#331 Scott Payne - FBI Undercover Agent Reveals the Most Disturbing Cases of His Career

Scott Payne is a retired FBI Special Agent who spent twenty-eight years in law enforcement investigating drug trafficking organizations, human traffickers, outlaw motorcycle clubs, gangs, public corruption, and domestic terrorists. He served as the primary undercover agent on dozens of operations, including infiltrations of the Outlaws Motorcycle Club and The Base, a violent neo-Nazi accelerationist group. Payne also served on an FBI SWAT team and trained agents in firearms, tactics, active-shooter response, and undercover operations. He is the New York Times bestselling author of Code Name: Pale Horse: How I Went Undercover to Expose America’s Nazis. Privacy Isn't Paranoia. It's Protection. Download Glacier - https://srs.site/glacierapp Website - https://theglacierapp.com Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: Visit https://drinkag1.com/SRS to get a FREE AG1 Pro Yeti Shaker in your AG1 Pro Welcome Kit Try ZipRecruiter for FREE today at https://ziprecruiter.com/SRS and meet great candidates who’ll go the extra step for your job. Don’t sleep on [@ultrapouches]. New customers get 15% Off with code SRS at https://takeultra.com! #UltraPouches #ad Go to https://moinkbox.com/SRS to get free chicken wings in every box for a year as long as you're a paying customer. Get 30% off your first subscription order at https://armra.com/srs or enter code SRS at checkout. Go to https://helixsleep.com/SRS for up to 30% off. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you! Scott Payne Links: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/scottpaynebigcountry Book - https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Code-Name-Pale-Horse/Scott-Payne/9781668032916 Website - scottpaynebigcountry.com X - https://x.com/Scott_D_Payne Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 0:34Shawn Ryan?

  Scott Payne.

• 0:36Speaker 02

  Sir.

• 0:36Shawn Ryan?

  Welcome to the show, man.

• 0:38Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me.

• 0:39Shawn Ryan?

  Thank you for coming.

• 0:40Speaker 02

  Finally.

• 0:42Speaker 02

  Finally. I feel like The Rock. Finally, the Scott is on the Sean Ryan Show.

• 0:48Shawn Ryan?

  Man, I've been pumped for this.

• 0:50Speaker 02

  Well, thanks, man. I am too.

• 0:52Shawn Ryan?

  Let me, uh, start you out with an introduction here.

• 0:55Speaker 02

  All right.

• 0:57Shawn Ryan?

  Here we go. Scott Payne, your retired FBI undercover agent who spent more than two decades infiltrating drug traffickers, outlaw motorcycle clubs, human traffickers, and violent extremist organizations. Over the course of your FBI career, you led dozens of undercover operations as the primary agent, when most agents, at the time, might lead only a handful. Last year, you became a New York Times bestselling author with the release of your memoir, Codename Pale Horse. Welcome to the show.

• 1:32Speaker 02

  Thanks, man.

• 1:33Shawn Ryan?

  My pleasure. So a couple of things to knock out here real quick. Everybody gets a gift.

• 1:38Speaker 02

  Uh-huh.

• 1:41Speaker 02

  Nice. Oh.

• 1:43Shawn Ryan?

  Vigilantly gummy bears.

• 1:45Speaker 02

  Perfect. Excellent.

• 1:47Shawn Ryan?

  Candy. There's no funny business in them, other than a bunch of sugar and, you know, other shit that's...

• 1:52Speaker 02

  The yellow, what is it? Yellow?

• 1:53Shawn Ryan?

  Yellow five, yeah. It's probably in there.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  It's probably in there, yeah.

• 1:57Shawn Ryan?

  But, uh, and then, uh, we got a Patreon account. They've been with me since the beginning, when I started this thing in my attic, and it was just me and my wife. We couldn't make any damn money.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09Shawn Ryan?

  And, uh, they've been here with us ever since then, all the way up to now. So they're the reason I get to sit down with you today.

• 2:15Speaker 02

  Excellent.

• 2:16Shawn Ryan?

  And, uh, so one of the things I do is, um, I offer them the opportunity to ask every single guest a question.

• 2:24Shawn Ryan?

  So here we go. This is from Ron Soranetto. Sorrentino, excuse me. Scott, working undercover and dealing with the world's... with, excuse me. Scott, working undercover and dealing with the worst of, of the worst the world has to offer. Was there a time when you wanted to stop or you felt you were in too deep?

• 2:46Speaker 02

  Hmm. Um. I don't think so off the top of my head, but there's some other things I could say about that. Sometimes it's tough to realize when it's time to pull out. You know, it's like pull chocks and say, hey, we've got everything we need. This is too dangerous, whatever. Um, but, uh, yeah. He said worst of the worst, and what was he asking?

• 3:09Shawn Ryan?

  He said, was there a time when you wanted to stop or you felt you were in too deep?

• 3:14Speaker 02

  Okay. Uh, as far as a time I wanted to stop, um, sometimes my... we'll probably talk about it, but my, uh, my body told me it was time to stop. I didn't want to stop mentally, but my body said, you're done. Um, and it's some of the, like, anything to do with the child stuff, the, yeah, the pedophiles and stuff and picking those. Uh, yeah, I want out. I can't, like, I've trained agents. I've been their training agent, and they were working that stuff. As an undercover coordinator, I might be helping and, and, and helping them on the covert side, but as far as working that violation and looking at that stuff daily, I can't.

• 3:57Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's not me. Now, I've been hired. I've been undercover, and a pedophile hired me to kill the kid. He molested. Um, you know?

• 4:06Shawn Ryan?

  What?

• 4:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was happy to do that one. I'm like, yeah. Let's get you, buddy. Time to go to jail.

• 4:12Shawn Ryan?

  He hired you to kill the kid he molested?

• 4:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's actually in a bad plan, as far as murder for hires go that I've been a part of. Um, he knew that he was gonna do bad in prison. So while he was in jail in San Antonio, Texas, he solicited, uh, a gang member to help him find somebody that could murder this kid. Well, uh, maybe the general public doesn't know it, but in jail, there's all sharks, and they're looking for blood in the water. What I mean by that is, if you can get credit for something and shorten your time, as soon as you get that information, you're on the phone calling your lawyer and saying, hey, I got something good. And that's how we kind of found out. But yeah, I went in and met the guy. Only did two meetings. But, um, I met him, showed him a picture of the kid, make sure it was one. And, uh, he's greedy.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  He, he actually, I kind of giggled because it caught me off guard. But, uh, he, when we're talking about murdering the kid, he, uh, he said, yeah, and I'd like you to kill the rest of his family too. And they're like in Wisconsin. And I'm like, well, hang on, let's, let's deal with one at a time. But I'm not afraid to travel. You know, let's talk about money and stuff, but yeah.

• 5:18Shawn Ryan?

  What does something like that go for?

• 5:20Speaker 02

  Oh, it's nothing, it's not like TV. I, I mean, I've known some people. For me, to see somebody get $100,000 to murder somebody, that's, that was more TV stuff. I've known a couple who've done that highfalutin stuff, maybe like at cartel level or something, but I never saw it. Mine were two grand, 10 grand.

• 5:39Shawn Ryan?

  Fucking serious?

• 5:40Speaker 02

  No, that's, yeah.

• 5:41Shawn Ryan?

  $2,000?

• 5:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yep. Or it'll be like, um, there'll be like, hey, uh, you murder them, there's a $100,000 insurance policy. When we get that $100,000, we'll give you 12. You know, or something like that. Whatever you come up with. But of course, I'm, I'm like, you, you want me to go kill somebody based on your word? That you're gonna give me money after you get the settlement? No, you gotta give something up front, so.

• 6:07Shawn Ryan?

  Holy shit. I never would have thought it'd be that cheap.

• 6:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:11Shawn Ryan?

  Especially here in the States.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:14Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. Damn. That's fucking crazy, man.

• 6:19Speaker 02

  But a lot of them are criminals for a reason.

• 6:20Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 6:21Speaker 02

  You know, they're not...

• 6:22Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  So sometimes it's not the smartest person you're dealing with, but yeah.

• 6:27Shawn Ryan?

  Good point.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  You know? Who's gonna kill somebody for two? I mean, I don't know. Weird. Weird.

• 6:38Shawn Ryan?

  Follow-on question.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 6:40Shawn Ryan?

  What was your everyday carry?

• 6:42Speaker 02

  Uh, the Bureau would only let you carry the, the baby Glock.

• 6:47Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 6:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. It used to, and the FBI, they had a personally-owned weapon program. And as the years went on, the... if, if you had a personally-owned weapon, it still has to go to Quantico. The firearms people there have to go through it. You gotta send it in with four mags. They make sure they test it just like they test an FBI weapon. So it has to pass that. Well, it gets to a point where there's so many different weapons out there. All the guys at the firearms unit that are, that are tinkering with it, they're like, dude, I don't want to work on this gun that's... So they just narrowed it down to the baby Glock. But me, what I carry now, my everyday carry is, uh... well, first of all, in the Bureau, my everyday carry was a Glock 22 in the beginning, and then it was the Glock 17.

• 7:27Speaker 02

  Um, but now my EDC is a, um, Sig P365 XL.

• 7:33Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, no shit?

• 7:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:35Shawn Ryan?

  Right on.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. I said, I did like the way, because I got bigger hands, I did like the way the, uh, the Springfield XDS felt. But, I mean, it's like Voodoo. I, I put, I put the... I mean, I understand it, but I put the P365 XL with 17 rounds and one in the chamber next to my full-size Glock with 17 rounds and one in the chamber. And I'm like, how do you fit?

• 8:02Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  That's like, I don't get it.

• 8:04Shawn Ryan?

  How long you been carrying that Sig?

• 8:06Speaker 02

  Uh, since before I retired.

• 8:08Shawn Ryan?

  Right on.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  Yes, I retired, uh, five years ago. Yeah, June 30th of 21.

• 8:13Shawn Ryan?

  Congratulations.

• 8:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:15Shawn Ryan?

  Welcome to the civilian world.

• 8:16Speaker 02

  Right.

• 8:17Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I got you a present. I got you another present. But, uh, hold on, let me grab an air.

• 8:26Shawn Ryan?

  You seen these?

• 8:27Speaker 02

  No.

• 8:28Shawn Ryan?

  You haven't seen these? That's the...

• 8:31Speaker 02

  Is that the 320?

• 8:32Shawn Ryan?

  That's, no, that's the Sig. P211 GTO with the new optic on there. So I got a friend over at Sig, maybe you've heard of him. His name's Jason. And, uh, he's a big fan of yours. He was like, he got...

• 8:45Speaker 02

  Are you serious?

• 8:46Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, man.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  You're serious?

• 8:48Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 8:50Speaker 02

  This is so awesome, man.

• 8:52Shawn Ryan?

  Maybe we can go, uh, break that bad boy in out back here. You know, I got a range right out the back.

• 8:58Speaker 02

  I saw, I saw when I rode, holy cow.

• 9:02Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, I think you're gonna like that. It's got that compensator up front, shoots super flat, it's got the brand new optic on it.

• 9:10Shawn Ryan?

  I'm having a brain fart. I can't remember how many rounds it holds. I think, I think it's twenty one, but we'll find out.

• 9:17Speaker 02

  It's never enough.

• 9:23Shawn Ryan?

  It's never enough.

• 9:24Speaker 02

  Obviously, man, this is unbelievable.

• 9:26Shawn Ryan?

  You're gonna love it.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Oh, it feels so good. It's like, only like a glove. Oh, yeah. I'm just gonna start wearing it right here. It's not the most tactical place, but you know, on a chain.

• 9:39Shawn Ryan?

  Like a bear gun?

• 9:40Speaker 02

  This is amazing, yeah.

• 9:41Shawn Ryan?

  Right on, man.

• 9:42Speaker 02

  Amazing.

• 9:43Shawn Ryan?

  Well, hey, we want to do a life story on you.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 9:46Shawn Ryan?

  And, uh, all the way from childhood up to today.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  Let's do it.

• 9:50Shawn Ryan?

  You ready?

• 9:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:51Shawn Ryan?

  All right. Where'd you grow up?

• 9:53Speaker 02

  Greenville, South Carolina. The Greenville.

• 9:56Shawn Ryan?

  The Greenville, South Carolina.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:58Shawn Ryan?

  What were you into as a kid?

• 9:59Speaker 02

  Uh, sports. Sports, definitely. Um, I laugh. Uh, I played basketball. The basketball league at the Baptist church. The Baptist church basketball league, still to this day, me and my high school buddies, we'd laugh. That was some of the most violent. Those Baptists, I mean, cussing, screaming. It's like, man, it's, it's church. What are we doing? You're like, you're throwing elbows, get him, get him, you know? But, uh, sports. And then, I mean, my first seven years, I went to a Christian school. And then I switched into public school system. Uh, that transition, ooh, I was not too good at peer pressure. I wasn't good at all. I almost got expelled, like, in eighth grade for right off the bat.

• 10:44Speaker 02

  Showing some nude pictures for a class project. It was not smart, but it was a dare, you know? That's what I mean. That's what I mean. Maybe, maybe the public school system, uh, I was not desensitized to. And it would be like, uh, you know, I dare you to go up there and do this. And I knew it was wrong. And I'm like, I'm not doing that. I'll get in trouble. Chicken. I'm not a chicken. I'm a... And I'd just go up there and do it, you know? And next thing you know, I'm sitting in the principal's office when my dad and mom come, and they're like, what did you do? And I'm like, well, I showed this picture for propaganda for the class. Technically, what I showed was correct. It was propaganda. It just wasn't. I wasn't, I was, I was a bad boy.

• 11:27Shawn Ryan?

  What'd your parents do?

• 11:28Speaker 02

  Uh, my, my dad had a landscaping company. So he built it. Um, in that time, he had, uh, this is before your Lowe's and Walmarts and Home Depots and stuff like that, but, um, it was, uh, he had one of the top three largest landscaping companies in upstate South Carolina. Yeah.

• 11:47Shawn Ryan?

  Right on.

• 11:48Speaker 02

  So that's what I grew up in. And I think that's where I got a lot of my, uh, work ethic. Um, my mom, uh, she definitely a workaholic, a hard go-getter, smart, book smart. Um, dad, hard worker, dropped out in the 10th grade, street smart.

• 12:07Shawn Ryan?

  Gotcha.

• 12:07Speaker 02

  Um, but my dad would drop me off. The bigger I got, the older I got, the more stuff I had to do, you know? Like now, okay, now you can carry this. Now you can do that. Till it gets to a point to where I'm getting dropped off on the job site. But here I am, just a teenager, playing football. And I'm working for my dad's company. And you got all these grown men looking at you like, oh, you know, silver spoon, you know? Like, they, my nose is itchy, sorry. They're like, uh, oh, silver spoon, you know? And these, these are older dudes, full beards, drinking whiskey in their coffee in the morning, smoking filterless cigarettes. So the only thing I could think to do was just outwork them.

• 12:49Speaker 02

  And that's what I tried to do. I'm like, I don't, I don't want you to think I'm getting, getting by because my dad's the owner of the company.

• 12:57Shawn Ryan?

  No shit.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm gonna try to outwork you.

• 13:00Shawn Ryan?

  Not too many kids like that.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  No. And I'd just look at them, I'd be like, you know, we can get this job done quicker if you stop all those cigarette breaks.

• 13:09Shawn Ryan?

  No shit. How old were you when you adopted, when you adopted that out?

• 13:12Speaker 02

  Probably sixteen, seventeen, somewhere in there. Yeah.

• 13:14Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then, uh, you, it's, you don't think about it then, but you look back at your life, or like doing the book, I'm reading, you're writing all this stuff, and you're like, man, I forgot about that. Oh, that's crazy, you know? But you can look back and see, oh, this is where I started forming that mentality. So, yeah, I, uh, grew up in a Christian home. Musicians, singers, um, and, you know, there, there were times where, like, my family would be singing at another church, and we'd go visit that church, and they would sing their sing and play, or it'd be a startup church, and we'd go help open it and play. Um, so that's kind of, I just remember a lot of weekends going over to my aunt and uncle's house and, and all of us, uh,

• 13:57Speaker 02

  I mean, the kids are running around eating ice cream and playing, but I just remember them in there playing.

• 14:01Shawn Ryan?

  Right on.

• 14:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:02Shawn Ryan?

  Are you a Christian?

• 14:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, Christ follower.

• 14:04Shawn Ryan?

  Today?

• 14:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:05Shawn Ryan?

  Right on.

• 14:06Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Yeah, I, uh, um, I actually, I'm a musician as well. I play at Faith Promise. I did, I did three services Sunday.

• 14:14Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, right on, yeah.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  Got to be there at six AM.

• 14:17Shawn Ryan?

  Right. Right on.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  On stage at six AM, ready to go. Yeah.

• 14:22Shawn Ryan?

  Brothers, sisters?

• 14:23Speaker 02

  Uh, no, I'm single. Single child. Had stepbrothers and stepsisters, but it was later on, like, I was already a teenager. So, I mean, we connected a little bit, but not like growing up.

• 14:33Shawn Ryan?

  What were you into in high school?

• 14:35Speaker 02

  Uh, sports again and a musician. I, uh, uh, played football. That was my main sport. Started lifting weights a lot more. Um, and then, uh, probably eighth grade, I started picking up musical instruments. And just because I was watching, and then I would learn. I taught myself how to play the drums. Um, uh, but I, I started on bass. And, and then one day I went and grabbed my mom's acoustic guitar, and I did a full chord. And when I did it, I was like, oh, I like that. And then it's over the years, I've gotten better and better and, you know?

• 15:10Shawn Ryan?

  Right on. Well, I think I read somewhere that you got into Satanism or something.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, you did, did you?

• 15:18Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, I think I read that somewhere. How do you go from, how do you go from, how do you, how do you go in from being in a good Christian Baptist family playing at churches to getting into that?

• 15:30Speaker 02

  Uh, well, it, again, looking back, I can see what happened. Um, my parents got divorced when I was about thirteen, or it all started around thirteen. Um, but they would, I just remember them asking me, they'd come up, they're like, hey, are you okay with this? You all right with this? And I'd be like, yeah, I don't care. I don't care. Actually, in my head, I was saying, I don't give an F. You know, in my head, I'm like, I don't give an F. But, uh, that, I don't give an F, started going into everything that I chose to do. And I had a friend introduce me to witchcraft and Satanism. And this is in high school, in the eighties. And, uh, you start studying Aleister Crowley and, and, uh, like, books on

• 16:14Speaker 02

  spells and witchcraft and then, uh,

• 16:19Speaker 02

  signing pacts with the devil, things like that. And I, and I went, yeah, I'm an idiot. Actually, actually, I'm a very blessed person. Because there was a lot of people praying for me during that, and I didn't know it at the time. And they weren't sure what was going on with me. But I was being prayed over. And I'd gone to, for, for the listeners, they may not even remember a VCR tape, but you know, when you could go to Blockbuster or Pick a Flick and rent movies, uh, please rewind, be kind, rewind.

• 16:46Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah, I remember that.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  Um, but I, I would go to the horror section, and I'd go A to Z and watch every single movie they had. And, uh, I started doing like these little skits, if you want to call them that, where like I would pretend to talk like Freddy Krueger, but worse. And, and I would act like a demon, and I was, I was an idiot. I was losing my friends. I had a bad attitude. And I'm talking about my friends that, in the book, I put in there, we called ourselves the Brew Crew, but we spelled it like Motley Crue. And that was our high school group, and we're still tight to this day. Uh, a matter of fact, I'll be seeing them in a couple of weeks. But, uh, they were starting to move away from me. They're like, man, you gotta let that stuff go. We love you, but we can't, you can't put up with this stuff. And, uh, I would do, I was just evil. Like, I'm not a huge hunter.

• 17:34Speaker 02

  Um, I will hunt if I need to. For some reason, I don't, I don't have a problem hunting birds and stuff, and I love fishing. But

• 17:42Speaker 02

  during that phase, I shot everything that came into my yard, and I was out of cruelty. I was going through some, I was going through some stuff, right?

• 17:50Shawn Ryan?

  What was the draw?

• 17:53Speaker 02

  Evil, power.

• 17:55Shawn Ryan?

  Power?

• 17:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:57Shawn Ryan?

  You got power out of that?

• 17:58Speaker 02

  Well, you think you do. You see what I'm saying? You're like, it's, it can, it can corrupt. It can corrupt. And...

• 18:08Speaker 02

  It's a lot like what I, what I saw in my law enforcement career. You just want to belong. You want to fit in somewhere. And yeah, I was, I was pretty evil. So that's really why I don't do it now. I don't have a problem. I have roommates, my best friends do it. We'll cook it up, whatever. But as far as me pricing it out and learning what all I gotta do, I'm like, I'll just go to Kruger. I'll just get, I was about there. But I was doing things like I had a Volkswagen Bug. Oddly enough, for my first vehicle. So you gotta get that worked on at a different place, right?

• 18:41Shawn Ryan?

  I don't imagine you driving a Volkswagen Bug.

• 18:44Speaker 02

  Lot of headroom. Lot of headroom. I think it was a 1970. 1970 white, white Bug. That was my first, first vehicle. Uh, so.

• 18:55Shawn Ryan?

  No wonder you got into it. Shit.

• 18:59Speaker 02

  So you take it, the place we took the car to, to get fixed or worked on was a Christian shop. And it's openly Christian, Christian music and everything. And man, I would play like, it would be like maybe Halloween or some supposed satanic band from the eighties. And I would, I would set the cassette. Uh, so when you cranked up the car, it would be right at a very horrible, horrifying part of the song or something. And I would do that just out of pure spite and evilness. So as the story ends,

• 19:31Speaker 02

  one night I, uh, I was doing this skit. We were drinking, no hallucinogenics, nothing like that, just beer. And, uh, I, I was, I was spending the night at a house, uh, and my buddy and his girlfriend were on the bed and I was on the couch. And, uh, I was acting like a scene that I'd seen in one of the movies, where it was a demon possession. So I'm acting like my voice is fighting the demon voice. And then I would talk in the demon voice and then I would talk in my voice and be scared and be like, no, no. And at the end, it culminates, the scene culminates with me laughing like the demon because the demon wins and it's now possessed me because I saw that in the movie. And, uh,

• 20:14Speaker 02

  like again, that I don't care, that I don't give an F. I was applying it to everything.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  And as I'm laughing like the demon, I was facing the back of the couch, but as I'm laughing like the demon, I roll over. And as I roll over, what I see is like a watery image, but it's red. It's a, and it's like, you know, you can see the ripples and it's a watery image and red. And it was a demon or the devil. But it was a demon looking at me and it was smiling. His fingers were all like crooked with long fingernails. And as I was laughing, acting like I was being possessed and rolled over and saw it, he was looking at me smiling, going like this. Saying, come here. And I screamed, I screamed a very high pitched, loud scream. And from just here on the couch to hitting the light switch right there, that quick, I was pale white.

• 21:02Speaker 02

  I was pouring sweat, panting, breathing. And my buddy Ricky jumped up and he goes, what? You know, because his girlfriend screamed like, what the, and, and he goes, what is it? And I looked at him and I said, if I ever do that again, I said something to the effect of, if you have my permission, you can take a bat, crack me over the head with it. And he had been telling me, you know? But the room just got super calm and it was like it wasn't even Ricky. It was like, it was like the spirit. Looked right at me and said, because it just calmed down. He looked right at me and he went, I told you, didn't I? And I was like, yes, you did. And I didn't sleep that night. I walked to church.

• 21:39Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  I didn't have, I didn't have my car. I'd hitched a ride over and.

• 21:43Shawn Ryan?

  What did it look like?

• 21:45Speaker 02

  Huh?

• 21:45Shawn Ryan?

  What did it look like?

• 21:46Speaker 02

  Uh, the demon?

• 21:48Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 21:48Speaker 02

  Just, I saw red. So it was a red background, red image, and the demon was red. But you could see the outline of the demon and you could see the face was kind of stretched.

• 22:00Speaker 02

  And horns and just the finger, man, with this black, yeah, just looking at me smiling, saying, come here. And that was it. That was it for me and devil worshipman. I was done.

• 22:12Shawn Ryan?

  That was it, huh?

• 22:13Speaker 02

  Man. So I started. So yeah, I grew up Christian. Um, I remember when I went to get baptized and they ask you, they say, uh, so you've been saved. I said, yeah. They said, well, when were you saved? I said, which time? And they said, what do you mean, which time? I said, man, I went to a Christian school my first seven years. And like every week or every couple of weeks, they'd bring in a new preacher. And they'd go hellfire and brimstone and they'd do an altar call. I felt guilty at every one of them. I got saved every time there was a preacher that came there.

• 22:43Speaker 02

  Maybe I needed to be dunked twice. You know what I mean? He's still a little dirty. Let's put it back down.

• 22:53Shawn Ryan?

  I've been trying to simplify my routine lately, especially around training. Because when you're lifting, recovering, traveling and trying to stay consistent, it's easy to end up with a whole countertop full of different products. You all know exactly what I'm talking about. That's what I like about AG1 Pro. It brings a lot of support into one simple morning routine. You're getting the full AG1 Next Gen Foundation, plus targeted additions designed for performance, recovery, gut balance, and strength. And for me, recovery is a huge part of performance. Training is one side of it, but what you do outside of the gym matters just as much. AG1 Pro supports your body's ability to maintain lean muscle,

• 23:38Shawn Ryan?

  supports steady cellular energy production, and helps maintain gut balance and comfort. It's also NSF certified for sport, which matters because I want to know what I'm putting in my body is tested for safety and purity. So if you're trying to be more intentional about your training, recovery and daily routine, AG1 Pro is a clean way to make a pro move in the morning. Visit drinkag1.com/srs to get a free AG1 Pro Yeti Shaker in your AG1 Pro Welcome Kit. That's drinkag1.com/srs.

• 24:20Shawn Ryan?

  Pick up your phone. Look at it. Count the number of companies you've never heard of that know where you slept last night. Nobody can, and that's the point. Apps you're not even using or calling out to servers all day and all night. Reporting where you go, what you look at, and what you buy. Glacier Security DNS cuts those calls off before they connect. Not after, before. It's the same grade of protection people with clearances carry, built by the guys who used to build it for them. And you don't manage it. Open the app once, hit the button, close it.

• 24:59Shawn Ryan?

  Glacier. Download it today on the App Store. And remember, privacy isn't paranoia, it's protection.

• 25:14Shawn Ryan?

  You were interested in psychology?

• 25:16Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 25:17Shawn Ryan?

  What got you interested in that?

• 25:18Speaker 02

  Uh, great question. Actually, my parents, watching my parents go through depression. Um, watching my parents go through depression, watching, uh, uh, from my understanding as a young teenager, that they went to a doctor, a psychologist, psychiatrist, whatever. And that doctor gave advice of my dad needs to leave. For whatever reason. And I'm thinking as a kid, I'm like, what? Why would they, why? So that, and then I watched my dad suffer through depression when he was in his thirties. I saw my mom and that kind of, I don't know, it kind of got me interested. Once I saw that as, I guess, is an elective in high school? I know it would be an elective in college unless it's your major or whatever.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  But anyway, I saw those classes and I took them. And I mean, behavioral psychology, um, child psychology. I still got the books, you know, it's like I, I pull back on that when I'm talking to parents today. I'm like, listen, you need to understand the development of the brain in kids. And there's certain things they don't need to be trying to process and watch like horrific slasher flicks that look 100% real, or playing certain video games that look 100% real, you know?

• 26:33Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 26:34Speaker 02

  So.

• 26:37Speaker 02

  Cool.

• 26:38Shawn Ryan?

  Cool. What got you interested in law enforcement?

• 26:41Speaker 02

  Um, oh, I'm sorry. I'll go back on the psychology thing too.

• 26:44Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 26:45Speaker 02

  Um, trying to get a sip of coffee without burning myself.

• 26:51Speaker 02

  Good, I didn't burn myself. Um, I was waiting, you know, oh, dad gum it. It's too late for me, Sean, save yourself.

• 27:01Speaker 02

  I see the light. Uh, so psychology, I started taking it in high school and man, I really was fascinated with it. So several times in my college life, it was my major, but I ended up majoring in criminal justice and I got a minor in psych. But, um, they would, uh, they, I took six hours, two more classes, I could have got a double major. Right on. But I was, I was out. I was, when it was, when I graduated, I was done with college. Right on. So what did, what, what, uh, I mean dad's a landscaper, mom's a book smar, what? What happened to me? Yeah. What happened to you? Why, why law enforcement? Um,

• 27:39Speaker 02

  I guess

• 27:42Speaker 02

  when I was in college, I started taking electives because I was changing stuff around. I mean, at one point I had like business as a major. At one point I had like computers and that was before even Windows and stuff was out. It was just the old 1980s square. You know, font, the square font. Um, but I came across a criminal justice course and I really loved it. I loved criminology. So that's like the psychology and sociology mixed in, like studying criminals after their death, brains, you know, all kinds of forensic stuff. I loved it. Um, not so much like the business law and tort law, stuff you have to take as well, but just that whole enforcement thing. I don't know. I really took to it.

