Jenny Slate and the Flight to Varennes

Jenny Slate is a connoisseur of finer things. Ed invites her to revisit an epic failure on the part of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette as they attempt to flee revolution, yet cling to their superfluous lifestyle. Will they make it to the city of Varennes or lose their lavish heads in the process? Subscribe to the SNAFU YouTube channel: www.youtube.com/@SNAFUPod Buy the SNAFU book: www.snafu-book.com http://www.snafu-book.com/ See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Everyone says like, "I could never join a cult." Like, "I would never fall for that insane."

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  Oh, I would.

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  You would?

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  I really love friendly groups. I love cooking. I love it when people are like trying to help each other actualize their dreams. And I like it when people like are dedicated to each other. And a lot of times cults are like nonviolent, except I don't like having to be naked in a group of people. And I don't like having to do like oral sex to like the head of the cult.

• 0:28Speaker 00

  That is, that's in the cult bylaws.

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  There's usually some guy.

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  Halloween's almost here, and I've got plans. My first stop is Total Wine & More for cold beer, ready-to-drink cocktails, and a bottle of wine to share. And I know I'm getting the lowest prices. Get the fun started at Total Wine & More. Spirits are not sold in Virginia and North Carolina. Drink responsibly. Be 21.

• 2:07Speaker 00

  Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Snafu, the show about history's greatest screw-ups. I'm Ed Helms, and more specifically, this is a show where we look at mishaps from history and wonder, oh, what does this say about humanity? And I always bring along a very exciting guest. Today, I'm joined by one of my dear friends. She's an actress, a writer, a comedian. She's been in so many incredible shows and movies, like It's Borderline Annoying, just to name a few. Obvious Child, Zootopia, Gifted, Everything Everywhere All at Once, an Emmy nominee for Dying for Sex with Michelle Williams, an Oscar nominee for Marcel the Shell.

• 2:46Speaker 00

  She's the author of two fabulous books, Little Weirds and Life Form, and she recently launched her own podcast called I Need You Guys with Gabe Bleedman and Max Silvestri. Please welcome the amazing Jenny Slate.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  Hi, hi, Ed. Hello.

• 3:06Speaker 00

  We were neighbors for a short time.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  Big time.

• 3:08Speaker 00

  Here in Los Angeles.

• 3:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:10Speaker 00

  I've known you for a long, long time, but then, at some point in that, you also were our neighbor, and my family began to call you Kramer, because of your wacky interests.

• 3:20Speaker 01

  And also because it was like, there wasn't a lot keeping me out. You know, like Kramer's always kind of busting through the door with some sort of really interesting concept. I'm not sure I had those interesting concepts, but I was coming through the door with big, you know, big energy in my hair and really coming over a lot.

• 3:40Speaker 00

  And it was a full open-door policy for Kramer Slate to just come on in whenever she wanted. I miss those days.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  I do, too. I really do. And I will say that I feel that we're making up for it, as we were talking about earlier, but the fact that we now have become people who celebrate Thanksgiving together, not in Los Angeles at all, but it's just like something we do, and it's really, I love it so much. I just love it.

• 4:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, me, too. I'm very grateful for that.

• 4:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:10Speaker 00

  Well, we won't invite the world into our, too deeply into our private lives, but...

• 4:17Speaker 00

  Uh, I'm so excited for your podcast with Gabe and Max, who I also know and adore.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:23Speaker 00

  Obviously, it's a very crowded space now. I'm now in the fourth season of Snap Who. I'm like trying to box out everyone I can from also joining the podcast space because

• 4:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:34Speaker 00

  we need all the listeners we can get.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:36Speaker 00

  So what are you doing? You're horning in on this format. But also, congratulations, and I'm excited for you. And what is it?

• 4:45Speaker 01

  We, we have a joke that it's like, it's only, it took us only 16 years to finally do a podcast. It just took us so long. Like, every other comedian in the world has had a podcast for many years now. And we just like, I don't know, what can I say? We like to chill. But Gabe and Max and I, I don't know, 15 years ago, really started a stand-up show in New York. Uh, first it was in Manhattan at Rafifi in the East Village, and then it was in Williamsburg. And we finally got our act together to do what we kind of do on stage, just on a podcast, which is that like, on, in our stand-up show, we always started the stand-up show with a Q and A, like, before anyone had any questions about our material.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  We would just ask random questions, and it was really fun. And, um, so now, basically, our podcast is like, it's kind of like making our group chat live. Um, it's called I Need You Guys, because we don't live in the same places anymore, and we still talk every day, and we need each other. So we'll bring questions to each other about our lives, and then we have a friend, usually it's a comedian, come and answer like an adequate, adequate, adequate? It's like, I'm not reading copy. I don't need to, you know, miss, miss, misspeak. Um, like a question about etiquette.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  Etiquette.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  Etiquette.

• 6:02Speaker 00

  So just so our listeners know, this podcast is out.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  It is out.

• 6:06Speaker 00

  And you can, you can get into it right now.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's really, it's kind of like sitting at a dinner table with friends. It's just a nice, easy, funny, easy listen.

• 6:17Speaker 00

  All right, are you ready to Snap Who?

• 6:18Speaker 01

  I'm ready to Snap Who.

