Life-Changing Insights From Traveling To Every Country In The World (ft. Drew Binsky)

Drew Binsky is a fearless traveler who's seen it all. From chatting with North Koreans in their homeland to dodging bombings in Somalia and volunteering in Syria in the middle of a civil war, Drew's adventures are nothing short of incredible. He's been to every country in the world, witnessing the most dangerous places and surviving a few close calls. Yet, his experiences have led him to a surprising conclusion: most people, most of the time, are good. Even in the direst circumstances, Drew finds that human resilience can prevail. In our conversation, Drew shares why he's drawn to war zones and failed states, revealing the profound lessons he's learned from them. We discuss why you should never judge a country by the news you hear about it, how the most impactful trips are often the most challenging, and where to find the friendliest people on Earth. Drew also offers his top travel tips on spontaneity, connecting with locals, and what he looks for on his travel adventures. It's a deep dive into the heart of travel and human nature that might just inspire you to see the world a little differently. CHAPTERS Chapters 00:00:00 Introduction: The Man Who Visited Every Country 00:02:23 What's Actually Universal Across All Cultures 00:06:06 Inside North Korea: Tennis Invitations and Empty Hotels 00:09:06 How to Stay Safe in Dangerous Places 00:13:13 Syria During the War: Volunteering Among the Rubble 00:16:11 The Media Disconnect: Afghanistan, Iran, and Misunderstood Places 00:18:26 El Salvador, Brazil's Favelas, and the Safety Paradox 00:21:27 Living Abroad: The Best Education You Can Get 00:25:13 India: The Most Transformative Trip 00:27:14 The Extremes of India: Beauty and Horror on the Same Street 00:29:44 The Adrenaline Gene: Why Drew Doesn't Feel Fear 00:30:44 Mogadishu: The Most Dangerous City in the World 00:32:43 Mark's Close Call in Cartagena 00:37:21 Overrated or Underrated: Government, Culture, and War 00:43:45 The Best and Worst Thing About Every Country 00:41:18 Family Culture: The American Independence Paradox 00:47:40 The Quality of Information Crisis 00:50:39 What's Next and Finding Your Golf 00:55:56 Final Thoughts: The Value of Underserved Stories ⇨ Sign up for my newsletter, Your Next Breakthrough. It will help make you a less awful person: ⁠⁠⁠⁨https://markmanson.net/breakthrough⁩⁠⁠⁠ ⇨ Get clarity on what actually matters. Try Purpose, Mark's AI mentor app that learns your patterns, challenges your blind spots, and helps you take action. Get started at ⁠⁠⁠⁨https://bit.ly/4w46FMH⁠⁠⁠ FOLLOW MARK Mark's IG: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/markmanson⁠ Solved IG: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/solvedpodcast/⁠ Twitter: ⁠https://x.com/markmanson⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/markmanson/⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@IAmMarkManson

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mark Manson?

  If you could meet a North Korean, what would you say? If you were shot at in Somalia, what would you do? If you got attacked in the Congo, where would you go? Drew Binsky has experienced all of these things. He's a travel vlogger, a YouTuber, and an author. He's spoken to North Koreans in North Korea. He's eluded bombings in Somalia and visited Syria during the height of its civil war to volunteer and help civilians. Drew has been to every country in the world. He has seen the most dangerous places and survived the most destructive regimes. And that makes his message all the more surprising. Most people, most of the time, are good and happy. Most of them will help you even if they have nothing. According to Drew, human resilience and optimism has no bounds. Even in the worst places on earth, you will still find a heavy dose of hope.

• 0:45Mark Manson?

  Travel has been one of the most important parts of my personal journey. I've not been to as many countries as Drew has, but I have found no better education on humanity and human nature than visiting as many countries as possible and trying to understand their cultures. It teaches you what you believed to be universal was actually merely your own cultural bias, and the things that you thought were unique about your culture are actually kind of universal. It's one of the most important things that I've ever done for myself, and the education I got is still paying dividends today. And that's why, when I had the opportunity to have Drew on the show and hear his stories, I took it. In this episode, you will learn why Drew is drawn to war zones, failed states, and impoverished countries, and what he's learned from all of them.

• 1:27Mark Manson?

  Why you should never, ever judge a country or culture based on what you saw on the news. Why the most impactful trips are rarely the most fun, and why the most fun trips are rarely the most impactful. What Drew's favorite country in the world is, and which country had the biggest impact on him personally. Why the real damage of war cannot be measured in death tolls or economic statistics, and why you never hear about the true repercussions in the headlines, and where the friendliest people are in the world, and how they became that way. Drew also shares some of his basic travel tips on how to be more spontaneous, how to connect with locals, what he looks for when he travels. And much, much more. So enjoy this one. It made me a little bit nostalgic to get back on the road myself, but more about that soon. This is Drew Binsky. Let's get into it.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  Bro, do you even podcast like bro? This is the subtle art of not giving a fuck podcast with your host, Mark Manson.

• 2:23Mark Manson?

  Drew Binsky, thanks for coming to the show, man.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  It's a pleasure.

• 2:26Mark Manson?

  Nice to meet you.

• 2:27Speaker 02

  You as well.

• 2:27Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Why don't we start with kind of a broad philosophical question? What is universal in the world that most people assume is not?

• 2:36Speaker 02

  It's a good question. Everybody has a heartbeat and everyone's blood is red. So that's a lot of people like, aren't people different? Aren't you scared to go places? I'm like, everyone is generally friendly. So wherever you go in the world, people are going to look out for you. And then you hear about terrorism and you hear about things that bad people, but in general, like people are dying to meet you. They just don't get the chance to meet you. So that's kind of what I've realized from even like African tribes where you really don't have that much in common on the outside, but on the inside, they gotta find food. They gotta find a way to make money. They gotta sleep somewhere. They gotta send their kids to school. So that's kind of the main overarching thing that I've learned.

• 3:13Mark Manson?

  It's like basic human needs and desires.

• 3:16Speaker 02

  You don't necessarily realize that until you go to like South Sudan and you're sleeping with a tribe and you're just like, whoa. And like, they're just, the little kids are playing around and they're punching each other. And it's like, yeah, it's the same thing that you do when you were a kid.

• 3:27Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:28Speaker 02

  And it's really rewarding to see that.

• 3:30Mark Manson?

  What would you say, you know, especially going to these places where you're obviously a foreigner, what would you like, what percentage is the response immediately warm versus maybe tepid or skeptical or antagonistic?

• 3:47Speaker 02

  99% warm.

• 3:48Mark Manson?

  Wow.

• 3:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:49Mark Manson?

  Wow.

• 3:50Speaker 02

  The American thing, I don't really hide being American, maybe in some countries at certain times, I would, I would avoid it. Like if I went to Russia right now, I don't know, I might say I'm Canadian just to avoid, you know, extra questions, but like Iran's a great example. They love America. They love. Absolutely love. And you would think that they don't like America, or maybe the government, whatever, but I'm applying for my visa to go back for a third time. I really like it there. And they're super cool and they all have an uncle. I mean, we're in LA right now. I mean, there's like, there's a million Persians in Iran. It's the biggest Iranian influence outside of the country. But like, that's a great example of this wrong misconception. If people just love America and ask you questions about it, they grew up on TV and music. To answer your

• 4:34Speaker 02

  question, 99% of people would positively, yeah.

• 4:37Mark Manson?

  I actually ran into that in Russia as well. I mean, it's a little bit more polarized there, but I remember everybody, when I was in Russia, everybody, every Russian that I met was like so thrilled that I was, that I was American. And finally, I asked a couple of them. I was like, like, our governments hate each other. We just went through like 70 years of a Cold War, you know? And they were like, ah, it's like brothers. You beat each other up, but it's because you love each other. And I was like, okay.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like that, though. I mean, that's not just Russia, it's other places too.

• 5:08Mark Manson?

  Yeah, like here domestically, you know, the vast majority of us are not satisfied with our own government. We don't necessarily agree with all the things that our government does or stands for or says to other countries or other cultures. And so you, I think we forget that most people in the world are the same. Like, they don't really agree with their government either. They don't like all the things that their government's doing either.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. And when you turn on the news, you're only getting the negative stuff.

• 5:34Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 5:34Speaker 02

  Because that's how they get interest from people and that's how they make money. That's, the headlines are always negative.

• 5:40Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 5:40Speaker 02

  I would say the one place that I went where I told them I was American, that they were a little bit standoffish, was North Korea.