• 28:26Speaker 02

  And I was already bouncing. So as a bouncer, um, in Charleston, South Carolina, some of the places I bounced at, they had a cop would work a side job there and be outside and I just start like a sponge, man. Just started talking and the first time I went on a ride along, I was like, yeah, this is, this is what I like. This is good. Why? What happened? I don't, you know, I don't know. Uh, like I, when I was playing college ball, it's, it's very similar to this. I almost, I almost signed up for the Marine Corps, uh, but I was already in college. And I remember dropping somebody off from college, a kicker had a friend come in, uh, who was at Paris Island. Um, and I'm in Charleston, North Charleston, and

• 29:10Speaker 02

  he needed a ride back and I had a car. So I, they, they searched, long story short, uh, I, uh, drove him. I said, look, I'll drive down, but on the ride back, you're driving me back and I'm studying because I got a test the next day. So I'm at Paris Island and I had a high and tight. I was just shaved all the way up, number one, and maybe like, actually nothing all the way up. And then just a number one right there. So it kind of looked like maybe I, I should have been a marine, but I ate at the Burger King on the base and I don't know what stripes mean. I don't, you know, I'm a kid, you know? And I'm getting these looks like, why am I not saluting or something? And I'm like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do.

• 29:49Speaker 02

  I'm really not supposed to be here right now. Uh, but I remember I've always thought that, that the uniform was awesome, but I remember it was like a movie scene. The sun setting, I mean, it's breaking, it's going down. You can barely see the, what's left of the sun and you hear it.

• 30:09Speaker 02

  And you see over the crest, man, you see that flag coming and here comes the platoon. Dude, I got goosebumps right now. I was like, that's some of the coolest stuff I've ever seen. So I thought that's what I wanted to do. And I go back to college. I got everything lined up. I just got to sign my name to the dotted line. And, uh, I go back to tell my coach at college that I'm going to miss the football season and when I come back, I'm probably going to be a lot lighter.

• 30:34Speaker 02

  Probably won't be that lineman weight you're looking for. I'm probably going to be more like a, an end or something, you know, move me on out. Um, but he said, why? And I started telling him camaraderie, the discipline, the, just being a part of something bigger than yourself. And all this, and he, he was the son of a Baptist preacher. He said, son, we got that here. We're built, that's why we got the rock out there. We're building the foundation, we're building this program on the rock. And you gotta, we got dress codes, we got this and hook, line and sinker. I was as close as I got to sign it. Right on. So, uh, but yeah, the, the, the college football, um,

• 31:12Speaker 02

  that was great. That was great. I wasn't the best, you know, I had a bad attitude towards the end of my time, but it was, it really taught me a lot. Taught me a lot about team and tell you that. Yeah. I had the highest, I mean, I think I had the highest grade point average. I had a 3.8 my last two years. So I, I don't, I don't think I'm any of those smart. I just know how to take notes and I knew how the teacher talked, you know? I was good at memorizing, but, uh, I signed up, I had it set up for me to where I didn't have to go to class till like one o'clock on Tuesdays and Thursdays. So I'd go out, party, do whatever, man, sleep in, get a good workout. They had mandatory sign in for breakfast.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  And even though I didn't have to go to class till one o'clock, I had to go up there every morning and sign in before the seven, I think. And I remember talking to the coach and I was like,

• 32:01Speaker 02

  the purpose of this is to make sure that the football players are awake. You know they're up and they're going to class on time. They said, yeah, I said, I've got one of the highest grade point averages on this team and I don't have to be in class till one. Why do I have to come in here, sign?

• 32:17Speaker 02

  And that's where I learned about team. Because everybody's doing it. And I was like, wish I'd have known that. I'd have set myself up for some classes. I'm up anyway. I was looking at a class, you know? I'll just sit here and watch Days of Our Lives until class starts or something. Days of our lives? Young and the restless. Oh, man, man. That was back when we only had four channels, you know?

• 32:40Speaker 02

  The old knob. Yeah, that's it, man. You were awesome when you had the remote, remote control. That's good stuff. Color, mm. You can't hide money. So where do we go from here? Um,

• 32:56Speaker 02

  you ask why law enforcement? I guess I can go there. Yeah. So when I started taking those criminal justice courses, um, and like I said, I was already bouncing and I was getting trained by law enforcement and like pressure points and control tactics and stuff like that. We were getting certified and that kind of stuff. Even as bouncers, um, I was just getting more exposure to it and I just took to it. I don't know if it's, I've always had like a, a bully of bullies. I'm not trying to say I'm tough. I mean, you're, you're an awesome tough dude. You had all kinds of people on here. It's not a chest beating thing. It's just that I've always liked the underdog, I guess. I've always, uh, I mean, have I been a bully in my life? Yes. Do I regret it? Yes. But for the most part, I was a bully of bullies.

• 33:41Speaker 02

  Like if I saw somebody picking on somebody that, that was like, let's just say football in college. Let's just say somebody's a starter. You know, they're starting, they know they're starting. They're awesome. Um, but you got like a third stringer, third, third team, you know, they're never going to start, but they got hard and they're out there and they're trying. But you see that starter roughing up the person even after the whistle blows. Well, then maybe that's when I'm coming full speed and I'm putting, putting it in your ear hole. Nice. And I go, oh, that's my fault, man. I didn't hear the whistle blow. Sorry. Let me help you up. And then have a conversation that we can, we can do this all day, or you can quit picking on that guy, you know? That's awesome. If it's 50%, go 50%. Don't go a hundred.

• 34:27Speaker 02

  Or we'll go a hundred and then we'll see, you know?

• 34:31Speaker 02

  I like that.

• 34:33Speaker 02

  You know? I wish more people were like that. Yeah. Well, it goes with the, as, as I gotten older, it goes, everybody's, you know, warrior, warrior, now warrior's offensive, but really shepherd. Cause in my mind, I look at it like this.

• 34:48Speaker 02

  Not all warriors are shepherds. A warrior is going to go in there and get it done, whatever it takes, but not all warriors are shepherds. A she, but all shepherds are warriors. I like that. If you're a shepherd, I mean, you're out there, it's the flock. You're, you're, you're a peace officer. You're protecting. To protect and serve. It used to say it on every police car, you know? Um, that's what you are. You, you, you'll go after, you'll leave the flock to save the one.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  So what happened on the ride along? Anything? Oh, well, goodness gracious. Anything and everything was exciting to me. A car stop. Coming up to a burglar, he'd already occurred. I was, yeah, I was sucking it up. What kind of questions were you asking the guys that you were bouncing with? Uh, well, I mean, hiring standards, what is it? What's the tryout like? You know, what, how long you been in it? Cool stories, you know? I'm, I'm sure I was like everybody else. Have you ever shot anybody? You ever been shot? That's like the first question. How many people have you killed? You know, that's not what, that's not what you ask them. Don't ask them that, you know? But, uh, I loved it. And then I came out of college with that three eight average, uh, Dean's List the last two years. Um, even though I look and sound like trash, I was all right on paper, you know?

• 36:01Speaker 02

  Um, but I couldn't get a job. Everybody I went and applied with, I applied at four different places. And they said at that time, they said, man, we really, we, uh, we, they told me they liked it, that, that I was a good candidate, but they weren't hiring white men at that time. Are you serious? Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, well, that would have been good to know before I spent the last four years majoring in this. So I went to the, I went to the mall to be a mall cop and they said I was overqualified. I'm like, I'm like, bro, I'm just trying not to bounce at a strip club. You know what I mean? I'm like, this is, uh, so I ended up landing a, a security job. And here I am in a cheesy polyester uniform, walking around, turning the key, all third shift.

• 36:47Speaker 02

  The first night I was like, this isn't bad. It was like a four star hotel. You're walking around, you turn the key and that lets them know that you're hitting all your spots and you got food and it's nice. That was the first night. The next night they put me on an abandoned, well, it's abandoned on third shift, concrete plant on the intercostal waterway. And it was me, God and critters. And that was it. But it ended up being a great time. Cause I needed to do some inner soul searching. Um, I, I was heartbroken at the time. And, uh, man, it was good to be alone by myself. Well, not alone, but to be alone with God. And I would write and I would just, you know, for two months. And then I was like, okay, enough of this, you know, I'm going to go get a job and I, I bounced at a,

• 37:32Speaker 02

  uh, legitimate country club called Desperados at the time. Uh, uh, it's not there anymore, but it was, at that time is the largest dance floor in South Carolina. They have bouncers at country clubs? Oh, yeah. I did not. Well, I mean, when I say country club, I don't mean like golf country club. I mean, Oh, you mean a country bar? Country bar. Yeah. Sorry. Country bar. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. Bouncer to the country club. I was like, wait, what?

• 37:58Speaker 02

  Full contact golf. Yeah.

• 38:01Shawn Ryan?

  You got a guy with a sweater vest over here acting up.

• 38:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know, right? Yeah.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a, so, so I, I get a job at Desperados and I'm bouncing and I'm just biding my time. And then, then I got the call from Greenville County Sheriff's Office, which is the hometown I grew up in.

• 38:19Shawn Ryan?

  Right on.

• 38:19Speaker 02

  And I went back and I went to the academy.

• 38:23Speaker 02

  And then, uh, yeah, 93, I went to the academy and came out and started in uniform.

• 38:31Shawn Ryan?

  How was it?

• 38:31Speaker 02

  Oh, loved it. Loved it. My, I wouldn't, really wouldn't mind going back right now.

• 38:36Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 38:37Speaker 02

  At 55, yeah. Hey, you, cause once you pull out there, that's your office, you're in your car. You're going out and answering calls, hopping calls. Um, but if I do bond back in, I'm gonna have to go full circle because I bounced. I was a cop. I was a fed. So if I bond back in and I'm a cop, whenever that's done, I gotta at least bounce for like 30 minutes.

• 39:00Shawn Ryan?

  Where would you bounce?

• 39:01Speaker 02

  I don't know. Uh, maybe I'd ask Cotton Eye Joe's. That's, that's a, that's a country bar in Knoxville, Tennessee. Maybe I'd ask them, I don't know.

• 39:09Shawn Ryan?

  Right on. You got any good stories from bouncing?

• 39:11Speaker 02

  Oh, my goodness, tons.

• 39:13Shawn Ryan?

  Let's hear some.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh, so I, I kinda, I kinda said it a second ago, but, uh, when I first started bouncing, I was bouncing in gentlemen's clubs, which is an oxymoron because I've never seen any gentleman in there. In any of them. And neither was I then. I was living in the flesh, as they say back then.

• 39:37Speaker 02

  But, and this is coming from a guy who's had all girls, you know, all girls, uh, girl dogs, everything's female, you know? Lot of estrogen in the, in the household. But, uh, yeah, I bounced there and I mean, it would be like two bouncers. And really that's where I started learning my gift to gab and, and, and verbal judo, as some people call it. Because if you go up and you've only got two bouncers, and let's just say there's two bachelor parties in there, 15 a party. You gonna take on 30 people? Are you gonna go up and push and go, hey, stop what you're doing or spin them around? Are you gonna go, hey, buddy, you're having a good time, but listen, you can't do that. Boss is gonna get mad, they're gonna want me to kick you out. All right, baseball, one strike, two strike, three strikes, you're out.

• 40:21Speaker 02

  Some people are obviously already out by the time you get to them, but, uh, yeah, uh,

• 40:27Speaker 02

  the Hells Angels would come to the bar. Uh, I, I bounced at frequently. And, uh, I remember being in some knockdown dragouts, being on the bottom of the pile and I, and I, and I'm hit. Every time I'm getting hit, I'm hitting the dude at the bottom of the pile. Pile starts getting lighter and, uh, you're looking, it's the Hells Angels and they're bringing, they're picking everybody and they're carrying them out and whipping the trash out of them. And I'm like, I, I looked out and when I looked, the last thing I saw was they had one dude, uh, one Hells Angel was holding the dude's head on the motorcycle seat and the other Hells Angel was coming up, kicking him right in the face. I just sat back up, I said, that'd be a $3 cover charge. Come on in.

• 41:05Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 41:06Speaker 02

  So I got, I got that kind of exposure and then you'd be in there bouncing and it's like another bouncer, two bouncers, fight breaks out. Where were you? I was calling 911. The bartender can do that, man. The DJ can do that. You're supposed to, where were you? I was stocking the cooler.

• 41:24Shawn Ryan?

  Stocking.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  I'm starting to get this Clark Kent Superman thing or this, you know? How come they're never in the same place at the same time? Yeah, it was good. And then, um, I moved on, like I said, uh, and then bouncing at Desperados, there were some, there were some knockdown dragouts there. There was one, we call it, I think, uh, Charleston County referred to it as the Clampits. Cause they ended up being a whole family. It was after a Tanya Tucker concert and, uh, we had sectors, earpieces, we'd call it out. Uh, it was really cool because the DJ's booth was up in the roof. Like you had to climb the ladder to get in it so they could see all across the bar.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  And, uh, it was two, an older guy and a younger guy were kinda getting verbal, a little pushy next to the mechanical bull. And, uh, my buddy went to break it up. What we didn't realize is that was a father and son. And then here comes mom with the stiletto, bust my buddy's head wide open. Hey, I hear him say, get this bitch off me. And he's, he raises up and as he raises up, blood is just pouring down his face. Now, I was young, didn't have as much control, not near as much fight training. So when I saw my best friend bleeding like that, I was like, that shark. You know, that black, I was like, what? Choke slamming, bam, we're fighting. You choke somebody out, they drop, then they wake back up and they're fighting again. And it was like, it lasted like 40 minutes.

• 42:45Shawn Ryan?

  Holy shit.

• 42:46Speaker 02

  Clearly we didn't know, I mean,

• 42:49Speaker 02

  I'll just say the fight skills weren't as good, you know? We could have probably ended it quicker, but to get them to the door to Charleston County and then everybody got arrested. But it ended up being like, I mean, I think it was the son, the dad, the mom, there was a sister, a girlfriend, there was a wife. I got kicked square. That's the first time I've ever been solidly kicked in the testicles. I mean, it was spot on. It was, it, it was right on. And I'd always heard up to that point in like self-defense training and stuff. It, I would hear instructors telling women specifically, listen, you can kick, kick them in the nuts, but if their adrenaline's going, it might be better unless you're doing like multiple strikes, like some Krav Maga, like we're doing multiple and we're not just hitting them more.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  We're coming bam, bam, bam, bam, bam to create distance and stuff. But I'd always heard, you know, if your adrenaline's flowing, it might not work. To which every guy would say, it's gonna work. Guess what? It didn't work because the adrenaline was flowing so bad. When she kicked me, I was, I was straddled trying to pick her up and she was in, she kicked it. And I mean, I felt my stomach pull and not, and just start pulling down. But because the adrenaline was so much, uh, it didn't, it did not stop me. Um, now let's just say an hour or two later, yeah, I was, over there with the frozen peas, you know?

• 44:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think I need to go to the hospital. But yeah, it was, it was good times. It was really good times. Um, and then I got hired and became a cop in uniform patrol. Man, it was great. Um, I learned a lot. Uh, but after three years, I'm made vice narcotics investigator. And that was, that was when the bug, that's when, that's when I go and I get certified at the state level, uh, undercover techniques. And that's the first time I do a drug buy. Um, at least for law enforcement. Cause when I was younger, I did buy drugs, but it was for me. Uh, I had bought dope before, um, but yeah, now you're being trained by, I'm looking at,

• 44:56Speaker 02

  I'm looking at people in the unit and I'm just like a kid, like I said, in the candy store. I'm just trying to be a sponge because there were some cool, cool dudes in that narcotics unit. And I'm just trying to learn. And, uh, apparently I didn't learn fast enough because I did, I did get, you can't pick your own nickname, you know what I mean? But I got the nickname Little Bus.

• 45:17Shawn Ryan?

  How'd that happen?

• 45:18Speaker 02

  I guess I wasn't learning fast enough.

• 45:22Speaker 02

  I would like to say it could have been some of the training, but, uh, yeah. And then I, then I graduated to bus man, you know? And then I switched to, uh, I switched over from Northern Command Narcotics. I went back to uniform for a little bit because of a snafu with a, a former supervisor. Um, and then I went to Southern Command Narcotics and that's where I was at until I, uh, got picked up by the FBI.

• 45:46Shawn Ryan?

  What was the training like?

• 45:48Speaker 02

  Uh, the training at FBI or?

• 45:51Shawn Ryan?

  Before.

• 45:52Speaker 02

  Uh, it was awesome. Um, I mean, the police academy, I went through, you know, I just thought about that. I went through the police academy during the winter months and I went through the FBI academy in the winter months. I guess that's my time. But, uh, always snow on the ground.

• 46:05Shawn Ryan?

  When you got undercover, I mean, did they?

• 46:07Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm sorry, the undercover training.

• 46:08Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 46:08Speaker 02

  Uh, it was good. I mean, it's a one week school. Um, you're probably not going as in-depth, but probably focusing more on like quick buys, quick scenarios because

• 46:19Speaker 02

  think of it this way, if you're a cop, and let's just look at that situation. I've been a cop for three years. Now all of a sudden I'm a narcotics officer in the county that I live in, where I've arrested a lot of people for three years. There's only so many ways you can do your facial hair or grow your hair or change your clothes and cars before you start getting known. Um, so you're doing quick stuff, like rolling up, buying a crack rock, driving around for 15 minutes, come back, buy another crack rock. Um, hit, uh, you know, go and, and buy weed and stuff like that. And we were also vice. So we were working gambling, was illegal in South Carolina, uh, and prostitution. So.

• 47:00Shawn Ryan?

  Do you have a favorite?

• 47:04Speaker 02

  I'm working dope.

• 47:05Shawn Ryan?

  Working dope?

• 47:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:06Shawn Ryan?

  Why?

• 47:07Speaker 02

  Working, uh, just the, at that level, it was just a thrill. Uh, just, I mean, it's fast paced. We're jumped out, we're doing jump outs, roll up in the hood, high drug trafficking area, whatever. If there's a high drug trafficking area, it's been reported on a lot, roll up, jump out, chase. The jump out boys, five oh, coming around the corner.

• 47:26Shawn Ryan?

  So would you go after, are you going after low level street dealers? You're going after?

• 47:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, it may be. Now, you try to work your way up, but think about it, as far as like going long-term undercover. If you're a task force officer and you're working with the feds and they can put you somewhere, yeah. But I would say it's gonna be tough, short of maybe like New York City. Where it's so populated, or maybe Miami, but it's gonna be tough, I think, to go deep undercover. Where you've been known as a law enforcement officer. Now, when I moved to Tennessee, nobody knew me. Um, I'd only been here six months before I went full-time undercover, um, in a rural county in East Tennessee. Um, I did that because, yeah, nobody knew me here. But once I, once that case is done, yeah, I'm not, now I'm overt Scott Payne and, and I'm probably not gonna be doing any undercover

• 48:16Speaker 02

  in East Tennessee.

• 48:17Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, I've heard it's damn near impossible to do undercover work now, at this point in time.

• 48:22Speaker 02

  It's getting harder and harder.

• 48:23Shawn Ryan?

  With facial recognition and all that kinda shit.

• 48:25Speaker 02

  Exactly. I mean, with the, I mean, just picture facial recognition and say, I've got three different identities.

• 48:34Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 48:34Speaker 02

  But I show up and then, or the, or the system's gonna catch it. It's gonna be like, hey, this is the same dude. He got three different names, you know, something like that.

• 48:42Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 48:43Speaker 02

  Um, or going overseas.

• 48:46Shawn Ryan?

  That's, yeah, that's where I've heard that.

• 48:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:48Shawn Ryan?

  You're not even gonna get a pseudo passport or?

• 48:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, imagine.

• 48:52Shawn Ryan?

  Names or any of that.

• 48:52Speaker 02

  I thought about that when I retired. I'm like, I go overseas, what if I did, I mean, I didn't, but what if I did go covertly in the past? And now I'm over there and that thing hits and says, oh, that's Scott Callaway, and I'm standing there, Scott Payne, you know? How do I explain that? Pretty sure I'm getting secondary.

• 49:08Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 49:10Shawn Ryan?

  So what kinda stuff are they teaching you?

• 49:12Speaker 02

  Um.

• 49:14Shawn Ryan?

  Is it all on, on the job training or?

• 49:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it's like good, good operational security, um, probably for that stuff, it's gonna be more like how to do a controlled buy. So, in other words, I'm gonna be wired up. So, uh, it, for me, it goes hand to hand in operating sources. Um, cause somebody's gonna surveil you, we're gonna cover you to go in there, we're gonna be listening. You're getting the evidence, you're coming back out, and then I'm turning it over. Um, we got stuff like that. And then you learn some laws, and then you might get the technical, technical surveillance school, they kinda go together. Now I'm learning how to wire stuff up. Now I'm learning, like, I'm, I'm building coolers and putting cameras in them and, you know, stuff like that. But that was ninety-three. I mean, technology now, who knows what they can do? You know, a lot of people think we can do stuff we can't anyway, cause of TV, you know?

• 50:03Speaker 02

  They think I've got like a, they think in this cross, I've got a listening device, and I'm like, that's awful small. How many hours I'm gonna get recorded on that thing?

• 50:13Shawn Ryan?

  I always notice when somebody goes the extra step. It does not have to be some huge thing. It could be someone following up when they said they would, giving you a straight answer, or taking a little extra time to make sure the job gets done right. That sticks with you, because it shows they actually care. And if you're hiring, that same thing matters. You don't just want someone qualified, you want someone who actually wants the job and is willing to go the extra step. That's where ZipRecruiter comes in. Candidates can tell you in their own words, why they're interested in your job, which gives you a better read on who is really paying attention.

• 50:51Shawn Ryan?

  And ZipRecruiter has a new feature that shows you the most interested qualified candidates first, so you meet the right people faster. ZipRecruiter's powerful matching technology finds qualified candidates quickly, and no wonder ZipRecruiter is the number one rated hiring site based on G2. Try ZipRecruiter and meet great candidates who'll go the extra step for your job. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free, it's ziprecruiter.com/srs. That's ziprecruiter.com/srs. ZipRecruiter, meet your match on ZipRecruiter.

• 51:33Shawn Ryan?

  How would you get yourself into a gambling ring?

• 51:36Speaker 02

  Uh, it could be a source introduction. Somebody who's already gone gambling can invite me and go, but as far as working it, um, yeah, you develop sources and we, we would set up and do surveillance. Like, you go from being uniform patrol where everything's like this, and all of a sudden, you're an investigator and you're sitting in a car for twelve hours. Or you're laying in the woods for ten hours and watching, developing patterns. But after a while, maybe a month or so, now you know, I can show up at eleven fifteen, cause at eleven thirty, they're gonna come pick up their money. They do it every Monday, that kinda thing. And you start learning and develop sources and then get enough to get a warrant, search warrant, and arrest warrants and go in there and hit it.

• 52:17Shawn Ryan?

  How do you develop a source?

• 52:19Speaker 02

  Oh, there's all kinds of ways. Uh, I'd say probably common, one of the most common in law enforcement is somebody gets arrested. They get arrested for something else and maybe I'm arrest you and I'm talking to you and I'm like, hey, you know, you can help yourself out. You got any information on drug trafficking, anything like this? Oh, man, you know, I, I know this gambling ring, okay, you can do that. Um, sometimes they refer to that as you got a hammer over your head, like, we're holding you on a charge, but you can help yourself. Um, or my favorite is just developing, developing a connection with somebody. And then they're doing it, I, I wanna say out of the goodness of their heart, you know, but sometimes it is. Sometimes it's just patriotic, they just wanna do it.

• 53:02Speaker 02

  Sometimes it's monetarily driven, cause I'm, I'm paying them, you know?

• 53:05Shawn Ryan?

  How much would you pay them?

• 53:06Speaker 02

  It depends, depends on where you're at, uh, what the violation is and who. I mean, obviously in the FBI, you can get into some high-level sources where they're getting like a hundred and fifty grand, you know? For some big stuff. I'm sure you saw similar stuff, right? Um, but there's all kinds of techniques, uh, it's that, you can go to training, you can read stuff like interrogations, how to, how to ask questions better, there's training like that, but, um, for me with sources, it was just,

• 53:39Speaker 02

  if, let's say I've got something I'm looking at, and let's say, let's go with the drugs. We got a high tra, high, high trafficking area, we know they're doing a lot of dealing, we can't get anywhere close. Maybe I can set up outside of there, have a uniform patrol, there's a four-way stop sign on the way into that dope. How many people roll through a four-way stop sign? It's not hard to develop probable cause to pull the car over. Nobody drives perfect. You stay behind somebody long enough, there are so many traffic laws, you can find something to pull them over for. Maybe now, you get somebody with dope in their car, and you say, where did you get it? And you're trying to develop it that way. I'm like, that's where I'm trying to get to, but I'm over here. When it was special interest alien smuggling on the border, I would go to the border patrol and I'd say, look, border patrol, ICE, whoever it may be, and I'm like, look,

• 54:25Speaker 02

  I'm specifically working the Dona Terry Alien Smuggling Organization. If you guys come across anybody you apprehend and they say they're being smuggled by her, call me, no matter what time, cause I'm trying to build a case. And I might get it that way. And it might be two in the morning, say, we got somebody and they're being smuggled by her organization. I'm like, cool, we're on our way. You know, and start doing interviews and try to start building the case.

• 54:46Shawn Ryan?

  Right on.

• 54:47Speaker 02

  Really, all you're doing is, essentially, you're trying to either show that, yes, there are crimes being committed and you gather evidence of that and charge them. Or you go in there and you go, there are no crimes being committed, but we proactively went and investigated it.

• 55:04Shawn Ryan?

  How about prostitution rings?

• 55:07Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, I mean, we did that, um, that was eye-opening, it, it, as, as a young narcotics, vice narcotics investigator. Because I was like, you mean, in high school, I could've just came over here with twenty bucks and I could've gotten this? I'm like, I'm not saying I would've done it, but I'm saying I'm glad I didn't know. As a young kid, I'm like, whoa, I would probably would've made some bad decisions. But, uh, you go over there and we would, we would pick up the girls sometimes and, and roll through and get the prostitutes and then get them locked up. And then we would put our women out there and we would pick up the Johns coming.

• 55:46Speaker 02

  Now, that's super, there's some very, there's been very bad things that have happened on cases like that where the cover team loses the, the female and something bad happens, you know? So you gotta be, there's nothing to be lax about at all. You gotta be, have some choke points set up, have a reaction team ready, eyes on all the time, especially if they get in a car with somebody. There's all kinds of things you gotta think about. But I will say that it was eye-opening for me at that age and, and that level of knowledge to see who was coming.

• 56:19Shawn Ryan?

  Really, what do you mean by that?

• 56:20Speaker 02

  Preachers, pastors, uh, uh, elected officials, you know, and you're like, wow.

• 56:28Shawn Ryan?

  No way, politicians?

• 56:29Speaker 02

  What? I know.

• 56:31Shawn Ryan?

  Who'd have thought?

• 56:32Speaker 02

  It's crazy.

• 56:34Shawn Ryan?

  The most stand-up human beings in the fucking world.

• 56:36Speaker 02

  No.

• 56:37Shawn Ryan?

  US politicians.

• 56:38Speaker 02

  Next thing you're gonna tell me, the drugs are coming across the border.

• 56:43Speaker 02

  What? This is ridiculous. No way.

• 56:46Shawn Ryan?

  That's absurd. Politicians wouldn't get a prostitute.

• 56:53Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, man.

• 56:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, but that, like I said, at that point in my lifetime, it was shocking. Uh, later on, I'm like, eh, you know. Um, actually, very good source potential. If you, I mean, think of who's, what a street worker may have knowledge of. A lot of stuff on the street.

• 57:11Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 57:13Speaker 02

  You know?

• 57:13Shawn Ryan?

  Did you ever arrest any? Uh, like, public figures, like? Politicians, pastors, whatever?

• 57:22Speaker 02

  I know I've been on. I know I've been on arrest teams. Not my case personally, though. But like, big roundups or whatever, yeah. Um. Or.

• 57:33Shawn Ryan?

  Were there people that were off limits? That you just had to let them go?

• 57:38Speaker 02

  Not to my knowledge.

• 57:38Shawn Ryan?

  The mayor.

• 57:39Speaker 02

  Not to my knowledge. Not to my, not to my knowledge, but I will say. On a local level. There were times where you'd arrest somebody and everybody always says, I know the sheriff. I'm gonna call him. Well, you can call him and tell him that Scott Payne has you in handcuffs and you're going to jail.

• 57:55Speaker 02

  But there were times where the phone call. Did work. And it was like. Let him go. I'm like, all right, you know, I mean, you're signing the checks, you know? You do see some of that, but for the most part for me, I didn't see any, I didn't see anything like that, like untouchables. I'm sure it happens, you know? I'm not naive, but me personally, no.

• 58:17Shawn Ryan?

  What about, uh, you know, you were talking about? Females going undercover as prostitutes. Did you ever, were you ever on a case where one of those went wrong?

