Cambridge Analytica: Facebook's Big Data Scandal - Part II (with Kevin Roose and Casey Newton)

The unraveling web of deceipt continues in the Facebook Data Scandal. Our guests, Kevin Roose and Casey Newton unveil what Mark Zuckerberg had to say for himself in a one-on-one interview. And what were the ramifications in the wake of the 2016 presidential election? Find out in the thrilling conclusion of this week's SNAFU. Don't forget to subscribe to the SNAFU YouTube channel: www.youtube.com/@SNAFUPod Buy the SNAFU book: www.snafu-book.com http://www.snafu-book.com/ See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  I think it's important to have both virtues and vices.

• 0:03Speaker 01

  All right. Ooh, elaborate, Kevin. What are your favorite vices?

• 0:07Speaker 02

  He's a huge gambler.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Of course, we contain multitudes.

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• 2:14Speaker 01

  Hello, Snafu fans and welcome back to Snafu, the podcast about history's greatest screw-ups. I am your host, Ed Helms, and today we are diving into part two of our Cambridge Analytica story because this one was just too insane to try to squeeze into one episode. It is just absolutely bonkers. And of course, I am still joined for part two by my incredible guests, the brilliant Kevin Roos and Casey Newton of the New York Times tech podcast Hard Fork. They are two of the most delightful, hilarious, brilliant, and insightful people you could ever hope to have on a podcast. And they're also incredibly well-informed

• 2:57Speaker 01

  on this particular story because they both covered it as reporters when it happened back in the mid 2010s. All right, so I highly suggest, if you haven't already, go back and listen to the previous episode, just so you're fully up to speed. But you know what? You don't have to. I'm going to give you a quick little recap here. So we're all in this together. All right. Previously on Snafu, a seemingly harmless Facebook quiz turned into a full-blown data exploitation scheme as millions of users had their information quietly scraped from Facebook and handed over to a nefarious political strategy operation called Cambridge Analytica, which then used said data to build psychological profiles of nearly 80 million users and then target them with manipulative political messaging.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  This very sketchy firm was employed by both the Ted Cruz and Donald Trump campaigns during the 2016 presidential election. Kevin Roos actually landed an interview with Zuck in the immediate aftermath of this giant scandal. And it's a wild story. Kevin was given like and his colleague, they were given like 20 minutes to prepare for this epic interview, which was probably something of a psycho power play on Zuckerberg's part. Anyway, Cambridge Analytica whistleblower Christopher Wiley also had some very choice words when he described the operation as targeting people's, quote, "inner demons." And he described

• 4:25Speaker 01

  the entire endeavor as, quote, "Steve Bannon's psychological warfare mindfuck tool."

• 4:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's that's some good quote. I mean, that's what it is. All right. So whether you're just joining us or you're back for more, you are now fully caught up. So let's dive right back into it. We just heard about Wiley's quotes, the psychological warfare mindfuck tool. Very soon after this, Channel 4 in the UK aired undercover footage of Cambridge Analytica CEO Alexander Nix, who had recently told Parliament that the company hadn't used Facebook data, which is a statement that did not age well. In the recordings captured over a series of meetings with a reporter posing as a wealthy prospective client, Nix laid out a menu of tactics that sounded less like campaign

• 5:13Speaker 01

  strategy and more like a rejected Bond villain pitch: honey traps with sex workers, bribery, blackmail, the works. And just to round things out, he also casually discussed using data to influence elections across the globe. It went further than that. Wiley's documents revealed that Cambridge Analytica had even pitched its services to Russia. In 2014, they met with representatives from Lukoil, a Russian oil company that often acted as a surrogate for Putin. The topic on the table was unsurprisingly, psychographic messaging to help Russia interfere in foreign elections. Now, it needs to be noted, they didn't end up doing any official work for Lukoil or

• 5:53Speaker 01

  the Russian government, but the fact that this meeting was taken is dark. "We're used to operating through different vehicles in the shadows, and I look forward to building a very long-term and secretive relationship with you." Now, I believe that was the prospective, wealthy prospective client meeting, not the Lukoil meeting, but but you just get a sense of this guy.