• 6:19Speaker 00

  Let's do it. We're gonna jump into this. We're gonna venture all the way back to 1791.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:25Speaker 00

  Uh, it was a tough year to be a French guy named Louis, especially. If you were Louis XVI, the French king. So today's topic is the French Revolution. Now, I'd love to cover the whole thing, but that would take at least 10 podcasts and like a gallon of espresso and a PhD in guillotine technology. So instead, we're going to just zoom in on this one really tiny, but absolutely bonkers episode. Within the French Revolution, the royal escape attempt that went spectacularly wrong. It's sneaky, it is suspenseful, and it turned out to be a massive turning point in the entire revolution.

• 7:10Speaker 00

  This is the flight to Varennes. Are you ready?

• 7:15Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah, man. This is so cool. I wasn't expecting to learn so much, and you know I love French stuff.

• 7:22Speaker 00

  What is it you like about French stuff?

• 7:24Speaker 01

  I love all the jewels that I just stole from the Louvre. I love the crown I got. I'm super bummed that I dropped that other crown, but I love like the necklaces and stuff.

• 7:37Speaker 00

  All right, a quick crash course on the French Revolution before we get to our main event here. It all started because France was basically broke, the peasants were starving, and the monarchy was still out there throwing lavish parties. Picture an episode of Succession where they all go to a rave in powdered wigs. So the French people were just finally like, enough. This is enough. And they stormed the Bastille, and they decided maybe government shouldn't be run exclusively by rich douchebags.

• 8:08Speaker 00

  Good, a good policy?

• 8:09Speaker 01

  I feel like that...

• 8:10Speaker 00

  I mean, have any rich douchebags like historically, have they, have any of them nailed it?

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Not that I can, I can currently think of. No one's coming to mind right now.

• 8:21Speaker 00

  It's rough.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:22Speaker 00

  It's rough out there for, for the populations run by rich douchebags.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  It's not great.

• 8:27Speaker 00

  We'll cut to a couple of years later and now, and the revolutionaries have taken power, and King Louis XVI, Marie Antoinette, and their kids are basically grounded. They're under house arrest in the Tuileries Palace in the heart of Paris. And the revolutionaries are frantically trying to reinvent their entire system of government, which is no small task. Marie Antoinette, of course, famous for the phrase, "Let them eat cake."

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Darn it.

• 8:56Speaker 00

  Which is a very rude thing to say when people are starving and they can't get can't get bread.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  I know, but I don't think she said that.

• 9:05Speaker 00

  She didn't.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  No.

• 9:05Speaker 00

  You're right.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  I read this book that says that she did not say that, you know, she didn't say that.

• 9:11Speaker 00

  She didn't say it.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  Yo, she didn't say that. If you're gonna come at me like that, like she did not say that. Like, check, check your facts.

• 9:18Speaker 00

  I'm so sorry. I was gonna be all smarty pants and be like, but she did it. And you jumped on that. And kudos to you for knowing that. It originally appeared in Jean Jacques Rousseau's Confessions, which he wrote in 1766. Marie Antoinette was 10 years old and she was living in Austria. So obviously, she didn't say it. So it's early 1791. This is before the revolution had gone full, just like guillotine chopping everybody's heads off. And France is now experimenting with this brand new idea, the constitutional monarchy, where the king will share power with the population. And spoiler alert, King

• 10:01Speaker 00

  Louis did not like this. He was not a fan. The people were rising up and he was feeling very threatened by all of this. So by June of that year, the revolutionaries were finishing up their shiny new constitution, codifying all of this. And King Louis, ever the people pleaser, was out there pretending to be totally chill about it. He was like, yeah, let's have parliament run things. I'll just be like a figurehead, a decorative monarch, a bit of a, like, just a human chandelier, if you will, hanging over France. And this, of course, is right after the actual American Revolution.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:39Speaker 00

  And it does, it just raises, I don't know, it raises this interesting philosophical question for me. Like oppressed people very often rise up at a certain, they reach a breaking point and they rise up. And then they either choose as the sort of American Revolution and the French Revolution. That option was democracy, or like a representative government, like down with these bully kings.

• 11:01Speaker 00

  Or the other option is an oppressed population will sort of like rise up and elevate a strong man who is essentially a king of sorts. And why do you think that happens? I think the strong man version is actually more common and it speaks to like something in the human condition. Are we just, is freedom too messy? Is it too complicated? Are we too scary?

• 11:23Speaker 01

  You know what I think it is? I mean, not to be like so self-serious, but I actually think it has to do with like fear and trauma. The American Revolution, it's like a lot of those people were like wealthy landowners who were like, we don't want King George, you know, like we want to do our own thing. They weren't really like we the people rising up. Like they were like wealthy, you know, and, and, and then they, they took like their education and their wealth and they like made, you know, a democracy. But like, if you're just like traumatized and frightened and you, you're starving, like of course you're going to be like, da da, and just like replace a bad dad with what seems like a good dad. Like, you know, just one thing at a time.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Let's just get this guy or, you know, I guess occasionally a lady, but it's kind of all, it's like always the men. Uh, get this guy out of here and, and like, I think that, I think new dad is actually going to be like nice dad, you know? I don't know. That's, that's my take on it, but you know, I'm a professional clown, not a historian. That's just how I feel.

