The Crate Escape / Fever

From puppy love to stolen moments to the thrill of the chase... their relationship made headlines. A huge thank you to Toby Dorr https://tobydorr.com/ for sharing her story with Snap! Toby is an author, speaker and criminal justice reform advocate. She’s also the founder of the Fierce Grace Movement https://fiercegracemovement.org, a nonprofit organization dedicated to uplifting women impacted by incarceration through storytelling and mentorship. There's so much that we were not able to share about Toby’s experience... to find out more, check out Toby’s memoir “Living With Conviction” https://www.amazon.com/Living-Conviction-True-Crime-Memoir/dp/1966346425/ref=sr_1_1?[%E2%80%A6]=toby+dorr&qid=1772219799&sprefix=toby+dor%2Caps%2C111&sr=8-1 Produced by Bo Walsh, edited by Anna Sussman, original score by Nicholas Marks. Season 17 - Episode 8 Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices https://dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:08Glynn Washington?

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• 1:30Glynn Washington?

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• 2:12Glynn Washington?

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• 2:41Glynn Washington?

  I feel like there's a will they, won't they tension that's built into our cultural DNA. Jim and Pam, Ridley and Nwain, Carrie and Big. The best, of course, is Mulder and Scully. So many. They all have their reasons, you know, for not just getting on with it. But I find myself screaming at the TV sometimes. We know what has to happen, just do it. We know the writers set this up on page two. Hey, hey, hey, hey. Hundred bucks says a fancy job on the other side of the country is gonna fall through. Stop playing with my emotions. But thankfully, thankfully, real life doesn't work like that, right?

• 3:25Glynn Washington?

  And real life matters at the heart. We see the obstacle, we accept it. Some barriers are simply imperturbable. We just move on. Problem solved, right? Right?

• 3:44Glynn Washington?

  Well, today, Snap Judgment's Fever Series explores the lengths some people will go to for their heart's desire. Snap proudly presents The Crate Escape. My name is in Washington and I don't care. Rachel and Ross don't even make the top 30. When you're listening to Snap Judgment.

• 4:24Glynn Washington?

  Now, our story begins in Kansas City with a woman named Toby Dorr. Toby, she's a perfectionist, a type who follows the rules, who never cuts corners. She married her high school sweetheart and worked 60-hour weeks, all while getting a degree and raising two children. By 2004, her marriage is crumbling. After losing her job and surviving thyroid cancer, she wants to spend whatever time she has left making a difference. So Toby starts a prison dog rescue program at the nearby Lansing Correctional Facility, helping incarcerated men train dogs and prepare them for adoption.

• 5:08Glynn Washington?

  Snap judgment.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  One day, about seven or eight weeks into the dog program, I came into the front gate where I usually come in, and I was walking across the yard and I noticed this man walking towards me across the prison yard. And it was becoming obvious to me that I was his destination, that he wasn't just going to walk past me, he was coming at me, which was a little bit different than normal. And so when he got in front of me, he stopped.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  And I looked up at him, and he was quite a bit taller than me. And the way he was standing, the sun was right behind his head, and he had this brilliant red hair, and it just glowed in the sun and it almost looked like he had a halo and it was just blinding. And it just kind of struck me. And he stuck his hand out to shake my hand, and he said, "Hi, I'm John Maynard, and I want to be your next dog handler, because I'm probably the best dog handler in this prison."

• 6:30Speaker 01

  And I, it just kinda took me aback because no one was ever that bold when they talked to me. You know, people would come up and they'd be really soft and wishy and begging to be a dog handler, but nobody came out and said, "I'm the best dog handler. You need me in your program." And so, I wrote his name down, and I didn't think much more of it. And so, within a week or two, I got another call from the warden and said, "We need more dogs. I've got some new dog handlers." John Maynard was one of the dog handlers in this group. Then I would go into the prison, to these, you know, dog training classes, and John's dogs were perfect. They were so

• 7:13Speaker 01

  well behaved. They, they were the best dogs in the prison. So, he and I would kind of have discussions about different dogs and different dog training methods, just because he was interested. And he was really smart. And he loved to debate with me about things. And that just, you know, I, I was invigorated by that. And so, that set him apart a little bit from the other dog handlers.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  Did he come off as a kid when you first met him?

