BONUS: Recreating the 1920s with Terence Winter

Ed is joined by writer, producer, and showrunner Terence Winter who shares stories about his New York upbringing and journey into Hollywood, and describes what it took to build a world from a century ago for his hit HBO show, “Boardwalk Empire. ” See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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  Hey there, I'm Ed Helms and this is Snafu, Season Three, Formula Six. How prohibition's war on alcohol went so off the rails, the government wound up poisoning its own people. Welcome to another bonus episode. You may recall, in these bonus episodes, I bring in a guest and just have a great interview. So after spending this season unraveling prohibition, I wanted to talk to someone who knows this era inside and out. Someone who could give us a whole new layer of historical context, color, and detail. So who better than the guy who actually built it, or at least rebuilt it, on TV?

• 2:25Speaker 03

  Enter Terence Winter, the brilliant creator of HBO's Boardwalk Empire. He joins me for a fascinating deep dive into prohibition's gangsters, corrupt officials, and of course, its completely bonkers policies. We talk about his unlikely journey from Brooklyn to Hollywood, including the wild story of how he invented a fake talent agency to get his foot in the door, and how he stumbled upon the real-life Nucky Johnson, the inspiration for his lead character, Nucky Thompson. I also ask him whether Formula 6 was ever on his radar, and dig into some of the not entirely coincidental parallels between his fictionalized characters and the real people we covered this season.

• 3:09Speaker 03

  And honestly, just as a fellow showbiz guy, I had a blast nerding out with him, because who doesn't love a peek behind the curtain of a great TV show? So, settle in, grab a stiff drink, preferably non-poisoned, and enjoy my conversation with Terence Winter.

• 3:38Speaker 04

  Hey, it's so good to meet you, man.

• 3:40Speaker 03

  You too. It's so, so great to meet you.

• 3:42Speaker 04

  Honestly, I didn't know you were a history guy.

• 3:45Speaker 03

  You know, there's such a cool overlap of this season of Snafu, which is all about prohibition, and we'll get into some of the really surprising things that I learned and researched for this season that might even be surprising to you as an expert on prohibition because of your incredible series Boardwalk Empire. But let's start a little more broadly, so our listeners can get to know you a little bit better. Where are you from originally? What was your sort of path to Hollywood writer?

• 4:20Speaker 04

  I grew up in Marine Park, Brooklyn, which is an area that I usually have to describe by its proximity to other neighborhoods in Brooklyn that people have heard of. You may have heard of Sheepshead Bay, which actually was an integral neighborhood in terms of prohibition because boats used to come right in there, and that's kind of near Coney Island. So, you know, basically, blue collar family, blue collar neighborhood. I actually studied to be an auto mechanic in high school, and that didn't stick. I took a detour into the deli business, eventually figured out that I needed to go to college, eventually went to law school, practiced law for two years, hated it, and then my deep, dark secret was I had always wanted to be a sitcom writer, which was something that, you know, on the

• 5:02Speaker 04

  East Coast in the 70s, you dare not tell your friends that you wanted to go to Hollywood and be anything.

• 5:09Speaker 03

  I had a similar thing. And growing up in Georgia, I harbored these deep aspirations from a very young age, but I knew I could never tell anyone.

• 5:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, you're ass kicked.

• 5:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, either get beat up, or they would just crush your dreams.

• 5:24Speaker 04

  Absolutely, which is what friends are for. Can I curse on this?

• 5:28Speaker 03

  Hell, yes, or fuck, yes.

• 5:31Speaker 04

  Okay, good, because it's very difficult for me to talk without. Yeah, I do hold the record for the most uses of the word fuck in a movie, Wolf of Wall Street, which I'm very proud of. So it's very hard for me to have a conversation. So that'll slip out occasionally. Anyway, once I came out of the closet as a writer, I just said, I'm moving to LA, and I'm going to figure this out. I showed up here in 1991, and I just kind of plunged in, and I started out, you know, attempting to be a sitcom writer, and then eventually just morphed into drama that kind of had comedy in it. So I just got incredibly lucky and still lucky to be doing that kind of stuff.

• 6:05Speaker 03

  So, growing up in Brooklyn, and then heading off to law school, did you then become a lawyer in Brooklyn?

• 6:13Speaker 04

  I was a lawyer in Manhattan. You know, my only ambition as a kid was I wanted to be rich, because we were not. And the only two jobs I knew that could make you rich were doctor and lawyer. The doctor was out. And I remember there was a quote by Benjamin Franklin, and he said, Pour thy purse into thy head and no man can take it from you. You know what, get an education, basically. Yeah, that's a beautiful quote. I like that. Yeah, I love that. So it's a creative writing. Eventually, I stumbled onto journalism. And, you know, again, you know, my ambition was to make money. That was what a good job was. The concept of liking your job was something, you know, you just want to make money. So lawyer was the thing. So I had another professor, journalism professor named Jerry Schwartz,

• 6:56Speaker 04

  who was a managing editor at the Associated Press. And I asked him to write me a recommendation for law school. And he did. He wrote me this glowing recommendation. He gave it to me in a vanilla envelope. And he said, there's another letter in there for you personally. And that letter said, please don't go to law school. Please be a writer. And I was like, holy shit, this is the second adult who's told me I'm a good writer. Good thing you didn't submit that letter to the law school by accident. I might have saved me a lot of time. Meanwhile, all my friends who became auto mechanics were making a fortune. And they all thought I was the biggest idiot in the world, Joe College. You know, I'm already now in the hole student loan wise from NYU. And I was like, all right, there's only one way forward, and that's to law school.