• 6:14Speaker 00

  Also, great opening line on Tinder, I think.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, I would love to have that very long-term and secretive relationship. I asked to have a long-term and secretive relationship with Ed, but he said, no, you have to come on the podcast, and we're going to release it publicly, so. But it can be long term.

• 6:29Speaker 00

  Okay, good.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  So by March of, by March and April of 2018, this story was everywhere. You couldn't open news apps without bumping into Cambridge Analytica. The idea that your memes and likes and casual quiz results might have been repurposed in political targeting, it just hit people hard. I think it hit all of us in this like visceral way. It just, it felt like suddenly what we thought was harmless internet background noise was not, it was more insidious perhaps. Outrage followed, hashtag delete, Facebook started trending, tens of millions of accounts were implicated in the data exposure or included in the data exposure. And users were not happy to discover that they had been participating in a system they didn't realize existed.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  Did that backlash affect Facebook?

• 7:18Speaker 02

  I think it was a devastating blow to the trust that Americans had in Facebook that the company has truly never recovered from. When you look at polls of trust in American companies, Facebook typically ranks around the bottom of that. And while it hadn't been a particularly popular company before then, it still had a much better reputation than it did before that. So yeah, I think Cambridge Analytica was the beginning of the moment that Americans said, this company seems kind of shady and it sucks. Now, interestingly, that did not stop Americans from continuing to use all of its products for many hours a day.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  But it is also true that reputationally Cambridge Analytica was just huge for this company.

• 8:06Speaker 00

  Well, and I think it also brought Facebook more into the political sphere. Because people, I think in politics have kind of a varying level of sophistication and familiarity with technology, but like political campaigns and political influence is something they do understand. And so I think, you know, Zuckerberg spent most of the next couple of years like testifying before various legislative bodies and answering angry questions from lawmakers. And this became like a huge headache for them politically. And so I think that was maybe the biggest sort of long term consequence of this for Facebook was that it just, it made them into a political actor in a new way.

• 8:51Speaker 00

  And I think that ended up being very hard for them.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  That makes a lot of sense. Now, the million dollar question, uh, did anyone in power actually face any real repercussions? And the answer is kind of, but also not really. So let's dig into that. First off, Facebook executives apparently knew all this was happening on their platform. They found out in 2015 that Kogan's app had been mining data. But when they looked into it, Cambridge Analytica claimed that all the data had been deleted. You, you guys have been mentioning this so far. And so Facebook just kind of let it go. Now, did they tell any of their users that their data had been taken? Uh, of course not. There was no need to do this, I guess.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  I feel like the, the scale and complexity of these platforms just makes it really easy to sweep things under the rug. Like you just, you don't have to, you don't have to own up to things so much. Like to what, what, what is the percentage of healthy activity versus unhealthy activity in a Facebook office?

• 9:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that the way that the company thinks about its core business would really shock people. They sort of dress it up in a lot of like metaphors and they don't always say out loud exactly what they're doing, but like, make no mistake, like the longer that you stare at the app, the more money that company makes. And so like, that is what that company is built to do is to like, get you to stare at it. And yeah, that's had maybe a lot of negative downstream consequences over the years.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  When the Cambridge Analytica data leak was revealed, of course, Facebook CEO Zuckerberg went silent for five whole days. Kevin, uh, on March 21st of 2018, you wrote a New York Times article called Missing From Facebook's Crisis. Mark Zuckerberg, where you said that since the scandal broke, neither Mr. Zuckerberg nor Sheryl Sandberg, Facebook's chief operating officer, has made any public appearances. I'm now quoting you to you, but I love it. Mr. Zuckerberg's last public post on Facebook was a March 2nd photo of himself and his wife Priscilla Chan baking Hamantaschen cookies to celebrate the Jewish holiday of Purim. Ms. Sandberg's most recent post was a four-day-old photo from her child's debate competition.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  It feels like they're terrified, like this is, this is four days of, of, of what? Like, what do you, what's in that moment for them?

