DISAPPEARED: Kinross Incident

On November 23rd, 1956, two pilots took off from Kinross Air Force Base in Michigan in pursuit of an unknown aircraft. Minutes later, they disappeared from the radar, leading to numerous searches over the Great Lakes area. No sign of the pilots or their aircraft have ever been found, sparking rumors of secret operations and supernatural phenomena.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  The real cost of a break-in isn't your valuables. It's the feeling that your home stopped being safe. SimpliSafe keeps danger away from your family with three layers of protection. One, smart AI cameras and live US-based agents help stop intruders before they break in. Two, we sound the alarm at points of entry. Three, our agents request emergency response. Plans starting around a dollar a day. Right now, get 60% off your new system with professional monitoring at simplisafe.com/truecrime. Outdoor deterrence plans start at $49.99 a month. Visit simplisafe.com/licenses for alarm license information.

• 0:32Rasha Pecoraro?

  There are a lot of things in this world that we don't fully understand, yet we place our blind trust in them anyway. Take flying, for example. As many of you know, I recently hung up my wings as a flight attendant, and it still boggles my mind to think we're just cruising through the air in this big hunk of metal, 36,000 feet above everyone we know and love. Obviously, I'm a podcaster and a former flight attendant, not a physicist, so it still feels a lot like magic to me. It also requires a lot of blind faith and trust in both the airplane itself and the people flying it.

• 1:17Rasha Pecoraro?

  Really, all any of us can hope for when we get on a plane, whether we're a passenger, a flight attendant, even a pilot, is that we make it back on land safely. Yes, Rush, I mean, that is what we all hope and pray for, but that's not always a guarantee. Like anything man-made, things can go wrong. Technology can malfunction, people can make mistakes, and other times, there's no explanation at all. Take the case of the Ken Ross incident.

• 1:52Yvette Gentile?

  In 1953, a fighter jet set out over Lake Superior to pursue an unidentified aircraft. But when the two planes got close, their radar blips seemed to merge. And then the fighter jet just disappeared forever. The wreckage and the crew were never found. And questions about what happened to that aircraft still remain unanswered today, over 70 years later. Resulting in theories of mechanical failures, a midair medical emergency, even an encounter with a UFO. I'm Yvette Gentile.

• 2:33Rasha Pecoraro?

  And I'm her sister, Rasha Pecoraro. Welcome back to So Supernatural.

• 3:11Yvette Gentile?

  Today's story starts in 1953 at the Ken Ross Air Force Base. The facility sat right between Lake Huron, Lake Michigan, and Lake Superior, in the state of Michigan, right near the Canadian border. And it had a lot of strategic importance in the early 1950s. When the Cold War was raging and tensions with the Soviet Union were high, American officials feared the Soviets would try to fly into American airspace from Canada. So they kept a close eye on the border. Military leaders scheduled a lot of patrol flights that took off and landed at Ken Ross.

• 3:53Yvette Gentile?

  The idea was that these pilots would spot any Soviet intruders and shoot them down before they could get too far into American airspace. Air Force officials also set up radar stations all along the border, so they'd detect any incoming aircraft right away. But radar technology was still developing and very glitchy at the time. It didn't always pick up the things it should. And sometimes, it said there were craft in the sky when there weren't. Still, the thinking was that it's better to be safe than sorry, which is something that I always say. And yes, the people at Ken Ross were always on alert.

• 4:37Yvette Gentile?

  If a radar system ever picked up an incoming Soviet flight, the pilots would have to get in their planes, take off, and be in the air really quickly. Sometimes, in a matter of five minutes or less. And that's exactly what happens on November 23rd, 1953.

• 4:59Rasha Pecoraro?