• 12:25Speaker 00

  I think that's a very, very sharp take. Well, well said. King Louis, at this point, he's, uh, he's kind of, kind of freaking out and he's kind of stuck in the middle, pretending everything's fine and, and pretending like he has value and has power, but he's, he's seeing it all slip away. So he, and, and he's feeling threatened also. He's feeling like his, his life and his family are very much in danger now in this, in the middle of Paris. So he hatches this plan. They're going to slip out of Paris. They're going to meet up with loyal troops near the border and stage a royal comeback. But first they must escape Paris. And thus begins the flight to Varin.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  Wow. Okay, can I just ask, like, during this time when he's stuck in, when they're stuck in there, is he still, you know, having like three glazed gooses a day? You know what I mean? Like, is he still having those like crazy elaborate meals? And, you know, wearing, wearing, wearing the stuff? Just like doing all that stuff? Is he still just like, all procedures are still those like three hour baths or whatever? You know?

• 13:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, a three hour bath with three glazed gooses.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:38Speaker 00

  My sense of it, and, and keep in mind, I'm very much falling into the amateur historian category, but my sense of it is that this is a scaled back version of that. So in Versailles, it was a mess. Like, it was so decadent, the parties, all of the insanity. Leading up to this, there had been protest, march, where they actually grabbed the royal family and marched them to Paris. And this was a very humbling experience. And so, yes, they're still in a palace, they're still technically royalty, they're still trying to hash out this shared leadership idea, the constitutional monarchy. So they're still acting like a king and queen.

• 14:22Speaker 00

  And so I do think there are glazed gooses in the mix, and there are crowns and fancy attire, but it's not quite what it was very recently in Versailles. They've been humbled, and they're, they're now scared.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Okay, got it.

• 14:36Speaker 00

  So the plan they hatch is quite bold. It's, it's like total cloak and dagger stuff. Louis was planned to be disguised as a valet, Marie as a governess, and they would, they were posing as the entourage of this, of this fake Russian baron, and they would slip out of Paris in the dark of night, then, of course, link up with their loyal troops and spark a royal comeback. This is, in theory, a flawless plan, but in reality, it turned into a train wreck. Or, as we will soon see, a carriage wreck of sorts. This elaborate plan, it's very, like I said, it's cloak and dagger-y, it starts to fall apart immediately. The palace maid noticed the fa-

• 15:20Speaker 00

  Family packing and there it starts asking weird questions like what's going on? They have that detachment from reality where they still feel like they have to bring like crazy amounts of royal luggage and

• 15:32Speaker 01

  Oh my god, that situation where you're like so rich, you don't know how to do anything. It's like, just get out of here, man. Yeah, just don't pack a trunk. You don't need your like silver bugle or whatever and like all your pantaloons. Like just get out.

• 15:46Speaker 00

  I mean, the silver bugle might come in handy.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  You don't get a bedpan. You don't get a, what do they call it? A little, the thing they go to the bathroom. You don't get the chamber pot, nothing.

• 15:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, there you go. You would have been such a better Marie Antoinette.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 15:58Speaker 00

  This delays them like two, a day or two. And there are, as part of the plan, of course, there are loyal soldiers, you know, soldiers that are still loyal to the king that are supposed to meet up with them along the route and they've been stationed in these villages. But when the king isn't showing up, they're just these soldiers in these towns and that's raising questions. The peasantry is getting real antsy and like, what are all these soldiers doing here? This does not feel chill. It kind of feels like the National Guard like marching into like a normal city, like what people, people are upset. It upsets people.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  That would be really disconcerting and wrong and feel like maybe it's illegal or waiting for a judge to say, I don't know.

• 16:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, so, so that's the same vibe going on in the, in these villages. And that wasn't the only delay. So it's finally time to skedaddle. And now the commander of the palace guard has decided it's the perfect time for like an hours long chit chat with the king. Fun fact, the, the commander of the guards was none other than the Marquis de Lafayette, who played a huge role in the American Revolution and now he's back, he's back home. Yeah, this is from Hamilton.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh, I haven't actually seen Hamilton, but I guess I should know that just because of like history.

• 17:23Speaker 00

  You've never seen Hamilton?

• 17:25Speaker 01

  I don't, I just, I don't, I don't go to a lot of plays.

• 17:31Speaker 00

  This is over. This is over.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  I know. I know. I like, I don't know why I admitted that. I just, I swear to God, like I haven't, I don't think I've ever been to a Broadway.

• 17:42Speaker 00

  Are you serious? I'm, I am taking.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was supposed to go see Waiting for Godot like two weeks ago and our daughter got sick, so we didn't go.

• 17:51Speaker 00

  So you're still waiting to see Waiting for Godot?

• 17:53Speaker 01

  I don't know if he ever came.

• 17:55Speaker 00

  You're still waiting for him?

• 17:56Speaker 01

  I don't, I didn't know if they found him. But yeah, no, I just like for a while when I lived in New York and I was a student, I didn't have enough, like I don't have the extra money to go to Broadway.

• 18:05Speaker 00

  It takes time to do that stuff.

• 18:07Speaker 01

  I just gave up and then, um, yeah, I don't know.

• 18:10Speaker 00

  Anyway, the Marquis de Lafayette is played masterfully by D. V. Diggs.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  Oh, cool.

• 18:16Speaker 00

  The Marquis de Lafayette is a fascinating, he deserves his own podcast. He like basically went to America and was like, hey, George Washington, I'm here to help. I just think your whole cause is awesome. He was a major force in the American Revolution. Then he went back to France and now he's sympathetic with the revolutionaries in France and he's been put in charge of keeping an eye on King Louis. And of course, they have a very professional but fraught relationship because he's guarding him essentially from the mobs, but also from escaping or from, so anyway, they have a long chat, but it delays the escape even further.

