How to go from Boring to Extraordinary (ft. Codie Sanchez)

In an era where “quiet quitting” and “self-care” obsessions seem to be all the rage, there’s a huge opportunity to set yourself apart from everyone else—and it’s not as hard as you might think. Codie Sanchez set herself apart by buying “boring businesses” and turning her venture into a multi-million dollar enterprise. But for Codie, it’s about so much more than the money. Her simple mantra is, “question everything”, and it has given her a unique perspective on life, relationships, and happiness, which we explore here in this week’s pod. This was a fun interview, check it out. CHAPTERS Chapters 00:00:00 Introduction: The Best Time in History to Be a High Performer 00:04:04 Why Cody Started Writing and the Trojan Horse of Money 00:07:25 Leaving Everything on the Field: What Drives High Performers 00:09:22 The Drawbacks of Drive and Finding What's Worth Pursuing 00:13:12 From the Border to Goldman Sachs: Money as the Great Equalizer 00:15:14 Learning the Language of Money and Going Direct to People 00:17:37 Mark's Journey: Loving the Scrappy Struggle 00:20:25 The Hedonic Treadmill and Playing the Game You Love 00:21:37 When Did We Decide Work Couldn't Be Fun? 00:25:12 The Work Hours Myth and Redefining Overwork 00:26:50 The Prevalence Inflation Effect: When Mental Health Awareness Backfires 00:29:15 Why Now Is the Golden Age for Performers 00:31:02 Why Aren't There More Women in Business Leadership? 00:33:17 The Wing, Pink Rooms, and Crochet: Where Women's Business Went Wrong 00:35:23 Business Creators vs Beauty Creators: The Audience Size Gap 00:37:23 The Great Gender Divergence: When Audiences Split 00:39:56 Why Social Media Kills Nuance and What We Can Do About It 00:41:49 The Anti-Trigger Experiment: Choosing Not to Be Emotionally Hijacked 00:44:42 Picking Your Battles and Avoiding Clickbait Temptation 00:45:50 The Boring Business Cycle: From Mockery to Meme 00:47:27 Economic Hardship and the Make Money Space Boom 00:48:20 Caring What Smart People Think and the Resume of Failures 00:51:18 The Irony of Big Opportunities and Trouble Delegating ⇨ Sign up for my newsletter, Your Next Breakthrough. It will help make you a less awful person: ⁠⁠⁠⁨https://markmanson.net/breakthrough⁩⁠⁠⁠ ⇨ Get clarity on what actually matters. Try Purpose, Mark's AI mentor app that learns your patterns, challenges your blind spots, and helps you take action. Get started at ⁠⁠⁠⁨https://bit.ly/4w46FMH⁠⁠⁠ FOLLOW MARK Mark's IG: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/markmanson⁠ Solved IG: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/solvedpodcast/⁠ Twitter: ⁠https://x.com/markmanson⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/markmanson/⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@IAmMarkManson

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mark Manson?

  In 1935, the acclaimed historian Will Durant and his wife Ariel set about one of the most auspicious undertakings in the history of, well, history. They set out to write a series of books telling the complete story of human civilization, from ancient Egypt all the way up to modern Europe. The project would take them 40 years, and in the end, their 11-volume series would span over 13,000 pages. Now, towards the end of this project, the couple wrote a similar, yet much smaller, book. The 100-page book was called The Lessons of History, and it chronicled the most interesting patterns and takeaways that they had learned from spending their entire lives studying the span of human civilization. Now, that book is a treasure trove of insights into humanity and the natural tendencies

• 0:44Mark Manson?

  of human societies, and one of those takeaways has stuck with me my entire life. The Durant said something like this: "As technology advances, it promises greater equality, but always creates greater inequality, and this is because it disproportionately rewards people of higher skill and effort." Basically, the highest performers leverage the benefits of new technology before everyone else, gaining most of the benefits. This has been true throughout the millennia, on every continent, in every culture, from the invention of the wheel all the way to the microprocessor. Today, we live in another age of insane technological advancement, and, as always, the highly skilled and most driven are being disproportionately rewarded.

• 1:24Mark Manson?

  But, on top of everything else, I'd argue we also live in an age of lowered expectations. Between quiet quitting, the burnout epidemic, work-life balance, the record-low employment participation, great inflation in schools, and the lack of standardized testing, the trend throughout society and pop culture is to work less, try less, push yourself less, and go ahead, take that mental health day, blow a bunch of money at the spa. I mean, it's self-care, right? Ah, go on, you deserve it. Between technological advancement and lower expectations, we live in one of the best times in history to be a high performer. You have more to gain and less competition to gain it than ever before. Now, today's guest, Cody Sanchez, is a high performer. She started her career as an award-winning journalist covering the drug cartels along the Mexican border.

• 2:10Mark Manson?

  Horrified by what she saw, she realized that nothing was going to change until large amounts of money got involved. So she went into finance, climbed the ranks of the banks, and got access to some of the most powerful people in the world. But it turned out, they didn't give a shit, and large institutions kind of suck. So then she decided she would go straight to the people. Starting in a newsletter, later a social media following, and finally a podcast. Since then, she's amassed millions of followers and now educates people on the basics of finance, business operations, investing, and how to buy and run what she calls boring businesses. Cody herself owns at least part of 40 businesses. Most of them are boring businesses, stuff like car washes and laundromats. Within these

• 2:51Mark Manson?

  businesses, she looks for and pushes people to become high performers, because she understands this is the best time alive, if you are willing, to be a high performer. In this episode, Cody and I talk about why money and business is the international language and why we all need to know how to speak it, how to enjoy the struggle of learning something new, and why being pushed by others is so important, why being good at something, anything, and feeling useful is a core component of human happiness, and why we are no longer being pushed or celebrated for hard work. We also talk about how the definitions of hard work and work-life balance has changed, and how that has repercussions in the work world. And finally, we talk about why there are not more women business leaders, and why

• 3:32Mark Manson?

  she thinks we're approaching the gender question entirely incorrectly. But before we begin, if you like the show, please follow, please subscribe, please leave a review. That way we can tell the world that I'm a high performer, and my ego will be satiated just for another week. Okay, onward. This is the conversation with Cody Sanchez.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  The podcast that's saving the world, one fewer fuck at a time. It's the subtle art of not giving a fuck podcast with your host, Mark Manson.

• 4:03Mark Manson?

  So you're most well-known for promoting boring businesses, contrarian thinking. I'm curious, why did you start writing?

• 4:12Speaker 02

  Because the world shut down in 2020. So at the time, I was supposed to be doing a roadshow, going out and investing in different companies and raising capital for our fund. And I couldn't do it, because they told me to stay in my house and shut my mouth. And so I did, and I got really bored. And because of that, I started writing a little newsletter. And I thought that little newsletter would be fun, like a fun side project. And then it took on a life of its own and I really started obsessing about this idea that it could really be a business. And I started writing Contrarian Thinking, the newsletter with this idea that the world was losing its mind. The ability to question something, I think, is like the most central part of being a human. And so that bothered me. And I started writing about it from that perspective.

