Lilly Wachowski is Hosting Thanksgiving

Welcome! This week’s guest is the legendary Lilly Wachowski! Lilly and Caleb talk making a movie together, living in Chicago, the lasting legacy of The Matrix films, the importance of queer art in this day and age, stew, and so much more! Join our Substack for ad free full episodes, early access to merch, our community chat, and more! https://calebsaysthings.substack.com/ Lilly has no social media! Happy Thanksgiving! Follow the show! @sooootruepod Follow Caleb! @calebsaysthings Produced by Chance Nichols @chanceisloud Exclusive $45-off Carver Mat at https://on.auraframes.com/SOTRUE. Promo Code SOTRUE Philo’s where all the best TV comes together! 70+ live channels, unlimited DVR, with access to HBO Max Basic With Ads, AMC+, and discovery+ Sign up to start watching now: https://bit.ly/4oiweFq Listeners can save 30% on their first order at Cornbread Hemp! Just head to https://www.cornbreadhemp.com/SOTRUE and use code SOTRUE at checkout. Head to https://www.squarespace.com/SOTRUE to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code SOTRUE. Stock up on sustainable cleaning products for yourself or to give a beautiful gift to your friends by going to Blueland.com/SOTRUE and get up to 30% during Blueland’s holiday sale! About Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com. » SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1 » FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum » FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/ » FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum So True is a Headgum podcast, created and hosted by Caleb Hearon. The show is produced by Chance Nichols with Associate Producer Allie Kahan. So True is engineered and edited by Nicole Lyons. Kaiti Moos is our VP of Content at Headgum. Thanks to Luke Rogers for our show art and Virginia Muller our social media manager. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon Fall Drop, because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's Fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece, and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 0:30Speaker 01

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• 1:00Speaker 02

  My name is Taylor. The economy is crushing moms like me right now.

• 1:03Speaker 03

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• 1:18Speaker 04

  This is a HeadGum Podcast.

• 1:21Speaker 05

  That script was a perfect example of the types of films and television that I'm trying to get made. It was so funny, so hilarious, but so true, nice.

• 1:36Speaker 06

  Nice!

• 1:37Speaker 05

  Sweet.

• 1:38Speaker 06

  We'll be clipping that.

• 1:44Speaker 06

  Lilly, hi.

• 1:46Speaker 05

  Hi, Caleb.

• 1:48Speaker 06

  I'm so glad that we're here.

• 1:50Speaker 05

  Yay, me too.

• 1:51Speaker 06

  I just love you.

• 1:52Speaker 05

  I love you too.

• 1:54Speaker 06

  I'm so excited to have you here. We have been friends for a while now.

• 1:59Speaker 05

  Yes, back in work in progress days.

• 2:01Speaker 06

  Back in work in progress. How did you get involved in work in progress? I actually don't know if I know that. This is the Showtime show with Abby McEnany.

• 2:07Speaker 05

  Yes. Well, Abby lives seven minutes from my house. And we're old friends.

• 2:18Speaker 05

  After I transitioned, I went through this um searching phase where I was um um not sure I wanted to be in the movie business anymore and I started um I I struck on this idea to um uh um do stand-up comedy.

• 2:37Speaker 06

  I didn't know this, but I'm loving it.

• 2:44Speaker 05

  And I I I took comedy classes when I was in college and I liked it and it was uh I thought it was like uh I think it was like part and parcel of like the trans experience where you have to um you know build up that callus of being out in the public and so um I started doing this and um because Abby worked in um uh uh Second City and I O Theater here um I went and had coffee with her because she was um friends with my partner Mickey.

• 3:18Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:19Speaker 05

  Who you know and um we went and had coffee and uh you know I started asking her about doing stand-up and stuff and she didn't know um who I was. And um uh and then we you know we started we started hanging out and we became super fast friends and you know some years uh after that like a couple of years she started working on this show with her friend uh the co-creator Tim and um they cooked up the basically the open of the show where the therapist dies.

• 3:56Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:57Speaker 05

  And um they shot it and I said, oh my God, this is brilliant. I sent it around and I was still like not sure what I wanted to do. I was painting at that point. I I left comedy the first second time. And um uh I started painting and really enjoying myself and uh.

• 4:19Speaker 05

  And then Abby and Tim made the pilot of this show. So a year after I had sent it out, the, the little teaser, they made the pilot, came back to me and said, do you want to, um, executive produce this? And I said, yeah, you know, executive producer, you don't have to do anything. And, um, and I hopped on, it was like the first thing that, uh, brought me back to, uh, film and television. So.

• 4:47Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 4:48Speaker 06

  That's so interesting.

• 4:49Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 4:50Speaker 06

  How, I'm curious, like, when you transitioned.

• 4:55Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 4:55Speaker 06

  And that big feeling of like, I don't really know if I want to do this anymore.

• 4:59Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 4:59Speaker 06

  Uh, what made you decide to keep doing it and how, what were, what were those feelings?

• 5:06Speaker 05

  Um, I guess I was, uh, I walked away because I felt like I was, uh, I wasn't, uh, there was a grind, number one. I was, I had made three things back to back to back. So, uh, posting one and prepping the other at the same time. So, uh, we made, um, Cloud Atlas and then Jupiter Ascending and then the first season of Sensate. So right in the middle there, um, uh, my, my, my life was falling apart. And, uh, my part, my, my partner, my wife, who I, um, had been married to for many, many years,

• 5:51Speaker 05

  like almost 20 years, she was like, um, I think we're breaking up. I said, okay, I think I'm going to go on hormones. She said, good. And then, uh, started hormones on Sensate. And I was, uh, I was exhausted and, uh, extreme, like emotionally just, uh, down to a nub.

• 6:15Speaker 05

  And I came out of that experience and I was just like, I didn't, the stuff that we were making was fun and cool, but it wasn't like I had lost a little artistic spark for myself. And so I had started hormones on Sensate and then got to Post, came out to everybody on Post, started living full-time as my, you know, as a woman, trans woman. And then kind of went through this like beta stage and I would be in my little, my little

• 6:59Speaker 05

  gerbil run where I could like, you know, go to work and then get in my hamster habit trail, go to my home and then go back to work. And it was like this little thing that I was like, you know, doing a test run of my transness and came out of it and I was like, I was like, okay, now I can go do the next season of Sensate, but there was no manna left. I didn't have, I didn't have any juice. And so I was like, you know what? I think I'm gonna say so long. And, and I walked away and it was like, it was a good

• 7:41Speaker 05

  time for me because my mom and dad's health were declining. I got to, I started painting with my mom who's a painter, going to her class. And then when she couldn't do that anymore, I would go and just bring her to the studio and we, I would paint with her and my aunt and we'd have this like fun, like Thursday where we'd just paint all day. And, you know, I started, yeah, I started, it started sparking something for me as an artist again. And I, I began to enjoy creating. And so.

