#345 Wynonna Judd - Dolly Parton, Naomi Judd's Death & Finding Her Biological Father

Wynonna Judd is a five-time Grammy Award-winning country artist who rose to fame alongside her mother, Naomi, as The Judds, one of the most successful duos in country music history. After The Judds ended their original run, Wynonna launched a major solo career while navigating family challenges, personal loss, and the death of her mother in 2022. Now, more than four decades into her career, she is entering a new chapter with her upcoming album, The Hard Truth, out now. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: Privacy Isn't Paranoia. It's Protection. Download Glacier today - https://theglacierapp.com Buy American at https://SnakestaffSystems.com and now on Amazon. Tell your family and friends. Go to https://helixsleep.com/SRS for 20% off site wide and enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you! Try ZipRecruiter for free at https://ziprecruiter.com/SRS to save time and meet great candidates sooner. Try Gusto today at https://gusto.com/SRS and get three months free when you run your first payroll. Wynonna Judd Links: Tour Dates - https://www.wynonna.com/tour Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/wynonnajudd Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/wynonnajudd X - https://x.com/Wynonna Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxtzJkaJAbvEX52EaLMKicw Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:29Speaker 01

  In this life, you can't win.

• 0:31Speaker 02

  When the world gets you down.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  No!

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  Escape to Pluto TV.

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• 0:40Speaker 01

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  Even our news is uplifting.

• 0:42Shawn Ryan?

  You stay classy, San Diego.

• 0:44Speaker 02

  Watch School of Rock, Crazy Ex Girlfriend, Anchorman: The Legend of Ron Burgundy, The X-Files, Wayne's World, and so much more.

• 0:50Speaker 01

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• 0:52Speaker 02

  The best things on TV really are free.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  You just have to know where to look.

• 0:55Speaker 02

  Escape to Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never.

• 1:05Shawn Ryan?

  Winona Judd, welcome to the show.

• 1:09Speaker 04

  I'm so excited.

• 1:10Shawn Ryan?

  Me too. I'm nervous.

• 1:12Speaker 04

  I am too.

• 1:19Speaker 04

  What do we do now?

• 1:21Shawn Ryan?

  Well, we're gonna talk about your life story. But, you know, I told you at dinner last night, I've been wanting to do this for a long time. I just never wanted to ask.

• 1:32Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:32Shawn Ryan?

  I didn't want to go into the ask box. But, um, so this is a real honor to do.

• 1:39Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 1:40Shawn Ryan?

  We met in episode five in my attic with Mike Rittlin.

• 1:47Speaker 04

  That's right. Holy moly. How long ago was that?

• 1:55Shawn Ryan?

  2020.

• 1:57Speaker 04

  Okay. Okay. And here we are.

• 2:02Shawn Ryan?

  Here we are, almost seven years later.

• 2:08Speaker 04

  It's about damn time.

• 2:09Shawn Ryan?

  Damn right.

• 2:12Shawn Ryan?

  You ready?

• 2:14Speaker 04

  Yes. I think.

• 2:20Shawn Ryan?

  Well, this is the first one of these you've ever done.

• 2:23Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 2:24Shawn Ryan?

  And we've got a lot to talk about, but I really am honored. We've been friends for almost seven years now.

• 2:33Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:34Shawn Ryan?

  And, uh...

• 2:35Speaker 04

  Family for me.

• 2:36Shawn Ryan?

  Yep. Me too.

• 2:38Speaker 04

  I saw them babies born, so there's that.

• 2:44Shawn Ryan?

  Lots of good stories.

• 2:45Speaker 04

  Lots of good stories.

• 2:48Shawn Ryan?

  But, um, and I've learned a lot more about you since researching you for this interview.

• 2:56Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 2:57Shawn Ryan?

  But, um, not that you need an introduction, but I'm gonna give you one. You ready?

• 3:04Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 3:06Shawn Ryan?

  Winona Judd, you came up in country music alongside your mother, Naomi, as one half of the Judds. Together, you became one of the most successful duos the genre has ever seen. After five Grammy Awards, nine CMAs, and 14 number-one hits, you went on to launch a massive solo career of your own, selling millions of records and dominating the charts, before being introduced into the Country Music Hall of Fame as part of the Judds in 2022. But behind the success, you've lived through some of the most incredible, difficult chapters. Family struggles, the pressure of fame, your husband Cactus Moser's life-changing accident,

• 3:49Shawn Ryan?

  and the loss of your mother in 2022. More than 40 years into your career, you're still making music, still performing, and now releasing your new and probably most important album ever, The Hard Truth.

• 4:04Speaker 04

  All right, then.

• 4:08Speaker 04

  Okay. Did you write that?

• 4:12Shawn Ryan?

  Yep.

• 4:17Shawn Ryan?

  So The Hard Truth, you know, from our personal conversations and from what I know is, is a lot of the...

• 4:28Shawn Ryan?

  A lot of the struggles, a lot of the hard truths of your life that maybe a lot of people don't want, don't, don't know about yet. And we're gonna get into all that throughout the interview. But I am curious, you know, before we get started, why did you... And I know this has been years in the making.

• 4:53Shawn Ryan?

  Why now?

• 4:58Speaker 04

  Death.

• 5:02Speaker 04

  The album started before her death.

• 5:06Speaker 04

  It was taking place during the memorials and the funerals. And it's a 10-year project. So it started before, during, and after. But, and, I will be 63 in May, and it's time for me to tell my story.

• 5:29Shawn Ryan?

  Do you feel... I mean, I know it's, it's not out there yet, but...

• 5:34Speaker 04

  Mm.

• 5:35Shawn Ryan?

  Do you feel a relief?

• 5:39Speaker 04

  Yes. I no longer carry the secret.

• 5:46Shawn Ryan?

  Good for you.

• 5:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:48Shawn Ryan?

  That took a lot of courage.

• 5:50Speaker 04

  Took a lot of courage. And a lot of people telling me, would you have done, or asking me, would you have done this if she were alive? I think that's a great question. And on some days, probably not. But my overall life as a grandmother, I want to break the cycle more now than ever. And part of that is letting it go.

• 6:25Speaker 04

  I will no longer keep secrets in this family.

• 6:32Shawn Ryan?

  Good for you.

• 6:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:44Shawn Ryan?

  You ready to get started?

• 6:46Speaker 04

  Hell, yeah.

• 6:49Shawn Ryan?

  Where did you grow up?

• 6:53Speaker 04

  How much time do you have?

• 6:56Speaker 04

  Hi, I, I, I was born in the same hospital as my mother, right across the street from my grandmother in Ashland, Kentucky, Boyd County, in 1964.

• 7:14Speaker 04

  And we lived there until I was four.

• 7:21Speaker 04

  Mother got thrown out of the house when she got pregnant. Back then, in 1963, women didn't get pregnant without being married. So it started the chaos between the families. And she went to live with the Simonellas. My stepfather, I now know him as my stepfather, went to live with them, and I was born into complete chaos in 1964.

• 7:53Shawn Ryan?

  What's your first memory?

• 7:57Speaker 04

  Being at my grandmother's house, sitting in a high chair, eating cereal, and arguing going on. That's my first memory.

• 8:12Shawn Ryan?

  That's your first memory?

• 8:13Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:16Shawn Ryan?

  Who's arguing?

• 8:17Speaker 04

  Not sure. But there's just a lot of chatter and a lot of... I think children can feel it, the turmoil. Doesn't really matter who's doing it as much as just the overall sense of danger. Something's not right. And I just remember feeling like I was the center of it. And I think I was.

• 8:45Shawn Ryan?

  Like it was because of you?

• 8:46Speaker 04

  Probably. A lot of it was. And I knew it. I knew it on some level. Kids just know. They sense when something's not right. And I had a sense that I was, uh... I don't want to say not wanted, but I was definitely aware, keenly aware, that I was because of it, in a sense. Some, on some level, I think I knew that I was contributing to the overall sense of disconnect that was among the family members.

• 9:33Shawn Ryan?

  How many family members?

• 9:36Speaker 04

  Let's see, two sets of grandparents. Mom had, I would say about 10 or 12 overall.

• 9:44Shawn Ryan?

  How many lived under one roof?

• 9:50Speaker 04

  Six.

• 9:51Shawn Ryan?

  Six.

• 9:51Speaker 04

  Six or seven. Yeah. Wow, these are great questions. I can tell. I'm gonna have to really think about it. My, the Simonellas and the Judds were on opposite sides of town. It was just Mamaw and Papaw in the one house, the Simonellas. And then four kids and two parents in the other house. So eight.

• 10:16Shawn Ryan?

  Eight.

• 10:16Speaker 04

  Yeah. At all times, pretty much.

• 10:20Shawn Ryan?

  What were the living conditions like? Do you remember?

• 10:23Speaker 04

  I do remember very well. Uh, it was very, very obvious to me that Mamaw and Papaw Simonella had money enough to join the country club. And Mom's side of the family, the Judds, were blue-collar workers. He owned a gas station, and she was a stay-at-home mom. So, you know, house messy, lots of chaos, and chores, and an unkept home. Whereas Mamaw and Papaw's was, you know, spotless, and everything was clean and organized.

• 11:11Shawn Ryan?

  Why did you, why do you think they allowed their granddaughter to live in that?

• 11:18Speaker 04

  What do you mean?

• 11:19Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, if one was a wealthy family and one wasn't.

• 11:23Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 11:27Speaker 04

  I don't understand what you mean, sweetie pie.

• 11:32Shawn Ryan?

  You were living under a roof with eight people.

• 11:34Speaker 04

  No, six and two, sorry.

• 11:37Shawn Ryan?

  Six people.

• 11:38Speaker 04

  Six people and then two people.

• 11:40Shawn Ryan?

  Did they aid, did they help? Did the other side of the family help at all?

• 11:43Speaker 04

  No, uh-uh. Very different people. Extremely different. Methodist and Catholic and then Baptist.

• 11:56Speaker 04

  So, very different households.

• 11:58Shawn Ryan?

  Gotcha.

• 11:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:01Shawn Ryan?

  What did your mom do?

• 12:04Speaker 04

  What do you mean? When she got pregnant with me?

• 12:06Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm, for work.

• 12:08Speaker 04

  She didn't. She was a student. She was in her senior high school year. So, I still don't know the details of whether she graduated or not. She always says, "I graduated into motherhood." So, I don't know if she graduated or not.

• 12:25Shawn Ryan?

  She was eighteen when she had you.

• 12:26Speaker 04

  She was eighteen years old, and so she was in her senior year of high school. And she got thrown out of the house. Nana changed the locks.

• 12:40Speaker 04

  Brutal. That's why I have so much heart for mother, because her childhood, as well as her teenage years, were lots of trauma, lots of trauma. And getting pregnant with me was the last thing she had in mind.

• 12:58Shawn Ryan?

  What was her childhood like?

• 13:02Speaker 04

  Lots of rules, lots of, you know, religion, in a sense, because we would find out later that Papa Judd was an alcoholic. And I remember one particular story where they would all come down to go to church, and he would be sitting at the kitchen table, hunkered over, drinking a Coke, reading the paper, Coke in the bottle, of course. And mom thought it was because he had worked so hard the night before, and the truth was, he was out all night drinking, and he was hungover.

• 13:40Speaker 04

  So, they'd go to church, and he would just, you know, stay home. So, there was a lot of disconnect with Papa Judd and Nana Judd.

• 13:50Speaker 04

  And so, mom grew up in a very dysfunctional family. She lost her brother to Hodgkin's disease at, well, right, right after I was born.

• 14:04Speaker 04

  And that's why she got pregnant, kind of thing. We'll talk about that in a minute. But mom grew up with piano lessons. She had everything she wanted, yet there was a lot of disconnect between Papa Judd and Nana Judd.

• 14:22Speaker 04

  So, there weren't a lot of kisses and hugs and "I love yous."

• 14:28Shawn Ryan?

  Any abuse?

• 14:31Speaker 04

  Not that I'm aware of. Verbal, perhaps, between the parents, but no, I don't think so. I haven't heard that part of the story, but I'm still investigating. So, I'm still learning.

• 14:46Shawn Ryan?

  Why do you say, you've mentioned a reason why she got pregnant?

• 14:51Speaker 04

  Well, Papa Judd and Nana Judd were away at the hospital, visiting Brian. And she was left home alone, and she invited over a boy. And they had sex on the couch in the living room, and I was conceived.

• 15:14Speaker 04

  So...

• 15:15Shawn Ryan?

  Who took the father role?

• 15:18Speaker 04

  Ashley's biological father, with whom I thought was my father, took the role of, and was made to believe he was the father.

• 15:29Shawn Ryan?

  Was made to believe he was the father?

• 15:30Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 15:34Shawn Ryan?

  Where do you guys go from here? What was the first move?

• 15:38Speaker 04

  Silmar, California. We moved out there. He got a job transfer, and we moved out there. And that's when things started to really go downhill.

• 15:52Shawn Ryan?

  When was Ashley born?

• 15:53Speaker 04

  She was born, I was four years old, so we're four years apart. She was born in 1968, in Silmar, California. Therein lies the song "All Downhill" from Ashland, because that's kind of where it started, at the beginning of our move to California.

• 16:17Shawn Ryan?

  What do you remember about California?

• 16:20Speaker 04

  Well, I remember living in a very boring neighborhood with kind of track housing. It was, they were all very similar. Pretty poor, but yet we had what we needed, certainly, but poor in a sense that I never remember going to restaurants or going anywhere, ever. And Michael was Ashley's father. Michael was always gone. He was always working. So, it was just the three of us, mom, Ashley, and myself. Very lonely. I remember that. I remember, I think I have felt alone most of my life. And that's where it really began.

• 17:02Speaker 04

  I started getting to a point where I was doing chores and starting to cook and do some things around the kitchen. Mother loved, mother, mother and Michael were very distracted. So, I was aware then that anything I could do to get attention was necessary.

• 17:27Shawn Ryan?

  How old are you right now, when you're talking about this? What age did this start?

• 17:32Speaker 04

  I was about four.

• 17:34Shawn Ryan?

  Four?

• 17:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's when Ashley was born. And I remember taking on a role with Ashley then. I've done a lot of this research about my life, and I think I was keenly aware at age six that I was responsible for her.

• 17:48Shawn Ryan?

  At age six?

• 17:49Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 17:51Shawn Ryan?

  What were your parents distracted doing?

• 17:54Speaker 04

  He was working and gone a lot, and mother was always in the clouds. She just wasn't present emotionally. She wasn't present, really.

• 18:09Speaker 04

  And I think she wanted fame and fortune in a way that, it started then. She had dreams.

• 18:18Speaker 04

  She had dreams, ambitions. She is so beautiful, like Hollywood actress beautiful at that point. And she is wanting more.

• 18:33Speaker 04

  She had had piano lessons, and I think she wanted to be an actress. That was her goal.

• 18:41Speaker 04

  So, with that, I just watched the Jane Mansfield documentary, and I see a lot of similarities in the two of them, because they wanted more and they wanted fame. And it was gonna be an interesting journey.

• 18:58Shawn Ryan?

  That's pretty ambitious for a

• 19:00Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 19:01Shawn Ryan?

  small-town

• 19:02Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 19:04Shawn Ryan?

  poverty-level

• 19:05Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 19:06Shawn Ryan?

  woman.

• 19:07Speaker 04

  Totally. But she had it. Nana Judd says that mom should have been an actress on a soap opera. And I agree.

• 19:18Shawn Ryan?

  Why is that?

• 19:19Speaker 04

  Because she's so freaking dramatic.

• 19:24Speaker 04

  Every scene, you know, she was the centerpiece.

• 19:31Shawn Ryan?

  I know I talk a lot about preparedness on this show. Most of the time, that conversation's about what gun you're carrying, what knife you have, what your EDC is. But here's the reality. People bleed out from injuries they could have survived all the time. And it's not because nobody wanted to help them. It's because nobody had a tourniquet on them when it happened. It's in the truck, it's in a kit at home, it's somewhere other than being on your person. And that does nothing for you in a parking lot or out on a trail. That's why, if you've been watching this show for a while, you've seen me, hand these, these tourniquets right here, out to guests.

• 20:12Shawn Ryan?

  This is the ETQ Gen 2 from Snake Staff Systems. And it's probably the most important thing I carry every day. It's about 65% smaller than a standard tourniquet. It rides in your pocket or on a belt, and you forget it's even there. And because of how it's built, it works on smaller limbs, too. That matters if you've got kids, and it matters if you're out with your dog. I think everybody should carry a tourniquet. A bad bleed can take a life in minutes, faster than any ambulance is getting to you. And the only version of this that actually works is the one that's on you.

• 20:51Shawn Ryan?

  One warning, I just want to tell you, the internet is full of cheap, Chinese-made tourniquets and counterfeits. They're on all the websites, they're cheap, they look legit, they're not, and this isn't the type of thing you want to gamble with. Snake Staff is made in the USA. Get the real thing at snakestaffsystems.com. They're on Amazon now, too. Get one for yourself and one for the people you love. Again, that's snakestaffsystems.com.

• 21:25Shawn Ryan?

  What did she do to make these dreams come true? Was she, I mean, was she?

• 21:32Speaker 04

  She was always changing her clothes. Like, if she had a t-shirt, she would go and buy things to put on the t-shirt. I mean, she was, I mean, she put shoulder pads in her pajamas, okay?

• 21:46Speaker 04

  She knew how to be crafty and creative with what she did. And she always wore makeup and lashes, and she was always a pin-up girl wannabe.

• 21:58Speaker 04

  And she was beautiful. So beautiful that men would follow her home kind of beauty. And she knew it, and she wanted to use that to get a better life.

• 22:14Shawn Ryan?

  Was she trying out for her?

• 22:16Speaker 04

  Not yet, but it wouldn't be long after Silmar that she would start to go to auditions and model and her thing was to be on game shows. We have a lot of footage of her being a contestant.

• 22:34Shawn Ryan?

  What game shows?

• 22:35Speaker 04

  Um, I can't remember all of them, but I remember one was, uh, was it the Hollywood Squares? I think so. You might want to look in your notes.

• 22:49Speaker 04

  Maybe it's not there.

• 22:52Speaker 04

  Password.

• 22:56Speaker 04

  She was quite a character, Sean. She was quite a colorful character even back then.

• 23:14Shawn Ryan?

  Your biological father is Charles Jordan.

• 23:18Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:19Shawn Ryan?

  Naomi's high school boyfriend. You didn't learn that he was your biological father for 30 years?

• 23:26Speaker 04

  Everyone kept it from me.

• 23:28Shawn Ryan?

  How did you find out?

• 23:29Speaker 04

  Even the town. Well, as the story goes, um, Michael Simonella, Ashley's biological father, uh, decided that he was gonna tell me. So he showed up at the Super Bowl. I was getting ready to perform at halftime at the Super Bowl. And he walked into the dressing room to tell me, and my manager at the time, uh, knew what was coming. And sort of kept him from doing so. I guess he called him out in the hallway and said, "You're not gonna do this to, you know, Winona right before she performs at the freaking Super Bowl." And he didn't tell me. He decided not to. We rode the bus home. I woke up in the, uh,

• 24:15Speaker 04

  I woke up at my home the next morning and got a phone call from a therapist that was seeing Ashley and Mom and I. Because at this point, Mom is really sick. Really sick. And we're doing a lot of family therapy. And I walk in a door to see Mom weeping and Ashley sitting next to her. And with as much prompting as possible, trying to get Mom to say something. I thought it was that she was either more sick or she was gonna have to quit the music business. Ashley blurted it out. She said, "Michael Simonella is not your biological father."

• 24:56Speaker 04

  And the very first comment out of my mouth was,

• 25:01Speaker 04

  "Mom,

• 25:03Speaker 04

  it's okay."

• 25:06Speaker 04

  Talk about codependent. And that's where I learned it. In the therapy session.

• 25:19Speaker 04

  I was pretty pissed.

• 25:23Speaker 04

  Pretty pissed.

• 25:26Speaker 04

  And the fact that Mom didn't do it, still to this day, challenges me to

• 25:32Speaker 04

  try to be better, not bitter, but I'm struggling at times with the fact that she wasn't the one that told me. Ashley knew since she was 11.

• 25:41Shawn Ryan?

  They kept it? Wow.

• 25:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:43Shawn Ryan?

  Since she was 11?

• 25:44Speaker 04

  The whole town knew. My manager knew.

• 25:49Speaker 04

  Everybody knew.

• 25:54Shawn Ryan?

  Why? I mean, why did he make the decision to try to tell you at the Super Bowl right before your performance?

• 26:00Speaker 04

  I still to this day do not know.

• 26:04Speaker 04

  I think it's because he wanted to get back at Mom.

• 26:09Shawn Ryan?

  It sounds like.

• 26:10Speaker 04

  Yeah. Why would he pick that spot? That's only the biggest show in town.

• 26:18Speaker 04

  So, there's that.

• 26:24Speaker 04

  Wouldn't like, you know, let's take a walk.

• 26:28Speaker 04

  So, yeah, it's crazy. Crazy making.

• 26:41Shawn Ryan?

  And so for the first time in your life, you realize that you have a biological father that you've never met?

• 26:47Speaker 04

  Correct. And I was pregnant with my son Elijah at the time that I learned it. So, talk about ironic.

• 26:59Speaker 04

  But yeah, I found out at 30. And I was devastated. Because my Mamaw and Papal Simonella were my world. They were everything to me. My parents were so young, 17 and 18, and Mamaw and Papal gave me the only real safe place of my childhood. So the fact that I'm learning that they're not biological was crushing.

• 27:32Speaker 04

  Just crushing.

• 27:37Shawn Ryan?

  When did, when did Michael Simonella find out that he wasn't your Dido?

• 27:42Speaker 04

  When Mom was pregnant with Ashley.

• 27:45Shawn Ryan?

  She told him?

• 27:46Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:47Shawn Ryan?

  Out of spite?

• 27:48Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:51Shawn Ryan?

  And he kept that for 26 years?

• 27:54Speaker 04

  Yes. Sure did.

• 27:59Speaker 04

  But he let me know it. I just didn't know it for sure.

• 28:03Shawn Ryan?

  He treated you different?

• 28:04Speaker 04

  Very much so.

• 28:07Speaker 04

  Even telling me that he loved Ashley more than he loved me.

• 28:10Shawn Ryan?

  Are you serious?

• 28:11Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:13Shawn Ryan?

  How often would he say that?

• 28:14Speaker 04

  When he would drink.

• 28:18Speaker 04

  Oh, he let me know.

• 28:21Speaker 04

  He let me know.

• 28:24Speaker 04

  And we don't speak to this day because of it.

• 28:28Speaker 04

  Him telling me that I'm not his and he doesn't want to have anything to do with me.

• 28:34Speaker 04

  So it wasn't a great relationship. Very troubled. Very troubled. Alcoholic, drug addict. So, not so much.

• 28:54Shawn Ryan?

  What were the first questions that went through your head about your biological father?

• 29:00Speaker 04

  Where is he? Do I know him? Have I met him? Do I have any idea who this man is?

• 29:11Speaker 04

  And will Mamaw and Papal still love me?

• 29:17Speaker 04

  Now that they know I know?

• 29:21Speaker 04

  And I would find out

• 29:25Speaker 04

  the story of when I was 12 that tells me I know that Mamaw loves me and I know that Papal loves me just as much, if not more. I was the chosen one.

• 29:35Shawn Ryan?

  What do you mean by that?

• 29:37Speaker 04

  They had one son, Michael, and I was the golden child. I was the firstborn granddaughter. And that's always a very special package. And yet, I was the daughter that Mamaw couldn't have. And I knew on a very deep level that I was their favorite. And they let me know it.

• 30:03Speaker 04

  And to this day, I am the way I am because of Mamaw and Papal. The son Grandpa.

• 30:10Speaker 04

  All of it is part of one heaven-on-earth experience with two people that knew I wasn't biologically connected to them, but yet they worked overtime making sure that I knew I was loved.

• 30:29Speaker 04

  So, cha-ching.

• 30:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, I was blessed. I was broken and blessed. That's why I wrote a song on the record called Broken and Blessed. Because I always felt like I didn't fit in. I always felt very different than Mom and Ashley. And I think I knew in my little spirit that I wasn't biologically Michael's, but I didn't have any proof. So I made up a lot of stories that I was different because I wasn't good enough or

• 31:05Speaker 04

  it was my fault. Right? I didn't complete the family. Grandchildren are supposed to come into the world and make the family better. And instead, there were a lot of bitter people running around. Fighting about when I was to visit and just a lot of arguing. I just remember a lot of

• 31:31Speaker 04

  yelling and

• 31:35Speaker 04

  slamming a phone back in, when you could hang up on somebody.

• 31:40Speaker 04

  A lot of that.

• 31:44Shawn Ryan?

  What was your and Ashley's relationship like?

• 31:47Speaker 04

  Well, to this day, she calls me Sister Mommy, and I don't think it's for good reasons sometimes because I think there was some resentment because I was in charge of Ashley. So there was that mother thing there that was telling her what to do.

• 32:05Shawn Ryan?

  You took on the motherly role at age, at age?

• 32:07Speaker 04

  Very early.

• 32:08Shawn Ryan?

  Age four to six?

• 32:10Speaker 04

  Yeah. When we did a, uh, they call it reconstruction. When you go to rehab, you do reconstructions and you play out scenes in your family to show the group what the dynamics were. And Ashley crawled through my legs when they asked her to be born. And Mother was just distraught. Because she crawled through my legs instead of hers. So that told me right there that there was some

• 32:40Speaker 04

  real

• 32:42Speaker 04

  I'm not her favorite.

• 32:46Speaker 04

  Because I had, I was in charge of her. I had to keep her alive kind of thing. I just knew that she would eat because of me. We were alone a lot.

• 32:58Speaker 04

  We were alone a lot. Like, I was a latchkey kid. They put your house key around your neck. And you come home to an empty house with snacks.

• 33:14Speaker 04

  And nobody there to watch you.

• 33:22Shawn Ryan?

  Did you have any fun as a kid?

• 33:26Speaker 04

  I have memories of Disneyland, but otherwise, not so much.

• 33:33Speaker 04

  They asked me in rehab to do a letter about, sort of to myself,

• 33:41Speaker 04

  about, you know, what I would have changed. And I would have definitely changed the fact that I knew at six, um, I think I had a meeting with myself and said, "Okay kiddo, time to grow up."

• 33:57Speaker 04

  I think I knew at age six that I was responsible for somebody.

• 34:03Speaker 04

  So, there wasn't a lot of playing and lightheartedness.

• 34:15Shawn Ryan?

  Were you ever able to meet your biological father?

• 34:19Speaker 04

  No, sir.

• 34:22Shawn Ryan?

  What have you learned about him?

• 34:26Speaker 04

  He was quite a hunk of hunk of burning love, I know that. Very handsome, very tall, very dark, um, a womanizer. Uh, he worked on the railroad, I've got his lantern.

• 34:42Speaker 04

  He was not present for my brother, whom I met five years ago, and we're very close.

• 34:50Speaker 04

  Uh, he and Michael didn't have a good relationship. He dropped him off at the grandparents and was gone a lot.

• 34:57Speaker 04

  So, both our parents were gone a lot, so we would spend our time with our grandparents. That's our memory of being a kid.

• 35:06Shawn Ryan?

  How did you find out about your brother?

• 35:11Speaker 04

  I was in the Nashville airport about 6:30 in the morning, headed for a flight, and a woman walked up to me and said, "I'm your cousin."

• 35:20Speaker 04

  And she said, "My dad and your dad are brothers." And I learned that day, that was, uh, years ago, about, I want to say fifteen or twenty years ago. And I thought, "Oh, my God, I have a brother." But I didn't set out to meet him right away, because I thought, maybe, "Oh, my God, what if he's a douche canoe?"

• 35:48Speaker 04

  And I never went for it at that point. It didn't occur to me, you know what I mean, to reach out and make it happen. I carried it with me for a while.

• 35:59Shawn Ryan?

  How did you know the woman that came up to you in the airport? I've had a lot of people come up.

• 36:03Speaker 04

  I didn't, yeah, people come up to me all the time in airports, so I wasn't... I was very open, because I was standing there waiting on somebody. And, um, she just introduced herself as Melanie, and I thought to myself, "Oh, my God, I'm meeting another family member." And she literally lives thirty minutes from me, just kept unfolding the story, little by little, little by slow.

• 36:28Shawn Ryan?

  Did you reach out to him first?

• 36:31Speaker 04

  I did not. I found out about what he looked like in the tabloids. And that propelled me into asking questions a little bit more, and starting to have a conversation with my brother. I was starting to learn just how disconnected they were. So, I was scared. "What if it's the same way with us? And what if he wants to just know me because I'm the girl who could sing?"

• 37:04Speaker 04

  Right? So, I was scared, really nervous. And then, when I finally decided to go meet him, two weeks later, he died.

• 37:14Speaker 04

  So, there's that.

• 37:21Speaker 04

  It was too late.

• 37:42Shawn Ryan?

  Your mom and Michael divorced in 1972, and you blame yourself. You were eight years old.

• 37:50Speaker 04

  Yes, I do. I was always in the middle of the fights. I even pulled them apart, kind of thing, and so I was always in the middle of it. And I literally think it's my fault at the time, then, and still do today.

• 38:09Shawn Ryan?

  You still do today?

• 38:10Speaker 04

  Mm.

