The Mack Daddy

In the Big Top, the Ringmaster wows the crowd in his top hat and sparkly jacket. But underneath the glitz is a feeling that only a father can lay to rest. And what do you do when your family’s big moment on national TV turns into a total disaster? ... Happy Father's Day y'all! Ringmaster In the Big Top, the Ringmaster wows the crowd in his top hat and sparkly jacket. But underneath the glitz is a question that only a father can lay to rest. Thank you Jonathan Lee Iverson for sharing your story with us! Jonathan is a Ringmaster to this day, you can find him touring up and down California. Produced by Anna Sussman. Original score by Derek Barber. Photo credit: Wednesday Aja. The Angry Marriage? What do you do when your family’s big moment on national TV turns into a total disaster? A huge thank you to Charles, Linda and Rebecca Kraus for sharing your story with Snap! You can find all things Charles the Clown including videos https://www.charlestheclown.com/moreabouttheshow/videosamples.php, songs https://www.charlestheclown.com/moreabouttheshow/videosamples.php, magic tricks https://www.charlestheclown.com/justforkids/magictricks.php, puppet routines https://www.charlestheclown.com/justforkids/puppets.php and even book Charles https://www.charlestheclown.com/booking/ for your next event in the Bay Area. Dr. Bonnie Maslin and The Today Show did not respond to our requests for comment about this story. Produced by Bo Walsh. Original score by Dirk Schwartzhoff. Edited by Regina Bediako & Anna Sussman. Season 16 - Episode 25 Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices https://dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:08Glynn Washington?

  Okay. The perfect cup of coffee in those cheap ceramic mugs has a timing problem. Too hot, too hot, still too hot, then there it is. That perfect sip. And then too cold, too cold. And come on, it just got good. Wow. My Ember 3 mug lets me set the precise temperature I want for my coffee, for my tea, the Goldilocks zone, and locks it right there. So that first perfect sip can be the next sip and the next. And that, that is a better morning. Why did I just find out about this? The Ember 3 mug, your coffee exactly as you left it.

• 0:53Glynn Washington?

  Discover the best deals happening now at ember.com/snap. Go to ember.com right now. And when you're asked where you heard about them, let them know it was Snap Judgment. That's ember.com/snap. Okay, okay, it's almost, almost gift giving time. And because gift giving time is cold outside time, it's want to stay by a fire time. I like giving something cozy and nobody, but nobody does cozy like Quince. What's better than one for them, one for me, or you?

• 1:32Glynn Washington?

  Like my Quince Organic Gauze Dream Quilt Set paired with the Brush Cotton Sheet Set that I got for me, that I got for them, for me? Put it together, you've got cozy squared. Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Snap Judgment. It's the best way to support the show.

• 2:11Glynn Washington?

  Okay, so the other day, I'm avoiding life. Doom scrolling, I'm part of the problem, mindless. And I don't know how, but the algorithm, the digital overlord, it knows me. It sees me, plays me, makes two kinds of things pop up in my phone. The first are ads from companies selling stuff to men with oversized heads. How does this thing know? It's always the same pitch.

• 2:42Speaker 01

  Is your head too damn big? Well, we've got a hat that can fit even your watermelon-sized noggin.

• 2:49Glynn Washington?

  And no one else sees this ad on their phones. You don't see it on yours, I've checked. The other thing that pops up for me are videos of fathers doing their thing. Catching babies as they fall from windows, snatching the toddler up from being run down by a runaway Camaro, not spilling a single drop of beer. And the burly, tattooed, bearded man wearing a tutu and tiara at the recital, dancing with his little daughter. I'm all choked up watching the same videos over and over on my phone. It's beautiful. They're beautiful. And did you know that Mother's Day is the busiest restaurant day of the year?

• 3:34Glynn Washington?

  And Father's Day barely registers in the top 10? I'm sure that is as it should be. This is not a competition. In fact, we, here at Snap, we have made Mother's Day episodes of this show, a few of them. And for some reason, it gives fathers short shrift. But this algorithm says fatherhood is important to me. And maybe your algorithm says the same thing. So today, Snap Judgment proudly presents Night Daddy. My name is in Washington, and BigFatWaterheads.com is running a sale when you're listening to Snap Judgment.

• 4:30Glynn Washington?

  Now, did you ever get a job? An unexpected job? It's kind of a crazy job and you know that Pops is probably not gonna approve. And honestly, we all wanna live a life that makes our father proud, but sometimes the world takes you places you never expected. In those moments, you wonder, or maybe you know, nah, daddy's not gonna be too happy with this. Snap judgment.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  It is a sensory overload and you smell the sawdust immediately. You smell the popcorn and the cotton candy immediately. It was absolutely chaotic because you hear all these different languages at once and the poor woman who's trying to get everybody their IDs, she's having a breakdown, she's pregnant at the time. You have animals training over here, you have acrobats over there.

• 5:28Speaker 02

  It's the first day of a new job for Jonathan Lee Iverson and he's run away with the circus.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  I realized with that moment, I said, okay, this is kind of place where they throw you in the ocean and you have to swim. And they gave me some juggling. Why don't you learn to juggle these balls because you might have to cover whatever. So I'm hanging out with this Hungarian and she teaches me a couple of, to juggle three balls. And, you know, then I went around with the dance captain. It was this incredible, like, it was a wild act. He would climb up this ladder about 20 feet in the air, light himself on fire and dive into an airbag. I was in shock most of the time, um, because you never get, it's never not thrilling.