• 8:24Speaker 05

  Work in Progress came in like right as my mom and dad, they died.

• 8:31Speaker 05

  It's taking, this story is taking a turn. And it's also, it's also very long. So mom and dad, We're here for it, yeah. My, my mom and dad both died. They both decided that they would go off their meds simultaneously. They got the kids together and said, hey, um, your mother and I decided that we would stop taking our meds. And we were all like, uh, what? And, um, we were like, how can we help? And so that was like in the spring, by the fall, they both died. They died like five weeks apart. And then Work in Progress was like, kinda like tumbling around in there and, uh,

• 9:11Speaker 05

  and they, they brought Work in Progress to Sundance. Uh, they got some buzz and then off of that, uh, I went with Tim and Abby to LA in January.

• 9:26Speaker 05

  Had three meetings, Showtime bought it, and by that spring, we were writing the show.

• 9:34Speaker 05

  Being on that show was a, um,

• 9:39Speaker 05

  was a revelation for me because the thing that like I was missing, like that had kinda been fulfilled for me as an artist, was that I had, um,

• 9:53Speaker 05

  I, I had like satisfied a lot of stuff for myself as an artist. But getting to work on that show and like hiring the people that we hired, you know, queers and trans people and like the crew looked like Chicago. It was like completely diverse. And the show was too. And I was like, okay, there's something that's left for me to do in this business. And that is to try and like, you know, bring underrepresented voices to the forefront and get them, you know, uh, in positions that I was typically in.

• 10:35Speaker 05

  And so I, you know, I, the, the, I've been doing that for the last, um, four years, trying to do that.

• 10:45Speaker 05

  You might want to edit that one down a little bit. Not sure where you're gonna cut.

• 10:49Speaker 06

  We're gonna put some air into it, actually. We're gonna find a way to.

• 10:52Speaker 05

  Nice.

• 10:52Speaker 06

  It, uh, yeah, it, it makes total sense to me and I, I really, um, I, my,

• 11:01Speaker 06

  I was a fan of your work, obviously, because I'm a living, breathing person.

• 11:06Speaker 06

  And then I really fell in love with you, working on work in progress because of how warm and generous you are. Right when I'm saying something earnest, you're gonna open the sparkling water?

• 11:19Speaker 06

  You really didn't. I saw the care and the carefulness. But I, yeah, I, you were so warm and so generous and you and Abby and everybody who worked on that gave me two of my first shots at TV. And Abby McAdany, who is so brilliant, is somebody who I met because I was working in the box office at I O. In exchange for free classes and no money. And Abby was just so warm and lovely and you really got to know what performers in that building were playing at being, uh, warm and lovely and who it really was.

• 11:48Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 11:49Speaker 06

  And luckily, uh, Chicago comedy scene in general, it was mostly people who really were.

• 11:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 11:54Speaker 06

  Um, and are. And Abby invited me to her birthday party. And as like a, an intern at the box office and I felt like so excited that someone who was like, so talented and so, uh, uh, kind of like a, I mean, Abby was and is like a, a stalwart, like a pillar of the scene. And I feel like, oh my God, I'm invited to her birthday party. That's crazy.

• 12:18Speaker 05

  Those parties were bonkers.

• 12:20Speaker 06

  They're crazy. And it's like, it's such a testament to what kind of person Abby is that it would be like, it would be like some random intern from the box office that half the people didn't know. Be friends that she knew her whole life. And then it would be like her mailman.

• 12:31Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 12:32Speaker 06

  Like it would be the most random.

• 12:33Speaker 05

  UPS guy, yes.

• 12:35Speaker 06

  Like beautiful. And so, yeah, working on work in progress. I was so excited to go and do it in general, but then when I found out you were gonna be involved and I got to meet you. And then, uh, we, I brought Trash Mountain to you and was like, would you ever consider slumming it and working on this, this movie that I wrote about my dad dying? And we just finished making it and we really only got it made. Not only, but a huge part of the reason we got it made is because you believed in it and championed it. And yeah, I'm, I'm, uh, it's funny because I have gotten a lot of DMs about like, you were on as the director originally.

• 13:13Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 13:13Speaker 06

  And then things, we lost windows and things shifted and it was circumstances and you executive produced the film, thank God. And yeah, I'm curious, um, I'm curious how you felt about the script and what you thought of the movie? And how it feels now that it's over after like years of us trying to get it made? How was it for you?

• 13:32Speaker 05

  I mean, that script was

• 13:37Speaker 05

  a perfect example of the types of films and television that I'm trying to get made. Uh, it was, um,

• 13:46Speaker 05

  so funny, so hilarious, but so true, nice.

• 13:52Speaker 06

  Nice.

• 13:54Speaker 05

  Sweet.

• 13:54Speaker 06

  We'll be clipping that.

• 13:58Speaker 05

  Anyway, it just like, it had so much heart in it. And, uh, um, I could tell that it came from this, um, absolutely hard and real place.

• 14:13Speaker 05

  So, uh, immediately I was, I was drawn to it. And, um, you know, getting to work with you and Ruby on the script was, was just, um, was just a blast.

• 14:28Speaker 05

  I'm, I'm curious, I haven't read like the latest draft, so I don't know what the shooting draft is like. But every, uh, I, what I appreciated about the writing process, like even after I kind of like, sort of took a step back was.

• 14:46Speaker 05

  Seeing how you and Ruby kept on making these like improvements in the script and it's it's something that I think like a lot of writers don't understand that like once you write something that writing is rewriting.

• 15:04Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 15:04Speaker 05

  That you can constantly make something better and you will continue to write actually now that it's shot because you will write new lines that have to fit into people's mouths and like you know, trim up ADR and stuff. So it's not done until it's super done. But yeah, I can't wait to see it. You know, I'm, I love Chris Ray so much. I think she's wonderful and I was sure that she could make a, make something that, not just bring the, the page to the screen, but bring all that heart that was in the script initially.