• 38:11Shawn Ryan?

  You still?

• 38:12Speaker 04

  I still carry stuff, let's put it that way. I still think that I was definitely one of the reasons he left, because he told me so.

• 38:23Speaker 04

  So, there's that.

• 38:27Shawn Ryan?

  And you haven't been able to shake that?

• 38:29Speaker 04

  Hmm, not really, not really. I always wanted his attention. And I got it, but in a very mischievous and torture kind of way. He was very rough on me, like he pulled the car over at age twelve and said, "Drive."

• 38:47Speaker 04

  A stick shift at that.

• 38:51Speaker 04

  So, I drove. Walk across that log over the whitewater.

• 38:58Speaker 04

  Swim out to the middle of the Kentucky River and check the trot line with the current.

• 39:07Speaker 04

  So, I'm not really too sure he likes me very much.

• 39:11Shawn Ryan?

  And this was at age four?

• 39:14Speaker 04

  From four to, as far as I can remember, back to, yeah, four, I think, is what I remember remembering.

• 39:23Shawn Ryan?

  Because he was gone by the time you got back to Kentucky, correct?

• 39:26Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 39:27Shawn Ryan?

  So, this would, and you left Kentucky at age four, so that would have been at age four, he's telling you to go...

• 39:32Speaker 04

  He's telling me, well, not at that point, but when I was ten, twelve. This is when we were living in Camp Wake.

• 39:41Shawn Ryan?

  So, he was actually still in the picture after the divorce?

• 39:45Speaker 04

  A little bit, yeah. He took off to the beach, but he was around. He was definitely around, and it was not good.

• 39:53Speaker 04

  In and out.

• 39:55Shawn Ryan?

  So, after the divorce,

• 39:59Shawn Ryan?

  what was life like? Was it better with your mom?

• 40:02Speaker 04

  It was peaceful, more so.

• 40:04Shawn Ryan?

  You moved to West Hollywood?

• 40:05Speaker 04

  We moved to West Hollywood, but she started to get creepy boyfriends.

• 40:11Speaker 04

  She was very seldom without a man.

• 40:15Speaker 04

  So, that opened up a whole nother can of worms.

• 40:18Shawn Ryan?

  So, a lot of strangers in and out of the house?

• 40:20Speaker 04

  Yes. A lot of dope smoking, a lot of parties, a lot of drinking and drugging, and just, it wasn't very safe.

• 40:29Shawn Ryan?

  And you and Ashley were witness to all of this?

• 40:31Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 40:39Speaker 04

  Wasn't my favorite.

• 40:43Speaker 04

  Meanwhile, we're trying to go to school, and I was in Brownies, and there was a little bit of normalcy there, but not a whole lot.

• 40:52Shawn Ryan?

  Did you have anybody to look up to? Did you have anybody to talk to?

• 40:56Speaker 04

  Uh-uh.

• 40:58Shawn Ryan?

  Did anybody know what was going on?

• 40:59Speaker 04

  Uh-uh.

• 41:01Shawn Ryan?

  You wouldn't tell anybody?

• 41:02Speaker 04

  Uh-uh. I've been keeping secrets a long time.

• 41:07Shawn Ryan?

  Would you protect Ashley?

• 41:09Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 41:09Shawn Ryan?

  How would you do that?

• 41:12Speaker 04

  Well, everything from trying to get him to stop staring at us when we're in the bathtub, we could start there. I knew that that was weird, so I would say something.

• 41:24Shawn Ryan?

  Grown men would be...

• 41:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 41:27Shawn Ryan?

  Watching you.

• 41:28Speaker 04

  I remember him laying down on top of me while we were watching TV, and me feeling the boner, and getting up and moving away. Oh, yeah, I knew on some level that this guy was a creep.

• 41:42Speaker 04

  And he would beat up mom, and we would go to a motel. It was bad at times.

• 41:49Shawn Ryan?

  Holy shit.

• 41:52Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:56Shawn Ryan?

  What would you tell Ashley?

• 41:59Speaker 04

  Well, I don't remember telling her anything. I think I just was there, and, you know, hugging her and holding on to her.

• 42:11Speaker 04

  Letting her know I love her. I think from a very early age, Sean, I knew that I was also protecting mother on some level. I was responsible for her.

• 42:24Speaker 04

  And I felt incredibly capable by the time I was six, because I had been doing chores as long as I can remember. You know what I mean? Doing dishes, folding towels. I have a whole chapter in my book dedicated to mother and how she taught me how to fold perfect washcloth at age four. I just have memory after memory of helping, you know, I had the Mama's Little Helper apron.

• 42:57Speaker 04

  And I was.

• 43:01Speaker 04

  I was Mama's Little Helper.

• 43:06Shawn Ryan?

  Was Ashley attached to you?

• 43:08Speaker 04

  Very. We were very close. And I think on some level, she knew that I was responsible for her, too.

• 43:19Shawn Ryan?

  Did the sexual abuse get worse than that?

• 43:24Speaker 04

  It would later.

• 43:27Speaker 04

  It would later, but not at the time that Ashley was small. But Ashley, I think, has written about it in her book.

• 43:37Speaker 04

  On some level, Ashley was,

• 43:40Speaker 04

  you know, so little and so adorable. Just the cutest thing ever, and I just loved her so much that I

• 43:52Speaker 04

  put her first. And mom.

• 43:57Shawn Ryan?

  How would you put your mom first?

• 44:01Speaker 04

  Being delightful and not crying or complaining.

• 44:07Speaker 04

  If I knew something irritated her, I would try not to do it.

• 44:12Speaker 04

  She was very,

• 44:15Speaker 04

  she had a short fuse. So I think I just parented myself.

• 44:23Speaker 04

  Made sure that I was clean and did what I was supposed to do. And bringing her, her makeup so she could sit in bed and put on her makeup and I was always doing something for her.

• 44:38Shawn Ryan?

  Sheesh. So she just totally neglected you and Ashley?

• 44:45Speaker 04

  Well, not totally, but I would say that she was so easily distracted by being the parent. That the lady across the street would become more of a mother to me than my own mother kind of thing, because we were there a lot. Because she was gone

• 45:05Speaker 04

  to an audition or

• 45:09Speaker 04

  doing whatever, going out on a date.

• 45:13Shawn Ryan?

  Anything but being a mom?

• 45:15Speaker 04

  For the most part. Unfortunately, we were alone a lot. Like I said, I was a latchkey kid. I felt incredibly alone. And yet she was so delightful when she was present.

• 45:30Speaker 04

  Again, the Mariska, I've known Mariska since I was five. We were in kindergarten together and we're still best friends.

• 45:38Speaker 04

  Hargitay. And

• 45:42Speaker 04

  I remember going over to her house for a meal kind of thing, like, and I have another best friend, Angelique Lamore, Louis Lamore's daughter. And going over to her house for a meal, they sat down at six o'clock every night and had dinner. I remember thinking, that is an incredibly big deal.

• 46:01Speaker 04

  I just didn't have that.

• 46:05Speaker 04

  And that's why I learned to cook, because it delighted mom. And to this day, I'm a passionate cook. Because I love to cook. And it started really early.

• 46:26Shawn Ryan?

  What age did you start singing? What age did music become?

• 46:29Speaker 04

  Three.

• 46:30Shawn Ryan?

  Age three?

• 46:31Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:33Speaker 04

  Well, I have videos to prove it. I loved to sing at three, but I didn't become a real artist until I was eight. I picked up the guitar at eight.

• 46:44Shawn Ryan?

  Eight years old?

• 46:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, I knew. I just knew, Sean, I knew. This is my destiny.

• 46:52Speaker 04

  And I learned every Joni Mitchell song I could find. And music became my passion.

• 46:59Shawn Ryan?

  Is eight when you went back to Kentucky?

• 47:02Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 47:02Shawn Ryan?

  Why did you go back to Kentucky?

• 47:05Speaker 04

  Well, mom went to nursing school at Eastern Kentucky University. And she sent us to live with Michael.

• 47:15Speaker 04

  So we lived down on the river in a summer house with no heat.

• 47:22Speaker 04

  We had a wood burning stove in the kitchen. Coal stove in the kitchen.

• 47:28Speaker 04

  And we lived there with Michael for a bit.

• 47:31Shawn Ryan?

  So she basically struck out in LA with her auditions?

• 47:36Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 47:37Shawn Ryan?

  Her ambitions to become an actress. Goes back to Kentucky to become a nurse.

• 47:42Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 47:42Shawn Ryan?

  Does she actually become a nurse?

• 47:44Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 47:45Shawn Ryan?

  She does?

• 47:45Speaker 04

  She wanted to be a midwife.

• 47:47Shawn Ryan?

  And sends you and Ashley back to the man that she just divorced?

• 47:51Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 47:52Shawn Ryan?

  Couple of years ago?

• 47:53Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:57Shawn Ryan?

  How did that, I mean, how did that, what was that like for you to have to move back in with somebody that you thought hated you?

• 48:04Speaker 04

  Right. It was both mortifying and magical, because we lived way out in the woods. And, I mean, I remember shopping at the co-op. I never remember going out to eat or going to a regular supermarket, ever. We always went to the co-op. We bought everything in those big white buckets. And it was magical because he made it that way. I have two dreamers for parents. They made everything fun that they could. Remember the movie It's a Beautiful Life? And the father is in prison and he, I felt the same way. When I saw that movie, it really struck me that both my parents were so,

• 48:47Speaker 04

  such dreamers that they made everything fun. So going to the co-op was fun. Living out in the middle of nowhere was fun. You know, he made it that way. They also, you know, consumed a great deal of marijuana. So there's that.

• 49:08Speaker 04

  So

• 49:12Speaker 04

  it was Ashley and me on an adventure all the time.

• 49:16Shawn Ryan?

  Did you like being away from your mother?

• 49:18Speaker 04

  No.

• 49:18Shawn Ryan?

  You didn't?

• 49:19Speaker 04

  No. And I didn't care for Michael. I knew on some deep, deep, deep level that he was not a fan of mine.

• 49:39Shawn Ryan?

  Did you actually, did you move to, back to Kentucky then, or did you go to Austin and then Vegas and then Kentucky?

• 49:45Speaker 04

  That was later.

• 49:46Shawn Ryan?

  That was later?

• 49:46Speaker 04

  That was after Kentucky. I was probably 15 then.

• 49:50Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 49:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, Camp Wig was the name of the house that we lived in. It was a little camp, summer camp spot, and we lived in the house.

• 50:05Speaker 04

  I'll never forget that the walls of the house didn't go to the ceiling.

• 50:11Speaker 04

  And it was hard to keep the heat in. We had one fireplace and one stove in the kitchen. And that's it for heat. And it was cold. You know, 12 blankets on the bed kind of thing.

• 50:28Shawn Ryan?

  Were you guys going to school?

• 50:29Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm. We took the bus. And it was about an hour ride to school.

• 50:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was a trip, trippy time, really trippy time. The only thing good that came of it was I became a really good guitar player.

• 50:46Shawn Ryan?

  How did that happen?

• 50:49Speaker 04

  Mother got a guitar from someone after she left California. Someone gave her a guitar.

• 50:55Speaker 04

  And there it is in the corner, day after day. And I probably picked it up to beat Ashley with it or something.

• 51:05Speaker 04

  And it became my best friend. It became an appendage. I was known as the girl with a guitar.

• 51:12Shawn Ryan?

  You taught yourself how to play?

• 51:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:16Shawn Ryan?

  What kind of music would you play?

• 51:18Speaker 04

  Joni Mitchell, Bonnie Raitt.

• 51:22Speaker 04

  Anything I could get my hands on, really, because we were so poor. We didn't really have the money to buy records. So I just listened to everything I could. And Michael had a really great

• 51:34Speaker 04

  setup at his place, because he loved music, loved the blues and rock and roll. So I got the blues and rock and roll from Michael. Bluegrass and Joni Mitchell and Bonnie Raitt. That was it. That was my everything. I knew every song.

• 51:56Speaker 04

  At the age of, you know, 10, I'm singing love songs.

• 52:01Speaker 04

  So it was pretty trippy. And when they would have parties, they would make me sing.

• 52:08Shawn Ryan?

  Did you like that?

• 52:09Speaker 04

  Mortified.

• 52:10Shawn Ryan?

  You were mortified?

• 52:11Speaker 04

  So shy and so backwards. But Michael would make me do it, and I'm very grateful to him for that.

• 52:22Speaker 04

  I would carry that on into my teenage years.

• 52:29Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, growing up in, like this,

• 52:35Shawn Ryan?

  broken family, taking care of your sister, parents aren't present.

• 52:43Shawn Ryan?

  There's a lot of kids that are going through this right now.

• 52:46Speaker 04

  I know that.

• 52:49Speaker 04

  I know that.

• 52:50Shawn Ryan?

  What kind of advice would you have for kids that are going through something similar right now?

• 52:56Speaker 04

  Find something that you're so passionate about that it saves your life.

• 53:02Speaker 04

  Honestly, whether it's sports or anything creative. I know to this day, I would not have made it if I didn't have music. I would not have made it.

• 53:16Speaker 04

  It kept me focused. I became a champion, because I was forced to be. It was the only thing in my life that I remember thinking, I can do this. This is me. 100%.

• 53:41Shawn Ryan?

  Where do we go from here?

• 53:45Speaker 04

  What do you mean?

• 53:46Shawn Ryan?

  From Kentucky.

• 53:48Speaker 04

  That's a great question.

• 53:51Speaker 04

  I'm trying to remember. There's so much trauma. I don't remember some things. I'm having a hard time with the chronological part. I remember when I wrote my book, I had to get help with, what do we have nowadays to go and find out about ourselves?

• 54:11Shawn Ryan?

  A lot of things, but...

• 54:13Speaker 04

  But I'm serious. If you want to know about, you know, someone famous, you can look it up.

• 54:20Speaker 04

  I think

• 54:22Speaker 04

  we went

• 54:25Speaker 04

  back to California.

• 54:27Shawn Ryan?

  Marin, California.

• 54:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, Marin County.

• 54:32Speaker 04

  Because she's still wanting to be a nurse. She went to Eastern Kentucky University in Kentucky to be a midwife, and then she decided to go back out to California.

• 54:44Speaker 04

  She went to visit a best friend out there, the one who sent her mailbox weed.

• 54:51Speaker 04

  She used to send her dope in the mail.

• 54:55Speaker 04

  She went out to see her and decided, ooh, I have to live here. It was one of the richest counties in the United States, kind of thing. And we went back out there.

• 55:06Shawn Ryan?

  So you and, but you and your mom started kind of the very, very beginning of your singing career together in Kentucky before you moved back to California?

• 55:17Speaker 04

  Correct. Right. We had nothing.

• 55:20Shawn Ryan?

  So she had graduated nursing school?

• 55:22Speaker 04

  Right.

• 55:23Shawn Ryan?

  And then what happened after that?

• 55:24Speaker 04

  We were on welfare. I'll never forget that.

• 55:30Speaker 04

  She went to go to school in Marin County.

• 55:35Speaker 04

  That was the bottom line. She wanted to be a nurse. That was her goal.

• 55:41Shawn Ryan?

  Well, she also obviously wanted to be, wanted to start a career with you. So how did that, I guess what I'm asking, if you showed interest in, in, being, in, being an actress?

• 55:55Speaker 04

  Right.

• 55:56Shawn Ryan?

  Did she, I mean, you obviously

• 56:00Shawn Ryan?

  are very talented.

• 56:01Speaker 04

  Right.

• 56:01Shawn Ryan?

  You must have been very talented back then.

• 56:04Speaker 04

  I was.

• 56:04Shawn Ryan?

  And so, did she show interest in music prior to that, or did she see you as a gateway into what she wanted?

• 56:13Speaker 04

  Good thing. Every time we would sing together, people were mesmerized. I think by the time we go back out to California, Marin County, Mom knows, Mom knows that there's something really unique and special about the two of us singing together and started to pursue that. The acting thing had kind of come and gone. She knew that we were,

• 56:38Speaker 04

  that it was possible for us to make it. I think in her mind, she was very convinced that there was a place for us in the music world.

• 56:50Shawn Ryan?

  Do you remember the first time she expressed interest in what you were doing?

• 56:57Speaker 04

  Well, she did when I was about eight with a guitar. She gave me the guitar and I started to play and sing, and then she would start to harmonize. And then we would learn another song, and then another song. And then we would start singing for people when they'd come over to eat.

• 57:16Speaker 04

  We would play and sing to anybody.

• 57:19Speaker 04

  Right? So she was training me then

• 57:25Speaker 04

  to be an artist.

• 57:28Speaker 04

  Here, learn this song. Let's learn a song for Nana for Mother's Day.

• 57:35Speaker 04

  I remember some of the first songs I learned because I

• 57:39Speaker 04

  remember it being a Mother's Day or Christmas. And we didn't have a lot. We had,

• 57:47Speaker 04

  Ashley calls it food insecurities. And so we would sing.

• 57:53Speaker 04

  And at Christmas time, that's what we did. We didn't have presents.

• 57:58Speaker 04

  So we would sing and have dinner, soup, beans and cornbread.

• 58:05Speaker 04

  And that's what we did. So by the time we get to Marin, she knows. She bought me with what money she had, a tape recorder. And that's how we learned how to, we would push play and play what we had just recorded into another tape recorder and sing harmony. We call it stacking. And that's how we made our tapes.

• 58:31Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 58:35Shawn Ryan?

  Did you like that?

• 58:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 58:37Shawn Ryan?

  Did you like that? Was this the first time you had a positive bonding experience with your mom?

• 58:43Speaker 04

  That's why it was so magical.

• 58:46Speaker 04

  It was the one time when I felt all was right in the world.

• 58:54Shawn Ryan?

  And was Ashley a part of this?

• 58:56Speaker 04

  No. She wasn't, but soon after we got to Marin, Mom started getting her lessons in the violin. And she was terrible. God love her. She, she couldn't play very well. And I think Mom tried. I think she tried to the best of her ability, but it didn't work out so well for Ashley.

• 59:23Speaker 04

  And that's when Ashley got interested in books and Ashley started to get in, real independent of the two of us because I think on some level she knew that she wasn't going to be a part of the duo.

• 59:38Shawn Ryan?

  Now she felt, she felt left out.

• 59:40Speaker 04

  Yeah. And she became an actress at a very early age.

• 59:48Speaker 04

  So Ashley was always more popular than I, and she had more, like she was a cheerleader and president of the French club and things like that. I was always barely hanging on in school, but I was a rock star in my mind.

• 1:00:08Speaker 04

  So Mom saw that opportunity as the duo making it in show business.

• 1:00:19Shawn Ryan?

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• 1:01:04Shawn Ryan?

  and the Happy with Helix guarantee for returns and exchanges. Go to helixsleep.com/srs for 20% off site-wide. That's helixsleep.com/srs for 20% off site-wide. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you.

• 1:01:25Shawn Ryan?

  In 1977, the demo of Hillbilly Boogie is the hillbilly women. I believe you're 13 years old at the time. Who did you guys, who did you give that to?

• 1:01:39Speaker 04

  She was dating a guy that worked at a studio. So there's that. I think she set her sights on him. And he took us into the studio and made a recording of the two of us singing together. And it's somewhere on the internet. Somebody bought it and sent it to me. I'm still amazed. Like for Christmas or something, last year, year before.

• 1:02:10Speaker 04

  And because he sold it.

• 1:02:16Speaker 04

  That's weird.

• 1:02:17Shawn Ryan?

  Wait, somebody gave it to you for Christmas?

• 1:02:21Speaker 04

  The earliest recording of the Judds.

• 1:02:23Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 1:02:24Speaker 04

  I know.

• 1:02:25Shawn Ryan?

  What was it like watching that?

• 1:02:27Speaker 04

  Well, I couldn't believe it, first of all, that he would sell it. And then I was thrilled because I thought, well, this is, this is the very first time ever hearing those notes come out of us.

• 1:02:43Speaker 04

  It was profound.

• 1:02:46Speaker 04

  And me realizing, bless your little heart, you were wanting to make it so bad. Well, I knew and I would, I knew that I would. I knew. And everybody didn't, of course, believe me and laughed at me and said, get a real job and go to college and all that.

• 1:03:05Speaker 04

  But I was convinced I was going to make it.

• 1:03:10Speaker 04

  I knew it. And Mom knew it too, I think. She tells me so.

• 1:03:19Shawn Ryan?

  What happened after that?

• 1:03:23Speaker 04

  Okay, well, you have to give me a year, dear.

• 1:03:26Shawn Ryan?

  What happened after the 1977 demo of the Hillbilly Boogie?

• 1:03:30Speaker 04

  I think that's when we went to Austin. Mom got a job at a weather, as a weather girl

• 1:03:41Speaker 04

  at the local TV station. I think somehow she blew that, though. But she went to Austin because she had a man there who played for a group called,

• 1:03:54Speaker 04

  well, it was,

• 1:03:59Speaker 04

  oh, hang on a second.

• 1:04:02Speaker 04

  Ray Benson, The Sleep at the Wheel.

• 1:04:06Speaker 04

  Very popular group in Texas. And she had a boyfriend in that group and we went to live with him. I slept on the couch in the living room and she had

• 1:04:18Speaker 04

  relations with him

• 1:04:22Speaker 04

  for a summer and we would go hang out at a bar and watch them play.

• 1:04:30Speaker 04

  I was 14, 15, somewhere in there.

• 1:04:41Shawn Ryan?

  So how did your music career start to develop? Did it start to develop in Austin?

• 1:04:47Speaker 04

  No, I wish. Nobody knew I sang. Ray Benson, who's very popular.

• 1:04:54Speaker 04

  Character, oh my god. He said he didn't know that I sang when I was there. Mom was the stage mother convinced that we were gonna make it, so she was in charge of everything. I have a story out in Marin, though. One of my first memories of being in show business, in our minds. I'm driving the 57 Chevy that she purchased for $1,800. And I had won tickets to go see Merle Haggard by muck and stalls at a nearby ranch. And she's in the back row in a joint with her seamed hose, I'll never forget that. And I'm driving the car at like 15 or 16.

• 1:05:39Speaker 04

  And we're going to see Merle Haggard. I had won tickets on a radio show. And they let us park next to the bus.

• 1:05:50Speaker 04

  And we went and saw the show. George Jones was opening. I remember that really well. And we ended up going on the road with Merle for three days.

• 1:06:03Shawn Ryan?

  You ended up going on the road with Merle for three days? How was that?

• 1:06:09Speaker 04

  Well, let's just say, I was really confused. I wasn't sure what was going on. But she stayed with him for three days. And we were on the road. And I remember being on a tour bus, thinking, this is it. So by the time we leave Marin, I'm sold. I'm done with school. I'm ready to go.

• 1:06:32Shawn Ryan?

  That's it?

• 1:06:33Speaker 04

  I'm done. I'm ready to go on the road.

• 1:06:37Speaker 04

  So by the time we get to Austin, I am invested in the whole idea of playing music for a living. And she knew to. I mean, she was ready. So the two of us are ripe and ready.

• 1:06:52Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 1:06:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:06:54Shawn Ryan?

  What was Merle Haggard like?

• 1:06:58Speaker 04

  Pretty addicted, you know, to his dope and alcohol. And they were in some kind of love affair thing going on, so I was up in the front of the bus with the driver.

• 1:07:13Speaker 04

  I think I had my first kiss on the bus. Noel Haggard.

• 1:07:26Speaker 04

  Whatever. But that was my first kiss.

• 1:07:30Speaker 04

  He was on the bus. It was Merle's son. And we went on the road, and here we are, hillbilly women.

• 1:07:39Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 1:07:40Speaker 04

  I know.

• 1:07:42Shawn Ryan?

  Did you ever partake?

• 1:07:43Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:07:44Shawn Ryan?

  Drugs?

• 1:07:44Speaker 04

  No, I knew. Having two addict parents, I knew that it was dead end for me.

• 1:07:52Speaker 04

  I mean, I tried it when I was, I think, 13 one time, and it didn't work for me. And I knew that it would hurt my voice, and I wasn't gonna do that.

• 1:08:03Speaker 04

  Wasn't gonna stop me.

• 1:08:07Shawn Ryan?

  And it was a, I think I skipped over, it was a flood that actually got you guys out of?

• 1:08:12Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 1:08:12Shawn Ryan?

  Kentucky, correct?

• 1:08:13Speaker 04

  Correct. That was one of the things that got us out.

• 1:08:17Shawn Ryan?

  And you lost everything?

• 1:08:18Speaker 04

  Lost everything.

• 1:08:19Shawn Ryan?

  And now, did Michael stay behind in Kentucky?

• 1:08:22Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:08:23Shawn Ryan?

  He did?

• 1:08:23Speaker 04

  Yes. He stayed behind. And we went out to California.

• 1:08:27Shawn Ryan?

  Did they get back together during the time you were in Kentucky? Do you remember?

• 1:08:31Speaker 04

  Yes and no. They tried for a minute, and it didn't work at all. Like, he tried to choke her to death, and I pulled her off of him, kinda thing.

• 1:08:41Shawn Ryan?

  He tried to choke her to death?

• 1:08:42Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:08:46Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:08:47Shawn Ryan?

  Do you wanna describe that?

• 1:08:48Speaker 04

  Well, he just, we were meeting at the public library.

• 1:08:55Speaker 04

  And he literally put her up against one of the columns in the building. And I remember him choking her and her not being able to breathe, and pulling him off of her. And thinking, oh, well, this isn't going so well, this meet and greet thing. You know, where you transfer the kids? And thinking, he's gonna kill her at some point. They're not gonna make it if they continue to work together, or so I thought. And they were very dangerous together. So I think they tried, but it didn't work.

• 1:09:34Speaker 04

  Duh.

• 1:09:37Speaker 04

  And I knew that they were oil and water.

• 1:09:43Speaker 04

  Too much anger there for lying to him about me, and there's a lot of resentment there, and I felt it.

• 1:09:54Shawn Ryan?

  So if it wasn't for that flood in Kentucky, maybe this music career never would've taken off?

• 1:09:58Speaker 04

  I think you're right. I think you're right. I agree. I agree with that.

• 1:10:05Speaker 04

  Mom was always looking for the next best thing. The next right thing is picking something healthy, though. She would pick these things and go move. And I said in my book that I spent most of my teenage years in the back of a U-Haul it on the way to some new adventure. She had quite an eye

• 1:10:31Speaker 04

  for the expensive and dreams and wanting us to have a better life, so she kept moving. Ashley went to 13 different schools by the time she graduated.

• 1:10:48Shawn Ryan?

  Would I be wrong if I said your mom was an opportunist?

• 1:10:52Speaker 04

  I don't think you're wrong, no. I think it was incredibly hard for her, on some levels, to maintain a job. Because she was so beautiful. A lot of sexual harassment and that kinda thing. And she did have stars in her eyes.

• 1:11:11Speaker 04

  That was very obvious to everyone.

• 1:11:15Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think she ever found real love?

• 1:11:22Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think she ever experienced that?

• 1:11:26Speaker 04

  Yes. Yes, but they weren't healthy relationships.

• 1:11:32Speaker 04

  Abuse was definitely, unfortunately, you know, wearing the sunglasses and scarves.

• 1:11:42Speaker 04

  She had some real bad experiences.

• 1:11:47Speaker 04

  Again, she was so freaking beautiful, like Hollywood actress beautiful, and she couldn't help it. Even in her nursing uniform. Put some lipstick on that, and all of a sudden, she looks like she's in a movie.

• 1:12:06Speaker 04

  So she had a rough time finding healthy relationships, for sure.

• 1:12:13Speaker 04

  And it cost Ashley and me a lot.

• 1:12:16Shawn Ryan?

  Did that abuse, did the physical abuse come to you guys, too?

• 1:12:20Speaker 04

  No, it did me, but that was a cousin. That would be when I was 12. I was molested by my cousin.

• 1:12:28Shawn Ryan?

  How did that happen?

• 1:12:30Speaker 04

  It was a funeral, my great-grandmother, and he molested me the night before the funeral.

• 1:12:38Speaker 04

  But it was never a boyfriend. I mean, there was never any touching or anything like that, thank god. To this day, Sean, I don't know how I wasn't abused. I was sexually harassed, but never physically, you know, raped or anything like that.

• 1:12:56Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think it's possible you were physically abused and you blocked it out?

• 1:13:00Speaker 04

  Yes. Yes, I think it's possible. But I was so independent and carefree that I'm the kinda kid that, like I said, when he laid down on top of me, I got up and ran out. I was a very, you know, with-it kid. I knew what didn't feel right. But it's possible.

• 1:13:28Speaker 04

  Maybe I should be hypnotized or something.

• 1:13:30Shawn Ryan?

  How many things have come up from the past that you don't remember that all of a sudden click?

• 1:13:35Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 1:13:38Speaker 04

  Here and there, a little bit. I do so much work. I've been in therapy since I was 16.

• 1:13:45Speaker 04

  So maybe I'll look into that.

• 1:13:51Speaker 04

  Maybe I'll look into that. I'm still discovering a lot of things, right? Because I'm writing a book, and I'm figuring some of this stuff out, so I'm definitely ready to take it head-on.

• 1:14:08Shawn Ryan?

  And then you went from Austin to Vegas, correct?

• 1:14:12Shawn Ryan?

  What was in Vegas?