  At 6:17 PM, radar picks up an unidentified craft in the skies nearby. But when Air Force personnel go outside to look for it, they don't see anything. In fairness, visibility is pretty terrible. The sun is setting and there's a lot of fog and haze hanging over the Great Lakes. Plus, there are scattered snow showers in the area. But the radar says something just crossed the border from Canada into the United States. And it's passing over a very sensitive area, a major channel that allows ships to enter the Great Lakes and deliver supplies to the cities on the waterway. Now, this craft, or whatever it is,

• 5:44Rasha Pecoraro?

  seems to be headed east toward the base. No planes have filed flight plans along this course and the radar technicians can't reach this unknown vessel by radio. It might be a Royal Canadian Air Force airplane, but it's impossible to say if the craft is a friend or a foe. So right away, the order goes out for a Ken Ross pilot to get in their aircraft and figure out who or what this unknown vessel is. Within five minutes, a plane is in the air.

• 6:17Yvette Gentile?

  The callsign or nickname is Avenger Red, and the pilot is First Lieutenant Felix Moncler Jr. He's a 27-year-old, married father of two, who's originally from Louisiana. He's popular, charismatic, and he has a lot of flying experience. He's also getting close to the end of his deployment and seriously thinking about going to med school after his discharge. Felix has always dreamed of being a doctor. Alongside him in that plane is a second lieutenant named Robert Wilson. He's just 22 years old from Oklahoma, and he only recently transferred to Michigan to work on missions like this one. Once onboard Avenger Red,

• 7:02Yvette Gentile?

  Felix and Robert hope to fly near the unknown craft. If they get close enough, they should be able to see what kind of plane it is, even if they can't communicate with it. Meanwhile, Robert will be on the radio with ground control relaying everything they learn.

• 7:22Rasha Pecoraro?

  The problem is, the weather's still really bad. By the time Felix gets to a cruising altitude, it's impossible to see anything more than a mile away. He can barely navigate, let alone see the unidentified aircraft. In fact, Robert has to call mission control and ask them which direction to go, even though the radio is spotty in the bad weather. As dangerous and complicated as that sounds, the stakes are just too high for Felix to turn around and head back to the base. For all he knows, the unidentified craft could be the first plane in a massive Soviet fleet. He has no choice but to find some way

• 8:07Rasha Pecoraro?

  to get closer and figure out what it is. So that's exactly what he and ground control try to do. For the next eight minutes, from 6:47 to 6:55 PM, they give him very detailed directions. The radar technicians can still see which way the vessel's headed. So if it ever adjusts its course, they tell Felix which way to go so he's on track to intercept it. Now, they need to make these kind of adjustments frequently, because the unidentified craft is darting and dashing all over the place. It keeps changing direction, rising, dropping, and behaving very erratically.

• 8:50Rasha Pecoraro?

  It's almost like the thing is trying to dodge Avenger Red, which makes it seem all the more threatening. While this is going on, Mission Control watches as the two dots, Avenger Red and the unknown craft, fly over Lake Superior. They get closer to one another, and closer. Ground Control keeps asking Robert if he and Felix can see it yet, and the answer is always the same. There doesn't seem to be anyone else in the sky. So the radio operators on the ground tell them something like, "It's right there. Keep getting closer. You should spot it any second now." And by 6:55 PM,

• 9:35Rasha Pecoraro?

  those two dots are right on top of each other. So close, in fact, that it looks like there's only one dot on the screen.

• 9:45Yvette Gentile?

  Which, in doing research, I mean, that is pretty common. Radar displays in 1953 aren't very high-definition, so anytime that you have two planes flying close enough to each other, it looks like there're only one dot on the monitor. Except usually, a few seconds go by, and the dots eventually separate back into two as the planes get further apart. But that's not what's happening here. The radar operator keeps staring at the screen, and it still shows one dot. Almost like Avenger Red and the other craft are flying in perfect synchronicity, right next to each other.

• 10:28Rasha Pecoraro?

  Someone tries calling Robert over the radio to ask him what's going on. Because at this point, he's so close, he couldn't possibly miss this other craft. Except now, he's not picking up. Which could be a weather issue. The wind is getting stronger as the storm rolls in. It could be interfering with the radio. But, for the next few minutes, the radar still only shows the one dot. Then, the dot changes direction all of a sudden. Instead of heading east, back toward the base, it zips off the wrong way and pretty soon, it flies completely out of range. And that second dot doesn't reappear.