• 15:46Speaker 06

  Yeah. She directed the hell out of it. We got so lucky. Andy, the DP, like everybody who worked on it was so, is just so good at what they do. I feel like we, I feel like we pulled off like a heist or something.

• 15:58Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 15:58Speaker 06

  Um, it's interesting. I feel a bit of, I'm so excited. I'm so glad that it's done. It was so difficult and fun and awesome and exciting and cool. And also I have this weird kind of like anxiety about, not anxiety, but this interesting feeling of like, it was based on my experience of my dad dying and there are still many kernels of truth in there, but like, I actually never wanted the character to be called Caleb because I was like, I know we're going to change things. I know that making a movie is negotiating. And, you know, like there are characters that are invented for the movie and there are conflicts that are invented. And I say things to my grandma as this character that I would, in ways I would never speak to my grandmother, you know? And we created conflict and we

• 16:40Speaker 06

  added things that need to happen to make a movie compelling because you can't just meander through a personal experience you had for a whole film, I guess. I mean, in some ways we do, but yeah, there are things we changed about it to make it a better script and I really believe in the changes we made. But now I, it was interesting in writing it, I only ever felt like. We're making a great movie inspired by something I went through. And I feel really passionate about all the changes we're making and I fought for the things that I felt had to stay. And I did other things that I felt needed to happen to make it an interesting movie. And then while we were filming it, I had this weird sensation several times when I had to film some of these scenes of being like,

• 17:19Speaker 06

  for the first time, thinking about what the audience is gonna think of me. And I try not to create from that place ever and not think about like, what is the perception of me as a person gonna be when I say this? Cause that's not a good place to create from. But for the first time, I got real anxiety filming this movie about like, oh god, are people gonna think that that's how I talk to my family? Or how I acted when I was grieving my dad? And in some places that is true and then other places it's fabricated. It's an interesting thing because it was the most challenging role I've ever done. Not only because I was in every scene of the movie, which is probably a choice I won't make again.

• 17:55Speaker 06

  Think this will be the last time I do that.

• 17:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 17:57Speaker 06

  Uh, but not only that, like the rigor of it, but then also this interesting thing of like, when I've performed characters in the past, it's never really mattered whether I Caleb would do that because I'm playing a character. But then when the press around it or the idea around it is that this guy is me, all of a sudden I'm having these like conflicts. Do you know what I mean?

• 18:17Speaker 05

  Yes. Well, I mean, like, I don't know how to, I don't know how to address that feeling. I do know that, um, when I, when I write nowadays, um,

• 18:36Speaker 05

  I try to write from a place of a very conscious place. So, um, like I am specifically looking for my writing to...

• 18:51Speaker 05

  Be of service to me, right? And specifically, like, I will look for ways to, you know, heal holes in my heart. And you can do that unabashedly through, you know, fictitious characters. You can draw on stuff. There's this moment in the second season in Work in Progress where me and Abby have this commonality that, you know, both of our moms are the dead mom club.

• 19:29Speaker 05

  And like her character in the story is going through all of this, carrying a lot of grief about her mom. And has, has her ashes on this shelf. And she will carry the ashes around in the show a little bit. And because my mom had just died, I was like, all of those scenes were very intense, but purposeful to write. And so there's this scene where she's going through it.

• 20:13Speaker 05

  It's like, you know, we're in the height of COVID, the height of the protests and the murder of George Floyd. And Abby's character is like, you know, completely spiraling down this, you know, doom, doom chasm. And there's a, a painting that my mom did that I'm using for set dressing. So there's this moment where it's like, it's just, the room is just filled with all of this grief. And some of it is real grief and some of it is, you know, grief expressed through storytelling. And so I would never want to.

• 21:03Speaker 05

  Like write something that isn't coming from that kind of perspective. That it's not like I want my work to have a level of catharsis for myself. And so to do that, I need to put myself into my work. And you know, if people want to read into it, you know, you just gotta go, well, do whatever you want. You have to let go of your work too. You gotta let go, you know, people are gonna interpret it however they interpret it.

• 21:41Speaker 05

  You know, it's like I look at, you know, all of the crazy mutant theories around like the Matrix films and what the crazy ideologies that those films create, helped create. And I'm just like, what, what are you, what are you doing? No, that's wrong. Yeah. But I have to, I have to let it go to some extent or else I'm engaging in, you're never gonna be able to make absolutely every single person believe what you initially intended. So I don't know.

• 22:26Speaker 06

  I know, and I do actually know that at this point in my career, which is nice. It was just the first time I think I've ever had that much trouble with it, that I know that once you do something, once you put something out, it's not yours anymore. It belongs to everyone else. I feel so sacred about the time in a creative process when something is yours. Sure. When it's just yours and you've created it and it's just with you, that then when you open it up, it becomes everyone else's. It was a very interesting creative process to, for the first time, like grapple with that in any meaningful way. I did, I was going to ask you, and I'm glad you brought it up, about the Matrix and the specific like how you've dealt with, yeah, these loser freaks.

• 23:15Speaker 06

  Like co-opting this thing to make it something. Yeah, that just must be so crazy for you to be like, why are members of the Trump administration like talking about the matrix like it was made for them and their ideology? When it came from you and you're not, that's not you at all. I mean, what do you even do with that? Other than, love it, I know you voted for him.

• 23:40Speaker 05

  I did, twice.

• 23:44Speaker 05

  Gonna vote for him next time, too.

• 23:48Speaker 05

  Uh, I don't know. I don't, I don't, I mean.

• 23:57Speaker 05

  Yeah. I have no idea. I have no idea. You, when you make stuff, you want your art.

• 24:08Speaker 05

  Let me back up. I think it's a mistake to want your art to, um.

• 24:19Speaker 05

  Let me back up.

• 24:23Speaker 05

  I don't make stuff anymore with the idea that I wanted to reach as many people as possible. I make to make, right? It's like you just finished Trash Mountain.

• 24:42Speaker 05

  That experience is the reason you're there.

• 24:48Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 24:49Speaker 05

  Not what comes after. And so as an artist, I try to be as present as possible now. This isn't, you know, what I always did. It's like taken me a while to get to this point of view. I, I want to be present and relish every single day of the making that I have.