• 6:22Speaker 02

  It's the 1990s and this is not your local, small-town circus. It's the Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey Circus.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Animals that were in the parade, elephants, horses, camels, zebras,

• 6:39Speaker 01

  I think, a couple of llamas. It just was, I remember an ostrich, yes, we had an ostrich. You know, and we had a leopard.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  And Jonathan is there not to sweep the sawdust, or breathe fire, or walk a tightrope. He's there to be the ringmaster for the greatest show on earth. The man who stands center ring and conducts the madness.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  I started off with, ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages, everybody's standing around, the whole company is standing around. Ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages. And then I sang the opening number for that show that year, and I get this rousing ovation. I mean, and everything gets busy from there, literally.

• 7:26Speaker 02

  Jonathan is 22 years old, and a long way from where he began in New York City. Ringling Brothers lured him here, off the opera circuit, because they wanted a big voice.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  They wanted a singing ringmaster. And, you know, at the time, I fit the bill. I was not seeking out Ringling Brothers. The idea of circus wasn't even in my, in my thoughts. I mean, that's not something I thought I would do professionally, so it wasn't a thing for me.

• 8:01Speaker 02

  Jonathan had sung with the Harlem Boys Choir when he was a little kid. He'd sung at Carnegie Hall and the White House. He had dreams of singing onstage at the Metropolitan Opera.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  There's always this thing, because the narrative of circus is so negative and so thick. It's not as legitimate as opera, or Broadway, or something like that. Like somehow circus is less, uh, uh, significant.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  And there was one more thing about taking this job with Ringling, a big thing. He wasn't just going to be next in the long line of ringmasters. He was about to become a pioneer of the big top. He was about to become a first.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  I was told immediately about the historical ramifications of my presence at Ringling Brothers. I would not only be the youngest, the first black American, but also the first New Yorker to don the top hat of Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey in what was then the 129 years of its history.

• 9:11Glynn Washington?

  He's in the spotlight as the first African-American ringmaster at Ringling Brothers Barnum & Bailey Circus.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  At age 22, he became the youngest ringmaster at Ringling Brothers ever and the first African-American to do the job. Got tapped to be the first black ringmaster.

• 9:27Speaker 03

  Jonathan Lee Iverson is a true example of black empowerment.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  I understood the significance and I didn't, you know, shun it, but I needed people to get beyond the optics of something I can't help, you know? And so that was my main concern because I worked really hard to be a singer. I kind of want you to look at that.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  The pressure is instinctive. You understand you're the great experiment and you understand that if you don't make this happen, if you fall on your face, if you're not excellent, beyond that, no one else is getting this shot. So that was that pressure. You have to be Jackie Robinson, man. You have to be Barack Obama. You have to be pristine, you know? Every black person knows this, when they become the first, you, it's not even enough for you to be the most talented guy in the room. You have to damn near be Jesus, you know?

• 10:33Speaker 02

  Jonathan was given a 12-foot-tall float that he was to stand on as he led the parade around the big top.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Moving on this thing in, I have to sing and announce, and this thing is shaking.

• 10:45Speaker 02

  He was given sparkly tails and a top hat, and they wrote music for him, and he developed his act around those songs.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  "Welcome to the World of the Circus" was the name of the opening number, which was our opening parade. And it just starts with this lovely piano introduction. I'm on top, I'm on top of a pedestal and I'm welcoming everybody. Come along, it's time now. Come along, let's go. And it just starts really soft and then it suddenly opens up and then you have this calve cade of... Everybody, clowns, elephants, obviously, horses, camels, everything's coming out, zebras, everything's coming out. It's like this, it's this, the song itself was designed for this beautiful tribute to this wonderful fantasy you're entering in.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  Night after night, Jonathan led the parade around the big top, and then, when the show was done, onto the mile-long circus train, and they'd set out across America.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  I was given a quarter car. Um, it was a bedroom, a living room kitchenette, and a bathroom with shower and everything, and it was all mine. It's beautiful. You climb on to the vestibule into your train car, and you don't have to live out of a suitcase for two years, because it's home. It's a city without a zip code.

• 12:09Speaker 01

  There's this blanket of gratitude and awe that goes over you when you're in the middle of this. I don't know if I was in the middle of a show. I don't know if it was just me being on a train and just watching America go by. I would stand out on a vestibule and I would watch, you know, America go by. It was fun. It was beautiful.

• 12:34Speaker 02

  As the show rolled across the country, Jonathan sang and announced and introduced.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Baltimore, Maryland, we're here. I'm your ringmaster, Jonathan Lee Iverson of Ringling Brothers in Bonham and Bailey. The Horizon Center, March 24th through the 27th, and the Patriot Center, April 13th through the 24th.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  But as he tried to settle into the role, he felt all this pressure on him.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  I was struggling at that time, mind you, with the whole idea of this whole black first, because I was in that mindset of, you know, I don't want people to see that, you know, whatever, right?

• 13:11Speaker 02

  Tell me more about that. What was the struggle?