• 4:55Speaker 02

  And then I realized, everybody actually thinks that they think quite well. And so I was like, well, that's not gonna work. People don't actually want better frameworks for thinking because they think they're by and large right. And so I said, well, what does everybody want? And everybody does want money. Just, I mean, you know this, it's like, everybody wants to be loved, right? They want to be respected. They want money. They want health to be sexy, or is that part of love?

• 5:17Mark Manson?

  It was, Ben Franklin had three categories.

• 5:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, what are they?

• 5:20Mark Manson?

  The health, wealth, and love.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  Health, wealth, and love.

• 5:22Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  And I know a lot about money, just from my industry stolen fragments. And so I said, I think the Trojan horse to thinking might be to get people caring about money, because money typically comes with some form of ownership. Like, you're not gonna just get money for nothing, unless you have a trust fund.

• 5:37Mark Manson?

  So this actually, this is, this is actually an interesting issue that shows up in a lot of psychology, sociology, economic research, because you can go out and survey people saying like, what do you think about X?

• 5:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:50Mark Manson?

  And people will come back and they say, oh, we love X. But if you say, do you, what do you spend your money on? They're like, oh, no, no, we don't spend our money on it. You know, we spend our money over here on this. And it's, it's called, uh, revealed preferences.

• 6:02Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 6:03Mark Manson?

  And it's actually a huge problem in psychology, because people don't behave the way they tell you. Like, they, they will say one thing and go do another. And so, a lot of people believe, and I agree, that the way to actually see what people value and care about is to see what they're willing to spend money on, or where they're willing to invest, uh, their dollars.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  I think you're right. Well, and also, I don't think it's that they don't, it's that we don't actually do the things we even think we do.

• 6:29Mark Manson?

  Oh, for sure. We're lying to ourselves.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  Oh, even if we don't realize it, I think humans are incredible self rationalizing machines.

• 6:36Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 6:36Speaker 02

  With the innate ability to actually believe our own bullshit.

• 6:38Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  And so, you know, I, I joke with this about my husband all the time. It's like, have you ever gotten in a fight with your wife? Never, I'm sure. But let's say that you had.

• 6:46Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 6:46Speaker 02

  Then I imagine at some point you're like, you said X. And she's like, no, no, I said Y. And you both are living in an experience in which you think you're a thousand percent correct.

• 6:56Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  And yet, neither of you are probably crazy, otherwise you wouldn't have stayed married for so long, right? And so I always laugh with him. I'm like, you know, I thought, I, I, I never liked when the hippies said things like, well, this was my lived experience. Except that I think it's true.

• 7:09Mark Manson?

  My truth.

• 7:12Mark Manson?

  There is no my truth. There is the truth.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. And the problem is that we humans aren't very good at finding it.

• 7:18Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 7:18Speaker 02

  You know?

• 7:19Mark Manson?

  What do you give a fuck about that most people don't?

• 7:22Speaker 02

  I, I have a burning need for feeling like, at the end of the day, if I die, I've done enough. There's this Emma Bonbeck quote. The quote is basically that when I stand before God at the end of my days, I will have not one drop of talent left. I will have given you everything that I had. And I always liked that idea of like, at the end of the day, you're just like wrinkled and ringed out and there's nothing left.

• 7:48Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 7:48Speaker 02

  You know, and, and so maybe if there's nothing after this, at least you can leave it all on the field. And so that's what drives me and what I actually really care about. And sometimes I think, man, wouldn't the world be so interesting if more people thought that way? If they were like, what if I just like reached inside and tried to pull out every single thing inside of me that could deliver some value to the world? Um, and I think it's really sad that instead of doing that, we, we distract ourselves so much. And we spend so much time living other people's lives. And, you know, if, if you were on a team at any of my companies, that's what I talk about all the time. I'm like, there is such a unique honor in being around a bunch of other people who want to achieve something great.

• 8:30Speaker 02

  Cause it's totally contagious. And we were talking about this today and I forget what the effect is. I can never remember the name, but it's something like chameleon, but pygmalion? Might be the pyg- pygmalion effect. Wasn't that it, Tanner? We can never decide how to how to pronounce the name.

• 8:45Mark Manson?

  We'll look it up.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:46Mark Manson?

  We'll put it on screen.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  Cody Georgetown grad can't pronounce anything. But moral of the story is basically that you rise to the level of the highest standards placed on you.

• 8:56Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  Often.

• 8:56Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 8:57Speaker 02

  And so how sad that we're placing all of these low standards and low abilities on people. We think that that's doing them a solid, like you don't have to achieve much. You should quiet quit. You need work life balance. And it's like, actually, in fact, you probably need the opposite of that. And so I sit up some nights talking with my husband about that. And that is what makes me saddest about the world and that I care about it. Maybe lots of people don't.

• 9:19Mark Manson?

  Do you see any drawbacks of that?

• 9:22Speaker 02

  I think the drawback would be if if I had unhealthy habits that couldn't let me have enjoyment in life. Like if I wasn't also healthy and I didn't have a great relationship with my husband and friends and family. You could take that to the pure extreme for sure. But I actually think that's pretty rare.

• 9:38Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  I think it's very, very rare that somebody finds something that they're obsessed with doing. And then does it to the point of personal detriment. What I found instead is if you do things to personal detriment, it's usually ego, you know?

• 9:53Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 9:53Speaker 02

  It's like, I just want a billion dollars and so I'm gonna do whatever it takes to get there. As opposed to like, what am I capable of and can I keep squeezing it out?

• 9:59Mark Manson?

  I find that a lot of people have a lot of motivation and drive. They just don't know where to point it.

• 10:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:06Mark Manson?

  They feel like like they don't know what's worth pursuing. And I think this is particularly an issue with our generation and Gen Z. With all the distractions and the devices and everything like it's there's so much noise. That it's hard to know what is actually valuable. Hell, it's hard to know what's actually true.

• 10:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:25Mark Manson?

  To a certain extent. And so I sympathize. I mean, I'm very much the same way. There's a Bukowski quote where he's like, I want to slide in the home plate like broken, burned, destroyed, you know?

• 10:38Speaker 02

  Great quote. I think I think it might be Hemingway.

• 10:41Mark Manson?

  Was it Hemingway?

• 10:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:43Mark Manson?

  One of those old alcoholics.

• 10:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, both fucking great. Bukowski was a second level type of alcoholic. Have you ever listened to his weird one-off poem readings on Spotify? Like caution to the internet before you do it. They're wild.

• 10:56Mark Manson?

  Dude, he would like verbally abuse his audience.

• 10:59Speaker 02

  I've never heard anything like it. I really, I like read some of his favorites, like the poem, So You Want to Be a Writer? I love that Bukowski poem. But then I went down a rabbit hole and was like, huh, I don't know if I should tell people I like this guy.

• 11:10Mark Manson?

  He's a dark guy. Coming back to that drive to like push yourself to get the home plate, giving that, having given everything. What, what does that look like for you? Like what are, what are those missions or causes in your life?

