Spoon & Rusty Nail

It was all they had. A spoon and a rusty nail. But for the young Uyghur men trapped in a cell, it meant… escape. Thank you, Hashim, for sharing your story with us. This episode was reported in partnership with Coda Story. https://www.codastory.com/ Reported by Isobel Cockerell of Coda Story. Produced by Isobel Cockerell and John Fecile. Original score by Renzo Gorrio. English translation for Hashim by Ezra. Artwork by Teo Ducot. Season 16 - Episode 5 Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices https://dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:08Speaker 00

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• 0:45Glynn Washington?

  I am the older brother. There's older kids everywhere like to say, "I was the boss." So when I decided I had to leave the wacky religious cult we were raised in in my late teens, after the smoke cleared, my brother abandoned the cult as well. Later, I started school at Grand Valley State University. My brother immediately enrolled at Grand Valley State University. There, I stumbled across an incredible program that sent me to rural Japan for a year, all expenses paid. But a while later, my brother attended the same program right after I did.

• 1:27Glynn Washington?

  Later, I decided I wanted to live and work in Asia for a few years. My brother reached the exact same conclusion for himself. And after a while, I planned to return back to the States. But this time, my brother decided, "No." No, instead, he was gonna move from rural Japan to big-city Tokyo. Neon lights, fancy people, nightlife. I hugged him,

• 1:57Glynn Washington?

  wished him good luck before flying back alone on the jet plane.

• 2:03Glynn Washington?

  This is why I wasn't there when he had a mental breakdown.

• 2:13Glynn Washington?

  On the streets of a foreign city, a city he didn't know that didn't know him. This is why I never knew he had been locked up for ranting, wild-eyed on the street. And this is why his new friends didn't know to get in touch with me. And when I consider what he was doing there in the first place, thousands of miles from home, thousands of miles from help, after everything had happened, I can't but wonder if if I was a good brother to my brother.

• 2:56Glynn Washington?

  Because in the end, like all little brothers, he followed me.

• 3:13Glynn Washington?

  Today on Snap Judgment, another brother's story of a sort. We proudly present The Spoon and Rusty Nail. My name is Glynn Washington. I thought I was my brother's keeper. When you're listening to Snap Judgment.

• 3:47Speaker 03

  At Radiolab, we love nothing more than nerding out about science, neuroscience, chemistry.

• 3:54Speaker 04

  But, but, we do also like to get into other kinds of stories. Stories about policing or

• 3:59Speaker 03

  Politics.

• 4:00Speaker 04

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• 4:01Speaker 04

  Sex. Of bugs.

• 4:03Speaker 03

  Regardless of whether we're looking at science or not-science, we bring a rigorous curiosity to get you the answers.

• 4:10Speaker 04

  And hopefully make you see the world anew.

• 4:12Speaker 03

  Radiolab, adventures on the edge of what we think we know.

• 4:16Speaker 04

  Wherever you get your podcasts.

• 4:25Glynn Washington?

  Welcome back to Snap Judgment. We began in the middle of the 2010s. China began rounding up hundreds of thousands of people, possibly a million or more. Uighurs, members of an ethnic Muslim minority, flagged them as potential terrorists and sending them to massive detention centers. We know this mostly from brave people who made it out to tell the tale. But even attempting to escape can land you in a much worse position than you started.

• 4:55Glynn Washington?

  The day on our show, one young man tries anyway. Isabel Cockrell, from Coda Story, has a tale. Snap Judgment.

• 5:20Speaker 05

  When Hashim was 16 years old and living in Xinjiang, China, his favorite TV show was a Turkish telenovela that he watched with his mom.

• 5:30Speaker 06

  I mean, I knew it was just a TV show. But I started to wonder whether I might be able to live like them too.

• 5:38Speaker 05

  The show was called Adonali.

• 5:44Speaker 05

  It was about a police officer turned vigilante who takes down corrupt cops.

• 5:53Speaker 06

  He helps people who are being unfairly persecuted by the police. And at the very end, he exposes this big villain among the police.

• 6:04Speaker 06

  It kind of impacted me.

• 6:08Speaker 05

  The soap felt worlds away from Hashim's daily life in northwest China. This was 2014, and all over Hashim's hometown, police checkpoints were springing out of nowhere.

