Pod Insights Silicon Valley Girl: AI, Tech and Career Growth Thomas Wolf: Everyone’s Using AI Wrong — Here’s How to Actually Win | Hugging Face CSO Explains About this episode Thomas Wolf, co-founder of Hugging Face, the leading platform for open-source machine learning models, datasets, and applications, joins us to talk about the future of open-source AI, how non-coders can build powerful apps, what it really means to “own” your AI-generated content, and how robotics and LLMs are reshaping our world—from startups to our kids’ education. We also dive into the future of jobs, open-source trust, vibe coding, and whether your next AI assistant will be a talking duck.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.
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0:59 Speaker 02 Something that's definitely gonna happen in the coming five years, big job disruption.
1:03 Marina Mogilko? This is Thomas Wolfe, co-founder and the chief science officer of Hugging Face, the open source platform shaping the future of AI. We met at Viva Tech to talk about the future of work and how to stay ahead. What skills will actually matter in the age of AI? How do you stay relevant when entire industries are being disrupted? And how close are we to having robots inside our homes? So what's your advice to people who are studying for five years to do something that might be disrupted?
1:31 Speaker 02 Yeah, I would say the two advice. I mean, one is definitely
1:35 Marina Mogilko? Hello, everyone. Welcome to Silicon Valley, y'all. We have Thomas today, who's co-founder of Hugging Face. Thomas, thank you so much for being here.
1:42 Speaker 02 Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure.
1:44 Marina Mogilko? Please explain, how can I, a non-technical person, use Hugging Face? Can you explain the concept?
1:50 Speaker 02 Okay, so, I mean, to be clear, Hugging Face is still mostly done for technical people. Most part of the website are made for software developer who want to develop something with AI. So that's the two. We have three main parts on the website. We have models, data set. You want to use them if you're developing a new app with an AI component. And you don't want to use a closed source solution like OpenAI or Anthropic. But you want to be able to own the full stack. You want to have an open source solution like your open source code. So in this case, you will go on our platform. You'll find, select the right model for your task, for the, for the, for the application or website you're, you're building. And you'll download it. But there is one big pack, one big part of the, of the website that we created recently. And that's actually growing exponentially, which is much more accessible.
2:35 Speaker 02 It's called AI Apps. It's kind of an app store of AI. So we call that Spaces. These are very kind of small websites. You can go on Huggy Face, that Spaces. You have a search bar and basically just type something you would like to do with AI. You can type, I don't know, I want to remove the background of an image. I want to, um, to get the speech for a text and written like, um, Eleven Labs type thing. Or I want to, uh, you know, generate a 3D character out of an image. And here you will have like spaces that are created by community. You can select one and here you have a very no code, easy button interface. That lets you do this kind of magical, magical, uh, things basically.
3:14 Marina Mogilko? And you use them on your platform or you can migrate to your own app that you're building with?
3:18 Speaker 02 So the nice thing is you can use that directly from the platform. Then we provide the compute stack website, right? You just, if you want to generate an image from a prompt, like Midjourney.
3:28 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
3:28 Speaker 02 You type this, you will have like a dozen of them. Some of them are more likes, for instance, so you, you can select the more popular one, the most popular one. You go there, you type your prompt, you get the image. Now let's say you want to do that offline, for instance. You can also git clone the space, you can download it. And then you can run it on your, on your, on your PC. If it's powerful, depends a bit on the AI model. Some of them are quite big, so you might need a, a quite a large model.
3:53 Marina Mogilko? Do I need a vibe coding app to make it an actual app?
3:57 Speaker 02 There is actually even one of the the most popular space right now is a vibe vibe coding space. It's a free one, it's called Deep Site. It's used the Chinese model Deep Sea, which is a free free model, but it doesn't run through the the Chinese server, right? It's run locally, so so no no worries about your prompts getting uh getting through. So the People Republic of China. Um but this is vibe coding one that you can also download it and you can create website.
