How to Be a Great Friend, Para-Social Relationships, and Why You Shouldn't Die Alone

The quality of your life often comes down to the quality of the relationships you have. That’s why we’re giving a huge f*ck about friendship this week. While the benefits of having good friends are pretty obvious, the cost of maintaining friendships is often overlooked by a lot of people. We dive into that, plus some advice on when you should and shouldn’t cut off people in your life, and how friends and romantic partners really impact our happiness. Check it out. Here’s the paper we discuss:People perceive parasocial relationships to be effective at fulfilling emotional needs CHAPTERS Chapters 00:00:00 Mark’s Halloween Costume 00:01:34 The F*ck of the Week: How to Be a Better Friend 00:20:48 Brilliant or Bullsh*t: Cutting Off Parents, Family, or Friends 00:36:01 Q&A: Can You Be Happy Without Close Friends? Romantic Partners? ⇨ Sign up for my newsletter, Your Next Breakthrough. It will help make you a less awful person: ⁠⁠⁠⁨https://markmanson.net/breakthrough⁩⁠⁠⁠ ⇨ Get clarity on what actually matters. Try Purpose, Mark's AI mentor app that learns your patterns, challenges your blind spots, and helps you take action. Get started at ⁠⁠⁠⁨https://bit.ly/4w46FMH⁠⁠⁠ FOLLOW MARK Mark's IG: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/markmanson⁠ Solved IG: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/solvedpodcast/⁠ Twitter: ⁠https://x.com/markmanson⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/markmanson/⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@IAmMarkManson Theme Song: Icarus Lives by @Periphery , used with permission from Periphery.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mark Manson?

  I think I know my Halloween costume, Drew. We were just joking about it before we went live. I think I'm gonna be a windsock. Go stand in front of a car dealership.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  You got the frame for it, yeah.

• 0:10Mark Manson?

  You know, since I lost all the weight, I'm like shockingly lanky.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  The wind's gonna blow you around, yeah, yeah.

• 0:16Mark Manson?

  You know what I did last year? So I had this giant broccoli costume that we used for one of the YouTube videos.

• 0:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:22Mark Manson?

  And I put that on and I looked absolutely absurd, just this massive, like, two-meter-tall broccoli walking around. And what I really wanted to do, because we get, in our neighborhood here, we get a lot of kids coming to the house. I tried to convince Fernanda to do this. I was like, I want you to cook a ton of broccoli. So like, instead of like giving the kids candy.

• 0:42Speaker 01

  No, you didn't.

• 0:43Mark Manson?

  What we'll do is I'll like, I'll open the doors a giant broccoli and then I'll hand them a giant plate full of broccoli. And I thought this was hysterical. I was like, this is too fun. Like, we're gonna record this. It's gonna be, it's gonna go viral on TikTok. Anyway, she beat it.

• 1:00Speaker 01

  You didn't even try it.

• 1:01Mark Manson?

  My broccoli dreams were destroyed in the cradle.

• 1:04Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:04Mark Manson?

  They never, uh, maybe this year.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  You would have traumatized some kids. I think you better not do that.

• 1:10Mark Manson?

  There's still hope, Drew. There's still hope.

• 1:12Speaker 01

  It's like, that's as bad as like handing out toothbrushes or something like that. Like, that's worse, actually. There's some steamed broccoli. What the fuck?

• 1:21Mark Manson?

  Steamed broccoli served by a broccoli.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  It's the Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck Podcast with your host, Mark Manson.

• 1:34Mark Manson?

  Anyway, what are we, uh, what are we giving a fuck about today?

• 1:38Speaker 01

  Oh, Mark.

• 1:39Mark Manson?

  Or not giving a fuck about? What are we giving, what's, what's happening?

• 1:42Speaker 01

  We're, we're giving a fuck this week. I'm giving a fuck anyway about, about friends.

• 1:46Mark Manson?

  Friendship.

• 1:47Speaker 01

  Friendship. That's right. We've talked about this a little bit before.

• 1:50Mark Manson?

  You just flew back to Colorado.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  I did. I did.

• 1:53Mark Manson?

  For dinner.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  I, yeah, so I've been splitting my time between, you know, LA and Colorado. And, uh, I was out here and there was an anniversary dinner, um, for some friends of mine back home. And I, I took a flight back. I didn't even ask you. I was like, I'm gonna ask for forgiveness rather than permission on this one.

• 2:08Mark Manson?

  I was hurt.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10Mark Manson?

  I don't think you really cared, but. Yeah, I was like, oh, you left?

• 2:14Speaker 01

  It got me, you know, I was, I was, uh, I was talking with some people and I was like, yeah, I flew back and it was like a two hour dinner that we had on a Friday night.

• 2:23Mark Manson?

  I'm gonna be honest, like when you told me, uh, like an anniversary dinner, I, I thought it was like your parents 50th or something. I'm like, oh, this must be a, a big deal. The fact that you literally got on a plane to, uh, attend a dinner for two hours. Two things, one, you are a much better friend than I am. Hands down, bar none. But two, I mean, it's, it's given, you know, sitting at LAX for hours, dealing, dealing with the airline bullshit. Not to mention the, the, uh, you know, the money, like the cost and everything. So my question to you is, was it worth it? Like, how often do you do things like this?

• 3:06Speaker 01

  I mean, I, I.

• 3:08Mark Manson?

  And is it worth it? Does it pay off?

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Okay, is it worth it? Yes, it was.

• 3:12Mark Manson?

  If you're a psychopath like me and purely looks at human interaction as a, as transactional, is it worth it?

• 3:20Speaker 01

  It was worth it, but you're, you're right. There was a lot of that, like, I was like, oh my, I mean, I slept like shit last week and I was just, it was the end of the week and, you know, we had a long week and going to LAX is the last thing you want to do, you know, on a, on a Friday. And I was just like, oh my God. I was even texting my friends, like, yeah, I'm really tired. I'm sorry if I'm not, whatever. As soon as I got to the dinner, everything just like, it was a beautiful evening. They were able to open the doors at the restaurant, open the windows at the restaurant. It was beautiful. We had, we sat, it was a small group of people. We sat for a few hours and just, yeah, and that was worth it.