• 1:14:14Speaker 04

  We lived in a hotel room. And

• 1:14:20Speaker 04

  my mother was a secretary.

• 1:14:25Speaker 04

  And I was out of school.

• 1:14:30Speaker 04

  I had to repeat the 10th grade because of it.

• 1:14:34Speaker 04

  I lived in a hotel with nobody to tell me yes or no.

• 1:14:41Speaker 04

  And I went roller skating every day. That's what I remember doing. That and playing pinball in the employee's cafeteria. That's where we ate.

• 1:14:54Speaker 04

  I'm quite the traveling kid, aren't I?

• 1:15:01Speaker 04

  Oh, Lord. And she's working on the set of this TV show, and I'm living the life in Vegas.

• 1:15:13Shawn Ryan?

  Any music in Vegas?

• 1:15:15Speaker 04

  No. I don't remember having any opportunity in Vegas, unfortunately.

• 1:15:20Shawn Ryan?

  How long was Vegas? Do you remember?

• 1:15:22Speaker 04

  Couple of months.

• 1:15:23Shawn Ryan?

  That's it?

• 1:15:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, couple of months.

• 1:15:25Shawn Ryan?

  And from Vegas, you show up in Franklin, Tennessee?

• 1:15:28Speaker 04

  That's right. We come to Nashville.

• 1:15:30Shawn Ryan?

  What brought you to Franklin?

• 1:15:33Speaker 04

  Fame and fortune.

• 1:15:35Shawn Ryan?

  How did you figure out Nashville was the place to?

• 1:15:38Speaker 04

  That's a great question. You'll have to read mom's book, I guess, to figure that out 'cause I can't remember details about it.

• 1:15:47Speaker 04

  There wasn't a man. So that wasn't it. I think mom knew that Nashville was it. I think she set her sights on Nashville.

• 1:15:59Speaker 04

  You'll have to do some investigating on that one.

• 1:16:02Shawn Ryan?

  And back then Franklin was probably

• 1:16:06Shawn Ryan?

  an affordable place to live outside of Nashville.

• 1:16:08Speaker 04

  Right, right. We lived in a motel, though, for a while.

• 1:16:14Speaker 04

  And then she got us into school. I'm not sure why Franklin. Maybe she had a friend. Again, you'll have to read her book, probably.

• 1:16:24Speaker 04

  She got a job as a secretary for someone in the music business. I will give her that. I can remember that. And so she became a secretary on Music Row. So maybe that was part of it.

• 1:16:43Speaker 04

  And we were living in a motel. I remember eating at McDonald's and lots of bologna and crackers.

• 1:16:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, she went for it. She was determined.

• 1:16:58Speaker 04

  And he found out we could sing, and so I think he might have paid for a tape or two. But we decided that we wanted to be in music. Well, mom decided. And I went with it.

• 1:17:11Shawn Ryan?

  But I think, didn't you?

• 1:17:15Shawn Ryan?

  Didn't you? It was the it was the original recording that you guys presented in California, if I'm not mistaken?

• 1:17:27Speaker 04

  What do you mean?

• 1:17:28Shawn Ryan?

  You presented in California, the, uh...

• 1:17:36Shawn Ryan?

  Hillbilly Boogie. Was it that, was it that same recording? That you guys have recorded yourself?

• 1:17:44Speaker 04

  The recording of Hillbilly Boogie was California, though. That was a studio in California.

• 1:17:50Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm. But was it that recording that you then later presented?

• 1:17:54Speaker 04

  We might have, actually.

• 1:17:55Shawn Ryan?

  In Franklin?

• 1:17:56Speaker 04

  Now that I think about it, yeah. That could be, actually. I'm not 100% sure. Because at that point, we're in the studio a little bit here and there in Nashville. So we must have gotten money from the guy that mom worked for to make a demo kind of thing. Again, that was online, and I think I have that somewhere.

• 1:18:24Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 1:18:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:18:27Speaker 04

  Yeah. We started to, you know, do things here and there. We did a morning show. I would get up at 2:00 in the morning. We would go do the show. We were between the farm report and the weather. And then go to school. And we did that like once a week.

• 1:18:44Shawn Ryan?

  You went to Franklin High?

• 1:18:45Speaker 04

  Yep, went to Franklin High.

• 1:18:47Shawn Ryan?

  This is 1979?

• 1:18:49Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:18:50Shawn Ryan?

  Shortly after you got kicked out of the house.

• 1:18:53Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 1:18:55Shawn Ryan?

  Where did you go live?

• 1:18:58Speaker 04

  Well, mom was gone so much that I decided one weekend I wasn't gonna stick around, so I actually went to stay with a best friend. I was supposed to stay home with Ashley, and I didn't. And a friend and I, uh, went down to Atlanta, Georgia. He went down to visit somebody, and I went to see a boy that I had met at a local club. And mom found out about it and said, "Don't come home." So I ended up living with his mother and cleaning houses for like four months.

• 1:19:33Speaker 04

  So I stayed down in Atlanta. Buckhead.

• 1:19:38Speaker 04

  And

• 1:19:42Speaker 04

  she sent all my stuff with her boyfriend on a bus. And I was gonna just be in music

• 1:19:51Speaker 04

  and clean houses. And, um, she ended up saying, "Come home." But my stepfather, Michael, said, "No, you can't go back there. You're going to college."

• 1:20:07Speaker 04

  And...

• 1:20:09Shawn Ryan?

  So now he cares all of a sudden?

• 1:20:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:20:11Shawn Ryan?

  How did he get back in the picture?

• 1:20:12Speaker 04

  That is, well, he came to rescue me because my car broke down.

• 1:20:17Speaker 04

  And he said, "No," and I went and lived with him in Ocala, Florida. I will never forget it. He was, uh, in the horse business at that point. He had gotten himself involved with horses. And he said, "Nope, you're going to college. You're not going back there with her." Made me cut my hair, wouldn't let me wear makeup.

• 1:20:40Speaker 04

  And that's when I attempted suicide at 17 because I thought, "It's over. I can't go back to Tennessee. I don't want to be here anymore." So I attempted suicide and um, mom ended up taking me back.

• 1:20:56Shawn Ryan?

  How did you attempt suicide?

• 1:20:58Speaker 04

  I went and got wasted at a bar. I still, to this day, can't believe it, that they served me. I didn't even have an ID.

• 1:21:08Speaker 04

  And I got wasted and got in a car and headed for a tree at about 70.

• 1:21:16Speaker 04

  And the tree and I didn't meet. And I ended up

• 1:21:23Speaker 04

  turning the opposite direction in the middle of the highway. To this day, I don't know how it happened.

• 1:21:30Speaker 04

  I must have spun around and it just kept spinning. And I can't believe it, that I'm alive.

• 1:21:39Speaker 04

  And then at that point, I think he saw that I was, you know, obviously something was wrong. And he took me back to be with her. And at that point, she had met a co-manager. And I ended up living with him and his wife and taking care of their twins.

• 1:21:57Shawn Ryan?

  A co-manager?

• 1:21:58Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm. He took us to meet a manager who had the money, but he did the work. Does that make sense?

• 1:22:06Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:22:06Speaker 04

  Like an investor?

• 1:22:08Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:22:09Speaker 04

  Kind of thing where he did all the street work, walking the streets and selling the product. And, uh, Ken Stilts was our first manager.

• 1:22:21Speaker 04

  I'll never forget it. We actually got a manager. Or we, she. I just sang.

• 1:22:41Shawn Ryan?

  And so in 1983, how did you get the RCA deal? It sounds like one thing's really, really turned around.

• 1:22:50Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah, I think. Uh, it's one of the most magical stories in country music history. Or I should say, history. We went into RCA Records after hours and sang live in front of the powers that be and got signed on the spot.

• 1:23:13Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding?

• 1:23:14Speaker 04

  No kidding.

• 1:23:15Shawn Ryan?

  How did you get in there?

• 1:23:18Shawn Ryan?

  Do you know?

• 1:23:18Speaker 04

  Well, our manager, Ken Stilts,

• 1:23:23Speaker 04

  knew somebody, and that person knew somebody, and they just worked it out, I guess, and everybody got around a table and mom and I walked in. And, um, of course, she went to the bathroom first.

• 1:23:39Speaker 04

  We walked in, sat down, sang, left, went to a nearby restaurant and waited.

• 1:23:48Speaker 04

  And our manager walked in and said, "Congratulations, you are now an RCA artist."

• 1:23:56Shawn Ryan?

  What song did you sing?

• 1:23:58Speaker 04

  A song that mom wrote called "Change of Heart." It's on some record somewhere. And "A Mother's Smile," that we ended up recording as well. And

• 1:24:11Speaker 04

  I think there was a third and fourth one, but I don't remember. Those are the only two I remember.

• 1:24:16Shawn Ryan?

  But did you have any idea how big that was gonna be?

• 1:24:18Speaker 04

  No. I had no idea, Sean.

• 1:24:21Shawn Ryan?

  Nothing?

• 1:24:22Speaker 04

  I had no idea. I was so backwards. I didn't, I couldn't even balance a checkbook.

• 1:24:30Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I mean, you're only 17.

• 1:24:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm 17. I know. And I didn't get to graduate on time because of all of the Vegas stuff. And, uh, so I was just out of high school. Barely out of high school. And I got a record deal? Like...

• 1:24:49Shawn Ryan?

  What do you mean, "out of high school"? It's... What do you mean, "out of high school"? You dropped out?

• 1:24:55Speaker 04

  No, I didn't make it because I didn't have enough credits. I had 69 on a test and I didn't get, I didn't pass the test, and so I was short one elective.

• 1:25:05Shawn Ryan?

  So you never graduated?

• 1:25:07Speaker 04

  Uh-uh. No, I did graduate. I went to summer school. But I didn't get to walk the line.

• 1:25:14Shawn Ryan?

  Well, you're not supposed to graduate at 17.

• 1:25:18Speaker 04

  Well, my birthday's in May.

• 1:25:19Shawn Ryan?

  All right.

• 1:25:20Speaker 04

  So there's that.

• 1:25:24Shawn Ryan?

  So what did your mom do when you, I mean, I'll bet she was ecstatic. She must have known when the manager came in and told you that RCA was gonna sign you.

• 1:25:33Speaker 04

  She called her daddy and told him, and he was like, "Well, you ought to be a nurse. You know, you ought to keep your day job." That didn't go so well. Everybody was terrified for us, I think. Right? We just got a record deal with RCA Records? That's incredible.

• 1:25:56Shawn Ryan?

  I would think people would be happy for you.

• 1:25:58Speaker 04

  Not so much, though. I think, I think on some deep, deep level, Papal Judd knew that mom was a bit of a dreamer. And it was that whole thing of, "You ought to really think about this nursing thing." Have something to fall back on. You know the deal.

• 1:26:16Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-huh.

• 1:26:17Speaker 04

  Right?

• 1:26:17Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-huh.

• 1:26:19Speaker 04

  And of course, you know, college wasn't even an option for me.

• 1:26:24Speaker 04

  Not, not so much.

• 1:26:28Speaker 04

  So we were elated.

• 1:26:33Speaker 04

  It was glorious. Probably one of the happiest moments of my life at that point, right? Because I'm thinking, I finally, finally made it. And she's finally gonna be proud of me.

• 1:26:50Shawn Ryan?

  Was she?

• 1:26:52Speaker 04

  I think so, Sean, but I think also Mom was terrified for me.

• 1:26:57Shawn Ryan?

  Why's that?

• 1:26:58Speaker 04

  Because I was such a dreamer and I'm, I've always said this and it's the only political statement I think I've ever made. It's been in the press about Mom being right and Ashley being left and I'm Pentecostal. I remember saying that in an interview once. And I'm just so different than both of them. And I think Mom was terrified for me. Because I'm so emotional. I was told my whole life I'm too much. When you're that emotional, right? And everything comes from the heart. And I think she was really genuinely nervous for me.

• 1:27:39Speaker 04

  Because I wasn't as ambitious and I wasn't as disciplined and all I wanted to do was play music. That's all I cared about. I didn't care about anything else. I didn't care about the fame part. I just didn't. Mom did. It was incredibly important to her.

• 1:27:59Shawn Ryan?

  How do you know that?

• 1:28:01Speaker 04

  Because I watched her. I did her hair every night. And I saw how she worked on her wave and she always had her script ready to go if we win an award. Me, not so much. Used to drive her crazy. We go to Donahue. She has three wardrobe fittings and I show up in a bowling shirt and end up wearing our assistants' clothes to do the show. Donahue was as popular as Oprah at the time. And she was mortified. We fought a lot about clothing.

• 1:28:44Speaker 04

  She just wanted to be famous. She really did. It was important to her. God love her. And that's what mattered. That's what mattered. Me, I just wanted to rock. That's all I cared about.

• 1:29:07Shawn Ryan?

  So what happened after, you know, in the days, weeks, months after you signed the RCA deal? I mean, it turned into 20 top tens, 14 number ones, five Grammys, nine CMAs, seven ACMs. And all by 1991. It's pretty fast.

• 1:29:29Speaker 04

  First time I was ever on stage was in front of 10,000 people.

• 1:29:33Shawn Ryan?

  Jeez.

• 1:29:34Speaker 04

  That's crazy, right?

• 1:29:37Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:39Speaker 04

  And I remember saying, I want to go home. And she said, I'll never forget it. Shut up and sing. And up goes the curtain. And there we go. And from there, it was opening for George Strait and we ended up in Vegas opening for Merle Haggard. Like one of our first jobs. Now, that was talk about irony. It was just from there, it was over, you know, people say, well, you made it so fast. It wasn't over nine. I said, no, it was over coffee break.

• 1:30:20Speaker 04

  We made it from Welfare to Millionaire. So, yeah. It was crazy. Crazy how fast we made it.

• 1:30:38Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, what are you thinking from going in what sounds like dirt floor Kentucky, checking trout lines at four years old?

• 1:30:51Speaker 04

  I wasn't quite four, but I was close. But you're right, going from the dirt to working for the Queen. I am on my way pretty fast.

• 1:31:03Shawn Ryan?

  But that's crazy.

• 1:31:04Speaker 04

  It's, no, it's insane. If you want to really ruin somebody's life, let them win the lottery at 17. Literally. And I never felt like I made it. I didn't earn it. I mean, I felt like it was handed to me. And so I did everything I could to blow it. I didn't know how to deal with money. I got three accountants. I didn't know how to do anything. I barely knew how to dress myself to match Mother. Let alone do a set list, figure out what we're gonna say on stage. Mom had all that worked out.

• 1:31:48Speaker 04

  I just knew how to play guitar and sing. That's all. If you look at the early, you know, tapes of me, VHS, I just pretty much looked like a deer in the headlights all the time. They sent me to media school. They said, you need help knowing how to do interviews. I didn't know how to sit still like I am now. I didn't know how to not roll my eyes when Mom talked. Because she developed this speaking voice that was very entertaining.

• 1:32:22Shawn Ryan?

  You could see a switch.

• 1:32:23Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah, I could. And she was always such a character when she told stories. And she embellished and loved to tell a good tale. And so they said, you have to stop rolling your eyes. Why not? This is not gonna work. So they sent me to media school and I learned how to sit still. For the most part. But I was 17. So they sent us on a year-long tour of radio stations back before technology and cell phones and internet. We would go to three and five a day and shake and howdy and say, play our record. And we'd sing live on the radio. Did that for a year.

• 1:33:08Speaker 04

  Just to teach me how to, you know, be successful. How to earn my way. Crazy.

• 1:33:17Shawn Ryan?

  Did you have anybody to trust? Nobody.

• 1:33:24Speaker 04

  Not our manager. To this day, I think about Ken Stiltz, our first manager, and I can't believe it. He was just a businessman. One of 13 children trying to make it. And he was our manager. But anybody could have been our manager. Guy that owned a, you know, Carr could have been our manager. Because we were on our way. It was just that magical. Anybody who ran a business could have been our manager. It was that amazing.

• 1:34:04Speaker 04

  Really amazing. And nightmarish. I'm 17 and I don't even know how to live on my own.

• 1:34:26Shawn Ryan?

  Are you living on your own at this? I mean, you've pretty much been living on your own your entire life up to this point.

• 1:34:31Speaker 04

  Okay, that's a good point.

• 1:34:32Shawn Ryan?

  But...

• 1:34:34Speaker 04

  I mean, I don't know how to work credit. Not really. And I'm gonna be famous? Yeah, okay, let's do that. Nuts. It's nuts what we did. It's the American dream. But at what cost?

• 1:34:58Shawn Ryan?

  Did you miss the simplicity?

• 1:34:59Speaker 04

  Yes. I missed my Mamaw and I missed my Aunt Pauline. I spent summers in Aunt Pauline's. She had no running water. She cooked on a woodburn stove and I patterned my farm after Aunt Pauline. Because she had, you know, the 40 animals and lived off the land. They had an outhouse. I don't have an outhouse. But I missed family, friends, boyfriend. I had a boyfriend at 18 that was my first love. And he broke up with me when my song went number one.

• 1:35:41Speaker 04

  Because it was like, you're too famous. Bye. So I did. I missed out on a lot of stuff that college kids get to go through. But I was opening for Merle Haggard in Caesar's Palace in Vegas.

• 1:35:58Shawn Ryan?

  Jeez.

• 1:36:00Speaker 04

  Crazy. So who wouldn't want to do that, right? But I'm not sure, I'm not even sure what day it is. It's so hectic. But we did it. We were at one time supporting 40 families.

• 1:36:22Shawn Ryan?

  What do you mean by that, supporting 40 families?

• 1:36:25Speaker 04

  Our payroll. 40 families. Depended on us and from band and crew and just everybody. 40 people on the payroll. And that's in the beginning. So go figure.

• 1:36:53Shawn Ryan?

  That is a...

• 1:37:01Shawn Ryan?

  Wild change in lifestyle at such a rapid pace.

• 1:37:04Speaker 04

  Oh my goodness, you're right.

• 1:37:10Speaker 04

  I think about it sometimes. I'll lay in bed and just kinda go over a few of these details and think to myself, "How did I make it through all that?"

• 1:37:20Speaker 04

  Honestly, like, I know people think money makes you happy, but it doesn't. It gives you choices.

• 1:37:31Speaker 04

  And I was such a people pleaser and so into making sure mom was happy with me. That was my barometer. If I was number one on the charts, it didn't matter if mom was pissed at me.

• 1:37:47Speaker 04

  Making sure she was happy with me, making sure that I didn't what I was supposed to do. That's all I cared about. The rest of it was out of my hands. We had people for that.

• 1:38:00Speaker 04

  Right? So...

• 1:38:04Speaker 04

  You're right, though. It was a... I went from... The very first thing I did was buy land, though I'm really proud to say that I bought 500 acres out in Leapers Fork. And that was one of the first things I did was buy land. And to this day, it's the best decision I ever made. So thank God I did that.

• 1:38:25Shawn Ryan?

  You did that around age 17?

• 1:38:27Speaker 04

  No, I did it in 1990 when I was...

• 1:38:32Speaker 04

  Can't remember how old I was. But I bought a house when I was 20-something. And that was my investment. And lived there for, what, five years, eight years, something like that. It gets a little muddy around that area.

• 1:38:49Shawn Ryan?

  Why do you say that?

• 1:38:50Speaker 04

  Because there was just so much...

• 1:38:52Shawn Ryan?

  It was just going so fast?

• 1:38:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's a little scary. I have to ask my assistant for dates. Because I was so busy and so living in the fast lane.

• 1:39:06Shawn Ryan?

  What was your... I mean...

• 1:39:10Shawn Ryan?

  I'm just curious. What was your relationship with your mom like offstage back then?

• 1:39:16Speaker 04

  She was very strict.

• 1:39:18Shawn Ryan?

  Strict as in how?

• 1:39:19Speaker 04

  Very hard on me, like military. Very military. She was managing a rock star with a lot of

• 1:39:33Speaker 04

  verbal abuse and unfortunately, a lot of criticism. Like, "It needs to be better. It needs to be..." It was never good enough. Uh, seldom good enough.

• 1:39:47Speaker 04

  Except for when I would sing.

• 1:39:52Speaker 04

  The rest of it was, you know, "You're not as smart as Ashley," or "You're not as good at this as Ashley," or "You need to try that again. You need to be better. You need to be on time. You need to be this. You need to be that. You need to make sure you always match my clothes." Just strict. Really strict about me. And I was, uh...

• 1:40:18Shawn Ryan?

  So she wouldn't actually help you? She would just criticize you?

• 1:40:21Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm. I had people for that, right? So she was, uh...

• 1:40:28Shawn Ryan?

  So she's expecting you to manage your people?

• 1:40:31Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:40:32Shawn Ryan?

  So you had different people? She had her people, you had your people. Who got you these people? Where did they come from?

• 1:40:41Speaker 04

  My manager was a lot of it.

• 1:40:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, my manager.

• 1:40:52Speaker 04

  But I remember having, for instance, a house and not knowing how to even deal with a mortgage, because I don't know what a mortgage is.

• 1:41:08Speaker 04

  I didn't know what a mortgage was.

• 1:41:10Shawn Ryan?

  Where did your mom live?

• 1:41:11Speaker 04

  She... We always lived separate, so we had our own places. She lived, what, 45 minutes from me?

• 1:41:21Speaker 04

  I pretty much got left alone at that point for sure. I was on my own.

• 1:41:28Shawn Ryan?

  What was Ashley doing at the time?

• 1:41:31Speaker 04

  Well, by the time we made it, she was making it. So Ashley and I separated at 14 and 18. Actually, 17 and 13. And we were apart a lot, more than we were ever together. And she went and lived with different people. And Michael, her dad, she lived with Nana Judd.

• 1:41:56Speaker 04

  And she went to college.

• 1:41:59Speaker 04

  She's written her own book, so you have to look at her book to see some of those dates, because I can't remember. I was too absorbed in the music business.

• 1:42:08Shawn Ryan?

  Did you miss her?

• 1:42:09Speaker 04

  I did. I did. It was tragic, being separated like that.

• 1:42:16Shawn Ryan?

  Did you guys keep in touch?

• 1:42:17Speaker 04

  Yes, very much so. Very much so. And I missed her terribly. I felt a lot of guilt for leaving her. That was definitely a hard, solid, you know, goodbye for a long period of time. Six months at a time kind of thing. It was really tough for me, because I felt so responsible for her.

• 1:42:46Speaker 04

  But that's showbiz, baby.

• 1:42:54Shawn Ryan?

  Is there anything you would have done different?

• 1:42:59Speaker 04

  No, because I wanted to sing. I wanted to sing. That's all I cared about. The rest was BS, but I wanted to sing. And that's all that mattered to me.

• 1:43:10Shawn Ryan?

  How fast after you got the RCA deal did you have number one, your first number one?

• 1:43:15Speaker 04

  Good question. You'll have to look it up. Look on Google.

• 1:43:20Shawn Ryan?

  What did it feel like?

• 1:43:21Speaker 04

  OMG, it was glorious. I was in heaven. Heaven on earth, my dear. It was... It was even better than I thought. I didn't know we were gonna make it as big as we did. I really didn't. I knew we were gonna make it. I just didn't know on what level. But we were crushing it. Winning awards, touring, opening for the best artists there are. The 80s were so great. 80s and 90s were fabulous.

• 1:43:57Shawn Ryan?

  What do you mean, "opening for the best artists"? You were the best artists.

• 1:44:01Speaker 04

  But we only had like eight songs.

• 1:44:03Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, yeah, but, I mean, geez, and...

• 1:44:07Speaker 04

  But I'm talking about like George Strait.

• 1:44:09Shawn Ryan?

  20 top 10s, 14 number ones, five Grammys, nine CMAs, seven ACMs.

• 1:44:15Speaker 04

  Right. We were it, though. You're right. We were it. But we didn't have a lot of songs, because we were new. Does that make sense?

• 1:44:25Shawn Ryan?

  It does.

• 1:44:26Speaker 04

  And women weren't as popular as closers as men were back then. It was very unusual to have a man opening for a woman. So that was also at play.

• 1:44:41Shawn Ryan?

  Who did you like opening for?

• 1:44:43Speaker 04

  Ah, George Strait. Hands down. Greatest artist of all time.

• 1:44:50Speaker 04

  To this day, he's the king. They call him the king.

• 1:44:53Shawn Ryan?

  What was he like?

• 1:44:54Speaker 04

  Excellent. Absolutely excellent. He's still one of my favorite people on the planet. And getting to play for that many people in arenas, you know, you're talking 25, 30,000 people.

• 1:45:08Shawn Ryan?

  Jeez.

• 1:45:10Speaker 04

  That was big back then, especially back then. Nowadays, they're doing stadiums, but back then, an arena was like, it doesn't get any better than this.

• 1:45:22Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, when you started getting... When this started happening to you, did you have anybody take you under their wing? Anybody that you looked up to?

• 1:45:29Speaker 04

  Uh-uh, not really. Well, Loretta Lynn, Dolly Parton, and Tammy Wynette were my three go-tos.

• 1:45:39Speaker 04

  Pretty great.

• 1:45:40Shawn Ryan?

  Dolly Parton?

• 1:45:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:45:42Shawn Ryan?

  You would interact with her?

• 1:45:43Speaker 04

  She was really good to me. I didn't know. I wasn't allowed to be out much away from mom. She kept close tabs on me. Uh, but I got advice and would ask questions. I had a great group of people around me that I thought, and unfortunately, not so much. But at the time, I had Ken had kinda his whole family working for us.

• 1:46:13Shawn Ryan?

  Hmm.

• 1:46:14Speaker 04

  Hmm. Interesting.

• 1:46:17Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:20Speaker 04

  Right? So I didn't have really anybody. I had... I think I had a lawyer. Yeah, I did. I had a lawyer. That was good. But I didn't even know what questions to ask.

• 1:46:34Speaker 04

  So I wasn't really sure. And being 18, I was so clueless, Sean. I was such a dreamer. I had no concept of how to talk about percentages or... None of that. None of that. So it's a miracle we made it past a certain point.

• 1:46:59Speaker 04

  Really is. You hear about all the nightmares. We had some ourselves. Just being hired for cheaper than we were...

• 1:47:12Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:47:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:47:16Shawn Ryan?

  And so Loretta Lynn, Dolly Parton, and who, sorry, who was the...

• 1:47:21Speaker 04

  Tammy Wynette gave me advice about how to be a woman in this business. Enough to where they were trying to help me. But again, I didn't really have too many people to talk to. And I was too busy trying to make it.

• 1:47:38Shawn Ryan?

  And they were too.

• 1:47:38Speaker 04

  Trying to keep up with mom was... I still have a lot of trauma about wardrobe fittings.

• 1:47:49Speaker 04

  To this day, when I go to wardrobe fittings, thank God I have Tiffany. Because I have her to be patient with me. Because I just have a hard time sitting still or standing still. And I mean, just the hair, the makeup. Look, look at our record, you know, covers and we still call them LPs. Cassettes were out and we were, you know, selling better than anybody and traveling on a bus. Oh, another thing, sharing a bus with your mother. I don't recommend it. Um, that was a whole nother level of what am I doing? But I did, she talked me into a lot.

• 1:48:34Speaker 04

  Why didn't I get my own bus? That's a really good question, right? But I shared a bus with her because I didn't...

• 1:48:42Shawn Ryan?

  Probably went to a family member or your manager.

• 1:48:44Speaker 04

  Right. I wish now I had my own bus. But I was so green and so naive. Oh, so naive. I think about it today and just go, how, thank you, Lord, for protecting me. Thank you, Lord, for protecting me. Really, honestly, could have been so much worse.

• 1:49:11Shawn Ryan?

  Dolly Parton just passed a few weeks ago. Do you remember any specific advice that she told you or any, any stories that stick out in your mind?

• 1:49:22Speaker 04

  Well, stories, uh, when mom died, she called my voicemail and left a beautiful message. And came and showed up for me at her memorial. And we shared a dressing room and I saw the tattoo. A tattoo, not the. And people love it when I say that. And she looked right into my eyes and she said, I love you very much. And I said, I love you too, Dolly. And then she went out and spoke very eloquently. And sang, I will always love you, right next to me, holding my hand. But she showed up for me and you never forget who's there, right? And it was pretty special. Not just because she was the star.

• 1:50:07Speaker 04

  I've known Dolly since I was 17, so I've known her my whole career. But for her to show up like that without even asking, you know, was pretty awesome. Same thing with Loretta. I used to go visit Loretta and sit and talk to her. Last time I saw her, she gave me the shirt off her back, mailed it to my house. And Tammy used to cook for me on her bus. That was pretty great. So I had some really great elders in the business, right? That really loved me. And saw me as so young that bless her heart.

• 1:50:49Speaker 04

  They had to know that I was in for quite a ride.

• 1:50:54Shawn Ryan?

  Who do you see today that reminds you of you?

• 1:51:00Speaker 04

  That's a great question. I would say Laney Wilson, just because she is so young at heart. Um, and she seems very carefree to me. She's probably the closest thing I can think of, anyway. But nowadays, there are so many more choices than we had.

• 1:51:22Shawn Ryan?

  What do you mean by that?

• 1:51:23Speaker 04

  Well, saying no. I don't ever remember saying no.

• 1:51:28Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think they know it's okay to say no?

• 1:51:30Speaker 04

  I think Laney is much more advanced than I was. I didn't know no was a complete sentence. Right? So I was like, gotta get it done, gotta say yes, gotta say yes, gotta people please, gotta get them, you know, wanting more, gotta take that gig, make hay while the sun shines.

