How to Cut Through the Bullsh*t in Modern Dating (ft. Sabrina Zohar)

Wouldn’t it be great if we dropped all the bullsh*t about modern dating? No more games. No more fake, flaky people. No more texting back and forth for weeks or even months only to find out you have zero chemistry when you meet up in person. No more f*cking bots and AI generated dating profiles… Sabrina Zohar definitely thinks we can skip all of it and get right down to the fun stuff (oh yeah, baby!). All it requires is brutal honesty with yourself and the people you’re interested in. So if you can stomach that, this episode is right up your alley. We ask Sabrina: What does your attachment style really tell you about how you should date? Are dating apps really that terrible, or can we change the way we use them to get better results? And do we have high standards, or are our expectations just too f*cking high And a whole lot more. We had a lot of fun in the studio with Sabrina. I hope you enjoy it too. About Sabrina Zohar Sabrina Zohar is the multi-faceted entrepreneur and media figure responsible for coaching hundreds of thousands of people to start doing the work to improve their dating life, their relationships with others–and more importantly: their relationships with themselves. Sabrina’s online presence shifted from talking about her sustainable clothing line, SoftWear, to sharing about her personal dating life. Sabrina’s message spread like wildfire, and the rest is history. Sabrina’s message has earned her features in NBC California live, The LA times, The Drew Barrymore show, Daily Mail, Newsweek, US Sun, Yahoo, MSN, and more. Sabrina is a multi-faceted force guiding individuals to success in the entrepreneurial space, fashion, podcasting and media, and of course, the intricate world of love and relationships. Sabrina’s website: https://www.sabrinazohar.com/ The Sabrina Zohar Show Podcast: https://www.sabrinazohar.com/podcast Follow Sabrina: https://www.tiktok.com/@sabrina.zohar https://www.instagram.com/sabrina.zohar https://www.youtube.com/@Sabrina_zohar CHAPTERS Chapters 00:00:00 Introduction: Meet Sabrina Zohar 00:00:56 From Fashion to Dating Advice: Sabrina's Origin Story 00:03:27 The Biggest Surprise: People Don't Know Their Own Power 00:04:22 Fuck of the Week: Attachment Styles 00:06:04 Breaking Down the Four Attachment Styles 00:08:39 The Self-Fulfilling Prophecy of Labels 00:10:45 Two Insecure People Can Heal Together 00:12:20 The Texting Boundary That Changed Everything 00:15:00 Stop Self-Identifying With Your Trauma 00:16:12 Dating Apps: Too Many Exits, Not Enough Effort 00:17:26 The Apps Aren't the Problem, You Are 00:20:38 Brilliant or Bullshit: Are Dating Apps Dying? 00:28:03 The Facsimile of Intimacy: Digital Relationships 00:33:17 Chat GPT Is Ruining Human Connection 00:35:00 The Fragility Epidemic: Ghosting and Emotional Safetyism 00:44:24 Audience Question: When Standards Are Too High 00:48:01 Expectations vs Non-Negotiables 00:50:15 The Fear of Communicating Needs 00:53:25 Rejection Is Redirection 00:54:14 Know What You Want: The Life You're Building 00:55:19 Wrap Up and Where to Find Sabrina ⇨ Sign up for my newsletter, Your Next Breakthrough. It will help make you a less awful person: ⁠⁠⁠⁨https://markmanson.net/breakthrough⁩⁠⁠⁠ ⇨ Get clarity on what actually matters. Try Purpose, Mark's AI mentor app that learns your patterns, challenges your blind spots, and helps you take action. Get started at ⁠⁠⁠⁨https://bit.ly/4w46FMH⁠⁠⁠ FOLLOW MARK Mark's IG: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/markmanson⁠ Solved IG: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/solvedpodcast/⁠ Twitter: ⁠https://x.com/markmanson⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/markmanson/⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@IAmMarkManson Theme Song: Icarus Lives by @Periphery , used with permission from Periphery.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mark Manson?

  Sabrina, welcome.

• 0:01Speaker 01

  What's up, Mark?

• 0:02Mark Manson?

  It's so good to have you here.

• 0:03Speaker 01

  I'm so excited.

• 0:04Mark Manson?

  I'm excited too, because, so we've had the podcast for about a year. We've done maybe like half a dozen episodes on relationships, dating, had, had dating experts on. And Drew's still single. I don't know what's wrong with him. It's a problem at this point. I'm hoping you can tell me by the end of this episode. It's a PR problem at this point.

• 0:24Speaker 01

  Great, so in the next thirty.

• 0:25Mark Manson?

  We're supposed to be giving advice that works. Come on, Drew.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Oh, Drew, I have so many questions.

• 0:32Speaker 02

  It's the Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck Podcast with your host, Mark Manson.

• 0:40Mark Manson?

  Uh, where am I supposed to go with that? He's speechless. He's actually speechless.

• 0:45Speaker 01

  This would be fun if I'm like, okay, Drew, let's go. So, tell me, mom and dad, right? Like, we all sort of...

• 0:52Mark Manson?

  Let's not go there. How about we talk about you, Sabrina? How did you get into this whole crazy world of dating, online dating, social media? What was your story behind all that?

• 1:04Speaker 01

  So, my story's a little bit, like, not traditional. Like, I went to, I moved to New York when I was nineteen to go to acting school. And I was like, man, I wasn't very good at it. And then went to fashion, worked in fashion for like eight, nine years, and just fucking hated it. Like, truth be told. And in 2017, my mom went to the doctor with a headache and they, she had six brain aneurysms and they gave her like no chance of survival. And she came out okay. And it was like a true miracle. And so that was when I started therapy and started to understand, like, holy shit, your mindset, even though you're given all of the terrible and negative, could actually really be used for your positive, because you can really get through things, depending on where you shift. Don't get me wrong, I still didn't get it at this time. I just was starting to understand that. And then fast forward, I was working, I started my clothing company, software, and was doing things.

• 1:48Speaker 01

  And then 2022, I was supposed to be on Shark Tank, I am single in LA. And it was at that moment where I started to realize, like, my anxiety was just, it was getting worse. It wasn't really getting any better. And all of these things that we were ingesting were just constantly clickbait, or do this to get this, or manipulation, like, there was no accountability, there was no self-awareness. And I was ingesting it, and so I was dating and doing. And I was on set for Shark Tank, and I got sent home after 12 hours. And I, my life kind of like came crashing. And I was like, I've got nothing, I don't know what I'm gonna do. And a friend of mine was like, hey, man, you give really good dating advice. Like, you're always on podcasts, I think you should try. And so, of course, I had my own limiting beliefs, being like, no one cares about me. And I was just like, you know what? What do I have to lose? So I had like my Miley Cyrus Hannah Montana moment. I was like TikTok will be one persona.

• 2:33Speaker 01

  And then Instagram is like the professional. And then the TikTok blew up. I started my podcast January 2023 and was like, let's, let me give people what I've received from therapy in different modalities that actually moves the needle and then will lead you to the result of like what it is that you want. But it starts and ends with you. And so I think that's really what motivated me to start this. And then it continued on by just putting out content and then organically seeing millions of people resonate with it. And I think at this point, like that's why Mark, I love your content so much because I think it's important that we cut through the bullshit and actually like give the advice that people need, not what they want to hear.

• 3:10Mark Manson?

  Yeah. What has been the biggest surprise? Cause I imagine after, after your audience kind of blew up and things took off, you got deluged with questions, problems, life stories. Like what has been the biggest surprise to you of what you hear from people?

• 3:27Speaker 01

  I think the biggest surprise is how there's so many in my brain is like in six different ways. But I think what comes to mind first is how so many people really don't understand that like they have so much more power and agency than they give themselves credit for. And if we really just understood like, hey, man, you're just dysregulated. Like that's why you feel like you're going to die. That's why you feel all of this. But I think so many people really are stuck in a place and without really understanding like, how do you tap into that? I'm seeing so much power just given away every single day of like, I'll get these emails of like pages of how this person's just the worst human being. Like there is nothing redeeming, but at the end it's like, but I still love them. What do I do?