• 11:23Speaker 02

  Well, it does, I'm sure come from a place of some ego that I think I could actually affect the outcome of things that exist in the world, which I'm not entirely sure on, but it'd be fun to try. But first and foremost, the, the whole reason we call the company Contrarian Thinking, because it's awful to spell, it's way too many vowels, like it's a terrible name, is actually because I sort of believed in this mission. Like, how can we get people to question everything, including me, including all of us? I started off as a journalist a million years ago, along the US Mexico border, and I was covering human trafficking and drug smuggling and saw a lot of dark things. And I also saw what happened when we don't have a group of humans questioning things on all sides. And so one of my big missions is can we try to just not even tell

• 12:05Speaker 02

  people what to think or how to think, but just get them thinking. And that is a huge mission for me. And the second thing that I've been obsessed on lately, because we'd like to have kids sometime in the near future, is what are we leaving for them? You know, I'm sure you and I will be fine. Maybe even our kids will be too. But I look at what's out there right now for like young women and young men. I don't have the lived men experience, but it's like, who's the role model here? You know, are you nip tucking your way to 13 different body styles, ala the Kardashians, you know? Are you listening to people who have sex specific podcasts and thinking that that's going to turn out well for decades? So my newest phenomenon is, I think I'm gonna host a little event here in Austin, kind of trying to figure out, what is this

• 12:48Speaker 02

  generation dealing with? Because we got damn lucky. We didn't have iPhones and social media like they did when we were in informative years. And I don't think anybody can say it's not fucking people up immensely. And we have to push back on it. And the only way to push back on it might be social media, which is wild to think about.

• 13:07Mark Manson?

  What was your biggest lesson from covering the human trafficking at the border?

• 13:12Speaker 02

  That money is the ultimate equalizer. That uh it's not actually, you know, my last name is Sanchez. The women who were being brutalized last name were often Sanchez or Juarez or things very close to that. And it wasn't that I was American and they were Mexican. It was just, I had resources, like middle-class American, nothing crazy resources.

• 13:32Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  But I had it and that meant that I would never go into a shallow grave with no headstone on it.

• 13:38Mark Manson?

  And did that influence your decision to go into finance?

• 13:41Speaker 02

  Yep. Otherwise, I would have stayed in in journalism. I was very set on, you know, I went to the Walter Cronkite School for Journalism at ASU because it was one of the top schools. And then, when I covered one particular story about elderly members of society getting left along the US Mexico border because they couldn't cross with their family, you know, they were getting caught, right? And their younger members weren't. And so, and they lived in these hovels, like the the senior care centers along the the border were atrocious and we covered one. And I remember vividly, her name was Carmelita, and she wore this little beanie and she lived on this like cot, couldn't really get up. I mean, no doors or screens on the windows, just an awful place.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  And she lost her family like ten years ago. She'd been there forever. She's kind of starting to lose her wits about her. And I wrote a story about her and it got a bunch of press. And then I went back to give her the awards and some of the cash and this like teddy bear and whatever. And she was like, this is amazing. Now that America knows, you guys are gonna, you're gonna help, right? You're gonna fix it. And I was like a twenty-one-year-old idiot.

• 14:44Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  And so I had no idea what to say to her.

• 14:46Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 14:46Speaker 02

  And so that, I couldn't rectify that.

• 14:49Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 14:49Speaker 02

  And it was like, the only thing that would have actually helped her wasn't awareness, it was cash. And, you know, I didn't have it. And she was never gonna have that in her lifetime and she's since passed. So I think that moment stuck with me.

• 15:01Mark Manson?

  So I I I feel like I'm connecting the dots now. You know, it's this, money's the great equalizer. Go into finance. Oh wait, Goldman Sachs doesn't give a shit about poor Mexicans at the border.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  Lot of direct correlation, really.

• 15:16Mark Manson?

  Uh, let's go straight to the people.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:18Mark Manson?

  Is that, is that the, the path?

• 15:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think I needed to understand, I, I believe the quote, I think it's like, it might be Jordan Peterson where he's like, you know, go get money.

• 15:27Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  Before you change the world.

• 15:28Mark Manson?

  Hmm.

• 15:29Speaker 02

  And I think that's right because money is literally the international language that we all speak.

• 15:34Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 15:34Speaker 02

  And if you want to make a real difference, it's going to be very hard for you to do it counter to somebody who has resources more than you to the tune of a hundred, two hundred, you know, three thousand acts. And so that was my thought. I was like, well, I'm going to go figure out money because if I have enough of it, then I can assert my will on the world. And I think that's what money allows you to do.

• 15:52Mark Manson?

  Hmm.

• 15:52Speaker 02

  It's just an ability for you to push back when somebody pushes on you or vice versa. So I wanted to climb up the rings of corporate finance to understand that. And I'm not naturally math inclined, you know, I was a little peon when I was at Goldman. It wasn't like I was some big, you know, I didn't go that far there. I was there for like less than two years, but I got to see a lot behind the scenes, which event eventually led me to believe that actually none of that stuff is that hard.

• 16:17Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  It's that they create a barrier and a totally different language in order for you and I to not be able to participate. And because of that, we give them all of our money. They take a percentage of it for managing it. And the cycle continues of like the few owning everything increasingly. And so I don't think anybody's inherently evil there at all. I just think perverse incentives lead to perversity.

• 16:39Mark Manson?

  Those institutions were also built at a time where education wasn't easily available, right?

• 16:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:45Mark Manson?

  Like you needed middlemen and you needed like a big conglomerate to, to manage everything for you and of course siphon off some for themselves.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah. But, but I do think you have to at some point, you know, if you can't take control of your financial ownership and you don't actually speak the language of money and you don't understand how it works, how do you ever expect to get rich? And I'm like, that's like when people go on YouTube and they're like drop shipping, you know, make me a hundred thousand dollars in a month. I'm like, it's the totally wrong question.

• 17:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 17:16Speaker 02

  You know, instead you have to actually go understand the whole financial landscape and what all your options are. Become super highly skilled in the thing that seems easiest to you, but is harder to other people. And then go see who will pay you the most for the skills. And after they have paid you a certain amount of money, see if you understand enough to go recreate the skills for yourself somewhere else.

• 17:33Mark Manson?

  Hmm.

• 17:34Speaker 02

  Uh, or invest uh, the money that you've now learned how to make.

• 17:37Mark Manson?

  Yeah. It's funny because the first, say, four years of my career were so scrappy and hard. I distinctly remember, actually, I used to work in, I, my ex-girlfriend supported me. We had this tiny, like, two-bedroom apartment with a roommate and I would work in bed all day. And there were times where I'd fall asleep with my laptop, like, on my stomach. And then I'd wake up in the middle of the night and just like, just keep going.

• 18:03Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 18:05Mark Manson?

  But I remember, you know, having conversations with her and I was completely broke. I was always scrounging to like, give her money for rent and buy a burger. You know, it was really rough. But I remember telling her, I'm like, I like this. Like, I would rather, so fun fact, you and I both worked at State Street.