• 7:39Speaker 04

  So I did that, went at night, worked for Merrill Lynch during the day as the legal assistant to one of the lawyers who counseled the trading people. And graduated, got a job at a big Manhattan law firm, passed the New York bar, the Connecticut bar. And my first week there, I realized I had made a grave, grave error. I hated it. I didn't, I just couldn't give a shit about any of it. Within about a week and a half, I was sneaking out during the day, going to movies, bookstores. I just, two years in, I couldn't get out of bed in the morning. I just didn't want to go there. So it was really, you know, it was very, you know, really pivotal. Were you making good money there? Yeah, yeah, it was great. I had everything I thought I wanted.

• 8:23Speaker 04

  I had an assistant. I had an office. I had a diploma written in Latin. I was like, holy shit, look at me. I'm a lawyer. And was that, did you go to NYU law school also? No, I went to St. John's Law School, which is the Harvard of Queens. Sure. And I was in the top 5% of the bottom third of my class. So I was very proud of that. Again, it was like, I wasn't even thinking in terms of, are you happy? Yeah. And, you know, it was, I was like 29 at this point. And I had that moment like, okay, you were gonna either jump out a window in 10 years from the depression of working somewhere you just don't like, and you'd never be good at this because you don't like it. What do you want to do when you wake up in the morning? And I was like, all right, well, maybe I'd be a salesman, you know, because I liked

• 9:07Speaker 04

  to bullshit. And then I was like, all right. And then there's a little voice that said, come on, it's not salesman. What is it? And it's like, all right, well, an ad copywriter, maybe I could do that. And then even the voice like, come on, go deeper. And then it was finally, I want to go to fucking Hollywood and write sitcoms. And once I said that out loud, it was like, everything changed. But then I thought, all right, well, I remember this bit in Mr. Saturday Night with Billy Crystal, where he talked about the idea of you're either living room funny, or you're really funny. You know, you could be funny with your friends. And yeah, I'm the funniest guy in the group. Can you do that for real? And I thought, all right, well, I think I can. And I thought the fastest way to figure

• 9:49Speaker 04

  this out is write my own material and do stand up. And if I can get people to laugh, then I'm legit. I wasn't particularly interested in being a stand up, but I wanted to see, am I crazy? Or am I funny? Or I really am funny? So for a couple of months, right around that time, I was doing stand up at Catch a Rising Star.

• 10:06Speaker 03

  And this is what year?

• 10:07Speaker 04

  Comic strip, 90, 1990.

• 10:09Speaker 03

  1990. Wow. What a great time in those clubs.

• 10:13Speaker 04

  Yeah. And it was interesting, too, because it was like, this young woman named Sarah Silverman.

• 10:18Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 10:19Speaker 04

  Holy shit. Chris Rock was still around. You know, I was like, these are the real deal. You know, and I was doing open mics and watching these people and going, oh, man, you know, like a young Sarah Silverman was just great to see that. And then to watch her career after that was great. But, you know, I did okay. You know, I get on at 2:00 in the morning to three people. And it's, okay, I said something, they laughed, great, that worked, this worked, that. And then once I, once I've said, okay, I'm not crazy, then I was like, all right, I'm doing this.

• 10:44Speaker 03

  So you stopped doing stand up and then dove in. That's so interesting that that crucible of stand up was your sort of testing ground. And it was, I had a similar, similar path. I knew that I wanted to work in comedy. And to me, Stand up was sort of like, all right, if you're serious, you know, get into it. And I, I got right into that same circuit you were in, but like the next sort of timeframe. So I started in about 97, 98 and, and I love, I still relish my years in the New York City stand up.

• 11:21Speaker 04

  It's and for anybody who's never done it, I mean, you know, it's funny if you think like, they said like, one of the biggest fears people have is speaking in public.

• 11:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:29Speaker 04

  Speaking in public with the agenda of also trying to get people to laugh.

• 11:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:33Speaker 04

  Is like, and it's funny, you do a bit or you say a joke and people don't laugh. It's like getting punched in the face.

• 11:39Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:40Speaker 04

  It is like, it is no sound louder than people not laughing.

• 11:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, they say.

• 11:43Speaker 04

  When you think they're going to.

• 11:45Speaker 03

  Let's say you're like a string quartet or, or like even a great professor at a university giving a lecture. Most performers will get up in front of an audience and the audience actually wants them to succeed.

• 12:00Speaker 04

  Right.

• 12:00Speaker 03

  Not true in comedy clubs. A lot of audience members in a comedy club want you to bomb. They want, they want to feel the train wreck. They're there to see the, the just car crash, but wow, that's, that's awesome. Okay. So then, then Hollywood and you just moved out and.

• 12:19Speaker 04

  I just moved out. I did not know a soul. I literally sold everything I had. I was not in a relationship at the time and I just showed up here on May 8th, 1991. I got a room in a horrible SRO hotel is actually in MacArthur Park. And now I was like, all right, I have to figure out. So I went down to the Writers Guild and this was just complete luck. They had a list of new agents or young agents who were actually looking for clients. And on that list was a guy I went to law school with, who sat four seats away from me.

• 12:52Speaker 03

  Oh, wow.