• 6:23Speaker 06

  The police would check your ID, ask where you've been and what you had been up to, and just make you feel really uncomfortable.

• 6:35Speaker 06

  It was painful. You just never felt at ease, even in your own neighborhood.

• 6:42Speaker 05

  Haxim's friends were starting to disappear. After the police raided his boxing gym, Haxim began to worry about his mother.

• 6:52Speaker 06

  As a young man, I was a target. They were starting to arrest us more. I realized I was becoming a burden for her just by being there. So I decided that I should leave. I wanted a full life, not this half-life.

• 7:16Speaker 05

  He felt there was no other way but to get out of China. The Chinese government doesn't allow most Uighurs to travel or have passports. So that left Haxim with only one choice. He packed up a few things, said nothing to his mother.

• 7:36Speaker 06

  I knew that if I told her about my plans, she would tell me not to go. So I didn't tell her, thinking once I was gone, then she could hear about it.

• 7:50Speaker 05

  He traveled to a border town near Vietnam, where he contacted a group of human smugglers.

• 7:58Speaker 06

  You know, like a Toyota? Those normally carry five or six people at most, but the smugglers will manage to squeeze fifteen people inside. They will pack everyone in and drive extremely fast. At one point, I was sitting in the front seat, next to the driver, and I watched this speedometer, which never dipped below 60 miles an hour.

• 8:19Speaker 05

  The car bounced along twisty dirt roads, navigating steep drops and treacherous passes through the jungle.

• 8:28Speaker 06

  You had this feeling that no one had ever passed through this place before, as if you're the first person in the world to go through here in a car.

• 8:38Speaker 05

  Haxim was taking an infamous route that traffics goods and people through Vietnam, then Cambodia, Thailand, and on to Malaysia.

• 8:46Speaker 06

  They call it the smugglers' road. I never heard anyone call it anything else. It works like a relay system. Smugglers in one country hand you to the smugglers in the next country.

• 8:59Speaker 05

  They'd nearly made it through Thailand. But when they reached the border with Malaysia, the car suddenly stopped. Hashim and his fellow passengers stepped out into a clearing in the jungle, already full of people, men, women, children.

• 9:17Speaker 06

  There were 73 of us, young and old. And we decided to surrender ourselves to the police.

• 9:23Speaker 05

  There's this big rumor flying around that if you handed yourself into the Thai police, they'd send you straight on to Turkey.

• 9:31Speaker 06

  We were ready to believe anything. So we voluntarily handed ourselves over, believing they would send us to Turkey in a few weeks.

• 9:41Speaker 05

  They're quickly arrested. The women and children are taken one way. Hashim and the other men are taken to a detention center.

• 9:52Speaker 06

  I mean, at that moment, we were convinced it was just going to be only 15 days there. But 15 days passed and nothing happened.

• 10:03Speaker 06

  Then one month, two, and we began thinking, this plan is not working out.

• 10:12Speaker 05

  Hashim is living in a small, narrow cell with a dozen other guys. They're all crammed in on top of each other, monitored by cameras 24/7. One of them, a man named Mohammed, was on the car journey with him.

• 10:26Speaker 06

  Mohammed was older than me. And he tried to lift my spirits if he saw that I was feeling low. He would say, "Hanging there." And whenever he did that, it felt like a weight lifting off my shoulders.

• 10:43Speaker 05

  Mohammed had fled with his wife and children, and he and Hashim bond over being apart from their families.

• 10:52Speaker 06

  I was in a pretty bad place mentally after running away from my parents. He consoled me and made me feel better. He said, "My little brother,

• 11:04Speaker 06

  now that we've met each other, let's just be like family with one another."

• 11:13Speaker 07

  "Allah'ın sorumuzda, kumayın, işlerimizde. İnsanlar bizim yerden kıpıl almadı, etrafta."

• 11:18Speaker 06

  "Aslında, biz de orada durduk ve hiç biri bizi yardım etmez." "Biz de kuzey yaşamımızın rutinine geçtik." "Biz zamanımızı okuyoruz, yemiyoruz, onlar bize veren yemekler alıyoruz, konuşuyoruz ve Kuranı okuyoruz."

• 11:38Speaker 06

  "Ama biz de endişeliyiz." "Onlar bizimizi Çin'a geri gönderiyor." "İşlerimiz bu durumda."