• 18:55Speaker 00

  Now, despite all the delays, King Louis is still raring to go and they sneak out down a back staircase of the palace.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 19:07Speaker 00

  And here's where just the sort of like cartoon mistake, misdeeds begin. Like this is where it becomes like Keystone Cops.

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• 19:45Speaker 04

  The scariest part of Halloween isn't the full moon or a chainsaw starting up in the distance. It's running out of Reese's Cups. Because when you open the door to four princesses, six superheroes, and three Draculas all reaching for your Reese's Cups, things can get scary fast. Especially when you were kind of counting on some leftovers. So this Halloween, buy extra. Because your neighbor Jeff dressed like a kangaroo? That's scary enough. Running out of Reese's Cups doesn't need to be.

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  Oh, boy, this is tight. I knew I shouldn't have had that extra helping on mashed potatoes last night.

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  Uh-oh.

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• 21:16Speaker 05

  Halloween's almost here, and I've got plans. My first stop is Total Wine & More for cold beer, ready-to-drink cocktails, and a bottle of wine to share. And I know I'm getting the lowest prices. Get the fun started at Total Wine & More. Spirits are not sold in Virginia and North Carolina. Drink responsibly. B21.

• 21:32Speaker 00

  So the original plan had called for fast carriages, right? They would get into like a little clump of carriages and be on their way. But this did not sit well with Marie Antoinette. She wanted to keep the family together, which is understandable. If they got separated, it could get scary. But unfortunately, this also changed the entire journey because they're, they wound up in this enormous carriage. So the coach itself was a loner from Axel von Fersen the younger, who happened to be, this is debated, but many think he was actually Marie Antoinette's dashing Swedish lover.

• 22:11Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 22:12Speaker 00

  What is documented is he sent her tons of flowers over the years. We have an artistic rendering of Axel here. Let's take a gander at this guy.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  Let's see this guy.

• 22:20Speaker 00

  Ooh.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. Look at those peepers.

• 22:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, right?

• 22:24Speaker 01

  You mean, what? I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

• 22:30Speaker 00

  You're not buying it?

• 22:31Speaker 01

  What? I think the person that painted his picture did a pretty weird job. It looks like, he looks like, you know when sometimes people wear those George Washington masks? Like, like they have George Washington. You have your own face on the bottom and then you like put George Washington over your like, you know, where a raccoon mask would be? Those look like two different faces.

• 22:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, you're right. But what I do love about this, he's so smug. Like, he's so, he's like so smarmy and like, you can get like the sex appeal of someone like that.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 23:05Speaker 00

  You could get lost in those eyebrows.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  That's a look of placid, perverted, deliberate.

• 23:12Speaker 00

  Entitlement.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. He just does not care.

• 23:22Speaker 00

  This carriage was massive and extremely conspicuous. One historian called the paint job quite eye-catching.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 23:29Speaker 00

  Yellow and black.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 23:31Speaker 00

  Or gold and black. And there were three bodyguards, also dressed in jaunty clothes. Basically, in today's terms, this, this would be like a limousine painted like a bumblebee. This is kind of what I pictured. On top of the paint job, the carriage itself was so heavy that it required frequent stops to change horses.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 23:53Speaker 00

  And this is, this is where King Louis got himself into even more trouble because... King Louis believed that the people of Paris, obviously, were against him. The mobs were rallying, but he still thought that the, the, the country folk, the people out in the countryside were royalists and, and supported him. So he would actually get out and start chatting people up.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 24:16Speaker 00

  And just kind of like being totally transparent, like, what's up, everybody? It's your king, high five.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 24:24Speaker 00

  This was not, this was not smart.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  Mm-mm.

• 24:27Speaker 00

  And even when they were rolling along, apparently, he would like hang his head out the carriage window and just be like, what's up? It's me, your fabulous queen. He kind of felt like he was the Beatles in the 60s. And I'm just, I, I, I just, I don't know if this was savvy. This feels like ego getting in the way of, uh, good judgment.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  Hush, what a dum-dum. Like his, whoever were his, like, devoted handlers must have just been like, oh, my god, just try to keep him inside the thing.

• 24:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  Like, he doesn't get it. He doesn't really get it.

• 24:59Speaker 00

  No. I think there is something, like, when we see that a lot of these tech titans today, um, you know, that, that have so much wealth and so much power and access, there does, their behavior does start to betray, like, you don't really know what's going on in the world, and you don't even really know how people behave anymore. Like, you're clearly detached from a sense of, like, normal decorum, or just normal, kind of, like, how people interface.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Like, no sense of, like, what sort of on-the-ground risk looks like, like, in a social slash relational way.

• 25:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  It's like, hey, whoa, like, a lot of us would not do that. You shouldn't do that thing that you just did.

• 25:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  Really weird.

• 25:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. The royal family was, just to be a little more specific, they were heading to Mont Meddy,

• 25:52Speaker 01

  Really out of touch.