• 3:53Mark Manson?

  So it was worth it.

• 3:54Speaker 01

  Absolutely worth it. It was.

• 3:56Mark Manson?

  It's funny because I, I imagine most people wouldn't do something like, especially in this day and age.

• 4:03Mark Manson?

  You know, maybe like 40, 30, 40 years ago, but like, I don't know. Like that, it is kind of unimaginable.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Well, um, I mean, here's the thing is that, you know, I don't, I'm single right now. I don't have kids. I don't have like real big obligations to anyone else but myself. And so I put.

• 4:28Mark Manson?

  No obligations.

• 4:30Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, I have a flexible job.

• 4:33Mark Manson?

  Flexible working schedule.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  Before I was rudely cut off. So I have a lot of things working in my favor. That allows me to do these kind of things.

• 4:43Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Right? Sure. Of course. But there is also a cost associated with maintaining these relationships that I've decided to invest in.

• 4:52Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  And yeah, to me, it's worth it.

• 4:55Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  It's absolutely worth it. Now, the cost thing too, I had a whole bunch of airline miles, so it really actually didn't cost me money to do that. I mean, there's little travel expenses I gotta pile on top of that or whatever, and I had to use those miles. But I, and I understand not everybody has that, that access or that, that, that. They don't have the privileges around that.

• 5:15Mark Manson?

  Sure, sure.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  Sure, I get that. But that said, it's just, it's something that I've chosen to give a fuck about is my friends.

• 5:22Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  And I mean, I find it admirable because I feel like this is something.

• 5:29Mark Manson?

  It's funny because you often hear, like, there are people who choose to invest very heavily in like a romantic relationship. There are people who invest very heavily in like a professional.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:40Mark Manson?

  Opportunity or professional relationship. It, at least in our culture, I mean, this is probably, it's probably different in some other parts of the world, but like, investing, making that choice of like, I am going to highly prioritize my friendships. And really go, no pun intended, the extra mile.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:03Mark Manson?

  For them, I think is not only rare today, but it like, I do find it really interesting. And, and maybe like more of us should be doing. Like, I definitely, like, this is an area of my life where I'm like, I probably should invest more in my friendships. Like, I'm, I'm a workaholic, I'm a homebody.

• 6:23Mark Manson?

  Like I, I, I sometimes struggle to just like follow up with people with a text, you know, eh, much less like get on a fucking plane and go to their anniversary. So this is definitely an area of my life that I, I wish I gave more fucks or I was better at giving fucks.

• 6:40Mark Manson?

  So I, and it is a rare thing. Like I don't know anybody else who does stuff like that regularly.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And you ask if I, if I do it, I, I've done, I've gotten on a plane to go see friends plenty of times. Yeah. Throughout my adult life, I've done this and even like there was times I didn't have much money and I was still like, you know what? Screw it. I'm going to go do this. A wedding that's halfway across the country or, or more. Yeah. I've done that. And to me it's just like, yeah, cause that's what you do. Yeah. That is what like to me is so self evident. Like if you want, if you want to like nurture these friendships, you have to nurture these friendships, right? Yeah. I think a lot of people, you know, it's like, oh, sorry. I'm in LA and I, you know, I've got work stuff going on, can't make it. To me, that's kind of like, well, then you can't really complain about not having friends in that situation.

• 7:26Mark Manson?

  Do you ever run into, cause sometimes like I will feel inspired and like want to reach out or like, you know, maybe I'll like pop back to New York for a friend's thing or go see somebody, you know, it's like so, so and so's birthday or whatever. But I don't know, like it's, especially if I haven't seen somebody in a couple of years, haven't talked to them a whole lot. Like, I don't know. Sometimes I worry. I'm like, well, is it going to be weird?

• 7:51Speaker 01

  I've gotten over that. Okay. I, I, I just go for it now. Anytime that comes up for me, I since I just shoot somebody a text. Like anytime I start thinking about somebody and that, that's been more recent. I think anytime that pops up, I'll be like, hey, just was just thinking about this thing that we did or whatever, a while back. How's, how's it going? I don't hesitate with that as much anymore. Okay. For sure.

• 8:11Mark Manson?

  What, what would you say is like the, the Drew Bernie? Principles of being a good friend or like fostering good friendships.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  Uh, number one is showing up.

• 8:20Mark Manson?

  Show up.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  It is, it's showing up. And I was, I was actually talking with my dad about this not too long ago. And uh, he went to like a, a funeral or something that was within the family. And it was kind of like, um, not like immediate family, you know, it was a little bit removed and he showed up and people were like, oh, it's good to see you. Kind of surprised we saw you. And he's like, what are you, what are you talking about?

• 8:39Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  This is what we do. We show up. And I think I just, from a, a younger age, it was like, you just show up for people.

• 8:44Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  That's rule number one, right there.

• 8:47Mark Manson?

  It's so funny because it's so obvious. And I remember, you know, you and I did an, an episode earlier this year about adult friendships. And it's like, when you look at the, the research on how friendships are made, like the number one thing is frequency of exposure, like how, literally, how often you physically see or speak to a person.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  It's been, it's been wild to me to see how much, how true that is and, or even just small little gestures of, of showing up in different ways. Like it means a lot to people.

• 9:16Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  It means a lot. And I, I mentioned, I think on that episode too, where I have reconnected with like childhood friends and

• 9:26Speaker 01

  either just through reaching out with them or getting on a plane and going and seeing them.

• 9:29Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  And it's a completely different relationship then. You get like, it's like a new friendship that you're going to start again as an adult. And it's just, I don't know. Um, I'm not sure if I have any good tips on like making friends, but I know like keeping friends.

• 9:42Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  This is, that's kind of what I'm talking about here.

• 9:44Mark Manson?

