Pod Insights Short Wave A dietitian and doctor review RFK Jr's new food pyramid About this episode The new food pyramid https://realfood.gov/ was released earlier this year. It emphasizes protein, full-fat dairy and what Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. calls “healthy fats.” These guidelines influence the standards for school lunches, food labeling and programs like SNAP. Today on the show, Short Wave co-host Emily Kwong chats with registered dietitian nutritionist Shana Spence https://www.thenutritiontea.com/about, and Dr. Sarah Kim https://profiles.ucsf.edu/sarah.kim, a diabetes specialist, about the new guidelines. Plus, NPR’s Reflect America fellow Kadin Mills https://www.npr.org/people/g-s1-90680/kadin-mills unpacks how the new food pyramid could change school lunch trays.
Check out more of Kadin’s coverage https://www.npr.org/2026/02/05/nx-s1-5691598/school-lunch-food-pyramid-usda-dietary-guidelines about the changes in dietary guidelines.
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0:00 Speaker 00 This message comes from Capella University. That spark you feel? That's your drive for more. Capella University's FlexPath learning format lets you earn your degree at your pace without putting life on pause. Learn more at capella.edu. You're listening to Short Wave from NPR.
0:21 Emily Kwong? Hey, Short Wavers. Emily Kwong here. So earlier this year, the new inverted food pyramid dropped. You know, the one that emphasizes protein, full-fat dairy, and what Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. calls healthy fats at the top. This pyramid, it was big news for a couple of days, then maybe you forgot about it. But it is important because it reflects new dietary guidelines. These come directly from the federal government and could influence school lunches, food labeling, and programs like SNAP. So here to talk about how the food pyramid may change school lunch trays is Kadin Mills, NPR'S Reflect America Fellow. Hey, Kadin.
0:59 Speaker 02 Hi, Emily.
1:00 Emily Kwong? Hi. Okay, so I've been out of school for a while. What are the kids eating these days?
1:05 Speaker 02 I actually got a tour of a kitchen at Mary H. Matula Elementary School in Maryland. And like a lot of schools, they rely on ready-made meals that they can easily heat up.
1:15 Emily Kwong? Mmm, okay.
1:16 Speaker 02 With the exception of fruit and veggies, almost everything comes pre-packed. And what are you serving today?
1:22 Speaker 03 We have French bread pizza. We have rotini and garlic bread. We have broccoli and carrots. And then our crispy chicken salads. And then we'll have our juices here and our cup fruits here.
1:33 Emily Kwong? Mozzarella stick day was prized at my school.
1:35 Speaker 02 The Bosco stick?
1:36 Emily Kwong? Yes, delicious, delicious. Who's this?
1:39 Speaker 02 So that's Alicia Bassett. She's the Food and Nutrition Manager at Matula Elementary. And the lunch menu she's describing is based on the 2020 guidelines set by the U.S. Department of Agriculture and HHS.
1:51 Speaker 03 Down here, they can get a salad cup, a fresh apple, a fresh orange, bananas. Zucchini, coleslaw, broccoli slaw. Got it going on down here.
2:03 Speaker 02 They've got everything. So, schools that receive federal funding for their school meals have to follow strict standards set by the USDA.
2:11 Emily Kwong? Yeah.
2:11 Speaker 02 From limits on added sugars and salt to the number of calories that come from saturated fats. And those standards must be in line with the dietary guidelines, which have now changed.
2:22 Emily Kwong? OK. So with the new pyramid, how could school lunch trays look different?
2:27 Speaker 02 Yeah, so we don't really know yet. USDA hasn't released their nutrition standards based on this new pyramid yet. And it could take a few years. But one big difference in the new guidelines is protein.
2:40 Emily Kwong? Oh, yes, our friends' meat and dairy and eggs and more.
2:44 Speaker 02 Yeah, so right now, there's no rule saying that schools have to include those proteins in breakfast. But the new guidelines recommend eating protein with every meal.
2:54 Emily Kwong? Oh.
2:55 Speaker 02 So we'll have to wait and see if USDA will mandate that in the future.