• 7:40Speaker 01

  No. No, he came off as someone that was very wise and very mature. I was 48, and John was 21 years younger than me. John felt so much older. I mean, he had lived things that most men don't live through. And so, he had experienced things at a much different level than most 28-year-old men had ever experienced.

• 8:12Speaker 01

  John Maynard was kind of one of the men inside the prison that nobody wanted to mess with. Even the officers, you know, if something was going wrong in the prison, if the officers would go talk to John and, and get John to realize something was wrong, then whatever it was would just quiet down, because John just kinda had that influence. So, they thought it would be perfect to just have him escort me around. When I was walking with John, I wasn't afraid. So, I just made sure we were always together.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  The prison dog program, I was in love with it and I was consumed by it. And I felt like at that time in my life, it was the best thing I'd ever done. I was working 15, 17, 18 hours a day. And I had 150 dogs under my care that I was responsible for feeding and training. And I was always going, going, going. I was hardly ever home.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  And I think my husband was just surprised that everybody was so excited about this dog program. He never really bought into it. He really didn't say very much about it. So after I spent all day in the prison, then I'd come home at night and I realized how insignificant I was in my husband's eyes. I mean, really, my only value to him, in my opinion, was the salary I could bring in. And now I wasn't even bringing in a salary because I was volunteering all my time at this prison dog program. And I just felt so unappreciated and so unimportant in every single way that I was just desperate for someone to notice me.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  I ended up spending more and more time inside the prison because I just felt good when I was there. And it was like pouring water on a dying plant, you know? You just couldn't get enough.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  In July of 2005, my dad was diagnosed with stage 4 bladder cancer. And it was just devastating. We rushed him to the hospital in the middle of the night. And when I got the call to go to the hospital, I jumped up, I was in bed asleep. And my husband said, "Well, I'm not going to go with you because there's no sense in both of us not getting a good night's sleep." And so I went to the hospital by myself and it was really touch and go. And so I was at the hospital, our whole family was at the hospital, from 9 o'clock in the evening until 5:30 in the morning, when they finally finished the surgery and put him back in his room and we could see him.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  But the next day, of course, I left the hospital at 5:30 or 6:00, which was when I was supposed to be picking dogs up at the prison to take him to vet clinic. So I just went ahead with my day and went straight to the prison. And I saw John, you know, he looked at me and he said, Toby, what is going on in your life? He said, you look devastated. And I nearly broke down because nobody else had even asked me how I was doing. And, you know, I told him about my dad being in the hospital and he said, well, thank God you had your husband with you. That'd be terrible thing to have to drive back home after that and being up all night. And I said,

• 11:41Speaker 01

  oh, my husband wasn't with me. You know, he stayed home because there's no sense in both of us missing a night's sleep. And he looked at me and he said, what? That is the stupidest thing I ever heard of. And then he looked at me and he said, why are you married to him? And I opened my mouth to answer, and I had no answer. And I couldn't think of what to say. And so I left the prison and I didn't go back for several days because I was just mulling this answer over and over in my head about, why am I still married? What is my marriage about? I should have an answer for that.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  I suppose my marriage felt more like a duty, more like a thing I had to do. He wasn't a bad husband to me and I wasn't a bad wife. It's just that we never were a team. We never really,

• 12:46Speaker 01

  you know, had this marriage that existed outside of our children and our home. I was just one of those middle-aged moms whose kids had left home and she didn't know what to do with herself then. And, and we just had grown so far apart, I didn't even know who was living in my house with me.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  And so, of course, then the next time I went into the prison, a couple of days later, John was like, "Did you get an answer to that question?" And I was like, "No, I can't think of an answer to that question." And he said, "Well, then I think that's your answer." And I think that kind of opened a door in his mind. And being together for several hours every day while I was walking around inside the prison, we started talking more and more and things started to change between us. I didn't know how much I craved conversation that was meaningful. And John was a source of those kinds of conversations.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  I mean, we would talk about all kinds of things that I never even thought I would be talking to anybody about, you know, like playing the bass guitar and how one particular chord gave you this sound that made you feel this particular way. Or we might talk about how riding a horse just felt like you were so connected with the horse, or it could be all kinds of different things. And it began to be that I was just so looking forward to going into the prison to have a conversation with John. And then one day, when he walked me out to the gate, he was getting ready to turn and walk back into the prison, and he said, "You know what?"