• 11:24Speaker 00

  I mean, I think they were trying to figure out what had happened. They were clearly surprised by this. They were looking into the various actions they had taken against Hogan and Cambridge Analytica. They were trying to figure out how this had sort of slipped through their systems. But they were also just on their back feet and they were, you have to remember, this was coming just shortly after all of the Russia stuff, which sort of swirled around them in the aftermath of the 2016 election. And there were, you know, investigations and congressional hearings and the Mueller

• 12:07Speaker 00

  report, like all this was happening, you know, roughly in the same period of a couple of years. And I think for them, they were just trying to figure out, okay, well, like, is this sort of an all-hands-on-deck, code-red incident, or is this gonna blow over soon?

• 12:22Speaker 01

  I'm gonna jump now into Zuck's testifying in front of Congress. This is, this was a wild media circus. He gets obviously pulled in to answer a lot of questions, and there's some kind of interesting moments. We've got one here to take a listen to.

• 12:41Speaker 07

  Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Zuckerberg, would you be comfortable sharing with us the name of the hotel you stayed in last night?

• 12:52Speaker 00

  Uh, no.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  I'm just loving Congress's approach here. They're making Zuckerberg feel like his privacy is maybe that he holds it at a different level than those of his customers and that that's not, not real chill.

• 13:13Speaker 00

  Maybe he was just embarrassed because it was like a Best Western.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:19Speaker 00

  The Four Seasons was awful, so.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Somehow I doubt that. But, um, but I do, yeah, I just think, uh, that there were some ways in which this, um, this hearing was, uh, was pretty effective in just sort of channeling the, the bad will of what's, what's afoot here. Uh, in later testimony, Zuckerberg acknowledged that Facebook probably should have banned Cambridge Analytica back in 2015 instead of accepting their assurances that they had deleted the harvested data. Zuckerberg took responsibility, saying, "It was my mistake and I'm sorry I started Facebook. I run it and I'm responsible for what happens here." And just reading that, I also, I realized that in my cadence, it sounded like I said,

• 14:03Speaker 01

  "And I'm sorry I started Facebook," which is not what he said. He said, "I'm sorry, period. I started Facebook." But I kind of like the other interpretation. Well, Zuckerberg, this is all well and good, but sometimes a simple apology doesn't cut it when the personal information of 87 million people is stolen on your watch. Casey, on June 7th, 2018, you wrote a column in The Verge called "Congress Roasted Facebook on TV But Won't Hear Any Bills To Regulate It." So, did Zuckerberg testifying accomplish anything? Was it, was it all just kind of a dog and pony show?

• 14:39Speaker 02

  My view is that the congressional hearings really did not accomplish very much. I got frustrated because he wound up doing a bunch of these hearings over the next few years. Typically, somebody would ask him a question, he would get five words into the answer, or they would interrupt him and move on to their next question. So it all just sort of felt useless. And, you know, one of the- Really sort of funny things that emerged was that the main product of these hearings was that the Congress members would ask him their gotcha question. They would, you know, interrupt him and try to look tough and sort of push back on him. And then they would clip that and then put that on Instagram. You know, so it was like they were sort of using his platforms to like burnish their

• 15:24Speaker 02

  own reputations, but not actually address any of the underlying issues that they were allegedly mad about.

• 15:30Speaker 00

  Well, and critically, like, Congress didn't do anything. You know, they didn't pass a federal privacy law. There was no lasting change that came out of this that made anyone's data any safer that originated in Congress.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, well, that's, that's unusual for Congress. That feels weird that they didn't do anything.