• 4:09Speaker 01

  So I think that's the shock for me is how little people understand or like realize that you have so much power within you. If you actually fucking take control and ownership of you and how you present yourself to people, it will change the way you date and have experiences.

• 4:22Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 4:23Speaker 03

  Well, okay, that's a perfect spot then for the fuck of the week. We have this segment called the fuck of the week. What are we giving a fuck about? What are we not giving a fuck about? And I want to dive right into it with you with attachment styles, which is right, right along that lane. How much of a fuck should we give about our attachment style going into this? There's kind of been a introduction of that language into the kind of the popular culture. And I think a lot of people are aware of it, but I think a lot of people only have a surface level understanding of it. And sometimes we get, I know for me anyway, I'm like, oh, I'm avoidant. And then it became a self fulfilling prophecy. How much of a fuck should we really give about our attachment styles? What do you think?

• 4:59Speaker 01

  I think if we're looking like a one to a hundred, right? If I would say like 30%. And I know that people will be like, what? You talk about this. It's like, yeah, attachment styles are so you understand yourself. Attachment styles are so that you can be like, oh, cool. I'm not crazy. Like when I found out about anxious attachment, I was like, oh, there's a name for it. Okay, this is, and it's a blueprint for me to be able to heal, right? And go, okay, where did I learn this from? Oh, what's the behavior of someone anxious? Like, got it. This is how that navigates. When I met my partner who's more avoidant, it's not about, I'm diagnosing you, you're the worst person in the world. It's, okay, I understand that how I might behave would interact and you'll get triggered and things like that. I think we give way too many fucks on people like diagnosing others of like my avoidant, my narcissist. And it's like, whoa, whoa, you know so much about them that they're

• 5:44Speaker 01

  an avoidant or a narcissist, but yet we're still here. Attachment styles, I think there's been a misconception. I think a lot of people confuse like an avoidant attachment style with like avoidant personality disorder, right? Two completely different things. Avoidant, like any attachment style is really just how did you connect with your caregivers? And that's how, how did you attune, right? Learn the attunement. Somebody's secure, right? For anybody who's maybe not sure, we've got four major ones.

• 6:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, let's do that. Yeah.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  Right. You know, for argument's sake, there's like four biggies. There's the secure, and then there's the three insecure. So the secure attached person comes from a home where they were taught that like love is safe, love is something that you can give and receive. They have an understanding of independence and interdependence, right? So it's like, you're not afraid of conversations. You know that it's important to speak up because you were raised in a home where your feelings mattered, your thoughts mattered. That's the pinnacle we all want to get to. Eh, well, enjoy climbing the mountain. Then we go to the insecure attachment styles. And we've got three major ones. Of course, there's amalgamations, but we've got the avoidant. We've got the anxious and we have the disorganized. The avoidant attachment is when triggered, right? This isn't that like this person just avoids conversation. When triggered, which a trigger is a cue to your nervous system that you're in danger.

• 6:52Speaker 01

  Something happens that to someone else might not be a big deal. You go inwards, right? To people that are avoidant, the messaging early on was like emotions aren't safe. You could be potentially ridiculed or judged for having emotions. Maybe you had emotionally unavailable parents. So there is a discomfort with someone else's emotions and expressing your own. Then the flip side of it, we go to the anxious, right? I'm, hi, nice to meet you.

• 7:16Speaker 03

  Stand up and be counted.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  Hi. So the poster child of it. And essentially what that means, it's like inconsistency, right? I had a narcissistic father and a people pleasing mother. I had a father that was always in and out. So what did I learn? Some, love is not safe. I have to scream and yell for it. I have to earn it. Right? And so the anxious attacher is so uncomfortable in their own body. I need you to tell me I'm going to be okay. So it's a lot of codependency in that regard. Then the disorganized is like that amalgamation. You've ever seen someone that took super push pill? One minute they're amazing and then the next you're like, I feel like I don't know who you are. That's the disorganized. They want love, so they'll come closer. And then they're terrified of the rejection or the intimacy and they pull away. The reason it's important that we understand where these manifest is because people will be like, Drew, you're an avoidant. And it's like, I'm sorry, how did you know that about me? I haven't been triggered with you.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  Versus, hey, you just don't share anything. It's like, well, maybe that person's just an asshole. Right? Like they don't have to be any attachment style.

• 8:09Speaker 03

  I've been called that too. Yeah, yeah. They're not mutually exclusive.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Correct. But yeah, like moral of the story is like, I think attachment styles are important. So you understand yourself and you understand how your triggers manifest in other people. And also so that we have some self-awareness of like, hey, if I'm super anxious and I might want to text a lot. Mark, you and I are dating hypothetically, you're not, right? You're like, hey, I'm significantly more secure. I'm not going to use this to manipulate you. What I'm going to use this as is, hey, this is my own shit. Here's what I can learn about myself and how we can actually have a successful relationship.

• 8:39Mark Manson?

  Yeah. It's interesting to see, I think I first wrote about attachment theory like 2012, maybe 2013. But this has happened with a number of psychological concepts over the years, not just attachment theory. But I think attachment theory is kind of. The most obvious one that I've seen, the way TikTok and Instagram culture have taken what is really solid theories with a bedrock of research and then like twisted them into these status games and coping mechanisms of like, you know, some guy doesn't call you back. So it's like, oh, well, he's avoidant and you're actually just really coping like it's not, you don't actually know anything about this person, but it's become this weird, I

• 9:24Mark Manson?

  don't even know what the word is for it, but you see with all sorts of mental health concepts that it's just become this like weird signaling game on social media. And I actually think it's toxified a lot of these concepts in a weird way. Like I think in a certain way, it's working against people at this point.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. I couldn't agree more. And it's interesting. It's funny that we talk about, oh, well, if someone says like, oh, they're avoidant and you're like, it's talk, that's cliche anxious behavior, right? Diagnosing other people, making external. I'm so uncomfortable with myself, so I'm going to analyze you because if I analyze you, I don't have to worry about me. I don't have to think about what's coming up. Anxious people are avoidant and avoidant people are anxious. And so it's that I think what we've had is like TikTok university has now so many people have graduated that think they understand these really nuanced concepts and they've put it into like a bumper sticker, right? That's what my partner always says, like, if it can fit into 140 characters or less, if you wanted to, he would. If they like you know, and it's like, I'm sorry. So everything is just chalked up to that one statement. All humans, almost nine billion of us are

• 10:25Speaker 01

  the same. That makes it a lot less fun if we start to think of it that way. So I think to your point, it's like narcissism. People will say, oh, he's a narcissist. It's like, no, that dude just didn't like you. A narcissist is a very different thing. But I think again, when we get into that, like, I want to heal other people. I want to diagnose other people. And when we try to diagnose other people, what we end up doing is self abandoning.

• 10:45Mark Manson?

  And I think what gets lost too, is that you can actually be in an insecure relationship and it can still work out. Like you can.

• 10:52Speaker 03

  That's a big one. Yeah.

• 10:52Mark Manson?

  Yeah. I mean, you actually, I mean, this was a huge part of attachment theory is that actually the primary way you heal, the way you learn to regulate yourself is within a relationship is by like having that secure boundary with somebody so that every time you freak out and you get triggered. Nothing horrible happens.

• 11:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, and yet so much of the advice is, oh, stay away from avoidance. Or stay away from anxious or whatever. So much of the advice is that. It's like, no, learn to work with them.

• 11:18Mark Manson?