• 14:38Speaker 01

  He said, "I think I've fallen in love with you." And then he just turned and walked away. And I left and I was like, "What?" And I thought about that for a day or two, and then I thought, "I might think I'm in love with him too."

• 14:59Speaker 01

  I thought, "Well, there's no risk here," you know, "because I'll just leave and go home, and he's here in prison, so, you know, there's nothing that can happen." And then, one day, he said to me, "If I wasn't in prison, would you be with me?" And I said, "Maybe, you know, maybe I would, I don't know, but perhaps." And that was all the opening he needed to start thinking about escaping. And then, you know, he came up with the idea that he needed a cellphone inside prison so he could call me. And then he said, "I could get a cellphone in here, but it'll cost me $500." He said, "Do you think you could give me $500?"

• 15:42Speaker 01

  I said, "Heck, no, I'm not giving you $500 for a stupid cellphone, that's ridiculous." And then he kept talking about it, "Well, I really need a phone, I really want to talk to you, I just want to talk to you." And finally, I said, "Okay, I'll just bring, I'll get one, but I'm not going to give you $500 to buy one, I'm just going to bring it in, that's ridiculous." And so, I brought in a dog for him, and it was a small little dog, and I put it in the dog crate, and I put the phone in the dog crate, and I just walked through security and showed him the dog in the crate, and I walked into the prison, and I handed him the dog crate and said, "Here's your dog." And then I left, and that was it, he had a phone.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  It was so scary, I couldn't believe I did it, but at the same time, it was exhilarating because I'd done it, I'd broken a rule.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  And then, all bets were off, because we would be on the phone to each other all the time, and then we could say all the things that we weren't allowed to say, because there was an opportunity inside of a prison, and it, it just became like...

• 16:53Speaker 01

  I can't even describe it. The connection, the desire, the drive to be together was just so overwhelming that it clouded every moment of every day.

• 17:10Speaker 01

  Those calls became everything. I mean, there were so many facets to them. Like, I got an earbud thing, so I could talk to him while I was on the phone without being a parent I was on the phone. And like, I would go out to a restaurant, and I would go by myself, and I would sit down and I would say, "Okay, John, this is the menu." And I'd reading the menu, and he'd say, "Oh, order the fajitas. I love fajitas." You know, and I'd order the fajitas, and then they'd come, and I'd describe to him what they smelled like, and then I'd eat them and tell him what it tasted like. So it was like bringing him out into the world. He'd say, "Tell me what's going on around you." And I'd say, "Well, you know, there's a whole family over this table over here, and they

• 17:53Speaker 01

  have the cutest little girl, and I think it might be her birthday." And he said, "I can picture that, I can picture that. Now tell me who's at the next table." You know, and so I was just kind of building this world for him in his head. You know, and then, of course, there were nights when my husband was working at the fire station, and we'd be on the phone all night, and I'll just let you figure out where those calls went, but it just made our connection so much deeper and so much stronger.

• 18:23Speaker 01

  I had no fear at all. I don't know why. I should have been terrified, but I wasn't. Because I thought this could never go anywhere. He was inside prison, I was outside prison. When I got tired of this, I just would be done with it. You know, I had all the power. I could walk away, and there was nothing he could do about it.

• 18:46Speaker 01

  So I always felt like I was in control, when really I was totally out of control.

• 19:11Glynn Washington?

  When Snap returns, love can make you do wrong, make you do right. Has Toby crossed a line she can't come back from? Stay tuned. If you're an independent artist, there's a new way to start selling merch without dealing with inventory or running an online store. DistroKid Direct automatically turns your existing album artwork into products like t-shirts, hoodies, posters, totes, mugs. You choose what to sell. You set your prices. Connect PayPal and DistroKid handles the printing, the shipping, the customer support. There are no commissions on your sales, so you keep 100% of your merch earnings.

• 19:56Glynn Washington?