• 11:49Speaker 06

  "Kuzey güneşi yok, aramızda da aramızda da aramızda da aramızda da aramızda da aramızda da." "İşte o kadar uzun bir saat veya iki saat geçer."

• 11:58Speaker 06

  "Biz de döndük." "Eğer kuzeydeki insanlar uyuyor olsaydı, ortada boş olurdu."

• 12:09Speaker 06

  "Bilgilerimiz de aynı fikirleri düşünüyor." "Bu benim yaşamı mı?" "Bir zaman da dışarıda yaşamı mı hissettiğimi mi hissettiğimi mi?" "Oradan kaçabileceğimi mi düşünüyorum?" "Kuzey'den yürüyeceğimi mi hissettiğimi mi?" "Bu benim duyduğum en önemli his."

• 12:37Speaker 06

  "Bizi her gün yemek veren kuvvetlerin içindeki bu plastik kuvvetler geldi." "Onları dışarı çıkarmayız." "Bunlarla birlikte bu kuvvetleri uzak tutuyoruz ve bir arama kavram yapıyoruz." "Kuzeydeki kavuğunun üstünde bir küçük kışkan var." "Dış dünyayı bir bakabilirsin." "Kavuğunu kavuğunun kavuğunun kırılmasından uzak tutuyoruz." "Kavuğunun üstünden düşüyoruz ve kışkırtıyoruz." "Kışkırtırdığımızda kışkırtırdığımızda kışkırtırdığımızda." "Dışarıda bakarsak, Thailanda parada gibi görünüyor." "Tüm yılın her yerde uyku, biraz da güzeldi." "Bir şeyi bu uyku gibi görmemişti."

• 13:22Speaker 06

  We would gaze out day and night.

• 13:27Speaker 06

  After seeing all that green, our desire to go outside became unbearable.

• 13:39Speaker 06

  It gradually dawned on us that we were not going to get out.

• 13:44Speaker 06

  At least, not without Allah's help.

• 14:02Glynn Washington?

  When Snap returns, Hashim and his cellmates take the only way out there is. Stay tuned.

• 14:33Glynn Washington?

  Welcome back to Snap Judgment. The last we left Hashim, he and a dozen other Uighur cellmates were languishing in a Thai jail cell. Almost a year had passed.

• 14:49Speaker 06

  If we didn't make a run for it, there would be no other way to save ourselves.

• 14:57Speaker 06

  It was the only thing on our mind. Escaping became our main priority.

• 15:03Speaker 05

  Hashim tries to talk to Mohammed, his spiritual big brother, who he'd met at the beginning of his journey, whose wife and kids were also in Thailand, trapped in a different jail.

• 15:13Speaker 06

  So I told him,

• 15:16Speaker 06

  "Big brother, I want to run away. What do you think?" He told me to go ahead, to do it. But since he had his own family, he couldn't think about escaping himself.

• 15:28Speaker 05

  Harshim and the other guys are determined, and they don't have to wait long for their opportunity, because there is already a hole in the roof of their cell.

• 15:37Speaker 06

  Yeah, it was in the ceiling of the restroom.

• 15:40Speaker 05

  They notice water dripping from the ceiling, and there, above the toilet, a small hole. It had apparently been made by prisoners who'd been in the cell before.

• 15:52Speaker 06

  It was still open, but it wasn't possible for a person to fit through there. So we made it a little wider and easier to get through.

• 16:00Speaker 05

  The plan is to use just their hands and carefully scrape away the crumbling cement. They weave together a long rope with plastic bags and clothes and move quickly.

• 16:11Speaker 06

  Our cell was on the second floor.

• 16:15Speaker 06

  Using the ropes, we climbed down.

• 16:20Speaker 06

  Well, when the first guy went down the side of the building, one of the officers saw him.

• 16:26Speaker 06

  They came straight to our cell to investigate.

• 16:30Speaker 05

  The very first personnel manages miraculously to get away. But a few of Harshim's cellmates are beaten by the guards, and they find the hole.

• 16:40Speaker 06

  Yes, they transferred us to a new building in order to repair the ceiling.

• 16:45Speaker 05

  This new detention center is even more remote, surrounded by mountains and jungle. But it is closer to Malaysia, just a mile from the border. Malaysia has always been Harshim's goal. From there, he can get safe passage to Turkey.