• 58:25Speaker 02

  Not me personally, but I have seen females, I've known females that go out and speak and I've got, uh, uh, peers that run undercover training and, and they, they, they have people that have happened. It's just, again, I mean, think about it. If you lose the eyeball on that person, or they hop in that car, dude takes off. I mean, it's.

• 58:47Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't know how they do it now. Um, cause in the bureau, when I was doing anything like that, it was more in the hotel room. Or we're going out. We're, we're answering that when it was all on back page and stuff like that. We're going. And, uh, it's Operation Cross Country. Uh, is where we're out there and we're trying to, we're not, we're not necessarily. Trying to charge a prostitute. It's not a federal crime anyway. We're trying to recover underage. Uh, boys and girls being trafficked. And we're trying to go after the pimps and the, and the traffickers themselves.

• 59:17Shawn Ryan?

  That happens a lot, huh?

• 59:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, so. Um. Yeah, usually there's always a pimp. Like I've, I've, I, I don't even actually believe, I'm like, I'm like, nah, this one doesn't have a pimp. And they follow her, they follow her out when she leaves. She gets in the car with a pimp, I'm like, damn gummit, she was lying to me and I believed it, you know? But then, then we'll try to get them, uh, or try to uncover, uh, information.

• 59:41Shawn Ryan?

  Why do they all have a pimp?

• 59:43Speaker 02

  I, I think for me, I believe it would be more so if you don't have a pimp.

• 59:51Speaker 02

  You might be getting in trouble. Like the pimp, maybe somebody's like, hey, that's my corner. That's my territory. Who's representing you? If nobody's representing you, well, then you better get some representation or this is gonna happen to you every day, blah, blah, blah.

• 1:00:02Shawn Ryan?

  Gotcha.

• 1:00:03Speaker 02

  Um, and there's madams, you know, like the escort services, I'm. I was calling and we were ordering up and, and, and they had different numbers. They had different numbers. You're just in like Yellow Pages or something, but just say there's this different escort services listed or whatever. And you're calling, well, they're, they're like, uh, on a trunk line. They're all going. It's like AAA Escort Service, uh, Moms Escort Service. But we're calling and even though it's a different number, I guess they've got a bank or something and it was the same woman.

• 1:00:35Shawn Ryan?

  Gotcha.

• 1:00:36Speaker 02

  And they'd be like, where are you from? And I'd say, I'm from the South. Can't you hear my accent? Yeah. What are you doing up here? Uh, you know, whatever my story is and all we got. Finally, the madam.

• 1:00:47Speaker 02

  The, the madam that runs the escort service gets on the phone with us.

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  She goes, Scott. I just talked to you a minute ago and I go. What? All right, listen. Clearly, you know, we're not after you. We're trying to find other, you know, clearly this room's burned, you know, but I'm like, how? How many, can you tell me how many of these businesses are you? So I don't call you anymore tonight, you know?

• 1:01:12Speaker 02

  You know, I'm like, I'm sorry, you know? We're just trying to work, you know?

• 1:01:16Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, shit.

• 1:01:17Speaker 02

  She goes, quick, call them. I said, I'm not. That, that's just like the fifth place I call them. You get on the phone.

• 1:01:24Speaker 02

  And then I call another one and they'd be like, I'd go, hey, uh, I was trying to go, it's still us, Scott. Damn it. I'd hang up, you know?

• 1:01:30Shawn Ryan?

  Like the Somali Learning Centers up in, uh, Minnesota.

• 1:01:36Speaker 02

  They don't, they're, they're not legit.

• 1:01:40Shawn Ryan?

  No. I'm sure they're legit.

• 1:01:42Speaker 02

  I'm sure. I'm sure.

• 1:01:45Shawn Ryan?

  Damn. So how'd the FBI pop on your radar then?

• 1:01:48Speaker 02

  Uh, my sergeant, when I went to Southern Command, my sergeant, Sergeant Kellet, uh, former Marine. Built like a bulldog, Popeye forearms, had the Fu Manchu, looked like a bulldog. And at that time, my nickname was Kingpin. And we were on a long surveillance one day. And he said, Kingpin?

• 1:02:10Speaker 02

  If I was young like you and I had a four-year degree. And I was single. He said, I'd apply for the FBI. And I'd put New York down as my office. And I said, dude, what are you smoking? Cause at that time, I didn't realize everything the FBI worked. I knew they worked bank robberies. That's the only time I thought I ever saw them, really. Um, I didn't know the FBI worked everything, Title 21 and Title 18. I mean, you wanna work alien smuggling? You wanna work drug trafficking? You wanna charge felony in possession? Got it all. And, um. He told me that it was harder to get hired by them. It was a har, it was a harder hiring process and I'm not knocking any other agency before I get hate mail. Or get texts from my friends who are from other agencies. Um, but that's what I'd heard and I applied with them first. Uh, once he started saying that to me.

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  And it was funny because I started looking and really. I was looking at where I was gonna be in five years. Cause at that point, I was, I was at the sheriff's office for almost five years and this happens almost everywhere. It wasn't just Greenwood County. County Council would give themselves raises, but they weren't giving the cops raises. It got so weird because the entry level pay, if you came in as a brand new officer, it was going up. But we weren't getting raises. So it might pass you, like you could literally quit. Come back with a four-year degree and make more money than you're making. And you, if you looked at it, you were never gonna max out before retirement. There, there, there wasn't any way. So we started doing like almost protests. We would show up at the county council meetings. Full uniform. If you weren't on duty, show up in your uniform, mass numbers, bring the news.

• 1:03:39Speaker 02

  And they finally started giving us some raises, but I, I just looked at where would I be financially? And it's clearly it's not all about money. Why would I go into law enforcement, you know? Um. But. I looked at the FBI. And in five years, as long as you don't get fired and really. As long as you don't lie under inquiry, I mean, I've seen, I mean, maybe things are different now. I don't know. I, I don't know how they are now. Uh, I'm tired five years ago, like I said, but. I, as long as you don't lie. You, you might get deemed, you might get 30 days on the bricks, you might get demoted, but. You're not gonna get fired. So at five years, you'll be a GS 13. And that's pretty good pay.

• 1:04:21Speaker 02

  And then you would max out at 1310 before you retire. And that's what I did. I maxed out at 1310. But I was looking and I started applying. And I remember the hiring process, like the physical fitness test, that was cool. I dieted down. Back then, I was a bigger, bigger boy, but, uh, I dieted down to 252 and I went in with like 9% body fat.

• 1:04:41Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 1:04:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I felt jacked. Um. But as soon as I could, as soon as I got out of Quantico, I was back eating and lifting like I normally did and I was back to like 275, you know? But, um. I, I applied, I took the test. Uh, phase one is like a lot of questions and a lot of big math part and then there's something else. And I remember going in there, Sean, I was like. I was like, um.

• 1:05:08Speaker 02

  Uh.

• 1:05:10Speaker 02

  I'm looking and I'm dressed up, but I showed up with long hair and a beard. Cause I told them, I said, do I need to cut my hair to do this phase one test? And they said, are you, are you doing actual undercover buys right now? I said, yeah, as a matter of fact, whenever I finish the test, I'm driving back and going on shift tonight. I'm probably gonna make a cocaine buy somewhere, you know? And they said, then you can keep your hair that way. So I was getting eyes looking at me anyway, right? So you got military people applying, they're in their full uniform. They're in their dress uniform. You got accountants, lawyers. That math part, I was like. I know I said I had a 38. I don't remember any of this. I tried to study geometry and algebra again and all this stuff and I was like.

• 1:05:52Speaker 02

  When we come walking out of the math section, I'm looking at the count, it's going.

• 1:05:57Speaker 02

  There's no way I passed that. And I'm looking, I'm like, well, I'm not even gonna sweat it then, because if you didn't pass it, I know I didn't pass it, man, you know? And, uh, it turns out I passed. I don't know. I, I don't know if that portion was in there just to rock you mentally. You know, like you do all these questions, like, no, I don't think my mom's sexy. No, I'm not fascinated with fire. No, I don't like harmless small animals. 400 questions later.

• 1:06:20Speaker 02

  Maybe you slip up and say, actually, I do like harmless small. You know, they do that, the psychological stuff. And then they break you with like a math thing and you come walking out going, I don't know. And then you come back with more 500 something questions. So maybe you slip up and it shows up, but I did that. I did the polygraph. I told you, I applied with four different, uh, two, three sheriff's offices and, and North Charleston Police Department. Um, so a polygraph on every one of them. Uh, the FBI polygraph, wow, was it way more thorough. I think I was in the box, the chair for three and a half hours. And I wasn't lying. I'm like, I don't know what you want me to tell you, man. I don't know what's skipping. I don't know, you know? What are they asking you? Drugs, prostitution? Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, this is, this is the funny part. So I'm a narcotics officer at the time. So the question was, have you done any illegal narcotics in the last 10 years? And I said, it's gonna be close. And they were like, what? I said, well, right at the 10 year mark, I said, I did like, Diana Ball. I said, but it was like eight CC, no. I can't remember how much was in it. But I stretched it over, it was like 10 CCs and I stretched it over eight weeks. I'm like, I was like, it's not even, I didn't know what I was doing. It's not enough to make my basket handle any bigger, you know? But I didn't know what I was doing. And they go, no, that's fine. And then, uh, so that's the question. Any illegal narcotics in the last 10 years? And I said, no, done. Next question. Have you smoked marijuana in the last three years? Again, that's not now. This is 1993.

• 1:07:49Speaker 02

  Oh, sorry, 98. I'm getting hired by the FBI. 98.

• 1:07:55Speaker 02

  Narcotics officer, I know what's illegal.

• 1:07:59Speaker 02

  I got you. Well, now I did that. Yeah, I did that. But he goes, have you, have you smoked marijuana in the last three years? And I was like, is that a trick question? He said, no. I said, dude, marijuana is an illegal narcotic. I just told you I haven't done illegal narcotics in the last 10 years. And he says, oh, well, you could have smoked weed up until three years ago. And I went, okay, no, answer's still no. And then he's like, um, well, how many times would you say you smoked it? So this is where it got way more thorough. It's like, yes, I've smoked weed before, but it was like, did you? I mean, it starts breaking it down. I'm like, did I package it? Where did I store it? Did I buy it? Did I give it to anybody? Did I sell it to anybody? And I'm like, bro, I can answer all your questions with just a few statements.

• 1:08:42Speaker 02

  I said, I was the guy that would give money. And then somebody would go get the dope. And it would come back to the party. You smoke what you could, and then it would go, whatever's left goes with somebody else. I said, one time, one time I brought it home. And I hid it. And this is, parents are already divorced. I'm with mom. I hid it and it was like the Telltale Heart, that story, man. I hid it and I was like, I'd wake up going, or that, that commercial where the dog keeps burying the bone and hiding it? I'm like, she's gonna find it. And I'd go put it somewhere else. I'd lay down, I'd go, she'll find it there. I'd go move it somewhere. I bet y'all moved it 20 times. I didn't sleep. And I'm like, I'm never bringing weed to my house again. You know, um, but when I did that, he says, he's answering me. I've heard it makes you paranoid. Yeah.

• 1:09:28Speaker 02

  It can, yeah. I like it now, retired, retired. They're like, now, if you hit the sativa, it's gonna jack you up. And you may have to take like a, like a, a lorazepam or something. I go,

• 1:09:40Speaker 02

  weed that jacks you up, that you have to take a lot, that makes no, that's not why you do it. Anyway, but, uh, so he's asking me and I said, listen, I would put my money in, this, that and the other. I said, I brought it home one time. I said, I've actually bought it at the place once or twice. And he's like, well, how many times would you say you smoked? And I'm like,

• 1:10:00Speaker 02

  I don't know, man. It was like, this is like 1989, you know? And he's like, he goes, well, would you say no more than 15? And I went, yeah, that sounds good. Then he jumps on the table, bam. You think this is a joke? You think, and while he's yelling at me, now I'm panicking in my head. I'm like 15 joints, 15 nights, 15 pounds? I don't know. And I'm like, I don't, I'm like, I don't know, man, 15. 15 sounds good, but in my head, I'm thinking, okay.

• 1:10:26Speaker 02

  No illegal narcotics in 10 years. With the exception of weed within three years and no more than 15 times. How'd you come up with those numbers? And I'm thinking, whose kid needed to be hired? Yeah, good point. That, that smoked weed in the last three years, but no more than 15 times? How'd you come up with those numbers? So anyway, it's pretty funny, but I, I passed clearly. Um, and then you do, uh, you do another phase two, which is like interviews and stuff. And if you, if you're blessed, or I consider it blessed, um, I got the letter saying, hey, you've been selected, new agents class, blah, blah, blah. Be in Quantico 927 and 98. Right on. Bam. And then I'm there. How was training?

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  I, I liked it. I liked it. It was, um, it was cool because they have different dorm rooms there, but the Jefferson dorm, you get your own room. The Madison and Washington dorms, which at that time, one of those was being used by DEA before they built their own academy at Quantico. But those were suites and, you know, two bed, two bedroom, sharing a bathroom thing. And, uh, it was so packed when we got there. Our class actually got the Jefferson dorm. So you had your own room. Um, at one point they were talking about moving us back. And I mean, I went to the counselors. I'm like, I've been a cop, you know? Been on teams and stuff. I'm like, other than I was being on different floors, I said, this is the same thing. Everybody's doors propped open. They were worried about the camaraderie, you know?

• 1:11:55Speaker 02

  And without effect, you know, we want that whole team concept. I said, it's a team concept. So we stayed there and it was good. Um, but I call that place the bio dorm. I, I've been in that thing for three, four days and realized I haven't been outside. I've not had one breath of fresh air. Cause you go from your room to the cafeteria to class, maybe to your room, to the cafeteria, to class, go to the gym. Uh, if you did do PT, you ran outside. But other than that, I mean, I've been walking around and go, holy crap, I've been in this thing for three days, like a gerbil. You know, in a gerbil tunnel. And he's like, bust the door and be like, ah, give me some fresh air. But, uh, it was good. I, I had a really good time. And again, I went through the winter months.

• 1:12:39Speaker 02

  Um, so our yellow brick road run got snowed out, but we went on a, a nice, long point run in the snow. It was fun. Nice. I wasn't the fastest, but, uh, uh, my instructor, uh, Crawford, he was like 6'9". Uh, Crawford, he would, he would tell me, hey, big fella, you think you would bring up the back? You know, because we'd have some stragglers getting strung out. And I'd, I'd do that, you know? Come up, if it'd be me and, like, like, I'm not at the best in shape. I'm the biggest on paper for my class. But you see coming up that gravel road, how about four or five stragglers? Come on, yeah, yeah, get up that hill.

• 1:13:19Speaker 02

  I'm like, what do you weigh? 120 pounds? You should be, you should have finished 10 minutes ago. Get your butt up there. What kind of stuff, uh, I mean, what did you want to do in the FBI? Did you want to go undercover again? Yeah, definitely undercover, dope, SWAT. Um, I, uh, I, I did get New York City, oddly enough. You have 56 field offices, so you list them 1 through 56. Um, but really in my mind, after all the years, I'm like, they should just let you list your top 10. And if you don't get your top 10, send me where you're gonna send me. Cause man, you rack your brain. You're like, okay, I don't want them to think this. I'm gonna start southeast. I'm gonna work my way up the east coast and then I'm gonna end over here. I don't want to be out in Alaska. I want to, you know?

• 1:14:02Speaker 02

  It's, and we, we all say a joke, but they got a monkey they blindfold and just let them throw a dart at the map. And that's what you get. That blind monkey, like they're throwing it. But, uh, it, in 98,

• 1:14:18Speaker 02

  we go by the fiscal year, like October, right? Um, so in 98, at the beginning of the year, FBI had been loading up Washington field office because of the Africa embassy bombings. So at the end of the year, uh, your big offices like Chicago, LA, New York, San Fran, they're all screaming going, hey, we need bodies. Um, so the last three classes of the fiscal year, uh, we got hit and 15 out of my class got in New York City. I had, New York was like 36 on my 1 through 56. I just worked my way up, but I got New York and then you go there and it's, uh, because it's the biggest field office and it's a big city, they put you through like a rotation.

• 1:15:02Speaker 02

  You don't just get right on the squad. You're gonna work the applicant squad to give you time to learn the city. How to get to work, where your placard works, where it doesn't, shortcuts. Um, but it also is a time where you can pawn yourself off to help other squads, because there's always a risk going on. And I, I immediately started working into the dope squads. I went to the, we had a drug branch prior to 9/11, had a drug branch. And, um, I mean, you had an Italian drug squad. Um, an Asian drug squad. We had C33, which I think was mostly black gangs, but we had a Colombian and Dominican squads. Uh, HIDA, it was, it was big.

• 1:15:45Speaker 02

  And I went over there and started saying, hey, man, I'll help. This is my background. I'll help whatever you need. Would love to get, you know? And that's what I started doing. And I'd, I'd be the first one there, last one to leave. Um, pull surveillance, do paperwork, whatever you want me to do to kind of earn a name for myself. And then when it came time to go to an actual squad, um, they were gonna put me on,

• 1:16:10Speaker 02

  they, they were gonna put me on a foreign counter intelligence squad, which for me at that point in time would have been like watching paint dry. Uh, I was, I was been fish out of water stuff. But

• 1:16:20Speaker 02

  the supervisor that had been over me said, hey, now this guy, he's, he's got a good drug background. He needs to be going to the drug branch. And they put me on, I, I was told I was going to the HIDA squad, high intensity drug trafficking area squad. And, uh, I got a phone call from the supervisor of the Colombian drug squad that I'd worked with a good bit. And he said, hey, I just wanted you to know that, uh, I found out you're going to HIDA. And I said, yes, sir. And he said, well,

• 1:16:49Speaker 02

  I'm in pretty good with the ASAC and the SAC. They like our squad a lot. And I'm just calling you because I remember you saying you'd like to come to our squad. And I'm just letting you know, I can make that happen. Um, but if you want to go to HIDA, I mean, you go, I'm like, I'm not an idiot. And we got a supervisor calling saying he wants you, you know? I said, absolutely. I'd love to come, Columbia Drug Squad. And that's what I got.

• 1:17:10Speaker 02

  And that's why I was on for three years and, uh, I landed in undercover. I was already doing cameos and.

• 1:17:20Shawn Ryan?

  What do you mean?

• 1:17:21Speaker 02

  Like, uh, well, cameo, just like, just like a cameo and a, and a TV show or something.

• 1:17:25Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:17:25Speaker 02

  It's like, I'm not going deep undercover. Uh, for instance, let's say LA takes off 3,000 pound weed shipment, or a cocaine shipment, and they pop it there, but they know that it was supposed to come to New York City. Well, they cut a lead, we get on the phone, and we're like, okay, we need to know what the package looks like, all that stuff. We make the package the same way, and now we can go deliver that package to the targets that we're gonna get it. And it depends on your, it, it depends on the assistant United States attorney you're working with. Some may want more evidence, some may be happy with just this much. Like, hey, you deliver it, they take control of it, pop 'em. Some may be like, no, I wanna actually know that they were planning on opening it. Okay, well, how do we do that?

• 1:18:09Speaker 02

  Maybe we build something with a switch in it. So, we, we deliver it, and me and another NYPD detective cameo, we roll up, I don't, I'm not showing you ID, I'm not doing all that, it's just rolling up, delivering it, drop it off, and then the team's waiting, and when the thing gets popped, they say, hey, man, they just pop the box, and then go in and arrest everybody.

• 1:18:28Shawn Ryan?

  Right on, right on. Do you remember your first big bust?

• 1:18:33Speaker 02

  Uh, in the FBI, man. So, in New York, you would get big licks. I do remember seeing, the first time I saw like 100,000 plus ecstasy pills, I didn't realize how much floor space that would cover. I was like, that is a lot of pills. Well, again, it looks like Fruit Loops are everywhere. I'm like, goodness gracious, that's a lot of pills. Um, saw some decent seizures of cocaine too, but I leave New York, uh, and I got a specialty undercover transfer. I was actually assigned to New York when 9/11 happened, but the day of 9/11, I was undercover in San Antonio, Texas. So, as soon as I could fly commercially, as soon as they opened up the airways, um, I flew back and helped cover some leads down at Ground Zero

• 1:19:14Speaker 02

  and stuff. But I, but my transfer was already kinda in motion at that point, and my, my boss, who said, Joe Demarest, he said, hey, uh, call me Drug Squad, I can make it happen. When 9/11 happened, he was the acting ASAC, and he ended up running pretty much the command post and everything. So, he told me, he pulled me aside, and he said, listen, go out there, work with your brothers and sisters, don't pick up anything though, because if you get wrapped into this, they're gonna cancel your transfer. He said, go out, work, but in other words, don't pick up a case, cuz you'll lose your transfer.

• 1:19:48Shawn Ryan?

  Gotcha.

• 1:19:49Speaker 02

  So, I appreciated that, and then I went to the border. So, you go to the border, one of the first things we get called out on, it's like 3,000 pounds of weed.

• 1:19:58Shawn Ryan?

  3,000 pounds of weed?

• 1:19:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, you're on the border, you're on the border. But I say that, but picture somebody working in Miami, or one of these big ports, and they pop a hull of a ship, and you got like, I don't know, 1,000 kilos of cocaine, you're like, so the bigger the stuff, you know, bigger, you, you might, 3,000 pounds in South Carolina would, at that point in time, would have been ginormous. It would have been a huge bust, but on the border, you know?

• 1:20:24Shawn Ryan?

  What does 3,000 pounds of weed look, what, what is it, a semi?

• 1:20:28Speaker 02

  No, uh, uh, I'll tell you what, I had an extended cab, long bed Chevy, we loaded that thing. I mean, I'm literally in the truck, weed over my head, driving like this, and we loaded another truck. So, yeah, I mean, they were in big bales, you know, and then bullet casings everywhere, because it was a rip. Um, they called them pseudo cops. So, you got cartel, uh, uh, or gangs, and what they're doing is, they'll go get the uniforms, they'll have the exact same year, model, make of, uh, either the ambulance or the Border Patrol truck, paint it exactly the same, and they ride around doing hits.

• 1:21:11Speaker 02

  So, what that particular case I'm talking about was, it was, it was a rip. They came over like they were the police. Hey, police, policial, abra puerta, you know, I mean, open the door, all this other, but it's a rip, they're not real cops. They're either gang or cartel members, and they're ripping them. And I mean, there was blood trails everywhere, and, and, uh, you know, now you're trying to figure out the case, who's where, checking the hospitals, and you're like, hmm, check the hospitals in Mexico. And, uh, then the Mexican officials, through our liaisons, go over and they do their interrogation.

• 1:21:45Speaker 02

  They got a confession, but the report I read said they took the pencil and stuck it in the gun wound, and twisted it, and that's when the guy confessed, and I'm like, yeah, we can't do that here in the States. That's called, we have a constitution, I can't do that. That would be, that would be bad. But I appreciate you getting the confession, you know, in another country.

• 1:22:06Shawn Ryan?

  So, did you like San Antonio or New York better, working?

• 1:22:10Speaker 02

  Uh, working? Uh, I will say, I will say the San Antonio division. I was down in McAllen, um, on the border. I will say that, because that's where I learned how to really be a case agent from beginning to end. I love New York, I had a good time, but for really the whole third year, I was undercover. So, the two years, you're on a big squad, and you're new. You don't know how to take a case from beginning to end, even though I was a, previously a cop and an investigator, but maybe I'm the guy that's young, with no family, and I'll stay out on the late hours with the surveillance squad, you know, with the NYPD detectives. And then, maybe we got a case, and it's like, hey, Scott, back, cuz back then, they were still using beepers. So, I would go down to World Trade

• 1:22:52Speaker 02

  Center, weekly, and, uh, cuz there was a beeper place in there, I can't remember which one, I don't know if it was Motorola or what, but you had to get a court order and stuff, and, uh, maybe a search warrant, I don't know if we had to get a search warrant back then for it, but clone the beeper. So, bad guy's beeper, we go there, clone it. So, every, every text, every beep you're getting, uh, sent to you, I'm getting a copy of it. And I'm over here, and I'm breaking down, oh, okay, uh, I'm breaking down their code. I'm like, alright, so that's a kilo. Alright, they're meeting this dude at 44th or whatever, you know, 144th, and so you do good on that case. Well, the next case opens up, and they go, hey, man, Scott was great with surveillance and, and doing the beeper thing, let's let him do that again. So, you might get pigeonholed, and I just didn't, I just didn't get enough time to, uh, work a case from beginning to end on

• 1:23:36Speaker 02

  my own. When I got to McAllen, yeah, that's when I do that, that's when you do your first case, and you're putting it together for prosecution, and you're looking at the binder going, that's pretty thin. I'm like, man, I should've taken more pictures, I should've made more recordings, but by, by a third case, it's airtight.

• 1:23:52Shawn Ryan?

  Right on. Well, let's take a break, and then we'll get into some more undercover work down on the border.

• 1:23:57Speaker 02

  Let's do it.

• 1:24:00Shawn Ryan?

  I used to dip all the time when I was in the SEAL teams. Nicotine was just part of the day. It was a ritual. So, I understand why guys reach for it. You want that pouch, you want focus, you want something during work or training, but nicotine is addictive. And if you're using it around workouts, it can work against you in the gym. That's why I've been using Ultra pouches. Ultra gives you the pouch experience with zero nicotine and zero caffeine. And for training, that's huge, because nicotine is a vasoconstrictor. It narrows your blood vessels, and can work against the pump you're trying to get. Ultra

• 1:24:40Shawn Ryan?

  uses clinically proven nootropics and adaptogens to deliver immediate focus and smooth energy that lasts one to two hours. You pop one in about five minutes before a workout, run, or workday, and it helps sharpen your mind and lift your energy without the nicotine, caffeine, crash, or addiction. I keep these in my gym bag for that extra push before a workout. They're also great when you're working, fasting, or trying to stay locked in. And they have great flavors like Cool Mint, Wintergreen, Tropical, Watermelon, and Blue Raz. Lately, I've been using the Tropical flavor, and I love it. Ultra is the ultimate

• 1:25:22Shawn Ryan?

  guilt-free pouch, delivering instant focus and mental clarity without nicotine or caffeine. New customers can use code SRS to get 15% off at takeultra.com. That's takeultra.com for 15% off with code SRS. After you purchase, they're gonna ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show, and tell them we sent you.

• 1:25:48Shawn Ryan?

  Looking for another way to support the Sean Ryan Show? Head to SeanRyanShow.com and check out the latest drops from Vigilance Elite. We just released new gear, including this beautiful moisture-wicking VE Performance Hat, and SRS Campfire Mugs, and you guessed it, Vigilance Elite gummy bears. Oh, shit! Every purchase directly supports the show, and helps us continue bringing you independent conversations without compromise. Visit SeanRyanShow.com and grab yours today.

• 1:26:26Speaker 02

  All right, Scott, we're back from the break. We're getting ready to get into what you were doing down in San Antonio. Yes, so I did do undercovers while I was there, but they were out of town. I was a case agent as well. So a lot of people, I think one of the misconceptions is a lot of people think if you're undercover, you're undercover full-time. We do have that, and my experience is very rare. So you're still an agent on a squad. So if I'm in McAllen and I leave for a week to go do an undercover somewhere, when I come back, my boss is expecting me to be a case agent, not just an undercover. And they're looking at their squad going, hey, I know you're doing undercover over here, but that doesn't give me credit on my squad.

• 1:27:11Speaker 02

  And we got these measures and marks we gotta hit. So I just tried to be a go-getter, be a big hitter on the squad, have big cases. You're not able to concentrate on one specific thing full-time? It's rare, in my experience. I mean, now, Jack Garcia, Jack Garcia was in New York City. I think he was pretty much working non-stop undercover, but New York City is the largest office we got, so maybe it's a little easier to kinda blend or fade away. You know what I mean? But if, I mean, I get it. If I'm a manager of a squad, and I know our threats are this, and we need to be working them, and I know, even especially if you know somebody who is a good worker, and they're a ghost, they're not at their desk, and they're not working.

• 1:27:53Speaker 02

  So my MO kinda was, actually, it is my MO, it's been my whole career, is to try to be above average. Not, you can't be better than everybody. I mean, maybe you can, I don't know. I'm just saying, try to be above average. So if I am succeeding, and I'm one of the top producers as far as cases, sources being developed, I felt like that gave me a tool to argue back to management to say, hey, let me go to this SWAT call-out, let me do this SWAT school, let me participate at the undercover school, let me do this undercover, and you're gonna see that I'm not gonna slip, that you're gonna still have these stats and stuff. And that's what I did, until sometimes to my own detriment.

• 1:28:37Speaker 02

  But when I was down there, I was working a lot of cartel stuff, obviously. When I got there as a case agent, working drugs, and then this new thing started coming up, and it was, it's called special interest alien smuggling. So we're kinda working alien smuggling organizations, but what we're looking for is anybody being smuggled into the United States from a threat country. So China, Russia, things like that, and that's what you're looking for. So it's the same cartel. When I was down there, OZL Cardenas was the head of the Gulf Cartel. And as violent as it was, at least there was some kinda SOP. They have some kinda standard order procedures, right?

