Zoe Lister-Jones is Carrying Secrets

Welcome back! This week’s guest is the talented Zoe Lister-Jones! Zoe and Caleb talk a harrowing trip they took together across the pond, navigating love and relationships, self talk, gossip, and much more! Join our Substack for ad free full episodes, early access to merch, our community chat, and more! https://calebsaysthings.substack.com/ Follow Zoe! @zoelisterjones Follow the show! @sooootruepod Follow Caleb! @calebsaysthings Produced by Chance Nichols @chanceisloud Get bugs out of your house with Pestie. Go to https://pestie.com/SOTRUE for 10% off your order. Go to https://www.squarespace.com/SOTRUE to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code SOTRUE. Shop now at https://Fabletics.com/sotrue to get seventy to eighty percent off everything when you sign up as a new VIP. Our listeners can buy one prescription pair and get 20% off additional pairs at https://WarbyParker.com/SOTRUE - and using our link helps support the show. #WarbyParker #ad So True with Caleb Hearon is edited and engineered by Nicole Lyons. Our social media manager is Virginia Muller. All episodes are filmed in The So Trudio at Legitimate Business World Headquarters in Brooklyn, New York. A Wave series. wavesportsandentertainment.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  Ugh, I hate Mondays.

• 0:32Speaker 02

  King's Hawaiian cinnamon swirl bite?

• 0:33Speaker 01

  Uh, Taylor Hansen? Sure, I'll try one. Mmm.

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• 0:45Speaker 03

  Taylor Hansen? Nice.

• 0:47Speaker 02

  Try one.

• 0:48Speaker 03

  Mmm.

• 0:52Speaker 04

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• 1:00Speaker 05

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• 1:34Speaker 06

  There are 53 players on an active NFL roster.

• 1:38Speaker 07

  Oh, brother.

• 1:42Speaker 07

  53?

• 1:45Speaker 06

  Answer, Zoe.

• 1:47Speaker 07

  I can't.

• 1:48Speaker 06

  You have to.

• 1:56Speaker 06

  Joey.

• 1:56Speaker 07

  Hi.

• 1:57Speaker 06

  How's it going babe?

• 1:58Speaker 07

  It's good.

• 1:59Speaker 06

  It's good to see you.

• 2:00Speaker 07

  I'm so happy to be here.

• 2:00Speaker 06

  You've been avoiding me like the plague.

• 2:02Speaker 07

  LOL.

• 2:03Speaker 06

  You've been avoiding me like the damn plague.

• 2:04Speaker 07

  Oh my god.

• 2:05Speaker 06

  You've been walking the other way. You see me walking down the street, you cross the street.

• 2:08Speaker 07

  I do.

• 2:08Speaker 06

  And hold your purse tighter.

• 2:10Speaker 07

  Yeah. That's right.

• 2:12Speaker 06

  You've been avoiding me.

• 2:12Speaker 07

  Because you are a known thief.

• 2:14Speaker 06

  Well, well, I actually, I actually was on a date with a guy recently who was like, who was like, oh god, I just, one of my biggest things, I love to steal.

• 2:23Speaker 07

  I'm obsessed with him.

• 2:25Speaker 06

  And I was like, just from like-

• 2:25Speaker 07

  Lock it up.

• 2:26Speaker 06

  I was like, just from like corporations, right? He was like, no, house parties.

• 2:29Speaker 07

  Not house parties.

• 2:31Speaker 06

  I was like, are you gonna steal stuff from my house?

• 2:34Speaker 07

  Did you invite him into your home?

• 2:36Speaker 06

  Not yet, but I'm looking forward to it. I don't have anything to steal. I don't really have, I don't really have anything to steal.

• 2:41Speaker 07

  That's actually such a fun game, to see what he would steal from you.

• 2:44Speaker 06

  I'm gonna put out little traps for him. I'm gonna put out, like, you know how they, how rich people do for the maid? To try and catch her in a thief? I'm gonna do that for the guy I'm seeing.

• 2:53Speaker 07

  Get some like teddy cams?

• 2:54Speaker 06

  Uh huh. That'd be, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh! Who told me this? Okay, I'm not, oh my god. I just heard, ah, ah! I just heard the juiciest gossip recently.

• 3:05Speaker 07

  Please, I live for this.

• 3:06Speaker 06

  Now, I don't know these people.

• 3:08Speaker 07

  Of course.

• 3:08Speaker 06

  Okay, so, mind you, these people are strangers to me.

• 3:12Speaker 07

  And that's the best kind of gossip there is.

• 3:13Speaker 06

  I couldn't reveal too much about them, even if I wanted to. My friend-

• 3:16Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 3:16Speaker 06

  -told me about their friend.

• 3:18Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 3:19Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 3:19Speaker 07

  I'm following.

• 3:20Speaker 06

  Okay, they have, there's three friends involved. Shelley, David, Mark.

• 3:25Speaker 07

  These are fake names?

• 3:25Speaker 06

  Yes, of course. Shelley, David, Mark.

• 3:27Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 3:28Speaker 06

  Shelley and David are a heterosexual couple.

• 3:30Speaker 07

  Yeah, I hate to hear it. Okay.

• 3:32Speaker 06

  You hate to hear it, heterosexual monogamous couple. They're in their early 30s.

• 3:35Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 3:36Speaker 06

  Heterosexual monogamous couple, early 30s.

• 3:38Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 3:39Speaker 06

  It's a tale as old as time.

• 3:40Speaker 07

  It is.

• 3:42Speaker 06

  What were their names? Shelley and Mark.

• 3:44Speaker 07

  Shelley and Mark.

• 3:45Speaker 06

  David. David is Shelley's gay best friend.

• 3:48Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 3:49Speaker 06

  Also early 30s.

• 3:50Speaker 07

  I've seen this movie.

• 3:50Speaker 06

  Single gay guy.

• 3:51Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 3:52Speaker 06

  Okay?

• 3:53Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 3:55Speaker 06

  Shelley checks the dog cam one day. Guess who's getting head from the gay best friend? Her.

• 4:03Speaker 07

  Mark.

• 4:03Speaker 06

  Husband!

• 4:08Speaker 06

  Whoa.

• 4:09Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 4:10Speaker 06

  Getting slurped off.

• 4:12Speaker 07

  Wow.

• 4:12Speaker 06

  By the gay bestie. Now, she had no suspicions.

• 4:17Speaker 07

  How long have they been together?

• 4:18Speaker 06

  Checking the doggy cam, I don't know those details because they're perfect strangers to me. I'm so sorry. Checking the doggy cam, uh oh, that's my gay best friend slurping off my husband.

• 4:28Speaker 07

  And?

• 4:29Speaker 06

  Taking the skin off my husband's thing with his mouth.

• 4:32Speaker 07

  An oral circumcision.

• 4:34Speaker 06

  An oral circumcision. Throwing neck for my hubby.

• 4:38Speaker 07

  Wow.

• 4:40Speaker 06

  On the doggy cam. Whoa.

• 4:42Speaker 07

  Whoa.

• 4:43Speaker 06

  They ought to call it the oral cam. You know, because what was going on on there?

• 4:50Speaker 06

  Crazy.

• 4:51Speaker 07

  What?

• 4:52Speaker 06

  Crazy, crazy, crazy. And guess what?

• 4:54Speaker 07

  What?

• 4:54Speaker 06

  That was hot to me. I want to see the video. I.

• 4:58Speaker 07

  Interesting. You're looking, you're like, you got a cut kink.

• 5:01Speaker 06

  I thought it was hot. I thought it was hot. Cut kink?

• 5:04Speaker 07

  Like cuck?

• 5:05Speaker 06

  Oh, I thought you said cut. I was like, I was like, I don't, I don't care. I don't care if it's cut or not.

• 5:11Speaker 07

  You got a cut kink?

• 5:12Speaker 06

  Have a good time.

• 5:12Speaker 07

  No, a cut kink, like you want to see someone get.

• 5:15Speaker 06

  No, I don't think that I do, but I do, I have recently, did I say this on the show already? I've recently been experimenting. I think cheating is kind of hot. Now, that having been said, I don't do it. I don't do it and no one should do it to me and it's only hot if, well.

• 5:31Speaker 07

  It's three people you don't know.

• 5:32Speaker 06

  If it's three people you don't know, it's kind of hot. And if it's gay, like if it's straight to gay cheating, that's hot to me.

• 5:39Speaker 07

  I understand.

• 5:39Speaker 06

  Do you know what I mean?

• 5:40Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 5:41Speaker 06

  That's the hottest thing to me is straight to gay cheating.

• 5:43Speaker 07

  Yeah, because it's also, it's like affirming.

• 5:46Speaker 06

  Well, yeah, it's like, okay, I knew this was fun.

• 5:49Speaker 07

  You, yeah.

• 5:50Speaker 06

  I knew being gay was fun and now it's like unavoidable, like even straight people are doing it.

• 5:54Speaker 07

  You sort of have to support that cheating.

• 5:55Speaker 06

  Right.

• 5:55Speaker 07

  Because.

• 5:56Speaker 06

  Well, because like, welcome to the community.

• 5:57Speaker 07

  Exactly.

• 5:58Speaker 06

  That's my brother.

• 5:59Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 5:59Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 6:00Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 6:00Speaker 06

  Caught on the doggy cam, getting sucked off by the gay best friend. Well, well, well, well, well. I, I would, and it made me think, you know what I would love to do at some point in my career? I would love to host a Jerry Springer type of show.

• 6:12Speaker 07

  I would love to be involved in some way, anyway.

• 6:15Speaker 06

  Not some dumb ripoff. I'm talking OG, original Jerry Springer style. I wear a suit, we bring these people out.

• 6:22Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 6:22Speaker 06

  Maybe afterwards, they get into some huge fight in the parking lot that makes the news. That's the kind of stuff I'm a little interested in right now.

• 6:28Speaker 07

  Cause that's like a gotcha show. That's like a gossip gotcha.

• 6:31Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 6:32Speaker 07

  Cause these people don't know. When they were going on Jerry Springer.

• 6:34Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 6:35Speaker 07

  Were they unaware of what they were being brought into? They knew.

• 6:39Speaker 06

  Did you watch the Jerry Springer documentary?

• 6:40Speaker 07

  No, I didn't.

• 6:41Speaker 06

  Did y'all watch the Jerry Springer documentary? Oh my goodness, it was juicy. Oh, it was incredible. But that's, they talked to, um, they interviewed some of the producers who convinced people to come on.