• 17:02Speaker 06

  The guards started threatening that they would send us back to China.

• 17:08Speaker 06

  Every time they said "China", we felt dread.

• 17:12Speaker 05

  Security seems lower here. Harshim realizes that if they're going to mount another escape attempt, this is the place, and it needs to happen now.

• 17:23Speaker 06

  The thing about Thailand is, because it's so hot, the walls are very thin.

• 17:30Speaker 06

  One day, one of the guys found an old nail in the cell, about 10 centimeters long.

• 17:39Speaker 06

  He scratched the wall a little with that nail and realized how soft the cement was.

• 17:44Speaker 05

  There's a sort of ringleader among the Uighurs, a young guy nicknamed Imam, because he leads their prayer sessions.

• 17:52Speaker 06

  The Imam saw how easily the wall crumbled. He scratched it a few more times and the wall just started coming away. And so he thought,

• 18:03Speaker 06

  "Maybe we could make a hole in the wall."

• 18:08Speaker 05

  There are cameras dotted around the cell, but no camera is watching the bathroom area.

• 18:16Speaker 06

  With the Imam, we start brainstorming. Like, if we gouged the hole from the side of the restaurant, would that work? Could we make it work? After we found the nail, we also managed to keep back a spoon from meal times.

• 18:35Speaker 06

  They give us toothbrushes in there. So we took three toothbrushes and bound them firmly to the nail with string, with the nail tip stuck out, so that we could use it to dig.

• 18:49Speaker 06

  As for the spoon, the useful part was actually the handle, like the end of it. That prison had a brick floor, so we sharpened the spoon handle using the ground to make a sort of blade to carve the wall.

• 19:05Speaker 06

  One by one, we slip into the bathroom and start scraping at the wall. So we begin by carving a kind of outline, making a hole wide enough for one person. We dug from the inside, chipping away. And then, we take a quick shower and come out, trying not to raise any suspicion.

• 19:25Speaker 05

  This escape attempt will be much more methodical, deliberate. And this time, Mohammed, who didn't want to join in the last escape he's into. He had recently learned that his wife and kids had been released and were safely in Turkey.

• 19:41Speaker 06

  By that time, we'd all decided that it was time to escape.

• 19:47Speaker 05

  It takes Hashim and his cellmates three days to make the hole big enough.

• 19:52Speaker 06

  By the end of all those hours, my hands were all cut up and scarred.

• 19:57Speaker 05

  Then, a difficult decision: who should climb out first?

• 20:04Speaker 06

  There were 12 of us. Of the 12, there was the Imam, and then there was a man who was much older than the rest of us. We felt that those two should have priority, along with another older guy, who had fallen over in the restroom and hurt his knee. It was agreed, those three would get out first. That left nine of us.

• 20:27Speaker 06

  We drew lots by writing numbers on a piece of paper. Whichever number we drew, that would be our turn to get out.

• 20:37Speaker 06

  We put the papers in the pile in the middle, turned them over, and drew them out one by one to see what number we had. Mine was number four.

• 20:54Speaker 06

  My heart started pounding like crazy. I would be one of the first to go out. One, two, three, and then my turn. I couldn't shake off the anxiety, knowing that the police would brutally beat up anyone who tried to escape again.

• 21:14Speaker 06

  Another part of me was happy that I got number four, but my brother Mohammed got 11 or 12. 11, I think it was.

• 21:25Speaker 05

  After all they had been through together, Mohammed has become so important to Hashim. He doesn't want to do this without him.

• 21:34Speaker 06

  Before drawing lots, Mohammed and I agreed we would stay together as we ran through the jungle. We had talked about that. But after pulling lots, we knew that would be impossible.

• 21:49Speaker 05

  They would run early the next morning, before the sun came up.

• 21:53Speaker 06

  It was impossible to sleep that evening.

• 21:59Speaker 06

  I was so anxious, wondering if the police would catch us. And if they did, how they would punish us. Would they beat us? I tried to plan for every possible scenario, thinking, if this happens, I'll run that way. If I can just get past this bit, I'll be able to do that, and so on.

• 22:19Speaker 06

  We got up according to our lot numbers. So number 1 woke up first, then number 2, and so on.