4:21 Marina Mogilko? How do you think about ownership when you use somebody else's like open source code? For example, as a creator, I decide to create an app where I generate an image or like a character that I'm gonna use later. And I use that app to create a character. Who ends up owning it? If I decide to migrate it later from my app, sell rights to Disney, so how do you think about it?
4:43 Speaker 02 The way I think about it is uh mostly informed by what we have in code. So in code, we have this open source movements. And I mean, in a nutshell, the idea of open source is when you write some code. Instead of just keeping it secret, you can also decide to share it with everyone. You can put a license on it and it's actually better to put to put the license usually. Most of these licenses, the most popular right now are the MIT or Apache license. And what they will say is something a little bit like Wikipedia. Basically, you can use it, you can edit the content, but you're supposed to credit uh the the original creator of the code. So basically, just, you know, just not take credit for yourself uh on something that someone else has built.
5:25 Speaker 02 You can have also a more complex license where you will ask, you know, the people to pay if they have a commercial application or something like that, yeah.
5:32 Marina Mogilko? It's just interesting for me, like, because I've seen, like, for for example, media, sometimes you sell your image, like a photo, to an agency for like fifteen dollars.
5:40 Speaker 02 Yeah.
5:41 Marina Mogilko? And they put it on all the billboards cross-country and make millions on it. And you're like, damn, and I sold it for fifteen dollars.
5:49 Speaker 02 You have to accept a bit that, yeah. In software, we have the same problem, which is sometimes you, some people have created amazing software that power actually everything around us. Including Linux or in the scientific computing, you have you have something very famous called NumPy. Which every PyTorch and which every everyone use somewhere. And these people have definitely not earned even a very tiny fraction of the business value that was generated out of it.
6:16 Marina Mogilko? Do you think they're happy? Have you talked to?
6:19 Speaker 02 I think a lot of people do that for the mission. They think that it's better to maybe earn less, but have something that's freely accessible that everyone can use without having to pay. I think it's a bit their choice because you can also decide to to create a nice business and company around an open source model. That's called Open Core. One idea is that you open source a core base. And then the feature that are more especially interesting for business, maybe around security. And maybe some features around, I don't know, how you integrate with additional business.
6:51 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
6:51 Speaker 02 Then you you keep this private and make people pay for that. And the reasoning is if you need this feature, you're actually making money, so you can share.
6:58 Marina Mogilko? Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Uh, let's talk about what hugging face would look like in two or three years. So what I see happening with the developer industry, I started coding apps. I have no technical background, right? Uh, do you feel like people who code become less technical? Or do you think people will get more and more education in coding? And because they want to touch upon that and integrate their apps and businesses?
7:24 Speaker 02 That's a good question. I think we'll see, we'll see both, I would say. So what I definitely already see is a lot of my non-technical friends, for instance, entrepreneur, but they have like a business background.
7:35 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
7:36 Speaker 02 They definitely now play a lot with all the vibe coding tools, all the thing, and they and they definitely now create apps. I have a good friend living next door to me. He's an entrepreneur, but zero, zero technical background. Now he does all the time like lovable demo, things like that, to to basically get the first prototype of what he wants to build. So so I definitely see that, which is people that are non-technical who become user of this and actually create very technical products. What I also see is, for instance, my my son, who who likes to learn. And he's learning coding, but very differently than me. So the way he learns coding right now is he will use this AI tool to generate stuff.
8:16 Speaker 02 And at some point where it doesn't work, that's where that he start diving the code and it's like, oh, well, okay, now he starts to understand. And the way I learned code was much more, I would learn the the basics and I would learn the second level. And so like very organized, I think, in a way. So they're learning that very differently. But I don't think it's gonna be less technical in the end. Just it's just a different way of learning where you directly get some results.
8:40 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
8:41 Speaker 02 But then because these tools have some limitation, you still need to learn coding. I think it will still.
8:46 Marina Mogilko? So we'll need more developers. Is that what you're saying?
8:48 Speaker 02 I think we also have a developer pool that will grow.
8:50 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
8:51 Speaker 02 Yeah.