• 5:45Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 5:46Speaker 02

  I can speak a bit of Korean, so I was able to kind of like talk to them. But it wasn't that they were like scared of Americans, but they just, all they know about America is, you know, propaganda stuff that, and so they were just kind of like really shocked when I said I was American. But then I talked to them and one guy invited me to play tennis. So it's just like, they're just people.

• 6:04Mark Manson?

  How did that come about, the North Korea's thing?

• 6:06Speaker 02

  I went on a guided tour in 2017, flew into Beijing and then did a mandatory briefing and then spent three days in Pyongyang. And I'm one of the last Americans until now to step foot in the country, because when I came back, if you can remember Otto Warmbier. I was in North Korea when he was in labor camps and I knew that was going on.

• 6:23Mark Manson?

  Wow.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  And then as soon as I left North Korea, I was living in Bangkok, so I went back to Bangkok. And Otto went home to Ohio and passed away. And then that was the moment that President Trump banned Americans. I don't know if he did, but Americans became banned to visit North Korea until now. So I think I'm one of the last dozen or so Americans to step foot in North Korea.

• 6:40Mark Manson?

  Were you aware of that before you went in?

• 6:42Speaker 02

  I knew I couldn't like break the rules.

• 6:44Mark Manson?

  Didn't, well, yeah. Didn't that worry you?

• 6:48Speaker 02

  Like, where did you? It turned a mandatory briefing in Beijing and it's basically like the do's and don'ts, which is mostly don'ts.

• 6:53Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Um, and I just followed the rules and, and I went.

• 6:57Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 6:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was really interesting.

• 6:59Mark Manson?

  Yeah. What, what stood out about it?

• 7:02Speaker 02

  It's dark and depressing and really isolated and a lot of the buildings, like you would imagine, are empty. There's like really tall hotels. There's like a hundred story pyramid hotel in Pyongyang. If you've seen a picture of the skyline, you've seen it.

• 7:14Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  And it's empty. It's weird. And, um, the coolest part was, uh, I did a 10K in the marathon, Pyongyang marathon.

• 7:22Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  So it was like half foreigners and half North Koreans. I, I can't run a full marathon, but I just did that as an opportunity to like mingle with the people on the side, shaking hands, like talking a bit. So that was kind of cool.

• 7:34Mark Manson?

  Did the people seem anxious or nervous to talk to you?

• 7:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 7:39Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 7:42Speaker 02

  Cause I said like, which means I'm American. And that's the first time I opened up to them and then they were just like really shocked to hear that. But then I just told them I lived in South Korea. They actually don't hate South Korea. Korea, before 1953, Korea was one country.

• 7:55Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  And a lot of people don't know this, but in the first few years after the Korean War, North Korea was thriving and South Korea wasn't. And then it switched in the seventies. So that's pretty recent. Like my grandfather was in the Korean War. They still have the same last names, like Kim Park Chan, like it's very similar.

• 8:09Mark Manson?

  Yeah, and it's, well, you hear stories too of, of, there's like siblings and

• 8:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:14Mark Manson?

  cousins who were separated. 60 years ago.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 8:17Mark Manson?

  And, you know, haven't reunited or reunited the DMZ or.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  Right. But culturally, though, like, they're very similar.

• 8:23Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  The way they speak and, I mean, the language has evolved a bit, but like kimchi and like the way they bow and the way they have respect for the elders and like, that stuff's all the same. I could talk about Korea a lot, but I'm sure we got a lot, I'm sure we got a lot of stuff to go to.

• 8:37Speaker 03

  I got a question for you around, you mentioned that, you know, you follow the rules. You learn the rules and you went and you followed the rules. And I think a lot of people are, you know, hesitant to go places because of safety issues and stuff like that. Obviously, you've put yourself in some very dangerous situations, but it seems like you've really done your homework before. And I think that's kind of one of the anecdotes to not be, or putting yourself in dangerous situations is having that knowledge before and just following the rules. What, what kind of preparation do you do when you go into some of these places?

• 9:06Speaker 02

  I might, my, my answer might not be what you're expecting. I actually am pretty spontaneous and I kind of go with the flow, but that being said, I know, I get in touch with the right local person, usually it's one person, who's either a licensed tour guide or someone who's very familiar with traveling around the country and understands my mission, which is to document and tell stories. And I kind of put my trust into them and they, you know, show me a good time. And this has worked in mainland Yemen, eight day road trip with one Yemeni guy, Afghanistan, I spent a month in Afghanistan in two different trips, Iran, Somalia, Pakistan, Congo. I, I don't go in completely alone. I go in, I, I travel solo to these places, like on the plane, I fly solo. And then at the airport, I'll meet up with a local person and then I, you

• 9:49Speaker 02

  know, I trust, I've done my research, due diligence with them through Zoom calls and asking questions and making sure they know the plan. And from then, I just, I'm just with them and then trust that I'll be safe. And to this day, I've never been mugged, kidnapped, robbed in every country. So I think that says something.

• 10:05Mark Manson?

  How much of like, does understanding the culture or the history or the politics play a role in just kind of understanding those do's and don'ts?

• 10:14Speaker 02

  That matters a lot. In some countries, like in Syria, where, when you go there, I went there in 2019 and all the buildings were destroyed around me and certain regions are off limits and some questions you can't ask to people. So I do have to know those things. But I think the more I travel, the more I've realized, like, I pick up on social cues and I just good at like.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  I'm good in these situations. It's like, what's it called when people know a lot of languages? What's it called?

• 10:39Mark Manson?

  Polyglots.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  Polyglots, they say, once you get past five, six languages, they become much easier. Because there's like certain cues in different languages that just make like.

• 10:47Mark Manson?

  Just pattern recognition.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  It's kind of similar to that. It's like, the more you visit war torn countries or conflict zones, you kind of understand the layout of the land and how to approach it. I wish I had a specific answer, but it's more of just like, experience kind of helps with that.

• 11:00Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 11:01Speaker 03

  Well, back to the trust thing, though. I've heard you do vet a lot of people on social media.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  Yes, definitely.

• 11:06Speaker 03

  You talk to them beforehand and stuff like that. You have to lead with trust in those situations, I'm guessing. And you just freely give trust. What have you kind of learned about human relationships through that? I guess it's crazy. You've already said 99% of people are warm and open to that.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:18Speaker 03

  But when you lead with trust like that, I think there's even another level to it.

• 11:22Speaker 02

  There's trust until the trust is broken. And just very few times, maybe you can count on one hand, how many local friends or fixers, that I like to call them, they help me out, that they've steered me wrong, not dangerously, but it just wasn't, there wasn't a connection there. And at those points, I just would make an excuse or leave or find a way to get out of it. But a lot of these people are my followers too, that have joined the journey since 2017 since I started making videos. So they know exactly what I'm trying to do, which is document like cultures, get in, get inside homes. And like, like we talked about Bourdain, like that, he's my inspiration for doing all this stuff. So just the way he can break bread with people and like, sit down and have a conversation. And it's, it's all about the people. It's not about the nature or, nature is cool.

• 12:06Speaker 02

  But I never, I don't even consider nature when I travel. Everyone's like, isn't Switzerland the most beautiful? I'm like, personally, I'm like, I just think it's boring. I mean, there's not, I don't want to pick on.

• 12:16Mark Manson?

  Apologies to the Swiss listeners right there.

• 12:18Speaker 02

  I don't want to pick on Switzerland. I was just, I was in Berlin yesterday and I was talking to Germans about this. But maybe I shouldn't pick on Switzerland. But like, it's great to have nice nature.

• 12:27Mark Manson?

  I mean, Switzerland's neutral, right? They'll be fine.

• 12:29Speaker 02

  They're neutral, but like, they're just really, they're not so open to be filmed. And it's just more of like a private kind of culture, which you'll find a lot in Western Europe. But yeah, I, I travel for, for people, people's stories. I want to know what, how people are living. What is, what's their religion? What are they eating? Why do they do certain things? Customs?

• 12:47Mark Manson?

  You mentioned earlier that you went to Syria. Either immediately, like during or immediately after the war?

• 12:53Speaker 02

  During.

• 12:53Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:54Mark Manson?

  What brought that about?

• 12:55Speaker 02

  Well, I was visiting every country, so that's a country.

• 12:58Speaker 03

  It was on the list? It was the next one on the list.

• 13:00Mark Manson?

  You couldn't wait for the war to end?

• 13:02Speaker 02

  No, so getting, so getting this, this is a good story that I haven't told much. Getting the Syrian visa, it's in the book, was impossible for Americans and still kind of is. But now there's, there's a loophole that you can get it. So the only way I was able to get into Syria in 2019 was through a French, a Christian French NGO. The founder of that was a follower and he was like, hey, he DM me on Instagram and was like, hey, I can help you get the, it's a volunteer visa, so it's not a tourist visa.