• 6:51Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 6:51Speaker 06

  And no, a lot of times they were tricked. A lot of times they didn't know.

• 6:53Speaker 07

  They were tricked.

• 6:54Speaker 06

  And I wouldn't do that part. Everyone would be willing participant in my idea.

• 6:58Speaker 07

  And like, give me like an example of like a top notch, like sweeps week episode.

• 7:04Speaker 06

  Um, I would bring on, like for example, in, right now, instead of just talking to you, I would ambush you.

• 7:12Speaker 06

  I would ambush you with three of your former lovers. Who would pull up, they would come, they would walk in the door in probably, what is it, five or 10 minutes? Uh, five or 10 minutes with stools, each of them, and they would set up a row of stools back here and I'd be like, let's get into it.

• 7:25Speaker 07

  Oh my God. Can you imagine if in five or 10 minutes Chance opened the door and they all walked in?

• 7:30Speaker 06

  Wouldn't that be fun?

• 7:33Speaker 07

  I mean, kind of.

• 7:34Speaker 06

  Yeah, God, there's so many things I want to say right now that I don't think I can.

• 7:40Speaker 07

  I know it. And I know where you're going with it.

• 7:42Speaker 06

  So many things I want to say right now that I don't think I'm allowed to say.

• 7:47Speaker 07

  It would be a wild ride. Let's just say that.

• 7:49Speaker 06

  Let's just say that.

• 7:50Speaker 07

  Let's just say that.

• 7:51Speaker 06

  Let's just put it like that.

• 7:51Speaker 07

  That'd be a good episode.

• 7:52Speaker 06

  Let's just put it like that.

• 7:53Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 7:54Speaker 06

  Um, Zoe, what's been going on with you? Will you, will you download me? You've been avoiding me like the plague. What else?

• 7:58Speaker 07

  Yep. Um, what's been going on? I mean, you know, as you know, it's like really investing in myself.

• 8:06Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 8:06Speaker 07

  Lot of therapy.

• 8:07Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 8:08Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 8:08Speaker 06

  Now let me ask you something. Cause you've been in a lot of therapy as long as I've known you, right?

• 8:14Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 8:14Speaker 06

  What's going?

• 8:15Speaker 07

  What's the end game?

• 8:16Speaker 06

  Have we, whoa, have we?

• 8:19Speaker 07

  We haven't figured it out.

• 8:20Speaker 06

  Well, I'm just curious. What's going on in there?

• 8:22Speaker 07

  A lot.

• 8:23Speaker 06

  Yeah?

• 8:23Speaker 07

  A lot.

• 8:24Speaker 06

  Are you still in the group therapy?

• 8:25Speaker 07

  Still in group therapy.

• 8:26Speaker 06

  Okay. And I know I'm not allowed to talk about stuff that goes on in there, but.

• 8:30Speaker 07

  I mean, still in, last time that we saw each other.

• 8:33Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 8:34Speaker 07

  You said something like, when will the lesbians have enough therapy? Something along those lines.

• 8:40Speaker 06

  When will we, you start to think at a certain point, we should have figured something out, right?

• 8:44Speaker 07

  God, no.

• 8:45Speaker 06

  No, no.

• 8:46Speaker 07

  Uh-uh. This day and age? No.

• 8:49Speaker 06

  Fuck.

• 8:49Speaker 07

  It's a sort of spiritual excavation.

• 8:51Speaker 06

  What are you finding?

• 8:53Speaker 07

  I mean, cause you know, we go into, not in my therapy, but I, I, I visited a witch near the airport. And she told me all about my past lives. So the excavation is, I mean, we've got centuries.

• 9:06Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 9:07Speaker 07

  You know, to explore.

• 9:08Speaker 06

  Do you feel there's a point where we're thinking about ourselves too much? Do you fear that?

• 9:13Speaker 07

  A hundred percent.

• 9:15Speaker 06

  Totally. Just checking, just checking, just checking, just checking.

• 9:17Speaker 07

  A hundred percent. I would love to not think about myself as much. Yeah.

• 9:23Speaker 06

  Yeah, okay, interesting.

• 9:24Speaker 07

  But it's like, you know, I'm trying to get, here's the thing that I admire about you. And it's the only thing.

• 9:32Speaker 06

  Yeah, just one.

• 9:33Speaker 07

  Cause there's a lot to also be concerned about.

• 9:35Speaker 06

  Yeah, condemn. Disavow.

• 9:37Speaker 07

  To condemn and disavow.

• 9:40Speaker 07

  Is that like, I feel like you generally have a real grasp on like happiness.

• 9:48Speaker 06

  Whoa. Whoa. That's really sweet.

• 9:53Speaker 07

  Don't you think?

• 9:53Speaker 06

  Oh, I hope so.

• 9:55Speaker 07

  And I, mine is slippery at best.

• 9:58Speaker 06

  Is it?

• 9:59Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 9:59Speaker 06

  I feel that you're happy.

• 10:01Speaker 07

  I, I'm like, um, I think I'm a pleasure seeker.

• 10:08Speaker 06

  Totally.

• 10:09Speaker 07

  Whether I'm happy or not is sort of, that's what we're, that's what we're paying the big bucks for.

• 10:13Speaker 06

  Wow. Zoe, you've brought us something very important. Pleasure and happiness are not the same thing.

• 10:17Speaker 07

  No.

• 10:17Speaker 06

  All the time.

• 10:18Speaker 07

  No.

• 10:18Speaker 06

  Pleasure and happiness are not the same thing. That's actually a lesson I've been dealing with the last couple of years.

• 10:22Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 10:22Speaker 06

  Cause my twenties, I was just like, I overcame, people are tired of hearing me talk about this on the show. I overcame my suicidal ideation.

• 10:30Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 10:31Speaker 06

  My sophomore year of college. Yes, I wanted to kill myself. Yes, I had plans.

• 10:35Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 10:35Speaker 06

  I didn't do it. And then I was like, fuck it. I'm having fun every minute of my life.

• 10:39Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 10:39Speaker 06

  Until it's over.

• 10:40Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 10:41Speaker 06

  And then I got to like 28 and I was like, this isn't necessarily the same thing as happiness.

• 10:48Speaker 06

  Do you know what I mean?

• 10:48Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah.

• 10:49Speaker 06

  Right. Did you have a similar journey?

• 10:51Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah. I mean, mine was later in life. Well, I mean, I went hard in my twenties, but then in my late thirties, which is in my future, I'm just kind of talking about what I'm seeing.

• 11:04Speaker 06

  What will happen later.

• 11:05Speaker 07

  Yeah, later in my life. I, I went hard.

• 11:09Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 11:10Speaker 07

  And there is something so like liberating.

• 11:12Speaker 06

  I feel like that's when I came to you.

• 11:14Speaker 07

  That is when you came to me.

• 11:15Speaker 06

  I think that's when we became friends.

• 11:16Speaker 07

  It is.

• 11:16Speaker 06

  Cause I felt I, we started hanging out and I was like, damn, this bitch. She's really going after everything.

• 11:25Speaker 07

  I was going after everything.

• 11:27Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 11:28Speaker 07

  Including you.

• 11:28Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 11:29Speaker 07

  I mean, we barely knew each other and you said, you want to come to Europe?

• 11:34Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 11:34Speaker 07

  And I said a hundred percent. What was it? Two and a half weeks?

• 11:38Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 11:38Speaker 07

  Strangers.

• 11:39Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 11:39Speaker 07

  I said, yeah.

• 11:40Speaker 06

  I actually remember we were, I, yeah, we had been, we had hung out a little bit.

• 11:44Speaker 07

  We weren't strangers.

• 11:45Speaker 06

  I had said, no, but I'm, I'm on your side. It was pretty, I had said kind of half-heartedly.

• 11:53Speaker 07

  No, it wasn't.

• 11:54Speaker 06

  I had said like, oh, I hope.

• 11:55Speaker 07

  Roll this back.

• 11:56Speaker 06

  I hope she won't take me up on this.

• 11:59Speaker 07

  No.

• 12:00Speaker 06

  I said, we were at lunch.

• 12:02Speaker 07

  Dinner.

• 12:03Speaker 06

  No. Yeah, you're right. We were at dinner.

• 12:06Speaker 07

  Yep.

• 12:06Speaker 06

  I said, I'm going to Europe. Do you want to come?

• 12:08Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 12:08Speaker 06

  It wasn't half-hearted. It was a totally genuine invitation.

• 12:10Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:11Speaker 06

  I didn't think you would say yes.

• 12:12Speaker 07

  Absolutely not. Why would I?

• 12:13Speaker 06

  There's no way she'll say yes to this.

• 12:14Speaker 07

  That's right.

• 12:14Speaker 06

  And you're like, yeah, I'll come. Yeah, I'll come. I was like, okay. And then we went to London.

• 12:19Speaker 07

  We went to Amsterdam.

• 12:20Speaker 06

  We started in London.

• 12:22Speaker 07

  Started in Amsterdam.

• 12:23Speaker 06

  No, we did not.

• 12:24Speaker 07

  Yes, we did.

• 12:24Speaker 06

  No, Zoe, we did not.

• 12:25Speaker 07

  Yes, we did.

• 12:26Speaker 06

  No, we did not.

• 12:27Speaker 07

  Yes, we did. We went to Amsterdam and that, we were in that lake house.

• 12:30Speaker 06

  Have we gone to London a second time?

• 12:31Speaker 07

  No, but, but London was so.

• 12:34Speaker 06

  We took a train from London to Amsterdam. We landed in London.

• 12:36Speaker 07

  You're right.

• 12:37Speaker 06

  I know that I'm right. And do you know how I know I'm right? We were in the back of one of those goofy little fucked up British taxi cabs and you're like, you're like, you're like, should we go straight to the spa? I was like, I guess. And you got on the phone and you're like, two massages in, how long will it be? Forty-one minutes? Two massages in forty-one minutes? And then I got a massage and felt the worst I've ever felt.

• 12:56Speaker 07

  Wait, why?

• 12:56Speaker 06

  They always make me feel bad. And then I'm pretty sure I had COVID in Amsterdam.

• 12:59Speaker 07

  Well, we both had COVID.

• 13:00Speaker 06

  For sure.

• 13:01Speaker 07

  But we had a time.

• 13:02Speaker 06

  Oh, my God, we had a time.

• 13:03Speaker 07

  We had a time.

• 13:04Speaker 06

  We almost missed the Boy Genius concert.

• 13:07Speaker 07

  Oh, my God.