• 12:53Speaker 04

  And his name was Doug Viviani. He's not an agent, so don't call him. But I called him and I said, what are you doing? He's, are you an agent? He goes, no, I, I'm a real estate attorney and a client of mine wrote a book on real estate and I used the fee to get bonded as an agent, but I don't know anything about being an agent. I said, well, congratulations. You're my agent. What are you talking about? I'm in LA. I'm writing, I'm trying to be a writer. I need an agent. I said, so I'm gonna create the Doug Viviani Agency out of a mailbox, etc. And we're gonna get letterhead and a phone mail, and I'm gonna submit my work under your letterhead. And if I get anything, you get 10%, like an agent. And he said, great. So that's what I did.

• 13:28Speaker 03

  So you were your own agent?

• 13:29Speaker 04

  I was my own agent.

• 13:30Speaker 03

  He was just the sort of like nominal agent.

• 13:32Speaker 04

  He was like, you know, the guy on Charlie's Angels. So I did that, and I photocopied all my scripts. And this is back, you know, this is now like 1992. When you could do this, I would just pull up to the Warner Brothers lot, for example, and say, yeah, I'm the messenger from the Doug Viviani Agency. I have some scripts I need to drop off. And I just hit every sitcom office in LA. And there was like 30 of them at the time. And I addressed, you know, here's my scripts to the showrunner, from an agent. And now at least my scripts are in the building where theoretically, if lightning struck, I could at least have a shot.

• 14:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:04Speaker 04

  And I don't know, about a week or so into it, I got a, there's a phone message on the Doug Viviani voicemail line. And it's a woman, she said, yeah, hi, my name is Winifred Hervey-Stalworth, I'm the executive producer of Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. I read Terry Winter's stuff. I'm interested in having him in maybe to pitch. So I said, oh, my God. So I called Doug in New York, and it was a Friday. He was gone for the weekend. I was like, oh, shit, I gotta wait till Monday now. And I was like, you know what? Doug doesn't really know anything about being an agent. I'll just be Doug. And I called her back and I said, yeah, hi.

• 14:34Speaker 03

  This is so Donald Trump of you.

• 14:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, John Barron calling. So, yeah, and I have no idea what agents did or said. The only agent I ever saw was Reuben Kincaid on The Partridge Family. And he didn't seem to do much. But I figured, you know what? Let me just, I'm just gonna wing it. And she said, yeah, yeah, we read his stuff. He's really, you know, talented. I said, oh, he's a kid's amazing. So she said, does he have like one more teenage oriented script? Because you know, Fresh Prince is kind of a teenage show. I said, yeah, he just finished an incredible episode of The Wonder Years. But I don't have a copy of it. I won't have it until, so I'm trying to calculate in my head how long is it gonna take to write a Wonder Years episode? So it was Friday. I go, I can get it to you two mon, late Tuesday afternoon, if that works. She goes, yeah, fine, great. So hung up the phone and cranked out a

• 15:20Speaker 04

  Wonder Years episode, went in, gave it in. Now he was the messenger, I was the lawyer, I was everybody.

• 15:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:25Speaker 04

  And they had me in to pitch an idea and that was, that became my foot in the door. I sold them on an idea that ultimately never went anywhere. But that was my first shot. And a little after I got into a thing called the Warner Brothers Sitcom Writers Workshop, they used to do, they would take 15 people from a pool of hundreds around the country and they'd put you through a program. At the end of it, they called me in, they said, "We have an interesting situation. We have a show we think you'd be great for. It's not a sitcom and this isn't a reflection of your sitcom writing. It's a drama that has comedy in it." And I said, "Well, why me?" And they said, "Well, it's about a blue collar guy who's a lawyer who works for a big stuffy law firm. Do you think you could do that?" And I was like, "If I don't get this fucking job..." I said, "Yeah, that's basically my

• 16:05Speaker 04

  life story. So yeah." And that was my actual first staff job. It was a show called The Great Defender with Michael Rispoli, Peter Kraus, Richard Kiley, who was Manu La Mancha. And thank God that I've been working ever since that show.

• 16:20Speaker 03

  Wow. Incredible. Incredible story. There's a thread here, which is grit and moxie and a sort of never seeing an obstacle as an obstacle, but yeah, but it's just something to work around. And

• 16:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, especially with this. I was not taking no for an answer.

• 16:42Speaker 03

  So where do you, where do you think that came from? Growing up? Like, were you a scrappy kid in Brooklyn?

• 16:46Speaker 04

  I mean, I, yeah, I mean, I grew up, I was 13, I started working for a butcher shop that was owned by Paul Castellano, who's the head of the Gambino family. When I was 16, I worked in an illegal card game run out of a synagogue in our neighborhood that was run by a guy named Roy DeMeo, who's the subject of a book called Murder Machine. He and his crew in the early 80s killed more people than the Iraqi army at the time, I think was the, the statistic. He had a bar in my neighborhood. So by osmosis, I just kind of knew those guys. I also just became fascinated with crime and criminals. Actually, somebody asked me this, like, what was the first thing? And it sounds quaint now, but it was the movie Oliver. I loved the idea of being part of that gang of pickpockets that was like

• 17:30Speaker 04

  I wanted to be the I wanted to be the artful dodger.

• 17:33Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 17:33Speaker 04

  That looks so cool to me. And right around that time, I read Abby Hoffman had this book called Steal This Book.

• 17:38Speaker 03

  Of course, yeah.

• 17:39Speaker 04

  Which was my bible. And it was the first time of like, oh, wow, you can scam shit. And then the sting came out. And I was like, oh, my God, using your brain to psych people out and get what you want. And I just became fascinated with the idea of using psychology or human nature to sort of, you know, get my way through the world. And I just sort of, yeah, became that guy and that kid, you know, who was always the, even to this day, my initial instinct, if I'm presented with a problem, I always think of what's the way to scam my way through this. And I go, yeah, you can just pay it. You can just pay the bill. You don't need to do this.