• 15:53Speaker 00

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• 19:19Speaker 01

  Let's get back to your interview in those days right after Kevin, where you did have, you and your colleague did have that chance to talk directly to Mark Zuckerberg. There's a pretty poignant moment in that interview where you asked Mark if he felt guilty about the role Facebook is playing in the world. He said, "I don't know that it's possible to know every issue that you're going to face down the road, but we have a real responsibility to take all these issues seriously as they come up and work with experts and people around the world to make sure we solve them and do a good job for our community." At another point in the interview, he reiterates that the primary mission of Facebook is to connect people. Now, I think at this point, we all feel that that's a pretty tired canard, but I'm curious

• 20:04Speaker 01

  at that time, and being on the phone and hearing the tenor of his voice, like, did you believe that he was being sincere in that moment about Facebook's larger mission, about their sort of sense of integrity and this, quote, "real responsibility to take these things seriously"?

• 20:23Speaker 00

  I don't know what response I had at the time, but looking back on it now, I see that this is just what he does, or what he did. You know, for many years, since the start of Facebook, basically, there was a pattern where Facebook would do something, whether it was changing the news feed, or taking away some feature that people liked, or implementing some new feature that people didn't like, and he would say, "Sorry, I'm sorry. I feel a real responsibility to get this right," or something like that. And then, nothing would change, or they would walk back part of the change, but keep the rest of it.

• 21:05Speaker 00

  He did this a lot, and this was a particularly high-stakes example of this, but I think it fit with the pattern.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  Do we need to go to couples derpy with Mark Zuckerberg as a population?

• 21:21Speaker 02

  I mean, I think we know who Mark Zuckerberg is at this point. He is a man who wants to win and will do almost anything to do that. But like, that is the thing that is important to him. It is growing a big thing. His legacy is very important. He wants to be remembered as like a sort of, you know, very important inventor. All the other details are, uh, you know, negotiable. And I think that's actually quite scary. And, um, as the years have gone on, we've sort of seen that like the explanation that he gave Kevin, he gave it because that was what the world wanted to hear at the time. But then as long as, but then when the sort of world moved on, his explanations could move on too.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  Well, despite everything, Zuckerberg got away basically scot-free. Um, but what about Cambridge Analytica? So the fallout for them was more straightforward. The FTC sued the company and by May 2018, it had filed for bankruptcy. Alexander Nix, the CEO, didn't exactly walk away clean either. In 2020, the FTC barred him from holding directorships or working in similar data-driven political operations. The list of conduct attached to that ban included bribery, honey trap schemes, voter disengagement tactics, uh, and covert information operations aimed at discrediting political opponents. The fine print, of course, is that the ban is time limited, which means doing the math,

• 22:45Speaker 01

  he is set to be eligible to return to this field in September of 2027.

• 22:49Speaker 02

  And we're all rooting for him to get back in the game. You got this, Alex. We're rooting for you.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  He paid his debts to society. Come on. Um, I'm sure he turned around. He learned a lot of lessons. Uh, Casey, in your article from The Verge, uh, titled Cambridge Analytica Died Because It Couldn't Stop Playing The Victim, you wrote Cambridge Analytica was nothing if not consistent. After nearly two months of scandal, the Trump campaign's one-time data analytics firm died as it lived, denying it ever did anything wrong and excoriating the journalists who reported about the ways in which it misused data. No one at Cambridge Analytica was sorry for what the company did and few will be sorry to see it go. I love your writing, both of you guys. I truly, it's like, there's just a, it's like a little chippy, you know?

• 23:39Speaker 01

  And but, but also just deeply.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  Honest and like attached to, I think you guys are coming from a very, a place of deep integrity. And I really appreciate that. This is obviously the classic deny, deny, deny move, which we see so much in the political sphere now. Do you think it's just as prevalent in the tech world? I don't have a sense of that. I mean, obviously it's the, it's de rigueur in the political space.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  What specifically? Just this kind, just like can deny everything?