8:51 Marina Mogilko? Interesting. Uh, let's talk about your kids, since you mentioned your son. Uh, he recently presented an app that he coded. What are you teaching your kids? Uh, and how are you raising them so that twelve years old, they're already doing something really cool?
9:06 Speaker 02 It's a big question, huh?
9:07 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
9:08 Speaker 02 I I don't pretend to have any answer. I would say, uh, that that that I'm really certain of. Uh, what I know, I think, is there is some value that I would still think will be timeless. Uh, uh, one of them is kind of creativity and basically, you know, not being afraid of creating new things. Um, because I think in the future, there will always be L L M. What we see when we use them is that they're still not very good at creating really novel things. They're very good at doing what you can expect them to do. They're they're actually trained. They're trying to predict the most probable, the most likely next token, right? So when you ask them something, they will create the most likely thing.
9:49 Speaker 02 Often, when you want to really create something new and you know that very well, I guess, you know, when you when you create like a video and you want something, you have to be creative. You have to invent something that's a bit out of the ordinary.
10:00 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
10:00 Speaker 02 If you just do the same thing as everyone, just nobody notices.
10:02 Marina Mogilko? Absolutely.
10:03 Speaker 02 And so these skills like this, this, uh, maybe a fact of not being self-centered and being creative, I think will always be useful. I think another thing.
10:12 Marina Mogilko? How do you teach that?
10:13 Speaker 02 Yeah, I don't really know.
10:14 Marina Mogilko? If they make a mistake, you're like, just try again?
10:16 Speaker 02 Encourage. We've been teaching, trying to teach creativity for quite some time, I think. Uh, in the U S, it's very, it's very great. There is some country in Europe, and you see that where it's actually very great. One example is, uh, we were talking just just recently about, uh, Stockholm and the Swedish ecosystem. They have a lot of focus on creativity at school. I think it helps maybe also bringing out great entrepreneurial like Daniel from Spotify, Sebastian from Klarna.
10:43 Speaker 02 The French system is not the best for creativity. We're like, you're supposed to learn what's in the list and not to not to go too much out of the ordinary. So I think probably don't want to take too much inspiration from just the French system.
10:56 Marina Mogilko? Did you teach your kids to code? Did you tell them like, hey, this is where you have to be? This is the future, like, sit down and code.
11:03 Speaker 02 Yeah, I I tried, but can it's always a thing with kids. If you're too obviously trying to push something and then.
11:09 Marina Mogilko? Yeah, they they're just gonna.
11:11 Speaker 02 They're gonna say that's your thing, then it's not my thing. So I tried just very smoothly. So one example next last Monday, I just brought in at a conference with me. And just seeing a entrepreneur, it was like, oh, that's very interesting. So just trying to, I think a way to see that is you can just open their horizon. You just try to show them a lot of things and not not saying you have to do that, but just this is possible, right?
11:34 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
11:34 Speaker 02 So it's the same with A I tools. You can just show them the tools and then they use them if they found it interesting or fun. And then they will do this themselves, hopefully.
11:45 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
11:45 Speaker 02 And discover this tool themselves.
11:47 Marina Mogilko? I know, I know, like, so my my daughter is a four and five and I'm like, what do I teach that? Like, what is the world gonna look like? What do you think the world's gonna look like? Side of ten years.
11:57 Speaker 02 It's gonna be very different, huh? Pretty sure. I mean, there will be common things. I I'm pretty sure there will still be people talking, podcasts, I think, because we really like human interaction. I think this won't disappear. And but we will have all this A I automation. A lot of the work I do just now, this this past few months has been around robotics. And we just acquired the robotics company.
12:19 Marina Mogilko? Is it gonna be a commercial or?
12:20 Speaker 02 Yeah.
12:21 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
12:21 Speaker 02 It's gonna be very accessible robots that can be used mostly by developer. But I want to make it also something that you could even use with your kids to teach robotics if you want. One thing I do like about robots, for instance, give kind of physical presence to A I.
12:34 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
12:34 Speaker 02 This is A I, we just call it like even even Alexa, we say, hey, Alexa, but you don't have any idea.
