Pod Insights Short Wave "A Very, Very Big Deal." Countries Take On Fossil Fuels About this episode Many countries are frustrated with U. N. climate conferences. While some countries urgently want to transition away from fossil fuels — the main driver of global warming — others are blocking that language from climate agreements. Today on the show, Emily talks with Julia Simon https://www.npr.org/people/1119646476/julia-simon from NPR’s climate desk. She takes us to Brazil and introduces us to a group of countries that are trying something new.
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0:00 Speaker 00 This message comes from Google Workspace with Gemini. One subscription that does it all. Personalized AI and premium business versions of Gmail, Google Docs, Drive and more. Try it free for 14 days at g o o dot g l e slash Workspace with Gemini.
0:18 Emily Kwong? You're listening to Short Wave from NPR. Hey, Short Wavers. Emily Kwong here with Julia Simon from NPR's climate desk. Hey, Julia.
0:28 Speaker 02 Hey, Emily. It's so good to be here.
0:30 Emily Kwong? I'm so excited to talk to you because you just got back from COP30, the UN climate change conference in Belen, Brazil, at the edge of the Amazon rainforest. How was it?
0:39 Speaker 02 Well, I would say eventful is a good word to describe it. The conference took place in these big, plastic tents. And the day before the conference was supposed to end, I was on the phone with my editor in the US, Sadie Babbitts. And then people started running through the tent, saying, there's a fire. OK, there's really a fire. Jesus effing Christ, Sadie.
1:00 Emily Kwong? Oh, no.
1:01 Speaker 02 I know. I gotta move on.
1:02 Speaker 03 Sadie's telling me to get out.
1:05 Emily Kwong? The Brazilians are pretty upset and they speak my language, though. Well, what happened?
1:10 Speaker 02 It seems to have been an electrical issue. Something caught fire. There was a huge blaze enveloping part of the tent. At least a dozen people were treated for smoke inhalation. Tens of thousands of us were evacuated. But when I ran out of the tent, the first thing I did was find this guy named Andres Gomez. Because, Emily, today's podcast, it's not about the fire. It's about what was supposed to happen just 15 minutes after the fire broke out. Andres is from Colombia, and he was working with the Colombian government and a group of about 20 other countries to make this big announcement, something that climate experts say promised to be one of the most important things to come out of this conference.
1:54 Emily Kwong? Yikes. So you guys are trying to reschedule, I'm guessing?
1:59 Speaker 04 Who knows? We need everything to calm down and denounce the Colombian government.
2:06 Emily Kwong? Oh, man. Today on the show, what almost didn't happen at the climate conference in Brazil.
2:13 Speaker 02 A fire upends a major announcement about tackling the biggest driver of global warming: fossil fuels.
2:21 Speaker 05 We came to Vilene with a clear goal: keep the 1.5 limit within reach, of course, and aligned with science. This is a policy war of science. We need to trust science.
2:35 Emily Kwong? Will this announcement happen? Will it not happen?
2:38 Speaker 02 Stay with us.
2:39 Speaker 06 I'm going to stress eat chocolate. Anyone want to do that?
2:43 Speaker 02 That would be a lovely idea.
2:44 Emily Kwong? Thank you. You're listening to Short Wave, the science podcast from NPR. Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors.
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4:19 Emily Kwong? Okay, Julia, so before we talk about whether this announcement happens or not, what was on the table at this year's UN Climate Conference called COP 30?
4:27 Speaker 02 Well, quick refresher course. About 70% of the greenhouse gas emissions heating our planet, Emily, they come from burning fossil fuels.
4:36 Emily Kwong? Facts. Burning coal, oil, and natural gas is the single biggest driver of global warming.
4:40 Speaker 02 Exactly. And for the past 30 years, countries have been coming to these UN climate conferences to discuss how to tackle global warming. But many countries say these conferences, they're called COPs, do not have nearly enough emphasis on the need to transition away from fossil fuels. Again, which is the main driver of climate change. I spoke to one, Carlos Monterrey. He's Special Representative for Climate Change of Panama about this topic.
5:07 Speaker 07 Every time that we come to this COP, we try to re-debate science. We try to avoid talking about fossil fuels. It's really, really stupid. It's like trying to deal with a patient that has COVID, but not treating the patient for COVID.
5:19 Speaker 02 Yeah, Emily, it took 28 years for the COP agreement to even mention transitioning away from fossil fuels.
5:27 Emily Kwong? Ooh, I imagine that's really frustrating for so many countries who come to this conference.