• 18:17Speaker 03

  Right, right, right.

• 18:18Speaker 04

  But that's right where I go. What lie do I tell to get? And I go, you're, that's you from when you're 15 years old.

• 18:25Speaker 03

  But wow.

• 18:26Speaker 04

  It was so ingrained.

• 18:27Speaker 03

  Well, that's a pretty good transition point for us because you had a kind of exposure to that criminal element in Brooklyn. Is that what made you such a perfect candidate for one of your biggest staff jobs at The Sopranos there?

• 18:43Speaker 04

  I think so, yeah. When I, when I saw that pilot, my agent at the time sent it to me and, you know, like most people, I thought, opera? What is this? And I don't even think I finished watching it. And I was, I was like trembling. I was like, I know these guys. I know these people. I know how they talk and how they think. I called him up and said, you gotta get me on this show.

• 19:03Speaker 03

  So the real life mob life was not for you. It was not something that, that even attracted you from a sort of like romantic or exotic sense, which I think is draws a lot of people into that space. But the fictional mob space was right where you felt at home.

• 19:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, that, yeah, that I love. I love that stuff. And, um,

• 19:27Speaker 03

  It's like all the fun of, of the mafia with none of the danger.

• 19:32Speaker 04

  It's like I say, why people ride roller coasters. It's like you feel like you're about to die, but you're not actually gonna die. How exhilarating.

• 19:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:38Speaker 04

  So writing about it, you know, was much preferable for me.

• 19:42Speaker 03

  All right, I could go on for hours. I love hearing about your career and all the machinations and steps you took. It's my favorite thing, is just learning about how people got where they wanted to be. And you have an incredible story. But let's turn the page and get into kind of where you and I actually have this interesting overlap, which is in our shared fascination with the prohibition era. I think most people assume they know what prohibition is. Liquor was made illegal. It was a big mistake. There was a bunch of mobsters and Tommy Guns, and then it got repealed. You made this incredible show, Boardwalk Empire.

• 20:26Speaker 03

  What drew you to prohibition in the first place? I mean, I could make an obvious leap from The Sopranos to prohibition-era gangsters being the overlap. But was there anything about that era in particular that felt so ripe for storytelling?

• 20:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I was given a book by HBO called Boardwalk Empire about the history of Atlantic City. And they said, maybe there's a TV series in here. I said, okay, the history of Atlantic City, that sounds great. But on the way out the door, they said, oh, Martin Scorsese is attached to that book. And I was like, oh, okay, well, that's a different story. I will find the TV series in here.

• 21:07Speaker 03

  You're right.

• 21:07Speaker 04

  So I started reading, and there was a chapter about this guy named Nucky Johnson, who I later fictionalized as Nucky Thompson. But Nucky was the corrupt treasurer of Atlantic City during the prohibition era, where, you know, you have a corrupt politician in charge of a city on the eastern seaboard, where all the alcohol comes through. And suddenly overnight, he was friends with Lucky Luciano and Arnold Rothstein and Al Capone and everybody else. I went, this is the series, this guy, this era. And I was like, I love the 20s, you know, that snappy, fast-talking 1920s stuff. I've always been fascinated with that kind of dialogue. The era, you know, was also interesting to me, too, is that even though it's 100 years ago, it still felt modern. People dressed in suits, they went out to restaurants, they talked on the telephone, they drove

• 21:52Speaker 04

  Car, you know, it still felt cool. It still felt like accessible. It wasn't like 10 years earlier would have felt like, you know, Downton Abbey, but this was modern. You know, you could wear some of those clothes today. Yeah. And I said, wow, this is such a great setup and it's really not really been explored in TV or film. So when I went to meet, I'll call him Marty because I know him and I know it sounds douchey, but that's his name. When I went to meet Marty, when I went to meet Mr. Scorsese, and believe me, that's what I called him initially, he was like, oh, this is great. I've never done anything in this era before. So once he gave me the blessing, you know, we were off to the races and then, you know, the real work started. They had to, you know, we had a protagonist who was like 50 years old in 1920. So I was like,

• 22:35Speaker 04

  okay, so he was born in 1870. So God, what books did he read? What was his pop culture references? What was happening in 1920? There's the war, World War I just ended. He had all these guys coming home. Women just got the right to vote. Prohibition itself. What were the movies? So it was like a ton of research, you know? Also, how did people actually talk? I'm sure they didn't all say 23 skidoo every five minutes. Dude, the Charleston was like every time you ever see anything in the 20s, everybody's doing the fucking Charleston. I was like, did they do, is there any other songs written between 1920 and 1930? And it's funny. I mean, I wanted to do a thing where, you know, it was like that Nucky at some point says, if I hear the Charleston one more time, I'm going to kill somebody.

• 23:17Speaker 04

  And it actually didn't come out till 1924 anyway. So we didn't even touch on it until way late. But yeah, it was just sort of, once I started doing the research, it was just fascinating. Not, not just all the other stuff, but the prohibition stuff itself was so eye opening in terms of the history of how it, how it even came to be. And then what a disaster it became, you know, the, the single biggest thing that made criminals millionaires overnight. And it was like outlawing turkey sandwiches. It was like, most people didn't give, like, wait, what? I've been drinking beer my whole life. Now I can't do it? Fuck you. I'm going to keep doing this. And just so many failed consequences of that law.