• 1:51:53Shawn Ryan?

  When did you learn no was a complete sentence? When did you learn it was okay to turn it down? Last year?

• 1:52:00Speaker 04

  Probably. No, seriously, it's taken me 60 years, probably when I turned 60. I'll be 63 in May, probably 60. When I got my granddaughter and started to raise her. I had to teach her by example. No is a complete sentence. I'm a people pleaser perfectionist. That's another thing. I've been healing from perfectionism as long as I can remember. I know you know that one well. Right?

• 1:52:36Shawn Ryan?

  It's a rough way to live.

• 1:52:38Speaker 04

  It is a rough way to live. That I know for a fact.

• 1:52:45Shawn Ryan?

  But it also makes you the best at what you do.

• 1:52:48Speaker 04

  There's that and I'm grateful for that. But you're right, there's one, in one of the songs, I say, "Everything is not okay, I'm okay with everything. If you'll just let me do my thing, you know, um, I'll get on just fine." But there's a cost to what fine brings.

• 1:53:16Shawn Ryan?

  It's a damn good point.

• 1:53:27Shawn Ryan?

  Did you ever interact with Johnny Cash?

• 1:53:29Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:53:30Shawn Ryan?

  How was that?

• 1:53:30Speaker 04

  He was very dear to me.

• 1:53:32Shawn Ryan?

  He was?

• 1:53:33Speaker 04

  Uh, he was the, he's the king. He's the real, true king. He was very great with me and very patient and hugged me every time I saw him. He and June were always together. I never remember them being apart. And I thought he was the greatest artist of all time. Just sitting next to him was... Talk about charisma? Oh my God, they don't make them like that anymore. They just don't. He was the man.

• 1:54:10Shawn Ryan?

  Do you remember the first time you met him?

• 1:54:12Speaker 04

  Probably in an award show. I don't remember the first time. I don't. But CMA was always, you know, brought everybody together. So it was probably at an award show.

• 1:54:25Shawn Ryan?

  Any good stories?

• 1:54:27Speaker 04

  Uh-uh. I was kept very sheltered, very sheltered by my manager and my mom. I don't have any great...

• 1:54:37Shawn Ryan?

  Why? So they would not let you interact with all these people?

• 1:54:40Speaker 04

  Uh-uh. Uh, I think they were afraid I was gonna become unraveled.

• 1:54:46Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think your mom was scared that you were gonna leave her and go off on your own?

• 1:54:51Speaker 04

  I do.

• 1:54:52Shawn Ryan?

  When did you get the first sense of that?

• 1:54:55Speaker 04

  When I was three.

• 1:54:57Shawn Ryan?

  When you were three?

• 1:54:57Speaker 04

  I don't know. Probably when I was young, probably when I was a teenager, when I got... When I got a record deal, she made sure that we shared a room. A hotel room. Always shared a hotel room. Now, think about that for a minute. I'm 18. And it's not just to save money. It's to keep an eye on me. I think she was afraid I was gonna get pregnant like she did. I'm sure she worried about all that as a mom. But as an artist, I think she was genuinely scared to death for me.

• 1:55:40Speaker 04

  Maybe it was her way of protecting me, I don't know.

• 1:55:43Shawn Ryan?

  You think it was protecting you or protecting herself?

• 1:55:45Speaker 04

  I think both. I think both. I was very naive, like I said, and she was probably really scared. On some level, she knew that there was a lot of temptation out there. So she wanted to keep me straight.

• 1:56:03Shawn Ryan?

  Were you falling for any of the temptation?

• 1:56:07Speaker 04

  Hmm, no, because I had been molested at 12. I was very, if you look at all the clothes, I'm Amish. Like everything's up to here and down to here and I was very modest and very shy. So that wasn't an issue. Drugs and alcohol were not an issue. And I didn't care about boys, not really, because ew, they were in my way. I wanted to rock. Give me a band, give me my own bus and let me rock. I wanted to be Joni Mitchell, Bonnie Raitt. I wanted to be that. That was my dream. And country music was great for me because I could still be that.

• 1:56:51Speaker 04

  But it was definitely under a different package, label. Because we were a duo. I wasn't a solo artist. I don't think I would have made it, though, if it was just me.

• 1:57:01Shawn Ryan?

  You don't think you would have made it?

• 1:57:03Speaker 04

  No, I don't think I had the ambition. I don't think I had the ambition, but maybe I did. I had a great work ethic.

• 1:57:11Shawn Ryan?

  I bet, I think it's pretty obvious that you did.

• 1:57:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, like the military, I saw it as a show up and be the best. I mean, we, you know, did the Super Bowl, we did the World Series, we did all these things. And made it. So I, I was good at that to a certain degree. But managing my personal life, not so much.

• 1:57:35Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, what, I mean, what are you thinking? The Super Bowl, the World Series, the Grammys, the number one hits, like, is that even, and it's going so fast?

• 1:57:44Speaker 04

  No, I don't think I could handle it.

• 1:57:46Shawn Ryan?

  Registering? Did you think it was a fluke? Did it even...

• 1:57:51Speaker 04

  A little bit. In the beginning, I think I did, Sean. I think I was a little bit like, well, this is gonna be fun while it lasts. Sure, I was 18, think about it. It's like college, you think you're gonna be in college for a long time, but not so much the music business because it moves so fast. Moves so incredibly fast. And I was so out of my element. I mean, first time ever on stage, 10,000 people. That's kind of odd. Usually people start out in a bar and, you know, there's time. We didn't take much time to go straight to the top.

• 1:58:37Speaker 04

  So there's that.

• 1:58:44Shawn Ryan?

  Let's take a break.

• 1:58:46Speaker 04

  Let's take a break.

• 1:58:50Shawn Ryan?

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• 2:00:05Shawn Ryan?

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• 2:01:08Shawn Ryan?

  So on the break, I was talking to your team, your husband, out there, and they...

• 2:01:16Shawn Ryan?

  I think you're being a little humble. Maybe it hasn't registered, but it sounds like a lot of these people opened for you guys back in the day.

• 2:01:26Speaker 04

  I'm being humble?

• 2:01:27Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:28Speaker 04

  But that's my memory. Okay, gotcha. So what were they saying?

• 2:01:32Shawn Ryan?

  They said entire careers have been built off opening for the Judds.

• 2:01:36Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 2:01:37Shawn Ryan?

  So if you're not gonna throw it in there, then I'll throw it in there.

• 2:01:40Speaker 04

  Dang, okay.

• 2:01:42Shawn Ryan?

  Dang.

• 2:01:43Speaker 04

  Dang.

• 2:01:46Shawn Ryan?

  So was it 1990, 1991? Yeah. 1991, December 4th, your farewell tour ends. Why were you guys on a farewell tour already?

• 2:02:02Speaker 04

  Because my mother needed to say goodbye to the fans.

• 2:02:07Shawn Ryan?

  To the fans?

• 2:02:09Speaker 04

  It was really important to her. It was her... It became her light therapy, her chemo. And it was her chance to do the wave "bye" and love people. And I think it literally prolonged her lifespan by three to five years. I think it gave her an incredible shot in the arm every night to be able to stand there and say goodbye.

• 2:02:34Shawn Ryan?

  Why was she saying goodbye, though?

• 2:02:37Speaker 04

  Well, because she was so sick, and she got Hep C, and she was so sick. Like, almost carried her to the stage sick. And yet, she got on that stage and twirled like she wasn't, and it was glorious. Of course, I was like, what are we doing? Why is this happening? Why do we have to do this in the first place? I don't want to say goodbye every day. You know what I mean? Because I was getting ready to come out on my own, and I was going through my transition.

• 2:03:10Shawn Ryan?

  You knew you were gonna come out on your own?

• 2:03:12Speaker 04

  Well, there had been discussions about it, and I was in denial that it was even happening. There were, what, six stages of grief? I was still stuck in the denial part. I thought it would go on, and we even talked about adding shows and making it, you know, prolonging it longer than initially discussed.

• 2:03:35Shawn Ryan?

  Where were the discussions happening?

• 2:03:38Speaker 04

  In meetings, in hotel rooms. She would be in bed, and we would all gather around her and talk about it, like you talk about, you know, having surgery. It was almost like... She was so sick, though, that's the thing. I remember doing her hair, getting her dressed. We'd get a golf cart to take her from the bus to the stage. And she wanted to keep going. I think it was part of that whole thing of, I just don't want it to end. And it kept getting pushed and pushed and pushed.

• 2:04:10Shawn Ryan?

  So she was aware that you were gonna go off on to your own?

• 2:04:14Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 2:04:17Shawn Ryan?

  Was she happy about that?

• 2:04:18Speaker 04

  No.

• 2:04:19Shawn Ryan?

  Why?

• 2:04:20Speaker 04

  Because she didn't want me to leave her. It was very painful.

• 2:04:24Shawn Ryan?

  But she couldn't go on?

• 2:04:25Speaker 04

  Correct. She just couldn't... She couldn't physically do it. She could here, but it didn't work that way with her body.

• 2:04:35Shawn Ryan?

  Was she happy for you?

• 2:04:36Speaker 04

  Yes. Yes and no. I think it was painful for her because she would come by the studio and sit there and listen to me sing, and she would cry. And I think that part was, ugh, it was agonizing for her to sit there and listen to me sing a new track on a new record. I mean, it's gotta be strange for her, seeing me go on without her.

• 2:05:04Shawn Ryan?

  And Ashley's actress career had started prior to this, too?

• 2:05:10Speaker 04

  Yes. She had been doing great movies.

• 2:05:12Shawn Ryan?

  So were you guys able to... I mean, were you guys able to relate to each other about what was happening? I mean, her career as an actress has taken off, your career as a musician's taking off. It's all new to you. You both came from the same place.

• 2:05:28Speaker 04

  But not really. I think we were so separated. Ashley was doing her thing in Hollywood, Holly weird, and I was doing my thing, and we were very, you know, apart. So we would see each other at events and try to discuss it, but it was so obvious that Mom wasn't able to continue.

• 2:05:52Speaker 04

  And it was like, you know, the elephant in the room kind of thing.

• 2:05:55Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I'm not talking about your mom anymore. I'm talking about...

• 2:05:58Speaker 04

  Oh, okay.

• 2:05:59Shawn Ryan?

  I'm talking about, you know, right before the break, we were talking about...

• 2:06:04Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 2:06:05Shawn Ryan?

  Dealing with... With everything that's happening. The fame, the record deal, the money, the managers, the people around you.

• 2:06:16Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 2:06:16Shawn Ryan?

  And how to handle that at a young... such a young age, 17 years old to, whatever, whatever, 27 we're at now, 27, 28 years old.

• 2:06:26Speaker 04

  That's all?

• 2:06:28Shawn Ryan?

  And so, you know, that's when I was asking, if you two, and her career started early, too.

• 2:06:33Speaker 04

  Got you.

• 2:06:34Shawn Ryan?

  So were you guys able to relate with each other? Did that create any, any type of a bond, you know, with you and your sister?

• 2:06:42Speaker 04

  That's a great question. Yes and no, because we're in such different worlds, yet we both knew that it was coming to the end. Um, Ashley was doing so well. I mean, she was kicking butt, and I was too. So we had that in common. And I remember one time going to one of Ashley's events and her asking me to take a step back because I was like up, all up in her face and, you know, messing with her hair and everything. And she was like, you know, "Take a step back, sister. You're, you're too much."

• 2:07:22Speaker 04

  It was like, "But I'm so proud," you know, and it was all so weird, though. I felt like I was in a movie myself. You know, Ashley's doing so well, I'm doing so well, and Mom's not. And it was just odd. It was an odd time. And we didn't see each other very much. We've been apart so much, that's the thing.

• 2:07:49Speaker 04

  Always doing this adventure, that adventure, traveling, traveling, traveling.

• 2:07:55Shawn Ryan?

  How was it for you leaving your mom? Did you feel a responsibility to?

• 2:08:01Speaker 04

  Oh, my God.

• 2:08:01Shawn Ryan?

  Did you feel like you had a responsibility to take a step back and take care of your mom?

• 2:08:06Speaker 04

  Yes. I, I have a story about being at Harris Teeter in Brentwood, Tennessee, with my shopping cart, buying groceries, and a guy walks up to me and says, "Do you think you can make it without your mother?" And I was so horrified. I looked at him and I left my cart and I went and got in the car and cried like a baby, wondering, is this what everybody's thinking? Because this is such an odd question. Do I think I can make it without my mother? Well, I don't know. I have no idea if I can make it without her. But I'm a sure as hell try. My life depends on it. It's part of my destiny, you know?

• 2:08:49Speaker 04

  To see if I can make it without mom. And yet, there was a part of me that felt guilt for going on without her. Absolutely. Am I gonna still sing the songs? Stuff like that.

• 2:09:07Speaker 04

  So, it was very strange, very surreal.

• 2:09:15Shawn Ryan?

  What was the first thing you did on your own?

• 2:09:18Speaker 04

  Went and got a tattoo and bought a Harley.

• 2:09:22Shawn Ryan?

  You went and got a tattoo and a Harley?

• 2:09:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:09:25Shawn Ryan?

  What's the tattoo of?

• 2:09:26Speaker 04

  It's a cross. And then I got mom put here with wings and she wouldn't speak to me for two weeks. So I went and got it removed.

• 2:09:38Speaker 04

  And then, I probably bought something, I don't know. Other than that, I just made a record and made history.

• 2:09:49Shawn Ryan?

  Well, that's what I meant.

• 2:09:50Speaker 04

  Right.

• 2:09:50Shawn Ryan?

  Rare, right?

• 2:09:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. I made history with my record. And it was wonderful. And I felt like, oh, my God.

• 2:10:00Speaker 04

  I don't have to worry after all.

• 2:10:02Shawn Ryan?

  Did you, I mean, before, before we get into the success of your solo career, did you, did you, did you know you were gonna make it? Did you have a lot of self doubt?

• 2:10:12Speaker 04

  I had total self doubt. I was probably the most insecure person walking around in my family. Because the Judds were so powerful together. We made so many choices that were about the two of us. And now, all of a sudden, it's just me. I felt like the glass was half empty, for sure. Again, mother was the brains of the operation and I was the voice in terms of the way the records were made and yada, yada, yada. And she made me realize just how much I needed her and depended on her.

• 2:10:56Speaker 04

  I literally don't know that I made decisions on my own for years. It was always a collective thing, you know, partnership. And I don't ever remember going in and saying, this is the way it's gonna be. That never existed. So for me to go all of a sudden into this solo way of thinking and doing was as foreign to me as anything in my life.

• 2:11:25Shawn Ryan?

  What was your first record solo?

• 2:11:27Speaker 04

  She is his only need. You talking about the title of the record or the single?

• 2:11:34Shawn Ryan?

  The record.

• 2:11:35Speaker 04

  The record was just self titled. And it was, I think it sold five million. Back then, that was huge. Nowadays, it's a sneeze.

• 2:11:49Shawn Ryan?

  Solo debut enters at number one, sells five million plus copies, recorded, first three singles but all hit number one.

• 2:11:58Speaker 04

  Right. I was flying.

• 2:12:01Shawn Ryan?

  Right off of that.

• 2:12:02Speaker 04

  I was flying.

• 2:12:04Shawn Ryan?

  Did that register?

• 2:12:05Speaker 04

  It did.

• 2:12:06Shawn Ryan?

  That gave you the confidence that you needed?

• 2:12:08Speaker 04

  It did. It didn't give me the confidence. I wasn't quite there yet. Because I kept going back to mom and getting her approval. I was pretty codependent to the point of like self sabotage, I'm sure. I just, you have to remember something. I mean, from the time I can remember, it was mom and me. And the two of us, you know, she had separated from Michael enough to where it was just the two of us. And I can't ever remember it not being the two of us. And so, for me, I wasn't ready to let go yet. She was my queen. And it's like, you know, the kid who lives in the basement.

• 2:12:53Speaker 04

  I was that kid.

• 2:12:55Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, so interesting that you're saying that. At the beginning of the interview, if you, if you, if you would've asked me right now, at the beginning of, from the beginning of the interview, would've said, it was you and Ashley from the very beginning. It was you from the very beginning.

• 2:13:10Speaker 04

  Right.

• 2:13:10Shawn Ryan?

  You were home alone, you were...

• 2:13:12Speaker 04

  Now, that part's true. But I'm talking about from a spiritual, emotional standpoint. Mom had a way of making me feel like she knew me better than I knew myself.

• 2:13:30Speaker 04

  Don't know how she did it, but she did it. I would even ask her about boys, you know, do you like this guy? And if she didn't like him, I would almost break up with him. I was so codependent to the point where I don't know that I bought a car without her approval.

• 2:13:46Shawn Ryan?

  Holy shit.

• 2:13:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:13:50Shawn Ryan?

  That's a lot of control.

• 2:13:51Speaker 04

  I know that. I know that now. I wanted her approval so desperately. It was important to me on some deep level of, okay, I'm okay, I'm good, I'm good. She thinks I'm good, I can do this. I think, too, she would always be hard on me in terms of, okay, so you sold five million records of this record, you're gonna have to sell 10 the next time. You know what I mean? It was always push.

• 2:14:27Shawn Ryan?

  She would say that.

• 2:14:28Speaker 04

  Push, push, push, yeah. So it was like, okay, what's next?

• 2:14:35Shawn Ryan?

  So in retrospect now, I mean, actually, how would you feel when she would say that? I mean, you just...

• 2:14:44Speaker 04

  So much pressure. Oh, my God, so much pressure.

• 2:14:48Shawn Ryan?

  Did that anger you?

• 2:14:49Speaker 04

  Yes. Because it was never enough. It was never enough. It was what's the next thing? Some people live their whole lives, as you know. Well, that was great, now what? It was always that way in the music business. So what if I sold five million? I've gotta sell six million next time, or 10. That's the way it works, unfortunately.

• 2:15:17Shawn Ryan?

  Why do you think?

• 2:15:23Shawn Ryan?

  What was her motivation for doing that?

• 2:15:27Speaker 04

  That is a great question. I don't know the answer to it.

• 2:15:29Shawn Ryan?

  Was it to make you feel insignificant? Was it an undertone of maybe jealousy? That you had sold five hun, five million records without her? That you had three number one singles? That you, nobody had ever sold five million plus records?

• 2:15:50Speaker 04

  I think...

• 2:15:50Shawn Ryan?

  Or was it...

• 2:15:51Speaker 04

  She never wanted me to forget where I came from. I think, too, she wanted me to know that my life began with the Judds and not to forget that, not to let the songs go, for instance. And if I did the songs, I had to do them like the 80s records. That kind of thing, to honor the past. Maybe she was stuck in the past a little bit. I don't know that I know the answer to that.

• 2:16:22Speaker 04

  I'll do some investigating a little bit on myself to answer that question. But I don't know that she ever truly could give up the Judds.

• 2:16:38Speaker 04

  I think it was that important to her. So maybe on some level, she didn't want it to succeed. She never said it. I never heard those words.

• 2:16:51Shawn Ryan?

  Was that a big driver for you?

• 2:16:53Speaker 04

  What?

• 2:16:54Shawn Ryan?

  The fact that she would say that, next time you gotta sell 10 million?

• 2:16:59Speaker 04

  Yes. It made me work harder and smarter. I worked harder and smarter. I don't ever remember sitting around doing nothing. I was always trying to come up with the next big thing. You can't live that way, though. Right? What a way to live if you're gonna do that. So I was always trying to figure out a way to outdo the last thing. A bigger, better, faster, more. We're all that way a little bit, aren't we?

• 2:17:36Shawn Ryan?

  I am that way.

• 2:17:38Speaker 04

  Yeah. I think I am, too.

• 2:17:43Shawn Ryan?

  Sometimes I wish I wasn't, but...

• 2:17:47Speaker 04

  I think we all are.

• 2:17:48Shawn Ryan?

  It also makes me who I am.

• 2:17:49Speaker 04

  Well, part of being a champion is making your time faster. So what if you break the world record? I've gotta do it faster next time.

• 2:18:02Speaker 04

  Why not?

• 2:18:03Shawn Ryan?

  No time to celebrate the wins.

• 2:18:05Speaker 04

  I don't ever remember having parties for that. I always remember getting on with the next thing. I wasted a lot of time doing that. Not waste, but I spent a lot of time moving on to the next thing and not celebrating the moment. I missed out on that.

• 2:18:27Speaker 04

  So, I regret that.

• 2:18:31Shawn Ryan?

  Well, when you did hit three singles that hit number one, you sold five million records. I mean, how did that?

• 2:18:49Shawn Ryan?

  Because

• 2:18:53Shawn Ryan?

  you realized it was you.

• 2:18:55Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 2:18:57Shawn Ryan?

  And so was that freeing?

• 2:18:59Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 2:19:02Speaker 04

  The challenge was to stay humble and not na na na na na, do that whole thing. The challenge was to stay humble and realize I didn't get as far as I've gotten without her and the past Judd's success.

• 2:19:20Speaker 04

  So I worked really hard at staying true to who I am. And I remember going into therapy sessions going, I'm really proud of myself, but yet I realized that I wouldn't be here without my mother. So it was a whole mind game at times. I had to really work hard at staying centered.

• 2:19:44Speaker 04

  Because I wanted to party and have fun and celebrate my success, but it was like, yeah, but yeah, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for all that.

• 2:19:57Speaker 04

  So don't forget where you come from.

• 2:20:01Speaker 04

  Don't forget.

• 2:20:04Speaker 04

  So it was really important to her that I did that.

• 2:20:08Speaker 04

  Really important to her.

• 2:20:10Shawn Ryan?

  And you got pregnant with your first son?

• 2:20:12Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 2:20:14Shawn Ryan?

  Right around this timeframe?

• 2:20:16Speaker 04

  I sure did. It was all the tabloids.

• 2:20:21Speaker 04

  Unwed mother.

• 2:20:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was, it was intense for sure.

• 2:20:28Speaker 04

  I think the tabloids loved me as much as they loved Oprah. I think we would even have conversations at times about how much we were in the tabloids and she would beat me by two or three articles. Otherwise, we were pretty much neck and neck. I was in pretty much every week.

• 2:20:47Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 2:20:48Speaker 04

  Yeah. It got heavy there for a minute.

• 2:20:52Shawn Ryan?

  Did you take a break?

• 2:20:54Speaker 04

  Hell, no.

• 2:20:57Speaker 04

  I was right back out there.

• 2:21:01Speaker 04

  Doing what I do, getting more stories. I've got them somewhere and they take up a whole trunkload.

• 2:21:10Speaker 04

  Listen, I was too busy trying to get ahead to sit around and mope. I don't ever remember having a pity party.

• 2:21:20Speaker 04

  I was always going and blowing.

• 2:21:24Speaker 04

  That's what you did. So that was a failure. Let's move on to the next thing. And I was determined to prove to my mother I could make it on my own. Because I hadn't gone to college. I hadn't done some of the things that kids do where they can prove it in my mind personally. So I did it professionally. Does that make sense?

• 2:21:46Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 2:21:46Speaker 04

  My personal life was, I didn't really date. I don't ever remember going, I'm going to make a conscious effort to make my life so good personally. It was all professional. Because that's what mattered to mom too, was

• 2:22:04Speaker 04

  she did that. She sold out that show.

• 2:22:08Speaker 04

  Even if I was a knucklehead in her mind, I could still sell out a show. That was important to me. So that was the currency with which I used getting her approval.

• 2:22:23Shawn Ryan?

  Did having a son change the way you think about the world at all?

• 2:22:27Speaker 04

  Absolutely. It was the most important piece of my life. And I, I didn't know it at first. I mean, I, when I found out about Elijah, I was overjoyed because I always wanted a child. Uh, my mama said that I would talk about having children when I was a little girl. I've always wanted to be a mother. That was one of the things that I was, I gotta do this. I don't know about you as a parent, but I want a child. And when I found out about Elijah, it was so important to me that I bought a Doppler. And hearing that sound every night kept me going. You bought a Doppler, right?

• 2:23:12Shawn Ryan?

  Sure did.

• 2:23:13Speaker 04

  Right? And you hear that sound and it's like, yes.

• 2:23:19Speaker 04

  Yes, I've got this going on for me. And it was huge. I remember it so clearly, laying in bed at night going, oh my God, this is the best thing ever.

• 2:23:33Speaker 04

  And loving every second.

• 2:23:37Speaker 04

  And made everything else worthwhile.

• 2:23:44Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 2:23:46Shawn Ryan?

  Did that change your career at all?

• 2:23:48Speaker 04

  I think it did.

• 2:23:49Shawn Ryan?

  Having a baby?

• 2:23:49Speaker 04

  I think it did. And then I got pregnant again. They're 18 months apart, so I got pregnant right after that. And I think it did. I remember going into a meeting at MCA after my second child was born. And I remember the meeting being one of those, I've got to not prove myself, that's not the right word, but I've got to redeem myself as a worker. And the very first thing, I'll never forget this, walking into a boardroom meeting with all the suits, saying, I'd like to start out this meeting by letting everyone know that I have an IUD.

• 2:24:29Shawn Ryan?

  A what?

• 2:24:30Speaker 04

  You don't know what an IUD is?

• 2:24:32Shawn Ryan?

  I don't.

• 2:24:37Speaker 04

  It's birth control, you knucklehead.

• 2:24:38Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 2:24:42Speaker 04

  And I started the meeting out like that and everybody just looked at me like, and I was like, you guys are all wondering if I'm going to have another baby. So let's just get that out there. And everyone laughed and it became one of those, can you believe she said that? But that's how determined I was to show myself that I, and prove to everybody that I could do it with two children. And I did, but it took a minute because everybody was like, is she going to marry the guy? She's going to become a family person? Is she going to stay home and make, you know, bread? Or is she going to go back out there and rock? So for me, it was, I'm going to go back out there and rock. So I raised them on the road.

• 2:25:23Speaker 04

  I was with them all the time and I made sure that we were one little tight tribe unit. And we did it. It's a miracle. I had two babies on a tour bus and a nanny.

• 2:25:40Speaker 04

  And we did it.

• 2:25:42Shawn Ryan?

  What does that look like? Two babies on a tour bus touring around the US is probably, I mean,

• 2:25:52Shawn Ryan?

  one of the most famous country music artists in the world.

• 2:25:56Speaker 04

  It looks like me in stage clothes with crap on it. Sometimes my hair in a ponytail because I didn't have time to do it uh, any other way. And lots of tears, lots of tears. Because I didn't really have a lot of support uh, from the father. So I was definitely on my own, like, you know, pioneer woman on a Conestoga wagon, rolling across the West, going West, rolling across the country, making a place for us. Every day it was making a place for me and the children so that I could rock and do my thing.

• 2:26:46Shawn Ryan?

  You grew up hard.

• 2:26:47Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 2:26:49Shawn Ryan?

  When you became a mother for the first time, did you think about how you grew up and how you wanted to make sure that never happened to them?

• 2:26:58Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 2:27:00Speaker 04

  Yes. I made time for them.

• 2:27:02Shawn Ryan?

  Think about that?

• 2:27:02Speaker 04

  Hmm?

• 2:27:03Shawn Ryan?

  How much did you think about that?

• 2:27:05Speaker 04

  All the time. It was my number one, actually. I cared more about that than I did the show because I knew I could do the show. I knew that. I had that down. You know, like, okay, I've got that market cornered.

• 2:27:21Speaker 04

  And I need to be the best mother I can be and be present. So I was either with them all day and then I'd go on stage and the nanny would take over and I would be able to get a standing ovation and go, yes, I did this. I did both.

• 2:27:40Speaker 04

  You know what I mean? It was really important to me, Sean, to be the best mother I could be. Because I was distracted by the success and the meet and greets and the, but I remember leaving meet and greets because Grace would be having a meltdown or Elijah would be having a fever and leaving a meet and greet to go, you know, be a mom and check in. I was a really good mom. I was very present and very uh, determined to show them that I loved them and they weren't in my way. I think most of my life I felt in the way, like I was intruding a little bit and I just didn't want them to feel that way. I wanted to break that cycle of hurry up, hurry up, we gotta go, we gotta go, we gotta go. Because my mama always had time for me.

• 2:28:26Speaker 04

  Time is the greatest gift you can give someone. And she never, I don't ever remember her saying hurry up or you're in my way, get out of the way.

• 2:28:36Speaker 04

  The other day I was with Kalia and she goes, Naomi, would you put your phone down and be with me?

• 2:28:46Speaker 04

  I don't ever remember that happening with me. So I wanted both Grace and Elijah to know that they were not in the way.

• 2:28:53Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think that came across?

• 2:28:55Speaker 04

  Not with Grace. Grace was very jealous of my career because it took me away from her enough to where she was not satisfied. I think because she's the second born, I think it was important to her that I even spent more time with her. Because I had that with Elijah for a minute. He was more at peace about it. She was the one that wanted to sleep with me, wanted my attention 24/7. So that was painful. That was hard.

• 2:29:24Speaker 04

  I was really hard on myself about that.

• 2:29:26Shawn Ryan?

  Why did you decide to marry the father?

• 2:29:30Speaker 04

  Pressure.

• 2:29:32Speaker 04

  From the public, as well as my family. And I wanted it so bad that I put on blinders. I was just determined to make it work.