3:00 Emily Kwong? Today on the show, we dive into the science behind the updated guidelines, what it means for kids and for adults, and ask if we should change how we eat. I'm Emily Kwong. You're listening to Short Wave, the science podcast from NPR.
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4:45 Emily Kwong? If you haven't already, look up the new food pyramid. It prioritizes protein, dairy, and quote-unquote "healthy fats", all of which is represented in this artful painting topped with roast chicken and broccoli and cheese. So I will say this, aesthetically, the food pyramid could make for some very nice wall art. Whoever painted this ate, literally. And the pyramid as painted is interesting.
5:09 Emily Kwong? That laughter you're hearing is from registered dietitian Shana Spence.
5:12 Speaker 06 Hello.
5:13 Emily Kwong? And beautiful as it is, we wanted to ask Shawna what she thought of the pyramid scientifically.
5:19 Speaker 06 You know, as I expected. Emphasis on protein. And I get it, right? I'm a dietitian. We need protein in our diets, for sure. But this is a bit excessive. We're seeing protein being added in everything, from like Pop-Tarts to, you know, cereals, all this stuff. And I was actually pleasantly surprised. I'm like, oh, they did keep fruits and vegetables at least, so that's good. But yes, I was not surprised at the emphasis on protein.
5:47 Emily Kwong? And one thing that we've been especially confused by is the fats conversation. So this administration has talked about ending the war on healthy fats. What do they mean by that?
6:01 Speaker 06 Yes, we need healthy fats in our diet, for sure. But they they're emphasizing still meat. And in my mind, right, as a dietitian, someone licensed, healthy fats includes, you know, things like avocados, nuts, seeds, right, olive oil, things like that. Not red meat. Um, you know, when we're talking about red meat, it there has been a link towards cardiovascular illnesses and diseases because of the saturated fat.
6:37 Emily Kwong? Yeah, and saturated fats, of course, these are fats that are solid at room temperature.
6:41 Speaker 06 Exactly.
6:42 Emily Kwong? Like butter. Among it also includes butter, cheese, red meat.
6:45 Speaker 06 Exactly, exactly. Like, pretty much the sources that would come from animal products.
6:51 Emily Kwong? And what does nutrition have to say about saturated fat? Like, what does a diet heavy in saturated fat do to our bodies?
6:58 Speaker 06 So it's linked to high cholesterol levels, like your LDL, which is the quote unquote, the bad cholesterol.
7:06 Emily Kwong? Yeah.
7:06 Speaker 06 The cardiovascular diseases, right, leading to certain illnesses like heart disease, strokes. So that's why we really, we meaning health professionals, dietitians.
7:18 Emily Kwong? Yeah.
7:18 Speaker 06 We really emphasize having a diet low in saturated fat.
7:24 Emily Kwong? Yeah.
7:25 Speaker 06 Red meat can be included, like, you know, I always say all foods can fit, but we can go about it in a way that makes sense.
7:33 Emily Kwong? Yeah. And you'd prefer fats that are like mono unsaturated or polyunsaturated, like you said, nuts, avocados. On the on the topic of saturated fats, it's interesting that though the pyramid encourages more red meat consumption, at least visually, there's like a big steak at the top.
7:55 Speaker 06 And that's that's the part I remember the most when looking at it, the steak.
7:59 Emily Kwong? The written guidance is the same as the 2011 MyPlate recommendations, which is to make no more than 10% of your calories from saturated fat. So the number is the same, is capped at that 10% saturated fat, no more, even though they're saying, but please eat more red meat, people. Like, how do you square those two things?
8:20 Speaker 06 It's and it's and that's what's so frustrating is that, you know, when I, when you first look at the triangle, you're thinking, oh, my gosh, I have to, instead of making half my plate fruits and vegetables, I need to be making half my plate meat.
8:38 Emily Kwong? Yeah.
8:38 Speaker 06 And then you have to look at an entirely different section to look at the actual written out recommendations. And that, and then the recommendations haven't changed that much. You know, as a dietitian, I agree with the do not exceed 10%.