• 13:08Speaker 06

  Because remember, they didn't, we were, we were at a train station in Brussels.

• 13:11Speaker 07

  With Holmes.

• 13:13Speaker 06

  Was Holmes there for that?

• 13:13Speaker 07

  Oh, no, she, they came to the Boy Genius concert.

• 13:16Speaker 06

  They came to the Boy Genius concert. It was Holmes and Dan Levy.

• 13:18Speaker 07

  In Brussels, we almost, yes.

• 13:21Speaker 06

  We almost missed our train.

• 13:22Speaker 07

  That's right.

• 13:23Speaker 06

  Because we were just sitting. They don't, they don't make any announcements. They don't tell you anything.

• 13:26Speaker 07

  You were in the gift shop buying a tiny bell.

• 13:28Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 13:29Speaker 07

  And you were just ringing it. And then suddenly it was like, oh, my God. We were jingle jangling.

• 13:34Speaker 06

  We're jingle jangling.

• 13:35Speaker 07

  And we couldn't, they were really rude, too.

• 13:37Speaker 06

  They were really rude. They saw a side of me that very few people have seen.

• 13:40Speaker 07

  I've seen it.

• 13:41Speaker 06

  I got mad.

• 13:42Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 13:42Speaker 06

  They were mean to us.

• 13:43Speaker 07

  They were very mean.

• 13:44Speaker 06

  And I was, yeah, I was mad. They were really, really rude to us.

• 13:47Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 13:47Speaker 06

  I didn't like it.

• 13:48Speaker 07

  Me neither.

• 13:48Speaker 06

  I don't like when people are rude to me. I'm unique in that way.

• 13:51Speaker 07

  You are unique.

• 13:51Speaker 06

  You have to be nice to me.

• 13:52Speaker 07

  But you know what? You do step to people who are rude to you in a way that I respect.

• 13:56Speaker 06

  Yeah, because they're being rude to all of us. It's crazy.

• 13:58Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 13:59Speaker 06

  Because I start very nice. I'm like,

• 14:01Speaker 07

  Very nice.

• 14:01Speaker 06

  I want to be nice to everybody.

• 14:03Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 14:03Speaker 06

  But if you're rude to me, if you want to have a bad day, we can have one. And I will, I will participate in it.

• 14:07Speaker 07

  That's right.

• 14:08Speaker 06

  If you want to have a bad day, let's both have one.

• 14:09Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 14:09Speaker 06

  I just don't want to. I'd rather have fun.

• 14:11Speaker 07

  Me, too.

• 14:12Speaker 06

  So then it makes me even more mad that I'm like, you know how lovely of an interaction we could have had?

• 14:15Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 14:16Speaker 06

  We both could have went to sleep smiling and kicking our feet about this tonight.

• 14:19Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 14:19Speaker 06

  But instead, you wanted to be evil.

• 14:21Speaker 07

  Evil.

• 14:22Speaker 06

  And I can be evil. Do you feel that you can be evil?

• 14:26Speaker 07

  Evil?

• 14:27Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 14:28Speaker 07

  You can't be evil.

• 14:28Speaker 06

  No, I'm not evil. Do you feel, what do you feel you're capable of? What's the worst thing you think you're capable of, and the best?

• 14:35Speaker 07

  The worst thing I'm capable of, I think I can be nasty.

• 14:38Speaker 06

  How, how so?

• 14:40Speaker 07

  Like, if I'm really, well, I can be nasty and gossip.

• 14:44Speaker 06

  You are a gossip.

• 14:46Speaker 07

  I'm a gossip and I'm working on that.

• 14:48Speaker 06

  Are you?

• 14:48Speaker 07

  Do you, do you consider me a gossip more than other people are gossips?

• 14:51Speaker 06

  No, not at all.

• 14:52Speaker 07

  Thank you.

• 14:53Speaker 06

  But I do know there are friends that I, if I have gossip, maybe I'll take it to them and they'll be like, oh, that's interesting. And if I bring gossip to you, you're like.

• 15:00Speaker 07

  I'm slurping that shit. I'm slurping that cock right up.

• 15:04Speaker 06

  Yeah, you're on the doggy cam.

• 15:05Speaker 07

  David, I'm on the doggy cam.

• 15:06Speaker 06

  Going down on that gossip. Yeah.

• 15:08Speaker 07

  Give it to me. I live and die for gossip.

• 15:11Speaker 06

  You love gossip. That's not even really your fault, though.

• 15:15Speaker 07

  It's not my fault. The thing is, people bring it to me.

• 15:17Speaker 06

  Right.

• 15:18Speaker 07

  I think because I slurp it.

• 15:19Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 15:19Speaker 07

  They, they know, I'm an active, setting an active.

• 15:22Speaker 06

  If you bring it, they will slurp.

• 15:24Speaker 07

  And if you slurp it, they will bring.

• 15:25Speaker 06

  Hello?

• 15:25Speaker 07

  Yeah, so, um, so I'm like, I am, I am the carrier of many secrets as well.

• 15:31Speaker 06

  That's a beautiful thing to say about yourself. That's an awesome, people used to talk like that.

• 15:35Speaker 07

  I am the carrier of secrets.

• 15:37Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? I, I am Zoe, carrier of secrets. That's beautiful.

• 15:41Speaker 07

  Thank you.

• 15:41Speaker 06

  Of Brooklyn, Zoe of Brooklyn.

• 15:42Speaker 07

  Zoe of Brooklyn, carrier of secrets.

• 15:44Speaker 06

  When are you going to move back to New York? I think we've had it with the LA era, haven't we?

• 15:47Speaker 07

  Do you think so?

• 15:48Speaker 06

  Well, you have a beautiful home there. I do love your house, but, um, aren't you, I mean, don't you just feel that it's time to come on home?

• 15:55Speaker 07

  It's, I would say that your time here is one of the more enticing elements, but, but.

• 16:08Speaker 06

  This is exactly what I've been banging on.

• 16:10Speaker 07

  I know it and I don't like it.

• 16:12Speaker 06

  Oh.

• 16:13Speaker 07

  But I, I, I do think about it. I have so much fun when I'm here.

• 16:20Speaker 06

  Come on home.

• 16:22Speaker 07

  But I also.

• 16:23Speaker 06

  We want you back.

• 16:24Speaker 07

  I know.

• 16:25Speaker 06

  Sorry, you also what?

• 16:25Speaker 07

  It's just, this is the, so when I lived in New York, I had a friend come who was like, lived in LA. And I thought she was so cool. And she was like, um, I love to visit New York, but could never live here. And that turned me off. To her for eternity.

• 16:46Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 16:46Speaker 07

  I was like, that person's not cool.

• 16:47Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 16:48Speaker 07

  That person will never be cool to me.

• 16:49Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 16:49Speaker 07

  And now I am that person.

• 16:51Speaker 06

  You're not that person.

• 16:51Speaker 07

  A little bit.

• 16:52Speaker 06

  You're not that person.

• 16:53Speaker 07

  A little bit.

• 16:54Speaker 06

  Come on, Zo.

• 16:54Speaker 07

  I know. Maybe.

• 16:56Speaker 06

  Come back to New York.

• 16:57Speaker 07

  Maybe, maybe when I turn 30.

• 16:58Speaker 06

  Move back to New York, reshave your head when you turn 30, it's very funny. Reshave your head, bring back your shaved head era.

• 17:04Speaker 07

  Don't you think?

• 17:04Speaker 06

  I never got to know you during that.

• 17:05Speaker 07

  I was thinking about it, actually.

• 17:07Speaker 06

  I never got to know you when you had like a faux hawk and you were playing in fucking bands. I didn't get to know that, Zoe.

• 17:12Speaker 07

  I know. I think we should bring her out.

• 17:14Speaker 06

  Tell me about her.

• 17:15Speaker 07

  I sort of had to play a game of catch up. I don't know if you felt this way, but because I was so prudish in high school, in college, I was like, we gotta get this high and pop.

• 17:28Speaker 07

  Any takers?

• 17:29Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 17:29Speaker 07

  Yeah. And there were. There were takers. But I sort of moved through, I think, like, important sexual crossroads in too much of a hurry at that stage of my life because I was feeling like I had to catch up. I don't know if you experienced that or if you're interested in talking about it.

• 17:54Speaker 06

  I go, anyway.

• 17:56Speaker 07

  Anyway.

• 17:57Speaker 06

  No, totally. I feel, I feel really grateful for, I feel really grateful for a lot of things about my young sexual experience and one of them is that I, I'm grateful for my prudishness and I'm grateful that I wasn't hooking up with 40 year old men on Craigslist. I, I really, really, really hope that, I don't mind an age gap. Like, I don't mind someone, I'm not really prudish about age gaps in general.

• 18:18Speaker 07

  Me neither.

• 18:18Speaker 06

  But specifically, this is such a different thing that I'm like, when you're a child, I just really, even like guys in their twenties, I was like, if there was a guy on Grindr when I was seven, 16, 17, and he was 24, to me at the time, I was like, I think that would be a really bad idea. And I'm glad that I had that sense of like, Responsibility about it. Yes, totally. But then it didn't. No, I did not in college do anything about it. I was, if anything, more prudish in college. Oh, you were? Yeah, I was just so focused on, I just grew, I grew up really poor and I was so focused on success. Yeah. And I also, for a number, you know, I think success for me at that age was about a lot of different things, but it was about, it was about proving my value. It was about proving that I'm different than where I'm from.

• 18:59Speaker 06

  It was about validating that I'm different than where I'm from. Actually, it's a good thing that I never feel like I fully fit in where I'm from because it means I'm this other thing, which is successful and smart and the person who always wins. And it was like, I'm gonna get out, I'm not gonna be poor, I'm not gonna be struggling with the bills for the rest of my life, like a lot of my family is. Yeah. And also, I'm fat and gay and those things are, in many spaces, like undesirable. So basically, it was like, if I can just like be the most successful person in the world, I think I can be untouchable and I can overcome this, like these things that I don't like about myself. Yeah. So college was like, that went into overdrive. Like, I was in like, everything. I was in every club.

• 19:38Speaker 06

  I was at every meeting. I was at every protest. I was like, all my classes, like I needed to have As. I needed to like, it was really, which is of course why I ended up suicidal.