• 11:13Yvette Gentile?

  To be clear, this is a very abrupt change of course. It's hard to believe Felix is still flying alongside the unidentified ship, and matching its speed and direction. Because there's no way he'd anticipate such a drastic turn and acceleration. Instead, it seems more likely that one ship disappeared from the radar, and the other flew away. And since there's no reason for Avenger Red to race off out of range, the assumption is that the dot was the unidentified craft.

• 11:50Rasha Pecoraro?

  Which of course begs the question, if the intruder got away, then where is Avenger Red?

• 12:01Speaker 00

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• 12:10Speaker 00

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• 12:32Speaker 04

  Hi, I'm Ashley Flowers.

• 12:34Speaker 05

  And I'm Britt. And if you're on the edge of your seat listening to this show, Crime Junkie needs to be your next listen.

• 12:40Speaker 04

  Every Monday, I dive into a new true crime case that our reporting team has been on the ground looking into. From lesser-known disappearances to the most chilling cases hitting the headlines. And I'm gonna walk you through it the way I tell my best friend. Because, well, that's what I'm doing.

• 12:55Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's me. And I'm right there with you as we listen together, react to every wild detail, and of course, I ask all the questions.

• 13:03Speaker 04

  And I'm gonna have the answers, because we have case files. We're talking to detectives and family members. And we're gonna stay focused on the facts.

• 13:10Speaker 05

  So if you're not already listening to Crime Junkie, what are you waiting for? There are over 300 episodes available right now.

• 13:17Speaker 04

  And you can listen to new episodes of Crime Junkie every Monday, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 13:27Rasha Pecoraro?

  On November 23rd, 1953, radar operators at the Kinross Air Force Base in Michigan detected something strange: an unidentified craft in American airspace. At 6:22 PM, they sent pilot Felix Moncler Jr. and radio operator Robert Wilson into the sky in a mission called Avenger Red. Then roughly half an hour later, at 6:55 PM, the plane and its crew just disappeared. So at 7:15 PM, Air Force officials authorize another airplane to take off. This mission is called Avenger Black. This new craft has one objective:

• 14:10Rasha Pecoraro?

  find Avenger Red and rescue the crew if needed. It's been about 20 minutes since anyone has heard from Robert or Felix. By this time, there's nothing showing up on radar screens. Not Avenger Red, and not the mysterious aircraft they were originally looking for. Basically, no one has any idea what happened to Felix's plane. If it crashed, got lost, or if it's somehow still in the sky somewhere over Lake Superior.

• 14:41Yvette Gentile?

  Like we mentioned before, radar technology in the 1950s is still developing and fairly glitchy. So in theory, it's possible the plane could be right where it's supposed to be, but the radar just isn't picking it up for some reason. So Avenger Black flies out to the exact spot where Avenger Red was last detected before it vanished. When they get there, the fog and the clouds are still very thick, and visibility is getting worse by the second. The crew of Avenger Black can't see the water or land at all, which means they also can't check for any wreckage beneath them.

• 15:21Yvette Gentile?

  So Avenger Black just sort of circles in the area, waiting for some kind of clue. They're also mentally running through every explanation they can think of. Like maybe Felix lost control and Avenger Red crashed into the lake. Maybe he collided with the unidentified craft. Or he's just a few feet ahead and they'll spot him any second now. Regardless, their radio channels are open just in case Avenger Red tries calling them. And after another 20 minutes, at exactly 7:35 PM, they make contact.

• 16:01Rasha Pecoraro?

  They pick up a radio transmission of a man speaking. There's a ton of static and it's hard for anyone on the plane to make out the specific words or phrases. But the crew on Avenger Black all agree, it's definitely Felix's voice. About five seconds later, they lose the signal. But this is huge. It means Felix is still alive, still in the plane, and its radio is at least somewhat functional. Avenger Red hasn't crashed and both men must still be alive and safe somewhere.

• 16:39Yvette Gentile?