  Wait for the most perfectly secure person on earth who doesn't exist, by the way.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  Exactly. Or you'll see that there's this one guy, and I'm not going to name names, even though I want to.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  He drives me insane, his content, because it was like, it's all this stuff of like, I'm going to teach you how. And he's like, a secure man is going to heal your anxious attachment. And I'm like, I'm going to pull my fucking hair out. Like, that's not how it works. I'm, I have had my own anxiety and my partner has his avoidance. We are both in, it's called earn secure. You can absolutely earn your security. In our relationship, I don't worry about any of those things. In life, am I anxious? Nah, I'm still so hard. But there's still an element of understanding, like you can heal through that. And two insecure people can heal. But the key here is like, what are you, are you doing the work? Are you actually trying to implement and grow and change your mindset and learn new things? Or is it, well, every time I get triggered, the person walks out and you're like, okay, well, we're not making progress.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  So I think if two people are very committed to actually progressing a relationship, doesn't need to start off being the most secure people. But like, to your point, if, I'll give you an example. When I first started dating my partner, my smart ass was like, he's not texting me enough.

• 12:27Speaker 01

  And I was like, this poor guy, like, he just, he was very clear from the beginning, like, I want to build a connection with you, not on the phone. And after like maybe six or seven dates, I text him saying like, hey, being all cute, saying, you know, I'd love like a little bit more texting in between our dates to feel more connected to you. And he went, came right with a boundary of like, hey, great to hear from you. Going to be honest. And it was just like, he's like, I don't connect via the phone. I work nine hours on a screen all day. The last thing I want is a mini screen in my hand while I'm connecting with my friends and family and my dog. If that doesn't work for you, completely understand. If not, I'd love to take you out to dinner and get to know you in person.

• 12:58Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 12:58Speaker 03

  What a thought.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  It was.

• 13:00Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 13:03Speaker 03

  I mean, that's just so, it's so simple, though, and people, we complicate it way too goddamn much.

• 13:07Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  And it's like, and, and, but then that's that moment where I could have chosen, fuck this guy. He's avoidant. And instead, I was like, no, Sabrina, challenge yourself. You can heal. And then I never brought the texting up and our, our relationship progressed to like, well, here we are two years later. Because I think what we see in the beginning is. A lot of these triggers, like, I mean, here we go into the mental state, the mental aspect of it is like you go from the prefrontal cortex into the amygdala and we go into that limbic part of our brain and you're operating out of old operating system from when you're six. It's not going to be a shock that every little thing is going to cause you to say, I can't do this. I want to go away because there's no goddamn coping mechanisms or tools to push through and say, let me sit in the discomfort and we actually maybe try to grow through this. Because if every single guy you date, it's the same issue, we have to stop blaming everybody else.

• 13:53Mark Manson?

  You hear this all the time. Every, the only thing all of the people you date have in common is you. So if it all fails spectacularly in the same way, uh, guess what?

• 14:02Speaker 03

  Well, that's kind of where I was talking about, I alluded to, it can become a self fulfilling prophecy too. Like when I learned all this, I actually studied this in like graduate school and everything like that. So I, I went the other way and went too deep into it and intellectualize it too much. And then I kind of was like, oh yeah, I have these avoidant tendencies. I'm avoiding, now I'm going to act that out for the longest time. And it's only been within the last few years that I've realized, actually I'm pretty anxious too. I'm a little bit more disorganized than I thought I was. And then I also realized that there's actually some kind of redeeming qualities about my avoidance and my anxiety that don't have to necessarily be, you know, thrown out. You don't gotta throw the baby out with the bathwater necessarily. And so, yeah, I don't know. I, I kind of came to this realization that, um, I don't

• 14:45Speaker 03

  have to just be avoidant all the time, right? You know, it's okay that I can be anxious. And it's like you just, just expressing that to somebody and being very open and honest upfront about it has been huge for me anyway. Yeah.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  Total game changer. Of course it's validating, right?

• 14:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, 100%.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  I think it's like my, I remember once when I first started dating my partner, I said, um, I'm anxious. And he looked at me and he goes, you have anxiety. We don't need to self identify. And I was like, good call. You're right. I don't need to self identify. I'm not an anxious person. I have anxiety. It's a part of me, like the thousand other fucking parts of me that exist. And for you with the avoidance as well, it's like, intellectualizing wouldn't be a shock, right? The avoidance, the avoidant people want to avoid the emotions. So let me intellectualize. And if I can just cognitively understand this, fuck the emotions. I don't need them. But then finding a pendulum that doesn't swing severely could even start with saying, sure, this might make me uncomfortable, but I'm learning and growing. That acceptance, that not belittling, not, I'm an avoidant, I'm an avoidant. And then our cognitive bias is like, all right, so avoid. Instead, it's like, can we show a little bit of compassion and acceptance first within ourselves?

• 15:45Speaker 01

  And then the people that we're meeting that like, I hate to break it to a lot of people just because you show up on a date and have a good time. Doesn't mean everyone felt that and it's not something that we need to take personally, but we can actually like grow through all of this stuff. A hundred percent.

• 15:57Mark Manson?

  Yeah. How much do you think of the unwillingness to sit with the discomfort and grow through the stuff? Is just having too many exits, having too many options outside of like, because I don't know. I think back when I used to date, this is pre-app, so it's actually fucking hard to meet somebody. Like you actually had to put work in to go meet somebody. You had to suffer through anxiety, risk embarrassing yourself, make a fool of yourself in front of your friends. So when you met somebody and there was even an inkling of chemistry, there was kind of this like, well, let's just, let's really try to make this work. Because I don't want to have to go, go to the fucking bar and do that again.

• 16:41Mark Manson?

  Right? And I, I feel like today it's just so easy to get back on the app and start swiping right that, you know, people don't feel that, that opportunity cost.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  I think it's a double edged sword because like, to your point, okay, yeah, we used to be able to go out and like meet somebody. And it's like, oh, that's a beautiful experience. Like I remember, I remember those days when in New York, you're like, I passed my number to someone and people like, look at you like you're shocked. You're like, yeah, yeah, I interacted with a human and I, I potentially could have gotten rejected. I didn't like, I got laid instead. And it's like, well, it was a good ending, but I think we, I think, you know, like anything, it's like technology. What a beautiful thing, right? Wouldn't have met you guys if it wasn't for technology, wouldn't have a fucking voice if it wasn't for technology. But then the pendulum swings to where you're like, oh, but technology has brought all of these bad things. And I think, sure, is it easier? Of course it is. I could just get back on the app. I don't have to deal with it.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  And I think that now we have this weird like subculture of like judging people for being on the apps of like, oh, I want to meet someone in person. And it's like, here's a fun fact, 68% of couples meet online now. So enjoy, have fun with the other 40, 32% of where you're going to meet these people. But I think what I usually get curious about when I ask like, okay, what don't you like about the apps? Well, they're uncomfortable and like, I don't like that, you know, these people ghost or they don't answer. And I'm like, oh, but you think approaching someone in the wild that you have no idea, at least on a app. I have a baseline of knowing that you want to fuck me, right? You think I'm attractive. We swiped versus in the wild, I'm walking up, I don't know, you could have a wife, you could be, you know, you could do whatever, you could be gay, it could be a thousand things.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  That doesn't scare, that doesn't make you uncomfortable. And so I think what gives us this ease of like, well, I don't have to do it. Oh, I could just stay single. I don't have to be bothered. And I think what the apps have really done is like, they've triggered us, but then they also allow you to avoid your triggers. Because in dating, it's messy, it's ugly, it's rejection, you're dealing all of these things, but you can also grow. And I think, yeah, back in the day when my parents met, it was like, oh, that's nice. Like, you could just meet someone through a friend. And it's like, then on that same token, we have a lot of divorce, because a lot of people got married saying, I don't want to keep doing this. So let's just make this work.

• 18:40Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  So I think we also have to look at like, are you being a better buyer? And like, are you actually invested in your health and wellness and growth? Because I was on the apps, I started when I was like 18 and a half, like, they came out when I was there. And I was like, oh, what's this? I met my partner on Hinge. I'm a different version of myself than the girl that used to date on those apps, because you have to learn and grow, otherwise you'll be 60 and still swiping in the same way. Because is it easier to avoid doing the work? Yeah. Yeah, just get back on the app. But how fulfilling is that?