• 22:27Speaker 05

  They had gouged the wall out, except for the very last thin layer of plaster, so that from the outside, the wall looked intact. Carefully, quietly, they push away this last thin layer, and the outside air rushes in.

• 22:45Speaker 06

  Two or three people stood ready to help me through when I entered the hole.

• 22:50Speaker 05

  There's barbed wire right beneath them. They throw blankets over it, so they won't get cut up. Then, using a makeshift rope, Hashim pulls himself down the side of the building and jumps into the yard.

• 23:01Speaker 06

  After me, the guys kept coming one after another. After 3 or 4 minutes, most of us were out of the hole.

• 23:16Speaker 06

  The thing about this detention center is that it's kind of half-constructed. They hadn't even finished building this surveillance tower. There was a gate, but they had left that unlocked.

• 23:32Speaker 06

  Once 5 or 6 of us got out, we all ran out of the compound. Then, we crossed to the other side of the road and scattered.

• 23:41Speaker 05

  Mohammed isn't with him, but Hashim doesn't have time to look for him. The guards are chasing them now. A few of the Uighur guys were a bit too noisy. Hashim runs into the jungle, towards Malaysia.

• 23:54Speaker 06

  We go deep into the jungle, and after a while, 9 of us manage to find each other.

• 23:59Speaker 05

  Mohammed isn't among them.

• 24:01Speaker 06

  We quickly realized we can't move with a group this size. So, two go one way and three of us, me and two other guys, go the other. And a group of four go in a third direction.

• 24:20Speaker 06

  We walk and we walk and it starts to rain very hard.

• 24:27Speaker 06

  We continue pushing forward through the rain until we were pretty far away from the prison.

• 24:34Speaker 06

  We're making progress.

• 24:37Speaker 06

  It had been around 2 or 3 in the morning when we escaped. And as we walked through the jungle, the sun starts to rise.

• 24:46Speaker 06

  Since it would be so dangerous to move in the sunlight, we quickly gather up some grass and branches and go to sleep.

• 24:56Speaker 05

  They lay low all the next day until dusk.

• 25:01Speaker 06

  That jungle was so muddy and we had no shoes, so we would get all kinds of splinters in our feet. And there was this particularly spiny plant which would just cut us. Our feet were all ripped up and raw.

• 25:17Speaker 05

  It's only a mile to Malaysia, true, but through a jungle and over a mountain range with no maps, no compass. And all Harshim has to survive on are a couple of biscuits and dates he'd stashed from the prison.

• 25:35Speaker 06

  We ate one date in the morning, one at noon, and one in the evening. It was always raining in the jungle, so we were able to drink the rainwater.

• 25:46Speaker 06

  We slept during the days, keeping still, and then would get going again after dark.

• 25:54Speaker 06

  One night, the police either heard us or someone told them our whereabouts. Little by little, torch beams and lights appear through the trees. Dog's barks gets louder. I can hear them around me, those barks are definitely loud.

• 26:12Speaker 05

  Hashim and his two friends scramble up the side of the mountain.

• 26:16Speaker 06

  I'm consumed with panic and fear.

• 26:21Speaker 06

  We manage to climb up higher and then the sun begins to rise. And we just lie down on the jungle floor and stay as quiet and still as we can.

• 26:34Speaker 06

  With the police all around us, we think only Allah can help us now. We're totally consumed by fear.

• 26:47Speaker 06

  What if they caught us? What would we even say if they did?

• 26:51Speaker 05

  Slowly, finally, the voices of the police and the dogs barking fade away.

• 26:56Speaker 06

  We were sure we'd get arrested there.

• 27:01Speaker 06

  It's basically a miracle we got through that night.

• 27:06Speaker 05

  Five days, that's how long they spend in the jungle before reaching the border. Once they get there, they see a high barbed wire fence that they'll have to jump.

• 27:17Speaker 06

  As we jumped the fence into Malaysia,

• 27:21Speaker 06

  one of my friends was caught by the barbed wire and he got stuck.

• 27:28Speaker 06

  We couldn't see him because it was dark, so we left him behind.

• 27:36Speaker 06

  After crossing the border, our mood lifted, all the tiredness draining out of our bodies.

• 27:48Speaker 05

  Hashim lives in Istanbul now. I think when we met last time, you were thinking about getting married and I wondered what's going on in your life right now.