• 25:15Speaker 05

  Because the beauty of filmmaking is that you get to come together in this community, all these different artists, and bring this thing that is in your brain into this new form. And that new form is a collective art piece. And so when I think about like The Matrix and, you know, the, you know, success that it had, I mean, that's something that I think like artists or filmmakers or any, any artist really, they place too much emphasis

• 26:00Speaker 05

  on those kinds of successes. And I don't think that that's necessarily a success. It's like,

• 26:12Speaker 05

  I don't know how the, okay, right wing ideology appropriates absolutely everything. They appropriate left wing, um, points of view, and they mutate them for their own, um, for their own propaganda, for their own to obfuscate what the real message is. This is what fascism does. And so, of course, that's going to happen. They do it with absolutely everything. They do

• 26:53Speaker 05

  it with, you know, I mean, make America healthy again is like, it's like, are you, what is going on? This idea of, um, you know, putting scientific gender in our, um, in our, in the words of our, I mean, where, where are they putting this? There, there is only two biological genders. It's, it's this, they're calling it science, but it is not science. And that is what fascism does. It like takes these things, these ideas that are generally acknowledged as...

• 27:41Speaker 05

  Questions or investigations or, you know, truisms about, you know, humanity and life. And they turn them to, um, uh, something else. So that they are, they remove the weight of, um, of what those things represent.

• 28:06Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 28:08Speaker 00

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon Fall Drop, because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's Fall line has some really versatile, transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece, and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new Fall Arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 28:37Speaker 04

  Ugh, I hate Mondays.

• 28:39Speaker 07

  King's Hawaiian Cinnamon Swirl Bite?

• 28:40Speaker 04

  Uh, Taylor Hansen? Sure, I'll try one.

• 28:43Speaker 07

  Mmm.

• 28:46Speaker 07

  Hey, let's get back to work, please.

• 28:48Speaker 04

  But Taylor Hansen's making my day way better with these new soft and swirly King's Hawaiian Cinnamon Bites.

• 28:52Speaker 07

  Taylor Hansen? Nice. Try one. Mmm.

• 28:59Speaker 04

  King's Hawaiian Cinnamon Bites. There's nothing like it.

• 29:08Speaker 05

  That was a, that was a classic Rambler, bud.

• 29:11Speaker 06

  I don't know what you're talking about. I'm having a nice time over here. You said something to me that I have thought about a lot since you said it, uh, during the initial stages of us working on Trash Mountain together, that kind of recontextualized the film for me and, or added context to the film for me and also that I've thought so much about in, in relation to my work since then, that you said like, oh, on some level, this movie is about the way that queerness, uh, springs up everywhere and takes up purchase in any place, even in the most hostile environments. And specifically, the way you said that queerness takes up purchase in hostile environments. And I hadn't thought about my work

• 29:54Speaker 06

  being about that, uh, really in those terms. And I, but it's so obviously true and so like...

• 30:05Speaker 06

  So like one of my favorite things about us, you know, and so like what I love about us and what I feel proud of about us and why I feel connected to us, all of us, any of us. And I just love that. And I think about it all the time. And I think it's such an interesting time, to put it lightly, for queer artists to like decide what we're doing right now and why we're doing all of this. And I wonder if you have any, as an artist that has benefited from your words and thoughts and generosity, I'm wondering if you have anything to say

• 30:46Speaker 06

  to the like, you know, 22 year old painter, or the 19 year old filmmaker, or listening to this about the purpose of making art right now and how to approach it when things are so fucking bleak?

• 31:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, they sure are. They sure are. I mean, one thing for sure that I always say is that we are in this period of unmaking. And I think that the, for me, I feel like the only way to counteract that is to make. You have to fill up that, that black hole,

• 31:39Speaker 05

  that widening void that is being fostered and is festering in front of all of us is to make shit. Make, make your art. And because I think like queerness for me is like it's about joy. And so queer artists in their making, that is really about those kinds of stories, those kinds of objects, you know?

• 32:20Speaker 05

  I think that that's that kind of stuff is so effective because it it gives us like I've been during this past year I've been trying to um I've been doing this trans manna refill events where I just I get together all of every single trans person that I know and that group is slowly expanding and we just go bowling or we go see a movie together or we just have drinks and there's something about just being in that space together

• 33:01Speaker 05

  that pulls you away from this portal into hell that we're all like looking at constantly and it affirms each other bodily we get to see each other and like when you talk about you know finding purchase I find purchase when I see another trans person alive and in this world at the same time that I am alive and in this world and I say ah I see you here I am look at me I'm here I'm here I see you and so that sort of stuff is

• 33:40Speaker 05

  is amplified in our art and our stories and it is a way to you know send out these signals to each other that we're not going any we're not fucking going anywhere and you know you can unmake as much as you want but our joy is going to those voids are nothing compared to what we bring to the table here so

• 34:10Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 34:13Speaker 05

  Keep making art, young queers.

• 34:14Speaker 06

  Young queers, make some art.

• 34:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 34:16Speaker 06

  Young queers, make some art, please.

• 34:18Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 34:19Speaker 06

  Yeah, I, I do feel so inspired by queerness, especially right now. And I think, yeah, I feel maybe naively, we talk all the time in the tenant union about,

• 34:36Speaker 06

  the belief that things can and will get better. And I do think that, it's radical to have hope. And I really do, even though it's really fucking hard, I really do think that we will win, uh, overall. I don't know what path that takes. And that's not to diminish at all how hard and awful it might be on the way there. Um, I'm not dumb, but I do, yeah, I do have hope that things will get better. And if I didn't, I don't know that I could create anything. And, yeah, I,

• 35:10Speaker 06

  I just want our art so badly. And I hate that we have such a commerce driven, like venture capital affected and mimicking industry right now, that there's all this talk of like a contraction, but I'm like, there's no contraction. They're making the money they've always been making. They're just not using it to pay people for their art or make things.

• 35:32Speaker 06

  I feel, I do feel discouraged by that, but I think if anything, and, and making Trash Mountain really lit me up in a way that I'm like, this is the kind of stuff I want to be making. I actually don't personally have a desire to be making, uh, 75, 80 million, 120 million dollar films. I, I really do want to be making this kind of stuff. I do want to make like sub five indies. I do think that at this moment is where the most exciting storytelling is taking place from my perspective. Um, but I'm curious, how has transness affected like coming out and, and living as a trans woman? Has it changed the way that you look at storytelling and the way you approach making art?