• 2:29:42Shawn Ryan?

  You wanted a family.

• 2:29:43Speaker 04

  I wanted a family. More than anything else in this world. I wanted a family. I knew he wasn't right for me.

• 2:29:50Shawn Ryan?

  How did you help?

• 2:29:51Speaker 04

  I just did. Just the, the whole thing, leading up to both babies being born, I just was... It was really me and the nanny, a lot of the time.

• 2:30:01Shawn Ryan?

  Or was he?

• 2:30:03Speaker 04

  Working, doing his thing. And he didn't love the road, and he didn't come out on the road a lot. And when he did, we would fight about the rules, because on the road, I'm the boss. You know, he would call me Miss Judd, and that would frustrate me.

• 2:30:19Speaker 04

  So...

• 2:30:22Speaker 04

  I just thought, this is the right thing to do to even the score.

• 2:30:27Speaker 04

  Make him feel more a part of the family. Yada, yada, yada. And plus, I felt a lot of pressure to do the right thing.

• 2:30:36Speaker 04

  For religious reasons, sure, I'll go there. But I also wanted it to work. I thought there was a part of me that thought, if you love more, it heals and it works. I really want to give this the best shot it can, can get.

• 2:31:00Speaker 04

  And I had everything.

• 2:31:03Speaker 04

  I had everything. So there's a part of me that thought, I'm not gonna not do this right.

• 2:31:11Speaker 04

  But I did feel pressure, especially from my mom. Do the right thing. You can't get away with this twice. She would say.

• 2:31:22Speaker 04

  I think she's right.

• 2:31:25Speaker 04

  What is that thing, forgive me, something about once, twice, shame on me, kind of thing?

• 2:31:34Speaker 04

  I can't remember.

• 2:31:35Shawn Ryan?

  Was she happy that you had kids?

• 2:31:37Speaker 04

  Yes. I think she was also very mortified that my timing was where, where it was. It wasn't the

• 2:31:46Speaker 04

  right thing to do at the time in terms of... I had so much opportunity. So much opportunity. And I was like, oh, I'm gonna be gone for a minute. No, one, what is it? Two steps forward, three steps back.

• 2:32:04Speaker 04

  I had worked so damn hard at getting where I was. You're gonna lose your place in line. And I did.

• 2:32:13Speaker 04

  I did. I remember it.

• 2:32:18Speaker 04

  Getting knocked out of the spot.

• 2:32:24Speaker 04

  So that's the price you pay when you have kids.

• 2:32:28Speaker 04

  When you run a business, think about it.

• 2:32:35Speaker 04

  I lost my spot. And that's okay, though. I remember cleaning a toilet. And looking up at the TV and seeing Shania Twain with her beautiful figure and her hair blowing in the wind, literally on a video, and going, who is that? And Shania Twain was up and coming. And I remember thinking,

• 2:32:56Speaker 04

  oh crap, literally.

• 2:32:59Speaker 04

  This is what I'm up against in terms of the new generation of up and come, up and comings. And thinking to myself, okay, this is where it changes.

• 2:33:12Speaker 04

  That horse, that outside horse is edging towards the spot of number one.

• 2:33:20Speaker 04

  And I can't run as fast. Literally, because of my staples from the C-section.

• 2:33:30Speaker 04

  And cleaning toilets was not my favorite moment to see that.

• 2:33:40Speaker 04

  It's like one of those, I'll never forget it, ever.

• 2:33:45Speaker 04

  Oh, life is so humbling.

• 2:33:52Shawn Ryan?

  Looking back, would you change anything?

• 2:33:54Speaker 04

  No. No.

• 2:33:57Speaker 04

  I really wouldn't, because all the pain, all the gain was so worth it. It made me tougher. And it made me just tough and tender. I wanted to be smarter, better, more, was great, and all of that. But I wanted to be smarter. And I thought, you know what? This teaches me what I don't want.

• 2:34:21Shawn Ryan?

  And this is right around the time that you also found out that you had a biological father.

• 2:34:28Speaker 04

  That's right. Let's add that to the story. Right. That was during that time.

• 2:34:36Speaker 04

  I was so terrified to even meet him.

• 2:34:43Speaker 04

  What if it's... I've heard enough stories to where it just... So I let it go. Call somebody, do something about it. Don't wait. That's my advice to anyone out there who's, uh... Not picking up the phone, for whatever reason, pride, ego. Do it.

• 2:35:07Speaker 04

  Do it.

• 2:35:10Shawn Ryan?

  What's the name of the song on your new album?

• 2:35:14Speaker 04

  The Girl Who Could Sing.

• 2:35:18Speaker 04

  Was I ever really your daughter, or just a girl who could sing?

• 2:35:24Shawn Ryan?

  Is that the one question you would ask him if he was still here?

• 2:35:27Speaker 04

  Yeah. Absolutely.

• 2:35:32Speaker 04

  Absolutely. And why didn't you come for me? Because I was ready to love you, is in the song.

• 2:35:40Speaker 04

  I was ready to love you, but you were ready to leave, is what it says. So I have some questions, sure. There's a lot of mystery around it still, to this day. So...

• 2:35:58Shawn Ryan?

  How long were you married?

• 2:36:02Speaker 04

  To Arch?

• 2:36:05Speaker 04

  Not long, actually. Two years. I want to say two. It felt like 10.

• 2:36:09Shawn Ryan?

  How did you meet him?

• 2:36:11Speaker 04

  I was in first class on a flight to Nashville, and he was with another woman, coming back from an event. And he asked me, he came and gave me his card and said, I'm putting together a charity ride with Alan Jackson, and I'd love for you to ride your Harley in the event, or in the Harley ride. And I said, sure.

• 2:36:34Speaker 04

  And I went out with him and thought he was independently wealthy and successful, and he didn't need to be Mr. Judd and all that crap. And, uh... It was the exact opposite.

• 2:36:50Speaker 04

  So that was a mistake for me, to think that he was that independent, because he wanted so badly to have children and a family too. And I thought, oh, we have that in common, and it's perfect, and... Not so much.

• 2:37:08Shawn Ryan?

  What ended that?

• 2:37:11Speaker 04

  Betrayal.

• 2:37:14Speaker 04

  And

• 2:37:17Speaker 04

  that was one of those, oh, I should have seen it. Everyone else did. Everyone else did. And I just wouldn't see it. That he wasn't loyal to me in that way. That you need someone to be trustworthy. And, um...

• 2:37:36Speaker 04

  It just wasn't a good experience. I write about it in my book, so I don't want to rehash it too much. But I learned so much from that. I learned so much from that. Quit getting lost in these relationships. Quit giving up yourself for this. Save some for yourself. Work on yourself.

• 2:37:59Speaker 04

  I always was such a people pleaser, Sean, that I just lost me.

• 2:38:05Speaker 04

  And that was one of those experiences.

• 2:38:13Shawn Ryan?

  In 2005, your memoir came out, Coming Home to Myself. Public triumph versus private struggles with money, food, self-worth, and relationships.

• 2:38:27Speaker 04

  Uh, yep.

• 2:38:32Speaker 04

  Yeah. I went through the darkness pretty bad.

• 2:38:37Speaker 04

  As do we all. And it was really sucky.

• 2:38:46Speaker 04

  What do you want to know?

• 2:38:48Shawn Ryan?

  I want to know, you know, with all the success that you had amassed,

• 2:38:57Shawn Ryan?

  all the number ones, all the career with the Judds, I mean, it was just a hockey stick, just

• 2:39:05Speaker 04

  Mmm.

• 2:39:06Shawn Ryan?

  And then there was still a massive emptiness.

• 2:39:12Speaker 04

  Quite an emptiness.

• 2:39:13Shawn Ryan?

  What could have filled that void?

• 2:39:16Speaker 04

  I thought food could help, food and alcohol and money and

• 2:39:25Speaker 04

  everything. I thought everything. I had everything. I was addicted to the word more.

• 2:39:32Speaker 04

  And

• 2:39:36Speaker 04

  if I just had more food and more this and more cars and I started collecting cars for God's sake, old beautiful cars, but still I was like, why do you need another car? What's the point?

• 2:39:54Speaker 04

  Only God can fill that hole. I finally get it. Okay, I get it, God. I get it. Now, I get it. But then I thought it was all this other stuff.

• 2:40:06Speaker 04

  And the number ones and the big parties and even the adoration from the fans, I counted on that more organically, thank God, and authentically. But I still loved a standing ovation. You know, I wasn't satisfied unless I got one.

• 2:40:27Speaker 04

  That's how hard I worked.

• 2:40:28Shawn Ryan?

  You became addicted to the fame.

• 2:40:31Speaker 04

  No, not the fame. I, the

• 2:40:35Shawn Ryan?

  The praise.

• 2:40:36Speaker 04

  The praise. And, and the, she is such a nice person. I would stay 10 minutes extra even though I didn't have it. So it was more of the, again, the people pleasing. Fame is a great first seat in the restaurant. It's wonderful. It gets you things like not having to stand in line at Disney World. Who doesn't love that? But I wasn't addicted like mom was in that respect.

• 2:41:03Speaker 04

  But I did love people pleasing. Because I had everything. You have to remember, I never came up in bars. I never had to work. The crappy shows where people are throwing beer bottles.

• 2:41:18Speaker 04

  It was handed to me almost on a silver platter. So I didn't feel like I had earned it.

• 2:41:25Speaker 04

  Does that make sense?

• 2:41:29Speaker 04

  To a certain degree, it's like you Navy SEALs, you know, people don't really, really understand what happens and what has to take place for you to earn that. All they see is all the, you know, the TikToks where everybody's fabulous. But nobody really knows what you go through. So I felt like people are going to assume that I made it because of my mother, because I had a manager, because I had a record label.

• 2:42:00Speaker 04

  So I had to prove myself. I had to give it back. I remember sending people to rehab, buying people cars, Harleys.

• 2:42:10Speaker 04

  Because I felt like I needed to give it away. My accountant said, I'm going to fire you. And they had an intervention because they said, you're doing everything you can to get rid of it. You're getting rid of everything that you have, little by little. And I can't work with you and watch you do that. So I quit.

• 2:42:35Speaker 04

  Here's a card. If you want to go to rehab, financial rehab, go for it. Because you're losing your finances.

• 2:42:46Speaker 04

  I mean, I bought my mother the tour bus we had for Christmas.

• 2:42:51Speaker 04

  That's half a million at the time. What am I doing? So it can sit in her driveway? And she could play cards on it?

• 2:43:02Speaker 04

  What am I doing?

• 2:43:05Speaker 04

  I bought it for sentimental reasons, but still.

• 2:43:12Speaker 04

  Buy some jewelry. Something else. And, uh, so yeah, I wanted to do the right thing for the right reasons, but I, I missed the whole message.

• 2:43:31Speaker 04

  The message was, I'm going to go back to welfare if I don't stop.

• 2:43:35Shawn Ryan?

  It was that bad?

• 2:43:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:43:39Speaker 04

  They literally took my land and made a map and put 2010, 2020. And they would put little zigzag lines in it and they would cut it off saying, if you spend the way you're spending now, and they would cut off more land. And then I got down to 20 acres.

• 2:43:59Speaker 04

  And then there was none.

• 2:44:03Speaker 04

  Oh, it was deep. It was real.

• 2:44:09Speaker 04

  It was real.

• 2:44:13Shawn Ryan?

  And then in 2003, you married your bodyguard.

• 2:44:17Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm. Just like the movie.

• 2:44:24Speaker 04

  It's the only person I trusted.

• 2:44:27Speaker 04

  You know how that works. You have one person you trust with your life. And we had been best friends for 10 years and never saw him as a guy other than a guy in a suit. But I trusted him. He was the only one.

• 2:44:43Shawn Ryan?

  He was the only person?

• 2:44:44Speaker 04

  Only person, besides my nanny.

• 2:44:48Speaker 04

  That I really felt like I could trust for the right reasons. I adore him. He just happened to be an alcoholic. So there's that.

• 2:45:03Speaker 04

  So it didn't work.

• 2:45:08Shawn Ryan?

  That's why you loved him?

• 2:45:09Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:45:10Shawn Ryan?

  Is that the only reason?

• 2:45:13Speaker 04

  No, that's not the only reason.

• 2:45:17Speaker 04

  And it's painful to talk about, so I'm trying to figure out if I'm ready. And I'm not sure.

• 2:45:22Shawn Ryan?

  That's okay.

• 2:45:23Speaker 04

  Yeah. But there will come a time, maybe the book, we'll see. But no, that wasn't the only reason. There was a lot of dysfunction among our family members. And I feel responsible for my part, of course. I've been working on it for years to let go of the fact that I married an alcoholic. And that was really hard. 15 years is a long time.

• 2:45:52Speaker 04

  Just about killed me.

• 2:45:54Shawn Ryan?

  What was 15 years?

• 2:45:56Speaker 04

  The relationship.

• 2:45:57Shawn Ryan?

  You were with him for 15 years?

• 2:45:59Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. We worked together 10 before we kissed.

• 2:46:05Speaker 04

  So it was a long and painful process. And boy, did I learn a lot of, again, what I don't want.

• 2:46:17Shawn Ryan?

  Not long after that, you met your brother, Michael.

• 2:46:22Speaker 04

  Good question. You're gonna have to do the math for me.

• 2:46:26Speaker 04

  Because I'm not sure.

• 2:46:30Speaker 04

  I couldn't tell you.

• 2:46:33Speaker 04

  There's so much going on there, trauma. I don't remember.

• 2:46:37Shawn Ryan?

  Well, let's skip to something good.

• 2:46:39Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 2:46:40Shawn Ryan?

  How did you meet Cactus?

• 2:46:42Speaker 04

  I was 26. He had a band called Highway 101 and they opened for the Judds on a tour. And I fell in love with him at first sight. He had a Colorado waterfall mullet.

• 2:47:00Speaker 04

  And I've known him since I was 26 and we were friends. We would see each other at CMA and all the events. And, uh,

• 2:47:11Speaker 04

  during the tour, he asked me if I wanted to go to Mayo with him accompanying me. And I said, no, I need to go take care of my mom. So he went his way and I went my way. And we had kids and got married. And then, uh, started running into each other again. And here we are.

• 2:47:33Speaker 04

  I trust him with my life.

• 2:47:38Shawn Ryan?

  How'd he ask you to marry him?

• 2:47:39Speaker 04

  On a horse. Of course, he's a Colorado cowboy. And then she took the biggest pee in the history of mankind. It was very, very sexy.

• 2:47:53Speaker 04

  And we got married on the farm. With just the kids.

• 2:47:58Shawn Ryan?

  Nice.

• 2:47:59Speaker 04

  Small weddings are good. Especially after you have two big ones that cost you and you pay for it.

• 2:48:09Speaker 04

  But we're together still and it's a miracle because I am not the easiest person to love. But I keep trying. I keep on showing up.

• 2:48:19Shawn Ryan?

  Why do you say that?

• 2:48:20Speaker 04

  Just because of my history and everything in my life and all the ups and downs and the dysfunction in my family and the trauma. It's not easy, right? I'm the storm, he's the calm. We don't ever fight and if we do, it's me against myself and he just sits there and waits for me to get done.

• 2:48:47Speaker 04

  So, it's just not easy being me, Sean, because I've had so much hurt. And, again, broken and blessed is on the record and it says I'm somewhere between hell and hallelujah.

• 2:49:04Shawn Ryan?

  How long was it after you guys got married that the accident happened?

• 2:49:07Speaker 04

  Three months.

• 2:49:09Shawn Ryan?

  That's it?

• 2:49:09Speaker 04

  That's it.

• 2:49:10Shawn Ryan?

  Three months.

• 2:49:11Speaker 04

  We had three months. I was not prepared.

• 2:49:18Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 2:49:20Shawn Ryan?

  Do you want to describe that day?

• 2:49:23Speaker 04

  One of the most beautiful days, especially out there. Crispy, crispy air.

• 2:49:32Speaker 04

  Beautiful sky. Oh my God, the weather was fabulous. And we were gonna do a show that night and my, um, my dear friend from William Morris suggests that we go on a ride. And I didn't want to go because I wanted to, you know, rest and be ready for the show. But I felt peer pressure and got on somebody else's bike. Don't ever borrow someone else's bike. That's one of my rules. And I knew it, but I did it anyway. And he got on his bike and I got on mine and we rode out to see Crazy Horse and it was in South Dakota.

• 2:50:16Speaker 04

  And we were on our way back from that. And we came around a really good easy curve and it was beautiful and all of a sudden, a couple of hundred yards away, I see a car and a truck. And I see Cactus on his bike. I've always been in the front, but I was in the back and he was in front of me. Messing around on his bike and back and forth across the lane. And he kept going into oncoming traffic and I thought, I'm not really sure what's going on here. And he hit a vehicle going sixty, sixty-five head on. I was right behind him on the bike.

• 2:51:01Shawn Ryan?

  You saw it happen?

• 2:51:02Speaker 04

  Yeah. Sure did. Ran back to him and his leg was gone. And he was bleeding out and I knew we had minutes. And we're in the middle of nowhere, by the way. There's not even a house in sight. And, uh,

• 2:51:23Speaker 04

  I got down on my hands and knees. Tried to take off his glove and he said, "Nope, don't take my glove off." That ended up being the worst injury, believe it or not. He said the leg got cut off and that's that. But the hand, and with him being a drummer, was shattered inside the glove. If I had taken that glove off, his hand would have gone into many pieces.

• 2:51:48Speaker 04

  And, next thing I know, there's a guy down taking care of him and it turns out that he was fishing down the road and had turned right instead of left. And there he was and he saved his life. It's a crazy story. There's a documentary called The Road Back that explains the story. That's pretty great.

• 2:52:12Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 2:52:13Speaker 04

  And we bonded for life. Makes or breaks you.

• 2:52:17Shawn Ryan?

  Three months after you get married?

• 2:52:18Speaker 04

  Yep. I'm giving him a bath or a shower.

• 2:52:23Speaker 04

  And cleaning his wounds every day. I'm a nurse.

• 2:52:31Speaker 04

  So you do what you gotta do, man.

• 2:52:36Shawn Ryan?

  Well, let's take a quick break and we'll bring him on.

• 2:52:40Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 2:52:41Shawn Ryan?

  How's that?

• 2:52:43Speaker 04

  Good luck.

• 2:52:44Shawn Ryan?

  All right.

• 2:52:47Shawn Ryan?

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• 2:53:32Shawn Ryan?

  When you're responsible for a team, it helps to have that kind of support. That's why I'm a fan of Gusto. It helps us take care of the people who make this show happen. Try Gusto today at gusto.com/srs and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll at gusto.com/srs. One more time, gusto.com/srs.

• 2:54:00Shawn Ryan?

  Looking for another way to support The Sean Ryan Show? Head to seanryanshow.com and check out the latest drops from Vigilance Elite. We just released new gear, including this beautiful moisture-wicking VE Performance Hat and SRS Campfire Mugs and you guessed it, Vigilance Elite Gummy Bears. Oh shit! Every purchase directly supports the show and helps us continue bringing you independent conversations without compromise. Visit seanryanshow.com and grab yours today.

• 2:54:40Shawn Ryan?

  Cactus Smoosher. Welcome to the show.

• 2:54:43Speaker 05

  Good God, I'm a little... Like I said, being in here, knowing you all this time, and it's a little auspicious, just sitting in these chairs and talking to you.

• 2:54:54Shawn Ryan?

  It's come a long way since the attic, huh?

• 2:54:56Speaker 05

  Since your house.

• 2:54:57Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:58Speaker 05

  Hell, your attic.

• 2:55:00Shawn Ryan?

  Yep, the attic.

• 2:55:01Speaker 05

  I gotta stretch. I just gotta stretch a little bit.

• 2:55:03Shawn Ryan?

  Oh my...

• 2:55:07Speaker 05

  This is, this is how you, this is how you go in a bar and go, "If I can do this, will you buy me another one?"

• 2:55:14Shawn Ryan?

  That's incredible.

• 2:55:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, there we go. This is my, on the road, get into an Uber and go, "Here, will you hold this?" And the driver's like, "What was going on? Oh my God."

• 2:55:26Speaker 05

  So there's, you know, there's a few little fun parts of having one leg and that's about the last of it.

• 2:55:32Shawn Ryan?

  Holy shit. So I want to hear the first time you met Winona. Do you remember it?

• 2:55:38Speaker 05

  Oh yeah. It would have been nineteen eighty-seven. Oh no, it was nineteen eighty-six. So I'm in Nashville, coming from, living in California at that point.

• 2:55:51Speaker 05

  And I go to this bar, which used to be downtown Nashville had, you know, three bars maybe that were cooler.

• 2:55:59Speaker 05

  And I'm sitting there with my partner, this guy Curtis Stone. We were the Highway 101, two, you know, beautiful blond men. Boys at that point. And I, she sat down at a table next to us with her then assistant, who I went on to be friends with later, but and I came in and I was like, "Whoa." And she was looking great and she was just... But she came into the room and it was like, "Oh shit, the stars here," you know, it was just like the whole atmosphere changed. Everybody's looking, talking. I mean, by eighty-seven, they were... She was mammoth in terms of stardom and presence and all that. All that hair. And so I'm sitting there kind of going,

• 2:56:41Speaker 05

  hmm, probably eighty-six or, yeah, maybe even late eighty-five, but probably eighty-six. And I go, hmm, she should probably know me. And so

• 2:56:52Speaker 05

  I lean over and I remember she was right here and I tapped her on the back and I said, "Hey, hi, I'm a Cactus, you know, from Highway 101, you, you know, we're kind of a big deal, you probably know me." And she turned around and she looked at me and she goes, "Oh, hi." And then she just turned back around and didn't say another word, wasn't a conversation starter. Nothing, just like shut me down. I'm like, okay, what if everybody saw that? Because that was a total fail. And I just thought, well, okay. And, uh, because I remember looking at Curtis going, "Oh, there's the baby Judd," you know, it was like, you know, mom and then there was this girl. And I'd heard about her. Because in California, I was in the studio music business mostly before the Highway 101 thing had happened and kind of took off and I was like,

• 2:57:37Speaker 05

  remember, even out there, people like me, I wasn't listening to country music. I was, you know, making rock music and new wave music and all this crazy stuff in studios and I'm like, guys would come up to me and go, we'd just be having coffee and sitting at the, you know, getting ready for a session to start. And somebody go, "Have you heard this chick that sings with her mom?" And almost everybody who would be a thousand miles from country music were going, "Yeah, oh yeah. My God, she's amazing, you know, what a voice," you know? And, um, so I was aware of her, obviously, through that. Even though I hadn't been listening, you know, to know what they were doing or who they were. But you would just see a little thing somewhere and go, "Oh my God, she can sing," you know?

• 2:58:21Speaker 05

  And so, knew about her, but that was the very first face-to-face. And subsequently, then we would come here because soon as the highway thing kind of started, immediately we were winning the awards, going to the ACM, CMAs, all the same junk, Grammys. And just somehow, you know, we would seemingly kind of connect her. I'd just see her and go, "Hey, you remember me? I'm Cactus from Highway 101." Oh hi. It was the same thing. And, uh, but I was always just going, "This is, you know, this is that girl." So we did see each other a little. And then from eighty seven to eighty eight, we'd, we were out on the road all the time.

• 2:59:05Speaker 05

  With a lot of the same people, George Strait, or Randy Travis, or somebody, and then we started headlining our own things. Then in nineteen eighty nine, they call and said, do you guys wanna go out and do the whole year? This was like, probably the last year of the Judds are going into ninety, I guess, for them, but. You want this whole tour? And we were like, absolutely. And that's when I finally had more than a, oh, hello, conversation with her during that tour. And it was kinda wild, because I was, and I remember telling. Old friends, I had these old cowboy friends, they still remind me of this back in Colorado, even where I'm from. You know, team ropers and rodeo people, and they always said, you know, you always told us, that's the coolest chick I've ever met.

• 2:59:46Speaker 05

  And it was, cuz in eighty nine, we would go do a show, and then I finally coached her, you know, to talk more, and then we'd go, there's this weird bar, you know. Across the tracks where they keep, you know, open after midnight, or whatever it was, in whatever town. And I go, you wanna go out there, you know, and, and I always had a crew.

• 3:00:06Shawn Ryan?

  After midnight, you mean like after five AM?

• 3:00:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, oh, yeah, I tried to be really kind of, you know, for the kids watching.

• 3:00:12Shawn Ryan?

  You're not kidding anybody.

• 3:00:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, and we would go out, and like I said, she, you know, and it was just friends. And I do remember then, cuz she used to give me grief when we got married. Why didn't we get married sooner, or whatever, and of course, we'd had this whole other lives, I'm going, well, what I remember was in eighty nine, we'd sit at a table. And I would go, in these two hours we were here, you got ten, you know, people asking for an autograph, I only got five. I said, that would have been a problem back in those years, we would have had some kind of ego problem. But she just was fun, and it was the only girl, probably in my whole lifetime I'd ever met, who you'd go. All the same jokes I was making with the band on the bus, you know, horribly caustic, or horribly whatever, and she had a comeback.

• 3:00:58Speaker 05

  She always had a smart ass comeback for everything, and I'm like, wow. She's just like hanging out with one of my buddies, you know, she's just got it, she's like, cool. And that was my early day impressions, and that whole year, eighty nine, we did that a lot. Her bunch of goons and my bunch of goons, and we would just go out and just have a blast. I remember one night, we were in Omaha, Nebraska, and it did close at midnight. And we crossed the river in Council Bluffs, Iowa. You can go over there, and it's open till like, whenever, there's a beer bar across the, on the river.

• 3:01:36Speaker 05

  There's just cars, and it's like out of a movie, cars and people everywhere drinking, and just wild, but there's a bar. And we, when they heard she was coming, for sure, uh, we'd probably played that arena in Omaha, and, and they're like, oh, don't worry, we got a table. And we went in that bar, hung out till three, and then it was like, well, we better get back, buses are gonna roll, or whatever, you know. And, and the bands all got in whatever kind of cars, you know, and left. And it was me and Wy, and we'd come over there in a limo together with probably some other people. And, uh, so I, so she goes, well, let's go back in the limo, you know, you don't have to go back with the band, or whatever. I remember we got in that limo, and we got right to the bridge, and it quit, it dies.

• 3:02:19Speaker 05

  And the driver's out going, ah, I'm sorry, guys, I don't know, we're kind of up on the start of the bridge, and we both had drinks we'd brought from that bar. And I remember a state trooper pulls up, blue lights, comes up, and he, he taps on the glass, and I roll down the window, and he goes, uh, hey, you guys. I'm like, hey, officer, whatever, and he goes, your driver's saying this car's not going anywhere, but I don't mind taking you back across the bridge, you know, to back to your hotels. And I remember looking at Wy, was that cool, you know, cuz I felt like I had kinda like the, you know, the package with the president, I'm going, oh, my God, there's a lot of people wondering where she is. And I'm the one responsible here, and I go, well, and she goes, oh, yeah, it's fine. And then I remember looking at the state trooper, and I go, can we bring these?

• 3:03:03Speaker 05

  And he goes, oh, what the heck, come on, man, so we got into the state trooper car, got on the bridge, and I go, sir. Seems to me like the only thing appropriate for you having Wy Nana, and you know, myself in this car, and we're, would be lights and siren.

• 3:03:18Shawn Ryan?

  Holy shit.

• 3:03:19Speaker 05

  Okay, woo, you know, and he turns on, and the lights are flashing, and we pulled into the hotel. The buses are out there parked, you know, just rumbling, sitting there, and here comes this state trooper car, lights and everything, and I go, no, you gotta hit that siren again, so he starts bringing the siren. And we both pop out, and the bands are in the windows going, what the hell are you guys doing? So, there's a longer answer, but the first one was not very exciting, cuz she just blew me off.

• 3:03:47Shawn Ryan?

  Right, oh, man, well, let's move into the motorcycle answer.

• 3:03:50Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:03:50Shawn Ryan?

  So you guys get married, three months later. In a motorcycle accident.

• 3:03:55Speaker 05

  And we had dated for about two years, you know, basically, and, uh, just, you know. Continuing our friendship, which was awesome, which is a great thing, to not just jump into a heavy relationship or whatnot. Um, she was divorced, I was in the whole same process, and so it was just very slow, but, um. So we finally reached that point, I asked her to marry me on the horse. My horse did take a big pee when that, when it was all done, which is part of the greatness of the whole day. And, um, um, and a friend of mine, who, who at that point in time was this, I was going to this church, and this guy.

• 3:04:35Speaker 05

  He had been involved in my son's school, and he was just this great friend, man, uh, guy named George Grant, and he was very wise, in my view. And prior to that, not too long, I pulled up to a gas pump, and he was right there. And he looked at me, and we were talking a little bit, and he goes, Cactus, so how's it going with Wy Nana? And I said, well, you know, George, I'm just taking it slow, and, you know, just trying to be wise about everything, and he goes, he looked right at me, and he goes. You know, I've watched you for seven years, trying to do the right thing always, and just always be moving through it slowly. He goes, I'm gonna say, tell you something, don't let a good one get away. And that was like my moment of going, whoa.

