usually have a leave a review thing, and you can just tell us what you think. We read those reviews. We appreciate those reviews, and they help. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

• 51:28Speaker 04

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• 51:54Speaker 05

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