• 18:23Speaker 02

  Um. Really, in Boston?

• 18:25Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  Oh, that was a weird place, huh?

• 18:27Mark Manson?

  Oh, I hated it.

• 18:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:28Mark Manson?

  I lasted a month. I was like, I gotta get out of here. But yeah, I mean, I, I had, I had done this, like, short stint in the corporate world, absolutely hated my life. And then I was broke for months and months and months. And I was like, I like this. I really like this. And it's funny, because after Subtle Art came out and blew up and, you know, all this stuff happened, there was a dissatisfaction that wasn't there before. And it was really weird because I didn't feel free to express that. You know, it's like, this is, objectively, this is the best thing that's ever happened to me. So I'm not really allowed to be dissatisfied. And it took me years to figure out that I like the scrappiness. Like, I like doing YouTube and not knowing what I'm doing. I like fucking up edits and videos.

• 19:12Mark Manson?

  I like stressing over this podcast and being like, do we have the right format? Is this really, like, is the branding right? Could we change something? Like, I like that. I like feeling like I'm doing something wrong. And it took me a long time to accept that, a long time. I think if you asked young Mark, he would say, He'd say, yeah, I like this, but it's only because I think it's going to pay off in the future.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:34Mark Manson?

  I'm gonna get successful and all this stuff. Whereas old wise Mark understands it, it's just how I'm wired. Like, I need to feel like an underdog. It's it's where I operate optimally.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  Interesting. That's actually a little bit of a superpower.

• 19:49Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  I think, and realizing it, because everybody always says, you know, it's not the destination, it's the journey.

• 19:54Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 19:55Speaker 02

  But everybody focuses on the destination.

• 19:57Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 19:57Speaker 02

  So if you realize that you're wired to actually enjoy the journey, fucking Buddha over here with curly hair. You know, but but also, I think that's something a lot of us aspire to. Like, I find myself a thousand percent falling into the, oh, you know, this video only got that. And then I have to pull myself back and go, what is wrong with you? You know, you are a woman in your thirties, like happily married, worrying about TikTok views. I don't actually worry about TikTok, but YouTube, which is much higher brow, you know?

• 20:24Mark Manson?

  Yeah, right.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  But I I still find myself falling into that sort of hedonic treadmill, for sure.

• 20:32Mark Manson?

  I do too, but I realized I like it.

• 20:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I do, yeah, I do too.

• 20:37Mark Manson?

  I like it, like, I like being like, oh, that video bombed.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  Why?

• 20:41Mark Manson?

  I want, let's figure out why.

• 20:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:42Mark Manson?

  You know, let's figure out why, let's get better.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:44Mark Manson?

  And have you seen The Last Dance, the documentary about Michael Jordan?

• 20:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:48Mark Manson?

  So, you know, he has this almost like psychopathic ability to like take things personally. But but, you know, one of the things they talk about is like he would irrationally interpret things as like personal slights to motivate himself. I think I have a little bit of that. It's not a personal thing. It's not like, you know, oh, Cody said this thing and like, I took that personally. You know, it's not like that, but it's, you know, it's like, we'll work on a piece of content and it'll do well, but it won't do as well as I hoped. Or it won't do well as like this other guy's video. And I'm like, fuck that shit, we're gonna do better, you know, like.

• 21:20Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 21:21Mark Manson?

  And the conventional wisdom would be like, oh, don't compare yourself, like be happy as you are. But it's like, no, I like that. It feels good. I don't get swept up in it. I don't attach my ego to it. It's a game and it's like my favorite game to play.

• 21:37Speaker 02

  I don't know where the world went where we decided that we couldn't have fun doing the thing that we wanted to do for a living.

• 21:43Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  Like, when did that narrative even start? I think that is such a bizarre idea.

• 21:48Mark Manson?

  Fun struggling.

• 21:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 21:50Mark Manson?

  I think that's it. That's it. It's like this, this kind of obsession of removing struggle and challenge from people without realizing that it's like, it's, it's the appropriate struggle or challenge that like makes you feel most alive.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  Oh, it's so true. We were, we were looking at a graph today that was showing from the, I mean, World Economic Forum, but anyway.

• 22:12Speaker 02

  The numbers were basically showing happiness indicators for people who are employed and choose to be employed.

• 22:19Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 22:19Speaker 02

  Employed but don't choose to be, like, wouldn't choose to be employed.

• 22:22Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 22:23Speaker 02

  Then unemployed by choice and then unemployed not by choice. And no surprise, the two groups that are least happy are the two unemployed groups, even if they were there by choice.

• 22:32Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 22:33Speaker 02

  And so, you know, one study doesn't a truth make, but I thought that was so obvious.

• 22:38Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 22:39Speaker 02

  And yet, uh, not common sense at all.

• 22:42Mark Manson?

  Schwarzenegger just came out with a book called Be Useful and it actually, it was the thing that his father told him throughout his life. And I, I just, I, I remember I saw that. I was like, there's so much wisdom in that. And, and it's also coming from all like the psych research that I've done. In psychology, they call it like self-efficacy, self-efficacy of internal locus of control. Like, there's a bunch of different terms of it, but it's basically just like people who feel like they're capable of something. Like you are doing something, you're able to change your environment in a way that is creating value in some way. And it's such a key component of our happiness and wellbeing. It can be as simple as, I don't know, being a garbage man or whatever, but like it, it makes sense to me that employment is so tied to it.

• 23:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. Have you read Arthur Brooks' new book with Oprah?

• 23:29Mark Manson?

  I have not.

• 23:29Speaker 02

  So I was, uh, at a little dinner with Arthur last week and I've been a fan of his for just years. And, uh, it's very seldom do you get somebody who could both. Be at the head of, you know, a conservative Republican movement and best friends with the Dalai Lama and Oprah.

• 23:45Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 23:45Speaker 02

  Like those, those triangles don't mesh.

• 23:47Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 23:48Speaker 02

  And yet, if you've ever met the guy, it makes all the sense in the world. And so anyway, he was talking last week about how the three things that we're missing for this, you know, generation are the three things that, that lead to happiness in his research that he's done at Harvard are basically friends, family, faith, and then a fourth, which is uh, work that serves people.

• 24:08Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 24:08Speaker 02

  In some ways. And like, I thought that was so interesting. He's like, so why are young people unhappy these days? He's like, well, you know, we have thirty percent of youth who thinks that nobody actually knows them. So we have like less true friendships than ever. We have the family nuclear unit sort of under attack with more people having not, not even for any reason that they don't like their family, but left the city or state in which their family lives and then less people determining to have a family than ever.

• 24:36Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 24:36Speaker 02

  And then we have obviously a crisis of faith, you know, lowest traditional secular, uh, you know, religious institutions and, and following of them in, in decades. And now the sort of idea that you shouldn't actually spend that much time at work, that you need work-life balance, that work is just a means to an end, not an end of itself. And so I thought that was fascinating. I'm like, actually, that makes all the sense in the world why we're more, you know, anxious, depressed, unhappy.