• 19:07Mark Manson?

  Hmm. Yeah.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  Have you ever, because I know you didn't, but have you gone on like your friends' apps and stuff to see what it's like?

• 19:13Mark Manson?

  I mean, I've, I've watched my friends do it. And it's funny, there was a period in my life, it was fun, my wife and I, we met, I think, like, six months before Tinder came out.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 19:23Mark Manson?

  And then while we were dating, all of our friends were getting on Tinder. And it was so cool at the time, like, everybody loved it so much, that my wife and I, we used to joke, we're like, maybe we should break up for a week, just like, do the Tinder thing, and then we'll get back together. And, but it's funny, because it fast forward, like, five, six, seven years, and, and all of our friends were like, oh, my God, you guys are so lucky, you got out just in time.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:46Mark Manson?

  You caught the last train out of the station.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they're running behind, ragged. And that's the thing, it's like, the casino is always gonna win, right? Like, the apps are made to, there to make money. But that doesn't mean you still can't also, like, trick the system, you know?

• 19:59Mark Manson?

  It's like any piece of technology, it's, it's more about how you use it.

• 20:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:03Mark Manson?

  It's not, it's not like, gonna fix your life for you. You have to be conscious on how you use it and how you implement it.

• 20:10Speaker 03

  You guys have completely got ahead of me. Didn't read the homework.

• 20:13Mark Manson?

  We're fucking Drew's.

• 20:14Speaker 03

  I tell you didn't read the assignment.

• 20:16Mark Manson?

  Drew's docket is, oh, my God.

• 20:18Speaker 03

  Our next segment is brilliant or bullshit.

• 20:20Speaker 01

  In all due fairness, I didn't really finish college, so that's not.

• 20:25Speaker 03

  It's all good. Now we know why. Thank you. Mark and I partied through college too much, too. We forgot a lot. I was drunk. I don't remember.

• 20:38Speaker 03

  Okay, this is what I want to do for Brilliant or Bullshit. This is the segment. Rein us in. We decide. Yes, please.

• 20:45Speaker 03

  God, trying to keep you on the rails as always. I know. Brilliant or bullshit, though. Sabrina, we do, we'll introduce an article or a research study or something like that, and we talk about whether it's brilliant or bullshit. For you, the brilliant or bullshit is about dating apps, okay? There's been some recent data. Yes, you said that 68% of people meet on an app now. There's some recent data, though, that is suggesting that maybe apps have kind of peaked a little bit, right? So in from 2020, there were about 287 million downloads of dating apps worldwide. That's down to 237 million, down 50 million in just three years. That's in 2023. Number of users has went down as well. People aren't as willing to pay. The profits are either growing very slowly or going down.

• 21:31Speaker 03

  And there has been an increase in offline meetups. Like Eventbrite has seen a 42% increase in attendance in in-person single events just in 2023 alone, a 42% jump.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 21:43Speaker 03

  So now, that said, there are some like niche apps and things that are doing pretty well. Field, which is like the polyamorous one, Grindr for gay men, that sort of thing. Where do you land on dating apps in general? Brilliant, bullshit? You can punt a little bit and say both and tell us why. That's okay.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  I'm gonna have to do the lame one and go both. And I'll tell you why. Because I met my partner in an app, so I can't totally poo poo it and be like, they're fucking terrible. Except for the one. So I think, I think what's happened, though, and so I've been, I'll do fairness, I've been off the apps for two years. And so I've, what I've seen, because it's kind of that same thing. What I've seen is like, the apps have gone, we've got, we've skewed so far from what the intention of it was. Like Bumble came out saying, you know what? We realize women don't want to make the first move. And it's like, yo, that was what your fucking app was. But that's the base.

• 22:29Speaker 03

  That was the selling point.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  Mark, you coming out and being like, I'm not gonna curse anymore. And you're like, what? What are you doing here? So it's like, I think that because the apps have, I think a lot of us have lost faith in the apps, right? Like we've, first of all, there's so many bots. It's like hard to even now navigate who's real and who's not. It's really difficult to even see, like, are the people intentional, right? I also think that, you know, we have this resurgence, like I was saying in the last year where everyone's like, I want to be off the apps. I want to meet people. And so Eventbrite's usually my go-to. I'll be great, go on Eventbrite, find things. Like when I moved to LA, I had to like a high club. I went to pottery. My partner's a big cook. He says, go to the farmer's market. You see a guy there on a Sunday morning alone. It's a good on shot.

• 23:09Mark Manson?

  Heroin's apparently, if, if, if, if something ever happens to my wife, I'm just gonna go stand in the middle of heroin.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna lie. That was my playground when I lived here. I would go to heroin and sit outside and just look like a snack and just wait to see everybody come towards me.

• 23:27Speaker 03

  Yes. But this is, this is the thing though. So, uh, Mark's, you've never used a dating app, I don't think, right?

• 23:32Mark Manson?

  No.

• 23:33Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I've been off them for six years. Even though I'm single, I just haven't used them for six years. So I have no idea what's going on. So that's why we're asking you about this too. The bots, that wasn't a thing when I was using them back in 2017, you know?

• 23:43Speaker 01

  So many. It's like overwhelming. You're like, oh, or, you know, Hinge hired it. So Tinder had a $500 membership. Fuck, get fucked. $500.

• 23:52Speaker 03

  $500 for Tinder?

• 23:53Speaker 01

  $500 for Tinder. That was released last year. Hinge hired their price, I think it starts at 50 and it goes up to like 150. And that's, I think, and like, I think what a lot of people are seeing is like, there's a misconception. Women seem to think like, there's so many options. And it's like, apps are usually like 70% men, actually. It's a predominant male-driven app, but it's a lot of men that the women are not, you know, it's like-

• 24:15Mark Manson?

  It's all the men that are scumbags and-

• 24:18Speaker 01

  It's a lot of trash, right? We'll just say that. And so I think, you know, there's also that kind of component as well, is that there's a lot of, there are a lot of people. It's not like, you know, when I met my partner, he was not my type. And it's not a negative. It's not like he was not, I wasn't attracted to him, but he's not the cookie cutter fucking same thing I always went for. That I think is what we, is what I personally mean by like, be a better buyer. Like, if you're matching with somebody and you're going on and you're like, oh, they're just hot. It's like, okay, well then what do you think is gonna happen in the depth of this conversation? And you can't be shocked when, oh wow, you want the guy that's 6'5", blue eyes, finance, all of that stuff. And it's like, oh, shocker. He didn't want to go, he doesn't want a relationship.

• 24:53Mark Manson?

  He doesn't text you back and he's seen five other girls? Oh.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  Crazy.

• 24:56Mark Manson?

  Who could've guessed?

• 24:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I didn't see that coming. And so I think that's also the element is like, 90% are going for the 1% and then are getting so upset when it doesn't happen. But yet, if we really think about the day-to-day, like when I lived in LA, don't get me wrong, there's attractive people, not to the extent on the apps that I was seeing where you're like, oof, babe after babe. You don't walk around seeing that many people. And so I also think the apps have really caused this like just unrealistic expectation of like what the dating market is. And you're like, babe, you're no, you're not fucking Blake Lively. You're not going to get a Ryan Reynolds. Like, let's also just be cognizant of like what it is that we're coming with. And then what it is that you're gonna get.

• 25:33Mark Manson?

  Yeah. You touched on two different theories that I I've had at different points. One is my primary one, when I look at dating apps and I talk to all my friends who use dating apps and they're really frustrated with them. The first thing that I noticed is that I I think the dating apps are unintentionally nudging people in the sorting and filtering in ways that are not helpful.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:54Mark Manson?