• 1:29:21Speaker 02

  Like if they kidnap somebody, and we get a hold of it, as the FBI gets a hold of it, now I'm over here and I'm calling, you know, you call into my squad, and maybe I get the call. And it's like, hey, my son's been kidnapped, the cartel's got him, and they tell him that they're gonna kill him if we give him this, we don't give him money. And what I would do is I would come back on those cases, and I'd say, look, I need you to be honest with me, because I'm not doing a drug investigation, I'm working an investigation, trying to get your son back, who's been kidnapped, and you're being extorted, right? But I need to know the truth. Is there dope involved? And it starts, the lies start, and I'm like, listen, if you lie, I'm gonna hang up the phone. Be truthful.

• 1:30:04Speaker 02

  I'm telling you, I know you may not trust me, but this is what we're trying to figure out. And then it would come out that, yeah, sometimes dope's missing. Like, one of the last big ones I worked there is my case. Three, I say kids, they were like 19, 20, 21, they were in way over their head. What they were doing was muling, but they would be told by the cartel, drive this car, and it would drive from McAllen to Dallas. Well, they're being followed by the cartel. When it gets to Dallas, they stop at a mall, so the kids go in the mall, and they stay there. Cartel member gets in that car, they go to the chop shop, or wherever they're going, they open up the trap, they take the dope out, put the money in, they go get the kids,

• 1:30:49Speaker 02

  kids now, the kids drove dope up, they don't know what's in the car, drive, I mean, you know, you're in the dope game, sure, but drive back, don't know how much money. So what happens is, they get back, and there's like a hundred thousand dollars missing out of the car, or the trap. So they kidnap the kids, and that's when we get involved. And the way it would work is, like I said, I'm calling, I'm with the family, tell me the truth, I'm going over there, because we used to operate, we knew that we really only had the battery life of the phone of the victim, because the cartel wasn't big on recharging the phone, and they're using that phone to call and make the demands, right? So we're working it, I call the, we have a border liaison officer, and that border liaison

• 1:31:34Speaker 02

  officer, we have liaisons in Mexico, whether it's a comandante, cop, elected official, whatever, military, and we call, and I say, look, person's name is this, it happened at such and such time, at this street corner, in this street corner, they said it was like three Suburbans rolled up, all blacked out, some dudes with BDUs jumped out, grabbed this guy, named such and such, around this time. Within 30 minutes to an hour, you get a call back from the border liaison officer, yep, they got him, it's the cartel. Well, what's the deal? Well, they want, they always come in like, we want 300 grand. Okay, so use broker deal, is what you do. You go in there with the family, I'm like, you got 300 grand? No. They don't have it. 100 grand, we don't have it. Well, what do you got? We can come up with 60 grand.

• 1:32:19Speaker 02

  What else you got? The cartel was big on the border, it was, if you had a 4x4 V8 or a Harley, they were getting stolen all the time. So it's like, hey, let's say it's 2006, we got a 2005 Chevy Tahoe, 4x4 V8. Okay, cool. Midnight, there goes the Tahoe with the 60 grand, here comes a kid across, these kids across. You know, we work stuff like that all the time. But we did get those kids back, because what, on that particular case, what happened was, there's a last stretch of 281, you're in McAllen, and you're headed to the border, and there's a lot of used car lots.

• 1:33:00Speaker 02

  Well, sometimes, some people working in those car lots might be, I don't know, acquaintances with the cartel, right? It was nothing to have cartel living in your neighborhood. But wind came out that, when the car came back, there was two, the cartel members was an old guy, they called him El Agula, the Eagle, and a younger kid that just kinda, like, just starting out. And somebody started calling and said, hey, that old guy, he just came over here and bought two cars. You're like, bought two cars? Yeah, I think he's got a new apartment or something, too. All right? He's just blowing money, that he's never been blowing before. So he puts a target on his back.

• 1:33:42Speaker 02

  They go, and they press the young kid, the cartel does, press the young kid, press the old guy. Old guy doesn't break, young kid breaks and says, hey, yeah, he wanted me to take it with him. I said, absolutely not. And the last, last information I got was, they had chopped either both of his hands, or at a minimum of his fingers off, and he was cooked alive in a 55-gallon drum. Holy shit. I can't remember if it was acid or diesel fuel. They did both back then, but it was called El Guisa, it's soup, they're making you into soup. So I guess if you work for the cartel, don't steal from the cartel. Damn. But OZL had all kinds of crazy things, he had a... Is that common? Yeah, back then, yeah, yeah.

• 1:34:27Speaker 02

  Lots of kids getting cooked. Well, it was a common technique that they might use. I mean, Texas Syndicate would do it, too, that's a gang, but they, we've seen them light people on fire and burn them alive, too. It's just violent, and I'm careful, because I don't want people to go, oh, you're saying all of Mexico's, no, I'm not saying that at all. I love Hispanic culture, I've got numerous Hispanic friends still down there. But the cartel, yeah, was violent. I mean, he had a lion he fed people to, and that was confirmed, it wasn't by me, but I remember the word came back, I can't remember if they were in a fixed-wing plane or in a helicopter, liaisoning, and they're flying over, and it was like, you see a big lion

• 1:35:09Speaker 02

  in a cage, and you're like, man, those bones, where are all these bones in that cage? They're like, oh, apoyo, it's chicken. Pretty big chicken, pretty big bones. Damn. Looks a little more like a femur, but I'm not, you know, never mind, never mind a judge, you know? And then, this is sick, I don't know, I don't know if I've heard people get like vulgarly gross on your show before, but it's true. He had a... It's pretty graphic on this show. Yeah, okay, good. He had a little person, midget, I don't know, they were calling him a midget, I don't wanna offend anybody, but he had a midget who was apparently blessed in the Nether

• 1:35:53Speaker 02

  Regions, and he used that guy to rape people, as part of torture. Because when you get kidnapped, I mean, it was big on like, they'll take kilos, which is a 2.2 pound brick, hit you in the head with it, cigar burns all over you, electrocute stuff, that was big back then, I don't know what they do now, but we always thought it was a wife's tale. But one Christmas Eve, I was actually driving to Arizona with my wife and kids, and I got a lot of sources, and we started getting calls, and what happened was, is a guy goes and carjacks a vehicle, and drives right into Mexico, and tries to sell it to the cartel. We didn't look in the back, there's an infant in the backseat. So now the cartel's pissed, because he's bringing heat that doesn't need to be there,

• 1:36:38Speaker 02

  and he's an idiot. So they are threatening to kill him, and then we get that call. Hey, they got my son, they're gonna kill him, blah, blah, blah, and we're doing the whole brokering thing, I've got sources reporting stuff, I'm coordinating while I'm driving, because I was a senior guy, and when they get the guy back, he comes across the bridge bawling, and they called me, and they're like, dude, the midget's real. I'm like, what? They're like, yeah, they said, he came across, and he was crying, and they said, when the call came in, like FBI, like, hey, okay, we're on the phone, we got the money, we're ready, let's meet. The midget was in the room. The guy was crying, he was getting ready, he was getting ready to be tortured a little bit. Get raped by a midget.

• 1:37:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, so about the time I was transferring out of there, or maybe shortly thereafter, the Department of Justice, I say we, took off OZL Cardenas. And I don't know what anybody else's thoughts on it are, but I don't think we ever pictured that you take that guy off, it created a vacuum. So even though it was violent, we had those, hey, it's FBI case, you don't want us to shut down the border, so this kid come back, blah, blah, blah. We had that kind of thing going. And even if they did, they did cough up. The cartel coughed up two undocumented aliens coming from Yemen. Because they came in and asked the wrong people, and the cartel was like, we don't want this

• 1:38:07Speaker 02

  kind of heat. Hey, FBI, we got two people. But when we took him off, it created a, it created a vacuum, and now everybody's starting to compete for power. Because under the Gulf cartel at that time, the enforcement arm were the CETA's, Z-E-T-A-S. Paramilitary, must have been trained, those are the ones pulling up in the suburbs, jumping out, grabbing you. They're the ones that are collecting the quotas. If you smuggle dope or undocumented aliens, you have to pay a quota to the cartel. At least when I was there, it was like every two weeks you had to pay. If you didn't pay, they'll kidnap you. I've had sources get kidnapped and held and tortured. I've had targets, same thing happened to them, until they can pay up their money.

• 1:38:50Shawn Ryan?

  How would they torture them?

• 1:38:52Speaker 02

  Same, same, one of them. She was, she was tough, she was tough. She is a, they threatened to rape her, but like 20 guys or something, and she was an older lady. She's like, she's like, Anne? I mean, she was tough. And they were like, huh. But yeah, the burning, the smacking, you know, hitting you in the head, stuff like that. But what happened is OZL gets taken out, and now the CETA's are like, well, we're the ones getting all the stuff. We should be running this. We're gonna take over. Then you got somebody trying to move up in the Gulf cartel. Then you got Senyala cartel coming in saying, no, we're gonna take this spot. You got MS-13 saying, no, we're gonna take this spot. And the last I talked to people that were down there working it,

• 1:39:37Speaker 02

  it just got to the point to where the extortions and the timeframe and the money and stuff, they were just following through because they were just chopping people's heads off. Because everybody's fighting for territory. So if a nice vehicle, nicer vehicle rolls in to this town, and this town is being run by CETA's, and we go, well, you're not one of us, but you gotta be somebody because you're in a decent vehicle. Innocent bystanders have been killed. I had a friend of mine in East Tennessee, he grew up doing, his parents were doing missions, and he was familiar at this one village in the south of McAllen, going through there. But he asked me if I could check because the family had lost contact, and I reached out, and the border liaison officer at the time was a friend of mine, and they did some research, and he'd been, it's one of those deals.

• 1:40:22Speaker 02

  And a vehicle couldn't explain, we're not cartel, we're not Senyala, we're not CETA's, and it's six heads.

• 1:40:30Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 1:40:31Speaker 02

  Six heads in a car.

• 1:40:34Shawn Ryan?

  Did you see a lot of that?

• 1:40:35Speaker 02

  A decent, decent amount. Like, actually seeing it, looking at it, not necessarily, but the videos and stuff were starting to come. They were starting to mimic, you know, yeah, yeah, the live sawing, like just slow motion, rusty blade, you can hear the gurgles, yeah, sick.

• 1:40:54Shawn Ryan?

  Man. Did you see a lot of human trafficking down there, too?

• 1:40:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, that's what, I mean, that is smuggling, essentially. I get, we have a huge problem with the human trafficking stuff. I get a little muddy in my head sometimes because I, I could take you storytelling or experience-wise from the border all the way to the hotel room, right? But if it's a, if it's an adult, and they are choosing to be an escort, is that human trafficking? Or if that's the way they are now, maybe, which is what we found a lot, or in my experience we found a lot was, they were brought in underage, but they're of age now. So they were trafficked early on, and now this is all they do.

• 1:41:43Speaker 02

  But, yes, they were, there were different organizations, like certain organizations had good reputations. Like, hey, if you're getting kids smuggled in, you want Dona Teddy. You want her because she always takes care of the kids. Everybody loves her. As opposed to an organization that just drugs up the kids with Benadryl. And then everybody's rolling through the checkpoint all drugged up, and you don't know if they're gonna get dumped or not. So I mean, it's still, I mean, it's a business model, right? You want somebody good. But there are some that'll take the girls and push them right into human trafficking, or that indentured servitude thing, you know. We saw that a lot in Philly, on some cases I worked up there with my buddies, saw it in New York.

• 1:42:27Speaker 02

  You would see like the brothels and stuff where people got smuggled in, but now they're having to work off. So yeah, it's trafficking. But yeah, I mean, the border, it's, I mean, dope and people. And guns, but guns usually go the other way. Trading them, trading them for dope and stuff.

• 1:42:47Shawn Ryan?

  Guns going the other way, huh?

• 1:42:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, so like, say we're a gang, say we're Texas syndicate, syndicato, right? Or Mexican mafia or whatever. Aryan Brotherhood, let's say we're Aryan Brotherhood, since we're white. I'll put us in our correct genre ethnicity. But say we're Aryan Brotherhood, and we've got weapons, but we're good at getting weapons, but we get down there, we trade the weapons for dope. I wouldn't say that's all the time, but I mean, it happens.

• 1:43:17Shawn Ryan?

  What's, I'm just curious, you know, when you're talking about like these ransom things, is that what you'd call it, like ransom?

• 1:43:23Speaker 02

  Extortion kidnapping.

• 1:43:24Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, extortion kidnapping. What's, what's your success rate of recovery?

• 1:43:30Speaker 02

  As far as I know, once we've gotten the case, we got them.

• 1:43:34Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 1:43:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do not, I never heard of.

• 1:43:37Shawn Ryan?

  Not very many times to get cooked in a barrel?

• 1:43:39Speaker 02

  I didn't, well, but that wasn't one of the victims. That was one of the cartel guys. The victims got kidnapped because the money was missing, but once they figured out it was El Agula, they let the kids go.

• 1:43:50Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:43:52Speaker 02

  So yeah, I would say, from my knowledge, and I never heard of anybody talking in the history of McAllen where they've lost some. I'm sure it's happened, but from my knowledge, no. Once we got the case and we made the phone calls, we'd get them back.

• 1:44:06Shawn Ryan?

  So what's the transfer look like?

• 1:44:10Speaker 02

  You're at the bridge, or you're at the port, and it's like, you know, here comes the car and the money. Here comes Juan, or Pablo, whoever, whoever the person is. Now, a lot of times, now, here's the thing, though, a lot of times, if it was drugs, and we've done all that, we busted our tail to get that person back safely, we'd be ready to interview them. Soon as they come to us, they go, I'm not telling you nothing. Because they've just been threatened that they're, that, even though the cartel's cutting them loose, the cartel's telling them, we'll kill you, we'll kill your family, we'll kill your dogs, we'll cut your tongues out, all, whatever. So they're not gonna work with us. So some may argue that we just freed a drug dealer.

• 1:44:51Speaker 02

  Now, the human trafficking stuff, I saw that as a, I mean, me personally, my personal opinion, which the Constitution's the Constitution, but my, my personal opinion is, is yeah, those are victims. I mean, they got paid, they paid money, somebody paid money for them to come across the river, be smuggled across the river. Then they get them to a staging location, which is the stash house. Then you gotta get around the checkpoint, and from there, that's where you go off to Houston, Dallas, or wherever. But we've had cases where they're extorting the family who's already here, they're undocumented, but they're already here, and they're extorting the family, saying, you know, we've already dumped your sister in the brush and let her, left her to die. Your five-year-old daughter's sick, and we're not gonna give her any medicine unless you start paying us more money.

• 1:45:36Speaker 02

  So now they're extorting that family. Now we're trying to find where the stash house is at, trying to rescue that five-year-old girl.

• 1:45:43Shawn Ryan?

  Damn, man.

• 1:45:44Speaker 02

  That was a good case. We were on that one. That was, that was a hump. It was, I mean, it only lasted several days, but you're trying to find, you're trying to get any peace you can. And, and we eventually got it. It was one of those, it was one of those deals where we knew that, we knew that the phone that was being used by the extortion person was somewhere in a general facility. But that facility's like, let's say it's a big gas station or something. And then it's like, hey, it looks like, looks like the thing's moving, kind of thing. And then at that same time, four different people walk out.

• 1:46:27Speaker 02

  And I'm like, oh, and I'm the lead agent, and I'm looking, and I'm going, oh, man, Lord help me. And I'm looking, and I'm going, everybody's like, which one are we going with? Which one are we going with? And I'm just looking, and I'm going, if my gut's right, let's follow that guy. And we surveil, and then once we put that guy down, we were confirmed that the phone was close by, and we're like, got the right one. So then you get kicking the door. The, the undocumented aliens weren't there, but we knew we had the right guy because the phone that had been used to call was there, and they had ledgers. They had ledgers of, it was very, it was actually great for intelligence. They had ledgers of names of all the organizations. So if this load came in today, this notebook would say every person's name in the group,

• 1:47:12Speaker 02

  this illegal, undocumented, and then it would have the name of the walker, the coyote, and it would have the name of the organization that brought them over. And then the next ledger was that coyote that picked them up and who's taking them. And then after about an hour and a half of interrogation, he decided to take us to the stash house, and we got the five-year-old girl back.

• 1:47:32Shawn Ryan?

  Wow, that's awesome.

• 1:47:33Speaker 02

  Put her on the phone with her mom. They were Honduran family. We put her on the phone with her mom. She still had her little schoolgirl outfit on. And, yeah, they weren't a dry eye, all the guys, man, we were like, yeah. Just put her on, go, hey, here's your mommy, and she's talking, and then, man, we were all like, you know, it sure is, it's windy out here. I got some sand. I'm not crying, you're crying.

• 1:47:59Shawn Ryan?

  Damn. You seen all this stuff going on at the border in Spain?

• 1:48:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, just from what I've, a little bit, just on TV.

• 1:48:09Shawn Ryan?

  Crazy.

• 1:48:10Speaker 02

  Mass.

• 1:48:11Shawn Ryan?

  There's a poly market on this.

• 1:48:13Speaker 02

  There's gotta be. I mean, it's a coordinated effort for somebody for that many people to pop in.

• 1:48:18Shawn Ryan?

  Well, that's what I was gonna ask you. What do you think? I mean, there's a poly market on this, whether Spain will accuse Morocco facilitating the migrant surge into Quata. From your border experience, how can you tell when migrant, when migration is organic versus deliberately encouraged by a government or a criminal network?

• 1:48:34Speaker 02

  Oh, that's a good question. Uh, we're gonna have to dive in that baby and conduct a logical investigation. You know, because I mean, you're gonna have to start interviewing people, sources. It could be sources that tell you. It may be the government leaking it. I don't know. Um. Social media, news coverage, it's just so. I would say that could, that could get it out there, maybe let you know, but there's so much fake stuff on there now.

• 1:49:00Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:01Speaker 02

  And I'm sorry, there's so many people, if you got a camera and a microphone, you can get you a YouTube channel. That does not mean it's the truth.

• 1:49:09Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:10Speaker 02

  For the love of all this holy man. I mean, there's like new stuff. It looks legit. It's like, we blew up this many boats today in Sacramento. I'm looking at Fox, I'm looking at, I'm looking at, I'm like, I'm looking at all the main things. I'm going, this would be worldwide news. Or is it, am I getting into the conspiracy thing? Or are you looking, say, ah, man? It's just so weird now. And I think it's just gonna get worse.

• 1:49:35Shawn Ryan?

  What signs suggest migration is being used as political leverage?

• 1:49:42Speaker 02

  Oh, man, I'd rather do this over a beer when that camera's rolling.

• 1:49:48Speaker 02

  Always, man, you always try to, they try to pin you, you know? Or are you conservative or are you liberal? Uh.

• 1:49:59Speaker 02

  Well.

• 1:50:04Shawn Ryan?

  Did you see anything like that?

• 1:50:06Speaker 02

  Man, the open border thing's political. Yeah. That's under, under whatever regime, you know, it's, because I worked down there. I know that. Even during COVID, even during COVID, when they shut down, they shut down the checkpoints. Like, I'm talking to my peers and mentors and people I've been blessed to mentor. And they're like, no, there's nobody working the checkpoint. I go, nobody's working the checkpoint? They go, no. And I go,

• 1:50:29Speaker 02

  I wonder how long that took to get to the cartel. Yeah, because of COVID. And then they start, okay, well, we'll work first shift. Or we're gonna work two shifts, but we're not gonna man third shift. That's like, it's literally like ants at a picnic. How long does it take them to figure out where the food's at? And there's a conga line going right there, right? It's the same thing. We drove one night, uh, my partner, who ended up becoming an FBI agent, he was border patrol agent at the time. We drove out to Hebronville because they apprehended a load from a group we were asking about. And we're like, okay, this is a good opportunity. We pulled in and we're like, uh, when we pulled in, we're like, we didn't go through a checkpoint to get here. I mean, we got, it's like two in the morning, but I'm like, we walk in, he's border patrol, goes, hey, why come this one isn't manned?

• 1:51:10Speaker 02

  Uh, we're understaffed. It's literally like five minutes before the cartel knows. And if it's safe, if the road's 101, they go, everybody take 101. It's unmanned right now. So even if you're working two shifts at Foul Furius checkpoint, I guarantee you, you're sitting in the brush watching. All right? Yep. Lights are going off, reverse lights on. Okay, they're leaving. Let's go.

• 1:51:33Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:51:34Speaker 02

  I mean, we, we really had no idea what was coming in.

• 1:51:38Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:38Speaker 02

  But if you wanna talk political, I mean, yeah, I think there's an argument to be made if you,

• 1:51:45Speaker 02

  politicians and votes. I'm sure there's a country song out there about it.

• 1:51:52Speaker 02

  Pretty sure Charlie Daniels did it. And it might be something to do with a long-haired country boy.

• 1:51:58Shawn Ryan?

  So where do we go from here? Is this,

• 1:52:02Shawn Ryan?

  is this where you go to FBI undercover training?

• 1:52:04Speaker 02

  Sure. Yeah, because we talked about the cartel and stuff. I mean, when I came up to Tennessee as a case agent, we did a lot of the opioid stuff. We shut down four pill mills here. But we can get into the meat now.

• 1:52:17Shawn Ryan?

  Let's do it.

• 1:52:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. You wanna go, I don't know what you wanna go first. You wanna go outlaws? That's a big one. The white supremacy is a big one, but murder for hires, uh, public corruption.

• 1:52:26Shawn Ryan?

  Go outlaws.

• 1:52:27Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:52:31Speaker 02

  Bam. Ready?

• 1:52:33Shawn Ryan?

  Let's do it.

• 1:52:33Speaker 02

  Let's do it. Let's take a little, take a little sip of this high quality H2O.

• 1:52:43Speaker 02

  Um, so somewhere around 2005-ish, um, in the FBI, well, let me, let me, let me start this way. I got certified as an undercover. In 2002, I finally got certified as an undercover. I'd actually already done

• 1:53:01Speaker 02

  some undercovers because I got transferred out of New York City to San Antonio on what they call a specialty undercover. Because I was full-time undercover. And when they did the renewal, you know, at six months, they're doing a renewal, they're, they're planning out the next, we need this budget, we need this, we need this. And then that, they wrote Scott's full-time, transfer him to the San Antonio division. So that goes back to me talking about the nine 11. So as soon as I could fly, I went, but I didn't, um, I didn't lose my transfer.

• 1:53:33Speaker 02

  But even though I'd done those undercovers, uh, I wasn't certified yet. Uh, I, I got, I got specific case approval to be undercover on that case because of my background and being anarch and all that stuff. So I finally get a slot in the school and I go and, um, I won't give away everything about the school, but it's pretty well-known. It's two weeks, no days off, and we're big on sleep deprivation. Like that first, that first four days, five days, if they're still running it the way we did from 2002 to 2022, um, it's a, it's a booty kicker. But as you know, with your training and stuff, some people, some people say that's the hardest certification in the FBI. I say HRT.

• 1:54:18Speaker 02

  I'll, I'll say the UC school is probably second. Um, but HRT, Hostage Rescue Team, that's our tier one. I mean, we've got numerous former Navy SEALs, uh, that have come into the FBI and go to HRT, Greenbrace, all kinds of spec ops. Or it could just be a former cop like me, SWAT, and you, and you go there. Um, that is a two-week tryout. Sleep deprivation as well, but it's very, very physical. So really, I don't know of too many that have ever made the team on their first tryout. You're just trying to get through that two-week tryout without getting injured. You wanna complete the course, you know? But the UC school is, is more on the mind game stuff, right? Um, I have seen people not to F out.

• 1:55:01Speaker 02

  I would have never known it, even though I'm a moderate psych, I'd, some people, if you take their schedule and you twist it sideways and upside down, and they don't get the same meals at the same time, they don't get to work out at the same time, they don't get to nap or use the bathroom at the same time, for a couple of days in a row, some people just, oh, fuck off. You know, and I'd never would have, I never would have known it had I not seen it. And, uh, but that's integrity, that, that's good for the school. It's not hazing. Um, I have never seen 100% graduation rate. I never knew of one. Prior to me or after me, or during the time I was there. And it's not a hazing thing, it's just that some people aren't cut out for undercover.

• 1:55:43Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:43Speaker 02

  You might be the best case agent in the world. You might be the best firearms instructor in the world, best firearm shooter. Maybe not cut out for undercover work. So I got certified and I mean, I'm in.

• 1:55:52Shawn Ryan?

  What, there's approximately 11,000 FBI agents, at least 600 undercover?

• 1:55:59Speaker 02

  Something like that. The, what we used to say for years, the numbers fluctuate, but it would be like, out of 11,000 agents, say 600 are certified undercovers. And then if you say, out of those certified undercovers in the FBI, how many of you have been the primary undercover on one? Just one. And it's gonna dwindle down. More than one, less than five, it's gonna dwindle down. More than five, less than 10, now we're getting down. You get to the 10 and over, we probably all know each other because we're participating at the UC school, we're involved in the program. Everybody knows my big, I was big country. We got Gator, we got, we got all kinds, you know? Uh, but everybody starts knowing you and then you start recruiting and using.

• 1:56:38Speaker 02

  Now, there's gonna be new people coming in and old people leaving, but for the most part, you've got this crew. And, uh, really, uh,

• 1:56:48Speaker 02

  Apropos, because we're getting ready to talk about one percenter bikers. Uh, they say that if you're an undercover in law enforcement, you're a one percenter. Cause only one percent does undercover.

• 1:56:56Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:56:58Speaker 02

  And, um, yeah, so I, I, I go to the school and I've got like Joe Piston, like the Donnie Brasco.

• 1:57:06Shawn Ryan?

  No shit?

• 1:57:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's my, that's my, I mean, he's still a friend. As a mentor and a friend now, I call him boss man. Uh, he's helped me a lot with all this kind of stuff since retiring. Um, but, uh, yeah, and I was supposed to be with him in June. I was supposed to be with him, uh, we were going to be teaching somewhere, but I got the Donnie Brasco. And let me tell you what I did when I went to the UC school. I was the last one to leave. I didn't care if I slept or not. I didn't care, man, I was so, so in it, man. So, uh, everybody that came would talk, I was just like, oh, you know, it's so cool. I was trying not to be a fanboy on the outside, but on the inside, definitely was. But they'd kick me out of the, they'd kick me out of the drinking room. I'd be like putting up trash. They're like, kid, go, go to bed.

• 1:57:51Speaker 02

  I'm like, okay, but let me ask you about this, you know? If you're going to sit here and talk to me, I'm going to be a sponge. So I get certified and then, uh, on paper, I'm a white guy with no foreign language. I may not jump out at a whole lot, you know? Grew up landscaping and played ball and was a cop and a bouncer. Um, but you start, I, I start trying to network, start trying to get my name known and, and, or at least find work is what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to find work and, uh, I got to, uh, they, they finally called me and said, hey, do you want to role play at the undercover school? And I was like, absolutely. So, uh, when I went to role play, um, so that's just for the scenarios at night, right?

• 1:58:35Speaker 02

  Um, you're going to be an undercover and we're going to be doing live scenarios where you're the student coming in and trying to do good, learn, you know, you may die and you gotta do another one. But I started role playing and then that's when people started getting to know me. Cause even if they hadn't seen, they haven't seen you work undercover, they can watch you in a scenario with, interact with people and maybe, maybe they're a senior undercover and they're not just there to be at the school to teach and, and role play or be a counselor. They're actually, they're recruiting for their division because they know the case is coming up and they need somebody with your skillset. So, um, I do all that and then I used to call the unit like once a week and I'd go, hey, you got anything for any rednecks? From no foreign language? And they, next week we go, they'd be like, hey, supervisor such and such.

• 1:59:20Speaker 02

  I go, hey, what's going on? It's country, country. What are you doing? You got anything for any rednecks from no foreign language? And, uh, that's when they finally invited me to this school. But, um, uh, eventually, uh, you know, people start getting to know you and it turns out that there was going to be, uh, uh, they had an investigation, a case going in Massachusetts on a couple of chapters of the Outlaws Motorcycle Club up there. Um, that's a one percenter club and I know you've already had one percenters, former one percenters on this show, but for the listeners, uh, one percenter means it, the, the, the term was coined after Vietnam. Uh, a lot of, you biker clubs started forming after like World War II and stuff like that.

• 2:00:04Speaker 02

  But after Vietnam, um, it should be pretty well known to everybody that when the soldiers came back, they weren't treated that well. They weren't welcomed back. Um, a lot of them were getting into, uh, biker clubs and were doing some nefarious, rowdy type stuff. To the point, I guess it was garnering so much attention that the president of the AMA, the American Motorcycle Association, I think is what it was called then, came out and did this media blitz and said, listen, 99% of all motorcycle riders are good law abiding citizens. It's only 1% of their bad. And they took that as a badge of honor and they became one percenters. So, um, they had an investigation going on up there, uh, and I got, I can't remember if I got canvassed in an email

• 2:00:48Speaker 02

  or I saw the canvas or somebody called me, but it was probably more of a word of mouth thing. And, uh, I talked to them and I don't know how many people they interviewed for possible undercovers for the case, but it's almost like an audition, you know? And, uh, I went up there and then they picked me.