• 13:13Speaker 01

  It was just, you know, I understood instinctively, as a black person, uh, in, in this country, you don't want to deal with the hassle of the color schemes. No one wants the race card to go away more than black people. It's annoying. Um, I didn't want my...

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Talent, my merit, to be overshadowed. And I was like, I don't want to have all my efforts mired in people working out their own peculiar bigotries and perceptions and heaping that on me.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  So what would you do, like, what would you do to fight that annoyance and that pressure you felt?

• 14:01Speaker 01

  There's nothing I could ever do to fight that because if I fought it, I would give those people what they wanted.

• 14:09Speaker 02

  Jonathan put on the show one night for about 20,000 people. And after the show, with sweat dripping from underneath his sparkly top hat, he was intercepted.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  And this one performance, and I'm dead tired. I don't want to deal with anybody. I think it was on a three-show day. I think it was basically the end of a three-show day. And I'm dead tired and I'm walking off the arena floor. Everything was clear. And this gorgeous mother stops me in my tracks, tears just streaming down her face.

• 14:50Glynn Washington?

  What this woman is about to say will change, well, honestly, everything for Jonathan. Stay tuned.

• 15:03Glynn Washington?

  Look, recently, I just had the treatment. I needed a sofa, wanted to finally, finally have something nice. And I picked out a beautiful leather couch, gorgeous, from Article. And it recently arrived. And I cannot stop looking at it. It's stunning. And it's time because the age of throwaway, fast fashion nonsense is over. The time of craft and quality is now. And not only do you get all of this without a huge markup. It's not just a bunch of parts in a box that you can't put together either. Article offers fast, affordable shipping across the US and Canada with options for professional

• 15:46Glynn Washington?

  assembly if you prefer a hands-off experience. And Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, visit article.com/snap and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's article.com/snap for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 16:12Glynn Washington?

  You know, when you want a snack, something salty and sweet, but you're not supposed to be eating snacks, supposed to be eating celery and carrots and other things that taste like cardboard, well, Kachava's got the nutrition your body craves in one deliciously simple shake. Let me tell you what I love. Kachava's new salted caramel flavor. You've got your sweet, you've got your salty, you've got your nutrition all at the same time. And if you want variety, they've got chocolate, vanilla, chai, matcha, strawberry, coffee, cinnamon French toast. What? Cinnamon French toast? Give in and embrace your salty side.

• 16:55Glynn Washington?

  Go to kachava.com and use code JUDGMENT for 15% off your first order. That's kachava, K-A-C-H-A-V-A dot com, code JUDGMENT.

• 17:11Glynn Washington?

  Welcome back to Snap Judgment. When the last we left, Jonathan Lee Iverson, ringmaster of the Ringling Brothers and Barnum Bailey Circus, had just finished a huge show and was stopped in his tracks by the mother of a young black boy.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  She kind of came out of nowhere. She kind of like appeared. And she just simply told me, she said, you know, you have no idea how bad I wanted my son to see you. I needed him to be here just to see you. That's all she really told me. I got exactly what she was saying. The thing I realized is I could do, I could do two things. I could do more than one thing. And that really was the tradition of my people, to be quite frank with you, is, you know, you could be, you can excel at what it is you do, and you could do it being cognizant of the fact

• 18:11Speaker 01

  that whether you like it or not, you are a representative.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  Jonathan learned to stand in the circus ring, both as a symbol and as himself, and take it all in. But the roar of a thousand strangers was nothing compared to the silence of one man.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  My interest in my father's approval was something that was unknown to me. I didn't really know how much I needed it. There's something about your father saying, "I approve you. You are validated," that rings really to the very DNA of a child. And I don't care how old you are. It's something about your father doing it, because whether we like it or not, you are your father's child.

• 19:07Speaker 02

  Jonathan's father did not see his singing career as a dream realized at all.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  My father was an immigrant from Trinidad, Tobago. This beautiful dark-skinned man, he was firefighter. New York City firefighter. And I knew he wasn't in on this thing, you know? Singing is not something you do. He's an immigrant. You go and you get a practical job, get the benefits and retire. You know? So singing wasn't... Yeah, what are you gonna do with that? You know?

• 19:42Speaker 02

  Like, how did you know that that was what was his feeling?

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Oh, I knew it was his feeling because he said so. Yeah, what are you gonna do with a degree in Doremi Faso? You know? The biggest dream killers are your parents. Biggest dream killers are the people who are most familiar with you because they don't know. Um, and he would try to give me, I remember my senior year, he gave me an application for part authority to police.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  His dad lived in his hometown of New York City. And the way that Ringling Brothers comes into New York City is with a parade of elephants through the midtown tunnel.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  I remember riding an elephant through the tunnels. We did like a media blitz around Madison Square Garden. So I was with the great gump of Gable Williams. And I have a picture of it and it's one of my fondest pictures of him placing me on top of an elephant. And, uh, I mean, I think it was the first time I was ever on an elephant.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  And it was at, in New York City?

• 20:48Speaker 01

  In New York City, Madison Square Garden. So it was just this cavalcade of elephants, horses, camels, you name it. You're the king of New York for this little bit moment, you know? Like, it's, it's this epic thing. The one thing that will humble even the most, like, hardened New Yorker is seeing an elephant. It's like you, you have to melt, you know? You become, everybody becomes a kid in the presence of them. Your curiosity picks up and you're like, wow, you know?