• 36:16Speaker 05

  Um,

• 36:19Speaker 05

  yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean, uh, you know, like, I, I look back, I, I say this thing where I look back on all of my previous work and, um, I see it,

• 36:35Speaker 05

  well, because I'm like, looking at it from this higher place, I, I see.

• 36:42Speaker 05

  I see it from, it just like creates this different perspective from my own, this point of view up here and I, you know, I can see like, you know, bound, the first shot of the movie is a closet and it's like, okay, it looks like we're gonna be working on some stuff. And so it starts there and then, you know, you go through Matrix and it's about, you

• 37:13Speaker 05

  know, liberation and, um, uh, uh, the identity and, um, yeah, like freedom and like, uh, I mean, all of those things are, are so definitely working on, uh, as a, as an art, this is a thing that's cool about making art is that you can, you can will things into being that you need to see in the world to help pull yourself along.

• 37:53Speaker 05

  So like a lot of the things that me and Lana were also writing about was love, that we needed to create stories that, that gave us a grounding to see that love was possible. Like as a trans person, the dark question that every trans person like has, or not everybody, the dark question that I had as a trans person was, who will ever, who will ever love this? And it just, it's just, it's like an Edgar Allan Poe story where you're just like cementing

• 38:36Speaker 05

  yourself up in the closet longer and longer.

• 38:40Speaker 00

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• 39:08Speaker 05

  Lemon.com now.

• 39:11Speaker 05

  And so here's me and Lana and we're like, this, this story is about love. Love is possible. These two people found each other, quirky and violet, Neo and Trinity. And it gave us this.

• 39:30Speaker 05

  It gave us this reminder that we can't, there was a future for us. And so. Now, I mean, all of that is great. I, I, I wouldn't. I wouldn't not make a story or put that in a story because. We all need to be reminded that there is love out there. There is love in the world and it doesn't have to be like a romantic love of between two peoples. It can be like just fucking love. And.

• 40:11Speaker 05

  But I, I think I don't like have, um. The things that I'm working on in my subconscious are probably a little bit different than the things that I was working on in my, with my subconscious. You know, 20 years ago. Uh, now I'm like, I think about. Like I just wrote this script, um, with Mickey, um. And it's, it's, it was just a way for us to process all of our trans rage in, that we have, you know, about the world. And so, um.

• 40:48Speaker 05

  We're Mickey's, he was, this project started before even, um, work in progress for me where he was like. He wanted to make something with me and he was like, I was completely done with movies. And he was like, come on, we can, we can make a, we can make a story and put some, you know, kick ass trans people in it. And, you know, they can kick a lot of ass. And I was like, well, I mean, that does sound kind of good.

• 41:18Speaker 06

  When you put it like that, yeah.

• 41:20Speaker 05

  And so, you know, this is in 2017 and we were, um, it was, everything was horrible. And we started, we had, we had no idea what the story was. We knew how it started. And we wrote about thirty pages or so, and it became this like,

• 41:43Speaker 05

  this way to just like, ah, I'm purging all this rage and horror out of the world into onto this page. And, um,

• 41:55Speaker 05

  and it was great. And then work in progress came along and I put it down, Mom and Dad, endless horrors.

• 42:03Speaker 05

  Fast forward to 2021, and the world is like way shittier for trans people. So we picked up the script again and started writing again. And I was like, oh, this is good. I'm gonna, oh, yeah. And then this happens. And so,

• 42:21Speaker 05

  like, for me, that kind of catharsis that I got out of

• 42:30Speaker 05

  fighting back about

• 42:35Speaker 05

  completely creating

• 42:39Speaker 05

  caricature buffoons of the right wing. Um, to create an idealized

• 42:55Speaker 05

  family, a network, a weather underground of trans people coming together and supporting each other and holding each other up, trying to create a story that is the best of us. That was like, that was,

• 43:19Speaker 05

  it gave me a new way to like, think about.

• 43:24Speaker 05

  What I want to put on the page now.

• 43:29Speaker 05

  And so I try to like, I try to be a bit more conscious as opposed to unconscious when I'm making work.

• 43:39Speaker 06

  I would categorize you in so many ways, but maybe my favorite one is Midwest legend. I'm just like, this is a Midwest legend, dude. Why, you live in Chicago?

• 43:53Speaker 05

  I do.

• 43:55Speaker 06

  How come, how come you're not off in LA or New York or somewhere? Why are you in the Midwest and how does the Midwest affect your work?

• 44:02Speaker 05

  I don't know. I spent some time in LA and I grew to, I grew to love it. It took, it took a little while.

• 44:13Speaker 05

  There's something about Chicago. Whenever I come back, it's always.

• 44:21Speaker 05

  I feel.

• 44:26Speaker 05

  Because it's been here longer, I feel like. Chicago is just like, it's got so much history. There's so many people that have come through this town.

• 44:44Speaker 05

  I mean, obviously there's like good and bad things about Chicago, but.

• 44:53Speaker 05

  The best of what Chicago is, I think is.

• 45:01Speaker 05

  That's the reason I'm here.

• 45:05Speaker 05

  I mean, I think also because I was pretty young.

• 45:15Speaker 05

  As we got started in this business, going to LA as a young person, I feel like the industry feels absolutely everywhere. And it really did back then, because this is, you know, the mid 90s. And so this is like the height of like the film industry. There is, you know, it's before like there's been all of these like mergers happening. I mean, it was always box office based back then,

• 45:56Speaker 05

  but you still were feeling like you were walking amongst giants. And it was just, the industry was just felt like it was everywhere. I mean, it was everywhere because when we would go, we would be like hanging out with, you know, muckety mucks and stuff. And they would just take us to their muckety muck places. And so you didn't get a chance to see anything outside of that. And to be that, to feel that much saturation of the business kind of made me scared.

• 46:39Speaker 05

  And so I didn't feel that at all in Chicago. I was, I could walk around in Chicago and be just another Chicagoan anonymous. And, uh, and so I always came back here. I mean, my mom and dad were from Chicago. My sisters were here and, I don't know, it's beautiful. I like the seasons.

• 47:10Speaker 05

  There's catharsis in the seasons.

• 47:12Speaker 06

  Seasons is a big one.

• 47:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, you.

• 47:15Speaker 06

  That was my biggest thing in LA. I like LA a lot. I had a lot of fun living there. I just felt like time was like escaping me all the time because nothing changes.