  Yeah. So principle number one, showing up. What else?

• 9:47Speaker 01

  Being first, like, uh, acting first.

• 9:50Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  I think putting yourself out there first, always being like, showing vulnerability, maybe what it is, or, um, telling, telling somebody like how much, um, they mean to you, not waiting for that from, from them.

• 10:03Mark Manson?

  Inviting them, the stuff.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Inviting.

• 10:05Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:06Mark Manson?

  Reaching out, following up.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, we have, um, I, a group of my friends back in Colorado, we have like a, a dinner club. Um, and we kind of get off track every now and then. Um, but it's about once a month, we try to get together. And you, uh, it, it's, it's so great because now everybody's like, oh no, I want to host, I want to host, I want to host, you know? Like now everybody's like, they, they realize what it is, like offering, uh, uh, being the first to offer is actually like the right move here.

• 10:33Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  And, and, and showing up for everybody in that way.

• 10:36Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Is really, really important. Yeah.

• 10:38Mark Manson?

  What would you say?

• 10:41Mark Manson?

  So the going first thing like

• 10:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:43Mark Manson?

  I'm bad at that and I don't know why like it's funny. You know, I had a lot of social anxiety when I was younger and I there's definitely sometimes like some remnants of social anxiety and it it's funny because it really only pops up in very specific contexts. But for some reason, one of those contexts is like invitations. Reaching out to somebody I haven't talked to in like six months. Following up with somebody and it's so silly like I I don't know like I have these moments where I'm like. I don't know. I feel like a a high school kid all over again, who's like worried that the cool kid's not gonna like want to hang out with me. So that's something that I need to get. I need to like practice and get better. And I imagine it is a practice. You just the more you do it, the easier it gets.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah, I've definitely found that over the years. Yeah.

• 11:28Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 11:29Speaker 01

  And I think one other thing, though, too, is just like help people. Maybe that's the same as going first. I don't know. But just if you can help somebody with something. Like people really, really appreciate that. Now, again, this is like a a maintenance thing, kind of a friendship maintenance thing, but I've had several of my friends tell me, you know, like, hey, if I actually the the couple that I went to go see for the anniversary, they said, if we ever got into a situation where we were in jail. Or, you know, anything like that, we would call you. We would definitely call you because we know that you're you're gonna show up, but you're also gonna have the ability to help us out.

• 12:04Mark Manson?

  Help them bury the body and.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  Yes, I would be very good at that.

• 12:07Mark Manson?

  Dispose of the evidence.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  I do have a lot of shovels, so yeah, we could do that.

• 12:10Mark Manson?

  I'd probably call you for that, too.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's really funny. It's just the more you give, the more you get.

• 12:16Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  It really is. That's really a.

• 12:18Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  That's a true thing.

• 12:19Mark Manson?

  All right. Moment of truth, though.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 12:22Mark Manson?

  Do you ever get frustrated? Because I imagine a lot of people don't reciprocate these principles.

• 12:30Mark Manson?

  Do you ever find yourself getting frustrated with people?

• 12:34Speaker 01

  No.

• 12:34Mark Manson?

  No?

• 12:36Speaker 01

  I don't think I do.

• 12:37Mark Manson?

  It's really unconditional. Like you just kind of give and you're like, if people don't reach out back to you or do things back for you, you like you don't get frustrated or resentful or?

• 12:48Speaker 01

  No, I mean, I if it was something, I guess if it was like a huge sum of money or something like that, and then they just never talked to me again, maybe I would, but it's never been like that. I I just find that.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  I I I don't know. It's just what else is there to do but help people in life? Honestly, what else is there to do? I know that sounds cheesy as shit. And but seriously, when it comes down to it, like, what what else is there to do?

• 13:14Mark Manson?

  We're gonna Photoshop like you in a

• 13:17Speaker 01

  So cheesy.

• 13:18Mark Manson?

  And a Mother Teresa nun outfit and then put in the cheesy cursive font like the what else is there to do but help people?

• 13:25Speaker 01

  I'm not. Okay, yes, I'm okay. I'm virtue signaling. Yes, yes, you got me.

• 13:30Mark Manson?

  We'll put some PBS music under it like

• 13:33Speaker 01

  No.

• 13:33Mark Manson?

  Light a candle.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  But it's not even that. It's I mean, like,

• 13:38Mark Manson?

  You're not wrong.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  Hold a door open for somebody.

• 13:40Mark Manson?

  You're not wrong.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  Like even down to that, like, just what else is there to do but help people?

• 13:44Mark Manson?

  I mean, I'm with you like, and I think ultimately, like philosophically, the things that feel meaningful in the long run are the things that we do for other people, the impact that we have on people's lives. And the relationships we build from that impact. It's so funny, too, because like it is a lot of these things. They do sound very cliche. But I also think you're a little bit ahead of the curve. I think people are just too cynical these days. Like, it's just

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 14:09Mark Manson?

  It's just too, it's too easy to like, sit in your phone and look at a billion things and disagree with everybody about everything and just be like, that's lame. I'm not gonna go do that. And and make up an excuse to sit at home and, you know, jerk off with the cat like it's it's this is this is what our social lives have come to. I mean, I don't know. You have a dog, maybe. I don't know. Like, whatever, whatever you're into, hamster, whatever you're into. Whatever you

• 14:38Speaker 01

  The cat's just in the corner watching you. What is fucking going on here?

• 14:44Mark Manson?

  Uh, back to the Mother Teresa. Yeah, let's uh, let's stick with the Mother Teresa.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 14:51Mark Manson?

  But yeah, I think it's too easy

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:53Mark Manson?

  to do that.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  And and I definitely, again, I feel my I feel myself getting sucked into that cynical vortex. Right. Well, yeah, the conversation with John Height, he talked about this too, right? Like that that television probably like it didn't rot our brains, but it probably destroyed social capital.

• 15:07Mark Manson?

  It isolated us.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  It isolated us and I would say, you know, uh, modern digital technology does that even more.