• 19:49Speaker 06

  It's like, that's not a good way to live. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, it was total overcompensating. It was total like, it was total, um, just like insecurity on, on blast. Thankfully, it went that way and not like a worse way. Yeah. That's not healthy, but it's not like, you know, doing mess. It's served you. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For a while. And then it didn't. Yeah, yeah. But no, it was so, all that is to say, no, I was not, I would say even when I got to Chicago, after college, I was still really fixated on success and trying to prove to myself that like, choosing to pursue comedy was not a huge mistake. And that I wasn't like ruining my life, doing this stupid foolish like thing. Yeah. I would say I started doing that thing probably.

• 20:36Speaker 06

  Like when I moved, like maybe in my late twenties, like in my, my mid to late twenties.

• 20:42Speaker 07

  And we met in your late twenties.

• 20:44Speaker 06

  We sure did.

• 20:45Speaker 07

  So we both.

• 20:45Speaker 06

  You and I linked up at a really beautiful.

• 20:47Speaker 07

  Beautiful moment.

• 20:49Speaker 06

  We were both really hungry.

• 20:51Speaker 07

  We were hungry. We were hungry.

• 20:53Speaker 06

  But how was the, how was the college catching up period? Did you feel like it was healthy, unhealthy, detrimental, positive?

• 20:59Speaker 07

  Detrimental, unhealthy.

• 21:01Speaker 06

  For sure.

• 21:01Speaker 07

  Yeah, no worries.

• 21:02Speaker 06

  Just checking.

• 21:03Speaker 07

  No worries. Yeah. Everything's fine now. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I went to, I went to fucking acting school.

• 21:11Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 21:12Speaker 07

  So it was also like dire in terms of options.

• 21:18Speaker 06

  At NYU?

• 21:19Speaker 07

  At NYU.

• 21:20Speaker 06

  Wow.

• 21:21Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 21:21Speaker 06

  I guess the grass is always greener. Cause I gotta tell you, I was sitting at Missouri State going, man, if I was at NYU, I'd be taking them down.

• 21:28Speaker 07

  You'd be in a different category. I think as like, at the time, I identified as a straight woman.

• 21:34Speaker 06

  Really funny, by the way.

• 21:35Speaker 07

  Which is hilarious.

• 21:36Speaker 06

  You with a shaved head, you with a shaved head doing, doing panty bits at the rock show being like, I am traditional, if anything.

• 21:43Speaker 07

  Conservative even. Yeah, no, I, I, I identified as straight. I had always had crushes on, on girls and to be honest, they thems before they knew they were they thems.

• 21:55Speaker 06

  Totally.

• 21:57Speaker 07

  But I was like afraid of it, even though I was surrounded by so many dykes. Like my whole childhood was just, it was dyke day. Dyke day every day.

• 22:07Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 22:08Speaker 07

  And still it was scary to me, very scary to me to like actually acknowledge my sexuality. So all to say that at NYU, it was like, you know, male actors.

• 22:20Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 22:21Speaker 07

  Tough.

• 22:23Speaker 07

  Present company excluded.

• 22:24Speaker 06

  No.

• 22:25Speaker 07

  Cause I don't think you identify as an actor.

• 22:28Speaker 07

  And I'm gonna say that for you.

• 22:29Speaker 06

  That was hurtful.

• 22:30Speaker 07

  For you.

• 22:30Speaker 06

  That was hurtful. You go.

• 22:31Speaker 07

  Can I say something?

• 22:34Speaker 06

  You go, you go, you go, present company excluded because you're not talented.

• 22:39Speaker 07

  Because, let's be honest, you're not an actor.

• 22:40Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's be honest, you don't have it.

• 22:42Speaker 07

  Here's the thing. I don't identify as an actor.

• 22:45Speaker 06

  No.

• 22:46Speaker 07

  And I feel in the same vein, you don't identify as an actor.

• 22:49Speaker 06

  No.

• 22:49Speaker 07

  We're so much more, right?

• 22:50Speaker 06

  We're so much more, guys, please.

• 22:51Speaker 07

  We're so much more.

• 22:52Speaker 06

  Please, please, please.

• 22:52Speaker 07

  Yeah, we're not just actors.

• 22:53Speaker 06

  No, I feel exactly what you. I actually had the thought when you said male actors that I was like, ooh, yeah, and specifically actors. They don't write, they don't.

• 23:01Speaker 07

  Correct.

• 23:01Speaker 06

  There's nothing else going on other than like, there's something very specific about a man who is only an actor.

• 23:08Speaker 07

  Very specific.

• 23:09Speaker 06

  It's a very intense kind of like.

• 23:11Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 23:12Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 23:13Speaker 07

  He's sucking off Mark on the doggy cam.

• 23:14Speaker 06

  Yeah, God. And I wanna watch.

• 23:18Speaker 07

  I wanna watch. That's the best performance of his career.

• 23:21Speaker 06

  I wanna watch.

• 23:23Speaker 07

  Yeah, so it was, so I didn't, it was a tough time, but also I was, I think I.

• 23:29Speaker 06

  I'm sorry.

• 23:31Speaker 07

  What?

• 23:32Speaker 06

  I just remembered a joke.

• 23:33Speaker 07

  Go ahead.

• 23:34Speaker 06

  That I heard once.

• 23:34Speaker 07

  Go ahead.

• 23:35Speaker 06

  Do you know this one? All right.

• 23:37Speaker 07

  Wouldn't know.

• 23:38Speaker 06

  There's this joke that goes like, um, it's, um, you know, what's the, you know, uh, there's a show 90210.

• 23:45Speaker 07

  Correct.

• 23:46Speaker 06

  Right, from back in the day.

• 23:47Speaker 07

  Of course.

• 23:47Speaker 06

  You know about this.

• 23:47Speaker 07

  I do.

• 23:48Speaker 06

  And it's called that because it's the zip code of Beverly Hills, right?

• 23:51Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 23:52Speaker 06

  What's the, what's the? There's another popular show from that time called Dawson's Creek. What's the zip code in Dawson's Creek, do you know?

• 24:02Speaker 07

  No.

• 24:04Speaker 06

  90108.

• 24:10Speaker 06

  I mean.

• 24:10Speaker 07

  I gotta go.

• 24:11Speaker 06

  Come on.

• 24:12Speaker 07

  I gotta go.

• 24:12Speaker 06

  Isn't that fun? Don't leave me.

• 24:15Speaker 07

  90108.

• 24:16Speaker 06

  90108. For us to be over. That's funny.

• 24:21Speaker 07

  That's funny.

• 24:22Speaker 06

  Anyway, what was going on with you in college?

• 24:24Speaker 07

  Anyway, so.

• 24:25Speaker 06

  Your sex was bad, your sex was bad for you.

• 24:26Speaker 07

  My sexuality was repressed and I was sort of forcing myself to have sex with male actors.

• 24:35Speaker 08

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• 25:04Speaker 01

  Ugh, I hate Mondays.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  King's Hawaiian Cinnamon Swirl Bite?

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Uh, Taylor Hanson? Sure, I'll try one. Mmm.

• 25:13Speaker 03

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• 25:15Speaker 01

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• 25:19Speaker 03

  Taylor Hanson? Nice.

• 25:21Speaker 02

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• 25:22Speaker 03

  Mmm.

• 25:26Speaker 04

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• 25:34Speaker 05

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• 26:04Speaker 07

  No, I... What was going on? I was a wild child in college.

• 26:08Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 26:09Speaker 07

  And I met my gay best friend in the laundry room, classically, of my dorm. And then we just, like, went buck wild.

• 26:18Speaker 06

  Who's this?

• 26:18Speaker 07

  On the streets of New York City. His name is Ryan.

• 26:20Speaker 06

  You still friends?

• 26:21Speaker 07

  Um, not really.

• 26:23Speaker 06

  Wow.

• 26:24Speaker 07

  Not not friends, but we just sort of lost touch.

• 26:27Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 26:28Speaker 07

  And we... It was like New York at that... New York at that time.

• 26:34Speaker 07

  It was unbelievable. I mean, you would've... You would've died. The music scene, it was New York 2000 to 2004. So it was like Strokes, Yee Yee Az, like, all of... It was indie sleaze. It was height of indie sleaze. And so we were just, like, out every night at shows and just, like, going nuts. I was never wearing pants, you know what I mean?

• 26:56Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 26:57Speaker 07

  And, um...

• 26:57Speaker 06

  What were you wearing?

• 26:59Speaker 07

  Just shirts.

• 26:59Speaker 06

  Nice.

• 27:00Speaker 07

  Yeah. And, um...

• 27:03Speaker 06

  You would have loved New York in this time. I wasn't wearing, I was wearing only shirts.

• 27:06Speaker 07

  I mean, you would have loved that.

• 27:08Speaker 06

  Love that.

• 27:10Speaker 07

  But I will say, still in college, I was like performing, performing wild child. And I was a wild child, but sexual intimacy, intimacy again was like, kind of, I wasn't really, I wasn't as free as I was.

• 27:27Speaker 06

  Purporting.

• 27:27Speaker 07

  Purporting.

• 27:28Speaker 06

  So you were fucking?

• 27:30Speaker 07

  Here and there.

• 27:31Speaker 06

  Not even really, not having that much sex?

• 27:33Speaker 07

  Not really. I was in a very codependent relationship with my gay best friend. And we, and we were sort of, it sort of isolated and insulated us from fucking. And then once he started fucking, I was like, huh, damn.

• 27:47Speaker 07

  Cause then he was like, he became really sexually liberated.

• 27:50Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 27:52Speaker 07

  And I still wasn't. Took until probably like 37 when we met for me to really find it.

• 28:01Speaker 06

  Yeah?

• 28:02Speaker 07

  I mean, kind of. It was around that time in my life that I really, I think this happens for, for many cis women, like late 30s to early 40s. There is like a sexual, an internal sexual revolution that's occurring.

• 28:19Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 28:21Speaker 07

  That is pretty cool.

• 28:22Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 28:23Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 28:24Speaker 06

  That's really interesting. I've, I've, I've felt that. Like I felt that in our friendship. I've witnessed the, the permutations and the changes and the, I know what's going on over there. To some extent.

• 28:34Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah.

• 28:35Speaker 06

  That's really interesting. So yeah, the codependent friendship in your twenties can really,

• 28:42Speaker 07

  It's a cockpock.

• 28:43Speaker 06

  Take things off the rails. Well, it's a cockpock and it's also a very confusing. Yeah, I'm, I'm just glad you had yours with a gay man.

• 28:49Speaker 07

  Who was yours with?

• 28:51Speaker 06

  Well, I just mean that most of the women I know have had that intense psychotic codependent friendship with another woman. And they are varying levels of queerness and God help you if two straight women get into a. But let's just say lesbian codependent friendship.