12:39 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
12:40 Speaker 02 And I like the idea of having like a physical and A I is here.
12:43 Marina Mogilko? Yeah, I see some movement.
12:44 Speaker 02 Looking at me, you're like, it's looking at this. I I kind of like this.
12:47 Marina Mogilko? Is it also gonna be some like you have a robot, but then you go to Hugging Face and you can upload all the open source apps?
12:54 Speaker 02 And the cool thing is you can teach things to your robots. And you upload them on Hugging Face and you can share them with everyone in open source ways. One and only thing with the robots is they can do, you buy them, they can do like twenty things. And then when you actually explore them all, you just put the robot inside and it's all. But here, if it's connected to an open source repository that's growing with people inventing new things, the robot that helps you cook or the robots that, I don't know, play with this, or the robots that can clean something. And that share them with everyone, you could have something that actually grow with time.
13:23 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
13:24 Speaker 02 I'm very excited about that.
13:25 Marina Mogilko? It looks like it's like kind of the future Apple Store, right? When you have this device, but it's actually a robot and you have all these apps.
13:32 Speaker 02 Yeah.
13:32 Marina Mogilko? That you can also tailor for yourself, like hey, set up cameras for me or whatever, watch where's the sound.
13:39 Speaker 02 So I'm pretty bullish that in in in couple of years, we'll have quite a lot of robots uh going around. Probably at conferences like this, you'll have, you you start to have a lot of them also already I saw um.
13:51 Marina Mogilko? At a restaurant.
13:52 Speaker 02 A robot buggy at the restaurant.
13:53 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
13:54 Speaker 02 I'm not sure.
13:54 Marina Mogilko? There was one at the restaurant.
13:56 Speaker 02 Carrying, just helping.
13:58 Marina Mogilko? When I was having a baby, we had a robot in our hospital in San Francisco.
14:02 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah, to move things about?
14:03 Marina Mogilko? Um um yeah, yeah, yeah, for like bedding, whatever. When is the year when every family, I'm speaking for moms here who hate laundry? When are we gonna have a robot uh in our household to help us with daily things? How far away from that?
14:19 Speaker 02 I think that the technology itself is very close. I would say on the tech side and the maybe prototyping demo.
14:27 Speaker 02 I would guess next year can have some stuff. And then the main question is the price of the thing.
14:31 Marina Mogilko? Uh and. Price and regulation, I feel like.
14:33 Speaker 02 Price and regulation, for sure.
14:35 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
14:35 Speaker 02 Yeah, there's two aspects, the the security aspect will be very important for robots. I mean, there is question for safety in AI, but I mean, saying a bad words, you you know, by GPT is not the same as a robot like, you know, making a big punch or something. So there will be question like that. Uh but the second one is if this robot costs like eighty thousand dollar or something like that, um.
14:57 Speaker 00 This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.
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15:57 Marina Mogilko? What do you think? What do you think it's going to cost next year? Or like versus in five years?
16:01 Speaker 02 So the early one will still be like the price of a car right now. I think you need two hands that can grab things. So usually it's around 15, 20K. I would love to see them much cheaper.
16:12 Marina Mogilko? Do you think there's going to be subscription as well? Subscription?
16:14 Speaker 02 That's also possible, yeah. Probably, probably it's going to be like that for, for the expensive one. But also, I don't think every robot has to be humanoid. At Targifest, we only do open source robotics. And the fun part about this is we can make a platform that a lot of people can use to develop different type of robots. So it can be just one arm, can be just a funny head that's move and talk. Can be just something that work but has no arm. We made a robot duck. That's just a duck that's walk around you. Very cute. So we can explore a lot of form factors and see which one will be actually the. The best in terms of price, possibility, capabilities.
16:52 Marina Mogilko? How do you make sure that if someone creates an open source app for a robot, that it doesn't have this spy element that monitors inside the house?
17:00 Speaker 02 Hmm, yeah, that's a big question. I mean, for both models and robots, already today models, I think one of the big advantage of open source is you can download and run them locally. So you download them and then you can even.