• 15:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  So absolutely, yeah, that's that's another goes back to the showing up thing, but I I have a default, basically, to just say yes. Whenever somebody invites me to something, I kind of just I say yes.

• 15:25Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  And then, you know, it's one of those things you get to the day and you're like, oh, I said yes to this thing. That happens all the time and I still go and nine times out of 10, I'm so glad that I went.

• 15:32Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. So just, yeah, putting yourself out there, getting going. I don't know though. Okay. So that, that though is, again, that's a lot of like friendship maintenance stuff.

• 15:41Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  And again, I have the capacity and like the bandwidth to be able to do that.

• 15:47Mark Manson?

  Yep.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  Because I don't have these other big relationship obligations in my life right now.

• 15:53Mark Manson?

  Yeah. I mean, if you got married, it'd ruin all this.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  Well, okay. So is that, is that true? Cause I think a lot of people will say, well, it's nice. It must be nice. You don't have, you know, a partner and kids and this job that is just draining and, you know.

• 16:05Mark Manson?

  I, I think so. Relationships and kids. It's not that it gets harder. It just, it, there's more complexity.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:13Mark Manson?

  Every time you, you make a friend or meet somebody, there's kind of like this, this internal process as you figure out. Okay. Does my wife like his wife? Like, is this going to be like a, a couples friendship, which you have the, like, that's a thing. Is it like, oh, this is one of my guy friends or this is, you know, this is going to be like her friend or this is my friend or whatever. And then I think when you introduce kids, there's like, and even like, there's a third layer of that complexity, which is, does our kid get along with their kid? Are they close in age? Do they play well together? Then it's, do we get along with the parents? Could we travel with them?

• 16:52Mark Manson?

  You know, oftentimes what you find is, uh, and this gets frustrated when you, when you're, when you're married is, um, you know, it's like, my wife will meet somebody and they get along great. They've become, they, they start to become really good friends. And then I go meet the husband and it's like, we have nothing in common and we have nothing to talk about. And so then it kind of becomes this question of like, okay. Do he and I just kind of like quietly suffer through an awkward, you know, dinner or weekend or whatever, so that our wives can be happy or have fun? Or do they just go off and be friends on their own? So there, there's a lot of like, I don't know, situations like that. But I, I think the principle is the same.

• 17:33Mark Manson?

  You show up for people, you go first, you reach out first and you be helpful.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  Right, right. Yeah, and again, it goes back to the like, understanding the trade offs. I think if there, there are people who probably do say, you know, they say, oh, it must be nice not to have kids, not to, you know, be married and unattached to all these things and whatever. There's also, I understand that trade off though. I, I don't have a stable partner and that security that that's, that's there for me. And instead I've put that energy into some friendships, you know, which, you know, when it comes down to it, you know, my, my friends who are married or whatever, they have that stable.

• 18:08Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  One person they can go to for everything. I don't have that.

• 18:11Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  So I've, I've traded that off.

• 18:13Mark Manson?

  I will say it, it like, it can work in the other direction too. Like it is really cool. Like when you do find, it's hard to find, but when you do find that couple, where you both like them both equally, like, and they both like you both equally. It's awesome.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:29Mark Manson?

  Like, it's a really cool thing, but it's, it's hard to find.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, that was kind of my next point I was going to make was the finding depth over breadth. Like if you can find that couple, you know, you don't need to find 10 couples that you can hang out with. You just, you probably need one to two couples that you guys can hang out with regularly. And I think you're going to be set, you know? I, I, I joke, I don't have like tons and tons of friends. I have a group of, a core group of, of people that I can turn to.

• 18:56Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Um, and then, you know, there, then there's kind of a concentric rings, you know, the circles, going further out. But I think focusing more on depth of relationships, especially as you get older is definitely the way to go.

• 19:09Mark Manson?

  Drew Burney goes deep inside just a few people.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  Cut that.

• 19:18Mark Manson?

  And now a word from our sponsor.

• 19:28Mark Manson?

  All right, and we're back. Drew's come back from his submergence.

• 19:34Mark Manson?

  What's on the docket today, Drew? What is brilliant or bullshitty today? What are we?

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Brilliant or bullshit, Mark, can YouTubers take the place of some of your casual friends? YouTubers, content creators, personal or public figures? What do you think of this?

• 19:52Mark Manson?

  I am the only emotional sustenance anybody needs.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  Like and subscribe.

• 19:58Mark Manson?

  Yeah, like and subscribe. Smash that like button. I too will be your friend.

• 20:05Mark Manson?

  Wait, no, is this really a thing? Like being, like what is this?

• 20:09Speaker 01

  So there's this study, it came out in Nature, too. So, you know, a high-impact journal.

• 20:13Mark Manson?

  Prestigious journal.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  Prestigious journal, which not, doesn't mean it's right, but you know.

• 20:20Speaker 01

  People perceive what they call parasocial relationships, which are basically one-sided relationships. So like a YouTuber, a celebrity, even fictional characters even too. People can actually, they report anyway, that those relationships that they have, those one-sided relationships they have, are actually more fulfilling than just like a casual acquaintance, in-person interaction that they might have, or a relationship. You might have a repeated relationship with somebody who's kind of considered like a casual friend. They actually find it more emotionally fulfilling to have a one-sided relationship with a public figure of some kind.

• 20:55Mark Manson?

  That makes sense to me.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 20:57Mark Manson?

  And that actually might, and all kidding aside, that actually does make sense to me. Only because it's a casual friendship or a casual acquaintance.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Right, so it wasn't the same, it wasn't the case with close personal relationships. Those were valued the most.

• 21:09Mark Manson?

  The most valuable, right. That makes sense to me because

• 21:14Mark Manson?

  as somebody who, like if you watch streamers, for instance, it's, I'm a huge gamer, as most, most of my fans know. I've been watching Twitch. Almost daily for the last 10 years, I follow a lot of big streamers. I like watching. To me, it's actually very fascinating to watch streams, like watch the chat, the community around a streamer and how they interact with them. And then there's been a few streamers that I've been fans of and I've interacted with. So I get that because it is very like the the streaming culture and I think to a less like TikTok feels a little bit this way to a lesser extent. I think some of the way that people use Instagram through like Instagram stories or Snapchat.