• 2:01:06Shawn Ryan?

  If you've been listening to the show for a while, you know, this is something I care about. We've had regenerative farmers and health experts on. We've talked about soil health, clean water, glyphosate, food security, and how disconnected most Americans are from where their food actually comes from. Might be time to start paying some attention. We've talked about foreign ownership of American farmland, China. We even did an episode that called out the government for selling off public lands in Utah. And when you start looking at all of it together, you realize there's a lot going on between the land, the food supply, and the people who are actually trying to produce real food in this country. And that's why I trust Moink.

• 2:01:51Shawn Ryan?

  Moink was started by Lucinda, an eighth generation family farmer to help small, independent family farms ship high quality meat directly to your door. We're talking wild caught salmon, grass fed and grass finished beef, pasture raised pork, grass fed lamb, and pasture raised chicken. And this is the kind of meat you actually want to feed your family. It's antibiotic free. They do not use growth hormones and they do not feed GMO grains. And they're not adding solutions to the chicken or sugar to the bacon. Moink connects you back to the source. You're not just buying meat from some giant supply chain and hoping for the best.

• 2:02:36Shawn Ryan?

  You're supporting independent family farms that care about the land, the animals, and the quality of the food they produce. When you purchase from Moink, you're not just getting better meat for your family. You're making a real, meaningful impact on family farms all across America. Please give it a try. Join the mission to fight for the family farm because you know what? They fight for us. Go to moinkbox.com slash SRS and get free chicken wings in every box for a year. As long as you're a paying customer. That's moinkbox.com slash SRS.

• 2:03:18Shawn Ryan?

  What are they looking for?

• 2:03:20Speaker 02

  Uh, I guess number one, that you can go in there and hold yourself upright with that kind of crowd. Um, I remember, I remember being peppered, man, in the beginning because it was like DEA, ATF, us, the FBI, state and local. Um, but as the case went on, I think it was just, there was a DEA agent that was on our team. Um, and, uh, and then we had like three on our team. That's the thing, in the beginning of a case, it's all passionate. Everybody's there, everybody wants to be a part of it. If that thing's still going 30 days later, a lot of people start losing passion, trickling off. But if it's your case, you're the case agent, you're going to work it. So I got up there, um, they were, we, we were going over like game plans.

• 2:04:05Speaker 02

  Um, so maybe they were looking for that. It's like, how would you do this? And I'm like, well, based on my experience, um, let's say, let's say you've got somebody. Uh, there are cases where you may have a source and that source can introduce me, you know? Hey, this is my good friend Scott. Well, that's good, but it could be bad too. It could be bad if you look at like a Donnie Brasco situation where Lefty is the one that brought him into the mafia. If it turns out that they think Donnie, Joe Piston is a snitch or a fed, they're probably not going to tell Lefty. Because Lefty's the one that brought him in. But what if he came in by himself? And that's kind of what I said. I said, look, I think I would rather go in cold.

• 2:04:49Speaker 02

  And by going in cold, I mean, I don't have a source introducing me, nothing. I'm just going to be, let me, let me build my story. And my story was that I was a site survey specialist, um, because I could transition to that from landscaping pretty easy. I could sell it, make it look real. I could actually go to the clerk of court, I could pull records, four point survey, whatever I'm doing, right? Um, but it allows me to travel and that was my legit reason for being in Massachusetts. But they gave me a lot of intelligence, um, like, uh, there was one member whose road name was Spanky. And they said that he just loved to be surrounded by big dudes and loved to be the center of attention. And they were spot on on that and I used that to my advantage.

• 2:05:34Speaker 02

  But some other things were kinda hit and miss. Like, I ask him, I'm like, hey, we knew that they hung out at this bar called Foxy Lady. Foxy Lady, strip club. I'm not gonna say gentleman's club. Uh, but Foxy Lady, uh, and I'm like, can they wear their cuts in there? Their leather vests, for the listeners that don't know, um, with their colors, uh, whatever their patch is. And the answer was no, they can't. I'm like, oh, man, this is gonna be, that's gonna not be hard at all. For me, I'm just thinking in my head, I'm like, I'm gonna be in a bar, other than he sounded like a redneck, uh, I'm like, I'm gonna be in a bar, having a drink, listen to heavy metal music, I'm a tattooed dude,

• 2:06:14Speaker 02

  there's naked people running around, next to a dude, just like me, same thing. But when they all came in, they were all wearing their colors. So luckily, what I did is before I ever did, before I ever was gonna see them or bump them, I went to that bar a couple of times, just to make it, just work it for hours, just go in there and be me. Because human nature will exaggerate anyway. You know, the fish was this big, the 10th time you tell the story, it was a whale. So by the time, by the time they're coming in, and I know, cause the case team, cover team's telling me, alright, they're leaving the clubhouse, looks like they're coming over, um, yeah, they're headed to Foxy Lady. I'm like, alright,

• 2:06:58Speaker 02

  now's my time. I've laid the groundwork, I've, I've got my backstory, and here it is. So when they walk in and take that whole back bar, and it's just a sea of black leather and testosterone, it changes my approach now. I mean, what am I gonna do, walk out and go, hey, you, you boys ride? You know, you know, what I'm saying? Nothing? Alright, I'm out. They start beating you up. Um, but I, I had a group of people that I was already befriending or talking to at the bar, and, uh, I was telling jokes and they were laughing, and I could see, I could see peripheral, I could see that, uh, it was eating Spanky up. Like a little big laughter, ah, how you see Spanky? He'd be like, what the hell's

• 2:07:40Speaker 02

  going on over there, man? Who is that dude? Who is that dude? Well, what he's doing is he's asking the bartender, hey, who is that guy? Oh, that's Scott, he comes here all the time, he's from Texas. I didn't go there all the time, but she knows me, right? So that's, that's that whole, your legend, your backstory, you, it has to be real, has to look real, has to pass the, the sniff test, right? So eventually, it aggravates him enough to where he yells over to him, and he's like, hey, where the F are you from? And I'll say some stupid joke, and he laughs, and then we're giggling and whatever, I'm like, oh, man, cool, man, I go back over, I'm playing hard to get, and, uh, he sends

• 2:08:19Speaker 02

  a drink, or calls me over, and, uh, and eventually, I go over and I talk to him. And it's, uh, braggadocious, a lot of that, and, uh, he gives me some business cards, he said, hey, man, we've got the, uh, Northeast Regional coming up, the Lobster Fest, Lobsta, Lobsta Festival. And, uh, he said, if you're gonna be in town, come back, tell them you're my guy, and all this stuff. Well, there was another guy I met that night, named Scott Town, and this dude was jacked. Um, and by jacked, I mean, very muscular, for listeners that don't know. Big dude, big muscular dude. So I, I remember going to the bathroom,

• 2:09:00Speaker 02

  and, and the Foxy Lady, and again, for listeners that don't know, like, especially in a guy, if you're in a bar, and you go to a guy's bathroom, and you walk up to the urinal, there's usually like a box, a Plexiglas, then it's got like ads for this dancer's coming, or don't forget Clamp Strip Friday, or something like that, you know, Car Wash Sunday, or whatever they got. So I'm looking in that reflection of that glass, and this, and the bathroom door swings open, and I see Scott through the reflection, and I'm watching him, I'm already making notes of my, I'm like, gray, gray t-shirt with black rim, uh, rim, rimming on it, uh, he's totally sleeved out tattoo, left arm, three big ass earrings, you know, I'm going through this whole thing, and I'm watching him, he looks at the stalls,

• 2:09:44Speaker 02

  he's looking under the stalls, and he's pushing the stalls, making sure nobody's in there. And I'm like, oh, he starts walking towards me, and I'm like, I think I'm getting ready to get jumped, I think, it's for a split second, cause he's, he's clear, he's made sure there's nobody else in the bathroom. And for that split second, I thought, I, I better hurry and finish and zip this thing up, cause I don't wanna be fighting, I don't wanna be fighting with my, with my, uh, privates outside my zipper, you know? That was, uh, Something About Mary, yeah, we got a bleeder. I'd be like, oh, my gosh. Yeah. How'd you get the bean on top of the frank? Yeah. Uh, so I, he walks up, and I thought, man, I'm getting ready to get jumped, I kinda even, and then he's like, so where'd you say you're

• 2:10:27Speaker 02

  from? And I'm like, oh, I'm from McAllen. He goes, oh, I'm familiar with that. He goes, I did, uh, used to fight dogs. Yeah, I was down in Brownsville, man, that's how I go. Yeah, what else? We were still talking. Oh, yeah, I, I grew up in South Carolina. What part? Greenville. Oh, man, I was in Spartanburg, all this. That's what I'm saying. Had I been bluffing, he could've caught me right there. You need to know, right? On a funny side note, I used to say I was a landscaper all the time. So here I am in McAllen, it's been a long time since I landscaped. Even when I flew with Scott Payne, I wouldn't tell anybody who I was, you know? So I'm next to a very nice elderly lady, well dressed. We're flying from McAllen to Houston. She says, what do you do? I said, well, I'm a

• 2:11:09Speaker 02

  landscaper. She starts questioning me so hard, so fast, peppering me, I, it was like, it was like I was getting knocked out. To, she, she blew my cover so bad, that I literally turned to her and said, ma'am, I apologize, I lied to you, I'm actually an FBI agent. And I thought to myself, don't everybody, don't tell nobody you're a landscaper anymore. Cause she's skilled you. What about this tree? Oh, you know, and this kind of, this year, it doesn't grow, and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, maybe I'll just go without plant, and I can keep up the maintenance. Maybe that's what I'll do. So he questions me, and, uh, we start to get to know each other. So by the time I come back for the Lobster Fest, uh, I'm already getting to know Scott pretty good, and I end up going

• 2:11:50Speaker 02

  with him. Um, and I remember walking in, again, you gotta have an entrance, you go in, it was the Brockton Clubhouse, uh, live music, um, all kinds of stuff. And then you're being scrutinized. I mean, every time you meet somebody new, whether the, whether this whole chapter knows you, and can vouch for you, you go to the Daytona Run, you go to the Sturgis Run, you go to another clubhouse, and you, this close, you got a president going, who the F is this? And how did he end up in Massachusetts? So whatever you say on day one, it could be two years from now, it better match. Yeah. So you're planting that seed, and you need to know it. Um, so as the case went on, uh, I meet the president

• 2:12:33Speaker 02

  of the chapter, Joe Dogs, and, uh, they have an enforcer there, named Clothesline. That's their, that's their street names, their road names. Um, but through the case, uh, it starts coming out that I'm a criminal too. Um, shocker. Uh, and we started kinda light, um, they're already predicated, and that's a big thing. People are like, well, how can you do, look, if the dude's already, we've already worked a case, we know they're selling dope, we've documented they're selling dope, well, I can go up to you and talk to you about dope. But if I've never met you before, and all of a sudden, we think we're gonna make you a target, and, hey, uh, uh, I'm gonna give you a kilo of cocaine for free, well, maybe you're broke, maybe, now we're getting into some entrapment stuff, right? But if you're

• 2:13:16Speaker 02

  predicated, and you've already, we've already shown that you do this kinda stuff, then, then we're good, um, for the most part, uh, to get the case going, right, and start the investigation. So I started laying out this legend that I was a high-ranking member, or if not, the leader of an international theft ring. So I knew, because I was on the border, and I worked with Texas DPS, um, Border Patrol, uh, even for my own insurance. I know that, what I said earlier, a four-by-four V8s, and, uh, Harley-Davidson stolen all the time, all the time. So I knew that was popular. And I did a little, we, we did

• 2:13:58Speaker 02

  a little dog and pony show, where I got Joe Dogs with me one night, and we go out, and he sees me meet a truck driver, he sees me pay cash to the truck driver, he sees me with what would appear to be a truckload of stolen equipment, and that's the way I portrayed it as such. I even give him some, you know? Um, and then he's like, oh, man, you make a pretty good lick on that? And I'm like, yeah, not too bad. He goes, all I saw was power tools. I said, exactly. Just let him wonder. Just let him wonder. Um, so then it becomes to where it's insurance fraud. And that's where we started, really starting to do some stuff. They would report their motorcycle stolen, they get their insurance money, I would buy the motorcycles at a stolen price from them, which is usually 20 to 25%

• 2:14:41Speaker 02

  of actual cost. And then that happens, nobody goes to jail, builds some trust. Then it's, hey, when you coming back, Tex, they nicknamed me Tex, uh, when you coming back, Tex, I'm like, I don't know, man, a couple of weeks? I can be up there, why, what you got? I got some things lined up. Okay, what you got? Let me know. And then we got to where I'd come into town, and they would have like F350s, uh, 2500 diesels, and we're loading them on the semis. And then it keeps going, and I'm gaining more and more trust with that kinda stuff. But now also on the side, there's a lot of grenade, and, and rocket launcher, whatever, talk, and, and fully automatic weapon talk, some things come to

• 2:15:23Speaker 02

  fruition, some things don't. But the biker war's still going on during this stuff. I know you just had, uh, uh, a former Hell's Angel on, that was, that's, that was the arch rivals of the outlaws, and vice versa. Boston and north was Hell's Angel territory. Boston south was outlaw territory till about Cape Cod. What the outlaws were trying to do, is they wanted to set up a new chapter in Cape Cod, but they needed to stack it with big, what they were saying, big jack dudes that could protect themselves, and fight for the club. And they were trying to recruit me and Scott for that, cause Scott was a big dude, and I guess they thought I was big at that time. And they were gonna try to recruit us to become outlaws, and we'd be a part of that Cape Cod chapter to

• 2:16:06Speaker 02

  fight the Hell's Angels. So, um, and there's all kinds of inter-gang stuff that goes on, like, uh, Scott even had one, you go beat the colors off of a Hell's Angel, so when you go do your criminal activity, you wear the Hell's Angels cut, to make it look like the Hell's Angels are doing it, not the outlaws. Or if you go retaliate against another club, and you're wearing that Hell's Angel cut, stuff like that happens. So, let me see where I'm at in the story. Alright.

• 2:16:37Speaker 02

  So now I'm getting to more and more trust. Uh, but during this, we've got during the two years, it was a two year case, but during the two years, we had a Hells Angel president murdered. Um, I don't know if they ever proved it was outlaws. If we would have taken the case Rico, we, we could have wrapped up a lot more people, but that's up to the US Attorney's Office, not me. Um, but we did know that it was Bridgeport, Connecticut, and we do know that the shooters were in a green truck with Florida plates. We also knew that hell, I mean, the outlaws from Florida were up in the area because they were staying with my crew. Um, and when that happened now, we're there, the case team is doing wiretaps.

• 2:17:22Speaker 02

  Um, I'm over there, I'm calling, I'm dirtying it up. I'm talking to them like, hey, what's going on? They're like, man, it's hot here right now. If you come, you need to be, you need to be packing and, and be, have a vest. I go, I don't want to travel that shit. If I get there, will you throw me something? Like, yeah, cool, you know? Um, and you're getting that intel. Uh, we've got the, it might've been retaliation for that, but Sturgis, uh, they called it, hey, all outlaws are going to Sturgis, get your shit and go. And we all went out to Sturgis the day I got there. Two outlaws, I'm sorry, two Hells Angels, uh, I think from Canada, shot five outlaws at point blank range and at a gas station.

• 2:18:03Speaker 02

  I think it was a gas station, but it, it was like two, two old ladies, a prospect, I think, and two patch members. And there were some serious wounds, like paralyzed, paralyzed from the waist down, you know? That's one of those where the case team's like, go on out there. I'm like, I'm not going out there wearing their outlaw stuff. They're shooting people, you know? I got enough holes. So all that's going on during this case, well, I'm building trust. And now it gets to where, hey, Tex, we carjack somebody. Now they're, they're coming to me after taking a vehicle at gunpoint from somebody. That's a, that's a serious charge and they're telling me, we need to get rid of this thing. It is hot. I said, I got it. Now they're trusting my truck drivers. Truck driver pulls up, we put it on there.

• 2:18:47Speaker 02

  I said, don't worry about whether it was OnStar or LoJack, whatever it was back then. Um, I say, my guys will take care of it. And that's what started happening more and more. And, and we were filling the warehouse up with stolen vehicles and property and all kinds of stuff. Um, we're getting intelligence that they've been doing home invasions. Um, uh, almost killed a guy, uh, things like that. Extortion, definitely running dope. But if you look at the Taunton chapter, that's the main one I infiltrated. Taunton and Brockton are right next to each other. But the Taunton chapter, really out of like 13 to 15 guys, I think like one and a half had a job.

• 2:19:28Speaker 02

  I mean, I, as far as I know, one had a towing company, the other one was a tattoo artist and piercer, and I don't think he worked all the time. Pretty much everybody else, at least the ones I dealt with, they were straight thugs. No job, just by, by criminal means, making your money. Damn. Whether that's break-ins, I mean, one of them said, you don't ever show up without your dues, money. You gotta pay your dues. I don't care if, uh, he's like, I don't care if on my way here, I don't have my money and I see an old lady walking down the street, I'll go over there and knock her out and take her, take her purse, you know? So I can pay my dues. And I'm like, man, keep talking.

• 2:20:06Speaker 02

  So all that's going on, I'm gaining more trust, but one, the, one of the main things that's happening is me and Scott Town are bonding. We are bonding like, it is insane. I mean, out of any case I've ever done in 28 years of law enforcement, never bonded this tight with somebody. I mean, we finished each other's sentences. We love pretty much the same stuff. I mean, fighting, drinking, lifting, tattoos, motorcycles, having a good time, you know? Uh, literally it's that story of the proverbial fork in the road.

• 2:20:48Speaker 02

  Like I think at that proverbial fork in the road, he went that way and I went that way. I easily could have gone that way. That could easily be me. Um, and I was raised good. He liked it. Yeah, but I mean, that's, I'm like, that could easily be me. I could have made one wrong choice and went that way. Maybe that's why I was good at, at least the groups that I infiltrated, you know? That's my skill set, you know, me, but it gets to a point to where if the case team was worried about my safety, they'd be like, hey, you can't put it in the operations plan, you know? You can't put in an FBI operations plan. Scott Town's going to be there tonight. You can't do that because he's a target. But they would ask, is Big Scotty going out with you tonight? Oh yeah, he's going to be there.

• 2:21:33Speaker 02

  And everybody'd be like, cool, cool. Because see, they knew how much he loved me and I loved him, you know? Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to the dark side. I'm not leaving the FBI and becoming a turncoat or whatever, but I am human. And you're looking at this dude and you're like, man, uh, he told me, he goes, man, I, he was patch, he was patching in and he was also working with the mafia. And somebody got snagged on something and he said he was looking at time. And he said he backed away from it because he's got four daughters at that time and he didn't want anybody, he didn't want, he didn't want to go to prison. Um, and you hear that and I'm befriending this dude, but I know if I'm in a clubhouse

• 2:22:15Speaker 02

  or I, I need backup, there could be three SWAT teams outside that door. I can show you all kinds of videos where bad guy walks in and eight shots are shot before that door not even turns, you know? So if you think you're, if you, if the only reason you're doing undercover is because you're like, oh, I know I got three SWAT teams outside, I'd, I'd say that's the wrong reason. Because if the crap hits the fan, it's really on you. Yeah. You know, and a lot of times they might just be avenging your death, you know? Um, but if Scott was there, I felt comfortable too, because I, I trusted him that much. I knew he'd have my back. He didn't know who Scott Payne was, but he loved Scott Callaway.

• 2:22:55Speaker 02

  And Scott Callaway was not too far from who I am in real life, so, um, but we are bonding. And there's one point in the case and I'm like, I'm, I'm rocking his daughter. And at that time, his youngest daughter was one and my youngest daughter was one. So if you've been around kids, that developmental stage, they kind of move the same, make the same noises. So it's, I, it's easy for me to picture my daughter while I'm rocking his daughter. And I'm like, man, it's going through my head. I'm like, dude, I really like this guy. I mean, it sucks because a lot of people, you ask them what undercover is, and some people will be like, well, you're pretending to be something you're not. Um, you're lying, you're acting.

• 2:23:37Speaker 02

  The true definition of undercover work is you're creating relationships that you're going to betray. And it sucks if you look at it that way. You have to figure out how you're going to do that and rationalize it in your mind so it doesn't have an adverse impact on your psyche. Damn. Uh, so whatever, whatever you gotta do, you know? Uh, I don't know, to each their own. But as I'm rocking his daughter, I'm like, man, he likes this, I like that. He likes this, I like that. He likes this, I like that. His daughter looks like my daughter. And I'm looking and I'm staring and again, it's not like I'm having doubts, like I'm going to turn dark, I'm going to be a one percenter. Uh, but I'm looking at his refrigerator. His refrigerator had all kinds of magnets and stickers and stuff on it.

• 2:24:19Speaker 02

  And my eyes focused in and I already said, I'm a believer, I'm a Christ follower. Um, but you see the bands a lot of times in the Christian community, WWJD, what would Jesus do? WWJD, what would Jesus do? And I look on the refrigerator and I see WWSD and I focus and I'm like, what would Satan do? And I was like, we ain't alike, you going to jail. I'm back, I'm back. But, uh, yeah, I think he was just, I think he was doing it to bust chops though, but I was like, Satan? Well, I don't think so, buddy. Them days are over. I left that back in Greenville, South Carolina when I walked to church on Sunday morning, sweating, wringing of beer.

• 2:25:00Speaker 02

  But, um, as the case went on, we were really, really tight. And, uh, so the case is growing. It's a year and a half now. Um, year and a half in, and I would say at this point, my closest relationship is Scott Town. My second closest relationship is Clothesline, the enforcer. My third is Joe Doggs, the president, and then trickles on down. Um, I've now been all over the place. We've gone, I can't remember if Miami was, I mean, if, uh, if Daytona was before that or not, but I know Sturgis, we've done all kinds of stuff. So.

• 2:25:40Speaker 02

  Was time to up the ante. Told you they're already predicated for dope. The first time I talked to Joe Dogs and he said, where are you from? I said, McAllen. He goes, where's that? I go, Texas, on the, on the border. It's like the border. And he, next question, how much can you get a kilo of cocaine for? I was like, it goes for about thirteen right now down there. He goes, man, if I can get them for thirteen. I go, no, no, no, you don't get them for thirteen up here. It costs more up here because they have to be brought from the border up here. You want to come down there, you might be able to get them for thirteen. But, so now I start laying out this, uh, because we've done all this stuff. They've seen my operations. They've seen, you know, they've invited me in to do stuff. They're, they're asking me to become an outlaw. Um, I'm in their clubhouse all the time.

• 2:26:24Speaker 02

  And I said, like I said, go on trips with them. And now we're up in Annie. Now I lay out this elaborate story that takes time. But essentially what they end up learning is that I did used to be in the dope game. And I got out because they popped people in my group and the heat was getting too close. I've already explained everything about me moving stuff south. They think I'm taking all this stolen equipment south. Well, I've only, I've only stated what's true. Like if, if a grenade goes for this much here, it goes for this much in Mexico. I'm working with all this cars. If the truck, if a semi truck is headed south, a lot of times if law enforcement is looking for money going south,

• 2:27:08Speaker 02

  money or guns, like we talked about earlier. But if it was a truck full of stolen vehicles, I played it off to the outlaws like, so what's the big deal? Maybe you seize the truck, maybe you seize the vehicles, but if it's a valid bill of laden, well, how's a truck driver supposed to know? He's just picking up cars. He looks at them, you gonna take him to jail? Played it like that. But I did let them know that I used to be in the dope game. And they know I got truck drivers. They know I deal with the cartel or they believe this anyway. Um, and I explained to them, in case anybody was wondering, how come the gringo has not been booted out of this Mexican, really op, mainly Mexican operation? And my story was, is that I was the guy who had the dirty contacts at the checkpoints and at the port of entry. Because there is corruption.

• 2:27:54Speaker 02

  Not sure. Yes, because FBI works public corruption. And down there you would get, you would get the border patrol agent who gets fifteen grand to just do this. Ten to fifteen grand to go. Next. I mean, if you're hurting for money. Yeah. And you're vulnerable and you are. Is that a lot down there? I, I don't say a lot because I want to say, I want to make it sound like everybody's dirty. You know, but, but yeah, corruption is an issue. Yeah. And, and even the small department, like what if you're a two, three man department and you make, I don't know, forty grand a year? Maybe some of your family members, if you grew up there, some of your family members might be working with the cartel.

• 2:28:35Speaker 02

  It's just, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a different, it's, it's different. It's different. And when you're working with a cartel, they value like, they don't, they don't value life like we value life. You know? So I tell them I'm not getting cut out because I'm the one that does that. That's all based on facts so I can sell it and make it look real. So now I'm laying out that I'm, I was in the dope game and I'm letting it because I've, again, Joe Dogs and several of them from day one, year and a half straight. Man, if I can meet a pipeline, if I can, man, if you can hook me up with somebody down, just put me on the phone with them, whatever. Maybe I come down and meet somebody because as a drug dealer, what do you want? You want the purest dope you can get for the cheapest price you can get it at?

• 2:29:16Speaker 02

  That way you can step on it, mix it up, double your money, maybe triple your money. Um, so as I'm laying this out, the breadcrumbs, so to speak, Joe jumps, starts picking up on it. Next thing you know, we've got a full blown plan to where he's going to get a chance to meet my cartel guy because we've got a dope load coming up. My truck drivers are driving it. We're going to take a dope load, uh, and we're going to meet a cartel coming from Canada. Uh, I laid out the story that I wasn't letting them drive into Canada because they lost their, they lost their inside person at the port of entry and I wasn't going to risk my guys going to jail. But if you want to come into the US, and that's kind of way it played out. Um, technique's been used a good bit.

• 2:30:00Speaker 02

  Matter of fact, as I'm laying all this out, the name I mentioned earlier, Jack Garcia, he had been doing, I didn't know it, he'd been doing a, uh, public corruption case. And somehow Boston was involved, even though he was down in the Fort Lauderdale area. But it was all over the news, drug protection, drug protection, FBI sting, drug protection. And I'm like, oh shit, that's what I'm trying to do, you know? And I'm like, so every time I tried to word it, Sean, I would, I would try to not use the words drug and protection. I'd be like, security, making sure it doesn't get ripped kind of thing. Um, but we up the ante and, and they believed that they were going to get a chance to meet my cartel member. And we laid it all out.

• 2:30:42Speaker 02

  So other undercovers came in and, uh, to help me. Um, much as I've helped other undercovers on their cases and stuff. And, uh, they didn't know it, but we had a thousand pounds of real weed and forty kilos of real cocaine. Now that means the SWAT team's going to be set up. There's going to be snipers in place watching this whole deal go down. Because can you imagine if forty kilos walked out in the street? That was our responsibility and one person got hurt off of one gram? That's our fault. Yeah. Right? So at this point, Scott and I are like connected at the hip. And it's the night before the operation.

• 2:31:24Speaker 02

  And again, a year and a half in, and we've been laying all this out. And the FBI, I'm sorry, the United States Attorney's Office was asking me, the Assistant United States Attorney, uh, Peter Levitt. He said, hey, Scott, are they talking about this stuff in the clubhouse? And I said, yeah, I mean, he says, make sure if you can, make sure we can get that on a recording. Cause I mean, if they're in the clubhouse talking about this drug protection and what roles they're going to be, it just helps with like asset forfeiture and search warrants and stuff like that. Um, so of course I said, yeah, I'm like, yeah, that's what we do. I'm going in to get the evidence. So Joe Dogs had told me, come over, but it was the night they have church. And for those that don't know, uh, a lot of your one percent, a lot of your clubs, period, have a mandatory meeting once a week.

• 2:32:09Speaker 02

  They refer to it as church. Some clubs, that's where they hide their phones, cut everything on, uh, airplane mode, go in, talk dirty business. Some is just shooting the bull. But he calls me over and it's the night they're having church. So I get to the clubhouse and I'm knocking on the door, I'm knocking on the door, I'm knocking, he's not coming. I'm like, man, what the hell? He opens the door like, hey, what is it? We're not ready yet. So I'm, I'm kind of being a smart ass. I'm like, well, then why'd you tell me to come over here? You know? So he says, hey, take this probate. Somebody's on probation, trying to become a full patch member. He says, uh, y'all go get something to eat and come back. So I'm like, all right. So go get something to eat, a drink or two, come back and we go in the clubhouse.

• 2:32:54Speaker 02

  Well, when we go in the clubhouse, um, for those that don't know, at least in this clubhouse, if you're not a patch member, you can't touch the door, you can't answer the phone. They respect me, they let me in there all the time. They give me drinks for free. Um, but that's the rules. And the door is a steel frame. Um, it's, of course, it's got dead bolts and locks on it, but they had taken, uh, they had welded two metal hooks onto the frame and laid like a metal bar across it. Kind of like a shipyard bar, you know? So from a breacher standpoint, it'd be a little bit of a tougher breach. Right? Maybe it's better to breach around the door than through the door, depending on what kind of tools and stuff you have. Um, so I'm in there and I'm cracking jokes.