• 47:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:24Speaker 06

  And I was just like, oh, fuck, it's Christmas and it doesn't feel like it at all. Or shit, I've been here for four years. What happened?

• 47:30Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:31Speaker 06

  Like, you just feel like you're in like a... I love LA. There's so many beautiful things about LA. It did not, in the time I was there, feel like the industry was everywhere. It felt like the industry was nowhere and it felt like, why are we all living here to work in this industry? But there's no work happening. Um, but yeah, the seasons thing was huge. I was just like, God, I can't believe the weather's the same every day.

• 47:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, you know, you get autumn, the fall, it gets cold, and then it gets really, really cold. And then you, you go in your house and you, you make stew and you warm up your house by, oh my God, we, we're going to the polar vortex. I gotta cook something. Make some banana bread and make that in the morning and then in the evening make some chicken stew or something like that and, you know, or roast chicken, you know? And it warms, like, warms up your house and your house smells good and, um...

• 48:28Speaker 05

  Yeah, and then you get to spring and the buds start coming out and everybody's like running around in shorts and it's 40 degrees. And that's just, uh, you know, you get that like death and then birth and then life. That cycle is like, it's a microcosm of what it means to be a human being and I think like in LA that it's just different. You, you don't get that as much. And so, I mean, you get other things like, you know, fire season and, you know, floods and, you know, and then...

• 49:03Speaker 06

  Just other stuff.

• 49:04Speaker 05

  Just other stuff.

• 49:05Speaker 06

  Just other stuff that you get.

• 49:06Speaker 05

  Other kinds of death and birth and rela...

• 49:09Speaker 06

  I don't know why it's escaping me right now, but there's a poem about spring that I love. Uh, not even a poem, uh, like a, maybe I would call it an article. Is it?

• 49:20Speaker 06

  Who the hell wrote this? Chances, there's a, it's called like The Common Toad, like in praise of the common toad or something. And it's for the, it's not Oscar. It's like, the most obvious when I hear it, I'm gonna be pissed off. Is it some thought? Thots on the Common Toad by George Orwell. Yes, of course, it's Orwell, yes. And have you ever read this?

• 49:38Speaker 05

  I know.

• 49:39Speaker 06

  It's so great. It I love, it makes me, it like really lights up my love for seasons. And there's a piece of it where he's talking about,

• 49:51Speaker 06

  even if they, even if they lock all of us away in prisons for ideas or whatever, they can't take away that like when it turns to spring, the birds are still singing and the trees still bloom. And we can still see that. And so there'll be joy regardless. And as much as they'd like to take that, they can't. And it, it's really, really pretty. I'll send it to you. What's inspiring you right now? What's making you wanna, what's making you feel good and excited and creative?

• 50:21Speaker 05

  Well, Thanksgiving is coming up.

• 50:23Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 50:23Speaker 05

  So I'm, I'm, it's, I'm hosting.

• 50:29Speaker 06

  You are?

• 50:30Speaker 05

  I am hosting. It's a small group. And I, I don't have, I don't have a big house. So it, the group sort of just fits around my table. So it's, I got nine people and I'm pulling out all my old recipes. Mom and dad, Thanksgiving was always big in my house, growing up. We're, we're good eaters.

• 50:58Speaker 05

  My grandma was an amazing cook. And so all of those recipes get passed down and shared. This knowledge passed, this sacred knowledge passed to all the family.

• 51:12Speaker 05

  And so this meal is like, it's super important and it takes days to prep and plan it. So I'm in, I'm in the throes of that.

• 51:29Speaker 05

  Cooking to me is, is something that I've really

• 51:37Speaker 05

  used as lately as like meditative practice and like.

• 51:47Speaker 05

  So it's, there's something that's healing about it. It's, uh, when I make this, uh, I just made this chicken stew, um, for Mickey that he really loves. That, uh, is the Cook's Illustrated, uh, chicken stew recipe. And it's called the best chicken stew.

• 52:07Speaker 06

  Wow.

• 52:08Speaker 05

  And it is, um, it is a labor of love, uh, but it takes, it takes, it takes me a good part of the day to make. And so that's what Thanksgiving is. It's, I've started, uh, I, I've, um, I've started buying my ingredients. Gravy, Caleb is just, it's just knockout gravy.

• 52:34Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's its own dish.

• 52:35Speaker 05

  What's, uh, it's.

• 52:36Speaker 06

  It's its own dish.

• 52:37Speaker 05

  What's that?

• 52:38Speaker 06

  You've, you told me the other day, you're like, the gravy is its own.

• 52:41Speaker 05

  Yes, it's its own dish. You have to make this gravy stock. That becomes eventually the gravy, but you need all of the, the drippings from the, from the turkey to finish it off, to finish it all off. But you make the gravy like a day or two in advance. So.

• 53:00Speaker 06

  Damn.

• 53:01Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 53:02Speaker 06

  I'm, I'm really, I'm jealous of these nine people. They're living, they're living my dream. They're over there, they're over there having this gravy that's been much talked about.

• 53:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 53:11Speaker 06

  I love that. So we're inspired by Thanksgiving right now. I feel that. I'm excited. My family comes to my house every year now.

• 53:17Speaker 05

  Oh, good.

• 53:18Speaker 06

  And I hope, they come on, um, Tuesday.

• 53:22Speaker 05

  So are you having this in your new house that you just, yeah.

• 53:26Speaker 06

  And my new place is, is bigger, so I have room for everybody, um, to stay. Cause they come, my family, it used to be, my grandma would host my whole childhood and we would all go to her house and stay for like four days. Like everyone stays.

• 53:38Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 53:39Speaker 06

  We barely leave the house other than to get ingredients or go on walks or whatever. Like, it's just like we're stationed at the house. Everyone's coming on Tuesday, they're staying till Saturday. And then on the night of Thanksgiving, I, is one of my favorite, I love Thanksgiving. It's my favorite holiday of the year. I love the way it started, the politics of it, everything. And I wouldn't change a thing about the origin or the, the ideas. But I love it. I do love it. It's like, just, it's the one holiday that my family has always like gotten together for.

• 54:07Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 54:08Speaker 06

  And, um,

• 54:10Speaker 06

  Yeah, the night of Thanksgiving, it's become this tradition since I've started hosting that like, a bunch of my friends in Kansas City will come over and will like, play music, have pie, play cards, sit on the porch until like two, three in the morning, gossip. Uh, my family is also still there. So it's like, but people just, after they've finished their thing with their family or whatever, they come over to mine and have dessert.