• 22:00Mark Manson?

  A lot of these forms of social media, it is extremely parasocial. It's it's basically optimized for parasocial relationship. You know, most of the social media stuff that I do or that we do, it's like very unidirectional. It's like broadcast, you know? So it's like we post, I post stuff I write on on Twitter and Instagram and, you know, I we craft these highly produced YouTube videos and then we produce these. This is probably the closest thing we have to like a parasocial relationship with the audience. But like, there's a lot of social media out there that is very much geared and optimized to make people feel like they're hanging out with a fun and cool friend. I understand too why it's more satisfying because it requires no investment.

• 22:43Mark Manson?

  It's always entertaining, like the the person you're a fan of or whatever, like they they entertain you, they make you happy, they make you laugh.

• 22:54Mark Manson?

  And there's like there's zero downside or social risk, whereas when you meet a stranger, an acquaintance, like let's say you go to a birthday party or something, you meet somebody new. There's like all this awkward stuff that happens of like, am I saying the right thing? Was that joke weird? Am I being funny? Like, does this person like me? You know, like there's kind of this like a lot of the awkward stuff that you have to feel out when you meet a new person and you're not really sure if if they like you or not. So I get it. I told, I actually totally get it.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:25Mark Manson?

  That I believe it. I, I, I don't think this is bullshit. I think it's, it's brilliant.

• 23:29Speaker 01

  Well, and the, the authors of this study too, they kind of theorize that there's kind of this shift going on right now. And it, it was, it's for a long time in the, the kind of media research landscape. It's been thought that people kind of glom onto these relationships, these parasocial relationships.

• 23:46Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  Because they don't have anything else in their, they're using it in place of

• 23:50Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  something else in their life. They're saying, actually, this might be like, kind of a healthy way to, to feel like you have some sense of either belonging or, uh, in this case, what it really is, is that the, they feel like these, these relationships are at least responsive.

• 24:06Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  To them. Not directly, like they're not responding to them, but they're like, they're responsive to my needs because they're talking about things that are important to me, or they're

• 24:14Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  making content about things that are important to me.

• 24:17Mark Manson?

  And they are, the person on, in aggregate, again, I'm thinking of streamers here, in aggregate, they are like, you are part of 2,000 people in the chat that the streamer is responding to.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 24:29Mark Manson?

  You know, so it's like, if the chat kind of like gets upset about something or starts,

• 24:35Mark Manson?

  you know, trashing the streamer or making jokes or whatever, like the streamer is going to react. So it is, there is a, some form of interaction that's going on. And I also agree with that too. Like I, I definitely, again, like there are a number of people that I follow on social media that, that I have somewhat of a parasocial relationship. Like I'm a fan. I enjoy just kind of sitting around, watching him play a game. I think they're funny. Uh, like I think their community is interesting or entertaining. Um, and to me, it definitely supplements my social life. It's not a replacement for my social life.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:08Mark Manson?

  So I get that too.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 25:10Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 25:11Speaker 01

  Well, another interesting finding from this study was, uh, they, they did three different studies in this. And the last one they did was they kind of, Well, first of all, they they gave people a self-esteem questionnaire.

• 25:21Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  Kind of divided them into high and low self-esteem. Uh, and then they they had them write about a time in which they were socially threatened in some way, you know, like being ostracized or neglected in some way from a group or whatever it was. And then they asked them another series of questions about these parasocial relationships with YouTubers or whatever they had. The people with high self-esteem, um, still thought, you know, like, yes, during these times I would, like, they would help assuage some of this, like, social threat that I had.

• 25:48Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  The people with low self-esteem just consistently, doesn't matter if they're socially threatened or not, they consistently turn towards them. So I think there might, that might be hinting at this, the beginnings of a toxic relationship with this. So I'm, I'm wondering about the limits here. What do you think about that? Obviously, like, if somebody's crazy and they're stalking, I'm not talking about that level.

• 26:09Mark Manson?

  There are definitely unhealthy parasocial relationships. And I definitely do think there are streamers and creators who try, kind of foster a toxic relationship with their audience.

• 26:20Mark Manson?

  You know, they, it's, they kind of thrive on antisocial behavior. And then the audience kind of gets the, the vicarious thrill of the antisocial behavior through the streamer.

• 26:35Mark Manson?

  And I, yeah, I think it can just, it's, it's another case of like attracting a lot of very low self-esteem people. And then like having them live vicariously through your risk-taking and your like egregious behavior.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:50Mark Manson?

  To kind of like get them, I guess, hooked on your personality to a certain extent. There's a lot of culty type stuff that goes on. I think if you, I think it's, it's kind of impossible to, to talk about this without bringing up OnlyFans. And just like the insane numbers behind OnlyFans.

• 27:08Mark Manson?

  I, not that I've been familiar with OnlyFans. I'm actually, in seriousness, I'm not familiar with OnlyFans.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  I've never been, I've never even tried to do that.

• 27:15Mark Manson?

  I've never signed up for OnlyFans, but I've heard stories of just like insane shit that's happened on OnlyFans. And like absurd amounts of money that are paid.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:25Mark Manson?

  To usually women, um, for like very toxic behaviors. I do know that like there, there are a number of models on OnlyFans that just like have entire teams of fake people messaging their fans on their behalf, like flirting with these like desperate lonely guys. So. As with any human relationship, there are, there's of course permutations of toxicity within parasocial relationships, but I do think that the parasocial thing, I think it's very interesting and I think this is one of the few cases that that I think social media is a marked improvement over, say, television or film.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 28:07Mark Manson?