5:33 Speaker 02 I would say some of the countries I spoke to would say frustrating is an understatement. Climate change is happening. And many countries came to Berlin explicitly demanding language in the final agreement about a roadmap away from fossil fuels. In fact, many countries, like the United Kingdom, Mexico, Norway, they said they didn't want to leave the conference without that fossil fuel roadmap language.
5:57 Emily Kwong? Hmm. Did they get their roadmap?
5:59 Speaker 02 No. No mention of fossil fuels.
6:01 Emily Kwong? Wow.
6:01 Speaker 02 And so, like we said, many countries are deeply frustrated with this UN process. It's a process by consensus, Emily. So every country has to agree to the text of this agreement. And you have close to 200 countries in the process. And while Norway and Mexico are oil producers and they want a roadmap off of fossil fuels, some other big oil producers, like Saudi Arabia, they do not. So you have some countries pretty consistently blocking text that mentions fossil fuels.
6:33 Emily Kwong? Interesting. So this is the dynamic at COP. Is anyone doing anything about it?
6:38 Speaker 02 Well, remember that guy we met from the top of the episode, Andres Gomez from Colombia?
6:43 Emily Kwong? Yes. You found him after the fire.
6:45 Speaker 02 Exactly. He works for a group that is developing something new. I met with Andres that morning before the fire and he told me what was supposed to happen later that day. I consider this under embargo. This isn't going to go out until later today.
7:01 Emily Kwong? Famous last words.
7:02 Speaker 02 I know, right?
7:03 Speaker 04 The list, yeah, it's very interesting countries like Mexico, for instance.
7:08 Speaker 02 Andres was showing me on his phone a list of about 20 countries that plan to announce something called the first international conference on the just transition away from fossil fuels, or the Santa Marta Conference for short.
7:23 Emily Kwong? What is the Santa Marta Conference?
7:25 Speaker 02 Well, like we said before, some of those countries that really want this roadmap away from fossil fuels, they're, again, frustrated with those consensus rules of COP, everybody has to agree.
7:36 Emily Kwong? Yeah.
7:37 Speaker 02 These countries want to take action urgently. And just like if you're doing a group project, Emily, and there are some people who are really into it and some people who are not so much, these countries, some call them the high ambition countries. They're like, we want our own space. We want our own conference to really tackle the phase out of fossil fuels ASAP. Here's Andres.
8:00 Speaker 04 We have these high ambition countries, which are 20. Let's say that we get the same number that we have now. So we'll have this. Countries which are convinced that we need to do something really quickly and we are going to do that in April.
8:13 Speaker 02 So this conference in April 2026 that Andres is helping to organize, that will be the first global conference for the phase out of fossil fuels. It's in Santa Marta, Colombia, hence the name. And that's a big deal. Colombia is an oil, gas and coal producer. Here's Irene Velez Torres, Colombia's Environment Minister.
8:34 Speaker 03 The idea of the Santa Marta Conference is to have this first space in which we are completely clear that the phasing out is necessary because it's not easy. No one is saying that it is easy. But if we don't face the problems, we cannot build the solutions.
8:50 Emily Kwong? Okay, this is fascinating that this new conference has emerged.
8:55 Speaker 02 Yeah.
8:55 Emily Kwong? I gotta ask though, why, why not just bring this to COP? I mean, COP is the place where the world came together around the Paris Agreement, around 190 countries agreed to try to limit warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius. So why can't countries just, you know, stick to that?
9:12 Speaker 02 I mean, it's, it's an important question. And in the Paris Agreement, countries did agree to limit warming and cut their emissions. But the thing about the Paris Agreement, Emily, is that it doesn't specify the specific steps countries will take. Here's Nikki Rice, she's Climate and Energy Director at the Center for International Environmental Law.
9:31 Speaker 03 The existing framework, the Paris Agreement, it doesn't contain a step-by-step playbook for how we're going to combat climate change or phase out fossil fuels.
9:43 Speaker 02 Also, it turns out the pledges that countries are making for the Paris Agreement, they're not enough to limit warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius. A new UN report finds that right now, countries are pursuing policies that would cut emissions by just 12% by 2035. What scientists say countries need to do is cut emissions in half by 2035.
10:06 Emily Kwong? Yeah. Okay, so how does the Santa Marta Conference intend to be different?
10:11 Speaker 02 They tell me they're still nailing down the official agenda, but the big conversation topic is how to transition away from fossil fuels in an equitable way. So globally, there are still lots of subsidies for the oil, gas and coal industries. One thing that organizers tell me that they'll probably be discussing is how to redirect that money away from oil, gas and coal towards helping countries pay for things like more renewable energy and batteries. Also, there are tens of millions of people who work in the fossil fuel industries, people who work in coal mines and people who work on drilling rigs. These organizers say countries are going to have to find a way to get these people new jobs in an equitable and fair way.