  Yeah, one of the most obvious and common things is that we just, it's what you just said, we don't actually know what we want. We think we we want this list of traits in a person, but the the the person that we actually end up attracted to is often completely different. Or the person who's actually good for us ends up being completely, completely different than that. You know, when I think about a lot of the the women I've dated in my life, probably half of them I wouldn't have swiped right on, right? It's like I met them through a friend or I met them at a party. And it was over the course of multiple hours that I started to become attracted to them. And after a couple of dates, I started to like realize things about them that were really interesting or intriguing. So the the the apps skew that, they they mask that, they don't allow you to filter for the correct things that actually work in a relationship. I I agree with you about the skewed expectations.

• 26:38Mark Manson?

  The bot thing is super interesting and I, you know, one thing, I just had this thought while you were talking. If you look at any sort of platform or social network online, anything from Facebook to Twitter to YouTube to whatever, there is always a small minority of people who fucking ruin it for everybody else. Like, like the threshold of the amount of bad actors required to fuck a platform is actually extremely small. You really only need like one or 2% of people on any given platform to be total assholes and and and. Terrorists to ruin the platform for everybody else. And I get the sense that that is what's happened with the dating app is that there's

• 27:23Mark Manson?

  just a small minority of people who are really bad actors, who probably swipe on right on 2,000 different people and then are just like sending dick pics and like sending offensive shit. And it ruins, it ruins the experience for everybody else.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  And we also have to remember too, like, what are the apps actually doing? Dopamine, right? You're in that reward drug, like this is a drug. I mean, I, my ass is on my phone and I'm like, Sabrina, stop. Like, you don't need this. And it's like, and I don't even, you know, like, how many times have we, like, you close the app just to open it right back up like four seconds later? Like, I, the amount of times I've done that without noticing is concerning. And so when we think about the dating apps, what I also really see, and it's like, I'd be curious your thoughts, because you joined before and you're not on them. The, almost like fetishization, I want to say, but like this proclivity of these digital relationships, right? Like, it's just, there's so much emphasis on like, I want to be texting and why am I not seeing their name pop up on my phone? And why aren't they contacting me? I haven't heard from them. That like, I either get when people are like, quick to make a plan, like, I'm that type.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  We talk, my partner and I talk for an hour and then he was like, hey, let me get your number, like, let's go to dinner.

• 28:24Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  Done, great, let's do this. Off the phone, met this person, yay. But there are people that'll go two, three months with texting every day, or like, I'll get rid of the week, we spoke every single day, we had four hour FaceTimes and calls and blah, blah. And then he told me he doesn't want a relationship. It's like, because digital nonsense doesn't equate to that person. They're writing a check, but that doesn't mean they're cashing it.

• 28:45Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  And I see that so much with the digital landscape is that I think the, the apps allow you to get into this fantasy, right?

• 28:52Mark Manson?

  Totally.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  Like, I was her, I would be walking down the street and all of a sudden you get the match and it's like, your heart is racing. You're like, oh my God, is he going to message me? And then he does, and you're like, I don't know when we're going to go back. It's just this high. And then leave it to my brain, I'm already planning our wedding, right? I'm already going into like, he's been to Aspen, oh my God, I've never been to Aspen, I want to go there. And then before I even met this guy, I, I have created this entire fantasy. So we can't be shocked that you're so gutted and devastated when it doesn't work out, when you've already planned your wedding and then this person doesn't even show up for a date.

• 29:21Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  So I think that's just that, that grief, like this sensitivity to rejection, and I get it, nobody wants to be rejected, but I also think like, that is part of life, right? Like, we have to toughen up. When you used to go out and approach women that would walk off.

• 29:34Mark Manson?

  Fucking sucks.

• 29:37Mark Manson?

  It was, it was rough. Yeah. The, the texting thing is really interesting because it's, it is, it's a fat simile of intimacy, but it's not real intimacy. It's like an imagined intimacy and you get to, you get to create this drama in your head, but real intimacy is messy and uncomfortable and kind of awkward and it, you know, yeah, it's not, it's not what you see in, in, in the romantic comedies or anything like that.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  It's not glamorous at all.

• 30:01Mark Manson?

  It's not. It's really not. What I tend to notice, you know, people who kind of perpetually struggle with their relationships, there's, there's, I don't want to call it childish, but it is childish. There's a childish attachment to, uh, just worshiping romance and, and like prioritizing it above everything else. When actually, I mean, romance is great. Don't get me wrong. Like big fan of romance, but it's not, it's not even near the top of the totem pole.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  My friend, Britt Frank is a brilliant neuropsychotherapist and she always taught me the love addict, right? Like the person that's addicted. She's like, their biggest fear is an abandonment. It's intimacy. That's why they're addicted to it because you can just bounce, bounce, bounce. But true intimacy, for like you're saying, I didn't feel intimate with my partner, not even just physically, emotionally, because we were texting all the time and I was creating, it's like, I felt that intimacy because he said something to me. It pissed me off. I answered and he validated me and I was like, ah, I feel so seen. I feel so comfortable with you. That was intimacy. I feel safe to express myself and say, you're being an asshole. Please don't do that. And he said, you're right. I'm sorry. I owe you an apology. Thank you. That to me is that intimacy versus this, we're planning the fucking stars in the sky and we're talking about all these things. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. They want you to go and meet

• 31:10Speaker 01

  their family, but you still have yet to know their last name. Like there is a grave disconnect and it's easy, right? It's fun. You get to write this entire novel. That's not going to actually come out.

• 31:19Mark Manson?

  I never thought about that before. That like apps enabling love addiction, uh, or romance addiction. Like I could totally see that.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:27Speaker 03

  Well, that was, that was why I, a big reason I got off of them. I think more of what you're talking about where. People wanted that digital relationship and there was kind of this addiction to it. And I was always just like, we would match and I'd be like, do you want to meet? I don't want to sit here and text back and forth. And so many of them, no, no, no, I want to text back and forth. I'm like, I do not, I just don't want to do it. And then, and then a couple of years after, just within the last couple of years, I guess I've seen like ads for, oh, here's an AI app to help your dating profile. And I'm like, are you fucking kidding me?

• 31:56Speaker 01

  Don't even start.

• 31:57Speaker 03

  Changes your picture, changes your relationship, it writes your profile for you. I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? This is what people are doing now.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  You know what's next? Oh, no, no, you know what apps are coming out now? Cause we were, like, my partner and I were part of one and it shifted and we were like, we're out, we're not doing this.

• 32:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  It's writing, it writes the messages for you.

• 32:12Speaker 03

  Oh, God.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  And like, it's just funny, I remember I had a client and he was not, he was like in his sixties and he, oh, he loved to date his 20 year olds. And I was like, oh, Jesus, like, oh, shocker that this didn't work out. And so we were on a call one day and we're doing, he's like, can you help me do my profile? And so the way I like to work is I'll like type it out and I kind of need to think and I'll send it over like, okay, this would be a good prompt. I didn't know he was just copying and pasting everything I did. And so it's this beautiful, thought provoking profile. I mean, I did a damn good job writing this. And then he, like in the next session, he's like, you know, I, I don't understand, I'm not having luck on the apps. Like I'm getting so many matches. And I'm like, okay, can you show me a couple of the messages? And it's like this beautiful prompt that the woman responded to and it's just, hey, sexy. I'm like, oh, my God. And it's like that where it's, you can, you can mask it, right?

• 32:55Speaker 01

  And it's like, I think what we also need to remember too, cause I hear this every day of like, men just say what a woman wants to hear. And it's like, so you're that unoriginal? You think that he just knows everything you specifically, me, Sabrina Zohar wants to hear? Cause like, maybe you don't. And I think what we really need to understand is like, come home to yourself. I'd rather be rejected for me as I am than be rejected for this version that I am, that's not even fucking me.

• 33:17Mark Manson?

  Yeah. I saw, uh, there was a, am I the asshole Reddit thread the other day? And it, it was super interesting, actually. So it was a guy saying that, uh, he, him and his girlfriend, every time that him and his girlfriend had a fight, she would go leave the room, get on chat GPT.

• 33:36Mark Manson?