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• 21:33Glynn Washington?

  Welcome back to Snap Judgment, the crate escape episode. Now, before we left, Toby, a married mother who runs a prison dog rescue program, she's beginning to fall deeply for John, an incarcerated man from her dog training classes. And they both know it can't go anywhere. But, well, like you know, Toby decided to sneak a cellphone into him just to keep the conversation going. Snap Judgment.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  One night, we were on the phone, and John said to me, "You know, I'm gonna bust out of here. We can be together." I said, "Yo, you can't do that. People don't escape from prison." And he said, "Oh, yeah. If you want it bad enough, it can happen." When he started talking about an escape, it was like a game for me, like, "Oh, yeah." And he'd say, "We could do it this way." And I'd say, "Oh, no, that way is really stupid. You can't do it that way." And then he'd say, "Well, how about this way?" I'd say, "Well, that was dumber than the first way." And then, one day, he said, "You know, I could hide in a dog crate and sneak into your van during adoption." And I said, "Well, now, that one would probably work." And I just meant, "It would probably work."

• 22:55Speaker 01

  I didn't mean, "Let's do it." But he ran off and started working on the idea and figuring out how to make it happen. I never really, honestly, thought it was really gonna happen.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  One of the unit team leaders, when I happened to just be walking through the prison with John, he stopped me and he said, "Toby..." You have that dog crate over in M unit, and I'd like you to get it out of here because we're not using it. And John was standing there and he said, "You know, we got some other stuff that needs to get out of here too. Some chain dog leashes and chain collars that you don't want here either." And he said, "How about if I just put all that stuff in a box and put it inside the dog crate? And then when Toby comes in for a dog adoption, I'll just take the crate down to the gate and put it in the van for her." Because it's a big dog crate. It would be really hard for her to carry it to get it out of here. And the unit team leader said, "Well, that sounds like a great idea to me."

• 23:55Speaker 01

  He said, "I'll let the gate know to expect a big dog crate with a box of stuff in it." And so it just kind of played into his hand perfectly.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  John, you know, he walked right up to me. He said, "You know what I'm in prison for?" And I said, "No, I don't." And he said, "I'm in prison for first degree murder." And I said, "Oh."

• 24:17Speaker 01

  And he said, "But I didn't kill anybody." And I said, "Well, that's weird." And so that's when I started learning about felony murder. And John Maynard was in prison for felony murder. He and a buddy stole a car. And it just so happened that there was a man sleeping in the car. And the buddy John was with had a gun and shot the guy who was in the car. So John was convicted of first degree murder, along with his buddy who actually pulled the trigger.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  He didn't deserve a life sentence. He stole a car. He should have gotten a sentence for stealing a car. And I just felt like that was so unfair. And so I was going to right a wrong, you know, which was ridiculous, but that is what I was thinking. And so the unjustness of it just really weighed on me. And it weighed on him too. But he had accepted it, I think, until I came along. And then he saw a way out, I think. And he couldn't, he couldn't be satisfied with that sentence any longer.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  We spent a lot of time in planning the escape, but we never spent any time planning what we were gonna do afterwards. He said he wanted to open a tattoo shop on the beach, and that was how we were gonna survive. And I just kinda pictured us on a beach somewhere with him, you know, doing tattoos and me just playing with the dogs or something. He felt like a way to just blow up my whole life and then I'd have no choice but to rebuild something else. I truly was not in a normal frame of mind at the time.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  Did you ever imagine or have a picture of what it would look like if this went wrong and what the consequences could potentially be?