17:14 Marina Mogilko? You don't have to talk to the server, okay.
17:16 Speaker 02 You can stop the wifi and the thing is just cannot send anything and it can run locally. That's something you can only do with open source right now. So if you use chat G P T, you are always to send a thing. And for robots, I think it will be very important. If the wifi stop, what does your robots do? Okay, I don't know, it's like loading the dishwasher, I just let the let the thing fall.
17:36 Marina Mogilko? I'm done.
17:36 Speaker 02 You want this thing to work, you know, even when there is like a problem. And also you don't want them to communicate too much, I think.
17:41 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
17:42 Speaker 02 You want privacy, very strong privacy with something that's in your house.
17:45 Marina Mogilko? So just to sum it up, you think next year we're gonna have robots who are capable of doing things in a house? And then in five years, I would have a robot?
17:53 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think next year we'll see two thing on the on the web and on the L L M. We see agents that can do a lot of task. We start to see that today. So a lot of complex tasks we do on computer will be automated. We see a beginning of the same thing in the physical world with robots starting to be able to do some task really. And this will just keep keep growing, uh, free growing with time. And maybe the the search trend that's that's a bit more complex, I think, will be, we start to have really this photorealistic content at scale. So video that are indistinguishable of of reality with sound that's also indistinguishable. And this will also be a big question, I think. In my opinion, the optimistic way is um, we'll pay more attention to being uh face to face.
18:36 Marina Mogilko? Present.
18:37 Speaker 02 With someone because we'll know it's a real moment.
18:39 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
18:39 Speaker 02 And we know that every video call of thing can be actually a fake thing as well.
18:44 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
18:44 Speaker 02 So maybe uh giving more weight to to the fact of being together in the same room.
18:49 Marina Mogilko? That's true.
18:49 Speaker 02 Be more human anyway.
18:51 Marina Mogilko? Yeah, so our present is iPhones, I have mine here, and a MacBook. In five years, A I, uh, do you see A I being in some piece of tech? And if yes, what is it? Is it a robot? Is it a wearable? Is it glasses?
19:07 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's a good question. My view of AI is um we have a big trends that started last year, which is we can do much polar AI models. That are actually very high performance. And so this means you can start to embed them a bit everywhere. There's a lot of people are working on AI chips that will be much more optimized, consume less energy. And this, according to me, it points to a future where you have like AI a bit diffused everywhere, just like electronics, you know, we have electronics, a camera in a smartphone. And so we'll get used to having basically all our electronic system that just understand much better what we want to do.
19:43 Marina Mogilko? Let's wrap up with this question. Imagine we're here in five years. And uh can you talk about the wildest thing that's going on in the world in five years?
19:54 Speaker 02 Yeah, one of my most exciting direction right now in AI. Is uh using all the techniques we've learned to train good AI models, so kind of train intelligent model. Applying that to other field of research, applying that to discovering new materials for battery, applying that to, you know, weather prediction, applying that to. Uh fusion uh fusion energy, you know. So my hope is in five years, we'll we have some of these things that are maybe not just a chatbot. A chatbot is nice, but it's not like. Changing the world in a way, like it's not, you know, inventing things that make us actually solve big, big challenge, right?
20:33 Speaker 02 And so all these things that I group them generally in the idea AI plus science. So you take very smart AI models or you take just knowledge we have around this model and try to apply that to a scientific field where you can do a fundamental breakthrough. I think this is something that's exciting a lot right now.
20:47 Marina Mogilko? So you think cancer will be cured in five years?
20:49 Speaker 02 Yeah, these type of things, right?
20:50 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
20:51 Speaker 02 Cancer, I'm not sure, because it seems like the more we look in deeper, the more it's kind of a very complex uh uh. But definitely some some disease and also definitely material science, there is some super exciting developments.
21:03 Marina Mogilko? Mm hmm.
21:03 Speaker 02 Material science is kind of this unsexy scientific, you know, a field that actually can change a lot of things because it unlock. Smart metal batteries like carbon dioxide um trapping of this type of thing that can be. Fundamental in, you know, just solving huge problem like climate change.