• 21:23Speaker 02

  The day before the show, Jonathan went back to his dressing room in Madison Square Garden, changed out of his sparkle top hat and tights and into regular clothes to go meet his dad.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  It was a Thursday, and my dad actually picked me up. And it's so funny, because when he came through the door, I just instinctively just grabbed him and hugged him. I never really hugged him before, but it was like this unction to hug him, and so I did. And he hugged me back, and we went and ate and joked a little bit. And then he drove me to get my hair cut. And in the car, we're having... He says, "Look, I want to talk to you about certain things."

• 22:04Speaker 01

  He says, "You know, listen,

• 22:07Speaker 01

  I want you to kind of understand, like, there were certain things I had to reconcile with my father. And you might find that those certain things you might have to reconcile with me as well." Things started kind of... Light bulbs started popping off, so I was like, "Okay." Then we get into this exchange about... You know, in his way, he was saying, "I'm sorry. Forgive me if I wasn't what you needed." So we were just parked across the street from the barber shop. So he said, "All right, listen. For this thing tomorrow at the garden, do I have to wear a suit?" I said, "Yes, you gotta wear a suit, Dad. He has baseball caps, t-shirts, has his beer, and that's who he is."

• 22:52Speaker 01

  Then we finished talking and smiled, and I walked across the street to the barber shop and said, "I'll see you tomorrow night."

• 23:04Speaker 02

  The next morning, he started with Jonathan's dress rehearsal.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  The magic was in the air. You could just feel that. And I felt like... I felt like I was 12 feet tall. And I knew it was a special, special night. I appreciated every ounce of it. I was like, "I'm not gonna cry. I'm not gonna... I'm not gonna get all..." And somewhere in the middle of the rehearsal, I... It felt like somebody pulled something out of me.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  And my body, like, I just, like, spun around or something. Director looks at me like I'm a bit insane and I'm, I just kinda like, I don't know, it just felt like something left my body.

• 23:59Speaker 01

  I put on my opening costume, which was this red, uh, the red classic coat, but, you know, with the sequins and the stones and your name. I felt clean and just spectacular.

• 24:11Speaker 02

  Was it heavy? Was the coat heavy?

• 24:12Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, it was very heavy. Very heavy, but not in the sense that I couldn't carry it. But that particular night, I remember feeling a sense of levity and it was as if I came into this role finally. Like, leading up to it was like this turbulence and all of a sudden it felt like I was okay. And it felt that way the entire night. And, you know, so you just had this packed hippodrome of fabulous artists, both animal and human, these glorious decked out floats.

• 24:53Speaker 01

  Ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages, the Feld family is proud to present Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey. Welcome to the greatest show on earth! There was Crazy Wilson Dominguez and his whirling Wheel of Wonder. There was, of course, a single trapeze. There was this fantastic wire act over the tigers. It was really, really exciting. I remember I give the first announcement. It was the Donard Act, which was a, they were juggling on horseback. And I was standing off to the side and all of a sudden, I kid

• 25:38Speaker 01

  you not, I felt older and really settled. And I had no, there was like, I just had, I was completely...

• 25:49Speaker 01

  At peace, like I felt like in such control. I just felt older, the whole entire, that was the only thing that went through my, so I just felt so calm. I should, I thought I was gonna be a nervous wreck, cuz it's New Year, it's my town, it's Madison Square Garden. It was the strangest thing. And I just felt like I had this presence with me, that was really comforting and very like, just it was kind of like a beautiful shadow, a shadow of some, I don't know, and I didn't feel like I was in harm's way or anything. I felt like I was, I felt really protected.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  So the show closes with "Put a Little Circus in Your Life." It's the finale song, and it's a big upbeat, wonderful pyro shooting all over the place.

• 26:38Speaker 01

  You know, so, go to my dressing room, I resettle myself, and then I'm rushing to see everybody. So I see everybody give the hugs, and we laugh a little bit.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  Afterwards, my mother, she, she said, "Listen, uh, let's take you to the hotel, I have something to talk to you about." So we go to the hotel, see my mother, like, just tears, you know, just gush out of her eyes. And she tells me, "Your, your father died this afternoon."

• 27:14Speaker 01

  The air went out of me, and like I was suddenly still. I was on my bed.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Everything made sense, cuz he passed away during that afternoon. Something left my body.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  And I understood who the, then I said, "That's where you were. You were with me. You were with me that whole time."

• 27:40Speaker 01

  Because I've never felt that feeling ever again.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  Looking back on that conversation, it was really the validation. It was just, it was about me as a man. That's what he was really going for. I mean, um, the career was set. It's like, okay, we're here, buddy. Like, you saw me in New York Times. Singing was paying the bills, so that I knew most assuredly he was very proud of that. He was proud of the fact that I was working. I think that's, I mean, honestly, he was just proud of the fact that I had a job. And, and I was working. And, you know, that, that did his immigrant hard well. Okay, he's professional. That really was the validation. Like, he knew, we didn't have to talk about that.