• 26:16Speaker 01

  You would think that I had a clear picture of what would happen if it went wrong. But I think I was intelligent enough to know that it would not be good. And so I blocked any thought of that from my head because I knew I would talk myself out of moving forward. So I just tried to pretend like, you know, it wasn't gonna happen or if it did happen, everybody would just think it's a lark. It's just ridiculous. It was not logical. My thinking was definitely not logical. I knew, deep down, I knew that there would be consequences and I knew it would not be pretty.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  But I blocked that out of my conscious thought in the time leading up to the escape.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  John felt like if we just kept our heads down, nobody would ever notice us, you know? Because nothing we would do to stand out because we would use a different name and how would they know it was us? And I believed, John, that, you know, they would never find us.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  John did say to me, "Oh, you know, even if we get caught, they don't throw people like you in prison. You know, you're like Mother Teresa. They'll just give you community service or something." So, I believed him.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  The night before, I mean, I was sitting up late, and my husband said, "Well, I'm gonna go to bed. I gotta get up and go to work tomorrow." And I said, "Okay." And he started up the stairs and he said, "Goodnight." And I looked up at him and I said, "Goodbye." And then I thought, "Oh, my God, I said goodbye.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  Is he gonna catch it?" And he didn't even say anything. He just went on up the stairs and went to bed.

• 28:13Speaker 01

  Even the morning of, I didn't think it was gonna come to fruition.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  When I got there that morning to pick up the dogs, the farm wagon and the dog crate wasn't there. And I waited a little bit. I had to make small talk with the officers there at the gate. And I was a nervous wreck at that moment. It just suddenly came to me that here I was trying to kind of camouflage this crime that I was in the middle of. And my voice shook, and I started shaking physically. And I thought, "These officers are gonna notice that this isn't the calm, laughing Toby that normally stands at this gate." But they didn't pick up on it.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  And then I got really tired of waiting. And I thought, "You know what? This whole thing was a dumb idea, anyway. I'm just gonna go ahead and leave." And I felt relief at that decision. And then the wagon came around the corner. And then I felt excitement at the fact that this was gonna happen. So, it was just such a tangled mix of emotions.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  When they came around the corner with that farm wagon and the crate on it, the tires on the farm wagon were almost flat because of the weight. And I thought, anybody who looks at that wagon is going to know they're not some dog leashes and collars in that box, but nobody picked up on it.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  John's roommate and a couple other guys in the cell wheeled this farm wagon down, and then they lifted that dog crate into the van. And I loaded dogs in there that were going to go to adoption that day, and I got in and we drove off.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  I kind of let myself believe, well, maybe he wasn't in the box. And when they put the box in the van, and I closed the doors, and I got in to drive out, and I said, "John, are you in there?" And there was no answer. And I said, "John," and there was no answer. And then I pulled out on the prison road, and I thought, "Oh, thank God, you know, this didn't work after all. I'm just going to go to Petsmart and do a dog adoption like normal." And I was driving down the road, and once the wheels got off the dirt prison road and onto the asphalt, and we turned a corner, then I heard this laugh in the backseat, and it just startled me so much that I pulled over to the side of the road, you know, and put it in park because it was like this freaky laugh.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  And then I turned around and I saw an arm poke out of the box, and I reached back and opened the latch of the crate so that, you know, he could finish getting out. And he said, "Drive, Toby, drive." And so I drove.

• 31:15Speaker 01

  I pulled through all three of the prison gates, and I was out on the road, and then this panic just set in, and I thought, "What have I done? I mean, I can't undo this. It's not like I can drive back in and go, 'Oops, you know, I got something that you want.'" And I realized I'd set this string of things in motion that I couldn't take back. And so, the only thing I could do was to move forward.

• 32:09Glynn Washington?

  After this short break, we're strapped into the front seat of the getaway car with the two lovers on the run. Stay tuned.

• 32:27Glynn Washington?

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• 33:11Glynn Washington?

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• 33:56Glynn Washington?

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• 34:40Glynn Washington?