21:21 Marina Mogilko? In five years, what do you think about unemployment? A lot of people are worried about that when it comes to AI.
21:28 Speaker 02 I think there is two, two main trends. One that I used to be for a long time in this was AI, we unlock so much creativity. Start from kids, you know, when I do a vibe coding with my kids, they have a lot of ideas for website, a website to connect. We need like a website to share your cats with other people, like other things or like websites to connect. I'm not a football player with scouts. So they, they are all of this idea and I'm like, this is great. And, and all of this could even be like potential companies or thing like that. So, so you have this website where basically because it make a lot of things very accessible, a lot of people can become entrepreneur basically. But it's also true that not everyone wants to be an entrepreneur, like people, uh, some people don't.
22:12 Speaker 02 Uh, and then I'm, I'm wondering because I was a former lawyer before starting Hagi Face. So I was for six years in a, in an intellectual property. And it's true that this field is, are gonna be very strongly disrupted by AI. Like there's a lot of like support function that are, that are currently handled by, by many people and that can definitely fall in the scope that AI can do. And it's also a field where you study, like you do quite long studies. So you've studied five, six, eight years for your job. So it's not like you're gonna jump directly to a new field, right?
22:43 Marina Mogilko? Exactly.
22:44 Speaker 02 So this type of, uh, this type of profession is the big question for me is how can you handle that? It's also a topic that I think very few governments or very few like, you know, think tank are really currently tackling. Like other people, I feel like are more like, let's not look too much at this. Let's talk about, I don't know, the danger of AGI, uh, you know, ruling the world instead of just something that's definitely gonna happen in the coming five years, which is big job disruption in some, in some.
23:14 Marina Mogilko? So what's your advice to people who are studying for five years to do something that might be disrupted?
23:19 Speaker 02 Yeah, I would say the two advice, I mean, one is definitely use these tools because, and try to see what they are capable of. Because you want to become the master of this tool. Right, and you want to to to be able to use them in your in your profession. So you you have to stay in touch with this revolution, you cannot just ignore it. And the second one would be, um, yeah, start to to see if you don't, if you don't want to be very creative, uh, uh, and you know, uh, like, what is, once, once you start using this tool, what do you feel is the remaining exciting part of your job? And is it something you you're actually really happy to do? And if not, I think it's time to to see if you don't want to to create something new, if you don't want to start something new.
23:56 Marina Mogilko? Yeah, and and that was the first, you said you you had two two opinions on that, so the first.
24:01 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, the first one is everyone become an entrepreneur, basically.
24:04 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
24:04 Speaker 02 But I I think the second one is is kind of the panel, which is, I'm not sure everyone wants to become an entrepreneur, so that, and here I don't have a great answer. I think I think this is something that should be fully tackled as a as a society.
24:16 Marina Mogilko? It should be already just being discussed in the government.
24:19 Speaker 02 So it's obviously tied to, I don't know, uni- universal basic basic income, but also, yeah, do you want to do that, or like, maybe we're moving to a society, look, some friends also think we're moving to a society where entertainment is gonna be the main thing we create and consume as human. So, um, this is possible future society. And there there is also a big question there, which is, um,
24:43 Speaker 02 are we not gonna lose a little bit of something of being human if we automate so much of our life? Uh, I don't really have a a big answer. We had that with, uh, uh, the GPS is a good example, right? So now.
24:55 Marina Mogilko? Oh, yeah, we can't read the maps anymore.
24:55 Speaker 02 Very often, we don't even know where we are really in the city, because it's so easy to be guided by the machine.
25:02 Marina Mogilko? Absolutely.
25:03 Speaker 02 So we definitely lost a little bit of something.
25:05 Marina Mogilko? This is all very interesting. Thank you so much. It's an amazing conversation. I don't know, I I try to stay excited about the future, especially now you mentioned content creators being the driving force. Thank you so much for being here. It was really inspiring.
25:18 Speaker 02 Thanks. So the fun discussion.
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