  The crew of Avenger Black tries calling Avenger Red again, but they can't reach anyone. They also notify ground control of what they've learned. And from the sound of things, they didn't pick up that transmission Felix sent. I mean, possibly they were too far away, or maybe they weren't listening to the right frequency. Maybe they did receive it, but it was too quick for them to realize that was happening. The point is, they send another plane to help Avenger Black. This one is called Avenger Purple. And once in the sky, both planes keep circling in the area, thinking they're about to find the missing vessel any second. Except the minutes tick by

• 17:22Yvette Gentile?

  and the teams don't hear another peep from Avenger Red. It's just so strange.

• 17:28Rasha Pecoraro?

  Yeah, so strange. Well, by 8:07 PM, which is about an hour and a half after they first took off, Felix, Robert, and their plane are still missing. And the search teams are feeling a lot less hopeful. They know that by this point, Avenger Red would have run out of fuel and crashed if it hadn't landed already. And if no one's sending an SOS signal or calling for help over the radio, that's a really bad sign.

• 17:58Yvette Gentile?

  That's right. Even worse, temperatures are dropping, and the wind is picking up, and a blizzard is moving in. And as much as the officials at Kinross want to keep looking for Felix and Robert, it's just getting too dangerous. Another jet was even sent from Kinross Air Force Base, but had to turn around due to the snow and the poor visibility and weak radio and radar signals. They can't risk losing more pilots during a search and rescue operation, especially when they're not sure where they should be looking. So Avenger Black and Avenger Purple land back at base, and everyone spends the evening on the ground. The rest of the night, radio operators keep scanning

• 18:42Yvette Gentile?

  every single frequency they can think of. The radar technicians continue watching for signs of something, anything in the sky. And still, there's no trace of Felix, Robert, or their plane.

• 18:58Rasha Pecoraro?

  The weather doesn't get better until the next morning. But as soon as the skies are all clear, the Air Force personnel resume their search. The good news is, by now, other groups, including the U.S. Coast Guard and the Royal Canadian Air Force, have heard about the missing plane. They're also sending in teams to help find it. Everyone starts by scouring that area of Lake Superior where Avenger Red was last detected. When they don't find anything, they expand to a wider radius. Then they widen it again. They spend all day crisscrossing Lake Superior without finding a shred of evidence about what happened to Felix and Robert.

• 19:42Rasha Pecoraro?

  And once the sun begins to set, another storm starts brewing. So yet again, the search teams have to stay grounded through the night. The next two days play out a lot like the first two. No one finds any trace of Avenger Red. Then comes day four, November 27. Everyone on the search team is feeling so discouraged by now. But then, at some point during the day, a report comes through. Somebody spotted something on the ground. It looks like a downed plane, but they're not totally sure if it's Avenger Red or possibly wreckage from something else.

• 20:23Yvette Gentile?

  It's on a Canadian mountain less than 100 miles from Lake Superior. It's not clear why Felix would fly so far away from home before crashing. But if he was super lost and headed the wrong direction, he could easily make it this far before he ran out of gas. So everyone's thinking, okay, great, we've found them. Three planes and a helicopter head right to that mountain and start combing the area. But they keep crisscrossing and searching, and they find nothing. They figure the pilot must have mistaken a shadow or an airplane-shaped rock for Avenger Red. So once again, the search ends up with no progress.

• 21:08Yvette Gentile?

  Everyone is feeling especially frustrated by the time they ground flights at dusk. And then they wake up on day five, November 28, and that's when the Air Force finally calls off the search and rescue operation, once and for all. They figure if they haven't heard from Felix and Robert by now, the two men probably aren't alive anymore. And plus, the teams have scoured almost every location they can think of, and they haven't found any sign of them. And nobody has any idea of where to look next. It's like the two men and Avenger Red simply vanished into thin air.

• 21:53Rasha Pecoraro?

  After deciding to call off the search, Air Force officials reach out to Felix's wife to share the bad news. Her name hasn't been made public, so we're just gonna call her Emily. But here's what they tell her. Felix was flying over Lake Superior to intercept an unknown craft. Then he dipped too close to the water and crashed. Which is a pretty odd story, given that the authorities still don't know where or how he went down, or if his plane actually did crash. It's unclear how they came up with this story to tell Emily. But she has no reason to doubt them, so she accepts the account at face value.