• 25:01Mark Manson?

  This is one of those stats that people just don't believe because it kind of goes against their intuition. But if you look at the average hours worked by the American people, it's the lowest it's been in a century.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  Is it really?

• 25:13Mark Manson?

  Yeah, it's people, people work less today than ever. I think it doesn't feel that way for two reasons. One is commutes are longer than ever. And two, because of devices and email and everything, people are still checking email at home. They're getting an email before bed. They're like checking Slack after dinner. So they don't feel like they're checking out. But if you actually look at how many hours are being technically on the clock, it's the lowest it's ever been.

• 25:39Speaker 02

  That's fascinating, but actually tracks.

• 25:42Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 25:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, it's funny, at one of the companies, one of the managers came to me the other day and was like, you know, I'm concerned about delegating this because I feel like a lot of the team is overworked. I'm like, pause. Why? And he's like, well, you know, I think they have a lot going on. There's a lot of work. I'm like, let's categorize because words are important. Words are important. Words mean things.

• 26:00Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 26:00Speaker 02

  Like definitions, it seems like we've forgotten definitions for words. And so then we get confused. So I'm like, okay, what do you mean they're overworked? He's like, well, they seem like they have a lot going on and they're overwhelmed. I'm like, is anybody in the office before eight AM or after six? When was the last time you saw that? He's like, well, you know, not exactly, but they're working from here. I'm like, let's look at vacation days taken.

• 26:20Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 26:20Speaker 02

  Oh, it's like healthy two to four weeks on average from people. I'm like, uh, let's work at work. Like, did we, are we putting more on individuals than we ever have before? Or do we actually have more people spread out? And by the end of it, he was like, oh, I guess by all categorical measures, there is not this, this problem. I'm thoughtful about that lately, like not even letting your team say the words. I'm overwhelmed. It's like,

• 26:43Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  Have you properly prioritized? Like, and how do we work through that as opposed to labeling yourself as an emotional state?

• 26:50Mark Manson?

  Yeah. So this is, I see this topic is coming up a lot more. So in psychology, it's called the prevalence inflation effect. Which, and it's particularly important in relation to mental health. So there are a couple of new studies that just came out in the last year. The, the big one that happened was in Australia. They took a thousand teens. They gave them, uh, something called DBT therapy, which basically teaches you a bunch of good psychological concepts, helps you deal with struggles, anxieties, et cetera. And then they took a thousand teens and just let them, you know, control group, let them be, be whatever. The teens that were exposed to the DBT, which is a, a well-studied protocol, like has got decades and decades of data behind that it helps people.

• 27:33Mark Manson?

  The teens that were exposed to the DBT actually turned up with worse mental health afterwards. And the theory is that, you know, it's like your knee hurts. So you like Google knee pain. And it's like, oh my God, I have cancer. Like you start reading stuff, you're like, I have that. Oh my God, I have that. Oh Jesus, no, I have that. The human mind has this tendency of like, whatever you're exposed to, you relate it to yourself. And the theory is that the more we tell young people, oh, you're struggling with anxiety. Oh, you have self-worth issues. Oh, you're neurodivergent. You're all these things. They start looking for experiences that justify that definition of themselves, which it's just naturally human, right?

• 28:16Mark Manson?

  But then, once you identify with that, once you start telling yourself, oh, I am an anxious person, or I do have low self-worth, your experience matches to justify that belief. Like, you start looking for experiences to continue to justify that self-definition. So it actually backfires. There's almost like such a thing as too much awareness of mental health. There's like a threat, there's like a Goldilocks zone of you want to be aware enough to not just be oblivious to your problems, but you also don't want to dwell in your problems so that you don't accidentally look for mental health issues without realizing it.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  That makes so much sense. Yeah, I don't have any of the psychological underopinions for it, but you know, you can see it.

• 28:59Mark Manson?

  I imagine the work-life balance thing makes sense to me because it is such a hot topic. It's everywhere, you know, there's on social media, there's stuff going viral all the time of people being like, I'm overworked and blah, blah, blah. Yet you go to the data and it's like average work hours are, at worst, they're the same, if not lower than they used to be.

• 29:21Speaker 02

  Well, you know what the good part about all of this is? If you are a performer, there is no better time in history, I think, than right now to perform because the bar is set so incredibly low.

• 29:33Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 29:33Speaker 02

  I mean, if you say you're gonna do a thing, you do the thing. If you ask for feedback when you mess up and then change according to said feedback and then continue to try to learn more so that you can succeed, you're the top of the food chain.

• 29:48Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 29:49Speaker 02

  You know, I saw the stat the other day that there's never been more companies created than since 2020 on a total basis, but also like per population basis. So we've had this massive inflation of the number of companies created. Simultaneously, it's never been harder to create a profitable business. Probably because proliferation of the internet, right? It's so, there's so much less of a moat to starting a business, but also because I think we, you know, we're starting to lose that ability to.

• 30:19Speaker 02

  To to be resilient, to keep going through a really difficult time and and succeed despite the odds. But if you're like a hard charger out there wanting things out of life, if you can limit distractions and you can continue to get a little bit better continuously and execute, man, you are ahead of the curve.

• 30:36Mark Manson?

  For sure. Why aren't there more women like you in the business world out there, I guess, being a role model, but also just being there? I mean, like, I mean, you you worked at Goldman Sachs, I imagine there were not a whole lot of women there.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:51Mark Manson?

  Um, in the creator space, especially in the make money kind of business advice space, you're the only woman that I'm aware of. Why is that, do you think?

• 31:02Speaker 02

  Something I'd like to change.

• 31:03Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 31:03Speaker 02

  I mean, like sixty five percent of our audience is men. And I'm I'm agnostic. I don't care what you got between your legs. Like, I hope if you're a good person, you make more money. That's awesome. I don't know. I mean, I I do know that there's this weird phenomenon that a lot of the women that I see that are talking about business are talking talking about like touchy feely nonsense. You know, it's like manifest your wedding first million, which like, I don't know, maybe.

• 31:25Speaker 02

  That works for me. Like, I don't know.

• 31:29Mark Manson?

  If only it were that easy.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's just not great. Maybe we're at the we're at the beginning of it. You know, there was that whole movement there for a while, which was sort of like the girl boss movement, which like

• 31:40Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 31:40Speaker 02

  Sofia Omarosa sort of

• 31:42Mark Manson?

  That's true.

• 31:42Speaker 02

  Like, commercialized. But I think what happened with that is it became, like, why is it called girl boss? Like, why doesn't matter what your sex is?

• 31:50Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 31:50Speaker 02

  And so I think almost women, we shot ourselves in the foot because we made it about the fact that we were wo- women.

• 31:55Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 31:55Speaker 02

  You know, you don't hear, you're not like Mark Moss, dude. You know, you're just like, no, I'm Mark.

• 32:01Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 32:02Speaker 02

  I think the biggest issue that I keep coming back to is that women just need to be talking about how to win and succeed no matter what, as opposed to that we are are female. Because I think that actually decriminalizes us, and I think it makes men shut down, too.