• 13:29Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 13:29Speaker 02

  If you come to volunteer with our organization, we can get you into Syria. I said, sure. And it took like six months of back and forth paperwork, interviews. And finally I got the visa and I got it in Beirut, which is just a two hour drive to the border. And then I was able to cross overland. I still thought when I got to the border, they were going to deny me, but I got in. And so I went, the whole time, the whole 10 days I was in Syria, I was with this Christian NGO. And I was volunteering a bit and then I would go off and shoot my YouTube videos and then I would go back. I was sleeping in bunk beds with all these French volunteers for this spreading Christianity. I'm Jewish, so I'm in Syria. I'm in Syria with a Christian NGO, like trying to document Muslim culture or Arab culture. And I ended up traveling around the country with them and it was really, it was really great.

• 14:14Speaker 02

  But that was the only way I could get in. And I was just really curious to know what life is like in Syria because I, all of the surrounding countries I love.

• 14:21Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 14:22Speaker 02

  Lebanon, Iran, Iraq. So I just had a really good time in Syria.

• 14:26Mark Manson?

  What, what did you learn during that period?

• 14:29Speaker 02

  That people are resilient.

• 14:30Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 14:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. Even though like I was interviewing people and the background is just rubble, like just all the buildings are collapsed and they were just like, yeah, we're hoping for a better tomorrow. Like I was inside of their shops that are just completely bombed, like a room like this, but everything's bombed. And you know, some tears are shedding and they're just like, we can't wait for the, for the country to rebuild. And that's, that's crazy. Like you can say people are resilient around the world, but I haven't seen resilience like that.

• 14:54Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 14:54Speaker 02

  You know, where you're physically like in a place that you have to be stepping over giant like rocks just to get into the place.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  But Syrian people are really friendly, like before the war, it was thriving. It was a. Tourist destination, like there's beautiful Mediterranean beach in Syria. People don't even know that there's beaches in Syria. Beautiful beaches, like crystal clear water and food is great. I mean, it's it's Mesopotamia, it's the cradle of civilization, you know? So everyone knows that word Mesopotamia because we studied it in third grade.

• 15:24Mark Manson?

  The yeah, the breadbasket of the world.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  It's like I told my parents I was going to Iraq and they were like, be careful. And I said, I'm going to Mesopotamia and they're like, oh, that's cool.

• 15:32Speaker 03

  It's a sad place.

• 15:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 15:35Speaker 03

  Well, we kind of touched on this already, but there is this media perception of these certain places, Syria and other places like that. What's some or what are some of the biggest gaps you've seen between the media portrayal and like your boots on the ground? Assessment of it because like, like for me, I've I have a lot of deeply held beliefs about people and places I've never met, never been to. Recently, that's kind of been eating at me a little bit. And I was wondering if you could give some perspective on, okay, this is like, is there some horrible place? We all think is a horrible place that isn't Syria might be one of them. What have you learned about that sort of thing? The media disconnect from reality?

• 16:11Speaker 02

  Afghanistan is a good example, but in general, to answer your question, the media usually has a an agenda where they're talking about negative things. Very rarely you'll turn on CNN or whatever media and they're like sharing a positive story about a slice of culture in in the Middle East. Afghanistan, I've been twice, the most recent time was right before Taliban takeover. But I've had many friends go to Afghanistan since Taliban takeover and they told me it's very safe. The Taliban are trying to push tourism for what it's worth. I'm not saying I support Taliban, but that's an example. I met a lot of Taliban and that's an example of a country that is pretty safe, I would say as a tourist, like they look out for you. They're really hospitable people in Afghanistan.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  They will like break their knees for you to sleep in their house and offer you tea and stuff. And it's a beautiful, beautiful country. So that's one place I think that I don't think anyone's ever heard a positive story about.

• 17:06Speaker 03

  I was just gonna say, there's still a reaction in me that I'm like, no, that's bullshit. But I mean, I believe you, but there's still like this visceral reaction.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  I've made 14 videos in that country and I hope to go back, but all almost all of them have been positive just about different places and cultures and it's just like. I met the last Jew in Afghanistan. He left now, but there was one Jewish person left and he runs the synagogue in Kabul. And that was like one of my favorite stories I've ever told.

• 17:30Speaker 03

  He ran a synagogue in Kabul?

• 17:32Speaker 02

  There's a synagogue in Kabul.

• 17:32Speaker 03

  With one Jew in the whole country?

• 17:34Speaker 02

  Yes, and he keeps Orthodox, yeah.

• 17:35Speaker 03

  So, so he was the only one who would go to the synagogue?

• 17:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the rabbi that he communicates with is in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, the next country over.

• 17:42Speaker 03

  Wow, okay.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  And, um, yeah, he, he keeps all kosher and all the holidays and stuff. But he, he now left the country, so there's now zero Jews left in Afghanistan. But that was one of, that was one of my favorite stories I told. But there's so many little corners of that country that's, there's 35 million people there. Like, that's a lot of people. It's almost, what, California is 50 million?

• 18:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  So 80% of the population of California, that's Afghanistan.

• 18:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  That's crazy when you think about it like that.

• 18:07Speaker 03

  That is wild, yeah.

• 18:09Mark Manson?

  I like, you brought up a point that, that I've definitely found to be true as well, which is the worse the reputation of a place, the more the locals almost overcompensate for that. Like, they, they, they, like, we just got back from El Salvador, we were talking about before we, we went live,

• 18:26Mark Manson?

  doing a YouTube video on it, and it was the same down there. It was like, everybody was like, "Oh my God, Americans are here." Like, roll out the red carpet. This is our chance to make a good impression, you know, it's, uh...

• 18:37Speaker 02

  It used to be really dangerous.

• 18:38Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  Up until a few years ago.

• 18:40Mark Manson?

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, highest murder rate in the world.

• 18:42Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 18:42Mark Manson?

  Six or seven years ago, and, um, it's become very safe now, and the video will be about kind of that transition. But to your point as well, you know, about the resilience, there were a number of people that we talked to down there. You know, I would, kind of, I was asking them questions about the changes, and I, I would say like, "Oh, you must be really happy now." And I remember there was this one old woman, and she said, "We've always been happy." She's like, "Even when the gangs were killing everybody, we were still happy. It's just now we're safe." And I was like... Touche.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  The story, I can't wait to watch your video, by the way. When's it coming out?

• 19:18Mark Manson?

  Uh, probably July.

• 19:20Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 19:20Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 19:20Speaker 02

  The video that's coming up tomorrow on my YouTube channel is from the biggest favela in Sao Paulo.

• 19:24Mark Manson?

  Oh, nice.

• 19:24Speaker 02

  I went there two months ago and similar like.

• 19:27Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 19:28Speaker 02

  People were like kissing my feet that I came as an American and I was kind of, I've been around Brazil, but not Sao Paulo and not the favelas. And I just went with a local friend and we just walked through the streets and that was really interesting, but the people were smiling, happy. Like the police are too scared to go to this place because they will get shot at.

• 19:43Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  And so gangs and drug lords run this place.

• 19:47Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 19:47Speaker 02

  It's called Parisopolis and, uh, but I found people to be really funny and they kept telling me they're like, they're like, everyone around you right now is like involved in crime and stuff. Like kidnappings outside of the, outside of the favela, inside the favela. What's going on guys? How you doing? Really friendly, like looking after, they don't want to commit crime in their own place.

• 20:05Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 20:05Speaker 02

  Cause everyone knows each other. I thought that was really interesting. It's like a bubble of safety in this place.

• 20:10Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 20:10Speaker 02

  These guys are all criminals outside the favela. But I was talking to them like physically like this, asking them questions about it and they're open about it. It was crazy.

• 20:17Mark Manson?

  Yeah, the favelas in Brazil, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask my, my wife about that. She's from Sao Paulo.

• 20:22Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 20:23Mark Manson?

  And I lived down there for a couple of years.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Oh, you did? Nice. Do you know Parisopolis?

• 20:26Mark Manson?

  I've heard of it. I've never been.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:28Mark Manson?

  Uh, but I've been to, I've been to a couple of the favelas in Rio.

• 20:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:30Mark Manson?

  And, um, yeah, it's a wild dynamic.

• 20:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:34Mark Manson?

  Like it's kind of a, there's almost, especially during carnival, like there's all these, these parties up in the favelas and it's almost like, uh, it's kind of like when an armistice is called. You know, you hear stories like World War One where the French and German soldiers played, played soccer on Christmas. Like it feels like carnival is that in the football. It's like, okay, we're all, no crime for a week. We're all just gonna hang out and have parties together and then we'll, we'll get back to robbing you next week.