• 3:05:18Speaker 05

  Cuz I thought he would say the exact opposite, like, take it slow and be, you know, I mean, it's still been, we'd been dating for a year and a half or something. And I went, wow, well, if George says that, that's kinda big. There maybe is my God moment of going, hmm, Lord, give me a sign, and then going, well, besides George, what's another sign, I didn't wanna go there. So, shortly thereafter, I thought, okay, I better figure this out and make some moves, so we, I did that, ask her. And, um, during that time, I always made the joke, I said, you know, honey, when we were dating, you'd go skiing, ride horses, anything I threw at you, you know. Well, she had been a Harley girl always, and that was a very well-known thing.

• 3:06:03Speaker 05

  I had ridden dirt bikes as a kid, out on a ranch in Colorado, chasing cows, or going for fun. I hadn't ridden a dirt bike probably in twenty years, twenty-five years, then, maybe more. But I'm thinking, once upon a time, we went to Colorado, we rented a couple Harleys, and, you know. I didn't love the fact, even sitting at a red, at a red light, and you look over, and there's a bumper of a big ass pickup next to you, and you're going. That's right here in my body, it's really, wow, but it was fine, and I felt like, yeah, I still get this, I still remember how this works. But I didn't know anything that I didn't know, which was everything about big bikes like that.

• 3:06:45Speaker 05

  So, we get to the show she talked about. We'd played in Denver the night before, and I had a bunch of high school friends and people come out, family, and then we were going up there to Deadwood. And, so we'd had a gathering, kind of later on the bus that night, I mean, we still pulled out, I'm in, and I'm sure, but we were just both tired. And, um, we'd started this band together, probably six, seven months before that, or maybe longer. I had produced some, one song for a movie called Act of Valor, big military kind of document, docudrama. And that's kinda how I got the keys to even make music with her, and, um, but the agents were there.

• 3:07:28Speaker 05

  All this, we get to Deadwood, and we're both kinda waking up on the bus going, I don't know, how do you feel? And she's like, I'm just tired, and I'm like, yeah. And just a sec, this friend of ours gets on the bus, who's the head of William Moritz, and he goes, hey, guys, perfect day, got the weather, we got bikes, I've got you guys a couple of bikes. There's eight of us, and then you two, I think, roughly.

• 3:07:51Speaker 05

  And I remember going out behind the bus even kinda like going, Lord, is this, am I supposed to? And I probably knew the answer was no. If I really go back and get honest about that moment, because I remember standing behind the bus, just looking at the sky and kinda going, hmm. Sure be easy just to say no, but it's, he's up here and he's telling us all the right things, why we should do this. So, we decide, yeah. We didn't have, we didn't have helmets and goggles, so we had to go to a shop even in town and do that first. So it was a bit of a process. And then I'm going, okay, I guess we're going. And I remember going out to the front of this hotel we were parked behind.

• 3:08:32Speaker 05

  And there they were all lined up and they go, now here's yours, you know, Cactus, you can have this one. This is a big full dresser Harley windshield, stereo, saddlebags. She had one very similar, I'm sure. Um, and you're just like, oh, I can't stop the train. And we got on those bikes. And we literally drove four minutes and we were on this little kinda windy, coming out of Deadwood, climbing up this little short hill. And I remember going, you know, you're kinda getting used to it, but it's also, you're only going 30. And I remember taking a left turn around a curve and then I was taking the right turn to come back around to this other little short turn.

• 3:09:16Speaker 05

  And that bike just kinda went out over the double yellow line. And there was a hill coming right around and I remember thinking right then, man, if a car had come around that turn, they would have hit me. Cause I could not make it turn to the right. And it certainly alarmed me and I just didn't know enough to go, oh, I should, this should be a real red flag and I need to talk to somebody and see what's going on. And I had known that the couple that these two bikes were borrowed from, they were both on brand new Harleys, that they'd had like six months. So I am sure those two bikes had sat in a garage, probably with no attention.

• 3:10:01Speaker 05

  And so, you know, now that I have hindsight, it's really easy to go, that would have been the smartest thing I could have ever done. But then you, I got around the turns, turns and then you get on straightaways, the rest of the hour and a half of this first leg of this drive. We were gonna go up and see Crazy Horse and maybe even go on further, but then you get going 60 miles an hour. And they had said, one guy had said, hey, by the way, there's been a bunch of deer sightings. So just so you know, look out for deer and just be aware. And so I kept going, okay, she didn't hear that. I need to, you know, cowboy up and I'll be the one in front and just make sure if I see something,

• 3:10:43Speaker 05

  I'll slow down and she'll know, you know, because we were always together. But then eventually you get on these big straightaways and we'd be side by side or we'd be whatever. Mostly single file probably, but, because it's all two lane roads, small, you know, mountainous roads. But you're going 60 and a turn is basically, hmm, you know, you just kinda lean the bike barely. And it does what you want it to do. There was never a really extreme besides that first little S turn. And I'm going, wow, wow, this is, you know, kinda great. It's kinda like being a horseback, you're just wind in your face. And she and I were the only two on the whole ride that had a helmet. Which I praise God every day for that.

• 3:11:27Speaker 05

  And I had gloves that I had, they were just my own leather gloves. But it was just kind of magical and perfect and you're just going, this is pretty much a dream. Cause you're just enjoying the environment. And we went about an hour and a half and stopped in a little town called Hill City, South Dakota, and had lunch. And, you know, for the next five weeks laying in hospitals or at home going, why did I not say something to somebody when we're sitting there at this table? Cause I was just going, hey, was it weird that that bike wouldn't turn that right turn, coming around those little S turns? And, you know, see if somebody said, wait, really? Well, maybe we should check the front tire.

• 3:12:09Speaker 05

  But it didn't, because it just was gone after the hour of perfect riding. And, uh, so, sit there, lunch. And then we decided, okay, well, it's about 15 miles more to the Crazy Horse Monument up here in the hills. And, um, you know, past the gas station, gas station, air pump, air pump. Just didn't. And it didn't even, but the sad thing was, it's like, if I'd have known what I was doing, because I talked to one of our road crew guys even post this in the next six months. I'm like, man, Albert, I'm glad you weren't on this bike. And he goes, not me. I would have known what was wrong. He goes, I knew, I'm a biker.

• 3:12:53Speaker 05

  You were just stupid to be on there. Shit. Yeah. Shit. So, um, I'm gonna sip of my sports drink. We continue on those 15 miles. We get to this whole state park kinda thing where you pull in to see the Crazy Horse Monument. And, uh, we parked those bikes. And we start walking and I had done the kickstand and all the stuff. But we start walking up to, and this was the first, you know, sign. Walking up there to watch, to look at the Crazy Horse thing and we hear,

• 3:13:37Speaker 05

  and everybody looks back and my bike had fallen over. Now, I still to this moment know that it didn't have anything to do with what happened. But it did crack the windshield. Cause it just kinda dumped over and we all picked it back up after we looked at them. Well, I think we went back and did that first. Then went and looked at Crazy Horse and everybody's going, well, this sucks dude, your windshield's cracked. And that's probably gonna just flip and flop. And so, the decision was, you got goggles, we're gonna have to crack this thing off. So, the first thing that was horrible when I got back to it was immediately the wind is just hitting you like a torrent. And I'm like going, damn, I'm gonna have to ride this thing.

• 3:14:22Speaker 05

  We had decided at that point, we gotta show in five hours. Going on to where we were gonna go with another point on this trip is, makes no sense. We're gonna be getting back showtime. So, we start heading back and literally, which in my mind, I have replayed, you know, not one, not two, but maybe 10 million times, the next six minutes. We pulled out of there and that's when we got on the blacktop again. And that's when I really, the wind was just killing me. And I'm like going, oh my God, this is gonna be a horrible hour and a half or two back to South, back to Deadwood. But it's all I can do.

• 3:15:06Speaker 05

  But, and we started there and one was in front of me. And I'm going, oh, she didn't remember, she never heard about the deer and I never told her. So I passed her and it was never very far separate. I could always hear her, you know, those bikes are loud, which is the thing. And I'm ahead of her and, um, and I'm just going, oh my God, this is brutal with this wind. But the tire, the S turns, the not turning was completely gone from my mind. And I'm like, wow. All I cared about was this wind was gonna, you know, beat the shit out of me for an hour and a half or an hour and two hours.

• 3:15:51Speaker 05

  But I come around her and we just started this, and this is another thing that was just, it's like a tattoo in my mind. That long, starting this long, slow, big, slow downhill right turn. And, um, and we'd probably been six minutes after we left the monument. And we're coming down that hill and, and it's a pretty good grade, really. And so I'm coming down there, they'd just had passed her and she's here and I'm listening. And all of a sudden, I'm going, oh, I gotta start following this turn. And there's one, in the mountain roads like that, there's one lane going downhill.

• 3:16:35Speaker 05

  And oddly, a lot of that stuff is like concrete, not even blacktop. It's more like, because of the weather changes and all the stuff. And it also has all these little cracks in it that are for, so wind, I mean, so wind. So rain, snow, all the elements will move out of it, so it doesn't stay wet. And, um, I start turning and I can see probably 300 yards ahead of me. So there's that lane, sorry. And then there's two lanes going up the hill. Cause uphill has a passing lane. We have a double yellow line, there's no barrier. And, um, so I'm, I'm just trying to make this turn and it starts to kinda feel like it's sliding.

• 3:17:20Speaker 05

  And I'm going, wait. And oddly, your brain is such a weird tool, but I'm a lifelong snow skier. And I'm going, I feel like I just hit some snow or some ice or something wet because it's starting to feel like it's sliding. It's not turning, and I'm just scrolling through, what in the world? And I can hear her right here. And I'm thinking, oh, my God, what? And then I went, oh, this is what it did. Two and a half hours ago. It will not make a right turn. And I also felt very unstable. I'm going, oh, my God, it, I don't know what it's doing. It doesn't feel solid under me.

• 3:18:05Speaker 05

  I'm thinking, is it going to go out from under me? And then I'm realizing, I can't, I don't know how to lay a bike down. I've heard bikers talk about it forever. Like, last thing I know how to do is lay this, you know, however many thousand pound beast on its side and slide. Not that I even want to be down there. And she's right here. And I could even see in my mind, what if we get tangled up and it becomes this huge, you know, thing, both of us? And I'm going, oh, my God, I don't, I don't know what I'm supposed to do here. And I'm definitely going, okay, Lord, you take the wheel. I don't know what's happening.

• 3:18:46Speaker 05

  And I saw this 300 yards ahead of me, or 350, is a red mid 90s Ford Dooley. And you still see it's plain as day, square body. And I'm thinking, oh, God, I've got 300 yards and I have this extra passing lane. And I have time for this to do what it did before, to come back in here. And, but I'm also going, I can't just apply brakes, shut it down, do something to help myself because of her, you know? I don't know what's going to happen. It's going to be worse for probably both of us. And then I'm thinking, oh, my God, I just got to ride this and wait for it to do the same move.

• 3:19:30Speaker 05

  And then, you know, we were probably going 60. And, and I've real, get into that, but I revisited the side of this wreck last year, and I was like, people are flying. They're going 70. And so I see that truck coming at me. Now it's probably 150 yards. And about that time, maybe even less, I'm still going, okay. And I'm probably trying to lean, I'm just doing stuff besides just trying to shut it down with the brakes. About that time, a little silver car pops out from behind that truck. He wants to pass him. And that guy's just going to floor it to get up the hill and get back in the right lane. And I'm like, oh, man. That was my space.

• 3:20:14Speaker 05

  There was my space to live. Or, you know, wait for this thing to correct itself. And it was just this, about that time, things start getting really slow. I mean, it kind of starts to process in a very weird way. And I'm thinking, oh, my God, um, hmm. Maybe, maybe, and I had this guttural feeling that possibly if I just did this, it would turn. And I, so I looked, and I remember looking and there's all those evergreens and quaky trees out there. But there were spaces, but then I realized, and you just see weeds and junk, but I realized,

• 3:20:59Speaker 05

  it just drops off. And I have no clue how far down there it goes. I'm going that fast, you know, even if I'm going 55 at that point or whatever, or 60. And I'm like, that was my option, but that doesn't look good either. And then you look back ahead, and now this truck's, the truck's probably 70 yards, and this car is coming around him, but just staying right there. And they're both just coming at me so quickly, and the time is just elapsing to where there's, I don't know what, there's no answer. I'm just here. And I remember thinking, kind of in a weird diagram in my brain, I'm going, I'm in this

• 3:21:41Speaker 05

  position, I'm going 60 miles an hour, and I'm just flying through the air. This bike doesn't have anything to do with anything anymore. It's uncontrollable. I'm in the air flying. And cars are coming at me going that fast. And then it really just hit a slow motion movie. The car is 20 yards, 15, and I'm going, hmm, what if that's a man or if that's a woman? Because I could see an outline of a body driving, and there were just enough, the sun was just perfectly on the windshield. And I'm like, wow, hmm, that's interesting. And then, then the next kind of thought I have is it's like between me and you and

• 3:22:26Speaker 05

  that table. I'm like, wow, hmm, okay, so I'm going to hit this car. And I got to think of things like, when you ski and you fall, you learn how to fall and kind of crumble and let go, and you try not to let body parts catch loose ends or whatever, you just kind of stay loose, but keep it kind of compact. I'm already prepping. And then, literally goes into just stop frame, slow mo. And I remember seeing the driver's side rearview mirror just going, wow, wow, wow, wow, pass my head on the left side. And then a big piece, I mean, thank God, it was not head on. I was, I hit the quarter panel right, basically where the front tire was. And kind of at this angle, I guess.

• 3:23:10Speaker 05

  And, and I could see then part of that whole wheel well going past me to the left side, or to my right side. And I'm just thinking, wow, am I going to just ride through this car? Is this some kind of supernatural weird God moment where I just, you know, the Red Sea parts, and I just ride through there and then everything's okay? But of course, not the reality. And then I'm on the hood of the car, and I see Y go by in real time, just go, wow. I'm like, okay, she's good. And then what I thought was, I was certain for months and months that I had laid on the hood of the car going the other way.

• 3:23:54Speaker 05

  Because I laid on my back on that car in my mind, going, well, this sky reminds me of being a kid out in Colorado on the ranch. So clear. It's not like LA sky, where there's always a little haze or a little, you know, something. It's not that. No clouds. Wow, that's weird. So this, yeah, I'm back in the mountains, you know, this is, this is like where I'm from kind of sky. And thinking, wow, that's incredible that it's, you know, really a clear day. And then next thought was kind of, well, and I play guitars, I play drums, I play all these instruments. But if I get really screwed up in this wreck, I do like EDM music. Maybe I could take on a persona, you know?

• 3:24:38Speaker 05

  I'll get a, you know, maybe instead of a mouse head, I'll get a cow head or something. I'll just become a DJ. And I'm going, there's a way to make this, you know, even there, there's a way to make this a positive. And I'm thinking about that. And then she and I just got married, you know? Her, Elijah, Grace, Paul, Wyatt Sunshine, our kids are still trying to figure out, how do we merge, you know? All this has been a lot of, in my head for, you know, quite a while ago, and how do you merge families? It's a whole collision of a lot of stuff. And I'm laying there thinking, man, maybe this is the thing that brings us all into this one bubble of family joy.

• 3:25:22Speaker 05

  So maybe this is a good thing. And maybe this is, you know, God's, you know, purpose and meaning in this whole thing, you know, I hate this, but I'm sure I'm going to be fine because I've just always been fine. I've always had, you know, whenever you have something like trauma, I go, man, I always just know how to roll with the punch. So I'm laying there thinking that. And then I could feel myself starting to move off the edge of the car. And going, oh, okay, here's what I got to be cautious of. I don't want to come off this car and have him drive over my head. I have a helmet, but I'm thinking, meh. So I need to figure out, if I come off here, I need to try and push myself away from this

• 3:26:06Speaker 05

  60 mile an hour, 70 mile an hour car. And soon as I felt myself airborne and I hit the ground, I'm like, okay, yeah, car's gone. I'm clear. And then I started just rolling like, I'm going, oh, my God, you can't roll this fast. This isn't, I'm going to roll off into something else and hit a tree or roll off, and I'm going too fast. So I started trying to use my arms, my legs, whatever, to kind of break. You finally come to the end of the big, you know, great roll. And I remember kind of being over on my face on the ground and just going, oh. But it knocked the wind out of me, so I couldn't breathe for a second. I'm just going, oh, what, oh.

• 3:26:51Speaker 05

  And I just remember thinking, why did this have to happen? And literally as soon as I could get my breath almost, I started going,

• 3:26:59Speaker 05

  "Wait a minute, we have a show in like four hours." And the first thing I ever do, no matter what kind of, you fall off a ladder, you fall off a horse, you fall out, you hit your hand, it's like, "Oh, uh, am I okay to play?" You know, I gotta be able to do that really soon. So I'm laying there, thinking that exact thought, and I start hearing this guy yelling above me in a sort of Hispanic sounding dialect, "Stop the cars, stop the cars." And I'm kinda thinking, "The cars are all stopped, I mean, what cars?" And, and I'm also going, the, my first instinct was, or my first, you know, shock was, "Oh my God, don't yell." It would just seem so loud. I'm going, "Dude, just be quiet, bro, just be quiet."

• 3:27:43Speaker 05

  Let me just, I'm really trying to go, "Okay, I gotta deal with me." You just, you know, let me have some space. Well, turns out, one car had, when I was rolling, a car had been coming from the opposite direction, had already swerved to miss me. Another car had come in through there, several cars that almost killed me, you know, I'm rolling down the road. Um, so I didn't know any of that. And he's doing all that. And then I remember kinda laying there and looking and going, "Where's Y?" And I could see a hundred yards down the road, or 75, her bike. And I remember seeing her getting off and just letting it go and it just fell over.

• 3:28:22Speaker 05

  Like, "Okay, well, she's good." In some kind of, some kind of thought, you know, I don't even know how clear it was, but going, "Okay." And then just laying there going, "I really need to take care of me. I need to not focus on any of this other stuff." And this guy, his name was Sean, I later found out, was an off-duty EMT, was literally saving my life. People started coming around, other drivers who had, one of them worked at a hospital in, in Deadwood, one of them, you know, they had medical backgrounds. He was an EMT that just had decided to go fishing. And, and as a wife, as a wife I mentioned, he turned, his kids were bugging him to go home from fishing, five minutes before.

• 3:29:06Speaker 05

  And he goes, "Okay, well, we'll go home, but I'm going the long way." So he turned right, instead of going left, back towards Deadwood. And it was a longer, more scenic drive, which I later met him, and he told me these things. But, um, he, you know, was standing there doing all this stuff, I was ignoring it. And just kinda laying there and trying to, and I had a moment there where, where I was like, "I'm not dying, I'm still good, right?" And I'm talking to myself. And I did start just yelling the word "Jesus." I was like, "I don't care who else is here, this is who's taking care of this thing." And I started kinda, when I, when I first quit rolling, I had that glove on and I could

• 3:29:51Speaker 05

  see my fingers were like these joints or whatever were sticking up like this. And I remember laying there going, "I got this gig. I need to unstick these right now, so I'm, my hands ready." So I remember kinda starting to go, you know, trying to pull and think, "Oh, this is gonna pop back into socket." And then I realized, they weren't doing anything, plus it hurt like a wild banshee. And so I left my hand on that glove, and before too long, there was a bunch of people, and then Wyatt had come up there and she was talking to me, and our buddy who had gotten the bikes, who had been an EMT himself years before, was hearing my face and they're talking to me.

• 3:30:34Speaker 05

  And I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, Jesus, Jesus." And I would just go in, "There's only one way, I don't care what all you people think, you're not saving me." And, um, I didn't know, he reached down, I could feel him doing something to my pants. And I'm like, "What, what is he doing?" And he'd taken a knife and was cutting my pants open so he could see. And I remember kinda sitting up to see Y, and I could see, I had on a cowboy boot, and I could see it was standing up, and it's facing away from me.

• 3:31:14Speaker 05

  And, you know, and I had been with, with my, with Wyatt and call, I'd been a skateboarder and done all the stuff you do as a dad, you know, and, and I'm thinking, "I'm never watching any of those skateboard videos anymore where people have these huge wrecks, you know? I, that sucks to see people get hurt." I don't, this, my, my foot's going that way. My brain was telling me it was probably a compound broken leg fracture kinda thing. Obviously what had happened, I, you know, now, no, it was, it was just laid open and there wasn't much there but flesh and ligaments going into that boot. But I didn't register that. I just was like, "Oh, shit, I don't wanna watch, you know, ridiculousness ever again. It's just stupid to watch people get hurt."

• 3:31:57Speaker 05

  But I, I saw the boot, and if I really try, sometimes I think I can see the cords and the tendons and the whatever's going in there. But what I did see was, I was like, "Whoa." And there was, and I've heard varied stories about this, but I could see this guy Sean, and maybe some other people around me, and there was this just pool, big pool, of purple blood. And I'm going, "Whoa, that's not the kinda blood that comes out of your finger when you cut it. That's that kinda blood that hasn't, you know, that's coming from somewhere else and hasn't been whatever happened yet." And I remember thinking, you know, for a lifetime in different churches, there's always

• 3:32:42Speaker 05

  talk about the purple garment of Jesus. I'm thinking, "Oh my God, that's the purple garment, that's life. That's what that is." And I'm like, "Oh, you know, that's, that's some deep shit, you know, wow." And I was just shocked to seeing him standing in it, seeing it on his feet, and going, "Hmm," you know, still not at all understanding, when that, when that thing's cut, the femoral artery, you got three minutes. So a lot of this happened pretty quick, obviously. And then I just lay back down on my helmet, 'cause it would just kinda hold me and just laying there going, "Oh God, oh God, okay, Jesus, Jesus." And just yelling it.

• 3:33:26Speaker 05

  And I could see Y talking to me and, you know, what do you say, something, you know, whatever she was saying, and this other guy Greg. And, uh, but I'm just like, "This is me and God, and I don't know what anybody else has to do with this." And about then, they had somehow gotten one belt, and I would see a good one, and pulled it tight to start a tourniquet. And this is probably in your second minute of, you know, three minutes of life, you know, whatever. And soon as they put that belt on my leg, I had never known anything close to pain until that moment. And it was like, "Ah."

• 3:34:09Speaker 05

  And I'm yelling, and I'm laying there, and I'm thinking, once again, I can't breathe. I couldn't get a breath, I couldn't, I couldn't force through what's happening. I also couldn't figure out what was happening. And my first thought was, "Oh my God, somebody has a settling torch." And they're just burning this thing to cauterize so it'll quit bleeding.

• 3:34:35Speaker 05

  And it just felt like I was putting it into a fire. And I couldn't breathe, and that was the first moment I went, "Oh dear God, I'm dying. This is, I'm dying. I can't breathe, I can't do anything." And I remember seeing, you know, my kids' faces, and seeing Y and going, "We, we can't get to this and have this be the end of the story." But I can't quite compute, um, why I can't breathe, and why this hurts so bad, and what's even happening.

• 3:35:17Speaker 05

  I just was like, it was just kinda like a blur of chaos and pain. And, uh, and just going, "You gotta fight, you gotta fight, dude, you gotta, don't, you know, don't let go of anything." And just going, "Okay, you know, this is on me to not let it go."

• 3:35:37Speaker 05

  'Cause there was definitely a few seconds of going, "My God, I can't take this pain." And maybe just letting go is a, an answer. But I still had more will to be here than not be here, is what I felt like at that point. And I was like, "You just gotta, come on, get a breath, get a breath," you know? And pretty soon, I could get sort of a breath and I could kinda just scream. And, you know, I didn't even know, but they'd put two more tourniquets on me, belts of some nature. And then, then subsequently later, when I met the people that were involved, six, seven months later, maybe, or maybe even a year, where we went back there to do that show

• 3:36:22Speaker 05

  again, um, I met them all, and there, one lady goes, "The belts wouldn't even stop you from bleeding, I actually held you to, and just squeezed where I could squeeze, to get it to not bleed." And I'm like, "Wow, okay, that's, that's big, that's a big one." And I could just sort of will myself to keep fighting and keep breathing and hanging on and, you know, screaming his name. And, uh, then I could hear this guy Sean, who was on the phone. And, you know, sometimes I think Wyatt even thought I would pass out or something, 'cause I would just close my eyes and be, all I knew was, "I gotta stay in here and take care of this.

• 3:37:04Speaker 05

  I gotta fight whatever I can do, whatever I need to think or feel or breathe or do to stay here, I gotta do it. And I can't worry about making sure you know I'm okay or anybody, I don't care, I just don't care. It's me and this." And, uh, I could hear him on the phone, calling and talking mile markers to somebody. In the meantime, I did forget, the ambulance had gotten there, in probably, I don't know, 10 minutes or something. And there wasn't ambulance there. So then there were EMTs and people around me, of most of which I just don't even remember looking at, 'cause I just thought, "You know, you guys don't, you're not, you know, this is not your job."

• 3:37:49Speaker 05

  And I could hear them with radios and talking, and I think they had put some, they told me something, I think they may have given me something in an IV form, um, I don't even know what. But, and all of them saying, "We can't give you anything for pain," or whatever, you know, I'm like, "You know, whatever." But, um, I could hear him talking to somebody on the phone, and going, "If I put him in this truck, he dies."

• 3:38:17Speaker 05

  I'm going, oh, that checks out. It's going on what I've been feeling, you know? And, because it was gonna take me to Hill City to a little, small, midway hospital. He goes, no, they don't have any way to take care of what this is. We need a helicopter. And, and I'm thinking, oh, there's gonna, I'm gonna guess I'm going for a helicopter ride. But, not knowing what that meant, and he was telling him stuff, and, and he was telling me, I remember him saying, there's power lines on the right side, we're at mile marker, you know, 78. There's trees on the left, but there's a space here on the road, there's a clearing. That's when I'm going, okay, help, this hurries.

• 3:38:58Speaker 05

  And, still, never went out, nothing, and it was 58 minutes from the wreck to that thing, that bird coming down, and me hearing it, I could hear it in the sky, and going, oh, praise God, you know, that'll probably be good, if I get on that thing. And, the pain had, you know, was still just like, I just, it just doesn't go away when that, that blood wants out, it's just whatever's all going on in your body, I don't even know. And I was just trying to compartmentalize and go, okay, keep the pain over here, and keep the will to live over here, and just keep thinking, what do I need to do in here? And they kept trying to cut that glove off, they'd cut my belt, I remember that, and going, that's a, that's a great belt, a friend of mine made that.

• 3:39:42Speaker 05

  And I remember, I'm wearing it today. And, or am I? No, I'm not. But, I'm like, just don't cut my stuff off, you know, just quit that. You're not, you have nothing to do with this. But they would get that glove, and I remember, whatever it was, Holy Spirit anger going, do not touch the glove. Okay, okay, leave the glove. Everybody was talking, leave the glove, leave the glove. And, not even really knowing what was happening here, because I'd kind of forgotten about that with all this. And, I'm still just trying to keep thinking all these thoughts about the kids, and, you know, what is, what is going on? We just started this family.

• 3:40:23Speaker 05

  And heard that chopper, and then, and I remember hearing it land, and then they, those guys all come running at me, and telling me, we gotta put you on another gurney, sir, you know? And we're gonna have to take you over here, and we'll get you in this chopper, and we'll get you to the hospital, but it's gonna be a little, you're gonna be bumped around a little bit, and it's gonna be probably not your favorite. And I'm like, another, another is my favorite, let's just get to what we need to get to. And I remember them moving me and dragging whatever over there, and I didn't look down, because they had to cut my foot off there. And, dis- dis- attached from that boot, and all that stuff.

• 3:41:07Speaker 05

  They just had to cut what was left laying there, in flesh and everything. And, you know, post that, they went to Y and told her, right as soon as I got in the chopper, they're going, we will take care of all this that's laying here, we won't let it be, because there was a crowd by then. And there are people putting pictures in their phone, and sending them to TMZ by 5 o'clock that night. Oh, yeah, yeah. The, the fame piece was still a play. And they go, so they knew, they could tell, and they knew who we were, and they said, we will clean this up, as much of this as we can, and we will do what we're supposed to do with it. But I know they cut the foot off, because it showed up at the hospital, in the sock.

• 3:41:52Speaker 05

  And I'm like, you know, and I can, I can see it there, but... Anyway, getting the chopper, and I remember the doctor sitting over me, and he goes, now, Mr. Mosier, we can't, I really can't give you anything for pain, I can give you a little something to maybe ease it for a second, we'll probably be in the air 15 minutes, and then we'll be at the hospital, but you're gonna need to be able to talk to doctors, and you're gonna need to be able to communicate, so we can't really make this any better for you. Okay, whatever, you know, just, that's great, take me. And, so all that was kind of going at the same time, besides the, you know, people taking pictures of all of it. Because there were so many pictures on the internet and everywhere else, when I finally was through it,

• 3:42:37Speaker 05

  I'm like, how in the hell? Who was doing all this, you know? Where, why is there so much? But, so what happens? Anyway, gotten that chopper, and I remember the guy saying that, and I was like, okay. And then I kind of did miss a lot of that ride. I remember thinking, hmm, we're coming down, and I think they tried to wake me up, and probably did. And I remember hearing us coming down, I could hear the chopper echoing off the wall of this hospital, I kind of looked out and could see this little hospital. And I'm going, oh my God, okay, here we are. But, after reawakening, then the pain was even more intense. And, so, my son-in-law, Justin, who plays guitar with us,

• 3:43:20Speaker 05

  had been driven from Deadwood over, now I'm in Rapid City, they'd made an hour and a half drive. They put Y in a state trooper car, and said, you probably have phone service for about five or eight minutes, and then you're gonna be dead for most of this drive. And so she's calling, you know, family, whoever she thought she could, to spread the word. And, so Justin and, and another friend came over from our crew, and he said, he was in the hospital waiting time I got there, and he said, man, there was no doubt he would arrive, because you could hear you yelling, screaming from the door, till they got you back to where the doctor was gonna talk to you.