• 23:58Speaker 05

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• 25:24Speaker 03

  It is truly a wild moment in American history, the sort of moral panic on one hand, and then there's the anti-German sentiment kind of like flaring up, and then that gives the teetotalers ammunition to...

• 25:42Speaker 04

  Go after the brewers.

• 25:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, to go after all these German brewers.

• 25:45Speaker 04

  It was a perfect storm. I mean, yeah, you're at war with Germany, and now suddenly, you know, coleslaw is liberty cabbage. And hamburgers or liberty sandwiches. And I mean, I think half the brewers got shut down. And I got where it came from. You know, there were, it was alcoholism was devastating. You know, the cliche is the dad, you know, got paid on Friday and then you didn't see him and spent all his money at the bar and, you know, and your family went destitute. This is in days before social programs or even before AA was a thing, I guess. So there was a real, it was a real problem.

• 26:22Speaker 03

  So Nucky Thompson is a character that was played by Steve Buscemi. How close to the real Nucky Johnson was he?

• 26:32Speaker 04

  Not at all.

• 26:33Speaker 03

  Not at all.

• 26:34Speaker 04

  If we were to cast the real, we were to cast somebody who looked like Nucky Johnson, Jim Gandolfini would have actually been perfect. Nucky was a big, burly, bald headed guy.

• 26:43Speaker 03

  So I feel like Steve Buscemi's casting was such a stroke of genius for Boardwalk Empire because it is against type. And in a way that, you know, can this guy who's, who's sort of a slight build, not an intimidating presence, and whose face to me just has a sort of, kind of warmth and sadness and a sort of tenderness, can this guy carry a mob show? Tell me a little bit about why Steve Buscemi was so perfect for Boardwalk Empire.

• 27:17Speaker 04

  You know, it started with, with Marty. You know, we said, all right, who are we going to get to do this? And yeah, I said, well, this is what the real guy looked like. And Marty said, well, no one's ever heard of this guy. Which is also funny because when I went down to do my research in Atlantic City, the real Nucky between like 1910 and 1930 was hands down the most powerful guy in Atlantic City. Everybody knew him. Nothing moved without Nucky. And when I went down initially and talked to old timers and people, have you ever heard of Nucky Johnson? No, never heard of him, never heard of him. After the show, oh yeah, Nucky, my uncle worked for Nucky. Suddenly everybody knew who he was, but nobody knew who this guy was. So Marty, you know, very, you know, correctly said, it doesn't matter, we can cast anybody. And then he just said, well, who, let's, let's just name actors we like.

• 27:59Speaker 03

  Ed Helms.

• 28:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, Ed Helms was not available.

• 28:02Speaker 03

  Not available.

• 28:04Speaker 04

  And I said, well, Steve Buscemi, I always, I always loved Steve. And he goes, oh, I love Steve Buscemi. And we rattled off a couple of other names. And then he's like, all right, whatever. And a couple of days later, Marty called me up. He said, I can't stop thinking about Steve for this. And I said, yeah, me too. I said, isn't that crazy? I see, he says, yeah, yeah. And it's funny, even Steve, when I called him, he knew he was in the running. And when I called him to tell him he got the role, I said, Steve, you know, we're, we're really excited. We, we want to offer you this role. And he said, hey, look, you know, it was really just an honor to be considered. And then I said, Steve, no, I'm, we're giving you the role. And he's like, what? He goes, I've been preparing myself for two weeks to not get this. I didn't even hear you. I didn't even let that register. I said, yeah, no, you got it. We're doing this. And he's like, holy shit.

• 28:49Speaker 04

  And then of course, you know, he went on, you know, I think he won the Screen Actors Guild a couple of times in a row and Emmy nominations and, you know, people just loved him. He totally sold it and pulled it off, obviously. He's Steve Buscemi.

• 29:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, he is. I would imagine, you know, your collaboration as a showrunner with the wardrobe department and the production design department and the props department was so fun on a project like this and so cool. And then of course, your music team, both the score and, you know, your needle drops in the, throughout the, the episodes. What, what are some things that stood out to you in that, in that research process that were either surprising or especially exciting or fun to think about and, and write about? And were there things that came up in that, in that process that, that inspired moments in the show?

• 29:39Speaker 04

  Mm hmm. I like, loved, like the, all the wardrobe stuff, the hair stuff. One of the things I, I loved was a little detail that in, I don't know, somewhere in 1916, the Gillette Company invented the safety razor. Up until that point, men shaved themselves with a straight razor. So facial hair was a big thing. So a lot of guys had beards and mutton chops and all these crazy, everybody had facial hair up until 1917. Suddenly that was the, the, the safety razor came out. So young people. Started looking at facial hair as, oh yeah, that's your dad. That's your grandpa. So we, somewhere around season two, I would start seeing young people with mustaches in

• 30:22Speaker 04

  the crowd of extras or on the show. And I mentioned it to our hair person a few times, and I mentioned it to our extras casting person. I said, do not send me any young men with facial hair. And it kept popping up, and it started to drive me crazy. So I actually got the yearbook from Princeton University of 1922. And I went into the hair department, and I said, find me one man in this book with facial hair. And there was not one college student that had a mustache or a beard in 1922. I said, that's the level of accuracy we need to have here. And I did. I had the A-plus team of every department had hair, makeup, wardrobe, music, production, production design, just crazy details.

• 31:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, you can tell.