• 22:39Yvette Gentile?

  That is until sometime later, when she's having another conversation with a different Air Force official. Emily brings up her husband's disappearance, and the official says something like, "Wait a second. Felix didn't crash from flying too low. It was the opposite. He flew too high and then his plane exploded in the air." Now again, it's unclear why this officer thinks this. I mean Felix's plane still hasn't been found, so it's not like he figured this out after examining physical evidence. In fact, there is no reason for the Air Force

• 23:20Yvette Gentile?

  to be changing their official stance on Felix's cause of death at all, or for them to assume that the plane went too high and exploded. All Emily can think is this whole situation is super weird. She doesn't know why the story is changing, and she doesn't know what evidence the officials have to make these conclusions. But I do know she's highly suspicious.

• 23:49Yvette Gentile?

  I'm not sure what Emily does after this second conversation, but if this was my husband, you know damn certain that I'd be investigating. And I'm sure that's what she does. At one point, she gives an anonymous statement to the public. And she says she doesn't think the Air Force is being totally honest with her. Instead, she believes Felix's real cause of death, and we have all heard this before, is part of a cover-up much larger than anyone's admitting.

• 24:30Speaker 00

  The real cost of a break-in isn't your valuables. It's the feeling that your home stopped being safe. SimpliSafe keeps danger away from your family with three layers of protection. One, smart AI cameras and live US-based agents help stop intruders before they break in. Two, we sound the alarm at points of entry. Three, our agents request emergency response. Play and starting around $1 a day. Right now, get 60% off your new system with professional monitoring at simplisafe.com/truecrime. Outdoor deterrence plans start at $49.99 a month. Visit simplisafe.com/licenses for alarm license information.

• 25:01Yvette Gentile?

  Hi, I'm Ashley Flowers.

• 25:02Speaker 05

  And I'm Britt. And if you're on the edge of your seat listening to this show, Crime Junkie needs to be your next listen.

• 25:08Yvette Gentile?

  Every Monday, I dive into a new true crime case that our reporting team has been on the ground looking into. From lesser-known disappearances to the most chilling cases hitting the headlines. And I'm gonna walk you through it the way I tell my best friend, because, well, that's what I'm doing.

• 25:24Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's me. And I'm right there with you as we listen together, react to every wild detail, and of course, I ask all the questions.

• 25:32Yvette Gentile?

  And I'm gonna have the answers, because we have case files. We're talking to detectives and family members, and we're gonna stay focused on the facts.

• 25:39Speaker 05

  So if you're not already listening to Crime Junkie, what are you waiting for? There are over 300 episodes available right now.

• 25:45Yvette Gentile?

  And you can listen to new episodes of Crime Junkie every Monday, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 25:56Yvette Gentile?

  On November 23rd, 1953, an Air Force mission named Avenger Red disappeared with two crew members onboard. But after military officials notified the pilot's wife of his disappearance, they couldn't keep their story straight. They changed details about how First Lieutenant Felix Monclerall Jr. and his Second Lieutenant Robert Wilson died. And that's not the only time they struggled to discuss the disappearance. Because Air Force leaders also contradicted themselves in their statements to the press.

• 26:33Rasha Pecoraro?

  After the search for Avenger Red wrapped up in November of 1953, an officer spoke to reporters at the Chicago Tribune about what would become known as the Kinross Incident. The article they wrote shared the officer's statement, which was pretty consistent with the narrative we've covered already. He said Felix and Robert took off to intercept and identify an unknown aircraft. Then, they and the object both disappeared. Except, almost as soon as the story hits the papers, a spokesperson with the Air Force comes forward to say, "Actually, all of the information we just released is totally wrong. Here's the real

• 27:15Rasha Pecoraro?

  story." They say the other craft on the radar didn't actually get away. And not only did someone with the Air Force manage to make contact with it, but they also figured out who it was. And good news, it wasn't a Soviet invader. It was a plane with the Royal Canadian Air Force, which had gotten off course during a routine flight and crossed into American airspace. Unfortunately, this realization came too late to save Robert or Felix, who, they say, suffered from horrible vertigo. Which is why the Air Force comes up with a new theory.