• 3:44:04Speaker 05

  And I, you know, I knew the pain, I wasn't quite as aware, I was just screaming, but I was. And, it was just blinding, the pain was just unbelievable. So, I remember being rolled into the, this room, and Justin was there, and, this doctor, and then whoever, other nurses or whatever. And I remember looking down and seeing that black sock. They probably had me covered in some stuff too, but I don't, he had probably taken that off, but I remember seeing that black sock and going, what? And I still held the glove, and I remember telling him, this is, do not take this off.

• 3:44:46Speaker 05

  This is holding this together. And, okay, we, we got you, we understand, we have to look at that, but we understand we're gonna be very cautious. And, and then he leaned over me, and he looks down, and he's like going, so, here's the deal, Mr. Mosier, um, uh, I'm gonna do everything I can to save your hand. And I'm already going, what? Save it? And he goes, but, what's happened to the leg? I can't do anything about that. And I'm going, what has really happened to this leg? And I think I even asked him, and he said, well, it's just gone.

• 3:45:28Speaker 05

  And I'm going, oh my God. And I kind of, for a second, went, wait, where's the part of the movie where I get to go, they go, we could work on this, or you can just say, let it go. And I remember thinking, I want to have that heroic moment, where I'm the hero, and go, oh, you can take the leg. Because I am a badass. And I literally thinking, where's, I get to say yes or no, don't I? And he was like, yeah, that's a done deal. And I'm kind of, whoa, my God, you know, wait, and you're, and you're thinking all the things you do. I do a lot with this leg. And you kind of did, I kind of was like, wait, I, I'm an athlete, I do all kind, you know, I still

• 3:46:13Speaker 05

  friggin' play basketball, you know, I still ski, I still ride, I do all these things. I'm like, okay, okay. And, in some version of how clear I could be, he goes, so we're gonna take you in, I'm gonna take off, you know, we, I think maybe they had looked at the hand by then or something, I don't know, that's probably, you know, vague. They go, you're gonna go to surgery, we're gonna get you in there now, so, it's probably gonna be five hours, you'll be back out, and, you know, your wife's coming, and your, this is your son-in-law's here, and they'll all be here, you know, but you gotta go with us now. So then, we rolled away, and... Six hours, I guess, later, or six and a half, I think, about eleven, that was about

• 3:46:58Speaker 05

  five o'clock in the afternoon, about eleven thirty, I wakened in the hospital room.

• 3:47:04Speaker 05

  And you hear all the beeps and buzzes and weird shit. Shit. Yeah. And all I could think was, I looked down, and it was covered, but I could see this whole thing down here, this contraption by my end of my leg, which at the end of my leg was here, so maybe it was like right here, I don't know, I'm laying down, and I'm thinking, probably looking for where my foot would have been, and instead it was there up here, and this thing, and they started explaining, well, this is like a vacuum, and we're cleaning, because this leg was cut off by a dirty car, you rolled down the road,

• 3:47:46Speaker 05

  all this gravel and rock, and all this stuff's up in there, and we had to clean it out, we're still cleaning, we're still doing what we will do for the next few days, because we can't begin until it's clean. Okay, and then, this was in a huge, big thing, and I'm like, what's going on here? You know, and they're like, well, we have placed your hand in the neutral position, which is basically this, and we've got your fingers and your thumb and everything, and we think, you know, it looks good, we're not gonna say more than it looks good, and it's gonna be like this for a while.

• 3:48:28Speaker 05

  And I'm just like, good God, you know, this is a, not one I wanna wake up to. And I was also so thirsty, that I was like, okay, I just need water, I need water, and they're like, we can give you a little cup of ice. I'm like, no, no, no, no, I need water. And for hours, I kept bargaining with the nurse, and I said, I know, there's a hundred dollar bill in my pants, go get it, and go get me, go to Sonic and get me one of those giant cups of, you know, strawberry alive aid. She's like, well, that's great, I don't want your hundred dollars, but I can't do that, you can't have all that fluid, and I'm like, oh my God, I was bargaining. And I finally did get her to get me a little baby, one of those little baby cans of Fresca,

• 3:49:12Speaker 05

  which I'll never forget, and it was the greatest taste I'd ever tasted in my whole life, you know, but it was very much, and to back up, what was funny about me laying on that car for all that time, when they started talking about all this gravel, and all this stuff in my leg, I, a year later, found out from one of the guys who was there, because I kept going, are there any pictures, I wanna see what my leg was, what it was it? And this guy who was on the ride said, I feel kinda creepy, but I have one, and I got it, and it was sort of nondescript, I mean, it's kinda hard to tell, but I said, so how long was I on the hood of that car, going the other direction?

• 3:49:50Speaker 05

  And he's like, hood of the car? Dude, you hit that windshield, and you flew like a missile, like eighty yards, in the air. I'm going, that whole movie of me laying on the hood, and thinking about being a DJ and the kids, I mean, I was just in the air flying. So that's kind of like, one of the weird things about shock. So, it's eleven thirty, eleven forty-five, and I was probably, and Justin was in there, praying, reading the word, Wyatt come in, um, we had talked and everything, and I was thinking, I just need to get some sleep, or I think they were telling me, you know, we need to let him rest, so Wyatt was like, we'd had one of the tour buses brought over

• 3:50:35Speaker 05

  to the hospital, so she went back to the bus, and Justin goes, they're gonna take turns, who does what, and Justin's like, I'm good, you go get some rest, I'll stay here.

• 3:50:44Speaker 05

  And by then, it was maybe one in the morning, and I've got the dilated IV over here, I guess, or the morphine, with the little button, that they say, just push it with every ten minutes, and there'll be a little alarm goes off if you haven't, and then they've got dilated going in over here, or somewhere, probably there. And I'm like, I, I don't, I'm good, I don't need all that, you know, and she's like, you have to stay out of the pain, you have no idea what this is gonna feel like when you get, when you're not ahead of the pain. Okay, you know, I'll try it, you know, for whatever.

• 3:51:27Speaker 05

  And so, um, you know, every ten minutes, I'd hear the beep, and I'd push it, or whatever, and probably after an hour or two, it started to be like, I think I'm gonna push it, because it would definitely start to be like, oh, I'm starting to feel this. Me and Justin are talking, kind of, and he's like, man, just go ahead and take a rest, you know, don't worry, we're not, you don't have to entertain me, and I'm not trying to, but, and I'm, boop, and so, I finally, he said, my breathing started to kind of slow down, you know, and I just kinda get calm and quiet, and, um, and he goes, then all of a sudden, you just stopped breathing.

• 3:52:12Speaker 05

  Your breathing went from kinda regular to kinda slower, to just like, ah.

• 3:52:19Speaker 05

  And he goes, I'm sitting there, I'm sitting there, and your heart was beating, you could hear the, see the monitor, but he's just sitting right here, and he goes, he's not taking a breath, and I didn't. And he's like, oh my God, oh my God, and so he ran out in the hall and yelled, very little, small, quiet, peaceful little, not very big hospital, he goes, he's quit breathing.

• 3:52:42Speaker 05

  And the nurse goes, get in there, get him awake, I don't care what you gotta do, get on top of him, slap him, do whatever you gotta do. So, here's, you know, for a sudden, I'm going, okay, and so he comes in, and jumped literally on top of me in that hospital bed, and is smacking me, slapping me, cactus, cactus, and shaking me, and going, you gotta wake up, you gotta wake up. And I remember, and they went to get the crash cart thing, which has got everything that will reverse every pain med and all the stuff, adrenaline, every Hunter S. Thompson, you know, drug we ever read about, and I'm like, and they probably hit me with that

• 3:53:27Speaker 05

  too, and I remember coming awake, like I'd been launched out of a cannon, and she'd be like, what? What? And I remember seeing Justin right here, and I'm like, what is going on? And he's like, dude, you gotta stay awake, but then I was so overran, then they were telling him, well, keep him calm, and he's like, what am I doing? Slapping him, hitting him, keeping him awake, or am I keeping calm? And he would go, no, no, no, you're good, you're good, and I'm like, what's going on? What's going on? And I had this very clear, weird vision going on, and I'm looking down here, and I

• 3:54:07Speaker 05

  could see, um, like, where my stomach was, it looked like, kind of like one of those pixelated things in a movie or something, but it was, looked like, there was like this rolling waterfall, of just reality, I mean, it wasn't something physical, it was just something rolling like this, and it was like, and I felt like it was a waterfall, and I'm going, and then he would calm me down, and then I would fall back to sleep, and then he would re-wake me up, and I'm like, I gotta, what am I gonna do? And I'm going, I can see this thing very clearly, and I'm thinking, this is a test,

• 3:54:50Speaker 05

  I'm going, tell me what to do, I will do it, what do I need to do to live? And this felt like this was very alluring, and it was like going, and it was almost like a conversation, somebody was going, just go to sleep, come on over the waterfall, just come on. And I'm thinking, it doesn't feel like a good thing, this doesn't, this feels like a lie. It's too easy, I mean, for one thing, it'd just be like, because when I would fall back to sleep, which probably happened six times, or, I don't know, because it was so, oh, this feels so good, and then he would shake me, wake me back up, and I'd be like, oh my God.

• 3:55:32Speaker 05

  And I did say, every time, this is a test, you have to tell me, Justin, what do I need to do? Explain it, I will just do it right now.

• 3:55:44Speaker 05

  And then he would, he would just do this, no, no, just be calm, and then, I don't know, I can't say who else was in there, it was just me and him, and this whole vision, and this thing, and I'm like going, and this kind of voice is going, you just go to sleep, man, just come on over.

• 3:56:01Speaker 05

  But it was just like, like a top of a waterfall, and I could just see it rolling, I'm just, I don't know why it's here, is it your, you know, my soul, my, what is it? And I felt like it was definitely, I didn't feel like this was God, I felt like this was something else, going, just let go, man, come on, it's easy, come on, come on with us. And so, so every time I would wake back up, and he would, he would just explain, no, no, no, you don't have to do anything, you don't, you just, just stay awake, stay awake. And it was so hard to fight those, you know, everything taking me down, and trying to go, I gotta breathe, I gotta, okay, what do I, and, and he would never give me this equation that I was wanting, you gotta do this, and do this, and do this, and you'll

• 3:56:46Speaker 05

  be fine, of course, it didn't exist, but what I really wanted to do was avoid this, you know, waterfall of dying, and, um, so, then, I don't know, they obviously probably started some kind of process to calm me, but keep me alive and not make me go down, um, and after, he says, and I've, you know, we've talked about this over the years, it was like an hour and a half of this process, of him on me, pulling me back up, me going back down, pulling me back up, and he goes, oh no, it happened a long time, he goes, I'd hit you a bunch of times, he goes, I was shocked you didn't have bruises on your face,

• 3:57:29Speaker 05

  to get you to not fall asleep, and I'm sure once he was on me, they were going, you just stay up there, dude, you got it. And so he literally did, you know, pull me out of that, and this voice would be less saying, just let go, just let go, and me going, I'm not, no, I'm not fucking doing that, you know, but it was so easy just to fall back to sleep. Anyway, fought through all that, got through all that, and I guess that lasted up until early, early in the morning, till, well, they finally got me where I was stabilized enough to, you know, he could get off the bed. Shish.

• 3:58:12Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:58:14Speaker 05

  And we wound up being, so

• 3:58:19Speaker 05

  the hand specialist came in to see me the next day, who was there, you know, South Dakota, the South Dakota hand guy, and the leg guy, and they were going, "You definitely need to go back to Nashville to, you know, really have this looked at." And Greg, who was the guy that got those bikes for us, who was the head of William Morris, had dear friends at Vanderbilt, Doug Whitekirt, who's the head of all the hand specialty stuff. I mean, symphony players or musicians have flown from around the world to come see him. Greg had already called them, said, "You gotta see this guy, so get that squirt away as soon as he can come from here."

• 3:58:59Speaker 05

  And the leg thing was, was, it was kind of defined, you know, they're gonna do what they're gonna do. We just gotta keep it clean. But you gotta have enough strength to be able to go, "You can leave this hospital and get back to Nashville." And I was definitely going, you know, I mean, it was wild. Why Nana was out there? It's a very bizarre reality in this little town. People even showing up there to look at the bus and go, "Oh, my God, this is on the news. This is what's going on there. She's in there. He's up there." You know, strange dealings. One of the guys that almost hit me

• 3:59:39Speaker 05

  had driven to the hospital when I was in surgery, came in, found Justin and said, "I almost drove over him when he was rolling down the road. I just gotta know. I don't need to see him. I don't want to meet anybody. I don't want anything. Just tell me he's okay." And he said, "Well, he's in surgery and, you know, you didn't hit him, thank God, and thank you for coming and all that." But, so the next day, I'm just kind of assessing and going, you know, I don't ever feel very good. And I'm like, I don't know when I'll, I'll feel it and know it when we can look at, you know, put me on a little jet and fly me back to Nashville, but I don't want to rush it. And they were all going, "You're fine. This is put in place. This is cleaning.

• 4:00:22Speaker 05

  Nothing besides your strength and being able to take that kind of travel, that kind of exertion matters." And I knew why was, you know, she was fine, but it was definitely, it was just tough. She couldn't hardly move through the hospital to come see me without, you know, all the rigmarole.

• 4:00:41Speaker 05

  And so, but it wasn't like she pressured me. And I just kept going, "I know I gotta get, I gotta feel when it's right." Justin was there.

• 4:00:53Speaker 05

  And we were all just would have these little meetings and go, even with why I wasn't there, and he's like going, "Dude, you gotta know when you feel right. You can't go to try and get her, save her. You can't do anything before you feel like you can make that kind of trip." And I was pretty certain, I don't think I can, I can barely, and by then, this thing is like this big. And of course, they wrap it really tight to keep trying to squeeze the fluids and liquids out of it and keep the swelling down. So it doesn't get worse and the skin start to split or some kind of weird other crazy crap. And

• 4:01:31Speaker 05

  I knew that, you know, I couldn't turn over. I couldn't roll in the bed. I couldn't do anything without that, just going, "Oh, my God, that thing is like a pain pallet in the size of a, you know, huge ham attached to me, so I can't." It was pretty much hell, you know, you're just going, "This couldn't be worse." Bed's horrible. All hospitals, beds are horrible, you know.

• 4:01:55Speaker 05

  But couldn't turn, couldn't move, and just couldn't do anything but lay there and try and, I would lay there and go, "Just, Jesus, whatever it takes, whatever you need from me, if you'll just take me back 30 seconds before that wreck, I know I can fix this." And I could not have yearned, tried, prayed, willed myself anymore to get back. And look, what I could do, I knew I could change something. I just was positive. And I'm laying there just in this kind of weird hell and thinking, "Wait a minute, am I ever gonna be able to do any, am I ever gonna be able to play instruments again? Am I ever gonna be able to do anything?

• 4:02:38Speaker 05

  This, I don't even know what's in here. It's so huge and so weird, and I just feel like hell." But that was on Saturday, so the wreck was on Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. And by Tuesday, I was like, "I think, I think I'll be okay to go on Wednesday." And so, started making those plans and they're going, you know, praise God, we could use MedJet and all the, you know, the finer things that, you know, thank God we could do. And

• 4:03:12Speaker 05

  so just kind of psyching up to go, "Okay, I'm moving out of here." And plus, it kind of becomes this little cocoon because I know these people now. And I could ask them questions and they felt like my safe place and going, "What do you think about this hand, you know? What do you think about all of this, you know?" They couldn't give me answers, but they just were kind of my people by then. I'm going, "I don't want to go to a new..." Anyway, so Wednesday, made the decision, you know, that'll be the day. I don't know, midday, we decided to leave there and I remember

• 4:03:45Speaker 05

  Wyatt and I were just talking and I said, "Before we leave, we need to pray for these people." And we started going out and all the hospital staff was with us. And I said, "Before we leave, I want to pray for you guys." And they were going, "What?" And man, it was like

• 4:04:00Speaker 05

  just crying and people going, "Oh, my God," you know, praying for me, me praying for them, Wyatt praying. It was kind of one of those things you'll never lose or forget, you know, those people, you don't even know, you'll never see them again. And yet they were that connected. And so we went, then I remember being in the ambulance, you know, thinking, "Wow, what's it gonna feel like when we take off? When pressurization hits this, what's gonna happen?" And we got in that, you know, little jet and we took off. And I remember, because I was, it was just small, it was a little air jet. And so there's like a doctor next to me or probably a nurse, nurse, somebody. And Wyatt was way in the back. And I remember we were just like talking a little bit.

• 4:04:45Speaker 05

  And I started then getting paranoid about landing because I thought, "That's maybe when I'm gonna feel this," because it was so sensitive. And I swear, they must have started descending it like St. Louis. Because we must have come an inch at a time, because we hit the runway in Nashville and I'm going, "Where's the part where we come out of the air? We just are here." And so landed, get into an ambulance and remember going to Vanderbilt. I still drive past that and get just PTSD, if that's what it is, when I see those buildings I was seeing come up past me going,

• 4:05:17Speaker 05

  "I think I'm just about to start the worst part." Because I knew I had to have surgery to finally work on this, close it. Surgery to get into this, how much and what and, you know, all that crap. And, you know, getting wheeled into another hospital and just the worst, to me, the worst place on earth is hospital, even though, praise God, they saved me, you know. And that was, it became probably the, the next, I was there seven days.

• 4:05:47Speaker 05

  Two, the two surgeries, hand, leg.

• 4:05:52Speaker 05

  And then trying to go, "Okay, next thing you're gonna do is you're going to a rehab place

• 4:05:59Speaker 05

  and you're probably gonna be there four weeks." And I'm like, "Four weeks?" And they said, "Well, we're just gonna take it a step at a time and from here, my bed to the door of that hospital," and they said, "We're gonna get you up. We're gonna put you on a walker." And they had this weird walker that had just elbow and my hand here. And they go, "We just want to see if you can get to the door."

• 4:06:20Speaker 05

  And I had been running three days a week or more, working out all the time, the day before the wreck. I'd been on bicycle all over Denver the day before. I'm going, "I can get to that door. I can get down the hall to the desk." They're, "Okay, but what does it say here, you know? Come on, Cactus." And they get me out of the bed. And I literally

• 4:06:40Speaker 05

  hopped and hobbled with that thing and got to the door and was going,

• 4:06:46Speaker 05

  "I gotta go back to the bed." And I couldn't believe, it was a week. Well, it hadn't even been a week.

• 4:06:53Speaker 05

  Maybe it was close to a week by then, I guess. And I couldn't even walk that far or move that far and I was just toast. No strength, no energy.

• 4:07:02Shawn Ryan?

  What do you think the waterfall was?

• 4:07:05Speaker 05

  I think the waterfall was definitely a very weird spiritual thing. I do think it was a, because it just always felt like, "That's easy.

• 4:07:17Speaker 05

  I can go to sleep and just feel comfortable and go over this thing. But I feel like that's hell." And I remember saying, later discussing it, going, "I felt like it was this wheel going to hell." It was like, "Come on, just die. And we'll just take you." And it never felt like it was anything godly. The fight felt godly and it was like the hardest part, but it felt like if you just let it happen, it's easy.

• 4:07:44Shawn Ryan?

  And you'd see that every time you pass out?

• 4:07:46Speaker 05

  Yeah, every time I awakened. And it was just there, clear as a bell.

• 4:07:50Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, is there when you woke up?

• 4:07:51Speaker 05

  Yeah, as soon as I'd wake up, it'd be like, "Oh, shit, there it is." And I'm, and it was like, it was alluring. It was almost like, "Come on, come on." But it looked so vivid and bizarre, but I did feel like, "That's going to hell. That is dropping off the edge and going right to hell." And the voice was just going, you know, "Seriously, it's, just go to sleep."

• 4:08:14Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 4:08:16Shawn Ryan?

  Well, Cactus, thanks for sharing that, man.

• 4:08:22Shawn Ryan?

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• 4:09:05Shawn Ryan?

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• 4:09:19Speaker 00

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• 4:09:48Speaker 01

  In this life, you can't win.

• 4:09:50Speaker 02

  When the world gets you down.

• 4:09:52Speaker 01

  No!

• 4:09:52Speaker 02

  Escape to Pluto TV.

• 4:09:54Speaker 01

  This is objectively fantastic.

• 4:09:56Speaker 02

  Relax into the movies and shows you already know and love, all for free. Shwing! Even our news is uplifting.

• 4:10:02Shawn Ryan?

  You stay classy, San Diego.

• 4:10:03Speaker 02

  Watch School of Rock, Crazy Ex Girlfriend, Anchorman: The Legend of Ron Burgundy, The X-Files, Wayne's World, and so much more.

• 4:10:09Shawn Ryan?

  We're not worthy!

• 4:10:11Speaker 02

  The best things on TV really are free. You just have to know where to look. Escape to Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never.

• 4:10:20Shawn Ryan?

  Well, that was heavy. This whole interview's been heavy.

• 4:10:23Speaker 04

  It is heavy.

• 4:10:24Shawn Ryan?

  Wow, man.

• 4:10:26Speaker 04

  But there's light.

• 4:10:28Shawn Ryan?

  There is light.

• 4:10:28Speaker 04

  After the darkness.

• 4:10:31Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I got you a gift.

• 4:10:35Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 4:10:40Speaker 04

  What could it be?

• 4:10:46Shawn Ryan?

  It's a gun.

• 4:10:48Speaker 04

  I've never had one.

• 4:10:50Shawn Ryan?

  You've never had one?

• 4:10:51Speaker 04

  Wait a minute, I've had one gun in my entire life, and it was a Glock.

• 4:10:54Shawn Ryan?

  It was a Glock?

• 4:10:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 4:10:58Shawn Ryan?

  It was a whole Glock, hold on, a Glock.

• 4:11:00Speaker 04

  My husband, my ex-husband stole it from me.

• 4:11:03Shawn Ryan?

  Couple of months ago, was hanging out at your house,

• 4:11:09Shawn Ryan?

  and I was talking to your son Elijah about some of the stuff they're outfitted with over in the SWAT team, and...

• 4:11:18Shawn Ryan?

  I was not impressed.

• 4:11:19Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 4:11:20Shawn Ryan?

  Actually, I was pretty pissed off.

• 4:11:21Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 4:11:22Shawn Ryan?

  Raged.

• 4:11:23Speaker 04

  You go, Sean.

• 4:11:24Shawn Ryan?

  And, uh...

• 4:11:27Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, they don't have reliable weapons over there. And, uh, so I made a couple of phone calls. And, um...

• 4:11:37Speaker 04

  Of course you did.

• 4:11:38Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, I made a couple of phone calls. Actually, I was gonna do it. And, uh, I called... I got a buddy over at SIG, his name's Jason. Maybe you've heard of him. A lot of people have. And, uh, I was telling him, I said, hey, I got a good friend, he's running the SWAT team over in a neighboring county, and, uh, they have a very tight budget, and they don't have reliable firearms, you know, to do their job. And it just really pisses me off that they are out there putting their life on the line. So, I said, if you guys have some old stock or anything, uh, that you can give me a cost, I'd love to... I'd love to pay for it. And, uh, I just wanna re-outfit them

• 4:12:23Shawn Ryan?

  with some stuff that actually works, that they...

• 4:12:25Speaker 04

  Oh, my gosh.

• 4:12:25Shawn Ryan?

  Didn't have to worry about reliability issues. And, uh, he said, let... Let me... He's like, give me a week or so, and...

• 4:12:34Shawn Ryan?

  Let me see if I can... Let me see what we have.

• 4:12:37Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 4:12:38Shawn Ryan?

  So he called me back, and, uh... This isn't the exact rifle.

• 4:12:44Speaker 04

  What?

• 4:12:45Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah, but...

• 4:12:46Speaker 04

  Did you just say rifle?

• 4:12:48Shawn Ryan?

  They're gonna be very similar to this.

• 4:12:51Speaker 04

  Now, wait a minute, let me get this straight. This is for Elijah?

• 4:12:55Shawn Ryan?

  Well, this is for you. But they're gonna be similar to this. But he said, not only am I gonna give... Uh, he goes, look, we'll supply the rifles. But he said, we also want to put suppressors on the rifles and optics.

• 4:13:15Speaker 04

  I was gonna say, where's my suppressor?

• 4:13:17Shawn Ryan?

  And flashlights. So... This is a Sig Rattler 300 Blackout. It's got a folding stuff.

• 4:13:25Speaker 04

  I don't even know what that means.

• 4:13:26Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Well, you know, I think, uh, your husband, Cactus, is gonna be a lot more excited about this than you are. But, uh, this is very similar to what we're gonna outfit the Sheriff's Department, uh, that Elijah works at, with the SWAT team over there. So, they're gonna be 556, but they're gonna be SBRs, they're gonna be suppressed, they're gonna have flashlight, they're gonna have the optic. And, uh, so, I know Cactus already has a lot of... 556.

• 4:13:58Speaker 04

  Wow!

• 4:13:59Shawn Ryan?

  So...

• 4:14:00Speaker 04

  This is so heavy.

• 4:14:02Shawn Ryan?

  Well...

• 4:14:03Speaker 04

  Because that's just the way it goes.

• 4:14:04Shawn Ryan?

  Because there's a lot of ass behind it. But that's a 300 Blackout.

• 4:14:09Speaker 04

  Sean, this is my first.

• 4:14:10Shawn Ryan?

  Super quiet. Maybe we can clack a couple rounds off out back at the end of the show here.

• 4:14:16Speaker 04

  Crazy thing.

• 4:14:18Shawn Ryan?

  Bud, Bud.

• 4:14:19Speaker 04

  Sean, thank you.

• 4:14:21Shawn Ryan?

  You're welcome. But the cool thing is, is they're re-outfitting the whole SWAT team with those.

• 4:14:26Speaker 04

  OMG. Well, I wanna learn. So, this'll help me get...

• 4:14:34Speaker 04

  You know? This encourages me to start moving towards it.

• 4:14:39Shawn Ryan?

  Cool.

• 4:14:39Speaker 04

  Because I've always been afraid of them, right? So I need to embrace the fear.

• 4:14:45Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 4:14:46Shawn Ryan?

  You're welcome.

• 4:14:49Speaker 04

  Well, I got you something.

• 4:14:50Shawn Ryan?

  You did. I love presents.

• 4:14:52Speaker 04

  I know you do. But you have everything, so this is one of those that you're just gonna have to... Um, what can we do with this?

• 4:14:58Shawn Ryan?

  I'll take that.

• 4:14:59Speaker 04

  I was gonna say, you're the one that handles... Um, I've got a photo I'm looking for, so you're gonna have to give me some space on that one.

• 4:15:08Speaker 04

  This is...

• 4:15:12Speaker 04

  From my heart to yours.

• 4:15:21Speaker 04

  Instead of holy water, it's holler water.

• 4:15:27Speaker 04

  That's from the lake.

• 4:15:28Shawn Ryan?

  Is that where we got baptized?

• 4:15:29Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 4:15:31Shawn Ryan?

  Dude, this is awesome.

• 4:15:32Speaker 04

  And I've got a... I've got a photo coming with it that is... Of you getting baptized, and it's really... Oh, that's for Katie.

• 4:15:38Shawn Ryan?

  This is for Katie?

• 4:15:39Speaker 04

  Yeah. But those are holy water from the lake. Couldn't think of anything to get you.

• 4:15:46Shawn Ryan?

  Dude, this is awesome. This is perfect.

• 4:15:48Speaker 04

  Well, you'll keep it forever, and it'll remind you of that beautiful day.

• 4:15:52Shawn Ryan?

  Is this St. Michael?

• 4:15:54Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:15:56Shawn Ryan?

  Thank you.

• 4:15:56Speaker 04

  You're welcome.

• 4:15:57Shawn Ryan?

  So for those that don't know, we all got baptized together in a lake on your property on Easter Sunday a couple of years ago.

• 4:16:07Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 4:16:08Shawn Ryan?

  Thank you.

• 4:16:08Speaker 04

  You're welcome, dear one.

• 4:16:10Shawn Ryan?

  That means the world to me.

• 4:16:12Speaker 04

  I know it does. Faith is the key.

• 4:16:16Shawn Ryan?

  Thank you.

• 4:16:17Speaker 04

  You're welcome.

• 4:16:20Shawn Ryan?

  Well, actually...

• 4:16:23Shawn Ryan?

  I got you something else. So, uh... I give these out a lot on the show.

• 4:16:30Speaker 04

  Oh, you do?

• 4:16:31Shawn Ryan?

  Yes, I do. But, um, these... This is... Have you heard of the Jesus Calling book?

• 4:16:36Speaker 04

  Honey, I give them out too.

• 4:16:38Shawn Ryan?

  Do you really?

• 4:16:39Speaker 04

  These are the ones I... I go back to 1970-something, when they... I used to give them out by the truckload. What a great idea!

• 4:16:49Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, so...