• 20:57Speaker 02

  That's kind of what it's like though.

• 20:58Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 20:59Speaker 02

  They're really kind-hearted people in Brazil in general.

• 21:01Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 21:01Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 21:02Mark Manson?

  Super warm.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I, I agree with what you just said.

• 21:06Mark Manson?

  So the world is a funny place, man. It's like, it's.

• 21:09Speaker 02

  Where else have you lived, by the way?

• 21:10Mark Manson?

  Um, so I was nomadic for seven years.

• 21:13Speaker 02

  Cool.

• 21:13Mark Manson?

  So I spent about a year and a half in Southeast Asia, mostly in Thailand, but also Vietnam and lived in Brazil for two years, spent four years in South America, primarily Brazil, which is where my wife's from. But also Colombia and Argentina and then a little bit in Europe, here and there.

• 21:28Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 21:28Mark Manson?

  Russia, UK, Germany for a little while.

• 21:32Speaker 02

  Cool.

• 21:32Mark Manson?

  It was amazing. I mean, it's like one of the best things I ever did.

• 21:35Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 21:36Mark Manson?

  Is, is.

• 21:38Mark Manson?

  Live abroad and just travel and explore.

• 21:40Speaker 02

  I was nomadic for about seven, eight years in Asia.

• 21:42Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:43Mark Manson?

  Yeah, it's.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's great.

• 21:45Mark Manson?

  Any young person, it is one of the, I mean, anybody, but like, especially if you're young, because it's easier when you're young. You know, it's, it's.

• 21:53Speaker 02

  It's the best thing you can do. It is the best thing you can do.

• 21:55Mark Manson?

  It is. It's the, it's the best education.

• 21:58Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 21:59Mark Manson?

  Like, it's, it's, to this day, it's still paying dividends. I actually, it's interesting. I've had this conversation with my publishers. My books have been, I think, number one in like thirteen or fourteen different countries. And I've talked to agents and publishers and they're like, this is kind of, this is crazy, like the international appeal. They're like, usually it's just the English market and maybe one or two other languages, or maybe it's, you know, here, like, there'll be like one random market, like Japan, it takes off. Um, but I really attribute that to the amount of time I spend abroad, because this, these questions of like, what is universal that most people don't realize is universal? And then like, what is actually particular to American culture that most Americans don't realize is particular, like.

• 22:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 22:40Mark Manson?

  That, I think, in a nutshell, that has informed a lot of my career success.

• 22:47Speaker 02

  It makes sense, though. Like, I grew up sheltered in America, like probably all of us did. I went to University of Wisconsin. I was in a fraternity. I was living in a frat house and I loved that life, but I didn't know of, I thought that was just normal. It was normal. It was normal.

• 23:01Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  But then.

• 23:02Mark Manson?

  In Wisconsin, yeah.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's great. But then I, I studied abroad in Prague and then I taught English in Korea for two years and then it just totally shaped my world, like what we're talking about. And then when I come back home, you know, things are pretty much the same here, but what's in your head is different.

• 23:17Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  And I just think that people should travel more. It just makes you more wise, well-rounded, respectful, and understanding of how people live, which is really important.

• 23:28Mark Manson?

  And I, I would say it is. Clarified, I feel like I have a much clearer and better relationship with the United States.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  Same.

• 23:39Mark Manson?

  For living abroad. Cause you come back and you now you actually like now I feel like I actually know like what's good in the US and what's not good in the US.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:47Mark Manson?

  Whereas, you know, I think it's easy to get caught up in all the political narratives and news media narratives and stuff. And a lot of that stuff is just like way off base.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  I agree completely.

• 23:57Mark Manson?

  Completely.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  And the US is great, by the way.

• 23:59Mark Manson?

  It is.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  It's huge.

• 24:00Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 24:00Speaker 02

  It's massive. It's almost bigger than Europe. I think if you include Alaska in size, it's bigger than Europe. 50 states, 64 national parks, which are all beautiful. There's a lot going on here. I know we're like a world power and we have a lot of influence on the world, but if you forget about that and just think about as a destination to travel, you can get in a car and just freely drive anywhere and it's pretty great.

• 24:21Speaker 03

  That's what I always say too. People are like, why don't Americans travel? I'm like, first of all.

• 24:25Speaker 02

  That's the main reason why. Cause we can travel anywhere within America.

• 24:28Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 24:29Speaker 02

  But like Arizona, Utah, Colorado, California, if you've driven those states, it's some of the best in the world. It's probably the best road trip in the world.

• 24:36Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 24:36Speaker 02

  That circle.

• 24:37Mark Manson?

  I live in Colorado.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  You do?

• 24:38Mark Manson?

  I agree with that. Yeah.

• 24:39Speaker 02

  It's so great.

• 24:40Mark Manson?

  Love Colorado.

• 24:40Speaker 02

  And we do take that for granted because we just, you know.

• 24:43Mark Manson?

  It wasn't until I moved to the US with my wife and she was like, I want to do road trips. And I was like, ugh, really?

• 24:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:51Mark Manson?

  You know, as someone who grew up in America, I was like, I was like, really? A road trip? And then we ended up doing, we did a road trip through the Western US.

• 24:58Speaker 02

  It was fantastic.

• 24:58Mark Manson?

  Unbelievable. Unbelievable.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  It's so good.

• 25:01Mark Manson?

  It's so, it's gorgeous. It's absolutely gorgeous.

• 25:03Speaker 02

  And I always tell people to just road trip the West.

• 25:06Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:07Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Speaking of which, what would you say, what trip was the most transformative for you?

• 25:13Speaker 02

  India. So after I left Korea, I lived in Korea for two years teaching English. I was 24, single. And I had a goal to visit every country in the world. I was at about 50 at that time. And I said, India, I haven't been to India yet. Three months solo backpacking, flew to India and I did.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  Started in Goa. Have you been India?

• 25:34Mark Manson?

  Yep.

• 25:35Speaker 02

  Okay, started in Goa in the south, kind of south, and then I basically took buses and trains all the way up through Rajasthan. So I did like all the western and northwest, not all. India's, I've been seven times and I still, there's so much, so many places to go. Yeah, a lot of the central and western India and northwestern India. And I just learned a lot about myself. You know, I was on a shoestring budget. I wasn't making much money. I think I was spending a thousand a month, including accommodations and food, which is pretty decent, I think, for India. Like you can get a lot of things for a little bit of money. And um, yeah, I just think my true colors came out and I was by myself. So, and I wasn't making YouTube videos at this time. I was blogging. I used to have a travel website. It was called thehungrypartier.com.

• 26:20Speaker 02

  And I basically bought food and nightlife around the world. So I was like partying in India. I went to a Switchfoot concert. Do you know that band?

• 26:26Mark Manson?

  Switchfoot.

• 26:26Speaker 02

  Switchfoot in Mumbai, at the Hard Rock Mumbai. I don't think I've ever told that to anyone until right now. This just never came up. Went to a Switchfoot concert, met a lot of cool people. And unfortunately, I got in a bus crash in India and two people died on the bus. It was towards the end of my trip. And so to this day, I don't take like bus, like overnight buses to get places. That's a dark story. But yeah, I learned a lot in India and I got food poisoning three times, like severe food poisoning. I lost like 15 pounds on the trip. But I've been back to India six more times since then and I'm gonna go back probably again at the end of this year. There's so many stories in India.

• 27:00Mark Manson?

  I always answer that question with India as well. And it's, for me, it's the extremity.

• 27:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 27:05Mark Manson?

  Like, I actually wrote an article about it many, many years ago. And I think what it is, is like you can have one of the most beautiful experiences in your life on one street corner.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 27:15Mark Manson?

  Walk two blocks down the street and have one of the most horrifying and disgusting experiences of your life. And it's on the same street and it's like the same afternoon.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 27:26Mark Manson?

  The same place.

• 27:27Speaker 02

  I have a specific example of that in Agra, which is the most beautiful building in the world, Taj Mahal. I saw that morning, I saw, I was driving there and I saw a dead person in the street.

• 27:35Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  And there wasn't even like police there to, ambulance there, it was just a dead person. There was people, there was people surrounding them. I don't know how the person died, but I saw with my eyes a dead person on the street. And then an hour later, I was at Taj Mahal.

• 27:47Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  You're absolutely right.

• 27:49Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  It's everything, everything all at once.

• 27:52Mark Manson?

  Yeah, everything everywhere all.