  Basically describe the fight to ChatGPT and ask ChatGPT for rebuttals and like arguments against her boyfriend. And then she would come back 30 minutes later with this like perfect outlined argument with like bullet point explanations of all the reasons why he's wrong. And he said, he was like, I've asked her to stop using ChatGPT in our in our personal arguments. And she she says, I'm being sensitive and I'm refusing to admit that I'm wrong and all these things that he's like, am I the asshole? I was just like, holy shit. What world are we coming into?

• 34:09Speaker 01

  I'm curious, what were the comments?

• 34:10Mark Manson?

  I didn't look at the comments, but I

• 34:12Speaker 01

  That's the concerning part for me is when the people are like, you are the asshole. And you're like,

• 34:16Mark Manson?

  no, no, no. I feel like my experience is that the am I the asshole subreddit is like their compass is usually pretty aligned.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  God, and there's some hope for humanity.

• 34:26Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  But no, it's true. I see that every day of like, even I've had podcast guests on where I'm like, man, your content's amazing. And then in person, you're like, oh, you don't actually know any of this. Like you scripted the entirety of this, but you can't have an honest conversation with me where we're coming up with our own ideas.

• 34:42Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  And that's that disconnect. And that's why my partner and I left the app we were working on. I was like, I want to teach you how to fish. We have got to stop just giving the fish.

• 34:49Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  Because we're seeing it. You know, you start to look like Gen Z is going to be that stops in 2027. That's officially like Ben, we're officially into alpha. And now what that means is like, wait a minute. So we already are looking, or I apologize, alpha is done in 2027, then the next one. So already you're going fucking beta at this point, or whatever's next, I'm assuming.

• 35:09Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  So if we even just look at generationally, it's like, okay, millennials, right? We did a lot. Like there's the Gen and the millennials. But then if I look between millennials and Gen Z, it's a huge disconnect of like, I don't owe you anything. I did a video that went viral instead of ghosting, say this. And it hurt my soul. How many people were like, I'd rather ghost than get this. It sounds like HR. And it's like, yo, dude, it's just a fucking blunt and direct, hey, I'm not interested in pursuing this. Take care. I don't want to waste any more of your time.

• 35:34Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  But that one girl said, why would I send that if I would be so heartbroken to receive that? Why would I want to hurt someone else? And I was like, I'm sorry, what? And it's just, we are in, we're getting more and more fragile of this, like, I can't handle anything on my own. The internet, someone else needs to validate me, and we're getting further away from ourselves. I've used ChatGPT before. That shit does not know what the fuck they're talking about all the time. So if you're basing your arguments on that.

• 36:00Mark Manson?

  ChatGPT is literally the average of all human experience. Therefore, it is mediocrity embodied. So if we just put it into code.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  It's true. Like, if we rely on a crutch like that, then we want, we can't be surprised why human connection is becoming sparser. Because we're attaching, we're not connecting. It's like, I need you, I don't want you. I have to have you in my life. It's fear, it's anxiety, I need this. Versus connecting is like, it's slow, it takes a minute. I need to know who you are, I need emotional safety, I need intimacy, I need trust. And I think we've really gotten further and further from that, because, I mean, let's also be honest, I'm 34, I don't have kids, not sad about that by any means. We are now in a generation where that's cool, right? I could be in my mid-30s and not have kids, but then we're between, like, what is the world and the internet saying? And the body count conversations and the red pill bullshit. It's like, we have a lot of noise.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  So if ChatGPT is where you're getting the sum of all the parts, I'm a little worried.

• 36:55Mark Manson?

  Yeah. The point you brought up about the emotional safetyism, I definitely see that more in Gen Z, but this prioritization of emotional comfort over anything else. This idea that if something is upsetting, or hurtful, or uncomfortable, then that, protecting you from that sets priority above everything else. You know, fuck honest communication, fuck sharing your values, standing for something, having integrity. If it makes somebody uncomfortable, then it shouldn't be done. I think that it's just such a wrong way to approach life in so many ways. And I think relationships in particular, more than anything else in life, fundamentally

• 37:37Mark Manson?

  requires discomfort, upset, being willing to upset somebody and be upset by somebody, and be able to handle that maturely as an adult, and not just like, fucking fly off the handle. And it worries me, I mean, this, this kind of...

• 37:54Mark Manson?

  This precedence of emotional safetyism, I see it having pernicious effects all across society in a bunch of different domains, but relationships literally can't function if you're not willing to be uncomfortable around somebody else. Like, that is, in many ways, the definition of intimacy.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 38:11Mark Manson?

  Is being willing to be uncomfortable around somebody else. And get hurt, yeah.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, and just be messy and ugly and yourself, right? And be loved for that. Well, it's the same as like, there's this artist, I don't fucking know who these people are, I don't keep up with like, the pop culture stuff, but she canceled her tour because like, she was having, she said, "My mental health needs it." And then when you actually look back, like, "What do you mean, your mental health needs it? It's your fucking job. You're a musician. Like, you need to go out." And it was because she made a statement politically and people gave her backlash. And she said, "Well, you know, it hurt me." And it's like, "I'm sorry, what fucking alternate reality are you in that I could just say, 'Well, I don't like what you said to me, so I'm just gonna cancel my entire everything.'"

• 38:46Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  And that's okay. And then you see the polarizing. Some people attacking her, saying, "How could you do this?" And then there's people defending her, saying, "Well, she's protecting her mental health." But then we have to look at, where's the line, right? Where are we so disconnected from reality that we're like, "What do you mean, your mental health?" And then when is it like, "Hey, I think you should prioritize your mental health."

• 39:03Mark Manson?

  Right. I mean, there is, yeah, there is a certain point where canceling your own job, harming your career, fucking over thousands of fans to protect your mental health is a sign of poor mental health. Like,

• 39:19Speaker 01

  We need better advisors.

• 39:21Mark Manson?

  A functional person doesn't protect their mental health by just like, ending everything they're doing in their life and sitting at home on the couch and bed rotting or whatever.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  Right. And it's like, and that's, to your point, it's like, and that's relationships now. It's just like, "I don't wanna deal with this. This is hard. I don't like it. I'm uncomfortable." And it's like, "Yeah, but that's how you grow."

• 39:38Mark Manson?

  I really feel like we've, we've overcorrected as a culture. And that like, if you look 50 to 100 years ago, everything was like, toughen up, stop complaining, you know, just get on with it.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:50Mark Manson?

  You know, it was just like, trauma everywhere. And people were like, Bearing it, suppressing it, you know, pushing it down. And I think, I think we've gone too far to the other side today where it's like, oh, I'm uncomfortable. I'm not going to go to work today.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, like it's hot. I'm just not going to go outside. And you're like, just go for the fucking walk. Like, just do something. A hundred percent. And it's, it bums me out because I think, and that's personally why I think like, when I came out creating content, it was different, right? It's because I'm the first to be like, oh, wow. Oh, my God, that guy treated you like shit. Okay, what was your part in this? And it's like this, whoa, what do you mean, my, were you blaming me? Never said blame, never said shame, never attacked you for it. I'm asking for accountability. Because that's what, for me, that's what changed my fucking life was when I stopped blaming my external, it's happening to me. No, it's happening for me. Girl, open your fucking eyes and start to see the lay of the land. Because if I didn't lose everything that I lost, I wouldn't have gained everything that I gained along the way. And if I had stayed comfortable and stayed safe, I would probably still be living

• 40:47Speaker 01

  in my mold ridden apartment in Venice. Really, really sad. And probably health getting even worse.

• 40:53Mark Manson?

  We heard all about the mold ridden apartment before we went live.

• 40:58Speaker 01

  You guys are on this journey with me.

• 41:00Mark Manson?

  That's another podcast.