• 27:58Rasha Pecoraro?

  They believe that Felix learned the airplane was Canadian and was headed back to the base to land. But a horrible wave of dizziness came over him mid-flight. He couldn't tell up from down and accidentally careened straight into the lake.

• 28:15Rasha Pecoraro?

  The wreckage and the bodies were never found because they sink deep under the water of Lake Superior, which at its deepest point can reach 1,300 feet. Case closed. Well, according to the Air Force.

• 28:32Yvette Gentile?

  So as someone who has experienced vertigo, this makes no sense whatsoever. Because we know pilots would never be cleared to fly if they had experienced vertigo. First of all, let's talk about the claim that the aircraft was a Royal Canadian Air Force plane. It's still unclear how the American Air Force came to that conclusion. There's no official record that Felix or the Ken Ross radio operators managed to make contact with the unknown craft. And the Canadian government denied this story. They said they didn't have any flights scheduled that night. And they could tell there was a blizzard rolling in and they weren't going to risk

• 29:17Yvette Gentile?

  any of their pilots in the storm. Plus, Felix probably didn't have vertigo. And we know this because he had to get a regular medical evaluation to prove he was healthy enough to fly a plane. None of his doctors ever wrote anything about vertigo in his records. And like I said earlier, if they'd had any inkling that he suffered from this condition, or one like it, Felix would not have been allowed to fly. The truth is, Felix had been an Air Force pilot for over three years by this point. He had more than 100 hours of flight experience

• 30:01Yvette Gentile?

  in the exact model of plane he was flying on November 23rd, and almost 700 more hours in other models. In all of that time, there's no record of him ever experiencing vertigo or having any other kind of medical issue during the flight. All to say, this official story, once again, makes no sense. It doesn't fit the facts. And it's not clear where the Air Force came up with these goofy ideas.

• 30:35Rasha Pecoraro?

  Well, let's take a break from speculation and focus on what we do know. What I'm about to share includes data that was gathered by a group of Air Force investigators who privately looked into the Kinross incident. And guess who they were affiliated with? Project Blue Book. Yes, the Project Blue Book. The one that ran from 1947 to 1969, and we've covered multiple times on So Supernatural. Project Blue Book's main responsibility was responding to reports of unidentified flying objects. Apparently, they wanted to determine if the craft those pilots went after came from

• 31:19Rasha Pecoraro?

  outer space, or if the craft posed a threat to national security.

• 31:25Yvette Gentile?

  And over the course of 22 years, Project Blue Book investigated nearly 13,000 UFO sightings. While some of those incidents could be explained away as, I don't know, tricks of light or weather balloons, 701 of them are still unsolved to this day, and I'm sure it's more than 701. I betcha.

• 31:49Rasha Pecoraro?

  Agreed. What this suggests to me, though, is that the Air Force, or at least Project Blue Book, didn't think Felix and Robert disappeared in an ordinary crash. They thought something otherworldly may have happened to them. In fact, today, many UFO buffs believe the unidentified dot on the Kinross radar wasn't a Royal Canadian Air Force plane, but instead, a vessel from outer space. Like we said before, this unidentified flying object was moving in a very erratic way. It was constantly changing directions and darting around all over the place.

• 32:32Rasha Pecoraro?

  The radar operators at Kinross likely thought it was evading detection, but after all of the UFO stories we've covered on this show, all I can think of is, what plane can fly like that? I mean, what kind of plane does that, right? UFOs often seem to follow these bizarre, inexplicable courses, making impossible moves at exceptional speeds we can't explain away with modern technology. Was that what happened with the Kinross incident? Add in the fact that no one could see it with their naked eye, including Felix and Robert, and that it managed to get away during a severe storm.

• 33:15Rasha Pecoraro?

  Sounds like some kind of advanced technology to me.

• 33:20Yvette Gentile?