• 2:33:38Speaker 02

  What you can't see is, um, I've got, I've got, uh, audio and video recording device. I've got a audio recording device. I've got a, I got all kinds of things on me. And, but somewhere in my clothing is, is one of the devices. And what you can't see is like, I'm at the bar and I'm, my, my body's facing this way. But I'm like looking right here. So I can't see what my camera's seeing. But after everything was over and I got to go back and watch all this stuff, what you see is me telling a joke and like, if I look down at Spanky and I'm like, hey, man, well, you know, because I'm a jokester, it's like, yeah, there's like, ah, we're laughing, laughing when I would turn.

• 2:34:23Speaker 02

  Stone face. I just didn't see it because I was looking, but you see, you see him like, you see him like, ah, that's funny too. That's funny. I didn't see it. I didn't pick up on it. Damn. Um, you got, you got a song by Leonard Skinner playing over the loudspeaker. And in the back, you got Chocolate Scott doing this. And at first you're like, oh, he's dancing. No, he's not dancing. He's warming up. He's doing it to the beat of the song, but he's warming up. And then, uh,

• 2:34:57Speaker 02

  About that time, clothesline, my second closest friend at the time, in the case, anyway. Connection, I should probably say. He says, hey Tex, can I talk to you for a minute? I've been in that clubhouse so many times. There's one door I never went in. I didn't know what was behind that door. And he says, can I talk to you for a minute? And I'm like, yeah. And as he's turning, he turns and opens the door. I'm right behind him. Chocolate Scott comes in right behind me and I go, ooh, that's not normal. And it's a tight stairwell. You go down to, I think the book says it's a basement. That's being really, really generous.

• 2:35:39Speaker 02

  More like a crossbar. I mean, I couldn't stand up straight, probably touched the wall on both sides, but you know, like a bench and stuff down there. And I think there was even a bedroom under there, like the basement area, but.

• 2:35:53Speaker 02

  So I get down there and I'm freaking out right now because I'm like, this is not good. This is not good at all. And one of the other outlaws comes down and I see him, I see him doing this. Like there was something I saw rope. I didn't see plastic on the floor, um, which I was looking for. And for listeners that may not know, in this type of world and environment, if you walk in kind of mafia style and you see plastic all over the floor, that's probably not a good sign for you. Because the whole idea is they kill you and they just grab the four corners and pick it up and no, no blood to clean up.

• 2:36:26Speaker 02

  So I saw rope. I didn't see plastic. And I hear him say, hey, let's go back upstairs for a minute. He's got to do something. I don't know what it was that was down there that that other member was trying to hide or get rid of. I don't know if it was dope weapons, what? I'm not sure. But then they bring me back down. So I'm upstairs and some people are like, why don't you try to leave? I go, I don't know. I mean, could I have gotten out the door? Eh, I don't know. 12 outlaws or so after their church meeting.

• 2:36:56Speaker 02

  So I'm looking at Joe Dogs and I'm burning holes through him because Joe Dogs is the president and he controls that whole clubhouse. And when he finally looks at me, I say something like, what's up? And he says something like, ah, don't worry about it. And then looks away. So then they come and they take me back down. Now they go down. They've already brandished their weapons. They brandished their weapons when they took me down the first time. They both got pistols. Um, pretty much you're not free to leave, right? Yeah, yeah. Another, another, another reason not to rush for the door. So I go down and that's when clothesline says, look, there's a lot of shit going on. It's my job to take care of my brothers because he's the enforcer. He says, I need you to write down your full name.

• 2:37:41Speaker 02

  Your full name, your date of birth, your social, your address, wife's name. He said, I'm not going to ask for your kids' names. Not like I can't find it, but I'm not going to ask for it. And, uh, and he says, and then I need you to take all your clothes off. Got to check you for a wire. Shit. Year and a half. And I was like, son of a, uh, because of the stress level, um, the oh shit moment, the oh crap moment, adrenaline dump, whatever you want to call it.

• 2:38:10Speaker 02

  For those that don't know, you, I think most adults have experienced it, even if it's in a car wreck. Everything slows down and goes in slow motion. You get auditory exclusion. Everything you hear sounds like you're underwater. It's going whoosh, whoosh, but it's slow. Scott, take off. And then you get time dilation in your eyes. Everything's clicking and screen grabs, not smooth. You can feel your heart beating through your whole body. My hamstrings get rubbery, you know? You, you, you have other parts of your body you feel like are right here, your throat, other parts of your body that are squeezing and clenching.

• 2:38:49Speaker 02

  I'm like, did you hear that? Did you hear that sound? That was me sucking the air out of the room. That's it. Cause I was like, oh no. But because of that and the stress, I forgot my middle name. So tactically, we always talk about bleed on the range. So you don't die in the street. We're working reps, working reps, working reps. So it becomes instinctive. Some people say muscle memory. I like to say you train till it becomes instinctive. I can show you video after video. I'm sure you can show me military gun toters, cops in shootouts. They have no idea how many rounds they shot. They have no idea that they did an effective magazine exchange. They have no idea they did behind cover, but they did it because they've been training it.

• 2:39:30Speaker 02

  So in the undercover world, you got to do a lot of that in your head. What ifs, or go role play at the school or try to get some reps in somehow.

• 2:39:39Speaker 02

  So I'm looking down at that thing and I'm going Scott Callaway, Scott Callaway, Scott Callaway. And I'm just going through this rolodex in my brain. It feels like it's forever. But it's not. I'm having an adrenaline dump. I'm going Scott Kelly, Scott Joseph Kelly. I'm like, no, that was the middle name of the first alias in 96, you know? I'm like, I'm going through it. While I'm doing that, I turn, I have no idea. I would have never believed it enough. I've not seen the recording. I turn and I go, and what else do you need? Although it's not that clear because I'm having my crap moment and I think I'm getting ready to get caught. It's more like, and what else do you need? With a higher pitched voice, my throat's tighter. He is like, should I ask what's going on? Um, and then I hear him yell up to the probate, what do you need for that website? And I go, oh, okay. Now they're going to search me. They're going to Google me.

• 2:40:23Speaker 02

  There's some websites back then, like who's a rat.com? Maybe they can cross reference and make sure I'm not a fed or a snitch. And, um, then I remember my initials and I was like, oh, okay. And I write down my name. Well, now I turn around and I take off all my, I take my boots off. I take all my upper body clothing off. And I dropped my jeans and underwear around my ankles. So from my ankles up, birthday suit, completely naked. And they checked me for a wire.

• 2:40:55Speaker 02

  Didn't really check too hard, uh, around my, my feet. But check me and I'm like, again, that adrenaline dump. I'm still down here. Now I'm coming out of that drilling dump and I'm feeling better because he's like, okay, he's not fine. He's like, all right, he's cool. Okay. Can you hug me? You know, now I'm cracking a joke. Can you hug me? But it's a defense mechanism too. And I'm scared. I'm scared shitless. And, uh, Fuck yeah. And he says, he says, yeah. And I think I'm good. I'm pulling my pants back up. I don't think I got my boots on yet. But then he grabs a piece of clothing and that piece of clothing had the recording device in it. And I thought I was done because my voice is coming back. You can hear me like starting to talk normal, breathing's a little better.

• 2:41:40Speaker 02

  And then he says, hey, I'm not going to find anything in here. I don't want to, right? Like some pictures of my old lady. And he laughs and he goes, my laugh is like, I hope not. I'm standing there on the wall, can't stand up straight and I'm watching him take this piece of clothing and he's going down it with his hands. And I'm like, he's going to feel it. Even though I got a thicker leather, either I got this, I did that, I did this, tried to put stuff somewhere. He's going to feel it. And, uh,

• 2:42:11Speaker 02

  as he's getting close, again, I don't know how to do it. You can hear in the recording though, I go,

• 2:42:20Speaker 02

  because I don't even know I'm doing it, but I'm just watching my, I'm watching my life. I'm like, here we go. I don't know what I want to do, you know? I mean, I can't even stand up straight. If I try to fight, I'm probably going to do a Tommy boy. Crack my head on a joyce to knock myself out anyway. But, um, he looks right at it and misses it. Are you serious? Yeah, right at it and misses it. And then, and then we're done. And I'm like, oh, thank you, sweet baby Jesus, you know? And, uh, then I'll just start talking business. Now that night,

• 2:42:53Speaker 02

  I, I was running on adrenaline. Yeah, I'll bet you were. And I was pissed. I shouldn't be pissed because I'm really not Scott Callaway. I'm really Scott paying an undercover FBI agent, but I took that shit personal. I'm like, you'd be my boy for a year and a half, but you got enough balls to take me down to a basement, strip me at gunpoint? Fair enough. I am an undercover, but, uh, you know, uh, so I went out, um, and a lot of people ask me, since I've been, I've been teaching this since like 2008. This whole outlaw thing. And I get asked a lot. They're like, man, what would you have said if he would have felt something? And I said, well, I only had two answers and I remember it like it was yesterday. My first one probably wouldn't have been a joke.

• 2:43:37Speaker 02

  Because he gave me that line. He's like, hey, not some pictures of my old lady, right? If he would have said, what is this? I'd have been like, I don't know. Some pictures of the old lady just to try to buy some time. Get him off, you know? Um, but the only other answer I have is this. The gig is up. I'm an undercover FBI agent. I can walk out of here and we can see each other in court or all hell's getting ready to break loose. Problem is this.

• 2:44:02Speaker 02

  To my knowledge, every time I'd been in that clubhouse, my team couldn't hear me. Whether it's walls, equipment, distance, who knew? But I would have been a bluff on my part. Um, but that night, when I went to hand in my stuff, at the end of the night, when the, when the shift's over, we meet at a predetermined location, I hand them all the recording equipment, maybe they give me more money for the next day. We do a quick debrief about what went down. Um, that night, when I rolled up, uh, I found out that they had heard everything. The two task force officers that were on the main case team, uh, one's a sergeant, uh, he's retired now, but Sergeant Higginbottom out of Massachusetts State Troopers, everybody called him Higgy. And then you got Detective Joe Cummings from Brockton PD. They started the shift on me.

• 2:44:47Speaker 02

  Whatever that first interaction between me and Joe Dogs was, it made them think something wasn't right. And what they, the way they told me is they had pulled close enough and they heard everything. And they heard me in the basement and they went ahead and vested up, strapped up. They called back to the office, Boston and said, you know, whoever was available, man.

• 2:45:09Speaker 02

  They got him in the basement and they're stripping him and he's wired to the hill and, uh,

• 2:45:12Shawn Ryan?

  Ish.

• 2:45:13Speaker 02

  So they tell me that they were all, everybody was coming, blue lights and siren. And, and the plan was that the task force officers came up with, excuse me, was they'd been in that clubhouse on law enforcement activity before, so they kind of knew the door. Um, they were going to drive the van into the cinder block wall right next to the door. If they felt like it was time to pull the trigger. Um, but even though my voice was clearly different, though they had heard it, they could tell I was scared. But I didn't break and they didn't pull the trigger and we lived to fight another day, but.

• 2:45:48Shawn Ryan?

  You guys didn't have a code word or anything?

• 2:45:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can, but if they can't hear me, I mean, mine is, you know, I'm out. I keep it simple, man. It's like, you know, I'd go on so many things and they're like, hey, uh, you got a code word? I go, yeah. If I yell help multiple times in a row, that's my code word. How about your physical code? You ever seen Platoon? If I look like Willem Dafoe running across the field, that's, that's my, that's my physical sign. But, uh, they just, they were listening and, and there's so many things that goes into that kind of training too. You can say, all right, uh, to give us a signal, pick your hat up, scratch your head. Never done it in your entire life. As soon as you start talking to the bad guy, you pick it up, scratch your head, you know? Everybody comes.

• 2:46:31Speaker 02

  But another thing, uh, the case agent was a buddy of mine, uh, we were in through the academy together, uh, as new agents. And he told me, he said, he said, Scott, and he said, man, when I was coming down that highway with blue lights on, he said, man, I felt like I was in there with you. I said, you weren't.

• 2:46:50Speaker 02

  I said, man, I was looking for a friendly face anywhere down there. Uh, and then there's a comic, well, I'll, I'll finish the comical part after I tell this, this is a kind of a sad part, but, um, or touchy. Um, at that point in my life, my daughters were three in one. I'd bought my wife was commonly referred to now as a burner phone, doesn't come back to anything. That way I could call her from my undercover phone. Um, and

• 2:47:16Speaker 02

  no matter what time it was, I would call her if I was on my way back to the hotel room, four in the morning, seven in the morning, didn't matter. Usually it was real quick. Just once you know I'm okay, I'm headed back to the hotel room. I'll call you when I wake up this afternoon. Okay. Sometimes we'd chat a little bit. That night when I called her, the first thing she said was, are you okay? The night of the basement. And I said, yeah, why? And she said, I don't know, but in McAllen, driving around tonight at such and such time, she goes, I just got this, she was had the girls, she was running errands or something. She said, I got this overwhelming feeling of fear for me. And she pulled everyone aside of the road and started praying for me. So I mashed it up and it was when I was in the basement.

• 2:47:57Shawn Ryan?

  Holy shit, man.

• 2:47:59Speaker 02

  Pretty wild. Pretty wild. I can't believe I got that. Usually I cry when I tell that story. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Um, but yeah.

• 2:48:10Shawn Ryan?

  Your daughters were three in one?

• 2:48:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:48:14Shawn Ryan?

  Were you thinking about them down there?

• 2:48:17Speaker 02

  In the basement, I was probably more in survival mode. I don't think I was, I don't think I, it was one of those things where I see my family flash before my eyes. I'm more like trying not to vapor lock, keep talking, keep listening, try to get some intelligence, keep, keep moving, trying to get out of this thing.

• 2:48:34Shawn Ryan?

  A lot of guys think getting healthier means adding more and more things to the routine. More supplements, more tracking, more protocols, more complicated systems. But the older I get, the more I think it comes down to getting the fundamentals right and supporting your body at the source. And that's why I've been using Armora colostrum. Armora colostrum is a bioactive whole food with over 400 bioactive nutrients that help support gut health, strengthen immune health, fuel performance and support overall vitality. Colostrum works at the cellular level, so you're supporting the systems your body already relies on every day. I've been using Armora colostrum and I've noticed a difference in how I feel overall,

• 2:49:18Shawn Ryan?

  especially with recovery and feeling stronger through demanding weeks. It's pure, potent, natural and clean. It's also physician founded, which I like because this is something I'm putting into my body every day. And I want it to come from a brand that takes the science seriously. We've worked out a special offer for my audience. Receive 30% off your first subscription order. Go to armra.com slash SRS or enter SRS to get 30% off your first subscription order. That's A R M R A dot com slash SRS.

• 2:49:53Shawn Ryan?

  So you didn't, you didn't think that you were a hundred percent dead?

• 2:49:57Speaker 02

  No, no, but I was scared shitless. And that's what people say, well, what would have happened if they found it? I don't know. Probably an ass whipping at, at a minimum. I don't know if they shot me or not, who knows? Mafia would have killed me, you know? They would have chopped me into pieces, but, uh, so I'll tell you this though. I started building that block of instruction because it was, it was my mentors that would call me after all this stuff happened. They're like, hey, country, as soon as you can, take care of yourself, you know? Put pen to paper about what you've learned through this whole thing, because that's how we pay it forward. And, and I was always been an instructor kind of anyway, so, um, I did and I loved it. But

• 2:50:41Speaker 02

  the entire time, I didn't, I mean, I watched that video over and over and over and over and over. And I'd get butterflies and all this stuff. And then finally after time passes, you, you can watch it with no problem. But it hit me. What song was playing the entire time I was in that clubhouse? It was give me three steps by Leonard Skinner. The whole premise of the song is a dude that's in a bad spot and he's trying to get out. Give me three steps, give me three steps, mister, give me three steps towards the door. Give me three steps, give me three steps, mister, you never see me no more. There's even a part in the song, he's like, he was lean, mean, big and bad lord, you know, uh, he was staring down the, the barrel, I mean, all this stuff. And I started thinking, I was like,

• 2:51:27Shawn Ryan?

  Kind of synchronicity.

• 2:51:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was like, I was like, was Van Zandt trying to send me a message from the grave, you know? And then with my stupid sense of humor, I'm like, I said, I was probably over there praying going, Lord, if I'm not supposed to go in this clubhouse tonight, if you'll just send me a sign, won't you give me three? I said, hey, can you turn that down? I'm trying to talk to Jesus right now. Lord, I apologize. These people can't.

• 2:51:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, so we lived to fight another day, man. The next day I got up. Uh, I didn't sleep. If I slept, it was probably like 30 minutes. Got up and, uh, went to do the deal. They showed up and we did it. And I paid everybody and it went off nice and smooth and we accounted for all our dope. And, uh, and then we were still off to the races.

• 2:52:14Shawn Ryan?

  Shit.

• 2:52:15Speaker 02

  When the outlaw stuff. So then as we're culminating towards the end of the case, by this time I had befriended several people in the Florida area and stuff like that as well. One in particular named Hillbilly. And as far as I know, Hillbilly was like the first hammer skin, skinhead ever become an outlaw. Um, and Hillbilly, we hit it off. I don't know. I still don't know the connection between Taunton and that Massachusetts area and the Florida, but they, I don't know if somebody went down there and stayed, I don't know what the pipeline was, but I'd met him up in Massachusetts. So we're going down to Daytona to do the, uh, world run. And, um, by the time we get there, this is how this, this story ends. Uh, I was a zombie.

• 2:53:00Speaker 02

  I remember my MO like, hey, don't let the bosses, don't give them a reason to say no. Work harder, try to outwork everybody. Well, it was, it was starting to be in my own detriment. I would go on an undercover on through the weekend, but I would come back and I wouldn't take any days off because I didn't want management getting mad at me for being going on the undercover. And then I just, this vicious cycle started snowballing. And it got to the point that at the end of a three year period, uh, I was a walking zombie. I was on antihistamines, decongestants, inhalers.

• 2:53:32Speaker 02

  I was taking a veteran, uh, drinking a bunch of coffee. I mean, I'd drink a pot of coffee and fall asleep and that's, that's not me. Um, I was exhausted. And we have something in the FBI called safeguard. It's a psychological assessment unit. It's under the umbrella of the undercover program. But it gets used for other things too. Like if you work innocent images, you get a safeguard that does your assessment. But if you're an active undercover in the FBI, you, you have to get assessed. Um, and they kind of assess you into a case, through the case and out of the case. They'll be all post like, okay, how did that end kind of thing? And generally the way it goes is you go in and take a bunch of tests. A lot of them are tests that most businesses give their people anyway.

• 2:54:16Speaker 02

  But it's psychological questions and stuff. And then you go in and sit down with a psychologist certified or licensed. Um, and then they may be an FBI agent, they may be contracted in. Um, and then you sit down with somebody like, uh, a seasoned undercover, maybe like a Joe Pistone, who helped create the safeguard unit anyway. Uh, it was him and another guy that created that whole thing. Um, but then you sit down with them, kind of like that, you can't bullshit a bullshitter thing. So you can't UC a UC, we use undercover UC as a verb. Um, and then they'll follow up with questions like, how, how's this, how's your office supporting you? What's your wife thinking? You know, things like that. So one of the tests, uh, is open into sentences.

• 2:55:01Speaker 02

  So it might say women are, and you got to finish it. Men are, you got to finish it. My badge and gun are, my mom is, my dad is. Um, one of them was the last time I relaxed eye. And I went and did an assessment right before I went to Daytona. And I'm in there and like I said, by this time I'm a zombie and just self medicating, I guess.

• 2:55:26Speaker 02

  And I got to that one where it says, "The last time I relaxed eye." And I'm typing and I look and my mind went blank. I literally couldn't think of anything. I know it sounds dumb. It sounds dumb me saying it right now, but I could not think of one thing I did to relax. And I was like, "Well, I work out." And I go, "Yeah, but it's not like I'm doing namaste and listening to Yanni and trickling water. I'm throwing iron, you know?" I'm like, "That's good for you. It's good for your endorphins, but I don't know if that's relaxing." And I remember thinking, "Man, that is messed up that you can't think of any way to relax." And then I made up a story. I didn't know I was already done. So I get to Daytona. Uh, I go out with the Outlaws. I'm partying.

• 2:56:09Speaker 02

  Um, by this time, Hillbilly sees me, calls me and backs me up to the front of the clubhouse, walks me in. I'm not a Patch member. Walks me in, gets whatever drinks I want, goes, carries me out to the back with the tenant area, uh, which to my understanding at that clubhouse, only Patch members should be there. But he brought me out back. We didn't know it, but he had become the Southeast Regional President. He eventually became the National President. But, um, and they were, we were standing out back and it was, it was very crappy code, but mentioned something about, "Cause one outlaw wanted to kill a Hell's Angel and he was upset and he wanted to retaliate right now." And it was like, "Hey, don't do it right now. They're expecting it. You see how long I had to wait to do that thing up north?" Something like that.

• 2:56:53Speaker 02

  And I'm like, "Oh, is he talking about the murder?" You know? So I go back that night and I debrief everything to the case teams from Jacksonville, Florida, FBI and, uh, Boston. And the way it was worded to me was, "Man, they've had people in and around Hillbilly. He doesn't talk like that to any of them. Boston, where's your case at? We pretty much got everything we want. Let's talk to the US Attorney's Office and Headquarters, but what if we don't take Boston down yet? Scott, you come down to Florida and try to patch under Hillbilly." And of course I said, "Yes, I was like, "Absolutely." But I didn't know I was already done because I got up the next morning, you know, if you've

• 2:57:33Speaker 02

  ever done it, especially in the younger years, uh, you wake up, you can hear and feel the whiskey swishing in your belly, you know, with the eggs still there from Waffle House the night before. And I got up and I said, "Man, I feel like a fat piece of trash." I said, "I'm a..." I started doing a workout in the room, something P90X-ish. It's like, you know, pushups, mountain climbers, squats, burpees, which I suck at, because I got a lumbar fusion. I don't really bend that well. But, uh, I was doing all that and I came up for air and it wasn't there. And because of the stress and everything that I was, so how worn out I was, I didn't realize that for months I'd only been chest breathing. I was so stressed, I wouldn't even expand my belly. I was breathing all right here, which is gonna, it's not good for you anyway.

• 2:58:18Speaker 02

  But before I started that workout, I woke up, I did the inhaler, Albuterol, that's a vasodilator, uh, I'm sorry, a bronchodilator. Uh, I did antihistamines, decongestants. I took three hydroxy cuts, which is a fentanyl, and drank two cups of coffee. I later learned, at least from what the doctor told me, that that is a cocktail for an anxiety attack. I said, "That was just trying to wake up?" Uh, but, uh, yeah, so I hyperventilate. I forget all about combat breathing, box breathing. I forget about paper bags and, and, uh, I'm just that worn out. And, uh, the truck driver undercover knocked on my door right about that time.

• 2:59:01Speaker 02

  I'm just in a towel, but I'm as white as a sheet. All my pores are open. I'm just sweating. My lips are all tight. He's like, "Are you okay?" I said, "I don't think so." So we go sit on the balcony overlooking the ocean, we're talking. And he's like, "You know, sometimes..." He'd been around for a while. He's a very experienced guy. He goes, "Sometimes we get this extra stress or these stressors, um, because we're fearing the end of the case. Sometimes we're fearing the fact that they're gonna find out who you really are. Sometimes we're fearing the fact that you're gonna be, you're gonna betray them. Sometimes, sometimes..." He starts doing these things. He goes, "Is it any of those?" I said, "It is now." I said, "Dad gummit, man, I didn't have any of that in my head and now I do." And I took a nap, self-medicated and went back out.

• 2:59:45Speaker 02

  I should've went home, but I didn't. Um, and when I went home from that trip, wheels up to wheels down, out cold, woke up to the plane hitting the ground. Hardly ever happens to me, if ever. Same thing from Houston to McAllen. I get home and I bet you the first day I slept 20 hours. Um, the, the next, from that Sunday, I think it was Sunday to Friday, I, I averaged over 16 hours of sleep a day. I wasn't depressed. Um, I wasn't sick. I know what they both feel like. I was that tired. So come Friday morning, uh, I'll say a former friend of mine, I don't think he likes me anymore, but I still love him, but it is what it is. But he called me and he says, um, he said, "How you doing, country?"

• 3:00:30Speaker 02

  And I said, "Not too good." He was calling to tell me about another case that was gonna be coming up and maybe we could do it or something. He let me talk for an hour and I basically talked my, he let me convince myself that I needed to self-report to Safeguard. And that Friday evening, I, I put a call in, because I knew the psychologist, one of them anyway, was a friend of mine. And I called her and said, "Hey, I don't know what's going on, but I think I'm crashing." So they came down, within two weeks or so, they came down and did an onsite assessment, special onsite assessment. And, uh, I was diagnosed as over-assigned and they put me on timeout. I'm not gonna be doing any undercover work for a minimum of six months. Go back to the office, you know, reintegrate if you need to.

• 3:01:13Speaker 02

  Uh, I really didn't because I was still a case, I didn't do an old thing, but, um, but I did finish the case on the phone. Um, they, they allowed me to do that. So what I did to help solidify everything for Boston's office and the case team is I stayed on the phone. I gave a story that I was getting divorced, that I was gonna relocate my soon-to-be ex and my two kids to El Paso, where her parents were at, um, because I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror if I didn't do that. Um, but once that's done, I'm coming north. I'm sick of this heat. That's the way I laid it out. Everybody was like, "Hell, yeah." Um, I mean, there was calls from Joe Dogs trying to get some kilos of cocaine from me,

• 3:01:55Speaker 02

  um, just talk about a club we were creating, uh, to, to be a support group for the Outlaws, talking to Scott Town all the time. And, and then, uh, I got a call from one of the, uh, there was a member named Tim Sylvia, not, not UFC Tim Sylvia. But, um, but Tim Sylvia, he'd been in prison a lot and he's an outlaw. He's a Brockton Chapter outlaw. I'd met him before my crash and he called me and he says, "Hey." You know, he knew about the drug dealing and all that stuff. And he's like, "You know what I'm in?" And I go, "No, not really." He goes, "I'm into that magic powder stuff." And I'm like, "Okay." I said, "Why?" And he said, "Yeah." I said, "Okay." And he said, "Basically in crappy code, he says, "If I can get a kilo of cocaine at

• 3:02:38Speaker 02

  18 grand price, he's got enough to buy 10 of them right now." He also had a Hummer two, uh, a hundred thousand dollar BMW. He wanted to report stolen, stuff like that. So I called the case team and said, "Hey, do you want me to set this up? Or are you gonna just leave it alone?" They said, "No, man, set it up." So we set it up and, uh, when he goes, when my truck drivers, the, they, they were posing as my truck drivers, when they go to pick up, uh, the stolen cars from Tim Sylvia, um, I mean, if you hear the recording, you can even hear me on the phone. I'm brokering. I'm like, "Hey, I'm in, I'm literally in my garage in McAllen going, "What corner are you on? All right, they're over here. Okay, he's over here. Hook them up." They pull up. You can hear me on the phone.

• 3:03:23Speaker 02

  You can hear the other undercover talking to me. And then he puts Tim on the phone and Tim's like, "Hey, uh, uh, you know, I got this, this, this." I said, "Yeah, okay." I said, "When are you gonna report the BMW stolen?" He said, "Friday." I said, "Can you wait till Saturday?" I said, "I just need, I want, I want a 24-hour buffer to make sure that thing's in Mexico." He's like, "Yeah." And, uh, and I, they put the undercover back on the phone and he says, "How much am I supposed to pay him?" I said, "Are the cars there?" He's like, "Yeah." I said, "21 grand." And he gives him 21 grand. And then when they were loading the cars, Tim solicited them for the 10 kilos at, uh, at 18 apiece. And they said, "Yeah, we can do that." So the case ended with a reversal.

• 3:04:05Speaker 02

  It, it, it went, they were, they were showing up with the 10 kilos and then the SWAT team takes down Tim Sylvia and that starts all the arrests off. And what, what was rough for me is, well, I didn't get to go be part of the takedown, but I'm pretty sure that was probably Safeguard saying, "No travel," you know? You would, you would've wanted to do the takedown? I would've liked to have been there. It's a great tool to have, um, especially if somebody's in there lying, uh, and then you come walking in like the TV and go, "Hey, just so we're clear, I'm Special Agent Scott Payne, FBI agent." And then they go, "Uh." Are you like, "All right, yeah, I was lying." Or if I feel like that person may be a threat to me, I, I, I may wanna go talk to them

• 3:04:48Speaker 02

  at the arrest and say, "Hey, this is what this is." Um, maybe if there was a source involved and they think they know who it is, maybe I'm gonna tell them, "This is not the pissing contest you wanna get into," kinda thing. Um, I always, my, for me, my best defense is a good offense. That's just me. I just, I, if I see somebody I put in jail, I ball with me, I walk right up to them. "Hey, man, how's it going, brother? Hey, you clean? You on the straight and narrow?" But, uh, so I was putting on training. It's the first time I taught the block on the outlaw thing and, um, it's the night of the takedown. I've had to draw diagrams of all the houses I've been in, all the apartments for all the SWAT teams and arrest teams that are gonna be hitting all these places, which was stressful too, because I'm a tactical guy and I'm like, "I don't want anybody getting

• 3:05:33Speaker 02

  hurt, because I wrote something down wrong." But, um, I go back to my room and I already told you UC school, long hours. I go back to my room and my phone's chirping. And I check and it's a message from Scott Town. And I chirp him up, next tells were big. I chirp him up and he says, raspy voice, because he's just woke up, it's the middle of the night, he goes, "Hey, I just want you to know, uh, your, uh, your truck driver and that other guy's always with him and Big Timmy, they got locked up." And I'm like, "What?" He goes, "They just got locked. Somebody just called me, said they're in jail." And I said, "Well, you know, they're not doing anything for me, but they do stuff on the side." I said, "Let me figure out what's going on," something to that effect.