8:55 Emily Kwong? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
8:57 Speaker 06 So it's a little confusing and they even have also written out plant, plant-based proteins are great. They even, they even mentioned fiber, I remember. And I was like, oh, my gosh, you mentioned fiber, right? So I just think it's very confusing.
9:14 Emily Kwong? Thanks to registered dietitian Shana Spence. And she's totally right, by the way, about the protein thing. I mean, I don't know if you all have noticed, but protein is everywhere. It is mixed into coffee drinks. Giant powdered tubs of it are flying off the grocery store shelves. But we on Shorewave, we wanted to know, like, how much protein do we really need?
9:34 Speaker 07 That's a really good question.
9:35 Emily Kwong? That's Sarah Kim, a professor of medicine at the University of California, San Francisco.
9:40 Speaker 07 Okay, so the, first of all, the guidelines say 1.2 to 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight. You can get all the protein you need from plant sources. And kudos to the, the food recommendations here. When it talks about proteins, it actually does say, consume a variety of proteins from animal sources, including eggs, as well as a variety of plant sourced protein foods, including beans, peas, lentils, legumes, nuts, seeds and soy. And the amount of protein that one needs can really vary from person to person, depending on their circumstances. Extra protein, you know, that you, that you eat in a day does, is not really stored as protein.
10:25 Speaker 07 Your body can't store extra proteins for possible future use like it can store fat. And so extra protein that you take in a day, that's more than you need in a day, is then converted into sugar and fat. So eating tons of protein does not mean that you will make tons of muscle.
10:47 Speaker 07 You need to actually balance the amount of protein you eat with muscle, exercise, muscle, building exercise.
10:56 Speaker 07 In order to see the rewards of that.
10:57 Emily Kwong? Okay. I'm wondering, Dr. Kim, was there anything about the previous food pyramid that I grew up with or the MyPlate guidelines that were introduced later in 2011 that you were glad to see gone? Or anything that you wish had been kept?
11:17 Speaker 07 Sure. Like, all of these foods I'm seeing on this pyramid and in past pyramids, they look pretty good. They're like healthy-ish foods, you know, minimally processed.
11:25 Emily Kwong? Yeah.
11:26 Speaker 07 And I would say that's the one recommendation that I wholeheartedly agree with is like, eat real food. I completely agree with that.
11:33 Emily Kwong? Right.
11:33 Speaker 07 What I would advise against is being fooled by products that are marketed as healthy because they have some feature of some food guideline.
11:49 Speaker 07 You know, that puts an artificial halo on that food product.
11:53 Emily Kwong? Yeah.
11:54 Speaker 07 That is where we went wrong.
11:56 Emily Kwong? Yeah. Now, these dietary guidelines, because they come from the federal government, they do influence certain things, like school lunches, food on military bases. So how do you hope people use this pyramid? Just knowing that it does have real-world impacts.
12:13 Speaker 07 Looking holistically at the pyramid, I would say we might run into problems with an overemphasis on protein. Because of what expense, you know, cost to the environment of making a lot of protein, and especially animal protein. That's going to be tricky. What I love to see, you know, animal proteins of, you know, some frequency or other protein sources for people who don't want to eat animal proteins. Plus, all of those fruits and vegetables that I see on the pyramid, plus whole grains. Absolutely. You know, the quality of school lunches,
12:57 Speaker 07 I would love to see that get to the level of real food, whole foods, when only processed foods. Because I think right now it probably is fairly processed.
13:07 Emily Kwong? That is completely consistent with these school cafeterias. So much of their world is like highly processed, ready to eat foods that are warmed up.
13:16 Speaker 07 You know, if a school lunch just looked like that pyramid, I think I would be quite happy.
13:27 Emily Kwong? If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend. It really helps our show out. And consider checking out our other episode featuring Sarah Kim. That's the one on blood sugar.
13:39 Emily Kwong? This episode was produced by Rachel Carlson and our showrunner, Rebecca Ramirez. It was edited by Brent Bachman. Arun Nair and Tyler Jones checked the facts. Kwasi Lee was the audio engineer. I'm Emily Kwong. Thank you for listening to Short Wave, the science podcast from NPR.
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