  And you know, I have to agree with you on that. And maybe when Felix and Robert tried to intercept it, one of two things happened. The first possibility is that they crashed into the alien vessel or into some kind of protective force field around it. While the UFO was only damaged, Avenger Red was crushed in the collision. The plane plummeted into the lake and was lost under the wake for good. Possibility two says the extraterrestrial craft, which could have been massive, actually captured Avenger Red somehow. Maybe a midair abduction only to never be seen again.

• 34:04Yvette Gentile?

  I mean, that was my first thought, Rasha, when we talked about this case.

• 34:09Rasha Pecoraro?

  Right.

• 34:09Yvette Gentile?

  That is my first impression, right?

• 34:11Rasha Pecoraro?

  Yeah, mine too.

• 34:12Yvette Gentile?

  Except the Blue Book investigators don't believe either of those explanations. They look into the case and decide they agree with the official story. Felix lost control of his plane after about a vertical and crashed into the lake. No alien ships or supernatural elements involved. Now, we've already covered some of the problems with that theory. First, it's hard to say what happened because nobody was around to witness the crash or abduction. However, some aviation experts think there's a more grounded explanation for the disappearance. Avenger Red, they say, suffered a mechanical failure.

• 35:01Yvette Gentile?

  See, that particular model of airplane called a Scorpion F-89 wasn't very well constructed. And throughout the 1950s, Scorpions kept having the same issue. Sometimes their engines just shut off mid-flight for no apparent reason. And from February to September of 1952, roughly a year to a year and a half before the Ken Ross Incident, six separate Scorpion F-89s disintegrated in the air under the pressures of flight maneuvers. The Air Force eventually discontinued that model the year after Avenger Red's disappearance,

• 35:44Yvette Gentile?

  in 1954, because the mechanical issues were too severe to fix. But sadly, it was too late for Felix and Robert. A lot of people think Felix's plane simply shut down on its way to intercept the craft over Lake Superior. The engine may have stalled and the plane might have crashed around the time that the two dots seem to merge on the radar screen. Or maybe, the plane broke apart while maneuvering.

• 36:18Yvette Gentile?

  Except, we can't prove these theories, since the missing plane has never been found. Even to this day, we can't look at the wreckage for signs of engine failure. There's nothing there. But, others say that might not be the case. In 2006, more than 50 years after the Ken Ross Incident, a man named Adam Jimenez starts posting in online forums, mostly dedicated to alien investigations. Around the same time, he also sends countless emails to all kinds of UFO researchers.

• 36:57Rasha Pecoraro?

  Adam says he lives near the Kinross Air Force Base, and he's also a scuba diver who works with a group called the Great Lakes Dive Company. Recently, someone hired them to search the bottom of Lake Superior for an old historic shipwreck. But during their survey, they found something even better: the wreckage of Avenger Red. Adam even posts the sonar images his team collected during the dive. Based on these pictures, it looks to be almost completely intact. It's missing one wing, but the rest is all there. Adam says he also found something else under the lake.

• 37:39Rasha Pecoraro?

  He doesn't have pictures of it, so it's hard to say how big it is or what it exactly looks like. But Adam claims this other object was half-buried. And it's unclear how he knows this, but Adam claims it's part of a flying saucer. Meaning, the Avenger Red may have collided with an alien ship after all. If that's true, a dive team should be able to recover actual, authentic, alien materials from the bottom of Lake Superior. Provided they're able to get to the specific spot where Adam found them.

• 38:20Yvette Gentile?

  Now, if that's true, it's a game changer. But the problem is, it's hard for anyone to actually verify what Adam said. He never says exactly where the wreckage is, just that it's somewhere in Lake Superior, and at a point where the water's about 500 feet deep, which doesn't really narrow it down. And without something more specific, nobody can check for themselves to see if the plane really is where he says it is, or if there actually is part of a flying saucer nearby. That's one of the many reasons why a lot of UFO researchers feel skeptical about Adam's allegations.

• 39:06Yvette Gentile?