• 27:53Speaker 02

  Everything everywhere all at once. And it's like, you get a lot of attention too, and they speak English. A lot of Indians speak English, the majority of them, I think. And so they'll come up to you on the street and ask you questions. Not much concept of space, so they'll be right here talking to you. And they're friendly people, very friendly, but there's a lot going on. And as you said, like, you'll see it all. In one day, you'll see everything.

• 28:16Mark Manson?

  Yeah. And incredibly hospitable, but then there's also a lot of, for lack of a better word, like scams. I spent about six weeks there and it was probably at least once a week, either to me or somebody like at my hostel or somebody I was traveling with, like, you know, we would just get sold something.

• 28:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:34Mark Manson?

  That didn't exist.

• 28:38Mark Manson?

  You know, it'd take you a few hours to figure it out. And then you're like, oh, oh, god damn it again.

• 28:43Speaker 02

  They're very smart.

• 28:44Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah, they're crafty.

• 28:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. I always say like, India is my favorite and least favorite country in the world.

• 28:49Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 28:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. Love hate relationship.

• 28:50Mark Manson?

  It's, it's tough. I've like, wanted to take my wife for a long time, but I always tell her, I'm like, this is not gonna be an enjoyable trip. Like, this is, this is a trip to learn about yourself and learn about the world. There could be days where you're like, what am I doing here?

• 29:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I took my wife there and we had a good time overall, but it's tricky.

• 29:07Mark Manson?

  It's, it's intense. It's really intense.

• 29:09Speaker 02

  I do recommend everyone to go to India.

• 29:11Mark Manson?

  It's incredible.

• 29:11Speaker 02

  You learn so much about yourself, about the world. It's the most populous country in the world.

• 29:16Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  It just passed China like two months ago. That's crazy. It's a third the size of the US with five times the amount of people.

• 29:22Mark Manson?

  Which if you've been to downtown Delhi, that's not surprising.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  No, it's not.

• 29:26Mark Manson?

  There's like people stacked on top of people, on top of people. But it is an incredible place. Shout out to all the Indian listeners.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:33Mark Manson?

  We have a lot of them. And yeah, one day I'll go back too.

• 29:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. There's a lot of stories to tell there, man.

• 29:37Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 29:37Speaker 02

  As you know.

• 29:38Mark Manson?

  It's a, it's a wild place. Do you ever worry that you're getting desensitized to this?

• 29:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:44Mark Manson?

  Like after enough war zones, like maybe, maybe you're like the thing that's protecting you just kind of like.

• 29:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, I think there's something like that. Yeah.

• 29:51Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  I think I just don't, I don't phase at things, situations. Um, I don't know what like gene that is, if it's a genetic thing or not, but.

• 30:00Mark Manson?

  So that's always been there? Or do you think you you've gotten less, like, were you fearful the first time you went to a war zone?

• 30:06Speaker 02

  No, so I guess it has always been there. Like when I was a kid, I never went to war zones. I don't know what that note, having no fear thing is. I'm sure that's something you've tried to unpack throughout your career as.

• 30:14Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 30:15Speaker 02

  Storyteller as well. Is that a gene?

• 30:17Mark Manson?

  I, I personally think so.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:19Mark Manson?

  I think some people, you hear it a lot from like military guys.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:22Mark Manson?

  Or like the, that free solo climber.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:25Mark Manson?

  Alex Honnold.

• 30:25Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 30:26Mark Manson?

  There's a circuit that's just like not there.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't know what it is. A lot of people ask me that. They're like, aren't you too scared to go here? And like Mogadishu is the most dangerous city in the world. That place is crazy and I'm happy to talk about it, but I went in there just, just hanging out. Like, I mean, it's crazy out there.

• 30:42Mark Manson?

  What happened there? How did that happen?

• 30:44Speaker 02

  I went to Somali land, which is an unrecognized country. It's the northern part of Somalia. I wanted to go to real Somalia. So I went to Mogadishu and um, just to leave the airport, like the hotel picked me up, but they had a convoy of like, a pickup truck in front, a pickup truck behind, all bulletproof, bulletproof blackout windows. And there were four guys in bulletproof vests and big automatic weapons on each, on each, like the bed of the truck, they were on each corner. So there were eight guys and then us in a Jeep, blacked out windows. And then every time we'd have to get out of the car for the three days I was there, anytime I would get out, all the eight guys would scope around, look over every fence, like, and then they would be like, okay, he can come. And I had like 10 minutes to go anywhere and then I'd have to go back in the car. That's how dangerous it is.

• 31:27Mark Manson?

  Wow.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  There's kidnappings, attacks. I stayed in the Hyatt and two months after I left, the whole hotel was bombed and like 40 people died in that, in that hotel, same hotel.

• 31:35Mark Manson?

  Christ, dude.

• 31:37Speaker 02

  I have a selfie in this like ice cream shop in the lobby of the Hyatt and like I saw a picture of that ice cream shop and it's, it's gone. So that it's just a crazy place, Mogadishu, unfortunately.

• 31:47Mark Manson?

  Do you? Worry that like, I mean, because a cer- a cer- a certain amount of that is just luck, right?

• 31:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:54Mark Manson?

  Like, there's, there's a small chance that something really goes sideways.

• 31:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:59Mark Manson?

  Each time you go to one of these places.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  There is, there is. Um, yeah, I, I don't really worry.

• 32:04Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Is there an adrenaline rush to it?

• 32:06Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah, absolutely.

• 32:07Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 32:08Speaker 02

  Absolutely. The moment I get off the plane until the moment I'm gone, there's adrenaline. I think that that's what I'm hooked on.

• 32:13Mark Manson?

  Interesting.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  But I get adrenaline knowing that this is a place almost nobody goes to, no Westerners go to. And the fact that I can document it and post a video that will probably get millions of views is really special that I can be a messenger for that part of the world.

• 32:28Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 32:29Speaker 02

  I'm sure you feel that too.

• 32:31Mark Manson?

  Yeah, but I, dude, I'm not going to Mogadishu.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  Let me know if you want to go. I can, I can connect you.

• 32:37Mark Manson?

  You can hook me up, you can hook me up.

• 32:40Speaker 02

  What's the most dangerous place that you've been or that you've felt?

• 32:43Mark Manson?

  Oh, that's a good question. I got really drunk and fucked up one night and went to the wrong part of Cartagena. And it was actually, I actually lucked out because.

• 32:51Speaker 02

  Did you go to that Cuban bar in Cartagena where they serve mojitos? It's like a dance salsa bar. Super cool.

• 32:57Mark Manson?

  I.

• 32:57Speaker 02

  You don't remember? Okay.

• 32:58Mark Manson?

  I, all I know is I went to the wrong spot and it was funny because I lucked out because there was a Colombian guy there

• 33:06Mark Manson?

  who had studied in the US.

• 33:07Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 33:08Mark Manson?

  And so when my friend and I got out of the taxi, this guy immediately walked up to us and he was like, he was like, what are you doing here? Are you guys American? What are you doing here? And I was, I was like, yeah. And he's like, you can't be here.

• 33:20Speaker 02

  Oh, good.

• 33:20Mark Manson?

  You have to go. And I, I was like, no, man, like, it's cool. I speak Spanish. I was drunk as fuck. And, uh, I was like, it's cool. I speak Spanish. And he's like, no, no, no, you.

• 33:29Speaker 02

  You have to go.

• 33:30Mark Manson?

  Don't understand, like this part of town, you cannot be here at night.

• 33:33Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 33:33Mark Manson?

  And, uh.

• 33:34Speaker 02

  It was like two in the morning or something?

• 33:36Mark Manson?

  Yeah, it was two in the morning, something like that. He put us back in the taxi, sent us back to the, the old town, which is the tourist part.

• 33:42Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 33:43Mark Manson?

  And the taxi started driving outside of town.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  Oh, that's, that's my biggest fear.

• 33:47Mark Manson?

  Started driving the opposite way, which when you live in Latin America, you hear stories like this of like, you get dumped in some random place. They take all your shit.

• 33:54Speaker 02

  That's exactly my biggest fear.

• 33:55Mark Manson?

  And they potentially kill you or they just leave you out in the middle of like the Colombian jungle. And, uh, so anyway. I started realizing what was happening. I told my friend who didn't speak Spanish, I said, this is what's happening, like, get ready. I took a credit card out of my wallet and put it in the bottom of my sock, in the bottom of my shoe. Yep. I told my friend, I said, whoever we get dumped in front of, just give them everything, don't fight, don't argue, don't run away, like, just hand everything over. Completely mentally prepared for it, and then we came across a police checkpoint. And the police stopped the car. Really? Random?