• 31:02Speaker 04

  You know, like wardrobe is like, you know, drives me crazy if you see a show set in 1920, everybody's dressed like it's 1920. You know, I don't know about you, but I've, you know, I have guest jeans from the 90s probably that I still have. Actually, my wife has called me on shit like that a couple of times, like, you've got to, you know, you got to get rid of it. So not everybody dresses like it's 2024. Most people don't. You know, if you're really hip, and maybe you're in New York or LA, maybe you do, but you sure don't. And if you're a working class guy in Atlantic City, you dress like it's 1893.

• 31:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:30Speaker 04

  You know, so I needed, we needed a smattering of that. And everybody took such pride in it, too. I remember even once, a big debate about a chain link fence. You know, I didn't even bring it up, but our production designer, he said, you know, we had a chain link fence somewhere. And he said, before you say anything, yes, they had chain link fences in 1920, they're invented in 1905. I think, okay, take it easy. He goes, I didn't know myself, and I had to check this out. But yeah, they had chain link fences back then. So yeah, like, stuff like that.

• 31:55Speaker 03

  Ah, I love that. And it just informs all the, the actors on the set. It gives them all these, these kind of anchors and reference points to latch on to. So most prohibition crime stories center around the male bootleggers. But Boardwalk features a lot of extremely unique and morally gray and enterprising female characters. Margaret Thompson, Gillian Darmody, being a couple of standouts. What was the inspiration for those incredible characters?

• 32:30Speaker 04

  In the book Boardwalk Empire, Nelson Johnson fictionalized a meeting between the real Nucky and a woman from the neighborhood who came to ask to get her husband a job. And he said, this is the kind of thing Nucky would do. You know, people worked in the hotel business in the summer months, it was great, but during the winter, people were out of work, and if your husband, you know, drank and didn't have money, you know, you were going without food. So, he talked about a little fictional encounter between a neighborhood woman and Nucky, and Nucky would give her fifty dollars to tide her over for the month, whatever. And I said, that's interesting, that's an interesting relationship. I wonder who that is, who is that woman? And then I, you know, I just took it from there. Like,

• 33:12Speaker 04

  okay, what if, what if he's interested romantically, and what if her husband is a creep, and he beats her up, and Nucky gets rid of him, and where does that go? So that became Margaret. Gillian Darmody just came, you know, I knew Jimmy Darmody was coming home from World War I. And this was, again, we had one of those happy or not happy accidents of prohibition. World War I ended, and you had a lot of disenfranchised soldiers coming home after horrific experiences overseas. And I think most Americans, even to this day, have no idea how incredibly brutal World War I was. Trench warfare, and just absolutely just horrific, guys living up to their, up to their waists in filth and rat-infested water, and, you know, just

• 33:54Speaker 04

  shooting at each other, and for no, they didn't even know why they were there. But it was really horrible. So a lot of these guys came home-

• 34:00Speaker 03

  And chemical warfare.

• 34:01Speaker 04

  Oh, chemical, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, and a lot of guys came home, and, you know, our character on the show, Richard Harrow, you know, who was the guy with the half-face and the mask, you know, played by Jack Houston, that was the first time that, you know, battlefield medicine got to the point where you could keep people alive. And well, because it was trench warfare, there were so many, then inordinate amount of facial injuries. Guys would poke their heads up from a trench, and boom, get half of their face blown off. Normally, you know, twenty years earlier, you're dead. But now battlefield medicine got to the point where you could keep those people alive. So those guys were coming home alive. So thousands of guys were coming home with- Facial injuries, literally like half your face blown off or your jaw blown off.

• 34:45Speaker 04

  And then they had to get into society. So there was an artist in New England, a woman who was a sculptor, who thought, I wonder if I could do like a half mask to match their face. So these guys could at least go out in public or go out at night and just go. And that's where that character came from. But again, it was just these little details in the research.

• 35:04Speaker 03

  There's another formidable female character in Boardwalk Empire, Assistant Attorney General Esther Randolph.

• 35:11Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 35:12Speaker 03

  Who attempts to prosecute Nucky.

• 35:13Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 35:14Speaker 03

  Now, she's presumably based on the real world.

• 35:18Speaker 04

  Mabel Walker Willibrand.

• 35:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:20Speaker 04

  Yeah. Who fascinating character.

• 35:22Speaker 03

  Yeah. So we talked a lot about her in Snafu. I'm just curious kind of what your research brought to light, what excited you about her as a character. She's such a mess of contradictions.

• 35:33Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, the one thing I loved is that when prohibition ended, she went to work for a wine company. It's like, and even like, she wasn't averse to having a drink herself, but it's like once she became like, okay, you know, I'm doing this. She was really staunchly trying to enforce those laws. And of course, her bosses were just unbelievably corrupt. Harry Darty, Warren Harding, that whole administration was just like, you know, you can't, and that's another thing that just surprised me about the era, you know, again, it's, you know, the idea of corrupt politicians. These guys were selling shit right out of the White House. I mean, you literally, you know, they were bootleggers who were showing up at the Capitol with suitcases full of stuff, selling it, you know, selling

• 36:14Speaker 04

  their stuff to congresspeople and like, you could buy anything you wanted from Harry Darty and his guy, Jess Smith. And just another fascinating relationship.

• 36:23Speaker 03

  And George Cassidy is a character that is a real life bootlegger who actually had an office in the Capitol building where he was distributing liquors to congresspeople.

• 36:35Speaker 04

  Right.

• 36:36Speaker 03

  That's very similar to your character, Gaston Meens in Boardwalk Empire, who was kind of a supplier to high level folks.