• 25:58Speaker 00

  which is a fortress town near today's Belgium. And that is where Louis was hoping to, you know, regroup and then negotiate safely with the French National Assembly. But when they reached their first rendezvous point to meet up with loyal soldiers who would hopefully escort them, no one was there, of course, because they had waited and waited

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 26:22Speaker 00

  And things had gotten weird with the villagers, and the soldiers had left. Definitely giving like Griswold family arriving at Wally World vibes, just like nothing, there's nothing there. Just maybe John Candy in a, in a security guard outfit, and that's all you get. These soldiers had all figured the plan was off, and they didn't want to hang around and like raise more friction with all these villagers, and so they'd just taken off. I personally don't blame them. That feels like they were in a very awkward position. And meanwhile, this giant bumblebee carriage had to stop and change horses yet again. And of course Louis is out peacocking around, and naturally he's spotted by people who

• 27:06Speaker 00

  are recognizing him, and unfortunately, he's also spotted by people who don't actually support him.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  Wow, and they're bold, right? Like, I bet they're really, really angry. Also, where are they getting the horses? Like, where are they? What, where are they? Are there horse people that didn't leave?

• 27:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  Because it's like, if the soldiers left, like, it's super weird for the horse reinforcements to stay.

• 27:29Speaker 00

  Well, but horse reinforcement people, they're not going to raise any eyebrows. Like, that's just part of 18th century logistics, right? There's just always horses and people, like, taking care of horses.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  They're totally, they're flush with horses, I get it, but it's just weird that if they're all on the same operation, why can't a horse person be like, wait, wait, I know you guys... I feel uncomfortable here, but just stay because he is coming. Like, or did they not know that they were all part of something?

• 27:57Speaker 00

  Well, here's another thing I don't know about horse logistics.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:01Speaker 00

  Is if, if you pre-plan all your horse changes, or if it's more like a gas station and you just stop and you're like, hey, can we trade you these like travel horses for, for your fresh horses?

• 28:13Speaker 01

  I bet it was that. Yeah, I bet they're just going being like, give me, give us, give me the horse. Like, give me, give me your horse right now. Like, we need, we need it. We can't say why. But then the king would be like, oh, because it's me.

• 28:23Speaker 00

  Like popping out of the, out of his little royal.

• 28:26Speaker 01

  Like roly, roly poly popping out with mustard on his face.

• 28:31Speaker 00

  In there, Louis, jeez.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  Get back in the, in the bumblebee, Louis.

• 28:36Speaker 00

  All right. Well, one of the people who recognized him was a postman who was furious that the king was escaping and jumped on his horse and dashed ahead of the carriage to the town of Varan, which is only 30 miles from their final destination of Malmedy. It's so close. This guy got to Varan ahead of them. He warned the town. And of course, so when the carriage rolled in, uh, there was a roadblock and all of the local officials and guardsmen, uh, they were out to snag the king.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 29:10Speaker 00

  And they surrounded the carriage and the royal escape was over.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  Oh my God. And were they dressed as a governess and a, what was the other guy? What was, what was the king gonna be?

• 29:22Speaker 00

  He was gonna be a valet, but it seems like he had a real hard time with that role.

• 29:30Speaker 00

  Like, not only did he have no idea how a valet should behave, he probably was like, these clothes are very uncomfortable.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 29:37Speaker 00

  Can I just wear my royal robe? Just, I mean, just, I mean, I'll still pretend to be a valet if anyone asks me, but I just need to be comfortable.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Comfortable. Yeah. Wow. It's so stressful that they went in that big carriage.

• 29:52Speaker 00

  It does reek of just a total misunderstanding, a misreading, a sort of like.

• 29:59Speaker 00

  Like, I'm with you, like, going back to just the prep. Like, don't pack. Just go. By the way, they're going to Austria, which is where Marie Antoinette is from. Her brother is the king of Austria. So like, they're gonna be fine. Just get there.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  It doesn't make any sense. And, but, but you're right, that it does make sense when it's like, they're really, they're feeling fear, a fear that feels serious and that they're probably not used to feeling. But they can't exactly make them, like, sort of like cognitive leap, like the understanding to realize that that fear is also because a context has completely changed. And they're still like, operating in the old context. And that is really, that's kind of like a lesson for all of us. It's like, sometimes you actually just have to do a bunch of really new stuff. Like, just drop it and go.

• 30:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  Just don't do any of your old stuff.

• 30:57Speaker 00

  Oh, you are so on point. And you're actually like, giving me, like, terror chills right now. Because I, I keep having this feeling that like, America is changing and it won't ever change back. Like, we're not, it's not gonna be chill. We're in this weird, uh, yeah, it feels like, uh, the storm clouds are gathering. And they're just not gonna go away.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  Totally. And also, I mean, not to get too, become too much of a bummer, but like, that is the story of like, half of my, like, my grandmother was a Holocaust survivor because her family, literally, did leave Paris with nothing and went and like, hid in the woods for years. But half of the family, like, didn't do that. Because it's like, in what, when you're like, you're just like, middle class in Paris, like, living in an apartment and you have a new couch and you run like, a, a pocketbook and wallet and hat business. Like, the idea that your life would change that much, it just doesn't feel... Reasonable, it's like, it's really hard to take action in a way that is completely uncharacteristic or disconnected from, from everything that you've seen in life, even if you've seen it happen to other people, you know?

• 32:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 32:06Speaker 00

  It's so hard to compute.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  Get on a bumblebee carriage or whatever, you know?