• 41:02Speaker 03

  It does go back to the agency thing you were talking about, though. You, that's the main part. And so I think, yeah, so we're landing on dating apps, somewhere in between, it sounds like, even though we just shit all over them for the past 15 minutes.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  I think there's a, it's a blessing and a curse, right? Like, I think you can win and you can lose. But I think ultimately, at the end of the day, if I can succinctly say this, regulate your nervous system, do the fucking work on yourself. And it's a, it's in addition to, it's not instead of. And too many people put everything on the app. And it's like, yo, use it passively. Allow it to be on your phone like every other app that there is, but it doesn't define you. And I think that's, we need to remove the importance we put on these apps for us to be able to interact with these apps appropriately.

• 41:42Mark Manson?

  I wonder what a functional dating app would actually look like. You know, the price increase, I find intriguing. Because, allow me to defend it for a second. It creates a barrier to entry, right? So a lot of the riffraff and the poor actors and the bots and everything, if it's 50 bucks a month, it's not going to be worth it for those people. Whereas the people who are way more serious and actually are going to put a lot of conscious thought into it, they'll probably be more likely to spend that much money. I also just imagine that like some sort of universal catch-all dating app probably isn't possible. Like you probably need to segment it in certain ways. So you need to segment people by communities or religious beliefs or backgrounds or, you

• 42:28Mark Manson?

  know, whatever. That's why the niche apps, I think, are.

• 42:30Speaker 01

  Well, and but are you guys familiar with those? Are we dating the same guy Facebook groups?

• 42:34Mark Manson?

  Oh, yeah, I've heard.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  Well, I was like, let's just even touch on that. It's the same thing I feel about that is like when I was screening my dating app, we were like, I want to be about intentional daters. And people would write in going, well, you know, you shouldn't let people on there that like do this. And it's like, okay, but here's the thing, that's your perspective, right? This person did all these things. And I'm like, but I could talk to 20 other women that maybe they dated and maybe that wasn't their experience. Who am I to say, Mark, you're not allowed in? Nope, because you're not intentional enough. And it's like, well, just because I said I want a relationship didn't mean I want one with Drew. That could mean I want one with someone else. Where is the line, right? And so I think if we niche, love the niche of like, hey, it's for this. Where it becomes blurry is this like same thing as those Facebook groups. I think I get it. I understand why they exist, but I also on the other side have a huge issue with them

• 43:20Speaker 01

  because some people have lost their jobs. And it's like, why was he losing his job? Because you guys had a fight personally at home.

• 43:25Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  And I think we, you know, we're trying to control too much. Like, I think if we can niche it like, listen, there's a sugar daddy website? Good, go, that's where you go for this. When it comes to the dating apps, I think you're right. If we make this one size fits all, everybody fits in here. It's like, well, they don't. But then I'm like, okay, how can we make this about more intentionality? Okay, well, what if you just have money and you could buy into it? And it's like, you know what? It goes back to, I gotta trust myself. I gotta trust my gut that if I see Mark on the app and I'm like, oh, he paid on here. Oh, wait, I'm not going to assume that he's here for the right reasons. And I'm not going to assume that he wants me like that. I'm going to go and say, hey, it's just another way to meet somebody that might be like-minded. I think you see what I'm saying? It's like, we gotta. I love all of these things. We got to also be cognizant of how we're interacting with them

• 44:10Speaker 01

  too, because I think that's 90% of the battle.

• 44:12Speaker 03

  Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Well, cool. Um, let's take a break. Sure.

• 44:24Speaker 03

  All right, we're back. Uh, we've got some audience questions. We do. We have one in particular from Lauren on YouTube, and we've touched on a few of these themes already, so we can kind of tie this all together, I think. Uh, it was a very long question, so I've edited it down. So Lauren, I hope we're getting- Haven't you noticed relationship questions are like, oh, small books?

• 44:44Speaker 01

  Dissertations?

• 44:45Speaker 03

  Yes. That's especially through emails, but this one was even a YouTube comment, and it was pretty long. But, uh, it's a good one. So Lauren says, "I'm 29 and have been single for six years after working through codependency issues from past relationships. Now, my standards are so fucking high, but I'm frustrated with the dating scene as most men I seem to me are immature or irresponsible. A lot of them seem to want a mommy, not a partner. And the few men that I have clicked with don't want long-term exclusive relationships. How do I stay patient and optimistic while searching for a genuine compatible partner without feeling disillusioned?" I think there's probably a larger question of expectations in here that we can hit on too.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  I was about to say, now here. Thank you for writing in, and we appreciate all this, and I say this with love. There's a grave fucking disconnect. Oh, all the guys that you like, oh, they don't want the things that you do. But yeah, these other people you're not interested in, there's a disconnect. Because then if you're, what are you attracted to these people that don't want the same things as you? Right? You've done all this work, right? And you're showing up like that. How, what questions are we asking on the first date? Are we gauging consistency? Consistency doesn't mean for all my girls that this guy texts you every single day at the same time. That means reliability, words and actions are aligning. So we really want to start to like zoom out a little bit. And for me, I would look and go, wait, I have some holes here. But in general, how do you stay hopeful in things? It's like, okay, well, this is part of doing the work. Like you had said earlier about like the mental health comment. When you do the work, you know, there's a

• 46:08Speaker 01

  lot of people that aren't. And that you understand that it's not something personal and that- Yeah, if I'm gonna be going out and dating, I know I might be something unique and different, but I also know that that person exists out there. And so I'm not gonna be upset if it doesn't work out with these schmoes that I'm meeting on the internet. And I think that's that expectation management that we were also talking about of, I get it, hey, it's frustrating. You can feel upset, like, please have it, be annoyed. But we also have to remember, that doesn't mean that tomorrow you might not meet somebody. And so if you're disillusioned and you're going out and it's always, well, everybody wants a mommy, cognitive bias, we have to start to look, what kind of buyer are you being then? And who are these people you're going out with?

• 46:43Mark Manson?

  To me, the, the red flag is, is every man I connect with doesn't want to settle down and have a long-term relationship. And it's like, well, why are you connecting with those? Like, what do you, what, to your, use your language, what are you shopping for? Right? Maybe you should try to connect with a different type of person.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  Well, usually too, it's like, let's think about it. Those guys that don't want the relationship, it's like, let me guess, he was charming? He was really lovely?

• 47:06Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 47:07Speaker 01

  He was not super emotional, was a little bit more reserved. It's like, yeah, because this person does not want that. So they're not letting you in. And that's where I'd be like, what are you connecting on?

• 47:14Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 47:15Speaker 01

  Because are they really letting you in? But they're not being that vulnerable because they don't want a relationship. Okay. So then, like you said.

• 47:20Mark Manson?

  They're probably fun and exciting and they go to lots of cool parties and, you know, whatever.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  You know the type.

• 47:26Mark Manson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 47:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. I was like, I've probably been the type before, too.

• 47:28Mark Manson?

  Yeah. I, I was that guy for a long time.

• 47:31Speaker 03

  I tried to be.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  Did you? And Drew's like, nah.

• 47:36Speaker 03

  Well, all right. Okay. Simple question. Are expectations just too fucking hi? Are they unrealistic? Are they, where are we, where are we at with that? Because I think, you know, on, on, for men, it's like, you know, they're watching porn and they're seeing, you know, they're, they think that's a relationship, a lot of men do. For women, you know, the six foot five, blue eyes, finance guy. Are expectations just completely out of whack right now?

• 48:01Speaker 01

  Well, we also have to think too, like, when you have an expectation, you also need to fucking communicate that, right? Like, you have to let, like, if I expect my partner to call me, I'm gonna tell him that I expect that, hey, I would need you to call me every single night, right? Whatever, I don't know. So I think that's also the thing is we have these high expectations and then these high expectations are in an adult body and then the nervous system and the brain are in the baby brain. So I might have high expectations, but then I'm on a date with Mark and all of a sudden I go back to being a six-year-old who's talking to dad and I can't ask for that. I can't ask for a need. No, no, I don't want to be too much. Okay, so you have these high expectations, but nobody can meet them because you don't know how to express yourself about them. Or the pendulum swings. We're so rigid. We're so like, if you don't do this at this time. The number one thing I hear, the number one

• 48:42Speaker 01

  fucking thing I hear every day is it's it's not, it's just one text. It just takes 10 seconds. And it's like, no, it's not. That's your expectation. Did you articulate to this person? Is that a non-negotiable? Nah. I didn't think good morning was going to be something that was going to make or break your fucking life. And that's not how you're getting to know this person. What does it mean, though? Those expectations are usually unmet needs. Because if I expect that Mark's gonna text me, sorry, Mark, you and I are dating in this scenario and

• 49:04Mark Manson?