• 3:06:17Speaker 02

  And he says, he says, basically, he says, "I'm gonna get up, get ready. I'm gonna find out what's going on and I'm gonna call you back." And I said, "Okay." Our last words to each other was, he says, "I love you, brother." And I said, "I love you too." And about 40 minutes later, a SWAT team hit his house and he went to prison. Damn. Yeah. That's real. Is he still in prison? No, he's out. You worry about that at all? No. Uh-uh. That ballin' was real.

• 3:06:55Shawn Ryan?

  You don't worry about that?

• 3:06:57Speaker 02

  No. No, not with him. That bond was real. He's a...

• 3:07:06Speaker 02

  He made a mistake, but he's a good guy.

• 3:07:08Shawn Ryan?

  You think you'll ever talk to him?

• 3:07:09Speaker 02

  Huh?

• 3:07:10Shawn Ryan?

  You think you'll ever talk to him?

• 3:07:12Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:07:12Shawn Ryan?

  Have you?

• 3:07:14Speaker 02

  I can either confirm or deny, because I have not been given permission.

• 3:07:20Speaker 02

  But the bond is real.

• 3:07:21Shawn Ryan?

  Right on, man.

• 3:07:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. There's been people

• 3:07:28Speaker 02

  that I've put in prison, undercover, put in prison. So not just me arresting them, me betraying them.

• 3:07:37Speaker 02

  I'm going through some family stuff. I won't talk too much about it, but I'm, I'm, I'm going through a divorce. And let's just say that

• 3:07:47Speaker 02

  December 29th of last year to middle of February this year, it's touch and go. Uh, and I know you know about it. I know you've probably got military friends. I mean, I'm, I'm...

• 3:08:03Speaker 02

  I gave up. I felt like a failure. I didn't want to be here anymore. I'm not saying that to get sympathy. What I'm saying it is, is at least I practice what I preach, because I turned this block into mental health at the end. But I used to talk about it in past tense, but now I can talk about it in present tense. But at least I made phone calls.

• 3:08:23Speaker 02

  I tell people all the time, when I finish training, I'm like, if somebody else doesn't say it, because if your listeners don't know this, first responders in military, and I mean first responders, I mean medic, fire, and blue, and gun toters, law enforcement, medic, fire, law enforcement, military, we are very high, if not number one, in suicide. We are very high, if not number one, in substance abuse, divorce, and dying within five years after retiring. So as of July 1st of this summer, I'm not that statistic. Cause I made it over five. But I made the phone calls, and it is a blessing that two of my pastors literally lived two doors from me.

• 3:09:07Speaker 02

  Um, and I was surrounded by good people. People had to come and spend the night. Um, and then in February, I took a turn for the better. I took a turn for the better, but I tell people, number one, it does not mean you're weak if you need help. That's a stigma we've got to get rid of in the first responder military. It doesn't mean you're weak, in my opinion. It, if you go... I, I say this. I said, I, I tell, when I'm teaching and stuff at the end, I, I'm like, I get the proverbial, don't talk to the psychologist at your police department, because what if somebody leaks? Cause it happens all the time. I get that. But go get help somewhere.

• 3:09:53Speaker 02

  I also get counselor or psychologist hurt. You go in and you meet somebody, and it did not go well at all. I parlayed this from a pastor. But have you ever had food poisoning?

• 3:10:08Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:10:08Speaker 02

  Yeah? Did you quit eating?

• 3:10:10Shawn Ryan?

  Nope.

• 3:10:10Speaker 02

  No. No. I might not get a sub at that place anymore, but I'm gonna go get one somewhere else, you know? Uh, so go find it. And I tell, I tell people this. I go, look, look at it like this. They've got a toolbox, and it may have tools you've never even seen before, right? If I gave you a hammer and said, build a house, it's gonna be tough. But if I roll three semis of the best hydraulic, whatever we got, anything we want, best tools in the world, it's gonna be a blast. We might even be able to build one in 30 minutes like they do on TV. But maybe they can give you a tool, and you can take that back to your toolbox. It's just, the suicide rate's just too much. It's just, we gotta do better. So...

• 3:10:56Shawn Ryan?

  There's a lot of avenues now to go down to

• 3:10:57Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:10:58Shawn Ryan?

  keep yourself busy, get yourself out of those holes.

• 3:11:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:11:01Shawn Ryan?

  We talk about a lot of them on this show.

• 3:11:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Uh, I was talking to somebody out there with the the Abagane and ayahuasca and stuff.

• 3:11:10Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:11:10Speaker 02

  Um, I can't do it. They told me I can't do it. I've got a buddy of mine that's, uh, he's, he's big into the ayahuasca, and when all that was going on, um,

• 3:11:23Speaker 02

  he was setting me up to where I could go get a treatment. But, uh,

• 3:11:30Speaker 02

  when I, in 2002, I went down, we figured out what it was. It was back surgery complications. But basically, the long and short of it is for three weeks, I felt like I couldn't breathe. I would eat this much food, felt like I couldn't breathe. Well, by the time we figured out what it was, turns out there's some damage done, and turns out when I crashed and had that panic attack in 2007 or eight, my mind reverted back to 2002. That's when the counselor's like, oh, cause she was like, she's like, have you ever been scared before? I said, yeah. I'm like, really scared. I go, oh, yeah, yeah, 2002. I said, my wife and daughter flew out. I said, I ate one thing. I was at SWAT training. I couldn't breathe. I panicked. I panicked for three weeks. And as I was saying it, I went, oh, no. And she goes, what? And I go, my mind reverted back to 2002. And she says,

• 3:12:15Speaker 02

  he got post-traumatic stress. And at that point, even as an educated guy, I was like, but I wasn't in the military. I didn't know you could get post-traumatic stress out, because I only heard it, you know, from like war and stuff. And, uh, yeah. She told me after I told her all that stuff from the outlaw years, those three years, she says, uh, oh my, she goes, oh my goodness, Scott, the average person would have crashed a year and a half ago.

• 3:12:39Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:12:40Speaker 02

  And I said, thanks. And she said, that wasn't a compliment. And I said, but I'm better than half. I'm better than average, right? So, uh,

• 3:12:53Speaker 02

  I say,

• 3:12:55Speaker 02

  I say all that because I think we need to do better about getting out there and, and our brothers and sisters making the phone call.

• 3:13:04Shawn Ryan?

  There's a lot of things coming out now. There's a, um, company called Envy Mind Health.

• 3:13:11Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:13:11Shawn Ryan?

  You've heard about that. You've heard about the wearables, whatever, you know, that track your, um, your vitals, heart rate,

• 3:13:18Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:13:18Shawn Ryan?

  all that kind of stuff, sleep. I got a friend, uh, Johnny Wilson, and, uh...

• 3:13:24Speaker 02

  I know Joe. That's who I was talking about.

• 3:13:26Shawn Ryan?

  You know Johnny Wilson?

• 3:13:27Speaker 02

  I shit you not. That's who I was talking about, who's gonna hook me up with ayahuasca.

• 3:13:30Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, okay.

• 3:13:31Speaker 02

  I'm an, I'm an alert instructor.

• 3:13:33Shawn Ryan?

  So he started, uh, Envy Mind Health. So you put, you put these wearable, you, you, it's Oral Ring, um, any of them, you know, the, the wop, the whoop. Um, and you, you can, you can make it so that these go, they, they kind of report into a friend group. So you got your friend, right?

• 3:13:53Speaker 02

  Awesome.

• 3:13:54Shawn Ryan?

  And if, and so if your vitals start, your sleep starts getting fucked up, your heart rate starts rising, you know, all these, all these vitals start.

• 3:14:02Speaker 02

  I, I would have loved to seen what mine would have read before my panic attack.

• 3:14:06Shawn Ryan?

  So it'll kind of alert your friend group. And then your friend group could be like, oh, what the fuck's going on? They'll call you up, say, hey, Scott, how you feeling? You doing all right? I see you're not sleeping. So your heart rate's getting up there.

• 3:14:21Speaker 02

  Huge accountability.

• 3:14:22Shawn Ryan?

  You know what I mean? And it's pretty, it's actually pretty cool. You know what I mean?

• 3:14:25Speaker 02

  Can't believe you didn't tell me that. Cause probably because you listen to me cry about all my wives.

• 3:14:29Shawn Ryan?

  But, uh...

• 3:14:29Speaker 02

  He was a lifeline call, though.

• 3:14:31Shawn Ryan?

  But there is, uh, there's a lot of good stuff coming out now.

• 3:14:34Speaker 02

  Well, I, I wanna hit on that, but real quick, I wanna say this, and you might wanna clip it back. I don't know how you do it, but I just want you to know what I was, what led me into telling you all that stuff about the divorce and hurting. One of the people I put in prison, who I betrayed, was my hugest emotional support animal during that entire damn time.

• 3:14:55Shawn Ryan?

  Damn, man.

• 3:14:55Speaker 02

  I'm talking, checked in in the morning, checked in at lunch, checked in at dinner, every day. Wake up, you son of a bitch. You're one of the most alpha male Viking dudes I've ever met, and you can beat this. I mean, who would it ever?

• 3:15:09Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 3:15:10Speaker 02

  Who would ever? I told him, I said, like, look, man, you need to choose your friends better. He's like, what are you talking about? I said, I put you in prison.

• 3:15:19Shawn Ryan?

  Still to this day.

• 3:15:20Speaker 02

  He's like, he's like, you're hanging out with a felon. And I go, that's true. Yeah, I'm retired, whatever. Uh, but, uh, so go back to, go back to, uh, Johnny. Uh, I swear I didn't know that. So I met Johnny through Alert. The FBI and Alert, A-L-E-R-R-T, uh, based out of San Marcos, Texas. After the Sandy Hook School massacre, Department of Justice, from the top all the way down, Obama, even during, they said, no training, whatever, we couldn't travel or nothing. They said, um,

• 3:15:52Speaker 02

  an agency in the Department of Justice needs to be the lead on active shooter training for law enforcement. And they chose the FBI. I'll say, not being biased, but I'll say, I think it was a good choice because the FBI has a SWAT team in every field division. And, and we have a principal tactical instructor in every field office. In order to be the principal tactical instructor, you have to be a firearms instructor. Currently, you have to be SWAT certified, all these building blocks, then you become an active shooter instructor. So they picked the FBI, and my peers in Quantico, and the tactical training unit were going around and looking at different programs. There's several programs out there.

• 3:16:31Speaker 02

  But they settled in with Alert, and we married each other in 2013. So in 2013, I think about 125 to 150 tactical instructors from the FBI, over five week, a weekend, a week class, but over five weeks, we all went and got certified as active shooter instructors, uh, certified instructors with Alert. So all through those years, I was, I was helping teach and getting certified in the, the solo officer response, uh, a race, which is outdoors, a lot of military type stuff, getting certified. So when I retired from the FBI, um, I applied to be an adjunct instructor. So now, I'm not getting paid by the FBI, but like, two, two or three weeks ago,

• 3:17:15Speaker 02

  put on a class. Somebody requested, they hosted, you see the classes you put in for them, you got a regional manager, and I went and, uh, we taught a one week, train the trainer. And if you pass, you're a certified instructor, uh, with Alert. My first class, uh, post FBI, on probation, my first class was Johnny. And we've, and we've been best friends ever since. Yeah.

• 3:17:39Shawn Ryan?

  Man, how the hell did I not know this?

• 3:17:41Speaker 02

  I don't know, bro. So, so the other thing is, is, uh, I mean, man, he saved his own, I mean, he did end up getting amputated, but he saved his own life on that motorcycle wreck. He was guiding in, he, we're talking about the same Johnny Wilson?

• 3:17:55Shawn Ryan?

  No, we're not talking about the same Johnny Wilson.

• 3:17:59Speaker 02

  I saw you looking, and I was wondering.

• 3:18:02Speaker 02

  JSOC.

• 3:18:03Shawn Ryan?

  Nope.

• 3:18:04Speaker 02

  Nope, alright. It's a different Johnny Wilson.

• 3:18:06Shawn Ryan?

  Different Johnny Wilson.

• 3:18:07Speaker 02

  It's crazy.

• 3:18:08Shawn Ryan?

  He's not an amputee.

• 3:18:09Speaker 02

  Okay, cuz that's why I was like, man, he didn't tell, why would he not tell me he's got these little mobility buddy things. Alright, so another Johnny Wilson, but I'll tell you about my Johnny Wilson.

• 3:18:19Speaker 02

  He's JSOC. He did have a motorcycle wreck. He, he saved his own with the Stop the Bleed. Had, had a bystander, uh, makeshift tourniquet, got it EMS in, but he did end up losing from here down. But he's the one, uh, that's just crazy cuz when you said it, he's the one that was telling me a lot about this stuff. And I, and maybe I should preface it with this. I'm friends with the owners of CPI, cellular performance institute. They're based out of Tijuana. Um, they are partnered with UFC. So you watch the octagon, you'll see CPI stem cells. I'm kind of a spokesperson for them and they now have, well, it's not them, but there is a, uh, nonprofit.

• 3:19:03Speaker 02

  Uh, the Miracle Hope Foundation raises money for first responders and military to be able to get those treatments. Cuz they are pricey, but, um,

• 3:19:14Speaker 02

  they're doing a lot of things to help. I've seen a lot. I've met a lot of people. I've been like three times now. I've met a lot of, um, uh, former military, former spec ops, and their bodies healing from all the stem cells. So the pains, they're pain free for the first time in forever. And, and now you're like, oh, okay. That helps mentally, right? That's gonna help cut back on this. I don't wanna live anymore. And one of the times I was coming back, uh, oh, let me say this about CPI. The stem cells they do down there is,

• 3:19:48Speaker 02

  if you do stem cells in the United States, you're probably getting bovine or your own body fat. It's just not as much and it's not umbilical, umbilical cord donations. And down there you get like, I mean, I got 20 million in one shoulder, 10 million in that one, 70 million in my neck, 120 million in an IV. You're getting hyperbaric oxygen chamber, ozone therapy, all this stuff. And there, there's some amazing things happening, but it's also helping with the mental health.

• 3:20:14Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:20:14Speaker 02

  A lot. Um, I will say it's the best hospital stay I've ever had. People here Tijuana, and I was sketch too, man. I worked the border for six and a half years. We talked about cartel and I went down there and I'm like, it's where you stay, restaurant district, where the hospital is, medical district. It's, uh, the best hospital stay I've ever had because my last hospital stay in the United States, I almost died. They were talking offline, but I had a hip, hip replacement and 13 days later I was full blown sepsis. And almost died. Had two hip surgeries in 14 days. And that hospital stay, Labor Day weekend, understaffed, you're not getting your medicine. I'm down there at the, at the center, man. I'm like, yeah. So coming back, one of the last times I came back,

• 3:20:59Speaker 02

  I'm coming out of the, the Sheraton Hotel. I'm hopping on a bus, a, a, a shuttle bus. I see a bunch of dudes that look like they were CPI people and we start talking. It's all former military and they were coming from MBO. So they started telling me all about MBO and, uh, and then the, the documentary is on Netflix and I watched it, but what I heard is this. And my friend Johnny's the one that, that found this out for me, but, um,

• 3:21:29Speaker 02

  in 2002, when I had the whatevers, doctor prescribed venlafaxine, effexor is the, the name.

• 3:21:41Speaker 02

  I've been on it pretty much ever since. So,

• 3:21:46Speaker 02

  I was getting ready to go do a ayahuasca. I was gonna try that. Um, Abagaine, you can tell me, I don't know, man. I'm like 18 hours or more. I'm like, I don't know. I might be scared. I'm not, might be, I might be, I am scared. Um, but what they came back, like three or four different doctors said, if you're on that, an SSRI, an SSNI, it's gonna compete with what the ayahuasca and the Abagaine or the DMT is trying to do. And they said you could go into seizures or you won't have anything happen at all, or it'll be a bad ride. And I'm like, I don't want any of those, but for whatever reason, you can do ketamine if you're on an SSRI or an SSNI.

• 3:22:30Speaker 02

  And you still disassociate and, uh, I've done six of those. I've done six, six treatments with that.

• 3:22:36Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 3:22:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:22:37Shawn Ryan?

  How were those?

• 3:22:38Speaker 02

  I disassociated, man. I was, I was flying, you know?

• 3:22:43Shawn Ryan?

  Did you get anything out of it?

• 3:22:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I did. Yeah, I did cuz I was, I was crying a lot cuz that was, uh, that was during some of my, that, that rough two and a half month stretch, I guess. Um, but man, I'd just be going in crying as I'm, as I'm going in, I'm going, please stop this plane. Please heal me. Please heal me, you know? And then I would be, but I, I had some, uh, I had some epiphanies, um, but I really had a good guide too. I mean, that helps when they come in and talk to you if they're, if they're really knowledgeable, um, and a good listener or just good, good person with great advice. But, um, one that hit me was I have a lot more love to give. It's a weird one. I came out and I'm like, what?

• 3:23:27Speaker 02

  And then another one, I came out and I was like, uh, the Lord put me here to serve.

• 3:23:36Speaker 02

  Pretty much what I've done. Still trying to.

• 3:23:38Shawn Ryan?

  Right on, man.

• 3:23:39Speaker 02

  Um, and then, you know, that book's finished. Maybe I'm starting my new book.

• 3:23:47Shawn Ryan?

  Good for you.

• 3:23:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. That's what we're trying. And for some odd reason, I would end up at least three of the six. I would end up in the woods and I'm looking at all the trees and they all turned around and they're all Sasquatches from that movie, Harry and the Hendersons from the eighties.

• 3:24:07Speaker 02

  And they're like, you can't control, like you're flying and I'm flying. I'm like, okay, oh, oh, I'm back. I remember this spot. Okay, okay. And I go, oh, and I look and they all turn around and they go.

• 3:24:19Speaker 02

  One of these days I'm gonna see Harry and the Hendersons on TV and it may throw me into some kind of ketamine.

• 3:24:24Shawn Ryan?

  That is crazy. I just introduced my kids to Harry and the Hendersons. They're obsessed with Bigfoot.

• 3:24:29Speaker 02

  That's so good.

• 3:24:30Shawn Ryan?

  They love, nobody talks about that movie anymore. That's fucking weird.

• 3:24:34Speaker 02

  But they, they, like, they think it's just he's going off by himself at the end and all the, all the trees are Sasquatches. Yeah, I, I did. I did. I had some good things out of it. Um,

• 3:24:46Speaker 02

  but I don't know how that compares to Abagaine or, or ayahuasca or DMT.

• 3:24:52Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I've done two Abagaines.

• 3:24:55Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:24:57Shawn Ryan?

  First one went great. Second one didn't go so great.

• 3:25:00Speaker 02

  Uh, so that's one I'm afraid of. How many hours?

• 3:25:04Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, I think this last one was about eight. I think we started about 8:00 PM and I was still in it. I finally got out of the room at 4:00 PM the next day. So what's it, 20 hours?

• 3:25:21Speaker 02

  Dang.

• 3:25:22Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. And then I did five MEO and, uh, pretty sure I experienced hell.

• 3:25:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. What's the five, what? Is that the DMT?

• 3:25:33Shawn Ryan?

  The toad venom.

• 3:25:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:25:35Shawn Ryan?

  It's DMT.

• 3:25:37Speaker 02

  And that's like a, they say that's like a 30 minute ride or something, right? Just as soon as you hit it, they're like, boom, you're flying.

• 3:25:43Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Yeah. I don't even like talking about it. It's so fucking dark.

• 3:25:49Speaker 02

  Yeah?

• 3:25:49Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. They call it the god molecule, but I didn't feel any god out on that one.

• 3:25:56Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 3:25:57Shawn Ryan?

  And the first one went great. Quit drinking. I'm like four and a half years off booze now, so.

• 3:26:06Speaker 02

  Really?

• 3:26:06Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 3:26:09Speaker 02

  Crazy. You think that's the DMT or the Abagaine or is it the both together?

• 3:26:14Shawn Ryan?

  Well, that's the Abagaine. I mean, it's, it's got, uh, I think it's pretty much scientifically proven at this point that it replenishes receptors and, uh, in your brain. So it takes cravings away and can cure addiction.

• 3:26:27Speaker 02

  That's what they're saying ketamine does. It works right here.

• 3:26:29Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:26:30Speaker 02

  But for some reason you can still do it with, and what it, what it'll do, it'll help you back off. It'll help. That's why I started. They said if you do the ketamine, you can back off of the effexor, the venlafaxine.

• 3:26:40Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, mine was a, was a light switch. I just didn't want any booze anymore. Didn't want any, really anything. It stuck. Everything but marijuana. And then, uh, I quit that off this last one. It's only been about a month, but, um,

• 3:27:03Shawn Ryan?

  yeah, I don't know. You know, I got, uh, it's helped a lot of people. I've got mixed feelings about it.

• 3:27:08Speaker 02

  I wonder why.

• 3:27:12Speaker 02

  So what I was instructed is do the ketamine to back off the effects or then you're off the effects or then you can go do the Abigail and the ayahuasca. That's why I was doing it. But at a certain point with everything going on, I was down and I was like, I'm doing too much. There's too much going on. I'm heartbroken. I'm going through all this.

• 3:27:30Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:27:30Speaker 02

  You know?

• 3:27:31Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:27:31Speaker 02

  Um, and, uh, I just, I just went back to regular medicine. I'm like this until this all settles it down. But I, I would, I really would like to try it.

• 3:27:44Shawn Ryan?

  Which one? Abigail or both?

• 3:27:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, my friends that I know were pushing ayahuasca more.

• 3:27:53Shawn Ryan?

  I've not done that one.

• 3:27:54Speaker 02

  I don't know. It's mushroom based, I guess.

• 3:27:58Shawn Ryan?

  Have you done, have you done just regular psilocybin?

• 3:28:02Speaker 02

  Uh-uh.

• 3:28:03Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, maybe try that.

• 3:28:07Speaker 02

  I wonder if I can do that with it. I just don't want to bust out in the seizures and I don't want to have a bad trip.

• 3:28:13Shawn Ryan?

  That would be bad.

• 3:28:13Speaker 02

  I know. I don't want to, I'll be, I'll be that guy flopping off the cliff. What happened? I don't know. He had a bad, he had a bad trip.

• 3:28:21Shawn Ryan?

  Let's take a quick break.

• 3:28:25Shawn Ryan?

  There's been a lot of attention lately on how important sleep is, not just for recovery, but for your brain, hormones, immune system, and for your performance. And the more research comes out, the clearer it gets. If your sleep is off, everything else gets harder. That's why I use Helix. I've had my Helix mattress for a while now, and it's been a real upgrade from what I was sleeping on before. Helix has over 20 mattress models, so you can find one that actually fits how you sleep instead of guessing your way through it. And if you sleep hot, they've got cooling upgrades that help you stay comfortable through the night, especially during the summer. For me, Helix feels high quality, durable, and comfortable.

• 3:29:09Shawn Ryan?

  It's not just a mattress that shows up in a box. It feels like something that's built to last. Helix ships straight to your door for free in the U.S. and you get a 120-night sleep trial, a limited lifetime warranty, and they're happy with Helix guarantee. So returns and exchanges are simple if it's not the right fit. Helix is also the most awarded mattress brand, tested and reviewed by experts like Forbes and Wired. Go to helixsleep.com/srs for up to 30% off. That's helixsleep.com/srs for up to 30% off. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you. helixsleep.com/srs.

• 3:29:55Shawn Ryan?

  The internet wasn't built with your privacy in mind, but Glacier was. Open the app, tap connect, done. You're protected. Remember, privacy isn't paranoia, it's protection. Take your privacy back. Download Glacier today.

• 3:30:19Shawn Ryan?

  All right, Scott, we're back from the break.

• 3:30:21Speaker 02

  All right.

• 3:30:23Shawn Ryan?

  Let's hit the base.

• 3:30:24Speaker 02

  Let's do it. So, um, the book, it's kind of like the bookends. Um, it was one of the last big cases I did. Um, actually kind of got me thinking about retirement because you're coming up to 50 years old. How many young, young guy groups can you infiltrate unless you're the pedophile, you know?

• 3:30:45Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:30:45Speaker 02

  Giving them beer and stuff. Um, so when you say white supremacy, um, a lot of, most people picture like KKK, you know, and I did, there's stories of that in the book too. I infiltrated them. It's a little more comical than serious, I think. But, um, the base is this, they're called accelerationists. So by the time I retired, let me say it this way. When we started this investigation, it was considered kind of cringe if you were a white supremacist to be an accelerationist. Um, but by the time we finished, almost 90%

• 3:31:26Speaker 02

  of your national socialist neo-Nazi white supremacists online were claiming accelerationists. And this is what this is. There's a book called Seeds by James Mason. He's a longtime white supremacist. The book is essentially articles of interviews, but he highlights and admires people like, uh, Satan, Charles Manson, you know, good role models. Um, but

• 3:31:52Speaker 02

  it's, the way I was taught is this. When I infiltrated the base, I was told by them, hey, this is what we are. An accelerationist does not believe that there's a political solution for the white race. They believe that society is going to collapse on its own, uh, or for man-made events, and they want to speed it up. But they want to speed it up through guerrilla warfare tactics, small hits like power grid over here, train derailment over here, poison water system here, murdered lefty here, just chaos. Um, not a lot of forethought or afterthought, you know, but it's, uh, the accelerationist views kind of came about in the eighties. I believe the group was called the Iron Order

• 3:32:37Speaker 02

  or just the Order. But they were the ones that were taking off, um, like armored cars. And I tell people, I go, if you want to picture like militia anti-government, because militias aren't illegal, but anti-government meets doomsday prepper meets white supremacists. So we're out there training. You're, you're always building your battle, rattle, your kit for the boogaloo. And they refer to the boogaloo as like D-Day, um, the kickoff to the race war. But they are the new neo, they're neo-Nazis, they're national socialist, but accelerationists. And, uh, this group, the base, came out after Adam Waffen. Adam Waffen

• 3:33:17Speaker 02

  was created by James Mason, who wrote the book Siege. Um, but the base, we started getting, uh, from our world working partners and stuff, eh, these accelerationists are pretty big on like what they call flyering or stickering and, or postering. Essentially, it's me and you, we're all hooded up, we're all covered, we park here, we walk down as far as we're going to go, don't get picked up by any cameras. And on the way back up, maybe you got the spray glue, you're spraying it, and I'm slapping the, I'm slapping the, the poster on there. And we're just going up. And then the poster would be like, save your race, join the base. And there'd be pictures of like training and some swastikas and stuff on it. And then

• 3:33:59Speaker 02

  there'd be a QR code. You hit that QR code, it takes you right to a bit shoot website to a propaganda video to help recruit you. Because what I'll say is this, I've seen, I've seen a lot of, you know, you see chatter and some haters after some of the interviews you do. I just want everybody to understand, I'm talking about far-right extremism because that's what my skill set led me into. Um, but I have peers, mentors, people I've been blessed to mentor, uh, that work all other sides of extremism. And I will tell you, if you look at radical jihad, if you look at far-right extremism and far-left extremism, the, the techniques are very, very similar. The radicalization of teens and young ones online is very, very similar. Um, and they all end up, in their belief system, usually

• 3:34:44Speaker 02

  end up with their own little space, whether it's a caliphate, an ethno-state, whatever they want to call it, where it's almost socialism, you get stuff for free, and it's only whites over here, or you got your caliphate over here, or you got this over here. Um, it's very similar. Um, but they came on our radar, um, because these flyers and stuff were coming up, but they're also popping up all over the world. So our world working partners, whether it be Australia, London, whatever, they're reaching out. And we determined, we were able to figure out that the leader of the base is a guy named Ronaldo Lozaro. But online, he went by Norman Spears and Roman Wolfe and other monikers. Um, this guy is

• 3:35:27Speaker 02

  a US cit, US citizen, uh, born Villanovograd, former Army intel.

• 3:35:37Speaker 02

  Trying to think if I missed anything. He contracted with the DOJ somewhere. I don't, first they were saying it was FBI, but I don't think it ended up being the FBI. Uh, and now resides in St. Petersburg, Russia with his Russian family. And he is trying to start, they're trying to make a comeback. We pretty much made them defunct after our case, but they're trying to make a comeback. They're claiming some murders in Ukraine and stuff. But, so these flyers start coming. And we're getting all the reports. Meanwhile, we have coverage online of whether they're covert employees or whatever, but you're seeing this chatter online, and it might be a moniker like TMB. And we're like, who is this guy? Man, he is spewing some crazy stuff. Because if you spew too much crazy stuff.