• 34:34Mark Manson?

  Complete random, police checkpoint, cop stopped the car, asked the taxi where he was going, he like said some bullshit place, the cop was like, who's in the backseat? Taxi's like, oh, just some friends. Wow. And he's like, and then the cop was like, walked over, and he was like. And you told him what's up? Yeah, and I was like, I don't know where I'm going, I'm American, and the cop was like, told the taxi driver, like, turn around right now, go back to, go back to town. That's crazy.

• 35:04Mark Manson?

  Yeah, dude, but I don't want to do that again.

• 35:08Mark Manson?

  You don't get adrenaline thinking about that story? Dude, I'm like, I'm getting fucked, my hands are getting sweaty just telling that story. That's a great story. Yeah, yeah. I mean, one thing that I kind of mentally did, and I'd actually be curious to hear if you did the same thing, is when I decided I was gonna live in Latin America, long term, and especially once I married a Brazilian, like, you know, I'm probably gonna spend at least a few weeks in Brazil for the rest of my life, every year for the rest of my life. I really just came to peace with it of like, it's inevitable. Yep. I'm gonna get robbed or mugged or pickpocketed at some point, probably multiple times, every single Brazilian friend I have has been robbed. Yep. Some in more horrifying circumstances than others.

• 35:48Mark Manson?

  So I really just made peace with it of like, just setting expectation of like, this is going to happen. It's kind of like a tax of making this, like, choosing to have this life. Right. Like, you know, part of the tax is just I'm gonna be robbed like once every 10 years or so. And that's fine.

• 36:07Speaker 02

  It's good to set that in your mind. So when it does happen, it's not so shocking.

• 36:11Mark Manson?

  You're not freaking out about it. Yeah.

• 36:13Speaker 02

  Like you can mentally prepare. I think that's important.

• 36:15Mark Manson?

  For sure.

• 36:16Speaker 02

  I think that's something that I do is like if I get thrown behind bars or if something happens like I know that that's a possibility, especially in Western China. I know that could happen.

• 36:24Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 36:25Speaker 02

  And I'd like to think I'd get out of prison, but maybe there I might not. I was almost the next Brittany Griner. Remember when she was held in Russia? So I was detained on the border of Russia and North Korea like weeks before Russia attacked Ukraine, like two weeks before. And there was already talk about it happening. And they loved to have, that was an American on the border and they, they held me for three hours. They stripped me of my phone and my friends had to be outside and they asked me every question I've ever been asked. And if they wanted to, they could have kept me and then the war broke out right then. So then I would have been the political pawn that Brittany Griner was.

• 36:58Mark Manson?

  Wow.

• 36:58Speaker 02

  It was like this close.

• 37:00Mark Manson?

  I've got a series. I want to play a, a quick game of overrated underrated.

• 37:04Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 37:05Mark Manson?

  And this is, let me set the context for this. So I'm going to ask you, I'm going to give you a list of things. This is, tell me if they're overrated or underrated in terms of the quality of life for like an average citizen in the country. So the first one is government, overrated or underrated?

• 37:26Speaker 02

  Overrated.

• 37:26Mark Manson?

  Overrated. Why?

• 37:29Speaker 02

  Um, I guess I might change my answer.

• 37:33Mark Manson?

  I feel like it's, it's probably properly rated at the extremes. And then overrated for everybody else. Like, like if you're in North Korea, obviously the government is like the most influential thing or.

• 37:46Speaker 02

  You need government to have rules and laws. Otherwise, everything would be anarchy. Like there would be nothing, there would be nothing. So. It's a tricky one.

• 37:54Mark Manson?

  Like, the average person in Iran, or the average person in.

• 37:59Speaker 02

  They hate their governments, but yeah.

• 38:00Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah. Like Afghanistan, or Korea, or Australia. Like, how much influence does the government actually have on their day to day life?

• 38:09Speaker 02

  Like, for women, they have to wear hijabs, so, but I think that's changing now with the whole masala. I mean, you think, but there are like certain rules that they have to do, but like, they all badmouth the government and they wish it wasn't the case. But that being said, they still have to follow a certain standard.

• 38:23Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 38:23Speaker 02

  In a place like Iran.

• 38:25Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 38:25Speaker 02

  So I think the government is just there and they, it's something they don't want to think about, but it's just rules that they have to follow. But I think that they'd, they'd much rather, like Iranians are not religious. I think like, I was there on Ramadan, I think 80%, 8-0, do not fast.

• 38:40Mark Manson?

  Wow.

• 38:41Speaker 02

  Isn't that crazy?

• 38:41Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 38:42Speaker 02

  Even though all the restaurants are closed, you know, the Islamic Republic of Iran, which is the official name of the government, they will make it feel like it's super religious and close all the restaurants until nighttime, but the people, they're just eating, you know, undercover. So that's one example of like, yeah, the government's there and present, but like, I'm trying to think like.

• 39:00Mark Manson?

  But that would be, kind of be an argument of that it's overrated, right?

• 39:03Speaker 02

  It would be an argument, that's why, but I said overrated, but then I thought about other countries and I was like underrated. So it's like this weird, it just depends on what country you're in.

• 39:12Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 39:12Speaker 02

  It's, it's really tough, like in Africa, like there's a lot of bribery and stuff and that's, that's a whole different conversation. But I paid a lot of bribes just to cross land borders for no reason.

• 39:21Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 39:22Speaker 02

  It's just like, in order for you to get from Sierra Leone to Liberia, in order to cross that border, you need to pay $300. And so I paid $300. And that, and that's to a policeman with a gun, that's to the policeman.

• 39:33Mark Manson?

  And it's probably has nothing to do with the government.

• 39:35Speaker 02

  It has nothing to do, no.

• 39:36Mark Manson?

  It's just, it's just he happens to be stationed at the border.

• 39:39Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, correct. So maybe that's not related to the conversation because it's not the government.

• 39:44Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 39:45Speaker 02

  So the government maybe doesn't have as much authority in those places.

• 39:49Mark Manson?

  It is a hard question.

• 39:50Speaker 02

  It's a really hard question because I keep thinking of one country and then I'm switching my answer to think of another country. And I was just in Japan two months ago, that country just works. Everything works in Japan and Korea, East Asia, Taiwan, I love Taiwan.

• 40:01Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 40:01Speaker 02

  Things work so well there. There's like no poverty. Everyone seems to be having a good lifestyle, good jobs. There's, it's clean, it's safe. Everyone looks after each other, like.

• 40:13Mark Manson?

  But is that the government? I would argue, so.

• 40:16Speaker 02

  Or the culture of the government, yeah.

• 40:17Mark Manson?

  I was so like. One of the next ones I was gonna ask is culture. I personally think culture is vastly underrated.

• 40:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:24Mark Manson?

  Cause I would say East Asia, it's it's cultural.

• 40:27Speaker 02

  I agree. It's built into the culture to be respectful, to take care of your elders, to look after each other. I think in the US, not to pick on the US, but we're not that family oriented as a culture. And when we're 18, we get the fuck out of our house. In other cultures, that does not happen. They like will live at home. Almost most of the rest of the world, they'll live at home and like be really close to their family. And maybe when they get married, they'll go live off. But I feel like that's missing here. I wish that people were more closely. You know, I'm really close to my parents. They're here now in LA. I really love spending time with them. And anytime I get the chance to share a meal or take them on a trip, I do it. But yeah, do you agree with that?

• 41:07Mark Manson?

  It's funny. I I think that cuts both ways. So I agree with you. There is something nice about how much emphasis is put on family in a lot of cultures. Particularly like Latin cultures, Asian cultures. At the same time, I have seen so many people who so much enabling of

• 41:29Mark Manson?

  just, I'm gonna sound like, God, I'm gonna sound like such an American.

• 41:33Speaker 02

  You are American, so.

• 41:34Mark Manson?

  I know. Get ready for it, everybody. Here comes the American in me. I've seen a lot of enabling, like when I've lived in those countries and lived in those cultures, I've seen a lot of enabling of what would otherwise be like a really like self actualized person. It's like, well, mom and dad are always gonna take care of them. So they just stay at home till they're like 35 and they don't never really like, you know, try to like try hard at their job and they don't like, don't really.

• 41:59Speaker 02

  That does exist.

• 42:00Mark Manson?

  Yeah. And so it kind of like, it creates complacency. And it's, you know, I look at the way I grew up and let me just say, I've gone both ways on that. Like when I first lived in Latin America, I was like, wow, it's so great. They put like such an emphasis on family. And then like, as the years went on, I was like, well, wait a second, maybe maybe the fact that like, nobody works very hard, like has something to do with the fact that like mom and dad are gonna foot the bill for everything, even when you're like 40 years old. So I

• 42:28Speaker 02

  Why is that a bad thing though for them?