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Take, take no responsibility. I mean, we were just talking about how Zuckerberg is a little bit of sort of like pablum supplier, but.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  I mean, my view on this is that Silicon Valley, at the very least, used to pay more lip service to corporate responsibility. You know, I started covering tech in 2010 and I, you know, spent the first decade just hearing companies talk endlessly about all of the good that they were doing in the world and how they were going to sort of change everything around us for the better. I think the, the moment that changed was when Elon Musk bought Twitter. Because Elon Musk did not really pretend that he, I mean, he would, you know, make noises sometimes about, you know, Twitter saving civilization, but it was also sort of like lofty and ridiculous. I think no one took it seriously. But then in the meantime, you know, he would like fire the team doing the content moderation.

• 25:01Speaker 02

  He would post incredibly offensive things online all the time. He would laid off many of his employees. And a lot of the other CEOs in Silicon Valley took a look at the fact that no matter how outrageous Elon Musk's behavior was, the value of his companies kept going up. And they said, why have I been paying lip service to all this corporate responsibility stuff? I don't have to do that. I'm just going to do what I want. And so we're now sort of living in like that dark world where no one feels any, like, like, like they can sort of get away with the stuff that they have been wanting to do the whole time.

• 25:32Speaker 00

  Well, and it's, I would say it's even like, it's even gone further than that to the point where, you know, if, if these CEOs used to. Be virtue signaling, they are now vice signaling.

• 25:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 25:44Speaker 00

  They want to be seen as sort of carefree bad boys who don't play by the rules because that is sort of the vibe in this class of executives now. It's not cool if you're a CEO to be bossed around by your employees or to take cues about how to run your company from anyone else. What is in is founder mode and the idea that you just have to sort of rule with an iron fist. I think there's been a real cultural shift in Silicon Valley and Mark Zuckerberg is a great example of that. You will notice that he no longer apologizes for things when he, when Meta, as it's now called, does something that gets a lot of people upset.

• 26:27Speaker 00

  You don't see him doing these sort of apologetic press tours and saying, oh, I feel so much responsibility over this because that is not the, the, the.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  It's not required.

• 26:37Speaker 00

  De rigueur, to borrow your French phrase, that CEOs should do that anymore.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  Can we go back to virtue signaling?

• 26:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Like, can we just, what's, like, virtue signaling is mildly annoying, but the, but vice signaling is like deeply unsettling.

• 26:53Speaker 02

  Right. Also, like, I would hope that even the people complaining about virtue signaling would admit that it's still like good to have virtues, you know?

• 27:02Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 27:03Speaker 02

  We should still have basic principles that we operate by that, you know, create a better world. So, yeah, I would love to see that.

• 27:10Speaker 01

  If the accusation is that you're not living up to the virtues that you're espousing, I can deal with that a lot more than just espousing horseshit as like your value system. Anyway, that's my little rant.

• 27:24Speaker 00

  I think it's important to have both virtues and vices.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  All right. Ooh, elaborate, Kevin. What are your favorite vices?

• 27:30Speaker 02

  He's a huge gambler.

• 27:31Speaker 00

  Inside every person, there's a, you know, there's.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  Of course, we contain multitudes.

• 27:36Speaker 00

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• 30:02Speaker 04

  She'd throw things, wander, and started hoarding. Mom's Alzheimer's was already so hard. But then we found out she had agitation that may happen with dementia due to Alzheimer's disease. And that was a different kind of difficult. So we asked her doctor for more help.

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• 30:59Speaker 01

  This has sort of emerged throughout our discussion, but it's worth putting a fine point on the fact that it came out later that Cambridge Analytica's efforts may not have had nearly as much impact as they intended or claimed, which perhaps it really was just a giant scam, a scam of a scam. But Cambridge Analytica's shuddering wasn't the end for this case. Finally, in 2022, came the, drumroll please, class-action lawsuit. Facebook, I'm sorry, now Meta agreed to pay $725 million to settle legal action over the data breach. A victory, but, you know, a record 28 million people had staked their claim, equating to an average payout of $30. Was this a win?