• 54:35Speaker 05

  Oh, that's so nice.

• 54:37Speaker 06

  It's the best and it's my organizer friends, my artist friends, my buddies from college and high school. It's like this beautiful tapestry. It's like one night of the year that I really get like, the only time I come close to that is if I have a big show.

• 54:49Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 54:50Speaker 06

  There'll be many people from different areas of my life in one room. But Thanksgiving, I, it's like every period of my life, I have somebody there. And it feels so, I just feel so happy.

• 55:00Speaker 05

  That's nice.

• 55:01Speaker 06

  I'm excited about it. It's a very special thing and I, it's like, man, if it only happens one day a year, it's like, that's crazy to think about, like one day a single year where you get to do that. Um, it's pretty nice. I'm excited about it.

• 55:14Speaker 05

  I love it.

• 55:15Speaker 06

  Uh, Lily, what's so true to you?

• 55:18Speaker 05

  Okay, um, I wasn't sure I could come up with a so truism, but then I started, um, you know, plumbing the depths. A little bit.

• 55:33Speaker 06

  To the process, went through process.

• 55:34Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, I guess, uh, like when I think about art making, it's like, um, I, I don't like to, um, uh, I don't like to cast aside, uh, art of any kind. I think all art making is, I think all making can be, uh, art is art. And if you, sometimes it's like, eh, it's okay, or it doesn't speak to me, but I think it's all good. For all out there doing stuff, that's great.

• 56:09Speaker 05

  When I was

• 56:12Speaker 05

  learning how to be a writer, I read this one how to book. And one of the pieces of advice always like stuck to me. It's a very specific thing. And that is, the guy was saying, "Don't use, don't put smash cut in your scripts. Don't say smash cut to this. Just write the next scene. It's implied. What are you gonna do? Are you going to hit the edit button harder than a normal edit?" And that thing stuck with me for forever.

• 56:57Speaker 05

  And so I've refined that into this other pet peeve that I have that writers will do.

• 57:07Speaker 05

  And that writers will put in their script, though for a scene direction, they'll put the word "beat", and that will be the only sentence in that line. And they'll use it to break up two moments of dialogue. And this

• 57:32Speaker 05

  this word "beat", I do not like it. Because I think that it is a

• 57:42Speaker 05

  it is, it is, it's lazy writing. There's no, you could write anything. You can give, there's so many people that read a script and are using that script to help bring the film to its final form. You know, your production designer, your sound designer, your DP, your actors. And so the word "beat" is a way for the writer or director to put in a placeholder between two characters

• 58:23Speaker 05

  that doesn't tell anybody anything about what's going on. And I think it is like a very ungenerous

• 58:35Speaker 05

  Way for a writer to um uh tell their story.

• 58:42Speaker 06

  Yeah, I like that. I like that. That's a good so true to me. That's a good so true ism to me. Yeah, I like that. I also, I it falls in line with a similar thing that I look out for when I'm reading scripts now of if someone has written too much of the acting for me, that they they're writing like, they go so deep into it that I'm like, are you planning on not hiring an actor you trust? Like, they'll write such granular little things that I'm like,

• 59:10Speaker 05

  Like what?

• 59:11Speaker 06

  Like, they'll do like, they'll be like, he, he, like, he takes a pause, looks into her eyes, cocks his head to the right. And I'm like, well, hold like, did, there are times when that level of detail is necessary because you're setting up something so specific. But when it's not setting up anything specific and it's just going towards an action you'd like to see.

• 59:29Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 59:29Speaker 06

  It's like, well, now you're dictating the acting to the actor.

• 59:32Speaker 05

  Right.

• 59:32Speaker 06

  It gets to a certain level at a certain point, and it's a hard thing to like, pin down.

• 59:36Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 59:37Speaker 06

  That I'm like, there are times when that's called for and you can feel it in the scene where it's like, we need to see him look into her eyes because he hasn't done it so far in the scene, or it's conveying a certain emotion.

• 59:47Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 59:48Speaker 06

  That is always necessary.

• 59:49Speaker 05

  Same with camera moves, too. I think like when you're telling the director how to direct.

• 59:54Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 59:54Speaker 05

  That's another thing. Push in on this person.

• 59:57Speaker 06

  It's like, I'll decide.

• 59:58Speaker 05

  Really? Are you gonna, you're really gonna push in?

• 1:00:01Speaker 06

  Yeah. No, it's like, I'll decide. It's, it's like,

• 1:00:04Speaker 05

  Maybe it's just a cut. I can just like, cut into a punch in.

• 1:00:07Speaker 06

  Well, maybe it's a smash cut.

• 1:00:08Speaker 05

  Maybe it's a smash cut. Whiplash smash cut.

• 1:00:12Speaker 06

  Yeah. I love that one. Lily, we have a game for you.

• 1:00:18Speaker 05

  A game?

• 1:00:18Speaker 06

  Yes. We've, we've played this game with everyone who's ever been on the show.

• 1:00:22Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:00:22Speaker 06

  It's a, it's a storied tradition. It's one of the only things, we actually, we, it's funny, when Chance and I were like, concepting about this podcast, we had so many ideas for segments and one of the only ones that we have stuck with is this one.

• 1:00:35Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:00:35Speaker 06

  Not one of, the only one.

• 1:00:36Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:00:37Speaker 06

  And people would kill us if we got rid of it. We tried once to maybe not do it on a live show or something, and I mean, the dismay.

• 1:00:43Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:00:44Speaker 06

  It's a hit.

• 1:00:46Speaker 06

  We're so excited to have you play. It's, this is our true or false segment. I'm gonna read you 15 statements.

• 1:00:51Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 1:00:51Speaker 06

  You're gonna tell me as quickly as you can if you think what I just said was true or false.

• 1:00:55Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:00:55Speaker 06

  And there's a prize. If you get 10 or more correct, we're gonna give you 50 US dollars. For gravy.

• 1:01:01Speaker 05

  50 dollars?

• 1:01:02Speaker 06

  For gravy.

• 1:01:03Speaker 05

  That's some walking around money.

• 1:01:04Speaker 06

  For bread. Okay, you ready?

• 1:01:07Speaker 05

  I'll do my best.

• 1:01:08Speaker 06

  Okay. The Empire State Building has its own zip code.