  All right.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  It's okay. It would be be cute. And so, sorry, Drew. But like, if Mike, Mark and I Single again. Oh, God. If we combined our podcast, though, this would be amazing. I didn't even mean it.

• 49:19Mark Manson?

  I'm sorry, Sabrina. I'm not really looking to settle down anytime soon.

• 49:23Speaker 01

  Oh, God, you really are those guys.

• 49:25Mark Manson?

  You know, we can go have, hang out and have fun.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  We can go have fun. I'm totally, we couldn't like totally down to like kick it. Just go with the flow, right? But like, I don't even fucking remember the point I was trying to make. But the moral of the story is like, yes, if I expect, expectations, if I expect you to text me every day, that's because I have unmet needs. And if I'm not, if I'm not expressing that versus non-negotiables. Hey, I don't deal with inconsistency. I need reciprocity. I need fucking baseline of respect. I need these aspects. Those you cannot do without religion, politics, whatever. Everybody has theirs free. That's, I think, the difference. We need to understand our non-negotiables and our, what are we not willing to settle for? Versus our expectations, because you're like, eh, satisfy your own needs.

• 50:07Mark Manson?

  Yeah. I think one of the challenges for a lot of people is they're afraid to communicate the expectations because they understand that that's going to filter a lot of people out and they don't want to feel rejected. You know, it's like if you tell a guy, hey, I kind of feel like I want more communication from you. I'd love it if you texted me every day. And then he just says, all right, peace. You know, that feels really bad. And so I think people avoid that for that reason. And then I think the other reason is just it's people don't communicate expectations effectively. Like they'll say they communicated their expectations, but then it's like a very blame like, well, you're you should do this because this is what I need. And if you're if you want to be with me, you need to text me and do these things. And like, that feels shitty is the other person.

• 50:51Mark Manson?

  Like, there's like a very important skill of communicating your expectations in a way that's like, not judgmental, not blaming, retaining responsibility for them. Like, just, hey, letting you know, like, this is important to me, and I'd really love it if you did this. And just leave the ball in their court and not have this like, fucking drama explosion over it.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  What I hear a lot, it's like self abandonment, right? I don't want, I don't know if I say something, because Mark and I are dating, if I say something to Mark, and he like walks away and leaves, oh, well, then I'm rejected. And you're like, wait a minute, being rejected by definition is being ridiculed or judged for who you are. Okay, well, that's a need. Let me ask you a question, not you, the hyper, the proverbial you. Let me ask you a question. When was the last time you expressed your need as a kid that you remember feeling like this? Oh, well, when I would ask my dad, there it is. You're scared, you're self abandoning, because if I take ownership and say, no, no, no, like, I can't ask that. And it's like, well, where did I learn that from? Who taught me that my needs are too much? Okay, that was messaging I learned early on. And so that's what I mean by like, we have these adult expectations in a child's brain. And not to anyone, it's just really that going back into the amygdala and being like, I'm scared, I don't want to say anything.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  So I'll just self abandon and I'll do everything to be the cool girl, because the cool girl is going to get him to like me. And it's like, nah, because it's one dimensional. That's why the nice guy, nobody likes the nice guy. That's your personality? I like, I find it so goddamn hot. Set a boundary. Tell me no. I want you to say, when my partner said, no, I'm not going to text you. I was like, ooh. Like, okay.

• 52:18Mark Manson?

  Talk dirty to me.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Seriously. Because it shows where I'm like, you care about your mental health and your well being and you have no, you're not scared to lose me. And that is really fucking hot when it's like, oh, so you do want me in your life. You don't need me in your life. Boundaries don't keep people out, they protect what's in. If I set a boundary with you, Mark, that's because I'd want to keep you in my life, not because I want you gone. That's kind of what we were saying. I'd much rather you articulate and get fucking rejected for that and be like, great, I'm not wasting my sleep on an emotionally unavailable salmon, when there's a bunch of other fish I could go try to catch.

• 52:50Mark Manson?

  I like salmon.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  Do you? I'm not a salmon kind of girl.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  Even though I'm wearing it.

• 52:57Mark Manson?

  You're quite salmon today. Yeah, in my, in my dating book, Models, I, there's a whole chapter on rejection. And a lot of guys have told me over the years that it's one of the most powerful things for them when they read it. And it's basically reframing rejection as it's not, it's not about you. It's actually kind of the world's way of sorting the right people in and out of your life. And so if you tell a woman what you want and what you expect, and she disappears, she's actually doing you a favor. She's preventing, she's preventing multiple months of an unhappy relationship. And when you start seeing it that way, then I don't know. It took a while for me, but when I started seeing it that way, I was like, oh, this is actually a good thing.

• 53:42Mark Manson?

  Like, the more I express myself and the more women just who aren't interested turn it down, the better my life ends up.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  Rejection's redirection. It really is. I couldn't agree more. How many times, even thinking of my career, how many times I've got, I've said no to some, someone said no to me on something? And then when you see it, you're like, thank God that didn't happen. That was awful, right? Like, I wouldn't want to be part of this. Because it really is, if we can empower ourselves of like, hey, I used to tell my mom, I'm like, no, no, no. Here's my thing, either get the fuck in or get out. Don't block the door. Because I will happily open it for you and get you out if I know. Like we talked, we bring it full circle to what you said earlier. People don't know what they want. And so if I know what I need in a relationship and here, you know, I ask people all the time, like, what do you want in a relationship? And they'll just go like, I want someone to do stuff with. Okay. What, what stuff is that? Um, you know, like, go out. Okay. Go out where? Does this mean you're gonna go out with friends or just alone? Okay. Do they have their own friend group? I don't know. I didn't think about that. It's like,

• 54:34Speaker 01

  well, that's the type. What kind of life do you want to live? I knew with my partner, I want someone that cooks. I need someone that helps with acts of service. And so when he, our third date, when he was like, hey, I made you lunch because I know you don't eat. Oh, you better believe I was like, oh, my God. Because I was so clear on what I knew I needed and wanted that I could see it. And I was like, there he is. As opposed to flandering. I mean, like, I want the spark. And it's like, no, the spark is just your phalanges trying to get away. It's blood rushing to your extremities. So you could run. But the problem is, they're attractive. And so, but like, if you felt like you did with the spark with a homeless person on the street in LA, you'd be right. Right?

• 55:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  So I think we, that's really like, the meat and potatoes of it is like, fuck, learn yourself, understand yourself, know what you want to need. And then you can actually show up as that. And you're not scared of losing people for it.

• 55:18Speaker 03

  For sure. Well said.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  Take up space.

• 55:22Speaker 03

  Yeah. Love it. Sabrina, where can people find you? You got the podcast, you're on social media. Where can, where can people find you?

• 55:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're gonna have Mark on the Sabrina Zohar Show.

• 55:30Speaker 03

  Ah, make sure you catch that one.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  Oh, I can't wait. Yeah, you're gonna, I, whoo, we're gonna get all the mail feedback on that. I can't wait. And yeah, sabrina zohar.com or the Sabrina Zohar Show or sabrina.zohar on socials, you can find me.

• 55:43Speaker 03

  Cool. Cool. Awesome.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 55:45Speaker 03

  Thank you so much for coming. This was so much fun.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me, guys.

• 55:48Mark Manson?

  The Subtle Art of Not Getting a Fuck podcast is produced by Drew Burney, edited by Andrew Nishimura, Jessica Choys, our videographer and sound engineer. Thank you for listening, and we will see you next week.