• 31:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, this was huge. I think everyone who was really upset about Donald Trump's election and some of the underhanded tactics that Cambridge Analytica employed to get there, all they really wanted was $30. And so when that came down, I think people were like, all right, that actually was like, that was a fair deal.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, I retired on that $30 settlement.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Facebook did also pay a record $5 billion fine to the US government. The previous record holder was Equifax, who had been charged 425. So that's a pretty big jump. On top of that, there was an SEC penalty of 100 million. The UK Information Commissioner's Office fined them 500,000 pounds. Afterward, according to The Guardian and Channel 4, Facebook, quote, "modified their corporate structure to ensure executives are more accountable for users' privacy." And they also locked down, quote, "their APIs," as you reported, Casey. And that's the extent of it, guys. That's the whole kit and caboodle of Cambridge Analytica, which I always want to say Encyclopedia Britannica.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  Whenever the name comes up, that's the first thing that pops in my head. But before we dive into just a couple of wrap-up reflections, did we miss anything? Was there any crucial part of this narrative that I skipped?

• 33:00Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, one of the reasons that the British press seized on this story and sort of led a lot of the coverage was that it was also implicated in Brexit.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 33:13Speaker 02

  And there was a lot of thinking that the same forces that wanted Trump to win also wanted Brexit to happen. And so they had sort of run their same psychographic operation on the UK, and Brexit wound up being successful. So I think that's an important thing to point out because even though, again, I do believe that a lot of the feeters around what Cambridge Analytica actually did were overstated, the fact that it was implicated in these two kind of like epical shifts in Western civilization within a couple of years of each other is one of the big reasons why it caught fire.

• 33:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would agree with that. And I would just add one more sort of coda to this story, which is that I think this scandal cost Facebook in one particular way. And I'm not sure about this, but I'm just piecing together some threads here, which is that in 2018, as they were dealing with this, this was also the year that researchers at places like OpenAI and Google were starting to experiment with these new kinds of AI systems. At the time, Facebook was one of the leading AI research companies. They had a lot of researchers, they had this big division. And they basically missed this wave, in part, I think, because they were so distracted

• 34:32Speaker 00

  by all of the political controversies and the testimonies and the hearings and the fines and the regulation threats. And I think it was just, if you could sort of speculate, you know, that these things have kind of a butterfly effect. I think that one of the reasons that they were late to this new wave of AI that is now, they are now spending a lot of money to try to catch up in, is that they were just really distracted. And part of that distraction was this Cambridge Analytica business.

• 35:06Speaker 01

  In summation, guys, I just have one sort of, one last sort of broad reflective question. I love that Zuckerberg's original mantra was move fast and break things. And then in 2014, they changed it to move fast with stable infrastructure. Of course, this is before all of this stuff broke down, so apparently they didn't stick to it very well. But it does indicate an awareness of some of their liabilities, an awareness that perhaps they're not sort of signaling ethics forward in the way that they should be, they should be doing better. Cambridge Analytica was a huge misstep.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  But I'm curious, for both you guys, so entrenched in the tech industry right now, do you feel like the general sense of the integrity of the leadership in tech is trending better? Or, it feels like we went through a phase, like you were just describing, Casey, where, you know, maybe Musk taking over Twitter was like the inflection point of a downward trend. Are we, where are we headed? And please tap into your inner optimism here.

• 36:18Speaker 02

  Oh, man, I'm trying to think of an optimistic take on this that I actually believe. I think that if I have any optimism, it's that we're sort of reaching the nadir. You know?

• 36:31Speaker 01

  You're right.

• 36:31Speaker 02

  Like, we have seen over the past few years, most of the CEOs try to align themselves with just these sort of very exploitative, hyper capitalist forces where they seem like they scarcely care about any individual, like one of their customers. And I think that that is just going to burn itself out. Like, I feel like right now, we are being consumed by a fever. And I think the fever is going to pass, and I do not think it is going to kill the patient. And I think that once that fever has passed, people are going to be looking around and they're once again going to align themselves with, you know, companies and CEOs and political

• 37:12Speaker 02

  leaders who do actually signal some virtues and live up to them and seem to sort of have their best interests at heart. So I think we are in a pretty dark time for that at the moment, but I don't think it'll last forever.