• 29:06Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 29:06Speaker 06

  It gets really fucking confusing very fast. And having to be on the perimeters of that. And like, I feel like, do you know, in movies, after something big has happened, there's always that one non-speaking character who runs in with one of the blankets and wraps it around the person? That's me with lesbian codependent friendships. I'm just waiting with the blanket, like, whenever you're ready. You know what I mean?

• 29:25Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 29:25Speaker 06

  I have had to, I've had to bring the blanket to so many girls.

• 29:28Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 29:30Speaker 06

  That are like, she's just my friend. It's like, okay. If you say it, but you're really upset she couldn't go to dinner. You know what I mean? So something more might be going on.

• 29:37Speaker 07

  Totally.

• 29:39Speaker 06

  But I'm glad yours were the gay man, because it's very clear.

• 29:41Speaker 07

  It was very clear.

• 29:42Speaker 06

  Still bad, but clear.

• 29:43Speaker 07

  Bad, but clear. And that's sort of, yeah, the theme of my life. Bad, but clear.

• 29:47Speaker 06

  Hey, I understand what's going on, and I don't like it.

• 29:53Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah. But it, but, you know, and then I, um, I started dating, I started dating, yeah, men who were, or I started dating a boy in college. He was sort of my first boyfriend. And, and, um, yeah, I'll say it. It was like, he had, he had attempted suicide.

• 30:15Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 30:15Speaker 07

  And then went to the psych ward. And that's when I decided, you're the one for me.

• 30:20Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. You said, hey.

• 30:22Speaker 07

  Because he had a crush on me before that.

• 30:24Speaker 06

  Yeah, before the suicide?

• 30:25Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 30:26Speaker 06

  Attempt, sorry.

• 30:26Speaker 07

  Yes, yes, before the attempt.

• 30:28Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 30:28Speaker 07

  Um, and then I, it took, I mean, it really speaks, it's a lot of what we're unpacking. It's like, I, I, yeah, was attracted to the chaos, I think.

• 30:40Speaker 06

  You liked, you thought, you were like, this is fun, that he's gone to the ward.

• 30:44Speaker 07

  I didn't think it was fun. I was very concerned for him.

• 30:47Speaker 06

  Yeah, okay.

• 30:47Speaker 07

  But I, but it's interesting that that was like, that's the guy.

• 30:51Speaker 06

  That's what flipped the switch.

• 30:52Speaker 07

  That's, that's what flipped the switch.

• 30:54Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 30:54Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 30:57Speaker 07

  And, and that, yeah, yeah. And I think then that's something that I sort of continued to repeat to varying degrees of like, yeah, being attracted to probably the chaos of my childhood, if we're really getting into it. And I've been in enough therapy, if you want to talk.

• 31:14Speaker 06

  If we really want to talk about where this comes from.

• 31:16Speaker 07

  Just down the block from here, starting around four. It was really chaotic. Yeah. So I think that, anyway. But, but then he was like my first boyfriend and treated me pretty poorly and set off sort of a chain reaction of toxic dysfunctional relationships.

• 31:32Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 31:32Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 31:33Speaker 06

  And how are you doing now?

• 31:37Speaker 06

  How's it, how's it going now?

• 31:39Speaker 07

  The way you wanted to get out of that.

• 31:41Speaker 06

  I don't.

• 31:41Speaker 07

  No, no, no.

• 31:42Speaker 06

  One thing about me, I don't, I will, I will stay in it for as long as you'd like to. It means nothing to me.

• 31:47Speaker 07

  That's the scary part.

• 31:48Speaker 06

  You know what's sick about me is I, I actually had to stop myself from asking, why do you think he tried to kill himself? What happened? That's where I really wanted to go.

• 31:55Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 31:55Speaker 06

  And I decided for your sake not to.

• 31:57Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 31:57Speaker 06

  I'll be in it all day.

• 31:58Speaker 07

  Yeah. Um, he's also, he's thriving now. So he's, he's doing well.

• 32:03Speaker 06

  Nice.

• 32:03Speaker 07

  Just wanted to say that for, for the listeners out there.

• 32:05Speaker 06

  He's in the senate.

• 32:06Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 32:08Speaker 06

  He's the senior senator from South Carolina.

• 32:10Speaker 07

  James Talarico. But I, no, I, um, what was your question?

• 32:17Speaker 06

  How's, how are things going now?

• 32:18Speaker 07

  How's it going now?

• 32:18Speaker 06

  You feel like we've made some progress on this? Are you, sex and love addiction, has that ever entered your situation?

• 32:22Speaker 07

  For sure.

• 32:23Speaker 06

  Okay, cool. Just checking.

• 32:23Speaker 07

  I mean, not, I've not been diagnosed.

• 32:26Speaker 06

  Totally.

• 32:26Speaker 07

  But it's definitely something that I'm intrigued to explore once I get the time. Cause the calendar's pretty packed.

• 32:34Speaker 06

  Once I get through the, once I get through the treatments I'm in now, I'd love to walk in on love and sex addiction.

• 32:38Speaker 07

  Lock in on that kind of stuff. Well, I mean, I do think that most, many people are afflicted without really, you know.

• 32:50Speaker 07

  By definition, knowing what it, what it means.

• 32:52Speaker 06

  Totally.

• 32:53Speaker 07

  I think, yeah, especially like at one point or another in one's life, there has been an addiction to sex or love.

• 33:00Speaker 06

  I think most of our problems, most of what people refer to as like dating sucks, or dating is so hard. My feeling is that most of the time, that is like undiagnosed things going on in the community. Like you're, you're around a lot of people that are going through stuff they don't even know about. I think if everyone knew more about their stuff, dating wouldn't be so hard. But so many people in dating don't know what's wrong with them, what they're looking for, what's wrong with the person they're with, and wrong, I, I mean, like, just really, what's going on?

• 33:28Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 33:29Speaker 06

  Like, why are you behaving like that? Why do you, why do you get turned off when someone is interested in you? Does anyone have an answer to that?

• 33:38Speaker 07

  Ask me for a friend.

• 33:39Speaker 06

  Does anyone have an answer to that? When someone likes you back, why is it such a turn off to all of us?

• 33:43Speaker 07

  Correct.

• 33:47Speaker 06

  Well, y'all, spring has officially sprung.

• 33:52Speaker 06

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• 35:30Speaker 06

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• 36:55Speaker 06

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• 39:07Speaker 06

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• 39:16Speaker 07

  Here's my current theory, and I don't know if this is my so true, but here's my current theory, is that like, I think in relationships, to a greater or lesser extent, many of us are just looking for evidence that we are unworthy of being loved.

• 39:34Speaker 06

  Say it again?

• 39:36Speaker 07

  It was too good. I can't repeat it. Um, no, I think like, um, I think we're sort of all, maybe not all, but many of us are looking for evidence that we are not worthy of being loved.

• 39:49Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 39:50Speaker 07

  At least that'll speak for myself, not the community in general. He's gonna push back and I, and I can sense it.

• 39:55Speaker 06

  No, I'm really considering it.

• 39:56Speaker 07

  Do you know what I mean, though? Like that,

• 40:00Speaker 07

  it's something that I've come to very recently in my life because

• 40:06Speaker 07

  I fight really hard for romantic relationships, but I think at my core,

• 40:12Speaker 07

  I am always like, kind of looking for the ways in which someone could reject me, or the ways in which like, I might not be lovable, because I think that is unfortunately my core belief, like-

• 40:29Speaker 06

  That you're unlovable?

• 40:30Speaker 07

  Yes, and on a deep level.

• 40:32Speaker 06

  Oh, I find you so easy to love.

• 40:33Speaker 07

  Thanks. No, and I appreciate that.

• 40:36Speaker 06

  I find you so easy to love. You're talking about only romantic love?

• 40:39Speaker 07

  No, no, I mean, look, I think I am a lovable person, and I, and I love you, and I love to be loved by you.

• 40:47Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 40:48Speaker 07

  But I think that there is something like, that's like, sort of molten core, like, deeper, deeper than like, what I can know. It's like what I can know, you know what I mean?

• 40:59Speaker 06

  And what's in there?

• 41:00Speaker 07

  It's like, it's like-

• 41:02Speaker 06

  What's that part?

• 41:03Speaker 07

  That maybe I, that, that I don't actually believe I'm lovable.

• 41:06Speaker 06

  The, ah, so the, the really deep molten core-

• 41:09Speaker 07

  But down here, do I know it?

• 41:11Speaker 06

  Huh.

• 41:11Speaker 07

  You know? And I think that's like, that's why we're in all the therapy, is to sort of just chip away at that thing.

• 41:19Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 41:20Speaker 07

  You know?

• 41:21Speaker 06

  Yeah. I don't know. I don't know her. I'm not in there with her.

• 41:24Speaker 07

  I know.

• 41:25Speaker 06

  I wish I could.

• 41:25Speaker 07

  She's little.

• 41:26Speaker 06

  I wish I could tell her, yeah, I wish I could tell her how easy she is to love.

• 41:30Speaker 07

  Thanks.

• 41:30Speaker 06

  And how loved she is. But that's hard. That's really hard. I don't know. I don't, I guess I don't, um, yeah, I don't know how you, uh, get her out of there.

• 41:39Speaker 07

  I mean, it's like, I think, and this is some more therapy talk, but I do think it is like acts of self-love. I think it's not seeking it from the outside world. It's figuring out how to like be really sweet to yourself.

• 41:55Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 41:55Speaker 07

  And that's something that I really admire in you. I think you are very sweet to yourself.

• 41:59Speaker 06

  I try.

• 42:00Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 42:01Speaker 06

  I try to be. I'm getting better at it.

• 42:02Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 42:03Speaker 06

  I think I was very hard on myself for a long time and realized it wasn't really working like, or not even that. It's like, my life is great.

• 42:10Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 42:10Speaker 06

  This is the problem with anxiety and negative self-talk and things like that is like, if your life is going well, there's at least some evidence that it's working. You know what I mean? You go like, oh my God, I'm, I wish I wasn't so anxious, but fuck, if I wasn't so anxious, would I have gotten that done on time? Or would I be where I'm at? So there's like some level of like reinforcement that like, it's kind of working out, you know?

• 42:30Speaker 07

  Absolutely.

• 42:30Speaker 06

  But I realized like, I think I could get just as much done. I think I could show up just as well for my friends if I was doing all the same things I'm doing just in a sweeter way to myself. You know what I mean?