• 4:16:50Speaker 04

  I give them away, you give me that one. It works out.

• 4:16:54Shawn Ryan?

  Right? So there you go.

• 4:16:56Speaker 04

  Oh, my God, that's awesome, sweetheart.

• 4:16:59Shawn Ryan?

  Emotional.

• 4:16:59Speaker 04

  No, I totally do. I give these out by, uh, the numbers. I have fans all across the world who have these. Thank you.

• 4:17:08Shawn Ryan?

  You're welcome. You're welcome.

• 4:17:10Speaker 04

  Easy-to-read, comfort-sized print. Thanks for thinking of me.

• 4:17:15Shawn Ryan?

  You're welcome.

• 4:17:16Speaker 04

  Oh, my gosh. Enjoying peace in his presence. So I, uh... Yeah, I thank you for that.

• 4:17:26Shawn Ryan?

  All right. Moving into your daughter Grace.

• 4:17:29Speaker 04

  Where are we now?

• 4:17:31Shawn Ryan?

  Your daughter Grace.

• 4:17:32Speaker 04

  Daughter Grace, okay.

• 4:17:33Shawn Ryan?

  Which, um, I know is the inspiration for the song "Drive", I believe, in your new album.

• 4:17:45Shawn Ryan?

  Six-hour round trip, every week,

• 4:17:50Shawn Ryan?

  two prison visits. And I know, uh... Your daughter struggles a lot with addiction.

• 4:17:57Speaker 04

  This will probably be, uh, the hardest part of this interview for me.

• 4:18:03Speaker 04

  Um, because I struggle, even today, with being a mom and waiting...

• 4:18:12Speaker 04

  I'm waiting for my daughter to return from a nightmarish addiction to meth.

• 4:18:20Speaker 04

  And it has been quite a journey.

• 4:18:24Speaker 04

  And unfortunately, she's been incarcerated since on and off, since she was 17.

• 4:18:31Shawn Ryan?

  How old is she now?

• 4:18:32Speaker 04

  She's 30.

• 4:18:34Speaker 04

  And the money ran out about a year and a half ago, and she did two. And I've made all the jokes about I have one on parole, I have one on patrol.

• 4:18:46Speaker 04

  My son is a deputy, and...

• 4:18:50Speaker 04

  I've done all that. And now it's time to just tell my story as a mom who's constantly in this place between hell and hallelujah. The song "Drive" is, yes, me driving by myself down to a prison outside Memphis,

• 4:19:09Speaker 04

  where they put me through quite the security, you know, search and the whole process of going down to visit her for two hours. And the song talks about, you know, setting a table for two, where I constantly talk to you, because I've been waiting for her since...

• 4:19:33Speaker 04

  I don't even know. It's been so long. On any given day, I have to ask my assistant, now, what year was it again that we did this or we did that? Because there have been 10 to 12 schools and rehab programs, and all this time and effort and money later, um, I had to let go.

• 4:19:58Speaker 04

  And that means no more enabling. And it about killed me. Because when your kid calls and says, "I'm hungry," what do you do?

• 4:20:11Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know.

• 4:20:12Speaker 04

  I know. And we've talked about this some. But it's really my hope that I can help someone else out there in the world of addiction say no with love and let go and let God. Because it is the single hardest thing for me to do in my life. I'm raising her daughter. Kalia is four. And Cactus and I are raising her together. And the song "Drive" helped me to process that pain, turn it into purpose. So onstage every night, I'm gonna dedicate this

• 4:20:55Speaker 04

  to all the parents out there that struggle with waiting on their kid to be healed.

• 4:21:01Shawn Ryan?

  There's a lot of parents out there.

• 4:21:04Speaker 04

  So I hear.

• 4:21:05Shawn Ryan?

  Through this.

• 4:21:06Speaker 04

  I know I'm not alone. I know that I'm in this situation for a reason. I'd sure like to know why the hell. But I do know this. I do know that Grace is really capable of so much. And it's crippled her life. I just found out on TikTok that she's had another baby in prison. And I don't even know if it's a boy or a girl. There are these things that people assume that I can do. But I'm just a mom in this situation. Sure, I can get a good seat in a restaurant.

• 4:21:47Speaker 04

  I can stand on the mountaintops and sing from my toenails. But this one thing, I have no control.

• 4:21:58Shawn Ryan?

  When did you find that out?

• 4:22:00Speaker 04

  Not too long ago. Cactus had let me know a little bit of information, but we were still waiting on more information. And I was scrolling TikTok, and I saw it. And I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. It's just one of those nightmarish things that you hope you wake up from.

• 4:22:37Shawn Ryan?

  How did you finally find the strength to say no?

• 4:22:45Speaker 04

  She had been incarcerated on and off for so long that it got to the point, Sean, where I realized that I'm actually helping her get drugs by buying her another new car.

• 4:23:02Speaker 04

  She has had half a dozen at least by me. And I know it sounds a little petty because it's a car. But it helped me to realize that she hasn't had a job since she was 17. And she's been in and out of prison and jail for so long that that's her way of walking through the addiction part in terms of what it costs her. When she goes to buy them. We're also now dealing with fentanyl. So there's that. And I realize, oh, my God.

• 4:23:46Speaker 04

  I'm actually, it's possible that I could be part of the reason she dies. I'm loving her to death. Literally. And Grace is really mad at me right now. And.

• 4:24:04Shawn Ryan?

  Why?

• 4:24:06Speaker 04

  Because I had a career and I was busy. And she didn't have enough of me. In the beginning, I did the best I could. I've made a lot of mistakes. And she's really mad at me for stepping in with her child. Kalia has type 1 diabetes. There's no way she could have taken care of her. That's one thing. It's a 24/7 situation. And I stepped in and I took over. And she's mad at me. And I understand that that's her journey. It's not mine. My journey is to raise this baby,

• 4:24:47Speaker 04

  to be the healthiest and break the cycle. And she's not sober. And I realize that she has to make the choice herself. I've done everything I can do, Sean. I've done everything I can do. I've sent her to wilderness programs, schools, boarding schools, where it's all about recovery. We all went to AA meetings, preteen meetings. And I've walked the walk with her for so long that I realized I'm not able to control her or control the disease. And all I have control over is myself. I finally get it.

• 4:25:31Speaker 04

  It took me hundreds of thousands of dollars later. I finally get it. But I could have been the reason she died. And I just can't live with that.

• 4:25:47Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think this is the hardest decision you've ever had to make?

• 4:25:52Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm. It is because it's a daily struggle. And I can get a phone call right before I walk onstage, which I have. And it's not good. And I have to walk onstage and do my job. And those I got through because I have faith and hope in the process of healing. But what I couldn't do is get that phone call where she's died in a car wreck on the way back from picking up drugs that I helped her buy. I'm just not gonna do it anymore. So I sit and I wait and I write songs

• 4:26:36Speaker 04

  and I talk to Cactus and my team of people around me who support me. I write letters and I throw them in the fire pit and burn them.

• 4:26:47Shawn Ryan?

  What kind of letters?

• 4:26:49Speaker 04

  Whether it's an apology that I know I'll never get. I've written letters to myself of, "I've made a mistake and I'm sorry for that mistake." And then I burn it. Or the apology I want from her for this particular thing. And I burn it because I know I'll probably never get an apology. I just walk the walk. And I love her more than my own life. And I'm open to receiving her back into my life when she's healthy. But until then, it's really painful

• 4:27:34Speaker 04

  because I have so many people who continue to tell me, "To thine unself be true." The only control I have is taking care of myself. Oh, my God. What mother or father is gonna do that when it comes to their child? It's impossible, Sean, to say no to someone who's hungry. How many DoorDash's pizza have I done? How many nights has she called me at 3:00 in the morning? And I am on the phone with my credit card? It's a son of a bitch.

• 4:28:18Speaker 04

  Meth is a son of a bitch. And it's taken my child. And I am angry. And that helps me now not be a victim, but be a victor by going out on stage, talking about it, talking about my mom's suicide, which is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. And talking about my daughter. "Drive" will be one of those moments in the show where I can say, "Been there, done that, walked through hell to get to my child."

• 4:28:51Shawn Ryan?

  You're still doing it.

• 4:28:53Speaker 04

  I'm still doing it. Still doing it. And the only reason why I'm talking about this right now with you, A, I trust you and I love you and you're my friend, is because Grace has been in the press lately. And all I want to do is say, "Hey, this isn't a public issue. This is a family issue." But she's turned the other way about it. And I just want to say, "I did the best I could. You're 30 years old and you're gonna have to stop blaming your mother at some point. And I'm here when you're ready."

• 4:29:34Shawn Ryan?

  We've talked a little bit about the

• 4:29:39Shawn Ryan?

  circumstances that Kalia was living in.

• 4:29:43Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:29:45Shawn Ryan?

  Before you were able to

• 4:29:49Shawn Ryan?

  bring her in and put her under your care.

• 4:29:52Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:29:55Shawn Ryan?

  See how happy that little girl is now.

• 4:30:00Speaker 04

  She's thriving. She's a cowgirl princess.

• 4:30:06Speaker 04

  She's brilliant, and she's four, and she's ready to show how she has grit.

• 4:30:13Speaker 04

  And she's the joy of our heart.

• 4:30:16Shawn Ryan?

  You've totally changed.

• 4:30:18Speaker 04

  A life.

• 4:30:20Shawn Ryan?

  That little girl's life trajectory.

• 4:30:22Speaker 04

  I agree. One hundred million, billion, gazillion percent.

• 4:30:29Speaker 04

  And that's my focus. That's also what helps me. Is I realize that this child is the happiest little girl on the planet. Because she has a farm, and she has chores, and she mucks stalls.

• 4:30:46Speaker 04

  If she wants to ride her horse, she has to feed her horse. But she has a horse. I never got a pony, Sean. I'm still angry about it.

• 4:30:56Shawn Ryan?

  But she did.

• 4:30:57Speaker 04

  She did. Our kids have everything, but the thing I want most for Kalia is to know that, like my grandmother did me, that she's special.

• 4:31:10Speaker 04

  She's healthy, she's special, she's beautiful, and she's my heart.

• 4:31:17Shawn Ryan?

  I'm sure she knows that.

• 4:31:19Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm. But back to the song, I... It saved me. It saved me from the despair of staying stuck in the past. I don't want to do that. I see too many people do that.

• 4:31:35Speaker 04

  I want to move forward. So making this record, it's the deepest I've ever gone. And it'll be hard for some people to listen to it because it talks about, "I love you, I hate you, I miss you sometimes." Things like that, like I say to my mom in one song,

• 4:31:54Speaker 04

  all downhill from Ashland.

• 4:31:57Speaker 04

  "I love you, I need you, I hate you sometimes," or "some days."

• 4:32:03Speaker 04

  And that was really hard to sing. I hate the disease.

• 4:32:09Speaker 04

  I hate the disease. And like you said, there are so many parents out there struggling.

• 4:32:15Speaker 04

  And they don't know who to tell. I'm no longer willing to carry that burden.

• 4:32:21Speaker 04

  I'm just not.

• 4:32:24Speaker 04

  I'm so tired. So weary from carrying it. I'm not doing it anymore.

• 4:32:32Shawn Ryan?

  Good for you.

• 4:32:33Speaker 04

  Yeah. Thank you.

• 4:32:47Shawn Ryan?

  Let's move into your mom.

• 4:32:49Speaker 04

  Let's do it.

• 4:32:56Shawn Ryan?

  The final tour is announced.

• 4:33:00Shawn Ryan?

  And a Hall of Fame induction is set

• 4:33:04Shawn Ryan?

  at the CMT Awards.

• 4:33:08Shawn Ryan?

  All good things.

• 4:33:10Speaker 04

  Yes, sir.

• 4:33:12Shawn Ryan?

  And you sensed something was off with your mother?

• 4:33:15Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 4:33:17Shawn Ryan?

  What was it? What did you feel?

• 4:33:19Speaker 04

  Well, the first thing, she was an hour late. That's never happened.

• 4:33:24Speaker 04

  And she kept us waiting, and there was a whole crew of people, not just makeup artists and managers and assistants, but a helicopter, a choir. Everyone waited. And I knew something was wrong. I just knew. It's there's... That's just not Naomi Judd. And she didn't quite know the song as well. She wrote it. But she didn't recognize the production, and she was lost. And Cactus had to come out on stage and tell her where we were in the song, and he stepped in and became her sort of right

• 4:34:07Speaker 04

  hand to help her through the chorus and the

• 4:34:12Speaker 04

  parts of the song that she was a little bit fuzzy on. And she wouldn't look at me as much. Usually, we're deadlock. You know, just eyes into eyes.

• 4:34:24Speaker 04

  And she wasn't present.

• 4:34:27Speaker 04

  And I walked away going, "What the hell is happening?"

• 4:34:34Speaker 04

  And quite devastated. Because this song has brought so many people together.

• 4:34:41Speaker 04

  And she wrote it, for God's sake. It's like, that's her, you know, penmanship on the paper.

• 4:34:50Speaker 04

  So that day was not a great day. And we were supposed to go out on a tour together, and I thought to myself, "How in the world is she gonna do that?"

• 4:35:03Shawn Ryan?

  What were you thinking? What's wrong?

• 4:35:06Speaker 04

  Well, unfortunately, the pharmaceutical companies

• 4:35:13Speaker 04

  really let her down. And the doctors that treated her more like a, an equal than a patient. Celebrities get the worst care. I've heard that time and time again. And they can get what they want.

• 4:35:29Shawn Ryan?

  They get what they want, not what they need.

• 4:35:30Speaker 04

  Right.

• 4:35:33Speaker 04

  So I chalk it up to, she was on something.

• 4:35:38Speaker 04

  Because she's done it before at award shows, where she's hitting me with her dress, and she's not leaving me alone. And I finally turned to her and say, "Stop hitting me with your dress," you know, and she's just really manic, and she had episodes, we called them.

• 4:35:53Speaker 04

  And so the pharmaceutical companies, I think, I don't know what they gave her, but they gave her something, because she wasn't herself.

• 4:36:02Speaker 04

  And I sat there, looking into her eyes at one point, thinking, "She's not there."

• 4:36:09Speaker 04

  There's nothing worse than

• 4:36:13Speaker 04

  you looking into someone's eyes and saying, "I love you," and they don't say it back. There's just nothing worse. And I felt that way. I felt like I had just told someone I loved them first, and they don't return the words. Because she wasn't singing, and it was like the light's on, but no one's home.

• 4:36:34Speaker 04

  And it bothered me, obviously. It was like, "What the hell?" And I just walked away from that experience, talking to Cactus about it, going, "Honey, something's wrong. Something is really wrong."

• 4:36:49Speaker 04

  And

• 4:36:51Speaker 04

  it went downhill from there.

• 4:36:53Shawn Ryan?

  How long before April 30th was this?

• 4:36:56Speaker 04

  Not too long. Not too long. And Kalia had been born, and I was you know, reeling from that extraordinary experience. And it was just all too much.

• 4:37:11Speaker 04

  I had just met my granddaughter in prison, and

• 4:37:16Speaker 04

  then that happened. So it was, it was within a couple of weeks of each other.

• 4:37:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 4:37:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 4:37:41Speaker 04

  I honestly don't know how I've gotten through it at times. I sit on the back porch and look up at the sky, and I'm like, "Thank God there's a heaven

• 4:37:53Speaker 04

  where there is none of this crap."

• 4:37:57Speaker 04

  Right?

• 4:38:00Shawn Ryan?

  Yep.

• 4:38:12Speaker 04

  She was very, very sick in the end and very fragile and I am

• 4:38:21Speaker 04

  just now coming to a place in my healing where I can forgive.

• 4:38:29Speaker 04

  And that's huge. I no longer think about the past like I used to. The anger is not as much in my thinking as it used to be. I used to constantly vacillate between the anger and the sadness. But if you do the work and you show up and you work through these stages, you get there. And that's acceptance. I accept it. And then the last stage is surrender. I'm working on that.

• 4:39:00Speaker 04

  Working on that one.

• 4:39:07Shawn Ryan?

  On April 30th, she committed suicide.

• 4:39:09Speaker 04

  Yes, she did.

• 4:39:14Speaker 04

  She sure did. I got a phone call around 11:00 a.m. from our life coach saying, "I need for you to come to your mother's right away."

• 4:39:27Speaker 04

  And I knew something was wrong. I just didn't expect that.

• 4:39:32Speaker 04

  And I pulled up to the house and it's just like the movies.

• 4:39:38Speaker 04

  All the cop cars, the ambulance, the lights, the caution tape. And people are running about and I looked at Lindsay and said, "Oh, my God." Jumped out of the car. I've never run that fast. I almost fainted because I couldn't quite catch my breath. And I ran upstairs and they tried to hold me back and I got past a couple of them because

• 4:40:04Speaker 04

  I was in such panic and there she was laying on the floor. And they were doing the, you know, the breathing and the CPR and

• 4:40:15Speaker 04

  there I sit watching.

• 4:40:20Speaker 04

  Ashley's the one who found her initially. But I came in while they were doing the CPR. So I got to see all the activity and

• 4:40:32Speaker 04

  they put her on the stretcher and they took her out to the ambulance and took off. And I followed. And when we got to the hospital, obviously, they took her somewhere and I had to wait for almost an hour, I think, close to it. And I walked into a room to get something to drink and Ashley was sitting there and she had her group of people around her and I had my back facing her at one point and a guy walked in the room and said, "I'm so sorry for your loss."

• 4:41:09Speaker 04

  And I whipped around and I looked at him and I said, "Excuse me?"

• 4:41:14Speaker 04

  And he looked at me like, "Oh, my God, she doesn't know."

• 4:41:19Speaker 04

  And he said, "I'm so sorry."

• 4:41:23Speaker 04

  And they finally took us back to a room in the hospital and she was laying there.

• 4:41:33Speaker 04

  And Ashley went to her feet and I went to her upper body. And I saw everything, graphic, you know, visuals and

• 4:41:42Speaker 04

  couldn't believe it. I'm in shock and denial, of course, and I closed her eyes. And I kissed her on her forehead and I said, "I love you, Mom."

• 4:41:56Speaker 04

  And I left.

• 4:42:01Speaker 04

  And then they took me to the police station and interrogated me about the murder possibility. And I'm sitting there going,

• 4:42:11Speaker 04

  "This is just like in the movies."

• 4:42:13Shawn Ryan?

  They interrogated you about a potential murder?

• 4:42:16Speaker 04

  They did everybody suspect. You're a suspect until they rule it out. You don't realize some of this, but that's what happens. And my son was on the cleanup team.

• 4:42:33Speaker 04

  So he's had his share of the trauma, of course. It's just hard to believe, honestly, Sean. It's hard to believe that this stuff can happen to you. It happens to other people.

• 4:42:44Speaker 04

  It happens in the movies, but it doesn't happen to you.

• 4:42:48Speaker 04

  And I went home, went to bed, got up the next morning and showed up to the Country Music Hall of Fame to be inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame.

• 4:43:01Speaker 04

  I was not going to miss out on my destiny.

• 4:43:07Speaker 04

  That's the only thing that kept me going.

• 4:43:15Speaker 04

  And I did it. I showed up.

• 4:43:23Speaker 04

  And that's what you gotta do, regardless of the situation.

• 4:43:28Speaker 04

  You gotta show up if you want your miracle.

• 4:43:34Shawn Ryan?

  I'm sorry.

• 4:43:36Speaker 04

  I know. I am too, Sean.

• 4:43:43Speaker 04

  I am too.

• 4:43:46Speaker 04

  Our story wasn't supposed to end that way, of course, and I carry some anger still. I deal with it the best I can and then I go sing.

• 4:44:00Speaker 04

  And now I write songs. And I have an incredible husband who loves me and a great support team around me and disciples who come sit by my side and I don't have to be alone in all this.

• 4:44:18Speaker 04

  But you gotta reach out for help. That's the thing I'm learning is you gotta be willing to go on the Sean Ryan Show and talk about this stuff and say, "Hey, it's not easy, but and

• 4:44:35Speaker 04

  I do the next right thing."

• 4:44:38Shawn Ryan?

  How does it feel to be here talking about this stuff?

• 4:44:41Speaker 04

  Well, I trust you. Last night when we were having dinner, I was asking myself that very same thing. Just because at one point I thought, "Am I really doing this? What have I done? This is really gonna happen." I didn't sleep much last night because I thought

• 4:44:59Speaker 04

  I'm gonna get the same old, same old stuff from the tabloids and the other stuff and "Why are you doing this now that she's gone? She can't defend herself" and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the truth is, this is my story and I don't think that keeping secrets anymore is beneficial to me.

• 4:45:19Speaker 04

  I just don't. Everybody's different and some people are not going to agree with what I'm doing. But the dynasty, the juds, the stories, there's some real good stuff there.

• 4:45:34Speaker 04

  But there's also dysfunction and we had it, just like every other family. And again, I'm not a victim and I'm not telling this from a place of anger. I'm telling this from a place of love for the fans, for the friends and the family who know me best as Naomi, the grandmother, who's raising a four-year-old. I do it from love, a place of love that I now know is going to carry me through all this.

• 4:46:07Speaker 04

  If that makes any sense. I wasn't ready to tell this story at 60.

• 4:46:13Speaker 04

  I wasn't ready. I'm ready now.

• 4:46:19Speaker 04

  And maybe it'll help somebody else.

• 4:46:25Speaker 04

  And that, to me, is church.

• 4:46:31Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think your mom's listening to this?

• 4:46:34Speaker 04

  I do.

• 4:46:36Speaker 04

  I do. I think she's around me a lot and I feel her and I look up a lot on stage. People ask me all the time, "Why do you look up so much?" Because I'm talking to her. "Can you hear me now? There's a song on the record." And I say, "Can you hear me now? Would you? Are you harmonizing? Can can you hear me?" And I'm constantly having conversations with her, absolutely.

• 4:47:04Speaker 04

  And where she's at, it's gotta be great.

• 4:47:07Speaker 04

  It's gotta be so great. I can't wait

• 4:47:12Speaker 04

  to see her again and I know I'm going to.

• 4:47:16Shawn Ryan?

  Do you ever feel anything back?

• 4:47:19Shawn Ryan?

  Do you ever feel anything back? From her?

• 4:47:23Speaker 04

  I get goosebumps on my neck and my arms and that's about it. I feel the Holy Spirit a lot onstage. So it's one of those, I'm not sure if it's her or the Holy Spirit.

• 4:47:38Speaker 04

  I'll take either one.

• 4:47:41Speaker 04

  So...

• 4:47:44Shawn Ryan?

  Is there anything you ever didn't you? Is there anything

• 4:47:51Shawn Ryan?

  you wish you could have told your mom?

• 4:47:54Speaker 04

  I should have said no more.

• 4:47:57Speaker 04

  Probably. That's the first thing that came to my mind. But I didn't because I wanted her to, you know, like me a lot.

• 4:48:07Speaker 04

  To get her own bus.

• 4:48:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, to get her own bus.

• 4:48:22Speaker 04

  She used to say that she was, I think she even said it on Oprah, that she was good birth control or something. She made some wisecrack. She was always doing that to me and if I just told her to get her own bus, I don't know. That probably would have been a good start for me to

• 4:48:42Speaker 04

  have better boundaries. I didn't have good boundaries.

• 4:48:48Speaker 04

  And I did her hair every single night for stage, so I want major credit in heaven for that.

• 4:49:00Speaker 04

  But otherwise, I have such peace knowing that I've done all this work and I keep showing up in whatever shape I'm in and I'm gonna keep doing so until I can't.

• 4:49:17Speaker 04

  So

• 4:49:19Speaker 04

  I have big plans.

• 4:49:21Shawn Ryan?

  I know you do.

• 4:49:32Shawn Ryan?

  Are you ready for this tour?

• 4:49:35Speaker 04

  I don't know. I think it depends on the day.

• 4:49:40Speaker 04

  And it'll be, and I make jokes about this, it depends on what state I'm in and what state I'm in. I think Ashland will be incredibly bittersweet, things like that. I'm getting ready to play my hometown, where I grew up in the dirt, and now here I am, the queen of the parade. That'll be incredibly hard in some ways, but so liberating in others. And I'm so proud to be from Kentucky and so proud to be carrying the the flag that I love every minute of it. It's just gonna be painful at times because I'm gonna try not to carry the stuff that people put on me from telling their story.

• 4:50:26Speaker 04

  You know, people come up to me all the time in airports and other places and tell me their stuff. And that's gonna be hard at times to not carry that. But I've got my ways of dealing with that, and I've got my new Jesus Calling book. So I'm gonna be okay.

• 4:50:52Shawn Ryan?

  You know, towards the beginning of this interview,

• 4:50:56Shawn Ryan?

  we talked about simplicity.

• 4:50:59Shawn Ryan?

  And you missed simplicity.

• 4:51:05Speaker 04

  You're right.

• 4:51:08Shawn Ryan?

  And that flood that triggered you to move to California.

• 4:51:16Speaker 04

  That's good.

• 4:51:19Shawn Ryan?

  So my last question is,

• 4:51:23Shawn Ryan?

  that flood changed your entire life's trajectory, everything.

• 4:51:29Speaker 04

  Good point.

• 4:51:31Shawn Ryan?

  Do you wish that flood would have never happened?

• 4:51:37Speaker 04

  No, because we ended up

• 4:51:41Speaker 04

  at my best friend's house,

• 4:51:44Speaker 04

  and her mother had just bought four boxes of Girl Scout cookies, and I ate them all.

• 4:51:53Speaker 04

  In my sleep.

• 4:51:56Speaker 04

  To this day, she tells me so.

• 4:52:00Speaker 04

  No, I wouldn't have changed it. How boring.

• 4:52:10Speaker 04

  How boring.

• 4:52:13Speaker 04

  I'd much rather, what is it, that line in Parenthood where the grandmother stands up and she's talking about the roller coaster and how

• 4:52:23Speaker 04

  going on the carousel, she talks about the difference. Do you know what I'm talking about? There's a beautiful moment in the movie where she talks about, and it just goes round and round. But the roller coaster scares you to death. And she talks about all of it, and it's such a great part because it would have been so boring for me. I love high energy and but I do love the simplicity too, so I'm gonna work more on that. That's my goal. As I have my birthday, is to find the simpler things, and Kalia is helping me do that.

• 4:53:05Shawn Ryan?

  Good.

• 4:53:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 4:53:09Shawn Ryan?

  You wanna end this with a prayer?

• 4:53:10Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 4:53:12Shawn Ryan?

  You wanna say it?

• 4:53:17Speaker 04

  I do. I do, actually.

• 4:53:22Speaker 04

  Lord Jesus, thank you for this opportunity to be fully present.

• 4:53:29Speaker 04

  Thank you for this show. It's doing great things. I'm just so grateful that I could be a part of the today. Thank you for all the people in this building and all their gifts. Thank you for the truth, the hard truth.

• 4:53:48Speaker 04

  Thank you for the opportunity to heal and to spend more time with you.

• 4:53:55Speaker 04

  Thank you for

• 4:53:58Speaker 04

  my daughter, her name is Grace. Thank you for your grace and your mercy. Thank you that we live in the greatest country in the world.

• 4:54:09Speaker 04

  And

• 4:54:11Speaker 04

  thank you for the opportunity to sit here and

• 4:54:16Speaker 04

  to be willing to be vulnerable. I know that you'll honor that. I believe, I believe, I continue to believe. Thank you for my dear friend, Shawn. And thank you, Lord, for the opportunity to reach many people out there and to help in any way we can. We are servants, and we thank you for the opportunity to use our voices and to have choices.

• 4:54:47Speaker 04

  And above all else, thank you for your son. Or thank you for being the son who died for all of us so that we could be free and live forever and eternity. Amen.

• 4:55:04Shawn Ryan?

  Amen.

• 4:55:09Speaker 04

  You're now doing that.

• 4:55:14Shawn Ryan?

  Why don't I?

• 4:55:17Shawn Ryan?

  I just wanna pray for you and and your husband, and your family, and your granddaughter and your daughter. Keep your sons safe.

• 4:55:28Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 4:55:30Shawn Ryan?

  Keep you guys safe on your tour.

• 4:55:33Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 4:55:34Shawn Ryan?

  And I just wanna pray that

• 4:55:39Shawn Ryan?

  that our talk today can help parents who are struggling with a with a child with addiction and

• 4:55:48Shawn Ryan?

  kids who are

• 4:55:53Shawn Ryan?

  having to grow up way too fast because of absent parents and

• 4:55:58Shawn Ryan?

  people that are trying to overcome loved ones

• 4:56:04Shawn Ryan?

  who've committed suicide and

• 4:56:06Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 4:56:07Shawn Ryan?

  any of the other hardships that we talked about. And I just wanna say thank you to you for being so vulnerable and courageous and open. And I love you.

• 4:56:19Speaker 04

  I love you too, friend.

• 4:56:22Shawn Ryan?

  Amen.

• 4:56:23Speaker 04

  Amen.

• 4:56:26Speaker 04

  Yay, we did it.

• 4:56:44Shawn Ryan?

  No matter where you're watching The Sean Ryan Show from, if you get anything out of this at all, anything, please like, comment, and subscribe. And most importantly, share this everywhere you possibly can. And if you're feeling extra generous, head to Apple Podcasts and Spotify and leave us a review.

• 4:57:07Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.