• 32:09Speaker 00

  And if your life is, is so gilded as, as

• 32:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:14Speaker 00

  As a royal person, like it's, it, that changes even harder. It's eve, it's so much more dramatic feeling.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 32:22Speaker 00

  But all the more necessary. All right, so now this is interesting. They had, they had at least taken the step of putting together some false papers in case they were stopped like this. So they did have pass, like false passports, et cetera.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 32:35Speaker 00

  But there's a final twist, which is that the officials, because of course they didn't, this is pre-photography, like they didn't, they couldn't like positively ID the king, unless there was someone that they, that they could verify knew the king. There was one instance of somebody sort of seeing his likeness on a piece of money, I believe, a coin, and that was sort of a hint, like, we think, we think it's the king because he resembles the, you know, this piece of money. Eventually, they, they got someone they, they knew had visited the king, and I believe this person was a loyalist to the king, but they brought him in to positively ID.

• 33:14Speaker 00

  And, you know, you would think this guy showing up would, would be, if he liked the king, he'd be like, oh, I don't know, I don't, maybe, maybe it's not the king.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, how would I know?

• 33:22Speaker 00

  But when, but when they brought him in, he was so overcome by seeing the king in the flesh that he actually bowed down on, on

• 33:31Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 33:32Speaker 00

  One knee and like immediately gave it away. So they were like, yep, we got him, we got the king. He's positively ID'd.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  Darn it.

• 33:40Speaker 00

  The irony, of course, being that

• 33:44Speaker 00

  This is the treatment he'd been hoping for from all of his

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:47Speaker 00

  From all the country folk the whole time. But this is game over. This is it.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  And is this like the end?

• 33:54Speaker 00

  So when the royal family was caught in Varennes, they were held until revolutionary soldiers arrived to drag them back to Paris. Descriptions of their return to the city of Paris are very dramatic. Apparently it was just dead silent, like the mobs were out, but it was dead silent. I believe Robespierre had warned everyone, if you cheer for the king, you'll be punished. Or if you jeer or ridicule the king, you will also be punished. So people were dead quiet, which is spooky, right?

• 34:28Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. There's not, first of all, there's nothing worse, I think, than the silent treatment. It is such an insane power grab. It's absolutely so humiliating and obviously impossible to decipher, except for that something is wrong. And then to have everybody, like all of Paris, all of Paris.

• 34:48Speaker 00

  You're rolling into town.

• 34:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:51Speaker 00

  It's just like, are you looking out the window like, hi?

• 34:56Speaker 01

  So we're just gonna shuffle forward a bit. We're gonna scooch back into the

• 35:01Speaker 00

  Are we good? Or is this, are you guys, are you guys mad or like, are we chill?

• 35:07Speaker 01

  Such a message of control, like if you're, you know, trying to say like, you know, the power should belong to the people and the people who are so impassioned are able to also control themselves and agree amongst themselves so much that they're all deadly, still and quiet. That is, that's extraordinary.

• 35:27Speaker 00

  It is. It's, it's

• 35:30Speaker 01

  That's a major move. I don't think we'd be able to do that right now in ours.

• 35:34Speaker 00

  You're right.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  In our realm.

• 35:41Speaker 00

  A group of royal supporters at this point were trying to kind of like spin the story to help the king save face and they they came up with this story that he'd been kidnapped by sinister foreign agents who actually wanted to invade France.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Not bad.

• 35:57Speaker 00

  You know.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  I mean, it doesn't seem like that's what happened.

• 36:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it's a good try. It doesn't really pass the smell test because the biggest problem with the foreigners kidnapped the poor king story is that before they left the palace, the King Louis had written a manifesto of sorts. He had said that all of his earlier agreements with the National Assembly that supported the Constitution, that all of that stuff was a lie.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 36:27Speaker 00

  And that he'd really just been buying time while he planned to retake the throne and retake the country from the revolutionary government. So he basically like laid out all, you know, thinking that he would be free.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  What is he doing?

• 36:41Speaker 00

  Well, he thought he thought he was escaping and so he basically was leaving his his kind of like thoughts behind so that people would understand and that hopefully maybe he might rally some support, I guess. And he thought he would be coming back from a from a more from a position of power to say like, hey, I'm here. It's time to negotiate with me. We're going to restore the monarchy.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:06Speaker 00

  But but he actually was just kind of humiliated and this turned out to be one of the primary pieces of evidence against him at trial.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Look, you got to keep your paperwork straight. You got to you got to really think about when you're going to show your papers.

• 37:22Speaker 00

  This was a huge turning point in the revolution because to the extent that there was a belief that they could make this constitutional monarchy work and that they could sort of share power between a figurehead monarch and representatives of the people, this escape attempt just blew that out of the water. And all of a sudden now the revolutionaries are furious at the monarchy. They're furious at the king and they they they want him.

• 37:57Speaker 00

  They want him gone and the monarchy was fully abolished by the revolutionary government in 1792. All of this, the escape attempt and his, the letter that he'd left behind were all used against him as evidence at trial and he was of course sentenced to death.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 38:16Speaker 00

  What do you think? Was that fair?

• 38:18Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't know. I don't, like the guillotine is really, really gross.

• 38:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  It's really, really gross, you know? Um, yeah, not my choice, not my choice, uh, death penalty.

• 38:31Speaker 00

  You know that the interesting thing about the guillotine is that it was invented by someone opposed to the death penalty and because their main, um, beef with the death penalty is how inhumane it is. And the thought was that the guillotine was the most humane way to kill someone because it's so clean and fast.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 38:51Speaker 00

  I, I don't.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 38:54Speaker 00

  It, yeah, it's so gruesome, right?