• 28:30Speaker 02

  Jonathan ended up staying with Ringling Brothers for almost 20 years, right up until the show closed its curtains in 2017.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  Ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages, I am your ringmaster. I'm a proud New Yorker.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  And it has been the honor of my life to be the voice of these tremendous artists who work so hard. I'm nothing more than a glorified fan who gets paid to dress well.

• 29:03Speaker 02

  But even after Ringling Brothers, Jonathan didn't stop. He worked with Omnim Circus, a disability-inclusive show, and Circus Vargas, a traveling circus that once had a big top the size of a football field.

• 29:21Speaker 02

  I found him under a smaller big top in a Target parking lot in Long Beach. He was beaming with glee on a three-show Sunday, stepping out from behind the curtain and into the center ring.

• 29:52Glynn Washington?

  Jonathan is a ringmaster to this very day, and you can find him touring up and down California. Thank you, Jonathan Lee Iverson, for sharing your story with us. The original score for that piece was by Derek Barber. It was produced by Anna Sussman. Now, in just a moment, we're getting our first big break live on TV. Stay tuned. Did you ever look at your credit card bill and think, "How did that happen? What am I gonna do? I need a plan." Well, I did. Let me tell you something. Having a plan is one thing, but using it,

• 30:36Glynn Washington?

  watching that number, that "I owe the credit people" number go to zero, that is something different. And Monarch helped me get there. The Debt Pay Down Simulator and Visualizer uses your real balances and payments to project your debt-free date. Try different payments. See what gets you there sooner. Watch that date move. And when you hit zero, that's when you get the budget for the celebration. Write your own money story with Monarch. Use code SNAP at monarch.com to get your first year of Monarch Core half off at just $50. That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com with code SNAP.

• 31:20Glynn Washington?

  Today's episode is brought to you by Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Americans United has spent the last 80 years defending your right to live as yourself and believe as you choose, so long as you don't harm others. Through film screenings, speaking engagements, and valuable resources like the Know Your Rights in Public School Guides, AU empowers people nationwide to recommit to the separation of church and state, protecting individual freedoms and strengthening our democracy for all. Freedom without favor and equality without exception. Learn more at au.org/TENC.

• 32:03Glynn Washington?

  Welcome back to Snap Judgment. My name is Tim Washington. And for our next story, we proudly present The Angry Marriage.

• 32:11Speaker 04

  He's a what? Clown. Oh, wait a minute. Are you really a clown?

• 32:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'm really a clown.

• 32:17Speaker 04

  Are you sure? Yes.

• 32:19Glynn Washington?

  After more than 40 years as a children's entertainer, our friend Charles the Clown is a man of many stories.

• 32:26Speaker 04

  How do you know he's a clown? He's clowny. Hello clown. Hello clown.

• 32:34Glynn Washington?

  And today, he's back to bring us one from 1994, way before digital cable or streaming came on the scene. These, these were the days when you sit down at the kitchen table in front of that little black and white TV with the antenna to eat your Cheerios at breakfast with your favorite morning show on in the background. And for this story, Charles brought the family in to help him tell it. Snap Judgment.

• 33:03Speaker 05

  On this particular occasion, I was in New York City to visit my daughter who was at school.

• 33:10Speaker 06

  All of a sudden, we get this call from my mom. Surprise!

• 33:15Speaker 05

  And Linda said, "We're gonna be on The Today Show." What happened was The Today Show was looking for a couple who could discuss how to handle anger if the kids are around. Obviously, if you're married, there are gonna be tense moments. What do you do if the children are there? Linda and I, Linda's my wife, had been on many TV shows because we had authored a book about kids parties.

• 33:46Speaker 07

  Charles is a natural with kids. It's a gift. He really has a gift.

• 33:51Speaker 05

  I've handled thousands of audiences and worked with kids, and I'm a parent, and a proud parent, I might add. And we fit the profile, we think, because every family has arguments. And we had worked out ways of dealing with tense moments. My wife's an early childhood specialist. She has taught preschool. She taught parenting at the community college level.

• 34:18Speaker 07

  I was excited to be able to talk about child development issues. And that was a big deal.

• 34:25Speaker 05

  So she said she was interested. She was interviewed by a representative from the show. And during that time, Linda was talking about all the things she understood about child development.

• 34:37Speaker 07

  From what they said, they wanted us to be on the show to talk about helping children handle their feelings.

• 34:45Speaker 05

  The woman at the other end of the phone from the Today Show was saying, yeah, that's what we want to hear about. That's what we want to talk about. It seemed obvious that the reason they were picking us is because we had a certain amount of expertise. We were going to share that with the viewers at home. Our older daughter, Rebecca, had also been asked to be on the show.

• 35:10Speaker 06

  I, little 18-year-old me, was studying psychology and wanting to kind of follow in their footsteps in a lot of ways. And so I was like, oh, I'm going to be on TV also. And I'll be able to share like what I know about kids and families. I was really aware that I had two parents who care about what kids think and how they feel and what they need. I think I knew that it was a big deal for my parents. I could sense like how excited my parents were.

• 35:44Speaker 05

  We wanted the world to know. So we were on the phone all over the country to our relatives, our friends. You gotta see us. We're going to be on the Today Show. Be sure to tune in.