  Because in the TV era, people would have parasocial relationships with just this like fictional image on a screen, you know, it's like people would become a Tom Cruise fan and obsess about Tom Cruise, when really it's like all you, you just saw him in Risky Business and Top Gun, like you don't, you literally know nothing about the guy, like he, I mean, he is, he turned out to be a head case and like, nobody knew. Whereas social media, you're at, you are, maybe you're not getting like the full authentic version of the, of the person on social media, but you are getting some facet of their actual personality. And you are, it's driven much more by authenticity, like the people who tend to become famous

• 28:49Mark Manson?

  online, they tend to be famous for being who they are, not because they're playing a character in a movie, or not because they're like, you know, onstage performing something. It's like, they're in their room, they're being who they are, they've got this quirky or interesting personality, they're like really attractive or entertaining in some way. And so, and they, they're able to foster an ethos within their community that people like being a part of. And so I think that is actually like a much better form of parasocial relationship than say when we were growing up and just like had fucking posters of Cindy Crawford.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 29:27Mark Manson?

  Or obsessing over.

• 29:28Speaker 01

  Some random celebrity.

• 29:30Mark Manson?

  From, yeah.

• 29:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:31Mark Manson?

  Totally.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah. So, what do you, what is this though? Like, obviously we have not evolved.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  To to even be able to keep up with an environment like this. Why, what is, what is being hacked about our brains? In this situation? So I find it is very interesting that it like people rate them higher than they're just casual in person.

• 29:59Mark Manson?

  Relationships.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  But lower than their close connections. And yet there's a lot of loneliness going on.

• 30:04Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 30:05Speaker 01

  People say they want more friends. Is it, is it just, is it? I don't, what is, what is, what is it hacking in our brains?

• 30:12Mark Manson?

  Well, I think it removes the friction. Like it allows you to feel socially connected and part of something with like, again, with zero friction, zero cost. The problem is, is that the, the ceiling on any parasocial relationship is extremely low. Right? Like it's so it's, it's easy to get in and get a, get a dose of it. But, you know, the, the satisfaction that you get in week one or month one is probably like, it's never, it's probably never going to get much higher than that. Whereas with a casual acquaintance, you know, meeting that random person at a party, having those awkward conversations, stumbling through a couple of like weird jokes or whatever.

• 30:52Mark Manson?

  That can eventually evolve into a very deep and satisfying friendship. Like the ceiling on in-person interactions is infinitely high. Whereas the ceiling on online parasocial interactions is extremely low. It's just easy to hit that ceiling. So I think it's, it's path of least resistance.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  Okay, okay.

• 31:10Mark Manson?

  I mean, we've talked about this internally about the podcast. Podcasting is very different in that people listen to it while they're doing something else. And, you know, it's like, when we make a YouTube video, people are just sitting down to watch the YouTube video. When we write, like when I write a book, people are just sitting down and reading the book. But with podcasting, you know, most people, statistically, most people are listening to this right now in their cars, cleaning the kitchen, taking out the trash, in the gym. And so there is, I One of the lessons, you know, we talked a couple of episodes ago about lessons we learned from the first year of podcasting. One of the lessons I definitely learned is that like,

• 31:52Mark Manson?

  this medium is, it's much less about, uh, you know, like sexy hooks and like hitting people in the face with a bunch of value. And, you know, it's much more, you're kind of hanging out with people as they go about their lives and it, you're, you're like kind of a companion to them. And so, I mean, it's, it's definitely a reality and like what we work on and think about for sure.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Well, and I mean, I do it as well. The podcasts I listen to, I, I see it as like, this is a parasocial relationship I have. And so that's why, yeah, I'm calling brilliant on this one too. It's not bullshit.

• 32:26Mark Manson?

  It's all brilliant. On that note, we'll be right back.

• 32:37Mark Manson?

  All right, we're back. What sort of questions we have this week, Drew?

• 32:41Speaker 01

  Well, um, I have a couple of questions. One from Julie. Um, this was submitted on YouTube. She asked, is it possible to have a fulfilling life without friends?

• 32:51Mark Manson?

  Uh, the data would suggest no.

• 32:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Hard no, actually.

• 32:56Mark Manson?

  Yeah, pretty hard no. Um, we are very much wired for social relationships, like a, a group, being a part of a group, feeling a sense of belonging. Like, if you look up anything about psychological needs, like belonging is one of the first and foremost ones towards mental health. Um, there's, I don't know how true this is. I don't know where this statistic originated, but there is a, a statistic that I've heard forever, which is that social isolation is just as unhealthy for you, or has just as much of an effect on your life expectancy as smoking a pack of cigarettes today.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  I've seen that some more too, yeah.

• 33:33Mark Manson?

  Which is pretty mind blowing. Yeah. Uh, so yeah, I do think, I do think friends or some sort of community or group that you feel like you're a part of, um, is, is absolutely fundamental.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  I think the word you said there was belonging too. The thing I had to Um, figure out was I, I felt like I could fit in in a lot of different places, but I didn't feel like I belonged in a lot of different places. And that was all dependent on the people. It was all dependent on friendships.

• 34:03Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  Um, I've lived in a lot of different spots and you know, felt like, yeah, I can fit in here. That's fair. I can, I can survive. I'll be fine.

• 34:09Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 34:09Speaker 01

  Having a sense of belonging though, I think is like, that's next level.

• 34:14Mark Manson?

  What is it?

• 34:16Speaker 01

  I just feel like I can be myself when I feel like I'm in a place where I belong. I just, I don't feel, and I'm sure you feel this like in your marriage, you've, you've mentioned this before. You feel like you can just, there's, there's no pretense. There's no guard up.

• 34:29Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 34:30Speaker 01

  Um, I feel like I can just be me without having to perform, without having to prove myself in any way, either to just, just like a level of unconditionality there that I can feel. And I think for me, anyway, that's, that was developed over time.

• 34:48Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  It didn't, it wasn't a thing that came, I, I know some people that'll go somewhere and like, I belong here. This is it.

• 34:52Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  I know it.