  Welcome back to Snap Judgment. My name is from Washington. And right before the break, Toby pulled off sneaking her boyfriend, John, into her work van as he hid inside a dog crate. Against all odds, they've made it past the prison walls, but now what? Snap Judgment.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  Our only plan was that we had reserved a cabin for a month in the mountains of Tennessee on a lake. And that was the extent of our plan. There was so much adrenaline from the escape and then driving all night and not having any sleep.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  John didn't want to travel on the interstates because he felt like, you know, there's always police on the interstates looking for stuff. And for the first time, you know, I kind of saw him as immature, you know, which he was younger than me by quite a lot. And but inside the prison, I mean, he acted like he was 35 or 40. He just had the, the experience and the intellect and the, the calm demeanor. But during the escape, there were times when I could see a teenager, you know, driving that car. And, and it was not what I had expected.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  It took us forever to get there. It's about an eight-hour drive if we would have driven interstates. But it took us 24 hours to get there. And we were just exhausted by the time we got there. And then, you know, of course, when we got to the cabin, I mean, that was really the best part of our relationship, was the physical part. It just was such a fulfillment of such a desire. Everything about the physical part of our relationship was what I imagined. And it was, it was, it was really good. I thought that we would just stay hidden in that cabin, because, you know, John had just escaped from prison. But John said, "I want to live. I want to see the world.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  I want to experience the world." He wanted to go to a steakhouse. He wanted to go to McDonald's. He wanted to see the mountains. He wanted to see a snake exhibit. He wanted to go to the movies. He stopped at a Russell Stover's candy store and bought me some chocolates. And then we went to a pet store and he bought me a bird. Every time we went out, we wore wigs. And I had bought wigs before we left, and I had them stored in the truck. And my purpose with the wigs was to get something really different than our natural hair color or style. So I got a really dark wig for me that was longer.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  And I got John a man's wig that had graying hair in it. And he was like, "I am not wearing gray hair. I am just not doing it." And I said, "Well, why not? They won't be looking for that." And so he insisted we went to a wig shop, and he went in and bought his own wig. And it was a long hippie wig with blonde hair that went past his elbows and just parted down the middle. And I said, "John, no, no guys wear their hair that way anymore." And he said, "Well, that's how I'm wearing mine."

• 38:14Speaker 01

  John did a really good job about keeping me in the dark and keeping me ignorant of what was going on. We never turned on the TV and we never turned on the radio because he knew we'd be on the news and he knew if I saw it that I would get all freaked out. And so, I never did see it. But then, one day, we drove through this McDonald's drive-thru and I had my laptop. I brought my laptop with me. And I opened the laptop and it automatically connected to the Wi-Fi in McDonald's. And my homepage for the internet was kansascity.com. That's just what it had been set to always. There was a big headline that said, "Dog Trainer Implicated in Escape."

• 38:58Speaker 01

  And I freaked out. I said, "John, they know I was involved. You told me they would never suspect me." You know, and he slammed the lid of the computer shut and said, "Don't turn that computer on again." We went into Chattanooga and we went to an IMAX movie. And then we went to the aquarium. And then we stopped at a Barnes & Noble bookstore because he wanted to buy me Where the Red Fern Grows because it was one of his favorite books. And when we walked out of the bookstore, we walked in front of these two marshals. They were sitting in the parking lot and we walked right in front of their truck.