• 28:02Speaker 06

  Yes, I did get married. I had a kid. I am very happy now. I was alone before, now there are three of us.

• 28:12Speaker 05

  So how's Mohammed Hashim? Have you spoken to him recently?

• 28:20Speaker 05

  When Hashim was in Malaysia, he saw a Thai news story detailing their escape, announcing how many had made it, how many were still being held captive.

• 28:34Speaker 06

  That's when I learned that my brother Mohammed didn't make it.

• 28:43Speaker 05

  So Hashim reached out to a group of Rohingya at the Thai detention center, who he knew had a contraband cellphone, and they shared their phone with Mohammed.

• 28:53Speaker 06

  After I got married, he'd ask me, "How's your family doing?"

• 28:59Speaker 06

  "How are your finances?" "What are you up to right now?"

• 29:06Speaker 06

  We'd talk regularly, as if everything was fine.

• 29:09Speaker 05

  Hashim learned that during the escape, as the guards were storming the cell, Mohammed was still inside. He had wanted to say a prayer before jumping out of the hole.

• 29:21Speaker 06

  He was praying, even though he had only two or three minutes to escape.

• 29:27Speaker 06

  He could have just not prayed.

• 29:30Speaker 06

  He must not have heard everyone was escaping, but he should have escaped. Even if he had to cut his prayer in half, he should have just got out.

• 29:44Speaker 06

  I felt great sorrow when I heard that he couldn't make it.

• 29:49Speaker 05

  After they first reconnected, Mohammed developed a problem in his stomach. The details are unclear.

• 29:57Speaker 06

  I don't have all the details, but this is what I heard from others. He himself never said he was sick. He never talked about that.

• 30:12Speaker 06

  That brother of mine has passed away. He died in Thailand.

• 30:27Speaker 06

  In prison, the one thing that comforted our hearts was hearing about Islamic history. Mohammed Aka would teach us about that, telling us how our ancestors endured all kinds of hardships. He would say, "Be patient. This is just how this road is for us."

• 30:51Glynn Washington?

  Hashem was one of 20 Uyghurs who tried to break out. He's one of 11 who made it. According to the Uyghur Rights Advocacy Project, at the time of this recording, 48 are still being held in Thailand.

• 31:08Speaker 06

  All I feel I can do is pray for them. But whenever I think of them, my heart breaks.

• 31:17Speaker 06

  Because we all slept so close together for three years. It bonded us, and we became such close friends.

• 31:28Speaker 06

  We had all left our parents, our relatives, our friends, our real brothers. And even though we started out as strangers, we all became brothers.

• 31:46Glynn Washington?

  Thank you, Hashem, for sharing your story with us. This episode was reported in partnership with Coda Story. English translation for Hashem was provided by Ezra. And I'd love to give proper credit and laud the Uyghur translators who helped us create this story. But they asked us to never use their names in order to protect their families. Original score was by Renzo Gorrio. It was reported by Isabel Cockrell of Coda Story. Produced by Isabel Cockrell and John Fasil.

• 32:29Glynn Washington?

  If you missed even a moment, know an entire world of Snap storytelling awaits. In fact, we recently dropped a brand-new series diving into the world of incarcerated women firefighters battling the flames in California, hosted by our own Anna Sussman. It's called "Fire Escape", on podcast platforms everywhere right now. KQD in San Francisco is Snap's Orbiting Hall of Justice. Snap has brought to you by the team that always finds a way out of no way. Except, of course, for the Uber producer, Mr. Mark Ristich. He likes to put stuff in the way. Now there's Nancy Lopez, Pat McSweeney Miller, Anna Sussman, Marlon Goryo, John Facile,

• 33:14Glynn Washington?

  Shayna Shealy, Tilda Cot, Flo Wiley, Bo Walsh, Marissa Dodge, David Exane, Regina Periaco.

• 33:30Glynn Washington?

  And this is not the news. No way is this the news. In fact, you could discover that for the want of a single rusty nail, the shoe was lost. For the want of a shoe, the horse was lost. For the want of the horse, the rider was lost. For the want of a rider, the battle was lost. For the want of the battle, the entire kingdom perished. All of this in front of your eyes while you sit there refusing to even lift a finger and you would still not be as far away from the news as this is. But this is... PRX.