• 36:01Speaker 05

  They put us up at the Hampshire House, which was a wonderful hotel on the south end of Central Park. It was fancier than any place we'd ever stayed.

• 36:17Speaker 05

  The next morning, bright and early, a limousine came. I mean, a stretched limousine, and picked us up and took us over to Radio City.

• 36:26Speaker 06

  I was like, whoa, whoa. This is big.

• 36:30Speaker 05

  We got in, out of the car, taken to the green room in the NBC television studio. They were applying makeup to us. And in walks this woman, sort of a serious look on her face, perhaps stern. And she starts to question Linda. It's almost like an interrogation. Just a couple of brief, very specific questions. They obviously had to do with our appearance on the show. And then, all of a sudden, she says, "Got it." And then turned and left. And we looked at each other. We couldn't figure out what in the world was this about.

• 37:13Speaker 05

  Next thing we know, it's time to be on the show. We're led down the dark passageway. We're kind of excited, a little bit nervous. And there we are seated with Katie Couric.

• 37:29Speaker 08

  From NBC News, this is Today with Katie Couric, live from Studio 1A in Rockefeller Plaza.

• 37:39Speaker 09

  And welcome to Today on this Tuesday morning, everyone. I'm Katie Couric.

• 37:43Speaker 06

  When the show started taping, I have no idea what's about to happen.

• 37:49Speaker 09

  Today, in part two of our series on marital anger, we're going to look at the effects of anger on the children.

• 37:54Speaker 05

  Once we were alive, we just barely sat down. Couric had introduced us.

• 38:03Speaker 09

  Linda and Charles Kraus have been married for 21 years and are willing to admit they've had some very stormy times. Their daughter, 18-year-old Rebecca, has witnessed many of their disagreements and we'll ask her about that a little bit later.

• 38:14Speaker 07

  I just was thinking, "Oh no, something's wrong. Something is wrong here."

• 38:21Speaker 05

  I was shocked. I was actually shocked. I had to put it together. It took me a second to realize that the whole focus of what we're going to do was not what we'd anticipated.

• 38:33Speaker 06

  It did not take long for me to realize, like, "Whoa, this is very different than what I imagined it was going to be."

• 38:41Speaker 05

  And seated next to her was this other woman. It was the woman who had briefly asked questions of Linda moments before in the dressing room. And then there she was, introduced as a psychologist. Not just the psychologist, but somebody who was going to talk about us.

• 39:02Speaker 09

  And we'd also like to welcome back psychotherapist Bonnie Maslin, author of "The Angry Marriage: Overcoming the Rage, Reclaiming the Love." Good morning to both of you, welcome.

• 39:11Speaker 07

  Thank you.

• 39:12Speaker 09

  Nice to see you.

• 39:13Speaker 07

  Angry marriage? That's not what we... Like, I was thinking, "Oh, where's she going with this?"

• 39:21Speaker 05

  Angry marriages? We don't have an angry marriage. What in the world is she talking about? I'm stunned.

• 39:28Speaker 09

  They are what I am assuming to be an angry marriage. What kind of advice would you have for them?

• 39:34Speaker 05

  We're on live television. This isn't a local show in LA or Seattle. This is the real thing. The biggest morning show in history. So here I am, the camera's staring at me, and someone's talking about our angry marriage, and then explaining that we're there because we need help.

• 40:02Speaker 07

  They characterized us as having a certain kind of marriage and how to fix it by going to see this therapist who was onstage with us. And so I had a very horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach, which told me, uh-oh, something bad is happening. And I'm in the middle of something bad and I can't get out. I'm captive. I remember swallowing and feeling like I couldn't really speak. I mean, my body felt paralyzed. I felt just sick inside and scared because I didn't know what they were going to say next.

• 40:47Speaker 06

  I was nervous for my parents, like, how, what are they going to say? And very aware that this did not probably feel good to my parents.

• 41:02Speaker 09

  Have you all fought a lot during your 21-year marriage?

• 41:07Speaker 05

  From time to time, I think there were periods when you fight a lot. And so we've had periods that have been a little tense.

• 41:14Speaker 07

  We were very close. We communicated well. We respected each other. We understood each other. We felt that we were compassionate towards each other. I had so much admiration for Charles and what he did. And I think that he felt the same way about me.

• 41:37Speaker 10

  What is really going on in this angry marriage or in any other? There is an invisible anger here, an invisible conflict.

• 41:44Speaker 07

  With no interviews about us, she analyzed us as a therapist. And the audience knew that she was a therapist. So she had this power over us. It was terrible. The whole thing was so terrible.

• 42:07Speaker 09

  You know, let me just talk to the Krauses if I could and you all stand by for a moment. You all say that the major source of your disagreements has pretty much been finances. Is that correct?

• 42:17Speaker 05

  The financial problems we had had vanished. This was the most secure time we'd had ever. At that point, 22 years of marriage.

• 42:27Speaker 07

  We were happy. We were settled. A while back, we had purchased a home. We really were happy with it. It was a good time for us. Really good. I kept wondering when Katie was going to ask me about parenting skills and child development issues, which is what I thought was going to happen.

• 42:49Speaker 05

  Kirk began talking about we're a couple who invites the kids to watch us while we're having an argument.