• 36:46Speaker 04

  Right. Yeah. And a real guy. Yeah. I mean, the more we would research this, the more. Incredible it became. You know, another detail too, Al Capone's brother, one of his brothers was moved out to the West and became a sheriff and he was like a cowboy sheriff who would arrest bootleggers.

• 37:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:02Speaker 04

  And we like, we gotta get this on the show and we could never work it in, but it's like just these little odds and ends. You're like, holy shit, this actually was real.

• 37:09Speaker 03

  It's so cool to hear you, you touch on these things that, that we also dig into in, in Snafu and some of these, these strange and more obscure connections.

• 37:21Speaker 04

  Or George Remus too, another one, like one of the craziest stories here, like incredibly successful defense attorney becomes like the biggest bootlegger ever and then loses everything, goes to jail and then his wife completely steals all of his money with, in conjunction with a federal agent who she has an affair with. And then he gets out of jail and then murders her and then is found not guilty by reason of insanity. He represented himself and he, with a temporary insanity plea. And it's like, if I made that up, you've got, come on. And this absolutely all happened.

• 37:55Speaker 03

  And Willibrand prosecuted him and he's part of what led to the federal government taxing illegal liquor.

• 38:04Speaker 04

  Right.

• 38:05Speaker 03

  Which is just another insane layer to all of this.

• 38:08Speaker 04

  Yeah. Why would you think you would have to do that? But yeah, I mean, I guess it's the same principle now. Like you go, okay, well, I don't care how you earned your money, even if it's illegal, you have to still have to pay taxes on it.

• 38:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 38:18Speaker 04

  And that's I guess how they, they get, you know, they get Al Capone, you know, for, for tax evasion. It's like, I know you said you were a furniture salesman, but you've got a million dollars here. So, okay.

• 38:58Speaker 06

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• 39:57Speaker 03

  I just was gonna kind of bring it back to this overarching theme throughout that era of hypocrisy. Sometimes it's kind of buried and sometimes it's just outrageous and flagrant, like we discussed George Cassidy and these bootleggers supplying the lawmakers who are passing the laws of prohibition with alcohol. I'm curious if you hit on in your research, are you familiar with Formula Six? I am not. Yeah, so one of the things we get into in this season of Snap Fu is this really staggering realization

• 40:38Speaker 03

  that for a long time, the government was putting additives into industrial alcohol to prevent people from drinking it. And these were things that made industrial alcohol, this process was called denaturing. Right. And it made alcohol incredibly yucky to imbibe, but it also made people a bit sick, just enough to keep people from drinking it. And that was going on for decades before prohibition. Industrial alcohol had a lot of uses, obviously. Then during prohibition.

• 41:12Speaker 03

  Formula Six emerges and in order to try to dissuade people from drinking alcohol, they start adding real poison to alcohol in levels sufficient to kill people.

• 41:25Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 41:26Speaker 03

  We get into the really remarkable story of the New York City Medical Examiner's Office, Charles Norris and Alexander Getler, who kind of pieced this together by examining the corpses of a lot of people dying and sort of, and starting to see patterns of different chemicals and poisonings, and also at the same time, revolutionizing chemistry in the service of toxicology and medical examination as a practice.

• 41:55Speaker 04

  Right.

• 41:56Speaker 03

  These were relatively new at the time and Alexander Getler is credited with really kind of inventing a lot of processes to, to figure out what chemicals were in dead bodies or in human tissue. Anyway, it's just wild what they start to piece together.

• 42:11Speaker 04

  So I have to assume formulas two through five were varying degrees of how bad is this gonna be? Like why, yeah, the formula four is like diarrhea, that's not enough. We gotta really get like, you know, you know, but blisters now, let's like.

• 42:27Speaker 03

  Formula five knocks you out for like a week.

• 42:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 42:30Speaker 03

  Formula six?

• 42:31Speaker 04

  Formula six, you're not drinking anymore.

• 42:33Speaker 03

  You're dead.

• 42:34Speaker 04

  So, yeah, I was very aware of the fact that bootleggers would incorporate, sometime it got to the point where they'd mix turpentine, they'd mix wood alcohol, you know, all of which, you know, into their shitty, you know, uh, you know, home manufacturer stuff and that was killing people, making people blind.

• 42:50Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 42:51Speaker 04

  There was a rash of people who went blind, I think it was in New York City, like 18 people over the course of a weekend who all drank the same bootleg alcohol. I'm wondering now if, if, was that some of the stuff that the government was actually now sneaking into the criminal, like how were people getting government poisoned liquor?

• 43:07Speaker 03

  There was a drink called Derail because it was an alcohol that was used in, in the industrial railroad industry.

• 43:15Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 43:16Speaker 03

  And it was, uh, and it was making people terribly sick. That was basically bootleg. Bootleggers, just using industrial alcohol to enhance their product.