• 37:26Speaker 00

  I'll offer one more thread of optimism.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Please, but first, let me just say, that was beautiful. That was such a deep dig for optimism, and I believed it, and I really appreciate it. All right, Kevin, your turn.

• 37:39Speaker 00

  Mine is optimistic in a slightly different way, which is related to the last discussion about AI and how Meta had missed out on this moment in part because they were distracted. Imagine how scared people would be right now about AI if Mark Zuckerberg and Meta were the leading AI companies in the world. As much as people are terrified of this stuff taking jobs and, you know, creating cyber attacks and blowing up the world, I think we're in a better place now because Meta fell behind during that moment than we would be if they had really recognized that something was shifting and moved to act on it faster. So that's not exactly optimism, but it's kind of like a it could be worse moment.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Well, I, my only pushback on that is that I don't feel like Sam Altman is any. Better than Mark Zuckerberg and in some ways scares me even more. I have to say that there's you guys have seen these these trending videos where people kind of catch chat GPT either being overconfident or or or not able to spell or not able to use a timer and things like that. I love those. They're very, they're very funny and entertaining, but they're also they're they're also incredibly revealing that these AIs are just not operating the way we think they are at all.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  And we've fully anthropomorphized them at this point, but but they're they're flawed. They're deeply flawed. These incredibly simple like in intellectual tests are failing. And also, the thing that's scaring me about those is that is the confidence with which it pushes through them. And it pushes through with an arrogance and a kind of like this reassuring thing that you're wrong. It's like the tone is that you're wrong and that you've asked the wrong question or that you've done by by catching them, you're sort of you're wrong. And I I find that deeply unnerving and weirdly reflective of the leadership of chat GPT.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  And I don't understand the technology, but but in the ways that institutions often can reflect their leaders, that feels like such a literal way in which chat GPT is reflecting Sam Altman, who is now widely reported to be a very untrustworthy person. So and also a bullshit artist, which is what the app is doing in those moments. So

• 40:04Speaker 02

  Well, I was trying to lend a note of optimism, but but you took us right back down to hell. So I just want a note for the record that I tried.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  I'm gonna pull you down in this whirlpool.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  No, but I I don't know. Did that even make sense what I'm saying there?

• 40:22Speaker 02

  I think I think it's a fair point. Now, it's also true that like all of the apps, you know, hallucinate in this same way. But like, is there a sort of general overconfidence and cockiness and bullshittery about the tech world? Yes, absolutely.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  Well, guys, this has been an absolute delight, and I truly have learned a lot from you, which is really exciting for me. And I just want to thank you for being so damn delightful and brilliant. Thanks for coming on.

• 40:49Speaker 02

  Thanks for having us.

• 40:50Speaker 00

  Thank you, Ed. This was so fun.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Snafu is a production of iHeart Podcasts and Snafu Media, a partnership between Film Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company. Post-production and creative support from Good Egg Audio. Our executive producers are me, Ed Helms, Mike Falbo, Glenn Basner, Andy Kim, and Dylan Fagan. This episode was produced by Alyssa Martino and Tori Smith. Our managing producer is Carl Nellis. Our video editor is Jared Smith, technical direction and engineering from Nick Dooley, additional story editing from Carl Nellis. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. Logo and branding by Matt Gosson and The Collected Works. Legal review from Dan Welsh, Megan Halson, and Caroline Johnson.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  Special thanks to Isaac Dunham, Adam Horn, Lane Klein, and everyone at iHeart Podcasts, but especially Will Pearson, Carrie Lieberman, and Nikki Ator. While I have you, don't forget to pick up a copy of my book, Snafu: The Definitive Guide to History's Greatest Screw-Ups. It's available now from any book retailer. Just go to snafu-book.com. Thanks for listening and see you next week.

• 42:11Speaker 05

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