• 38:56Speaker 01

  And it's so scary. It's not like whoever that executioner was, was like the Temple Grandin's of France or whatever. He wasn't the Temple Grandin of France, you know what I mean?

• 39:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:07Speaker 01

  You know, there's, there's something also about the, the beheading of Marie Antoinette that has always like made me feel, um, maybe it's just all ladies that get beheaded like in history that I know about, which is like genuinely too. It's like Anne Boleyn and Marie Antoinette and I'm just like, oh, you didn't have to do that.

• 39:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  It's like put her, put her somewhere else. Get, get her out of here, you know, if you don't like her, but like, ugh, I don't, it breaks, breaks my heart.

• 39:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, it is upsetting. I think even like wherever you stand on the death penalty thing, like, did they deserve that in this moment? But it, it was, I think for the revolutionaries, such a symbolic gesture of like death to not just these particular people. It was death to monarchy as a concept.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:54Speaker 00

  Like we are, we are removing this and of course we're just like nixing the, the bloodline. We're making it permanent. That's, death is permanent and, um, and yeah, it's, but it's grisly. Uh, and I, this is not me defending it. I'm, this is me just trying to get into the heads of these, of the revolutionaries. Of course, it also is a very slippery slope because this read to, led to, uh, Robespierre's infamous reign of terror where thousands of people were just like.

• 40:24Speaker 00

  Unceremoniously beheaded.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  Well, that's what I was gonna say is like you do send a signal that this is possible. If you go against what's happening and like first it's like you behead the monarchy and I get that, but then it's like this thing that we did is so extreme and it has to hold that if anybody even seems like they're not going to be with it, they also have to get their heads chopped off and that is not, you know, the way. I mean, this morning I was actually listening to Ken Burns talk about his new documentary about the Revolutionary War and like he was like a country is born in violence and but like eh, after a while, there's gotta be another system that that steps up like a, you know, system of rule of law and that kind of thing, I think.

• 41:10Speaker 00

  I mean, at this point, don't we have a good grasp on like what works best?

• 41:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think we do.

• 41:17Speaker 00

  Isn't the data in?

• 41:19Speaker 01

  I think the data actually is in and then there's like five guys who are like, whoa, we don't, whoa, let me do my own research.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  The idea that I would ever quote unquote, do my own research, like I don't know how to do that, you know, I don't think I'm an idiot, but I'm not like a scientist or a politician, like I don't know. I don't know, you know, I'd love to trust the experts.

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• 44:01Speaker 00

  Actually, there's one last little epilogue here. This is kind of fun, a little post-credit scene, if you will. Because I know you're curious about the last big, old dangling thread here. What happened to our Swedish boy toy Axel von Fersen?

• 44:16Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 44:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay, well, he himself was killed by an angry mob when he was mistakenly accused of poisoning the Swedish prince in 1810.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 44:28Speaker 00

  But, yeah, angry mobs were a real big deal at this point.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  They're really scary. I mean, we had one recently in our nation. It's scary. Yeah, they're scary.

• 44:41Speaker 00

  They don't generally make good decisions.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  No.

• 44:45Speaker 00

  I read somewhere a quote. I wish I could remember who to attribute it to. "The intelligence of a mob..." Is that of the dumbest person in the mob?

• 44:56Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 44:57Speaker 00

  So like the behavior, like an entire mob behaves as the dumbest person in the mob.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  Actually, I was just thinking about like, if for some reason, Americans were able to be totally silent while someone rolled through town that they didn't like, that like, when I said, we'd never be able to do it, like, I was fully imagining myself in the, in the silent crowd, not being able to stop myself from being like, hell, fart it! Like, just like, that it's so tempting to disturb, you know, the stillness. I think I would be the weakest, the dumbest person in, in the mob. I'm the person that changes us from a cohort into like a freak out.

• 45:42Speaker 00

  Could you ever see yourself being swept up in a mob? I, I think it's one of those-

• 45:47Speaker 01

  Like emotionally?

• 45:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I feel, because I feel like it's one of those things that, that we all think like, were, that were, it's sort of like cults, right? Everyone says like, I could never join a cult, like, I would never fall for that insane, I'm too-

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Oh, I would.

• 46:02Speaker 00

  I, you would?

• 46:04Speaker 01

  I don't think I would be in a mob, because I don't consider myself to be like, an impulsive person, and I don't have like, a sort of, you know, like, the switchblade of a temper that just like, comes out. But I really love friendly groups, I love cooking, I love it when people are like, trying to help each other, actualize their dreams, and I like it when people like, are dedicated to each other, and a lot of times, cults are like, nonviolent. I used to have a stand-up bit about this, actually, about how like, I would totally get drawn into the, into a cult, because like, I like all the things that they do, except I don't like having to be naked in a group of people, and I don't like having to do like, oral sex to like, a very, very elderly person who has a long beard, which I feel like they make you do, like, the head of the cult.

• 46:47Speaker 00

  That is, that's, that's in the cult, the cult bylaws.

• 46:51Speaker 01

  There's usually some guy, who's like, you know what, actually, a lot of the more interesting members of the cult are, are doing.

• 47:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. But wait, why haven't you, you fallen into a cult then? There are lots of them out there. There are lots of great options.