• 42:30Mark Manson?

  Is it? Yeah, I don't know.

• 42:31Speaker 02

  Maybe they'd be thrilled to have that life. It's I just think it comes back to like the US is very innovative and entrepreneurial because of these things.

• 42:40Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 42:40Speaker 02

  When I was 18, I moved to Wisconsin. I didn't know anyone and I just figured out how to do my own laundry and be but like at an 18 year old.

• 42:46Mark Manson?

  Totally.

• 42:47Speaker 02

  And that helped guide me to live this lifestyle that I live now. Because of that.

• 42:52Mark Manson?

  Absolutely.

• 42:53Speaker 02

  So.

• 42:53Mark Manson?

  I I agree. I mean, it's it's you get very much into kind of this like subjective. What is a good value and what's a bad value? Everything's just a trade off. And when you look at, say, loneliness data or mental health data, these countries that have like really strong emphasis on family.

• 43:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:10Mark Manson?

  Their data is not nearly as bad as ours is, you know, part of part of our mental health crisis is that we are so atomized and independent and alone and isolated from each other all the time. We're overworked, overstressed.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  And that's not a good thing.

• 43:22Mark Manson?

  That's not a good thing. So it's a trade off. Like it's like pick your poison. Whereas

• 43:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 43:27Mark Manson?

  You know, some of these other countries, like there's a lot of people live in abusive dynamics. There's like fucked up family dynamics. There's all sorts of stuff that happens. So I I don't know. Like, it's really complicated.

• 43:38Speaker 02

  It's not like there's an answer like this is better. This is not better. It's just cool to analyze it from a global perspective.

• 43:43Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 43:44Speaker 02

  Think about these things.

• 43:45Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 43:46Speaker 02

  You know?

• 43:46Speaker 03

  Well, Mark, you have this idea that the best and the best thing about a place is usually also the worst thing about a place too. I think you would agree with that too.

• 43:54Mark Manson?

  This is my pet theory is that is that, yeah, the best thing about a country is also usually the worst thing. So like the best thing about the US is if you want to work hard and make money, you can do it here.

• 44:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 44:04Mark Manson?

  It's the best place to do it. The worst thing about the US is everything revolves around working hard, making money.

• 44:09Speaker 02

  Right, right. That's true.

• 44:10Mark Manson?

  Best thing about Brazil is it's the people are just fun loving. You know, best parties, beach beaches, barbecues, everything. Worst thing about Brazil is everybody just wants to party. Go to the beach, have a barbecue.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  Interesting. That's a good point. I never thought about it like that.

• 44:28Mark Manson?

  But you can kind of run through it with everything, you know, whether it's Japan or China or India. Like you, I think what it is, is that it tends to be that, you know, the most extreme traits about a culture tend to define it's it both its advantages and disadvantages.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  Sure. That's interesting, man.

• 44:44Mark Manson?

  Yeah. What about war?

• 44:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, war, uh, hit me some daggers here. That's it. I mean, it's underrated if you live in the country that the war is happening in.

• 44:56Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 44:58Speaker 02

  If you live in Ukraine, I mean, that's, I'm trying to go back to Ukraine in this summer if I can, but if, if you live in a country that war, like in the US, we don't have war on the ground in the US.

• 45:09Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  That's a big deal. If you live in Ukraine, you are worried that your buildings are going to be destroyed right now. But in the US, we never have to worry. And nine 11 happened, but since then, I don't know. You can fact check me, but it's not like we're, there's big attacks happening in the US often. There's shootings, that's something different, but talking about war. I think it's underrated for people living in those countries because they really, really have to worry about things happening.

• 45:36Mark Manson?

  Um, I'm interested in maybe like the dynamics of that, of like physical danger just versus like psychological stress because

• 45:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:44Mark Manson?

  One thing that I've heard, I've never been to a war zone, but one thing that I've heard is that the majority of a war zone, nothing's actually happening. Like the majority of Ukraine, there's no bombs dropping.

• 45:55Speaker 02

  Sure. Ukraine is huge.

• 45:56Mark Manson?

  But the anxiety that people live with every single day of like, you know, oh, I've got to go to Kiev to like, go see my cousin. Like that becomes a terrifying thing.

• 46:07Speaker 02

  That's why I said underrated for those people because it's, it's always a looming threat in your head and you can't not think about it all day long. I know that from just going to war zones and talking to people. So, I mean, there's not that many war zones, active war zones in the world right now. So that's a good thing. Yeah. Overall, as a global culture world.

• 46:25Mark Manson?

  Historically speaking.

• 46:26Speaker 02

  Historically speaking, I think wars are at a low point, which is a great thing. But yeah, it's, it's tricky. Um, if you don't live in a place that there's like in Canada.

• 46:38Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 46:39Speaker 02

  Sometimes I'm Canadian, just to be funny, but like, no one has any beef with Canada. You can't have beef with Canada. What are you going to hate Canada for?

• 46:46Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  I think a lot of places in the world are living, just normalizing, they're not thinking about war happening, which is good. But for people that are living in war zones, it's, it's really tricky and I feel really bad for them. It really sucks if you're in a war zone and you, you have, you're a refugee and you have to leave your own country.

• 47:01Mark Manson?

  Yeah, I don't know. I, I worry sometimes, like especially with how fast everything is these days, how quick news cycles are, how, how, how quick our attention spans are getting all the social media feeds and everything. It feels like we're forgetting quicker.

• 47:21Mark Manson?

  Maybe, and maybe part of it's I'm just becoming that like cranky old man that like. It's definitely part of it. I just like, I don't know, like I look at, I look at some of the narratives around some of the, the, the geopolitical issues today and it's just like shocking the lack of historical context that, that people don't have.

• 47:40Mark Manson?

  So yeah, I don't know. That's something I've been thinking about a lot lately. So you think we're all screwed in the future, like the way, the way we're heading. So, you know, media evolves, right? Like from books and newspapers to TV and radio to, and now to the internet and social media, right? And, and again, there are trade offs with each. And I think what concerns me is that social media is, it's extremely good, like our current media environment, I think we have access to more information than ever before. So you are able to know a tiny bit about more topics than ever before. So I think like in our parents' generation, our parents would probably know a decent amount about a few topics and then nothing about everything else.

• 48:22Mark Manson?

  Whereas today, everybody knows a tiny bit about a hundred, hundreds and hundreds of different topics. But, so it gives you the illusion of being informed when you're not informed at all. Interesting. And so I, I think the, there is more discourse and wider discourse around almost every issue, but the quality of each discourse has gotten much worse. Like dude, have you ever gone back and watched like a PBS special from like the eighties? It's so smart. It's so fucking smart and nuanced. Like go watch like an old Charlie Rose program from like 1985 or like see an old Carl Sagan thing. I'm like blown away. It's like college level lectures, you know, delivered on cable TV.

• 49:05Mark Manson?

  And that was the only thing that they had. They weren't able to Google it. They weren't, they could talk to their friends about it, but that was it. That was it. So it, it not to say that like, oh my God, we should go back to the eighties. I'm just saying that like, we've made this trade off, just based on our media ecosystem. We've made this trade off, whether we're, we're aware of it or not, of like, we've basically traded in a, a quality of information on a small number of topics for low quality information on every top, every topic imaginable. And I, I think that is repercussions, especially in our politics. Like I think we're seeing that repercussion in our politics and the narratives that go on around it. I'll put my soapbox away now.

• 49:40Speaker 02

  No, that's, that's, that's good. It's interesting to think about these things really is because I don't always think about them, but that's very true. You could make the argument though, that it's, it's also good to know what's, be aware of what's happening.

• 49:51Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 49:51Speaker 02

  In, in many different parts of the world, but yeah.

• 49:54Mark Manson?

  It's, it's, you don't want people to be completely naive, but then sometimes it's like knowing a tiny bit in some ways is, is worse than knowing nothing because if the person who knows a tiny bit doesn't realize they only know a tiny bit.

• 50:09Speaker 02

  They think they know everything.

• 50:10Mark Manson?

  So they think that they think they're informed. Anyway, what's curious to me too, is that this dynamic seems, it seems to be really affecting a lot of countries and cultures. And then some other, other countries and cultures seem to be kind of immune to it.

• 50:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 50:23Mark Manson?

  But I, I have no idea why that is. So you hit your goal of, of visiting every country. You've got a book about it.