10:55 Emily Kwong? Yeah, I mean, it sounds like these would be concrete measures to help countries actually deliver on the goals of the Paris Agreement.
11:02 Speaker 02 Well, that's the goal, right? Is to make the transition away from fossil fuels really happen. Sophie Hermanns is Minister of Climate Policy and Green Growth of the Netherlands. The Netherlands is co-hosting this new conference with the Colombian government, and the minister says the Santa Marta conference is complementary to what they promised in Paris.
11:22 Speaker 03 In Paris 10 years ago, we all said, okay, we have this ambition. But after you've said you have the ambition, you also have to come to action. And that's what we are doing now.
11:33 Speaker 02 But Emily, there is one other thing that they plan to discuss in Santa Marta in the spring, and that is something called the Fossil Fuel Treaty.
11:43 Emily Kwong? Ooh, what is the Fossil Fuel Treaty?
11:46 Speaker 02 It is an initiative to make a legally binding treaty for a just transition to phase out fossil fuels. So 18 countries are already signed on, including Colombia, Cambodia, also a number of small island nations like Tuvalu, Benoitu, a number of big cities, Chicago, London, Kolkata. And this is the group that Andres works for. Nikki Reich, the lawyer we spoke to, advises them in her role at the Center for International Environmental Law. The hope is that in Santa Marta, they will get the ball rolling for another conference to begin this treaty writing process. The ultimate goal being to make this legally binding document that would commit countries
12:31 Speaker 02 to transition away from fossil fuels. This is a very...
12:34 Speaker 05 Very, very big deal.
12:36 Speaker 02 This is Jessica Green, political science professor at University of Toronto. She thinks this Santa Marta conference and this potential fossil fuel treaty represent an inflection point for global climate politics.
12:48 Speaker 05 Of course, it remains to be seen what they will accomplish together, but this is something that academics have been talking about for a long time, is that we need sort of smaller groups of countries, coalitions of the willing, to forge ahead because the laggards are not willing to get with the program.
13:05 Speaker 02 And by the way, we reached out to the American Petroleum Institute, or API, about the conference. The API is the biggest oil and gas trade association in the US with offices around the world. API spokesperson Charlotte Law said in an email, quote, "Global energy demand is surging," and quote, "Ideological debates about eliminating single energy sources are frozen in the past and distract from the real work ahead, innovating to deliver the energy the world needs with a smaller environmental footprint."
13:35 Emily Kwong? Okay, good to know. So, back to this conference. Did Andres and everyone get to announce what they wanted to say at COP, given the fire?
13:44 Speaker 02 Well, we were all evacuated after the fire. We weren't sure what would happen. But the next morning, we all gathered in the press conference room.
13:53 Speaker 05 Thank you very much for being here.
13:55 Speaker 02 And then Colombian Environment Minister Irene Villas Torres, she got onstage, flanked by about a dozen other country representatives, and made this announcement.
14:07 Speaker 05 This declaration is grounded in a simple scientific truth. Fossil fuels are the primary driver of climate crisis. For that reason, the government of Colombia, in alliance with the government of the Netherlands, announces today the first international conference on just transition away from fossil fuels. This conference...
14:35 Speaker 02 I looked over at Andres a few times during the press conference, and he looked like he was tearing up. I caught up with him after.
14:42 Speaker 04 Andres! That was just so great. I saw you. Were you tearing up? Yeah, almost. That was so moving and, I don't know, like very inspiring, like the perfect end for a cop that wasn't promising anything. Probably this would be the most important outcome of this cop.
15:02 Speaker 02 And Emily, some climate experts agree with him. The fact that this conference announced the establishment of another conference to phase out fossil fuels, that may end up being one of the most important things to come out of this cop.
15:19 Emily Kwong? I'm guessing you will be there in Santa Marta in April to cover it.
15:24 Speaker 02 You know it. I will be there to cover it 100%. De Colombia pa'l mundo, pa' pa'. From Colombia for the world, yes.
15:33 Emily Kwong? Julia, thank you so much for coming on Short Wave.
15:35 Speaker 02 Thank you, Emily.
15:38 Emily Kwong? If you liked this episode, follow us on the NPR app or your preferred podcasting platform. This episode was produced by Hannah Chin. It was edited by Sadie Babbitts and our showrunner Rebecca Ramirez. Tyler Jones checked the facts. Jimmy Keighley was the audio engineer. Beth Donovan is our senior vice president of podcasting strategy. I'm Emily Kwong. Thank you for listening to Short Wave, the science podcast from NPR.
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