• 47:09Speaker 01

  Okay, I've got a strong family, really great friends that are like, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't, don't go in there.

• 47:15Speaker 00

  Good answer. I also think that you are a inquisitive person and you're someone who like you're, you're not only very intelligent and, and sort of like educated and you've taken it upon yourself to learn about the world and learn about people. And I think that is some of the best armor against these kinds of group think or indoctrination of some kind. The minute you start asking questions, even with genuine curiosity, not even like an accusatory like, wait a minute, but you're just sort of like, now, hold on, why do you think I should, I should blow that old man with a beard? Like, what's the reason? Like, why are we getting what's?

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Why would we have to do that, though? Like, you know, like if we're all gonna transcend and like, you know, have clear minds, like, why would we need to do that? Yeah. And you know what is a good place to start for me sometimes? It's like, I will ask myself or sometimes other people, like, if this were a movie, who, who would you be? And like, what part of this story, like, would it seem like a good story? If this were a parable, if this were like a religious text or a fairy tale, who would you be? Who would they be?

• 48:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, who would they be? That's a great question.

• 48:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, who would they be?

• 48:36Speaker 00

  I think you're on to something really quite elegant, which is that stories, movies, parables, the sort of broad, whatever gestalt of human storytelling, it is rooted in fundamental values, right? Like a sense of right and wrong. My kid loves The Lion King, and so I've gotten very deep into the sort of like Lion King universe and, and.

• 49:05Speaker 00

  That is a movie where good and bad is so clearly delineated and bad is portrayed with Nazi symbolism.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Totally, I mean, when Scar's, yeah, when he sings "Be Prepared," that is, those hyenas are doing it.

• 49:22Speaker 00

  They're goose-stepping. Hyenas are literally goose-stepping.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 49:26Speaker 00

  And it's, and so, it's, it's so interesting to me that those kinds of stories that, that obviously have an intent to kind of raise children with a sense of right and wrong and a sense of sort of trepidation towards that kind of behavior, towards Scar's behavior.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:47Speaker 00

  And yet, we see a cultural swing to a greater trust in that. Like, I'm so confused, that's such cognitive dissonance for me, and that I'm trying to work through and understand.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you know, there's also the thing about the fairy tale, and I would include, you know, The Lion King and that, is that like, the, the thing that can be hard in adulthood is that you can feel that a fairy tale only functions as something to, like a warning or a disappointment, because it's like, wait, but like, the Jafar of my life didn't get stopped, the Scar of my life didn't, of my country, like, didn't get thrown off the cliff or whatever.

• 50:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  Like, they, they, they're sitting on the, on the chair, they're sitting on the throne, whatever, but I think that that can actually be a distraction from the other thing about fairy tales or archetypes, which is like, they're a, they're a template for us to compare ourselves to. They're not just like an outcome or sort of an immature, shallow warning. It's like, there's, they're really useful, they're really, really useful, because you don't get so scared about, like, having to really think about your own life, you know, you don't short-circuit or get overwhelmed, but if you place it outside of yourself and you look, then you're like, oh, I guess I do see a lot of stuff. Because I do see a lot of similarities and and then you have to do the even, you know,

• 51:06Speaker 01

  the more difficult work of figuring out how to turn in a new direction. But if you do turn in a new direction, you shouldn't go in a big, yellow

• 51:14Speaker 00

  Bumblebee carriage.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  And black bumblebee carriage because and even if you do that, don't get out of the fucking carriage, man.

• 51:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Stay inside.

• 51:21Speaker 00

  Right. Just stay, keep your head inside and and

• 51:25Speaker 01

  Stay inside.

• 51:25Speaker 00

  Go as fast as you can, change those horses and go as fast as you can. Jenny Slate, you're amazing and such a delight. Thanks so much for coming on Snafu.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me. I loved this.

• 51:38Speaker 00

  Snafu is a production of iHeart Podcasts and Snafu Media, a partnership between Film Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company. Post-production and creative support from Good Egg Audio. Our executive producers are me, Ed Helms, Mike Falbo, Glenn Basner, Andy Kim, and Dylan Fagan. This episode was produced by Alyssa Martino and Tori Smith. Our managing producer is Carl Nellis. Our video editor is Jared Smith. Technical direction and engineering from Nick Dooley. Additional story editing from Carl Nellis. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. Logo and branding by Matt Gosson and The Collected Works. Legal review from Dan Welsh, Megan Halson, and Caroline Johnson.

• 52:22Speaker 00

  Special thanks to Isaac Dunham, Adam Horn, Lane Klein, and everyone at iHeart Podcasts, but especially Will Pearson, Carrie Lieberman, and Nikki Ator. While I have you, don't forget to pick up a copy of my book, Snafu: The Definitive Guide to History's Greatest Screw-Ups. It's available now from any book retailer. Just go to snafu-book.com. Thanks for listening and see you next week.

• 52:56Speaker 00

  The scariest part of Halloween isn't the full moon or a chainsaw starting up in the distance. It's running out of Reese's cups. Because when you open the door to four princesses, six superheroes, and three Draculas all reaching for your Reese's cups, things can get scary fast. Especially when you were kind of counting on some leftovers. So this Halloween, buy extra. Because your neighbor Jeff dressed like a kangaroo? That's scary enough. Running out of Reese's cups doesn't need to be.

• 53:26Speaker 05

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