• 42:41Speaker 07

  Oh.

• 42:41Speaker 06

  Just being nicer to myself.

• 42:42Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 42:43Speaker 06

  But that realization was hard to come by. I think for a long time it was like, you have to be mean to yourself in order to get things done.

• 42:49Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 42:49Speaker 06

  Do you know what I mean?

• 42:50Speaker 07

  Well, I think, cause I have a similar experience as you, like in my childhood where I was like, I must be successful in order to like right the wrongs.

• 43:01Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 43:01Speaker 07

  Of like, or just like, I had seen how my parents are both artists and they were always like broke and struggling. And I was like, that cannot be me. And so I think I also put a lot of attention on work and being the best and like perfectionism. But perfectionism, while it can lead you to success and acclaim, can also lead to negative self-talk.

• 43:27Speaker 06

  Right.

• 43:27Speaker 07

  Because there's such a sense of like, do better, do better.

• 43:30Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 43:31Speaker 07

  You know?

• 43:32Speaker 06

  So how's it going now? Do you feel good?

• 43:34Speaker 07

  I do. I feel good now. Yeah.

• 43:36Speaker 06

  Nice.

• 43:36Speaker 07

  I think, um, yeah, life is pretty good.

• 43:39Speaker 06

  Yeah?

• 43:40Speaker 07

  I mean, the world's on fire, but I feel like I'm, um, I've found many things that bring me happiness in my life, which is really nice.

• 43:50Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 43:51Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 43:52Speaker 06

  What, what do you think? I feel like there's so many people who listen to the show that are, we're having an earnest episode, me and you.

• 43:59Speaker 07

  Is it too earnest?

• 43:59Speaker 06

  Not at all. I love an earnest episode. I, we're having an earnest episode. So I'm curious, like, if somebody's gotten this far into the episode, they're down with the earnestness.

• 44:08Speaker 07

  Oh, God.

• 44:09Speaker 06

  They're like down with the earnestness. Cause I think we have really silly episodes that I get to about this point. And I go like, I can kind of say any silly, stupid goofy shit I want. Cause if they stuck around, they're here for it.

• 44:18Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 44:18Speaker 06

  Feel the same way about earnestness that I'm like, we've had a very earnest talk. So there, I think there are, I know that there are a lot of people who listen to and watch the show that are, you know, probably in pretty similar positions to the one that you were in when you were maybe at MIU. Like they're like early twenties.

• 44:33Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:34Speaker 06

  They're going crazy.

• 44:35Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 44:36Speaker 06

  They're fucking people they shouldn't be fucking.

• 44:38Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 44:38Speaker 06

  They're anxious. They're perfectionists. They're, they haven't figured a lot of things out yet. What like, yeah, what do you think is the thing that you would tell that version of yourself now? Knowing everything you know, having been through what? 78 kinds of therapy?

• 44:52Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 44:53Speaker 06

  What would you, what would you tell her? What would be helpful?

• 44:55Speaker 07

  Um.

• 44:56Speaker 06

  Maybe someone will get something.

• 44:58Speaker 07

  What would be helpful? I mean, I think,

• 45:06Speaker 07

  you know, go toward what makes you feel good. That, and, and sometimes that's a learning curve. So it's like, sometimes something can make you feel good and then makes you feel really bad. And that's okay too.

• 45:18Speaker 06

  That's all right. Yeah.

• 45:19Speaker 07

  And that's okay. Most of the time, those two things are kind of in a Venn diagram.

• 45:22Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 45:23Speaker 07

  But like, yeah, I would say like,

• 45:27Speaker 07

  Go easy on yourself. You know, like, at every age you are, I feel like it's the oldest you feel you will ever be. You know, like, when I was in my twenties, I was like, well, this is it. Nothing else to learn. You know, I gotta get it really right. And it's like, I would just be easy on myself, enjoy my collagen and sort of the lift, the general lift that's on the face. And, um, and like, yeah, I would say, like, don't just, don't accept crumbs. That's what I would tell my, my, my 20 year old self. Don't accept crumbs.

• 46:06Speaker 07

  You're worth more than crumbs. And go after the people that like really see you and lift you up and make you feel like happy. Don't chase the thing that is like, um, going to make you feel, going to increase the negative self-talk. We have enough of that.

• 46:26Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 46:27Speaker 07

  So I think surround yourself with people and work and experiences that increase the positive self-talk.

• 46:34Speaker 06

  Yeah. I think also be honest with yourself. Some people don't need to hear this. Some of you do not need more positive self-talk. You know, we gotta really be honest.

• 46:44Speaker 07

  Correct, correct, correct.

• 46:45Speaker 06

  This is the problem with all like advice and inspiration.

• 46:47Speaker 07

  I know.

• 46:48Speaker 06

  Is like, you gotta be honest with yourself. There are some things that I hear, that I hear someone say really convincingly on the internet, that some like beautiful, older woman with the right pair of glasses, is, she's like, you have got to, and then she'll say something that I'm like, that is so beautiful and sounds so correct. And then I do a little quick self-inventory and I go, that wasn't for you, Caleb.

• 47:07Speaker 07

  Oh, and that's smart.

• 47:08Speaker 06

  You don't need that.

• 47:09Speaker 07

  Yeah, correct.

• 47:10Speaker 06

  Do you need, part of, I think this is part of the problem that we're in right now culturally, is not enough people are going, was that for me? Did I need to hear that? Do I need to respond to this? Was this meant for me? Do I need to project my life experiences onto that thing I just consumed?

• 47:23Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 47:24Speaker 06

  And not enough of us are taking a second to go like, hmm, that one doesn't apply to me. So just figure out what you need, because there are some people, okay, that have way too much positive self-talk.

• 47:35Speaker 07

  Too much positives.

• 47:36Speaker 06

  And they're not having, and it would, it would actually be helpful if every once in a while, an anxious, maybe critical voice said, do less. Do less of that. So I think, and I mean this with love, just figure out which one you need.

• 47:48Speaker 07

  Yes. And I will say that the algorithm, because you see all these, like, there's so many people giving advice on my algorithm, obviously. And they're all like, if you're seeing this, this is for you. And that, and that's not, not, not correct.

• 48:01Speaker 06

  Not necessarily.

• 48:03Speaker 07

  No. I agree with you. Some people need to tone it down.

• 48:07Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 48:08Speaker 07

  Some people could use maybe a little more humility.

• 48:11Speaker 06

  Some people.

• 48:12Speaker 07

  Some people.

• 48:12Speaker 06

  I'm not here to say who it is. I'm just saying.

• 48:14Speaker 07

  But those who are like, um, too much, or whatever, whatever, whoever the, the, the crowd is that you're speaking to.

• 48:24Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 48:26Speaker 07

  That ultimately just comes from actually being insecure.

• 48:29Speaker 06

  Totally.

• 48:30Speaker 07

  Don't you think?

• 48:30Speaker 06

  But I'm like, the solution, this, if the goal is wellness, peace with yourself, genuine happiness, as often as you can have it, the solution is not going to be the same for everybody. And the person, like, the egomaniac who hears that, if you hear, if you know that you have a big ego, there's nothing wrong with that. We can work with that. That's okay. But if you have a big ego and you know that about yourself genuinely, when you're alone with your thoughts, and no one else has to know that you know it.

• 48:54Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 48:54Speaker 06

  If you hear someone say, work on being kinder to yourself, there's a different way to apply that than sweeter self-talk. You're probably already being pretty sweet to yourself. Do you know what I mean? There's a different way to be kinder to yourself. Sometimes.

• 49:08Speaker 07

  Give me the inner monologue for that person.

• 49:10Speaker 06

  Sometimes being kinder to yourself means like, hey, uh, ask other people some questions and stop talking so fucking much.

• 49:15Speaker 07

  Got, copy. I know.

• 49:16Speaker 06

  That might be like.

• 49:16Speaker 07

  A hundred percent agree.

• 49:17Speaker 06

  So when you hear someone say maybe like, take up as much space as you need.

• 49:20Speaker 07

  No.

• 49:21Speaker 06

  That's not for you.

• 49:22Speaker 07

  Less space.

• 49:22Speaker 06

  That's not for you.

• 49:23Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 49:24Speaker 06

  You work on taking up less, cause your, your natural setting is more.

• 49:27Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 49:27Speaker 06

  Do you know what I mean?

• 49:28Speaker 07

  A hundred percent.

• 49:30Speaker 06

  I just want people to be realistic, that's all.

• 49:32Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 49:33Speaker 06

  And I'm trying to do it for myself. I hear things sometimes and I go, that's not for you. Like, I struggle to keep in touch with people. It's a really, it's this thing I'm really working on.

• 49:41Speaker 07

  Do you?

• 49:42Speaker 06

  Yes, I keep in touch as much as I can. I do okay, but it's a hu, you know, it's a big list of like people I'd like to be keeping in touch with. I could do better with people that are close to me and I want to do better. And so when I hear people be like, you don't owe anybody anything, turn that phone off. I'm like, oh, that's already my, that's already my kind of default. I need to, I need to let that one slip out of my memory a little bit.

• 50:05Speaker 07

  I will say this about you, you respond.

• 50:08Speaker 06

  I respond, but I've.

• 50:10Speaker 07

  You're not good at responding anymore?

• 50:11Speaker 06

  I'm like, kind of in my don't respond era. But here's why, though. I'm in, I'm a little bit of, not to you, not to you. Because I will say, and here's the deal, you don't ask me for much.

• 50:22Speaker 07

  Hmm.

• 50:23Speaker 06

  There, the phone has become kind of a nightmare for me. Where every time I open it, there are 70 messages minimum across platforms. And 65 of them, somebody wants something.

• 50:34Speaker 07

  What do they want?

• 50:35Speaker 06

  Anything. Can you, can you, uh, can you buy this? Can you share this? Can you post this? Can I come on your show? Can, are you gonna be in town? Can you do my show? Can you?

• 50:46Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 50:46Speaker 06

  Uh, hey, the, this, uh, this person's waiting to hear back about this. We need to schedule a meeting with this person. And some, some of it is necessary and great.

• 50:54Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 50:55Speaker 06

  I don't want a life where nobody wants anything from me.

• 50:57Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 50:57Speaker 06

  But I'm starting to get a little bit like, I'm starting to get to a point where I'm like, I'm just really not gonna respond to that.

• 51:02Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 51:03Speaker 06

  Cause I, there are times when it's inappropriate. If you ask me for absolutely anything, I would be like, for sure.