• 50:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:30Mark Manson?

  You've got the YouTube channel.

• 50:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:31Mark Manson?

  Like what's next?

• 50:33Speaker 02

  That's the grand question.

• 50:34Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 50:35Speaker 02

  Um, I want to keep telling stories at a higher level, which means just getting myself becoming a better storyteller interviewer, just kind of diving deep around a certain you know, topics that I want to talk about. And I have a great team who helps me edit the videos and you know, we work together and, and we really just all try to tell the best stories and I want to elevate that. So our stories have gotten longer over time, um, which is a good thing. It's if you can hold an audience for a longer, especially on YouTube.

• 51:02Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 51:02Speaker 02

  As you know, if you can hold an audience longer, it's better. Um, but I'm not focused on the destination. I'm more focused on the story. So I don't really care where I go. I just want to tell impactful stories. They generally lead me to places like, you know, Somalia or wherever, Iran, Turkmenistan. I'm trying to go back to those two, Western Sahara. I just got my visa. So generally I'm in places like that, but I just, I just want to tell good stories.

• 51:25Mark Manson?

  Last two questions. What do you give too many fucks about?

• 51:29Speaker 02

  Golf.

• 51:31Speaker 02

  I'm like a massive golfer. It's my alter ego and I don't talk about it publicly because people think it's so boring. But I really, I was at the masters. I like, I'm obsessed with golf and I try to play in all countries. Okay. Best golf course in the world?

• 51:45Speaker 02

  The best course is probably Augusta where the masters is, but the best course I've played is a course called Sakom Tuam Lam Golf Course in Vietnam. Okay. It's the most pristine, beautiful, Vietnam's so good. We didn't talk about it on this podcast. What, what part of Vietnam? It's near Delat. It's in central South Vietnam. Okay. Yeah. It's a great country all across the board. It's such a, I love Vietnam. I used to live in.

• 52:07Speaker 03

  Golf course. I never would have thought.

• 52:09Speaker 02

  I lived in San Jose for eight months and it's a really beautiful place. Nice. But, um, yeah. Was that the answer you wanted? Or was it any answer? It can be any of that. There's no right or wrong here. It's the only time I have four hours uninterrupted. I put my phone away and I just focus on golf and it's really good to have that. For anyone else, find your golf. So whether it's hiking or whether it's fishing or, you know, BMX motorcycle, like whatever you can do that just kinda. You know who Peter Attia is? Yeah. He, he did, I was at a YouTube retreat in Montana with Mr. Beast and a bunch of creators and he spoke and he talked about this a lot. He's like, everyone needs to find that. Thing, activity that can turn your brain off and you're just focused on a game. Yeah.

• 52:50Speaker 02

  Everyone needs that. And for me, that's golf and I, I really have grown to love it more because of that. Yeah. You know? That's awesome. And everyone's like, you should create a golf, a golf channel, which I did at one point and I'm like, no, then it's gonna ruin it. It's gonna ruin the golf industry. So, yeah, I think everybody should try to find something that they can do that they don't even think about their phone. They don't think about texting someone. They don't think about work. It could be going for a walk, but if you go for a walk, then you're thinking about, it has to be like. An activity. A reaction sport. Yeah. Someone throws a baseball at you, all you can think about is catching the baseball. So whatever thing that would be for you.

• 53:25Speaker 03

  I do woodworking.

• 53:26Speaker 02

  That's great. That's a perfect example.

• 53:28Speaker 03

  You, you better bring it too, or else you're gonna cut your finger off.

• 53:30Speaker 02

  It's a reaction thing. You can't, you can't not think about woodworking. Yeah. You know? I think that's it's really, this is really important.

• 53:37Mark Manson?

  It is.

• 53:37Speaker 02

  It's super important. I'm really stressed all the time. My lifestyle, always anxious going into war zones, even though I play it off cool, I'm still worried.

• 53:46Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 53:46Speaker 02

  At a certain point. So I gotta find these times that I can kind of like chill out a little bit.

• 53:49Speaker 03

  We need to get this guy, one of those. You need a golfer or something.

• 53:53Mark Manson?

  Woodworking?

• 53:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, you need.

• 53:54Mark Manson?

  I hate golf, dude.

• 53:54Speaker 03

  Why don't you come into the shop with me?

• 53:56Speaker 02

  Just be a woodworker.

• 53:57Mark Manson?

  I surf, dude.

• 53:58Speaker 03

  You could sand. I'll teach you how to sand.

• 53:59Speaker 02

  Are you, do you like sports in general?

• 54:01Mark Manson?

  Uh, yeah, I mean, I like watching sports. I, I like surfing. I've gotten into surfing since I moved here.

• 54:06Speaker 02

  That's perfect.

• 54:06Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah. I actually tell people it's like my golf.

• 54:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:10Mark Manson?

  Cause it's just, uh, yeah, I love getting out on the water.

• 54:13Speaker 02

  That's a perfect thing.

• 54:14Mark Manson?

  Just tune out, watch the waves, try to catch one or two.

• 54:17Speaker 02

  You hate golf because it's frustrating? It's hard to be good.

• 54:20Mark Manson?

  Dude, the learning curve, it's deceptively difficult. It's deceptively difficult. And then it, and it is very long. It's very, very.

• 54:27Speaker 02

  I'm grateful that my dad enrolled me in golf lessons when I was like 12. So

• 54:31Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 54:31Speaker 02

  From a young age, I was able to kind of figure it out.

• 54:33Speaker 03

  I'm from Arizona too.

• 54:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, from Arizona.

• 54:34Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 54:35Speaker 02

  But yeah, it's, it's really hard.

• 54:37Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 54:37Speaker 02

  It's, it's annoyingly hard.

• 54:38Mark Manson?

  I tried to pick it up like maybe six or eight years ago because it was, it was one of these things where I'm like, wow, there's all these really impressive people who love the golf. Like I should learn to golf so I can spend time with really.

• 54:49Speaker 02

  It's a good networking.

• 54:50Mark Manson?

  Interesting. Yeah. Like, yeah, get FaceTime with people and, uh, yeah, I fucking hated it.

• 54:55Speaker 02

  Surfing, there's not too much FaceTime.

• 54:57Mark Manson?

  Well.

• 54:57Speaker 02

  They're like, what's up dude? Boom.

• 55:00Mark Manson?

  It can actually, it, it's a nice, it's a nice bro hang activity. So like if you.

• 55:04Speaker 02

  I guess while you're waiting for the wave.

• 55:05Mark Manson?

  Right. Cause you, you've got all this time to kind of just sit in the water together and you don't have to take a wave. Like you can.

• 55:10Speaker 02

  Just hang out.

• 55:11Mark Manson?

  You can let waves go by. Like if you're having a good conversation, you just let waves go by.

• 55:14Speaker 02

  Interesting. Yeah. I've tried surfing a few times and I, I can't stand up on the board, but.

• 55:18Mark Manson?

  It's similar to golf in that it's deceptively difficult.

• 55:21Speaker 02

  I'm pretty coordinated with that stuff. I just can't figure out surfing.

• 55:23Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 55:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:24Mark Manson?

  It's hard.

• 55:25Speaker 02

  I'll have to try it in the future.

• 55:25Mark Manson?

  It's hard. I'm still bad at it, but you know, I love it. All right. And then what do you give too few fucks about? Apparently hanging out in war zones. I'm gonna, I'm gonna answer that one for you.

• 55:34Speaker 02

  I was gonna say like, I have, I have no like, I can't.

• 55:39Mark Manson?

  Your gauge of danger seems to be a little askew.

• 55:42Speaker 02

  I'm like numb to it. I'm completely numb to it.

• 55:44Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Well, I hope you live.

• 55:48Speaker 02

  Me too. Thank you.

• 55:52Mark Manson?

  True Vinsky, everybody.

• 55:56Mark Manson?

  I joke around, but it is really cool what you're doing. And it is, I mean, honestly, what you said is 100% true, which is there are places in the world where the stories are underserved and the people are underserved in terms of having their stories broadcast to the world. So like, we need people like you to go there and broadcast those stories. So I am selfishly grateful for what you do and what people like you do. Maybe skip Mogadishu on the next itinerary.

• 56:26Speaker 02

  But next time you head somewhere like Budapest or wherever, just let me know. I can give you some advice or whatever story you're making is probably something I've thought about or that I can help you with.

• 56:35Mark Manson?

  Cool.

• 56:36Speaker 02

  Steer you in the right direction.

• 56:37Mark Manson?

  Appreciate it.

• 56:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, no problem.

• 56:38Mark Manson?

  Awesome, man.