• 32:17Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  Like, I don't think men want to hear about why you won because you were a female or didn't win because you're we're a little tired of that narrative.

• 32:25Mark Manson?

  Well, it also shuts us out.

• 32:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 32:27Mark Manson?

  Like, I remember my wife was a a member of a, there was a group in New York that was like for like female business owners.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:35Mark Manson?

  And she joined it and she was really excited about it. And it fell into that trap a little bit where every time she went to an event there, it was all about women's empowerment and equality and, you know, all this stuff. And she's like, I just want to talk about business, you know, like I've got business problems and I really like, I want to talk to other smart business people. And she ended up leaving the group and I believe that the group ended up failing eventually. But yeah, I, I think it's, there's something as a man, I mean, obviously I support her and I support women in general in business. But like, there's something that there's like a turn off about that. It's like, well, I don't know. It's a, it feels like it's about something else. It's not about, about the money or the work anymore.

• 33:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, I mean, if you ever went, I remember I went to one, remember that thing, the wing? Did you ever, it was like, it was like WeWork for women, like ultra destined to die. You know, WeWork didn't work and it was open for everybody, like you open one just for women.

• 33:31Mark Manson?

  And cut out half the customer base.

• 33:32Speaker 02

  Great idea. Let me give you a hundred million dollars in funding.

• 33:35Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 33:37Speaker 02

  And I remember I went to one of them and it was so ludicrous. The whole thing was pink and I like pink, pink's cool, but like, come on. And then the second thing is there was like a room over to the side and they were like, feel free if you would like to go into the crochet room at any point. I'm like, get out of fucking town. Why is there a crochet room in here? This is so silly. And so I do think there's going to be a next generation of, of women who are just trying to win.

• 34:00Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 34:00Speaker 02

  And hopefully do it in a way where, you know, I, I turn down speaking gigs if they say, uh, we're looking for a female CEO to speak.

• 34:08Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 34:09Speaker 02

  I go, I don't, you know, listen, if it's that you need a CEO to speak and you think I'm the fit, awesome. But like, I don't do the whole talking about how me having one type of genitalia led to some different outcome in my business. I don't actually think it's relevant.

• 34:22Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 34:22Speaker 02

  And I think it's super victim mentality, you know? Like I've had a huge benefit to being a woman in a lot of situations. Sure. Was there? Was there the ass grab? Did I get shut out of the nineteenth hole sometimes, you know? Did I have inappropriate behaviors at work? Certainly, but also I didn't look like every other Tom, Dick and Larry. So like I had a win that way too.

• 34:41Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  I don't know what the answer is, but you know what's fascinating? I've been obsessing on this lately, like how to get more women interested in business? In a way that like still allows them to be a wife and a mom and feminine. Like, I don't think we have to divorce those two things.

• 34:56Mark Manson?

  Totally.

• 34:56Speaker 02

  I don't think you have to be filled with testosterone. You could just like happen to be in business too. And then I was looking at at creator sizes. And if you look at the biggest creators out there, there's a huge cap at business overall. Like some of the biggest creators in business, I don't know, let's say like um Instagram or like five, maybe eight million.

• 35:14Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 35:14Speaker 02

  Uh subscribe. You could say like Jay Shetty, which is like sixteen, but he's not really business. So like the biggest business creators are like five or eight million on Instagram.

• 35:22Mark Manson?

  Gary Vee or something like that.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think he's maybe like eight million or something like that.

• 35:25Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  So and then you look at what I'll call mainstream businesses. So things like or mainstream creators. So like the Kardashians, like. What I don't three hundred million or something like that?

• 35:36Mark Manson?

  For sure.

• 35:36Speaker 02

  And then you look at beauty creators and they're like tens and tens and tens of millions. And then fashion creators, tens and tens, and then fitness creators, tens and tens and tens. And so I think the other thing may just be business is actually a tiny little sector that very few people care about, actually.

• 35:50Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 35:51Speaker 02

  And I think it's because like what's more entertaining to watch, like a really funny little comedic video or like one on a P and L, eh, you know?

• 35:58Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 35:58Speaker 02

  And I think the same thing with beauty as well. It's like a lot of these people think that business is the product. So they're like, I want to have a beauty business. So they're like talking about lipstick or whatever. They don't realize the product isn't actually the business. Like you could substitute lipstick for liquid death for jeans. And if you understood the underlying business, you speak the same language.

• 36:18Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  So I'm curious to see if there's a way to connect the mainstream between the two.

• 36:23Mark Manson?

  The interesting thing about that is that Gary Vee probably has more money than all those people, right?

• 36:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:28Mark Manson?

  And has a bigger business than all those people.

• 36:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:31Mark Manson?

  Uh minus the Kardashians, but.

• 36:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're pretty big.

• 36:36Mark Manson?

  One of the things that I've noticed lately and concerns me a little bit, you know, in my space, the kind of the personal development world, it used to be back in the day, like eighties and nineties, women and men consume very different personal development content. So women, it was more the touchy feely woo woo relationship stuff.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  Like Dear Sally or something?

• 36:55Mark Manson?

  Yeah, or if you think about like The Secret and Oprah.

• 36:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:59Mark Manson?

  Whereas men, it was more, you know, it was more like make more money and be more successful and power and all this stuff. In the 2000s and 2010s, the audiences kind of merged. I actually think people like me and James Clear and a couple others like kind of caught a special moment where I remember going into my publisher and they asked me for the demographics of my audience. And I was like, oh, it's 50 50. And they were like, what? And I was like, yeah, it's 50 50 men, women. And like their jaws dropped. They said, nobody in self-help has 50 50. Like, that's just absolutely unheard of. There was like 10 years, maybe, where men and women were kind of consuming the same thing. It was all, you know, I guess the early days of social media or something. We were like

• 37:43Mark Manson?

  the first movers. But what I'm noticing is that they're splitting again. And I'm slowly seeing my audience become more male dominated. And there are people in the space that I talk to all the time, and they're slowly seeing their audiences become more female dominated.

• 37:58Speaker 02

  Are those people typically women?

• 38:00Mark Manson?

  No.

• 38:01Speaker 02

  Men? Well, interesting.

• 38:02Mark Manson?

  And it's like they are drifting. And as a response, they're, they're starting to hammer up more on relationship content. They're starting to talk about manifesting. I'm kind of like, bro, what are you, what are you doing? And it's like, I don't know.

• 38:17Speaker 02

  Just light my candles.

• 38:23Mark Manson?

  It's so, and I think this is happening kind of on a broader cultural level. There was like a recent. Survey that came out, it was a little bit worrying that showed political beliefs between the two genders and how

• 38:32Speaker 02

  Why, who put, I saw that, that was like American, the American Enterprise Society or something?

• 38:37Mark Manson?

  Something like that. And it's just completely divergent, especially at the lower

• 38:41Speaker 02

  Like, sub thirty.