• 51:08Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 51:08Speaker 06

  But there are people who I haven't talked to in months or years, were not really particularly close.

• 51:14Speaker 07

  And they're asking for something.

• 51:15Speaker 06

  And they're asking for something that's like, that's kind of a big ask.

• 51:18Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 51:18Speaker 06

  And there's nothing wrong with asking, do your thing. I'm not mad at them for asking, but I am like, I think as much as you get to ask, I feel like I should get to just not respond.

• 51:27Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 51:27Speaker 06

  At a certain point. But I also don't fully believe that. Is the issue. It's, it's hard because it's not how I operate. You know what I mean?

• 51:35Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 51:35Speaker 06

  But I'm also like, it's making me miserable responding to all this shit. So something needs to change.

• 51:39Speaker 07

  It's finding a balance.

• 51:40Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 51:40Speaker 07

  Yeah. And prioritizing who you need, who you want to respond to.

• 51:43Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 51:44Speaker 07

  But I will say that I do, I admire how you respond. Cause I respond how you respond, at least to me. I'm a responsive, I don't leave my friends not responded to.

• 51:56Speaker 06

  Nor do I.

• 51:56Speaker 07

  For days, days, days, days, weeks. That's a tough one for me.

• 51:59Speaker 06

  I hate that.

• 52:00Speaker 07

  It's a tough one for me. So I, I am an active, I like a, a quick response time.

• 52:06Speaker 06

  That's the thing is like, sometimes I don't get a response from someone about something that isn't even me asking for something. And they're, they're 200 times less busy than I am.

• 52:13Speaker 07

  I know it.

• 52:13Speaker 06

  You mean to tell me you can't text me back? You've got nothing going on.

• 52:17Speaker 07

  That's right.

• 52:18Speaker 06

  It makes me feel crazy. Oh, well, I might. We're gonna, right now, we're gonna pause it and it's gonna play piano music and it's just gonna be a scroll, like an in memoriam. Here's everyone that has less going on than me that should have texted me back.

• 52:32Speaker 07

  Yeah, I got it.

• 52:34Speaker 06

  It makes you feel crazy.

• 52:35Speaker 07

  Crazy.

• 52:35Speaker 06

  Cause I'm like, what do you mean?

• 52:37Speaker 07

  Crazy.

• 52:37Speaker 06

  You have, you have, you're not working right now. You don't have a partner. You don't have a kid. You don't have like a parent in hospice.

• 52:44Speaker 07

  Not even a pet.

• 52:45Speaker 06

  You don't have, don't have a dog or a cat even run around the house?

• 52:48Speaker 07

  No.

• 52:48Speaker 06

  And you're telling me you can't get back to me about lunch?

• 52:50Speaker 07

  Come on.

• 52:50Speaker 06

  Something's up.

• 52:51Speaker 07

  Yep.

• 52:52Speaker 06

  Something's going on.

• 52:53Speaker 07

  That's right.

• 52:54Speaker 06

  I'm calling the cops.

• 52:55Speaker 07

  We need, that person needs more negative self-talk.

• 52:57Speaker 06

  Well, I mean, I don't want them to go negative, but I certainly want them to go critical.

• 53:02Speaker 07

  Critical.

• 53:04Speaker 06

  You know?

• 53:04Speaker 07

  It's a fine line.

• 53:05Speaker 06

  Start asking some questions.

• 53:06Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 53:07Speaker 06

  No, I don't care, whatever.

• 53:08Speaker 07

  Yeah, no, I know.

• 53:09Speaker 06

  I really don't care. I really, I'm telling you.

• 53:13Speaker 07

  After a 10 minute tirade, actually.

• 53:15Speaker 06

  I really don't care.

• 53:16Speaker 07

  I had everything I just said.

• 53:17Speaker 06

  A big thing, a big thing I've been doing lately is I'll go, I'll go on like a three minute, Michelle has heard a lot of this. I'll go on like a three minute rant about something and I'll be like, that's what I would say if I was someone who cared about that. I'm like, whatever, man. Life is hard. I don't give a fuck. Whatever.

• 53:30Speaker 07

  I know.

• 53:31Speaker 06

  Whatever. Forget it. Just forget it.

• 53:32Speaker 07

  I know. Everyone's doing their own thing.

• 53:34Speaker 06

  I need to get on a bike in the sunshine ASAP and we'll fix, we'll sort it.

• 53:39Speaker 07

  That's right. That's all you need.

• 53:41Speaker 06

  That's right. That's all I need. Yeah. God, remember when I had to kill all those spiders for you? That just came to my mind.

• 53:47Speaker 07

  Oh, my God.

• 53:47Speaker 06

  Do you remember that?

• 53:48Speaker 07

  I forgot about it until just this moment.

• 53:50Speaker 06

  That was crazy.

• 53:51Speaker 07

  There were, there were probably 40 to 50 spiders. That's not exaggeration, right?

• 53:57Speaker 06

  We stayed at an Airbnb in Amsterdam.

• 53:59Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 53:59Speaker 06

  On like, on a body of water.

• 54:01Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 54:01Speaker 06

  I wanted to swim.

• 54:02Speaker 07

  Yes. And you did.

• 54:03Speaker 06

  And you said, can you come up to my room? And I said, what for? And you said, the spiders? And I said, huh? I go up there, there are spiders lining the walls, living, crawling.

• 54:16Speaker 07

  But were you impressed with how calm I was?

• 54:18Speaker 06

  Hmm, you weren't. I don't, you have a revisionist.

• 54:22Speaker 07

  I was.

• 54:22Speaker 06

  You were shaking.

• 54:23Speaker 07

  No.

• 54:24Speaker 06

  Zoe.

• 54:25Speaker 07

  I feel like I went down like this. Hey, Caleb, can you come upstairs and just check on something for me?

• 54:30Speaker 06

  Yeah. Do you want to see what I saw?

• 54:32Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 54:32Speaker 06

  Okay, you beat me, I'll beat you.

• 54:33Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 54:37Speaker 06

  Caleb, um, can you come upstairs for a second? I want you to check on something for me. Thank you. You know, it's not a huge, but people will note the difference. There's a twitch. There's a rattling, radiating fear.

• 54:51Speaker 07

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 54:52Speaker 06

  It's basically like, if I, it's the way I would have expected you to come down if there was a man in the closet.

• 54:58Speaker 07

  I would have been like, Caleb, come upstairs.

• 55:01Speaker 06

  Real quick, I killed them.

• 55:03Speaker 07

  No, I, that actually speaks to sort of my general demeanor in my life. It's like, I believe I'm calm and I'm actually like, hey, um, can I talk to you for a second?

• 55:14Speaker 06

  Then I messaged the host.

• 55:16Speaker 07

  You sure did.

• 55:17Speaker 06

  I messaged the host and I said, hey, not trying to be crazy or anything, but we've had to kill so many spiders.

• 55:23Speaker 07

  Spiders?

• 55:24Speaker 06

  I'm wondering if maybe you send someone. She goes, she goes, oh yeah, we sent a guy over for that, but it's a, it's a new build and the ecology is still kind of getting figured out. So there's just going to be a lot of spiders. Maybe something we put in the listing.

• 55:38Speaker 07

  You, I feel like you pushed back.

• 55:40Speaker 06

  I did.

• 55:40Speaker 07

  And you said, like, this is absolutely unacceptable.

• 55:43Speaker 06

  I said, that's crazy. We paid a lot of money to stay here. I don't know that they ended up doing anything for us.

• 55:46Speaker 07

  I don't think they did anything for us.

• 55:48Speaker 06

  Yeah, but I at least said my piece.

• 55:49Speaker 07

  You did. And that's what I love about you.

• 55:53Speaker 07

  You did. And then afterwards, you're like, actually, I don't care.

• 55:54Speaker 06

  Yeah. I was like, you know what?

• 55:56Speaker 07

  You know what? We actually like these spiders.

• 55:57Speaker 06

  I'm going for a swim. First of all, I have COVID.

• 56:02Speaker 07

  Our brain fog, there were probably no spiders.

• 56:03Speaker 06

  First of all, I have COVID.

• 56:05Speaker 07

  Hallucinating.

• 56:05Speaker 06

  I've killed most of the spiders. I'm going for a COVID swim. If anybody needs me.

• 56:11Speaker 07

  We were, I mean, I do have a thing with spiders where I sort of like to, I don't like to, but I accept them as my like cohabitants.

• 56:21Speaker 06

  Not me.

• 56:22Speaker 07

  You don't.

• 56:23Speaker 06

  Not me.

• 56:23Speaker 07

  And that's why I called you up, because I can't kill, I can't kill a spider.

• 56:26Speaker 06

  They fear me. I don't care what they're doing. People say, oh, they're eating the flies. Don't care.

• 56:30Speaker 07

  No.

• 56:31Speaker 06

  Zoe, what's so true to you? You didn't think of one?

• 56:34Speaker 07

  You know, no, I did. I, well, it's sort of in line with what we've been talking about. And Rob Roush kind of, that's the snake wrangler. He sort of brings me here, too. I do think it's like the end, I hope, that for just the community at large, it's sort of the end of the era of the fuck boy.

• 56:52Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 56:53Speaker 07

  That's my, that's what I, that's what's so true to me. I believe it is the end.

• 56:56Speaker 06

  Knowing your history, you better hope it's the end of the era of the fuck they.

• 56:59Speaker 07

  Well, I was gonna say.

• 57:00Speaker 06

  I've seen the situations you find yourself in. Fuck, fuck boys have long not been the problem.

• 57:05Speaker 07

  I was gonna say.

• 57:07Speaker 07

  The they thems are the greatest offenders. They are, neither boys nor girls, but they do fuck.

• 57:12Speaker 06

  You need to champion the abolition of the fuck they.

• 57:15Speaker 07

  The fuck they is, I would say it's, I don't know if it's the end of the fuck they. That's the problem.

• 57:19Speaker 06

  No, the fuck them will continue to be a problem.

• 57:21Speaker 07

  The fuck them are still fucking them, but the, but the fuck boys, I think they're out to pasture.

• 57:27Speaker 06

  You think so?

• 57:28Speaker 07

  I think they might be. I think Tim Ote has sort of like, he's ushering them out.

• 57:33Speaker 06

  Yeah, but you're a huge fan of his.

• 57:35Speaker 07

  Huge.

• 57:36Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 57:36Speaker 07

  So it's a hard time for me.

• 57:37Speaker 06

  I can't weigh in on the discourse about him.