• 42:57Speaker 09

  Your philosophy, if I understand it correctly, has been to include your children. You also actually sort of air your grievances and to go ahead and fight in front of the kids. Is that right?

• 43:08Speaker 11

  Well, not exactly.

• 43:09Speaker 05

  That's ridiculous. We would never do anything like that.

• 43:12Speaker 06

  My mom was like, um, you know, no, not that. That's not exactly how it is. And I was like, yes.

• 43:18Speaker 11

  When the kids were very little, we felt that it was very important to try to not argue in front of them because I think that's pretty scary for little kids to see their mom and dad fight, especially because they think that everything might be...

• 43:32Speaker 09

  Is their fault.

• 43:33Speaker 11

  Exactly.

• 43:34Speaker 07

  I felt like saying, lady, you're off the wall. You don't know what you're talking about. But I didn't. I just kept it pretty mild and I was appropriate in what I said. I wish I could have said more, but I was like frozen. I could barely speak.

• 43:50Speaker 11

  You know, as the kids have gotten older, we have, you know, let them see us discuss different things and we think that that's kind of a good role model to allow them to see us kind of working things out through discussion.

• 44:03Speaker 05

  I was so upset, I actually thought about storming off in front of all the viewers across America. I didn't quite know what to do. I was baffled by it. It's important not to deny that we fight sometimes, especially when the kids were younger, and try to pretend that doesn't happen because kids can hear that and they know that something's going on. And we felt always that it has been important to really discuss that, to let the kids know that we can go through a fight and then come out the other end and be stronger for it.

• 44:36Speaker 05

  I was looking for the next verbal attack, in a sense, or description that was inaccurate. Trying to figure out how to respond to it.

• 44:44Speaker 06

  But also really clear that like, you don't then want to come across as a really angry person.

• 44:51Speaker 05

  It was like a chess game while we were on the air. You can't make this move, you can't make that move.

• 44:55Speaker 09

  Dr. Maslin, have the Krauses been reasonable and appropriate in terms of their disagreements and exposing their children to their arguments?

• 45:03Speaker 07

  I just felt an onslaught. I mean, I just felt kind of pummeled by what was going on.

• 45:10Speaker 10

  It seems to me it informed the Krauses. It let them know, uh-oh, we're doing something that may not be appropriate for a small child.

• 45:17Speaker 07

  It was as if, you know, she was throwing baseballs at us. And that's really what she was doing. Yeah, I have, I really don't like her.

• 45:27Speaker 06

  I felt sad for my parents because I knew like how exciting this was for them and how special. And I had a sense like, ooh, I don't think this is going how they want it to go. And this is not how they want to be depicted and not how I would want them to be depicted.

• 45:48Speaker 05

  They're talking about us and talking about us. And then they interview Rebecca.

• 45:53Speaker 06

  I both wanted to defend my parents. I felt protective. I felt a little kind of in shock and not sure how to weigh what was happening.

• 46:11Speaker 09

  What do you think about that, Rebecca? Do you appreciate the fact that there have been times when your parents have had disagreements in front of you? So you have a realistic understanding of what marriage is all about?

• 46:23Speaker 12

  Um, well, I wouldn't say that they, if they're fighting, they'll come and bring it right in front of me just so I can see. But yeah, that they acknowledge that arguing is a natural part of any relationship.

• 46:33Speaker 07

  I think I always feel protective of my children. And listening to Rebecca, I'm thinking, she really held her own. What a great kid.

• 46:42Speaker 05

  So Kerik responds to her. But I understand, Rebecca, that when you were 18 months old...

• 46:49Speaker 09

  You stood between your parents when they were fighting so that they'd stop fighting.

• 46:54Speaker 12

  I think it can be really scary for little kids and even for older kids. And there were probably times when I would just be, you know, take it somewhere else.

• 47:03Speaker 05

  This was completely a misrepresentation of what Linda had told the interviewer.

• 47:08Speaker 06

  No, my parents didn't actually try to seek us out to argue in front of us. That's not accurate.

• 47:14Speaker 05

  And it was a completely different set of circumstances.

• 47:17Speaker 07

  They did twist that.

• 47:19Speaker 05

  So Kurt said, do you think there's going to be any negative repercussions for Rebecca or Danielle as they get married after witnessing?

• 47:29Speaker 07

  An angry marriage? Oh, my gosh. I mean, how could they ask this stupid question of is coming in between your parents at 18 months old to stop them from arguing going to impact you in your marriage and later life? Like, what? Like, where is she going with that? What is her brain doing? Like, how could she say something so stupid?

• 47:55Speaker 06

  At that point, I was feeling kind of annoyed. Kind of felt like they were using me, kind of making a spectacle of like, oh, yeah, how will this person be?

• 48:05Speaker 10

  I think that Rebecca will be well-served if she can really think about what the issues might be. For example, I think this is a frightened couple. And I think when you can say that, you can really break the bond of an angry marriage, and it won't be a burden that you have to carry.

• 48:20Speaker 05

  Man, was I upset when I started to hear that. I mean, they were not just talking about the family in general or Linda and me. They were talking about our kids.

• 48:30Speaker 06

  Felt like I was being used for the narrative that they were trying to kind of spin.

• 48:38Speaker 05

  They'd put one of our kids on television and were telling the world that they might be screwed up because of the way they were being parented.