• 34:53Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  And whether that, that turns out to be true or not, I have no idea, but there's people who feel that instantly. For me, it's a slow burn thing.

• 34:59Mark Manson?

  Interesting.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:00Mark Manson?

  It's funny because this is actually very like, this is very relevant in my life at the moment because uh, my wife really misses New York.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:09Mark Manson?

  And she is, we've had this conversation where she says, I feel like I belong there.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 35:15Mark Manson?

  And I don't belong here. And I feel kind of the opposite. I feel like in New York, I can fit in in New York. I can do the New York thing. But here I feel like myself much more. And to me, it's, you know, in, in my conversations with her and like really digging into this and like what this is. Uh, we kind of discovered that it, a lot of it's reflective of, of personal values. Like for me, it's LA. I feel like. Not even LA, just like Southern California, it nudges me, the environment nudges me into being a better version of myself.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  That's an important point, too, yeah.

• 35:53Mark Manson?

  Whereas in New York, the environment nudges me into being a worse version of myself. It kind of nudges me into a lot of my addictions and compulsions and anxieties.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  So what was that, though? What, like, the decision around moving from New York to LA? What was the conversation around that? Because you had to have been thinking of the trade-offs, right?

• 36:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  What was the conversation of that with your wife? I mean, no, she's from Brazil.

• 36:20Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  You're from Texas.

• 36:21Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  New York is cold as shit in the winter. Was that, I mean, you know, did you're like, oh, God, I'm tired of these winters and we're just gonna move? And you didn't think of all the other things around it, or?

• 36:28Mark Manson?

  It's funny, I have a very contrarian take on on weather, which is, I feel like, so the two things that I've, here's a hill I will die on.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 36:37Mark Manson?

  If you love, if you love where you live, or if you feel like you belong where you live, weather and taxes don't matter.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I feel like that about Colorado, so yeah.

• 36:46Mark Manson?

  Anytime, anytime I hear somebody start, like, discussing taxes or weather.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:52Mark Manson?

  I'm like, they should move.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:54Mark Manson?

  Because they clearly don't love where they are anymore.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:57Mark Manson?

  Another great-

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Can you imagine, like, moving somewhere for all the taxes?

• 37:00Mark Manson?

  Oh, dude.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  What the fuck?

• 37:02Mark Manson?

  Get some rich friends, like, if fuck comes up all the time.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 37:06Mark Manson?

  Which kills me, because I'm like, dude, like, you're really gonna uproot your whole life to save, like, you know, 8% on your income. You're already making a bajillion dollars. But it's, it's funny, actually, uh, uh, I think Derek Sivers actually said this to me privately once. He said, uh, he said, everywhere in the world has the same tax rate, you just pay in different ways.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  Oh, that's 100% true. He would know, too. He's lived all over.

• 37:28Mark Manson?

  Yeah, and he's paid taxes in, like, five different countries, so.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:32Mark Manson?

  So, yeah, it's, I'm definitely a staunch believer of that, but like, the conversation around leaving New York, it was very much, I mean, New York has, it burns you out pretty hard. Like, it's overwhelming, there's so much going on. She and I also lived there during the pandemic. We went through, like, we went through- I mean, we had been there for six years. We went through the pandemic. We had a bunch of like very bad experiences with where we lived, which New York is absolutely famous for its atrocious housing and services.

• 38:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 38:05Mark Manson?

  So like, we, we just, just had a nightmare scenario with one of the apartments we lived in. And so we, we came out of it, just like, we went to New Zealand to, because I was shooting, I was doing the movie. So we spent a few months down there. And while we were down there, we were like, we gotta get out of New York. Like, this is, it's too much. We need to leave. And we actually spent a lot of time in New Zealand. And we went to a part of the South Island. We spent most of our time in Auckland, and we went to Wellington, we went part of the South Island. And, and, you know, she was like, I could, is there anywhere in the US that's kind of like this? Because I could do this. I was like, it, then it's Southern California. Like, that's kind of it, right?

• 38:46Mark Manson?

  So yeah, then we came out here. We spent a few weeks here that summer. We looked at houses, we hung out with a bunch of friends, and we loved it. But it's funny, because there, there is a, you know, there's, there's the honeymoon phase of a location, and say, a group of friends.

• 39:05Mark Manson?

  And then there's the actual relationship with the place you live and with the group of friends. And for me, the honeymoon phase turned into like a very great relationship. I've got my gripes, as with every relationship. There's a downside to living anywhere. But, you know, for her, it's, it's, I think it's, she realized it's like, it's not a perfect fit. So it is interesting. That's a question I've been thinking about quite a bit lately. It's like, what is belonging? And, and it's, because you, there's a certain aspect of it you can't control. It's just, you just feel it.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, you do. And for the longest time, I just thought, well, I don't belong anywhere. That's what, how I felt. And then, once you do, you're like, oh, God. You know, like, what, this is what I've been missing the whole time. And it's sad to me that a lot of people don't find that.

• 39:58Mark Manson?

  I, I would compare that feeling to relationships. Like, it's, it's-

• 40:07Speaker 01

  Well, okay, that's the other question.

• 40:09Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Can you be happy without a romantic relationship?

• 40:12Mark Manson?

  Yes, you can.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  I would agree.

• 40:14Mark Manson?

  Again, the data backs that.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah. There's plenty, plenty of people who are single. So here's the one, this one comes up, we, we had a, we had a question come in through the newsletter recently that I did not answer in the newsletter. Because I told Val, I was like, I'm gonna write eight pages if I try to answer this. But a number of questions have come through around this, around sex. Like, I, I would throw, there, well, we can throw a third question to the end of this. Can you be happy without sex?

• 40:42Speaker 01

  That, that question actually came up too. I didn't include it here, but yeah.

• 40:44Mark Manson?