• 43:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, formaldehyde too, is when we actually did that on the show, actually showing somebody using it. Anything, and it's interesting too, like this is the, people don't realize, like the advent of the mixed drink came because of prohibition, because the bootleg alcohol was so vile, they had to start mixing it with fruit juices and stuff. So, all the stuff that we know today, you know, up until prohibition, it was, you know, straight whiskey, beer, you know, it was just straight alcohol, wasn't, you know, and you do, you just drank it to get drunk quickly, I guess. I don't know, there's a lot of sipping going on, but it was, you know, suddenly all the drinks that you hear about today, you know, are, you know, come from the, the need to make this stuff

• 44:05Speaker 04

  palatable. And, you know, what, what killed me too, is I, I love the details, the lengths bootleggers would go to in terms of creating false labels, getting the bottle, filling it up with alcohol. There was one which the detail that blew my mind, that they would create a whole false crate of alcohol, put them in fishing nets, like a bunch of them, and then take the fishing nets and dunk it in the water, leave it in seawater for a couple of hours, and come out, you know, you dump this big fishing net full of crates that say Johnny Walker, or whatever it was, and there's still seaweed on it, and you go, nobody would ever think you faked this, but they, the lengths they would go to, to make stuff that was fake look real. You go, wow, I mean, and that appealed to the con man in

• 44:49Speaker 04

  me, I go, wow, what a brilliant little touch. You could still smell the salt water, it's obviously came out of, off a boat in the ocean. It's like, no, this is made in some guy's garage.

• 44:57Speaker 03

  That's no different than you calling up Paramount, pretending to be your own agent.

• 45:01Speaker 04

  Not at all. But yeah, it's like, wow, that's, that's, you know, and that's, I think, what people don't realize, that criminals, 24 hours a day, is people thinking about how to do this shit, you know, it's pretty, pretty incredible. And then even there's the hypocrisy too, and thinking like, as you were talking, you know, the, the whole, the Catholic Church, you know, sacrificial wine, suddenly, they had unbelievable demand for sacrificial wine, and the Jewish churches, suddenly, you know, everybody was a rabbi that, because there was an excuse. Like you could do it for religious

• 45:34Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 45:35Speaker 04

  Things or doctors, how many doctors writing prescriptions?

• 45:37Speaker 03

  We're running low on Manischewitz.

• 45:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:40Speaker 03

  We just need another, need another order.

• 45:41Speaker 04

  Selling it out your back door and how many, you know, neighborhood people had stills in their kitchen? You know, you could make, you know, extra money by, you know, you'd have guys like entire tenement buildings. Everybody had a little still and, you know, you could make an extra 20 bucks a week in 1920. That was a fortune. That was your grocery money, I'm assuming, or more. And, uh, the local gangsters would just come around and pick everything up and sell it. And this went on for years. And again, you know, all unintended consequences of this. And again, back to me, back to what the point I made before about this making millionaires out of criminals overnight. This is how organized crime infiltrated legitimate business. They needed a place to put all that money and it's like, great, let's buy trucking companies, which they initially did to, uh, transport all this stuff.

• 46:25Speaker 04

  Then it was like, you know, let's buy warehouses, let's buy real estate, let's get into other things. And this, over that 12-year period, enabled them to infiltrate every other area of, of American life.

• 46:36Speaker 03

  And, uh, It's, it's almost like the scale of the stupidity of prohibition as, uh, as a law is commensurate with the scale of how, uh, how much organized crime then penetrated American society.

• 46:57Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 46:58Speaker 03

  In other words, the fallout of prohibition is commensurate with the stupidity of it in the first place.

• 47:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, up until prohibition, most organized crime was, you know, gambling, prostitution, extortion, things of that nature that were, I guess lucrative, but not, this was just a, a windfall that they couldn't have even possibly predicted. And I mean, I guess, you know, I'm certainly not the first person to make the observation that the drug business today is exactly the same thing.

• 47:28Speaker 03

  Well, I can't help thinking that there is a really cool prequel to Boardwalk Empire in the story of, of the New York City medical examiners who uncovered,

• 47:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:40Speaker 03

  some of this insane. You know, because they're right at the interface of law and crime, basically.

• 47:48Speaker 04

  Right.

• 47:49Speaker 03

  Because they're examining the, uh, the coroner's job was just to rubber stamp all of the police misconduct. And, you know, the police were just, you know, they'd kill somebody that they didn't like, or because they were in some crime lord's pocket. Uh, this was a suicide, even though he's got like six gunshots to the back of his head. And, uh, but then Charles Norris came in, really turned things around. And Alexander Getler turned out to be quite a genius of chemistry and put it to good use. It's, it is an incredible story. We're recording this interview before season three of Snafu actually comes out, so I really can't wait for you to hear it.

• 48:30Speaker 04

  No, I mean, there's so many details you brought up that I hadn't heard of. And it's, it's, again, it's just endlessly fascinating.

• 48:36Speaker 03

  Well, Terence Winter, this has been an absolutely delightful, very enlightening conversation. Thank you so much for jumping on Snafu with us.

• 48:44Speaker 04

  Absolutely, my pleasure. It's so fun to do. I can't wait to hear season three.

• 48:48Speaker 03

  Awesome. Thank you so much.

• 48:50Speaker 04

  Thanks so much, Ed. Take care.

• 48:55Speaker 03

  Snafu is a production of iHeartRadio, Film Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company, in association with Gilded Audio. It's executive produced by me, Ed Helms, Milan Papelka, Mike Falbo, Whitney Donaldson, and Dylan Fagan. Our lead producers are Carl Nellis and Alyssa Martino. Additional production from Steven Wood, Olivia Canny, and Kelsey Albright. Our story editor is Nikki Stein. Our production assistants are Nevin Kalapali and Akemini Ekpo. Fact checking by Charles Richter. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. Our associate producer, Tori Smith, edited this episode. Editing, music, and sound design by Ben Chug.

• 49:39Speaker 03

  Engineering and technical direction by Nick Dooley. Andrew Chug is Gilded Audio's creative director. Our amazing theme music is by Dan Rosado. Special thanks to Alison Cohen, Daniel Welsh, and Ben Reizak.

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