• 38:42Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah. It's like, men are becoming, young men are becoming way more conservative and young women are becoming way more liberal. And that is bad. Like, I don't even know where that takes us. But maybe it's something, something with the algorithms, but the technology is getting so good at serving us up things that we relate to, that it, I think, maybe it's unintentionally closing us off into these demographic bubbles in a way that didn't happen before. You know, before it happened with like ideological bubbles. Now it's getting so good, it's like demographic bubbles. And like, that's even worse in a lot of ways. Because it's, you know, like, if you're a Latina woman, now you're just being exposed to Latina women. And if you're like a white dude, you're just being exposed to white dudes. And like, that, that's not good for anybody. And

• 39:26Mark Manson?

  so yeah, I worry about that. I don't know where that's going.

• 39:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's also so shallow. Can you imagine if the most defining characteristic about you is how you choose to have sex, what skin color you are, and whether you have something that protrudes or inverts between your legs? Like, so uninteresting.

• 39:43Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 39:43Speaker 02

  And so, I find that, I think you have to self-select and push back. And, and I'm not sure what the answer is to that.

• 39:53Mark Manson?

  Social media is really bad at handling complexity, and it's really bad at handling ambiguity. And I think in-person interactions, like, we are naturally adapted to handle those things, right? So it's like, if we're having a conversation, and we kind of disagree about something, or I say something that's a little weird, like, we can read each other's body language, we can sense each other's emotions, you can kind of figure out like, oh, well, he probably didn't mean it that way, you know, he's, he's a good guy, you know, let's just change the subject, or whatever. It's, we kind of naturally default to recognizing that people are multifaceted and

• 40:29Mark Manson?

  One little uncomfortable thing doesn't necessarily like demolish the entire interaction, whereas online that it's the opposite. You know, it's like the second somebody says something that makes you uncomfortable that you or that you don't like, you're like, well, fuck that person. And you know, it's like mute, block, delete. And of course, those like those little micro communications, facial expressions, body language, tonality, like those don't get conveyed either. People are viewing you out of context. And so they're projecting their own personal context onto you when they watch you or read you. And oftentimes their personal context is not is not a charitable one. And and so we tend to easily see the worst of people or assume the worst of people online.

• 41:14Mark Manson?

  And I don't know what we do about that. You know, it's a genie. You can't put it back in the bottle. I've just kind of defaulted to like talking about this as much as possible, like just educating people as much as possible so that we can kind of adapt ourselves. You know, I see stuff on Twitter, pisses me off. And I just try to remind myself, these people are complicated, they're complex. This is literally two sentences. My like, these two sentences are my only exposure to this person, you know? So let's just try not to jump to conclusions or make assumptions.

• 41:43Speaker 02

  I think that's right. I think, you know, if you want to win in today's society, you have to limit distractions. And what's the ultimate distraction? Emotional hijacking, because you really can't do anything else when you're emotionally hyped.

• 41:54Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 41:55Speaker 02

  And so where's the best place to get emotionally hyped? Well, on the internet where people are posting things without really much reciprocal effect, often anonymously.

• 42:03Mark Manson?

  Yep.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  And so Twitter is an amazing place to go get super distracted, upset, and then project that on to the rest of society and lose your day.

• 42:11Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 42:11Speaker 02

  I do think there's a real benefit in being able to say, I just shall not allow myself to be triggered. While everyone else on the internet is allowing themselves to get upset by somebody unless some human says to my face, you are a fucking piece of shit and I'm going to kick you in the leg. I'm not, you know, if you won't say it to my face, how am I going to let that bother me?

• 42:29Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 42:29Speaker 02

  Because it takes actually such an amount of like imagination to put together a series of events about what a person thinks of you based on something that's happening on the internet. Now, I think it's, it's really hard when it's directed at you. Like you've had this many times in your career, you know, where you say something and somebody comes at you and you can't have done this for 16 years and not have people pretty much say everything bad about you ever, I think. Like, are you ever surprised anymore?

• 42:56Mark Manson?

  No.

• 42:56Speaker 02

  No, right? Like, everything under the sun has been said to me, and I've only been doing this for like three years. So let's, you know, bring it on. But, uh, but I think for the average person, like, what a fun experiment. Could you just have an anti-trigger experiment where every time you do that, you just go and watch a little snippet of your favorite Disney movie instead and try not to get amped?

• 43:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah, or even try to imagine the most charitable interpretation of the thing that just triggered you.

• 43:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:21Mark Manson?

  And I think that's a good mental exercise. It's also very hard to do.

• 43:25Speaker 02

  Like, you know what I always tell my husband? Do you get mad when you're driving? Like, and somebody cuts you off?

• 43:29Mark Manson?

  Hmm, yeah, sometimes, yeah.

• 43:31Speaker 02

  It doesn't really bother me for some reason. I think it's like, my husband's same, like, he just assumes that person, I don't know.

• 43:37Mark Manson?

  Biggest piece of shit in the world.

• 43:39Speaker 02

  Total disrespect, also hates him, you know? And, and so, you know, and he gets so annoyed because I just always go, I just assume that they're, they're birthing a child in the backseat, every single time.

• 43:50Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 43:50Speaker 02

  And that's the old adage, but for some reason, it helps me. I'm like, eh, they're probably super late, you know, they're birthing a child in the backseat. They've just found out they got cancer. I don't know.

• 43:59Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  And so if I think that way, it never really bothers me. I'm like, no, I kind of expect everybody on the street to drive like an asshole. And if they don't, I'm relatively, I'm happy about it. And so maybe there's a way for us to do that on the internet, too, as opposed to what we're doing right now, which even our, our team has kind of done it a few times. Like, we've seen something crazy on the internet, and then we've gone, let's have a reaction to the crazy.

• 44:21Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 44:21Speaker 02

  And then that reaction to the crazy kind of hypes something that is probably super fringe anyways, and normalizes it in some way. And then there's a reaction on the other side about, how could you think this is crazy? Because in fact, we think this is super normal.

• 44:36Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 44:36Speaker 02

  And so instead of me countering it, I've just added noise instead of signal.

• 44:42Mark Manson?

  Yeah. I interviewed Ryan Holiday yesterday. We talked about this quite a bit, about avoiding the, the temptation of The clickbait, the low hanging fruit, not platforming certain ideas or people because you know it's going to get a ton of clicks. And he and I both feel very strongly about that. And I also think that there's something to both of our longevity, because I've been around long enough to see the big new thing turn into the big horrible thing and watch people torpedo their own careers, you know, dying on a hill that does not deserve to be died on. So I just try to remember that. Like in this business that we're in, you really need to pick your battles carefully. And it's funny because you'll even get hate

• 45:25Mark Manson?

  for that. Like, I will get angry emails, be like, why aren't you talking about this political issue? Why aren't you, why aren't you angry about, you know, this politician said this thing? And I'm like, because in two weeks, the, you know, the other guy's going to say something else. And then the whole narrative is going to change. And, you know, new info is going to come out and everything's going to be different. And like, I'm not going to fall into that trap. I try to stay with stuff that's like, very timeless. The stuff that's not going to change.