• 57:39Speaker 07

  We will not, and we will not.

• 57:40Speaker 06

  We're not getting into it.

• 57:41Speaker 07

  But I'm just saying.

• 57:42Speaker 06

  Let me just say this. I don't give a fuck.

• 57:44Speaker 07

  Me neither.

• 57:44Speaker 06

  Like, there's been like five crises lately that I'm like, five like big internet moments that I'm like, you, you've got to be kidding me. Would this, we care about this?

• 57:53Speaker 07

  I know.

• 57:54Speaker 06

  I can't believe it.

• 57:54Speaker 07

  And shout out to ballet and opera, but I will say, we're not gonna talk about it. We're not even gonna go there. It's so dumb.

• 57:59Speaker 06

  I don't care.

• 58:00Speaker 07

  But I will say that I think that like, yeah, he was sort of the, the flag bearer.

• 58:06Speaker 06

  Was he?

• 58:07Speaker 07

  Absolutely. What'd you say?

• 58:09Speaker 06

  I thought he was viewed as such a like sweet artsy boy. I didn't know he was viewed as like a fuck boy, was he?

• 58:14Speaker 07

  Oh, he's a fuck them.

• 58:15Speaker 06

  He's a fuck them.

• 58:16Speaker 07

  He's a fuck them.

• 58:17Speaker 06

  He's they them.

• 58:17Speaker 07

  He's the fuck them.

• 58:19Speaker 06

  Timothy Chalamet they them, reveal.

• 58:21Speaker 07

  My so true, my so true.

• 58:27Speaker 06

  He doesn't win the Oscar and he goes, you know what? Fuck it. I'm they them, what now?

• 58:32Speaker 07

  That's his, that's how he gets out of his, his soft cancellation.

• 58:35Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also cancel, I mean, the bar for canceling, I thought we were past this. I thought we were past canceling people over nothing.

• 58:42Speaker 07

  He's not canceled.

• 58:43Speaker 06

  I know he's not, but even the, even anyone caring at all, I just was like, oh my God. Here's what I need, here's what I'll say, I mean, it's not about the, that specific issue. I need most of the people on the internet.

• 58:54Speaker 07

  Yep.

• 58:55Speaker 06

  Very quickly to go outside.

• 58:59Speaker 07

  That's right.

• 58:59Speaker 06

  And find a real problem. I want you to find a real problem to have.

• 59:03Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 59:04Speaker 06

  I want you to find a real problem to have. I want you to pick something that's going on. There's plenty to pick from. I want you to pick one of the real problems that exist.

• 59:10Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 59:10Speaker 06

  And I want you to get as excited about that as you are about this dumb fucking shit that you get mad about, about your little people on your phone that you love.

• 59:18Speaker 07

  But don't you think that, and this is the gossip in me.

• 59:22Speaker 06

  Say it.

• 59:23Speaker 07

  We need frivolous gossip in order to cope with how horrific the actual world is.

• 59:32Speaker 06

  Gossip, it should be funny and lighthearted and fun.

• 59:34Speaker 07

  Correct.

• 59:34Speaker 06

  It shouldn't be like.

• 59:35Speaker 07

  It shouldn't be.

• 59:36Speaker 06

  Genuine screeds and thought pieces about.

• 59:38Speaker 07

  I know, I know.

• 59:40Speaker 06

  About something like that. That's not, to me, it's like it needs, we're treat, the problem is, yes, we do need frivolous gossip right now, more than ever.

• 59:46Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 59:47Speaker 06

  Not more than ever, we need silly frivolous gossip. I, I'm not gonna say what, but there was a really fun one recently that I'll talk to you about off camera that I've kind of caught some heat about. We mentioned it on the show. There's, there's some fun gossip about celebrities that I think we can have a lot of fun with. The couple at the Coldplay concert.

• 1:00:02Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:00:03Speaker 06

  People were upset. People cared.

• 1:00:06Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:00:06Speaker 06

  People cared.

• 1:00:07Speaker 07

  Well, of course, you love cheating.

• 1:00:08Speaker 06

  I love, I was like, I bet they're having the night of their fucking lives. I mean, imagine cheating at the Coldplay concert, I bet they had the fucking time of their lives. It's not the point, there's a New York Times article about.

• 1:00:17Speaker 07

  I know.

• 1:00:18Speaker 06

  You know, it's like, this is insanity. Get real problems now. I'm running.

• 1:00:22Speaker 07

  Get real problems now.

• 1:00:24Speaker 06

  Get real problems now.

• 1:00:25Speaker 07

  Yes. And Shalhoub is your VP.

• 1:00:27Speaker 06

  I'm Caleb Hare and I approve this message. It's insane to me.

• 1:00:31Speaker 07

  It's absolutely insane.

• 1:00:32Speaker 06

  But guess what?

• 1:00:33Speaker 07

  What?

• 1:00:33Speaker 06

  I have a game for you. Speaking of frivolity.

• 1:00:36Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:00:37Speaker 06

  We're gonna play a game. It's called True/False. Guess what, Zoe? I'm gonna read you 15 statements. You're gonna tell me as quickly as you can if what I just said was true or false.

• 1:00:45Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 1:00:45Speaker 06

  If you get 10 or more correct, we're gonna give you 50 US dollars.

• 1:00:48Speaker 07

  Unbelievable.

• 1:00:49Speaker 06

  Yes. You ready?

• 1:00:51Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 1:00:51Speaker 06

  Okay, as quick as you can. There have been two theatrically released Puss in Boots movies.

• 1:00:56Speaker 07

  True.

• 1:00:56Speaker 06

  True. The toilet plunger was invented in 1774.

• 1:00:59Speaker 07

  True.

• 1:01:00Speaker 06

  False, 1874. The CN Tower is the tallest structure in Canada.

• 1:01:04Speaker 07

  True.

• 1:01:05Speaker 06

  True. Owls have teeth.

• 1:01:11Speaker 07

  True.

• 1:01:11Speaker 06

  False. Hearing that F was so painful. Edward R. Murrow High School's colors are green and silver.

• 1:01:18Speaker 07

  Fuck, I should know that.

• 1:01:22Speaker 07

  They don't have colors. False.

• 1:01:24Speaker 06

  False, green and white. Flagstaff is the capital of Arizona.

• 1:01:28Speaker 07

  Oh, no.

• 1:01:32Speaker 07

  Oh, no. Oh, god, people think I'm smart. Um.

• 1:01:39Speaker 07

  False.

• 1:01:40Speaker 06

  False, it's Phoenix.

• 1:01:41Speaker 07

  It's Phoenix.

• 1:01:42Speaker 06

  Susan Sarandon, Susan Sarandon. Susan Sarandon is an avid supporter of ping pong.

• 1:01:48Speaker 07

  True.

• 1:01:48Speaker 06

  True. The zune is older than the blackberry.

• 1:01:51Speaker 07

  The what?

• 1:01:52Speaker 06

  The zune.

• 1:01:53Speaker 07

  The zune?

• 1:01:54Speaker 06

  The zune is older than the blackberry.

• 1:01:56Speaker 07

  I don't know what the zune is.

• 1:02:01Speaker 07

  False.

• 1:02:01Speaker 06

  False. The Grammy Awards got their name from the gramophone.

• 1:02:05Speaker 07

  True.

• 1:02:05Speaker 06

  True. There are 53 players on an active NFL roster.

• 1:02:09Speaker 07

  Oh, brother.

• 1:02:14Speaker 07

  53?

• 1:02:17Speaker 06

  Answer, Zoe.

• 1:02:19Speaker 07

  I can't.

• 1:02:19Speaker 06

  You have to.

• 1:02:25Speaker 07

  I'm frozen in fear. False.

• 1:02:28Speaker 06

  It's true. Identical twins don't have the same fingerprint.

• 1:02:31Speaker 07

  Oh, my god, I'm interested in this.

• 1:02:38Speaker 07

  True.

• 1:02:38Speaker 06

  It's true. Lollipops were named after a racehorse.

• 1:02:41Speaker 07

  I love lollipops.

• 1:02:48Speaker 06

  Answer the question. You're saying true?

• 1:02:49Speaker 07

  True.

• 1:02:50Speaker 06

  It's true. The Amazon River is the largest river on earth.

• 1:02:54Speaker 07

  True.

• 1:02:55Speaker 06

  False. It's the Nile.

• 1:02:56Speaker 07

  Fuck.

• 1:02:56Speaker 06

  Sloths can hold their breath longer than dolphins.

• 1:03:01Speaker 07

  True?

• 1:03:01Speaker 06

  It's true.

• 1:03:02Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 1:03:03Speaker 06

  NYU was founded by Stan Wood Colch.

• 1:03:08Speaker 07

  False.

• 1:03:09Speaker 06

  False. Albert Gallatin. Chance, how'd you do? Eleven. Wow! Zoe! You're $50 richer. How do you feel?

• 1:03:19Speaker 07

  I feel on top of the world.

• 1:03:21Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm. I love you so much. You want to tell people where they can find you, how they can support you, etc.?

• 1:03:25Speaker 07

  Um, @ZoeListerJones on the Gram. And I think that's...

• 1:03:33Speaker 06

  I love that.

• 1:03:34Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:03:35Speaker 06

  I love that and I love you. Thanks for doing it.

• 1:03:36Speaker 07

  I love you too.

• 1:03:37Speaker 06

  It's a great episode.

• 1:03:39Speaker 08

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop, because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece, and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 1:04:09Speaker 05

  When you shop Kroger delivery, you can expect the savings you love and fresh groceries delivered right to your door. From delicious produce to everyday essentials, enjoy the convenience of delivery and the trusted selection you've come to know from Kroger, because bringing you fresh, quality groceries is what we do best. Right now, enjoy free delivery on orders of $50 or more with your digital coupon. Restrictions apply. See site for details. Kroger. Fresh for everyone.

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  Ugh, I hate Mondays.

• 1:04:40Speaker 02

  King's Hawaiian cinnamon swirl bite?

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  Uh, Taylor Hanson? Sure, I'll try one. Mmm.

• 1:04:48Speaker 03

  Hey, let's get back to work, please.

• 1:04:49Speaker 01

  But Taylor Hanson's making my day way better with these new soft and swirly King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites.

• 1:04:54Speaker 03

  Taylor Hanson? Nice.

• 1:04:56Speaker 02

  Try one.

• 1:04:57Speaker 03

  Mmm.

• 1:05:01Speaker 04

  King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites. There's nothing like it.