  Okay. So let's do romantic relationships first. So you could come, you can totally be happy throughout your life, completely single, without a, a romantic relationship. That said, people in romantic relationships, it's, it's a, it cuts both ways. So if the relationship's good, you are, you will be happier than you were if you were single. And if the relationship is bad, you'll be less happy than you, you were. Fucking common sense. But it's, it's the sort of thing like it's a, you know, I guess, risk reward type thing. So it's better to be single than in a bad relationship, but it's better to be in a good relate, like, on average, you will be happier in a good relationship than no relationship.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  Well, what do you think about turning your friends into romantic relationships?

• 41:28Mark Manson?

  Wait, dude, as I-

• 41:28Speaker 01

  I think that's a great way to do it. I don't know, but-

• 41:30Mark Manson?

  I would argue that, so, okay, so it's funny, when I, when I, the, the fun thing about getting married is that everybody you've ever known, every old person you've ever known, starts just giving you unsolicited advice.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 41:45Mark Manson?

  Like what to do, what not to do. You, you actually learn a lot about your, like, extended family, about some of the shit that they say to you. But it was interesting, you know, for Nana and I, we noticed that, like, when we got married, all of the old people in our families who were still married and still happy, they all said the same thing. They said the friendship has to come first. The friend, like, if you're not friends, nothing else will last, or, like-

• 42:14Mark Manson?

  The best way it was put to me is that everything else is gonna come and go. You know, the, the sex is gonna come and go, the attractiveness is gonna come and go, like, their career is gonna do great, it's gonna do bad, your career is gonna do great, it's gonna, everything's gonna be in flux all the time. The only thing that's gonna keep everything like tethered together is a strong friendship. If the friendship's not there, you're gonna just be tossed, you know, like in a, in a storm.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:42Mark Manson?

  So that made a lot of sense to me and, and I, you know, as somebody who's been married

• 42:48Mark Manson?

  twelve, or been with her for twelve years, that feels very true. It's like, every year's different, our lives change constantly, she and I both change quite a bit, we're both very different people than we were ten years ago, but the friendship is like what holds everything together.

• 43:06Speaker 01

  Right, right. Yeah, and I, I mean, I went, the anniversary party I went back for, anniversary dinner, they'd been together fifteen years, um, since they were like

• 43:16Mark Manson?

  Babies.

• 43:17Speaker 01

  Like babies, late teens or like in college, I mean.

• 43:19Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:20Speaker 01

  And that, they say the same thing, there's no way you can make it through that without being really good friends.

• 43:26Mark Manson?

  I feel like any, any happy couple I've ever talked to about this, they all say that it's, the friendship has to come first.

• 43:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:34Mark Manson?

  And it's funny, it's similar, it's like the taxes, so sex is the taxes of relationships, like, anytime people start complaining about sex, it's like, okay, there's no friendship there, like, ah, like they've lost the friendship. Because I have found that like, when, when people are unhappy in the relationship, that's when, that's when they start getting upset about, about sex, that's when they start getting upset about like, well, he spends this money and, you know, I think we should be saving more and like, you know, or like, she should take the kids to school more often, they start arguing about chores, they start arguing about like, you know, all like the, the kind of surface level stuff.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:13Mark Manson?

  That if there's a, a happy, stable friendship there, yeah, you'll argue about it, but it sorts itself out, because it's like, when you're happy together, you're both willing to, to compromise and like, be like, you know what, I'll, I'll take the kids to school.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:27Mark Manson?

  You know, I'll, I'll do this, like, she'll do that, you know, whatever. But when there's not a friendship there, it becomes a power struggle and then it's like, well, You know, I'm not gonna give this up because you didn't give that up and you're not giving me this. So I'm not gonna give you that. But if you give me that, I'll give you this, right?

• 44:43Speaker 01

  Would you treat your friend that way?

• 44:44Mark Manson?

  Like, no.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:45Mark Manson?

  Yeah. No, that's like, you'd fucking stop being friends with that person.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:49Mark Manson?

  But for some reason, in a romantic relationship, a lot of people think that this is like completely justified behavior.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  Right. And it's because they're not friends. Yeah.

• 44:57Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. I would also say too, the best relationship advice, like the best dating advice is to go make new friends.

• 45:03Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  Not necessarily even to date them, but you're gonna meet more people.

• 45:07Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  That way. And then you also start from that friends, friendship.

• 45:11Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  As a priority type of thing. You see how relationships with just friends work. And then to get into relationships after that, I think that's, I don't know. I don't think I've ever really turned a, like a good friend into a relationship. That's never really happened with me, but I've met a lot of friends. I've met a lot of people I've dated through, through friends.

• 45:28Mark Manson?

  I feel, I've heard of that happening. I don't think it's very common. But I would be very curious to see if, if there's any data out there on marriage success based on how you meet.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 45:38Mark Manson?

  I imagine there is.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:40Mark Manson?

  I imagine meeting through friends is probably the most successful way to like find a partner.

• 45:48Mark Manson?

  I imagine maybe meeting through work is another one. I imagine dating apps is, its hit rate is not great.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I don't know. We'd have to look into that. That's a, that's a good one to look up.

• 45:59Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. I like it.

• 46:01Mark Manson?

  Maybe, maybe that's the next brilliant or bullshit thing. Yeah.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  Could be.

• 46:04Mark Manson?

  All right. Cool. Well, that's all for this episode. Be sure to submit your questions. You can either comment on YouTube or send them to [email protected]. Please be sure to follow the show, like and subscribe, do all that good stuff. It helps us know that we're doing a good job, helps us feel like we have a parasocial relationship with you. What is the weekly wisdom this week?

• 46:28Speaker 01

  Uh, it comes from the great philosopher Bruce Lee. Love is like a friendship caught on fire.

• 46:33Mark Manson?

  Ooh.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Very fitting.

• 46:34Mark Manson?

  Fire emoji.

• 46:37Mark Manson?

  Fire emoji.

• 46:40Mark Manson?

  All right. On that note, see you guys next week. Thanks for listening. The Subtle Art of Not Getting a Fuck podcast is produced by Drew Burney. It's edited by Andrew Nishimura, Jessica Choy is our videographer and sound engineer. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week.