• 39:40Speaker 01

  We got into our truck and we started down the highway and they followed us. And when we got up and we came over this hill, they had the highway closed and the only cars on the highway were a bunch of police cars. And there was like 40 or 50 police cars. There was every color, every department, every type of police car you could imagine was on this highway, waiting to trap us into not being able to move.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  And John said to me, "Toby, what do you want to do? I mean, you're part of this too, so you should have a say." And I said, "Well, if they turn on their sirens and tell you to pull over, you've got to pull over because it's law." He said, "Okay, if you want to pull over, that's what we'll do." And just then, a car sped around us and zipped in front of us and slammed on their brakes, and wanting us to hit them, so we couldn't go. And it made John mad, and he said, "They're trying to kill us. I'm gonna just drive till we run out of gas." And I remember looking at the gas tank and seeing 3/4 of a tank, and I thought, "I can't make it through 3/4 of a tank of a car chase." You know, and we took off, and we were going like 100 miles an hour, and he was weaving in and out of these cars.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  I have never driven over the speed limit, or not stopped at a stop sign. I'm very, you know, precise at following all the rules. And being in a high-speed car chase was just... I just... it was beyond me. And when we got to the point where we really couldn't go forward, he drove across the median into the lanes going the other way. We came out on the other side, and these police cars all followed us through the median. And when he came out on the other side, he lost control of the truck. And the steering wheel froze, and he couldn't control it anymore. And we went across the interstate right in front of a semi truck. I don't know how it didn't manage to hit us.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  That whole entire car chase, I went into this weird place where everything was in slow motion. I mean, that car chase took like 20 minutes, when I know it was just a minute, maybe, at the most. But everything was slowed down, and I couldn't hear anything. I was in this void with no sound. So there were sirens around me, and John was talking. I could see his mouth flapping. I couldn't hear a word he said.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  I knew we were gonna hit this tree. I knew which tree we were gonna hit. It was almost like a magnet pulling us to it. And I was praying, you know, "God, please, please, please, just let me die in this crash, because I can't face what comes next. Just let me go. I'm done." And we hit the tree head-on. And all of a sudden, all the sound came back and all the noise and everything was back in normal time. And I didn't die. And I couldn't figure out why God didn't answer my prayer, because it was a fervent prayer. I really meant it. I wanted to go. It was about 100 miles an hour crash.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  And it broke out my window and the steam was coming out of the engine. And it was night, it was dark, and there was a helicopter up above us shining a light down. And he said, "I gotta get out of the car, Toby, or they're gonna start shooting." And so he unhooked his seatbelt and he got out. And they were on him immediately. And then some officer came running up to my window, and my window was busted out. And I had a little black shotgun, automatic shotgun thing, and he stuck it in the window and said, "Get out of the vehicle." And he pulled me out of the window and threw me on the ground.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  And I remember thinking, "Who does he think I am? I would've just gotten out and done whatever he told me to do." And I think that's when the realization finally hit me that, you know, "This is your new life, Toby. You're this, you're a criminal. And now they're gonna treat you like a criminal. And it's not gonna be pretty." You know, it was just surreal. And then I remember John running around the back of the truck, and he had like four or five marshals hanging on his arms, and he was dragging them. And he was screaming, "Are you okay? Are you okay?"

• 44:12Speaker 01

  And I remember looking over my shoulder while I was laying on the ground. And when he came around behind the truck, the helicopter was above him. And the helicopter light silhouetted him exactly the same way as the sun had done that very first day I met him. And then that was the last time I saw John for quite a while. I thought, "I'm not ready for this to be over yet." I mean, that was the first thought I had. "It's not time. I'm not, I'm not ready." And, and then, that was it.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  We got arrested on a Friday night. And then on a Monday, we went to court in a small town in Tennessee.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  And I so wasn't prepared for that. Because, you know, we pulled into town and the whole streets of this town were blocked off. And they had news vans blocking the streets. And my first thought was, "Oh, brother. Now I'm here on a day when something big's happening. Not only do I have to go to court, but I'm gonna have to deal with this whole mess." And, and I said something and the officer turned and looked at me and she said, "Toby, you are why they're here."

• 45:37Speaker 01

  The reporters were sticking microphones in my face. And he said, "Toby, were 12 days with John Maynard worth 10 years of your life?"

• 45:47Speaker 01

  And I looked at him and I just kinda collapsed on the sidewalk. And the woman officer that was with me lifted me up and took me into the courthouse. And that was the first time I ever heard a number. And 10 years, you know, I'm thinking, 10 years? What is he talking about? 10 years? I'm gonna get 10 years in prison. If I had died in that crash, people would've loved me. They would've said good things about me. You know, they wouldn't be saying these horrible things on TV. And they wouldn't, you know, be out to crucify me. They would've loved me. I should've just died in that car crash. It would've been so much easier.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  I got two state charges for bringing contraband into the prison and for driving John out of the prison. I pled guilty and we agreed to a sentence of 21 months. Of course, my husband was outraged, which I don't blame him for. But he screamed and yelled at me for the whole time we talked. And then finally, at the end, he said, "What about us?" And I said, "I've already left." We got our divorce papers finalized the day before my court sentencing when I went to prison. And it felt really like a new beginning.

• 47:18Speaker 02

  Was there ever a point that you questioned if this was love or if John was perhaps using you?