  For example, there's a man who frequents these websites. His name is Brendan Baylott. Like Adam, he lives in the area and he's very plugged into the local scuba diving community, which is pretty small and tight-knit. So Brendan, he goes and asks around if anyone knows Adam, or if they're familiar with the Great Lakes Diving Company. But nobody has ever heard of this guy or his employer. There's also no paperwork trail showing someone forming a company with that name. Brendan also knows what underwater sonar images look like, and he doesn't think this picture looks like a sonar at all.

• 39:50Yvette Gentile?

  He thinks it looks more like Adam reposted a grainy photo of a different airplane wreck from the internet. In other words, Brendan thinks Adam is outright lying about everything: his name, his scuba experience, and his discovery in the Great Lakes. And when he goes online to confront Adam about what he's found, Adam doesn't say a peep to defend himself. Instead, he stops posting in forums. He doesn't respond to any email inquiries. It's like he's vanished without a trace. Though some people take this as evidence that Adam maybe knew too much,

• 40:33Yvette Gentile?

  like he had to go on the run after sharing top-secret evidence that aliens exist, but Brendan thinks the explanation is a lot more grounded. The whole story about Adam and his scuba diving excursion was just made up. Whoever he is, he's just lying to get attention. And when he got caught, he left the conversation. So my question is, what did Adam stand to gain from this? Did he just want his name in the spotlight? Or did someone silence him?

• 41:09Rasha Pecoraro?

  That is a very good question. But given all of the holes in Adam's story, I think it's safe to dismiss his claims. But that doesn't change the fact that the whole Kinross incident is very mysterious. And there are still a lot of unanswered questions about exactly what happened. There has to be a reason why the Air Force claimed the other ship was a Canadian airplane when the Canadian government totally denies it. And why they suggest Felix Moncler Jr. suffered from vertigo when there was no record of it. And why they told his widow contradictory stories about how his plane crashed.

• 41:53Rasha Pecoraro?

  And how come they included Project Blue Book in this investigation? Not to mention, how did Felix manage to broadcast something over the radio 40 minutes after his plane lost radar contact? We're not the only ones who think this is all extremely strange. Apparently, after the Blue Book inquiry wrapped up, another group tried to look into the Kinross incident. It's called the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena, or NICAP. They're a private group that researches UFO sightings. But when NICAP requested the official documents from the Air Force, guess what, y'all?

• 42:38Rasha Pecoraro?

  They were denied. According to the military officials, there were no records of the incident. Because they say, "Nothing happened that night." Obviously, this isn't even remotely true. Because we have all seen the news coverage on the missing airman, featuring statements from military officials. But again, this denial smells like a huge cover-up.

• 43:07Yvette Gentile?

  Maybe aliens were involved somehow and American officials don't want us to know about it? Or maybe there's some other explanation that's too strange, too mysterious, or even too deceptive for us to even guess at. But I just have to say, there are so many uncertainties here, and if we go back and just talk about the Scorpion F-89s, maybe that jet was not supposed to be in the air because of all the mechanical issues.

• 43:44Rasha Pecoraro?

  Ultimately, it's impossible to say. The Kinross Incident has no living eyewitnesses, no physical evidence, and no hard answers, which must be gut-wrenching for Robert and Felix's families. They don't know what truly happened to their loved ones, and they are still waiting for answers. But in the meantime, we can help by keeping their story alive, by continuing to talk about this mystery and hope that one day, an answer finally finds its way to the surface.

• 44:27Yvette Gentile?

  This is So Supernatural, an AudioChuck original, produced by Crime House. You can connect with us on Instagram at So Supernatural Pod and visit our website at sosupernaturalpodcast.com. Join Rash and me next Friday for an all-new episode. I think Chuck would approve.

• 44:59Speaker 06

  When the nights grow longer, the shadows start to stir, and that can only mean one thing: Full Body Chills is back. This season, step inside original tales where every doorway leads somewhere darker, every stranger carries a secret, and nothing is ever quite what it seems. Each story takes you somewhere new, but be careful: you never know what might follow you home. So gather round, listen close, and stream Full Body Chills wherever you get your podcasts.