• 45:50Speaker 02

  It is funny to see the cycles too, isn't it? Like, I even saw it with boring businesses. So when I first started talking about them, people were like, this is dumb. Like, this is super dumb.

• 46:01Mark Manson?

  Car wash? What the fuck?

• 46:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Laundromat? Like, those things don't make any money. Nobody uses them anymore. I'm like, I don't know what, like, do you want to see my tax return?

• 46:10Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 46:11Speaker 02

  And then it really started to pick up. I think not just because of me, but, you know, it just got sort of normalized. Then there started to be lots of case studies about people succeeding with it. Then perfect inflection point, you know, we had sort of the Silicon Valley implosion over the last two years, where, you know, they're not funding as many companies anymore. And so now, you know, then it just hit like, peak boring business time. Where like, there's memes everywhere you can find about Harvard grads going out and trying to buy a plumbing company and then, you know, hating their lives. And so I think it'll come down again. And I don't know what the next thing will be, but I can definitely start to tell when the, the main thing is starting to become a meme.

• 46:51Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 46:51Speaker 02

  You know, it's just moved a little bit past it. And now, it doesn't matter for me and my portfolio, because car washes don't care how you feel about them on the internet. They still make money, which is why I like them. But I do think it's important to not tie yourself to those, to those trends.

• 47:07Mark Manson?

  You have to be careful and you also want some flexibility. And the ability to pivot, you know, when things do change or when the zeitgeist shifts. One thing that I definitely feel or have noticed is that the the make money spaces online tend to blow up during economic hardship.

• 47:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:27Mark Manson?

  And they tend to not go away, but they recede a lot during boom times. And we are definitely in a time, you know, pandemic, post pandemic, a lot of economic hardship, a lot of layoffs over the last few years.

• 47:41Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 47:41Mark Manson?

  Particularly layoffs in sectors where there are really smart, educated people.

• 47:45Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 47:46Mark Manson?

  Who are ambitious. And so I personally believe that there's a correlation there of, you know, you've got all these like smart Stanford grads who used to work for Google or Facebook sitting around being like, fuck, how am I going to make money? And eventually, you know, the market will correct or equilibrium will hit and we'll move on to the next thing. So, you know, it's kind of like surfing, like you just always got to keep an eye on like where the waves going and make sure like position yourself accordingly.

• 48:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:13Mark Manson?

  Uh, last question. What do you give too many fucks about and you wish you gave fewer?

• 48:20Speaker 02

  I mean, there's the standard answer, which is I probably care more than I should about what people I respect think of me. Not generally, but I do, I do very much care if people that I think are smart and thoughtful and strategic see something that I'm doing and think, you know, it's unethical or I don't agree with it or it's beneath you, that bothers me.

• 48:48Mark Manson?

  Has that happened?

• 48:49Speaker 02

  Oh, for sure. I mean, in the beginning of of when I was a creator, it's less common now, but when they were like, you know, isn't this kind of beneath you doing this stuff on the internet? Like if you had really.

• 48:58Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 48:59Speaker 02

  You know, if you had really leaned into, you you could have built your own huge private equity company as opposed to talking about it on the internet with all of these people.

• 49:08Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 49:09Speaker 02

  And so that that does still bother me somehow. I still am in a search for.

• 49:16Speaker 02

  You know, credentials from the people that I care about. And I think it's a little bit of a female thing and an immigrant thing. It's like, well, let's make sure I get the MBA from Georgetown. Let's go to Goldman. Let's get the certification.

• 49:27Mark Manson?

  Build the resume, yeah.

• 49:28Speaker 02

  Right. It's very silly. And so I remember I I met once Astro Teller, the head of Google X's program. So he, you know, fascinating guy and was tasked with coming up with crazy ideas for Google, right? And he had this idea that I don't know if he still does, but he did it years ago. Where he said, one of the most impactful things I've done in my career is outside of my office. And thus a bunch of other people picked it up around the office. I have a resume, not of all the things that I've done, but all the things I've failed at. And so I've tried to, I keep a list. I don't, I'm, I'm not quite as evolved as Astro is, but I I keep a list of all my failures to remind me that that they're not going to kill me.

• 50:09Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 50:09Speaker 02

  And then in fact, people probably think about me so much less than I could ever even imagine.

• 50:14Mark Manson?

  They do.

• 50:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. So like, nobody cares and we'll forget your name.

• 50:19Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 50:19Speaker 02

  You know, two to 10 to definitely 50 years.

• 50:23Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 50:23Speaker 02

  And so that's the truth. You know, if I was to look back to to young Cody again, or anybody out there in their twenties or or thirties, it's like, man, nobody actually really cares that much. It seems so important. It's probably not. And last I checked, you and I aren't curing cancer or saving the world. And so like, it'll be fine.

• 50:43Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 50:43Speaker 02

  And the worst thing that we can do will probably never take a life or, you know, cost us our life.

• 50:48Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  And my husband, because he's a former military guy, that's always his line. When I'm stressed about something, he's like, is anybody gonna die? And I'm like, no, nobody's gonna die. I'm in a spreadsheet, you know, it's formatted incorrectly. Like, so silly. But that's where my fucks lay.

• 51:04Mark Manson?

  Interesting. The irony there is that when people are like, thinking that what you're doing is not a good idea. They're like, oh, that seems that YouTube, what? You know, the irony is. All the big opportunities are like that.

• 51:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:21Mark Manson?

  Most people don't see them. And so most people are gonna think you're a little bit crazy for going all in on them, which sometimes they're right.

• 51:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:29Mark Manson?

  You know, but.

• 51:30Speaker 02

  What's yours too many fucks these days?

• 51:32Mark Manson?

  My too many fucks? I'm having trouble relinquishing control and delegating. It's really hard for me. I'm slowly getting better, but yeah, I don't know. It's it's it. I recognize too that it's completely irrational. I mean, in some cases, people in my team can do it better than I can. But it's there's just something of like, if if I don't see it and know how it's being done, then it's I'm not gonna like be able to sleep at night or something. And I definitely need to get over that.

• 51:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a really good one, though.

• 52:01Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  That's a that's I feel like that's a common one for creatives, too. Because at the end of the day, it's your name and it's your face on it.

• 52:07Mark Manson?

  Absolutely.

• 52:08Speaker 02

  You know, and there's very few things that are like this.

• 52:10Mark Manson?

  Mm hmm.

• 52:11Speaker 02

  In the world. It's also sometimes useful to just say to that part of yourself, that's reasonable, actually.

• 52:17Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 52:18Speaker 02

  That's reasonable. Like, I don't want somebody to edit a video and then all of a sudden there's something in there that I would never ever do.

• 52:24Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 52:25Speaker 02

  And they think that I did.

• 52:26Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 52:26Speaker 02

  So it's it's rational, but definitely limited.

• 52:30Mark Manson?

  Yeah, for sure. Cool. Thank you, Cody.

• 52:33Speaker 02

  My pleasure. This is fun.

• 52:36Speaker 02

  Thanks, dude.