• 1:01:13Speaker 05

  True.

• 1:01:14Speaker 06

  True. Winston Churchill's mother was Irish.

• 1:01:18Speaker 05

  False.

• 1:01:18Speaker 06

  False. She was American. The shortest war in history lasted 38 minutes.

• 1:01:25Speaker 05

  True?

• 1:01:25Speaker 06

  True. Speed Racer debuted in Japan in 1966.

• 1:01:30Speaker 05

  True.

• 1:01:31Speaker 06

  It's true. Amazon's Alexa is named for a French queen.

• 1:01:36Speaker 05

  False.

• 1:01:37Speaker 06

  False. It's named after the Library of Alexandria. You're killing this. Okay.

• 1:01:40Speaker 05

  Did I get the 50 bucks yet?

• 1:01:44Speaker 05

  I want that 50 dollars!

• 1:01:46Speaker 06

  Woodrow Wilson's face was on the $100,000 bill.

• 1:01:50Speaker 05

  False.

• 1:01:51Speaker 06

  True. Chicago has a larger population than Iceland.

• 1:01:56Speaker 05

  Chicago or Chicagoland?

• 1:01:59Speaker 06

  Oof. That's a great question. It's just written as Chicago.

• 1:02:04Speaker 05

  I'm gonna say true.

• 1:02:05Speaker 06

  It's true. A cockroach can live for nine days without its head.

• 1:02:10Speaker 05

  That's very specific. I'll say true.

• 1:02:12Speaker 06

  It's true. Samuel Beckett wrote A Streetcar Named Desire.

• 1:02:16Speaker 05

  False.

• 1:02:18Speaker 06

  Tennessee Williams. Carrie Anne Moss was born in Scotland.

• 1:02:22Speaker 05

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:02:26Speaker 05

  That's very specific too, but I don't think so. False.

• 1:02:29Speaker 06

  False. Canada.

• 1:02:30Speaker 05

  Yes, Canada. I knew that.

• 1:02:33Speaker 06

  Since 1912, Olympic gold medals are actually silver with gold plating.

• 1:02:37Speaker 05

  Oh. That's very specific too. I'm gonna say, no, I'm gonna say false.

• 1:02:43Speaker 06

  It's true. We got you on that one.

• 1:02:46Speaker 05

  Cheapers.

• 1:02:46Speaker 06

  Monster, Monster Energy Drinks were invented in 1989.

• 1:02:52Speaker 05

  False.

• 1:02:53Speaker 06

  False, 2002. The space between your eyebrows is called the globella.

• 1:02:57Speaker 05

  Wow. My eyebrows?

• 1:03:01Speaker 06

  Just yours. Just yours. We made one up for you.

• 1:03:05Speaker 05

  I'm gonna say true.

• 1:03:06Speaker 06

  Is true. A monkey was the first animal sent to space.

• 1:03:10Speaker 05

  False. It was a dog.

• 1:03:13Speaker 06

  False. It was fruit flies technically, I guess, is the creature, the being. Um, Michael Jordan was-

• 1:03:18Speaker 05

  That's in that Lassie Hallstrom movie, which is really nice.

• 1:03:22Speaker 06

  I don't know that movie.

• 1:03:23Speaker 05

  I can't remember the name of it, but there's this, um, My Life as a Dog, it's called. And the opening is the, this kid narrating, thinking about that dog that goes into space.

• 1:03:34Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:03:35Speaker 05

  It's very nice.

• 1:03:36Speaker 06

  I need to tap in. We have one more for you. Michael Jordan was drafted to the Bulls in 1984.

• 1:03:42Speaker 05

  True.

• 1:03:42Speaker 06

  True. How'd she do?

• 1:03:44Speaker 05

  Thirteen.

• 1:03:45Speaker 06

  Yeah!

• 1:03:47Speaker 05

  That's fifty dollars in your pocket.

• 1:03:49Speaker 06

  Might be the best performance we've ever had on the truth.

• 1:03:52Speaker 05

  Very good. It was very good.

• 1:03:53Speaker 06

  We've never had a perfect fifteen. I know that.

• 1:03:55Speaker 05

  No, and we've never had a perfect- I did guess quite a few. I'm, I, I didn't, I don't have an encyclopedia.

• 1:04:01Speaker 06

  It was a beautiful performance. We're all stunned. We're all stunned by the performance. I, I would say our most common is probably like nine.

• 1:04:07Speaker 05

  Nine is by far the most common.

• 1:04:09Speaker 06

  That feels like where people land.

• 1:04:10Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:04:11Speaker 06

  Never had a zero, never had a fifteen. I would look for, I, I think once we get a zero and a fifteen, we'll probably end the show.

• 1:04:16Speaker 05

  Yeah. A zero.

• 1:04:18Speaker 06

  Once we get both, we'll end the show.

• 1:04:19Speaker 05

  Yeah. I wanna know who that zero is out there.

• 1:04:21Speaker 06

  Oh, you will.

• 1:04:22Speaker 05

  There will be, there will be someone.

• 1:04:24Speaker 06

  We'll make a big deal out of it. Lily, thank you so much for doing this. I just love you. I can't, I can't tell you-

• 1:04:30Speaker 05

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 1:04:31Speaker 06

  How much you mean to me.

• 1:04:32Speaker 05

  I'm so proud of you.

• 1:04:33Speaker 06

  Stop it. Don't say that. Um, thank you. I, I love you so much. Do you-

• 1:04:37Speaker 05

  I love you too.

• 1:04:38Speaker 06

  Is there anything that the people listening can, can do to support Lily right now?

• 1:04:45Speaker 05

  Um, what can you do to support me? I don't know. I think just like hold each other up. That's all we gotta do. That's how we get through this. Keep getting into community and grabbing hold of people and make sure they're staying on their feet.

• 1:05:01Speaker 06

  That's beautiful. Thank you very much for doing it.

• 1:05:04Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:05:05Speaker 06

  Love ya. We did it.

• 1:05:06Speaker 05

  Love you too.

• 1:05:10Speaker 00

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• 1:05:40Speaker 04

  Ugh, I hate Mondays. King's Hawaiian Cinnamon Swirl Bite? Uh, Taylor Hansen? Sure, I'll try one. Mmm.

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• 1:06:02Speaker 04

  King's Hawaiian Cinnamon Bites. There's nothing like it.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

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