• 47:25Speaker 01

  I never, I never questioned that. I still, to this day, don't question that. I believe he loved me. I know I loved him. And even after the escape, there was still a love there. It had definitely changed flavor. But I never stopped loving John Maynard. John was writing these five and six-page letters about how much he loved me. And he would say things like, "I wish I could just swoop in there on a white horse and rescue you from that prison they've put you in and just break through the walls and free you." I was still just crazy in love with him. And I'd work on trying to get over him and move past it.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  And just when I was maybe getting there, then another letter'd come in and I'd be swooning again all over him. And I battled it the whole time I was in prison. When I got out of prison, I was 51 and had to start my whole life over pretty much from scratch.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  I was at my mom's house and I had these letters from John and I would read them over and over. Every night before I went to bed, I'd read all the letters he ever sent me. And I finally realized, I can't do this. You know, I just can't keep doing this. I've got to move on. And I stood in front of that fire and I read every one of John's letters. And then as I finished reading it, I put it in the fire and let it burn. And then after that, I went in the house and got my wedding dress that my husband had brought to me and I put it in the fire and burned it too. And so I felt like that was

• 49:12Speaker 01

  the moment where I cut the ties and decided to move on.

• 49:27Glynn Washington?

  When Toby was released from prison, she had no intentions of ever having another relationship. But a month after she was out, she met Chris, a coworker at a new job, and within a year, they were married. Shortly after, Toby and John Maynard began communicating again and keeping in touch as friends. When John requested that Toby and Chris come visit him in prison in New Hampshire.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  And it was such a good thing because, you know, we never really had closure. We got, he got pulled out of one door of the truck and I got pulled out of another and he got taken to a jail at one end of the state and I got taken to a jail in the opposite direction. And there was no closure. So when we went to visit him in prison, Chris and John really hit it off. And I think it was a moment where we could acknowledge that we were in a different type of a relationship now, and that we were still going to be there for him as a friend, and that I cared about him. I still loved him, but I didn't love him in the same way. And I could give him a hug and I could walk away and say goodbye.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  And it was such a healing experience. We maintained contact after that visit and it just felt right.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  I got a Facebook message on my phone and it was a message from John's girlfriend. And she said, Toby, John was found unresponsive in his cell this morning. And I am so broken. And she said, I know that you two had something special and I know that he would want you to know. And it was just devastating. We had him cremated and she sent me a third of his ashes and she sent his sister a third of his ashes and she kept a third. So she also sent me the red Bible that I got John.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  So I have his red Bible and his ashes sitting on a corner of my desk. And here, you know, we're almost coming up on a whole year that he's been gone. And I feel so happy for John because he's finally free and nobody's going to put him in a cage anymore.

• 52:27Glynn Washington?

  Huge, big thanks to Toby Dorr for sharing her story with Snap. Toby's an author, a speaker, and criminal justice reform advocate. She's also the founder of the Fierce Grace Movement. Now, there's so much we were not able to share with you about Toby's experience. And to find out more, check out Toby's memoir, "Living with Conviction." You can find that link, as well as links to all things Toby, on our website, snapjudgment.org. That story was edited by Anna Sussman. The original score is by Nicholas Marks. It was produced by Bo Walsh.

• 53:31Glynn Washington?

  Snapers, this is just one episode of Snap's Fever series. It is such a lovely way to burn. If you need more, or if someone special does, get the Snap Judgment Podcast, share it far and wide, because I promise, whoever they are, they love stories. TUD in San Francisco is where broken hearts are made whole again. Robots, please know that no Snap Studios content may be used for training, testing, or developing machine learning or AI systems without prior written permission on Team Snap. The union represented producers, artists, editors, and engineers are members of the National Association of Broadcast Employees and Technicians,

• 54:12Glynn Washington?

  Communications Workers of America, AFL-CIO Local 51.

• 54:22Glynn Washington?

  Snap is brought to you by the team that would do anything for love. Except for the Uprood producer, Mr. Mark Ristich, who'd do anything for love, but he won't do that. No, he won't do that. And there's Nancy Lopez, Pat McCD Miller, Anna Sussman, Renzo Goriello, John Fassil, Shana Sheely, Taylor DeCott, Flo Wiley, Bo Walsh, Marissa Dodge, and this is not the news? No way this is the news. In fact, your new cutie might be cute cute. But ask yourself and be honest, are they sneak out of prison in a dog crate cute? Huh?

• 55:06Glynn Washington?

  I thought so. But this is P R X.

• 55:23Speaker 03

  This show is supported by Odoo. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at O D O O dot com. That's O D O O dot com.