• 48:47Speaker 07

  She didn't know us. We were strangers to her. And she just had a hell of a lot of nerve and chutzpah.

• 48:56Speaker 09

  Lyndon Charles Kraus, I think you better spend some more time with Dr. Maslin after we go to a commercial break. Thank you so much for talking with us about something that I know is a highly personal subject, so thank you. Rebecca?

• 49:06Speaker 05

  The segment is about over, and Kirk is saying, "By the way, not only does the psychologist have a book out about angry marriages, but several segments, like the one we're on, are going to be packaged and sold by The Today Show." And she actually does a commercial for this package. She says, "Get out your Visa card, and here's a number. It's on the bottom of your screen."

• 49:36Speaker 09

  By the way, we're making this series available on videocassette. For a copy, you can call 1-800-420-2626.

• 49:43Speaker 05

  We're going to be part of a package about angry marriage? Oh, man, was I upset. Well, the segment ends. Kirk walks us out back away from the studio. I don't know if she did that normally, but I think she could sense that we were so upset. And the second we knew that we were in private, not on the air, we started to complain loudly.

• 50:12Speaker 07

  Why did you do that? You tricked us. We didn't know what you were going to say on the air. I wanted to make them feel really guilty and really bad about what they did to us, because they knew it. It's not like they were innocent. They had an agenda. They had a topic for the show that they were then going to sell as a part of a package deal with three other similar shows and on a similar topic.

• 50:41Speaker 06

  And after, when it was all over, and my parents were voicing their feelings and expressing some of their anger about what happened, there was a part of me that was like, "Oh, my God, like, here they were, just depicted as an angry couple, and now here they are, feeling really angry. This is not good," and kind of wanting to shrink a little, just sort of like, "Oh, can we just go now, please?"

• 51:10Speaker 05

  I was so upset. I didn't know whether I was about to burst into tears. I was just, or scream, or do something. We're going to be appearing endlessly in people's living rooms as the angry couple who were frightened.

• 51:24Speaker 07

  I was just thinking about, everybody who's watching this, who knows us, is going to see us being made fools of on national television. I was just terribly embarrassed.

• 51:36Speaker 05

  We told everybody about the show. We were going to be on the Today Show. That was going to be like the feather in the cap, and they were watching us look like idiots. I couldn't help thinking, as we flew back, that I'd have to face everybody.

• 51:58Glynn Washington?

  Now, the Krauses, they came home to a whirlwind of questions and had a bit of explaining to do to their family, their friends, their associates. But we're happy to report, with the help of a lawyer, Charles was able to have their segment removed from the video package. But, the big question remains: if they did not have an angry marriage, what kind of marriage do Linda and Charles have?

• 52:23Speaker 07

  Bowen, your questions to us, you asked, did we have a happy marriage? And I think that the term happy marriage is something that comes out of magazines or self-help columns. It's not about being happy, it's about other things, the things that we mentioned. And I think that, you know, we don't have an angry marriage, and we're not a frightened couple. We're just a regular couple. We have a regular marriage, a very loving marriage, a very solid and stable marriage. So that's what I wished I could have said.

• 52:58Speaker 05

  Over 52 years, you know, you relax, you become loving best friends who share a family. But this really, I think, really caused us to look at how great our relationship is. That was the positive thing. Thank you, Today Show.

• 53:27Glynn Washington?

  A huge thank you to Charles, Linda, and Rebecca Kraus for sharing your story at the Snap. As always, this story is of Kraus's experience and their views and opinions remain their own. You can find all things Charles the Clown, including videos, songs, magic tricks, puppet routines, and even book Charles for your next event, all at the link on our website, snapjudgment.org. Dr. Bonnie Maslin, and the Today Show did not respond to our request for comment about this story. The piece was scored by Dirk Swartzoff, was edited by Regina Berriaco, and Anna Sussman, was produced by Bo Walsh.

• 54:12Glynn Washington?

  Now, if you missed even a moment, know that an entire world of Snap storytelling awaits. In fact, we recently dropped a brand-new series diving into the world of incarcerated woman firefighters battling the flames in California. It's hosted by our own Anna Sussman. It's called Fire Escape on podcast platforms everywhere right now.

• 54:33Glynn Washington?

  KQED in San Francisco is Snap's Orbiting Hall of Justice on Team Snap. The union representatives, producers, artists, editors, and engineers are members of the National Association of Broadcast Employees and Technicians, Communications Workers of America, AFL-CIL Local 51. Snap is brought to you by the team that loves the circus. Except for the uber-producer, Mr. Mark Ristich, he's jealous of the clowns. Now, there's Nancy Lopez, Pat Massey Miller, Anna Sussman, Renzo Goryo, John Facile, Shayna Shealy, Taylor Decot, Flo Wiley, Bo Walsh, Marissa Dodge, David Exame, and Regina Berriaco. Understand, this is not the news. No way is

• 55:17Glynn Washington?

  this the news. In fact, the Mad Daddy can make you jump, jump, right after the Daddy Mac makes you jump, jump. And you'd still not be as far away from the news as this is, but this is PRX.

• 55:47Speaker 13

  This show is supported by Odoo. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at O D O O dot com. That's O D O O dot com.