• 3:36:24Speaker 02

  Like in those groups and on those apps, they'll, they're gonna start, they're gonna say you're glowing. And that means you're talking Fed talk, or you're a snitch, or they'll be like, hey, man, that's Fed talk. In other words, you're gonna, you keep talking like that, the feds are gonna be in this room, kinda thing. But they, a lot of the groups use like Telegram, Wire, uh, WhatsApp, maybe Riot, 3M, 4chan, 8chan, 12chan, Discord, all these things. Now, am I saying that everybody on Discord is doing bad stuff? No, not at all. But do bad people go to Discord to do bad stuff? Absolutely. You know, it's like I tell parents with kids these days, I mean, look, man, if your kid's playing Roblox

• 3:37:06Speaker 02

  and Fortnite and Minecraft, awesome. If they're playing those games with a headset on, awesome, but you need to know who they're talking to.

• 3:37:15Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, we've covered that quite a bit on this show. Seven six four called.

• 3:37:19Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 3:37:20Shawn Ryan?

  All the shit that's going on on Roblox.

• 3:37:21Speaker 02

  So, so seven six four has an accelerationist view. So if you look at your accelerationist groups, like the base, like Adam Waffen and these other ones, if you start scratching at the surface, you're gonna probably find at least one member in there that's messing with Order of Nine Angles. And Order of Nine Angles is white supremacy, but heavily, heavily, heavily satanic. You'll see Order of Nine Angles tied in with seven six four and Colt and Hell and all those other groups. Uh, not necessarily white supremacy, but still that kind of accelerationist, uh, anti-government chaos thing.

• 3:38:00Shawn Ryan?

  So how did this pop up on your radar?

• 3:38:03Speaker 02

  Well, I am, I was involved in the undercover program. I was the undercover coordinator at my office. We were running undercover operations. And so I'm always working with those headquarters units. And I don't know who told me or how, maybe I was there when it happened, but over time, it's like, man, we gotta put somebody in on this group. And I'm like, hey, I'm free. If y'all think I'm good for it, I'll do it. And they're like, yeah. So I had a good buddy of mine, who's a task force officer, really good online. Uh, I had him sit down with me and I said, hey, I need you to help me build myself up online. So I could start bumping into these guys, cause they were recruiting online. Like on Gab, you go in there and the, the, the channel group would be for whites only. And you're like, well, I wonder what I'm gonna find in here.

• 3:38:47Speaker 02

  Or it'll be like 14 words. Well, that's, that's the 14 words coined by David Lane. It's renowned in white supremacy.

• 3:38:58Speaker 02

  So I go on, I created an identity and, um, I go on to Gab and I start looking at some of their stuff. And they're, they're like posting, hey, we're, we're a unit, uh, survivalist group and we like to train and blah, blah, blah. And okay, so I email, it says, hey, if you're interested, email here. So I like some of their stuff, they like me back. You know, I'm got my best friends now. We liked each other online.

• 3:39:25Speaker 02

  So I email and for about a week to a week and a half, I'm getting emailed questions, questions, questions, questions. I mean, like, uh, my ethnicity, um, height, weight, what skillset do I have? And any kind of fighting, training, guns, stuff like that. What are you gonna bring to the table? What groups have I been a part of? Is there anybody in my family that's non-white? Things like that, all kinds of stuff.

• 3:39:54Speaker 02

  So I do that and then I'm, I'm looking, I'm like, man, they're only answering me during this block of time during the day. And I'm sitting there, I'm looking, I'm going, what time it is in Russia right now? And I'm like, I bet you it's Nazaros answering my questions, because it was like, if he worked till like five o'clock or something, it would always answer, right? And this, but it's, it was that evening sweet spot time in Russia.

• 3:40:18Speaker 02

  And I was, I'm pretty sure, we didn't, I don't think we confirmed it, but I'm, I'm 99.9% sure it was him. Cause then I'm instructed to, hey, download the Wire app. And again, these, these, these extremists are using these apps because they believe they're encrypted. So some of them are encrypted end to end. They're based out of like Sweden or somewhere else where the feds here are gonna have a hard time subpoenaing that information. You know? So it's essentially to thwart law enforcement activity. So they instructed me to download the Wire app. I get on it and, uh, I hit them up and I'm told that I'm gonna do a, it ended up being about four or five people on the call, live phone call, panel interview.

• 3:41:03Speaker 02

  So, so I'm like trying to school myself. I'm like, I've read some of Siege, I got some things I know I could talk about with Siege. All right, good, accelerationist identity. I know that my backstory is I was a skinhead, I've already got all that covered in South Carolina, boom, boom, boom. Got everything lined up and I'm ready. So I said, well, what if they grant me, what if they tell me to take my phone and do a 360 in the room? You know, cut the video on and do a turn. I'm like, let me go down in the woods. So I go down in the woods, I tell my wife and kids, I'm like, hey, I'm gonna be in the woods on a undercover call. Don't be coming out screaming my name and stuff, I'll come up when I'm done.

• 3:41:37Speaker 02

  So I'm down there, it's about 10 minutes to the call. And it's before I had this arm sleeved out with tats. I, I, out of the corner of my eye, I looked and my whole arm was black. And I went, I looked down, there's that many mosquitoes. My whole arm was covered and I was like, screw this.

• 3:41:52Speaker 02

  I, in fact, I'm not gonna call from the woods. And I went running up to my old truck and I made sure it was clean, nothing's in it. It says Scott Pan or anything like that. And I, I drive over to an abandoned parking lot, uh, closed movie parking lot. And I do the call. It lasted about an hour and 15 minutes. Some of the voices on there were very young, very young.

• 3:42:14Speaker 02

  And I was asked questions like, how are you with taking instructions from somebody younger than you? Uh, there's a lot of young people in this group, you know?

• 3:42:25Speaker 02

  Are you, are you willing to accomplish anything? Or are you willing to do anything to accomplish a goal? You know, they told me about somebody who had a relative that was like, uh, it, it put like a sliver of non-white in them and they said it and they booted them. But I'm also, they, they also explained to me what their goals are, what they're doing, preparing the kit for the boogaloo, uh, what accelerationism is. And at the end of the call, Nazaros says, look, I'd like to give a 24 hour rest period. Now, now you know what we're about and we know about you. Gives us a chance to decide if we want you, gives you a chance to decide if you wanna be in it. And through his word, about 24 hours later, I got a ping and it said that they were willing to, they, they would love to have me join the base.

• 3:43:10Speaker 02

  And I said, I'd love to join. And then they said, where are you at? And I said, East Tennessee. And they said, the closest cell, C E L L, cause I got a country accent, uh, the closest cell to you is in North Georgia. And you'll be contacted by the, by the, uh, cell leader. And I'd mentioned that we'd seen this guy, TMB, online, like spewing stuff. And everybody was like, man, who is this dude? Wow, man, he is talking some crazy, crazy stuff. Well, guess who ended up being my cell leader? TMB.

• 3:43:41Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 3:43:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, we had no idea. I was like, holy crap, it's him.

• 3:43:46Speaker 02

  And I'm called and now I gotta go down to Rome, Georgia to do a face-to-face meeting to be vetted in real life, I R L, whether it's in real life. And then at that point, I'd be brought in. So, you know, we create all that, you're working with different case teams, you're trying to identify, uh, people and stuff. And, and, and I go down to meet the case team in Georgia and they just pinged me a location. So I pull in, it's a cemetery. I'm like, I start laughing, I get out, I go, this is a whole task force there. I'm like, you guys trying to tell me something by having me meet you in a cemetery? Pretty morbid way to start, you know? And then they say, hey, man, do you mind if we slap a tracker on your truck?

• 3:44:28Speaker 02

  I said, no, go ahead, because you gotta remember, I've never met these people. At that point, I don't even think we knew who TMB was. We knew we were going to meet TMB, but I don't think we knew who he was yet. So picture, you've got an undercover going in, could be hopping in the car with somebody, you don't know who they are, we don't know where you're going. And a storm's coming in, so that's gonna cut out some aerial footage, you know what I mean? Some aerial surveillance.

• 3:44:58Speaker 02

  So they had instructed me, um, when I got, they said, when you get to Rome, uh, take a picture. Oddly enough, there was a statue of a Roman wolf in Rome. Take a picture of that, send it to me, I want you to park in this parking lot, these kinda things. And I remember somebody on the team was like, hey, man, you think they're watching you? I go, yes, they're watching me, that's why they're telling me to park in a certain place, send pictures and stuff. So they put the tracker on, I go and I'm riding around. I can't find a parking spot in Spargan, which is fine with me, cause it allows me to loop the neighborhood downtown a couple of times, acting like I don't know where I'm going, looking for a spot, but I can also be looking to see if I pick up counter surveillance or whatever, right? Or surveillance on me. Um, so I find a spot and I pull up in there.

• 3:45:42Shawn Ryan?

  Did you pick up any?

• 3:45:43Speaker 02

  No, I didn't see any, I didn't see any. But the reason is, is there were only two of them. I didn't know, but I was looking. Um, so I find a spot, it's behind the, uh, coffee shop, I think. And I'm like, hey, I'm parked over here, I couldn't find a spot, here's a picture of the Roman wolf. And, uh, and he goes, where are you at? And I'm like, yeah, I'm over here. He goes, okay, I'll see you. So they come walking up. It's, it's TMB and a kid that went by the name Pestilence. I say kid, um, he's 19 at that time.

• 3:46:13Speaker 02

  And TMB's probably like 6'2", maybe 220, a little frumpy build, mopy hair, he needed a haircut, thick glasses. But thicker dude, he comes walking up, kinda dressed normal. Pestilence is more like, um, tactical eight inch boots, black B D U's bloused into his boots, but a black tank top that has some black metal band on it. Uh, which would be more like your satanic, you know, death metal, black metal stuff. Uh, those are two different things, black metal.

• 3:46:47Speaker 02

  So I introduced myself, I'm a white warrior, okay, we shake hands and stuff. And I'm pretty sure they're gonna pat me down, it's our first meet, you know? I would, do your due diligence, you know?

• 3:46:57Speaker 02

  And he says, put your phone in airplane mode. And I'm like, okay. So I put in airplane mode and then he, he pulls out this thing. And I'd never seen it, one like it. I mean, it looked like a Geiger counter to me, I'm like, what the hell is, I mean, it's, it was like this big radio thing, had a triangle card sticking out of it. And I'm like, hmm, I mean, I'm not rusty.

• 3:47:18Speaker 02

  I've seen plenty of RF detectors and things like that, but I'm like, what is it? So he wants me, no, nothing. He goes inside my truck, nothing. As he's walking down the driver's side, slowly, at least that's another adrenaline dump moment. Not quite like the basement, naked, you know? But.

• 3:47:39Speaker 02

  He's walking down and this machine starts going nuts. It starts going

• 3:47:46Speaker 02

  Lights are going off and I go, oh shit. It's picking up the tracker. I don't know exactly where it's at, but I saw the agent under my driver's side quarter panel and he put it up and as he's getting close, I'm like, I start using my right leg back. Cause I'm like, they're my cover team's not, they're not even close. It's about to go. I'm ready. I'm like, yeah, I don't know if they're armed. I know I'm not, you know? And right when he's getting to it, because we were on a steep hill, there was power lines and they were pretty low. And pestilence says, hey, you think it could be the power lines? He turns. Divine intervention for me, man. He turned like, he turns and walks over and the power lines make it go nuts. And he's like, shit.

• 3:48:25Speaker 02

  Yes, the power lines, you need to follow us. I said, okay. Well, I hop in the car and I'm calling, I don't know how many people are watching me. I'm on the phone, but I'm driving and I'm doing the stiff lip thing, you know, my, my, from my southern roots, you know? I'm like, hey, can you guys hear anything? And they're like, yeah. And I'm like, you need to cut the tracker off. They're like, well, I said, you gotta cut it off. And it seemed like we went back. They weren't, they weren't like arguing with me. It was more of a safety concern. They were like, man, we don't know if we can cut it off remotely. And if we cut it off, we don't know if we can get it back on. We don't even know where you're going. I said, I'm telling you right now, whatever they have is picking that up. And if you don't cut it off, it's gonna be a quick undercover. It's gonna be over. And then I follow them.

• 3:49:07Speaker 02

  And I don't know if they got it off or not. I'm just hoping they see me and they're following me. I hope they got it off. And I follow them and they pull into like an abandoned concrete plant. Like I pull in and I look up and I'm like, oh, that's funny. Like how many action movies have I seen where people get killed in an abandoned concrete plant? The, the hits are just coming today, you know? And, uh, and I remember opening my arms up and the sky fell, the bottom of the sky fell out. So I felt like I was in a Creed video, you know, it was like raining on me with arms wide open. And they checked me and I'm fine. They checked the truck. They got the tracker shut off. So that was a Then we go hit the, we go hit the liquor store and then go to, uh,

• 3:49:50Speaker 02

  Luke's TMB's property. His dad had a hundred acres in Rome, Georgia. And I mean gorgeous property. It's sad what was happening on it, but gorgeous property. Uh, an older house that they were renting out and then they converted the, the barn into a residential top half.

• 3:50:09Speaker 02

  So that's where we did all the training. Um, and maybe I should point this out too. When I told you extremism lines up and is very similar. You know what the base is in Arabic? No. Al Qaeda. No shit. Al Qaeda in English means the base. What was Al Qaeda's MO? Three to five man cells all over the world, training for D day, waiting for the phone call. What's the MO for the base? Three to five man cells all over the world, training for D day, waiting for the phone call. Wow. Yeah. So Shit.

• 3:50:46Speaker 02

  Trying not to burn myself on that one. Um, so Uh, I sit there, there's some crazy stuff you hear. Some of these cats, man, they believe that there's the earth is flat. There's flat earthers. There's concave earthers. There's hollow earth. And they believe that Hitler's still alive and he is living in hollow earth with 15 foot plus tall. They're not a Garthens. Maybe a Garthens is what it is. Big white redheaded ginger dudes, 15 plus foot tall. And I'm like, okay, I do have to have a little bit of fun, you know? And I go, so what are they waiting on?

• 3:51:25Speaker 02

  What? Is there some significant event to come back and save the white race or? What Hitler, come on, what are you doing down there in hollow earth? Come on up here, buddy. You know, and they'd be talking like, you know, uh, Hitler conducted a study that proved that the earth is concave. And I'm like, okay. And they're like, yeah. Uh, so he shot a missile and eventually the missile hit the ground. And I go,

• 3:51:49Speaker 02

  what if the missile ran out of gas or power? I go, well, no, I go, what if there was a hill or a mountain and it hit that? And then they were like, well, we don't know the nuances of the study, but it's been proven that the earth is concave. I'm like, I go, what about the pictures? All the pictures of earth from space. Oh, that's one photo that was made and it's been, it's been I'm like, okay, man. But yeah, they, they're armed. You know, a lot of these people, Sean, they, they were young. They didn't have a job. If they did, it was just some odd job stuff. It was definitely not a nine to five.

• 3:52:29Speaker 02

  Didn't have a car, a lot of them had to borrow a car. Uh, but they're building a kit. They were wearing cry precision plate carriers. That's the same damn thing the FBI wears. They're not cheap. Yep. You don't have a job, but that's what you're wearing. Uh, you got your gun belts.

• 3:52:47Speaker 02

  One guy in the group, he did have a job. He was 30 something, former army as well. He had a 6.5 Creedmoor and bought a $6,000 thermal scope. Because the idea was is that would level the playing field at night, even if he's not that good of a sniper. They were talking about taking out cops in nighttime. I mean, well, you, all right, just finish the car stop, pow. Take the cop out like the sniper kind of DC sniper thing. Do that. You kill a cop. What do you get? You get bullets. You get a gun. You get a bulletproof vest, a radio. What else they got? They were talking all kinds of crazy stuff. So I start getting into the group and the first, so that was a Friday I met them.

• 3:53:31Speaker 02

  Saturday I got up, came back over. Two other members were there from the Maryland cell. They had driven in through the night. So there's five of us. And that day, uh, carbine, uh, firearms and tactical training was given by a 19 year old kid. And it was good. It was good. It was good. He knew what he was doing. Yeah, it was good. Not the best. There were some things I saw that could use some correcting, but I was also the principal tactical instructor. I'm not saying I'm a be all end all, but you know, from here to LA, if people got enough experience and have been around, but most of your tactics and stuff should be similar, but, um,

• 3:54:11Speaker 02

  definitely didn't come in as an instructor because I don't want to instruct them. That'd be a liability. I don't want to make anybody planning to do bad things. A better shooter and a better attacker. But I'll tell you, it woke me up because I went back to put on the training for the Knoxville division. And I told all the agents and, and task force, everybody was out there shooting. I go, man, I was just with these people for like three days and a 19 year old kid led, clearing everything. And I'm like, okay, you're too young, I think, to have been in the military and be out, right? I'm like, I go, where did you learn this? I think it was gaming and his dad took him to a, a range. And I mean, he was fast shooting, fast shooting and accurate. Some of his shots

• 3:54:52Speaker 02

  were so fast and they did Adderall, so that probably had a little bit to do with it, but they, it was fast and he wasn't like riding it. You know, you can ride the recoil. You know, and get that little finger bump on a, a AR or a semi-automatic. Um, he wasn't doing that. And then you start hearing the plans and the hate. And so now we're uncovering more. So you're learning more about this stuff. But again, I say again, as if I told it before, I hate when I do that. I'm sorry. But you have to look at, we've got reports of crazy stuff. We've got enough reason to open a case. But are these guys just spewing trash that's first amendment protected? Or are they actually planning on doing something wrong?

• 3:55:35Speaker 02

  And that's especially in domestic terrorism. That's where you get this, there's no domestic terrorism. There's no federal domestic terrorism statute. And even if they did one, I'm not sure what parameters you'd put on it. There are international terrorism, like, um, material support. That's a good one. Um, but there's not. So, so if you're working as an agent, we're trying to find out any crime they're doing that we can just get them off the street. So I started meeting more people in the group. Um, I'm getting, gaining more trust. And we are, uh, we're seeing some people get doxed. And for the listeners that don't know, that's basically you're getting outed. So what I like to say a lot to people is hate begets hate. I don't care whether you left or right. Hate begets hate.

• 3:56:19Speaker 02

  If the right does something to the left, the left gets pissed, they retaliate. If the left does something to the right, the right's going to retaliate. It's hate begets hate. So one of the members, uh, was in South Africa and he got doxed. And one thing the left is very good at, one of the things they're really good at is doxing. They will, I don't know who's paying them. I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole, but, but they will show up at your house, your business, your parents' house, your kid's school, and just sit out there and yell and let everybody know you're a white supremacist, right? Um, and then the far right extremist person feels like they just lost their whole damn life. So what are they going to do to retaliate? So this guy gets doxed

• 3:57:04Speaker 02

  down in South Africa and another member in our group who was also an Adam Waffen member, uh, says, how many of our brothers have to fall before we retaliate? And in the Hitler days, there was an operation called Kristallnacht. And Operation Kristallnacht was essentially the Nazis going down and smashing windows to Jewish, Jews, non-whites, uh, uh, smashing windows, setting their businesses on fire, slashing tires, all that stuff. So this member called for Operation Kristallnacht during a certain amount of days. Well, several of the base members did go out and spray paint Jewish synagogues. And I think somebody did do something like slashing tires or something, but not everybody did.

• 3:57:48Speaker 02

  Um, they were able to pull that, that base member off, uh, do a wall off so we can arrest him without burning the entire case. So we're also learning a couple of other things. Every time the base gets infiltrated, whether it be

• 3:58:07Speaker 02

  Vice News article journalist or whatever, uh, every time they're infiltrated their op sec operational security gets tighter and tighter. How did we get infiltrated? How do we stop that from happening again? Um, and as I said, at this point, I'm still trying to figure out, yeah, we're hearing some hate. We're hearing, but there's no ax and furtherance of doing something bad to somebody. Right now it's just training. Yeah, training and talking. Now you might be able to get somebody. No, he wasn't a felon. Maybe a gun violation. I'm not ATF. I know there, I don't know all the gun violations, but maybe there's a something you could get for, you know, ghost guns that they're making,

• 3:58:46Speaker 02

  stuff like that. Yeah. Um, so we have a member in Canada and he went by Jimmy the Frog Rancher at first. I don't know some of these names, uh, but he's doing the poster and thing. So he's out there in Canada putting up flyers. Well, somebody answers. He goes, that person goes through the same thing I went through. Email questions, panel interview, face to face in real life vetting with this member in Canada. So his real name is Patrick. So Patrick goes up to meet this guy face to face and do the face to face vetting and he comes back and says he's good. So you get the notification in the base main chat group. Hey, everybody

• 3:59:29Speaker 02

  welcome new member, blah, blah, blah. He went by Mark or something. It was about a week or two of just being in the main chat group. And then all of a sudden this Mark dude disappears and an article drops in a big newspaper in Canada. Mark was actually a journalist named Ryan Thorpe. Um, kudos to Ryan for exposing neo Nazis, but that gum broke. No coverage, no, no response team, no reaction task force, no QR, nothing. You went out on your own and you went and met a white supremacist who's probably armed and you're just a journalist. Kudos, but please be careful. Right? So he goes out, comes out with the article, doxes.

• 4:00:15Speaker 02

  Hey, this guy turns out that Pat, I think it's their version of like our National Guard, but it was kind of like the Canadian Army, but he was a soldier in training. Um, he gets booted from that. Royal, uh, RCMP, Royal Canadian Mounted Police show up at Pat's house, take his guns. His parents hate him. He lost his job and, uh, there's news footage of them showing up and trying to talk to him and stuff. And then all of a sudden he absconds. The last, nobody knows where he's gone, but his truck is found at the border of Canada and America. So we're like, well, we're pretty sure he's here. It's probably our group that's helping him. Um, but we're, it's from there, it's, it's a, it's a potluck. You've got case

• 4:01:00Speaker 02

  teams now all over the United States. We've got our world working partners as well, but now that I'm in the group, any given time, there might be 50 members, right? It, it fluctuates. And you would say, I would identify, oh, this is this person. Okay. Yeah, that's their picture. They're in Mobile, Alabama's territory. Well, now Mobile, Alabama has to open a domestic terrorism investigation against that guy. And then this guy and this guy and this guy. And at one point we had like, with the case teams, once a month, we had over a hundred people on a, on a call. Um, and every Monday, I think it was every Monday, I was on a call with all the case teams and their supervisors. Um, cause this thing's happening fast paced.

• 4:01:40Speaker 02

  So we had unbelievable case agent out of Baltimore and the AUSA that we worked with was phenomenal as well. And they get, they went after it like a good criminal case, which I was stoked about because sometimes you don't see that on the national security side because they've never worked the criminal fast paced side. And sometimes you don't realize there's all these avenues you can take in your investigation, but they were doing some phone crunching and analysis and the, the, what they did to figure out. I mean, it was awesome. Like, okay, we know he had this phone, but it stops here in Minnesota at a Walmart, that phone dies, but there were some new phone numbers cut out. I mean,

• 4:02:19Speaker 02

  it's just all this stuff. And we get a shot of what looks like Pat and the Maryland team leader can't go back, former army guy, going through the Chesapeake Bay toll booth. And we're like, oh shit, that looks like them. So we're thinking, we just don't know where. And one day I go down to training and, and Rome and I pull up and I'm looking at the cars and I'm looking at the bodies under the awning. Cause it's kind of sprinkling rain or whatever. And I'm like, okay, I don't see any new cars, but there's an extra body under that awning. And when I walked up, he was all bushy, bushy red beard and bushy hair by that point, but as soon as he started talking, it was Canadian accent. And, uh, and he goes, you might've heard of me, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I just grabbed him and

• 4:03:03Speaker 02

  said, welcome to the United States, brother. So now we got him. Well, now we know where he's at. He's not wondering. Here's the problem. He believes he's a ghost because he no longer lives because he lost everything that was valuable to him. And some of the conversations we would have on rucks or just sitting under the awning drinking, just the four of us, pestilence, TMB, uh, Pat was now Punished Snake, Punished Snake and me, Pale Horse. Um, I mean, it's for, I just want people to understand because some people look and scoff at it. And they're like, oh, this is stupid. This and that. These dudes were seriously

• 4:03:44Speaker 02

  talking about, Pat said, on more than one occasion, uh, when the boogaloo happens, when D-Day happens, if you're not fascist, that automatically makes you anti fascist and the penalty is death. He would cry, but he would say, I'm going to give my dad the chance, but if my dad doesn't come to our side, I'm going to have to put a bullet in the back of his head. Holy shit. Now, he, and he said that more than once and he would cry when he said it. Now TMB, whose dad just went upstairs, who was down there having a few with us. TMB says, uh, I could, I could do it. He goes, but I would cry myself to sleep every day. He says, so

• 4:04:26Speaker 02

  I'd probably, I'd probably get somebody else to do it for me. And pestilence, who at that point in time, I thought, I mean, cause he was messing with Order of Nine Angles and stuff like that. And some of his prayers, when we would do our ritual ceremonies, some of his prayers were very dark and like satanic and like melting flesh and stuff like that. Um, he actually said, you guys are way far ahead of me because there's no way I could kill my parents. I'm not that far along yet. What kind of rituals? So a lot of, okay. Hitler, Hitler loved a lot of Norse mythology. You would see like runes and you would see, now that doesn't mean that an Odin is just a white supremacist

• 4:05:11Speaker 02

  at all. Um, but a lot, almost everybody, well, there's only one guy that I met that claimed to be Christian. Um, not, not true Christ followers, white supremacist Christians. Um, everybody else claimed pagan and I've got friends who are pagan and that upsets them because they're actually very peaceful people. Asatru, um, you have different pantheons. So if you're in the Norse mythology pantheon, you're going to have Thor, you're going to have Freya, you're going to have, uh, Odin, things like that. There might be an Egyptian pantheon. It may have different, but generally I think in the pantheons that I've looked at, there's usually like a, a goddess of love and some, you know, you got like a, uh,

• 4:05:53Speaker 02

  an Odin god of thunder, Zeus, something. I don't know. I'm not a guru on it at all, but a lot of those white supremacists, because they're neo Nazis, remember they want everything Hitler. All of our camo flektarn, because the flektarn camo pattern is German. Uh, they drank a boatload of Jägermeister. Um, I mean, it's German. Um, but that kind of thing. Uh, so we've had blots and the blot, B L O T, is the ritual ceremony, um, for pagan. One of the ones we had, we actually had a guy who was in our group, former National Guard

• 4:06:32Speaker 02

  as well, got booted because of his beliefs pretty much. He, uh, he was, I think an Asatru priest. So he led a blot and it was really more realistic, I felt like, but you're down there and we would do like, they would, they would carve runes, uh, into a wood, but then they would put swastikas and stuff on it. We would cut ourselves and bleed on the wood and set it on fire and we would be praying to our gods until the fire burned out. Stuff like that. Mead, they had mead, drawing runes on your chest, having a worship ceremony. And then afterwards you might have, uh, uh, is it the, they pronounced it Shima and I heard somebody say Schumane the other day, but I'm not a guru, but you're going into

• 4:07:15Speaker 02

  the spirit world kind of thing. So when I'd heard pestilence pray at those. You were doing this stuff? Yeah. Yeah, I did. Holy shit. Yeah, I prayed. I think I prayed the Rolo. Yeah.

• 4:07:31Speaker 02

  What is that? Ragnar's brother Viking stuff. Geez. I mean, my whole arm is all, this is all Viking, but for me, I was doing all those undercovers. I always knew I wanted the armor of God and armor of God tattoos. I've always seen is either knights of the temple or like gladiator stuff. And I didn't want to do that, but I went, it's really Viking, but it's really armor of God, all the shield belt. Even my lightning is Psalm 23. And then once I retired, I went ahead and put Ephesians on my arm, but um, yeah, big Viking stuff. So I'm down there doing it with them. And you know, I told them, I'm like, hey, man, I'm, I can't have fruit. So they looked up a way that where, okay, I have to be an evergreen, but I can do this and do this and sling the meat on you. And I'm like, yeah.

• 4:08:14Speaker 02

  So I'm in the woods in August sweating with my shirt off with white supremacists getting the.

• 4:08:20Speaker 02

  Holy shit. Getting the paint stuff. Have they sacrificed anything? No, not yet. Uh, not yet. So now I'm getting in tighter and some people are coming and some people are going. We've now found out where Pat's at, so we got him in place, but we're hearing these crazy things. And sometimes you hear something and I'm like, I mean, when you're undercover, you gotta be careful not to look suspicious. So how can I circle back to what was that you said, you know, kind of thing? And uh, we were hearing some things, but we weren't, we, we, we weren't sure. It wasn't enough to go charge anybody with anything, that's for sure. So, um, and right now we've got an undocumented alien in the United States.

• 4:09:00Speaker 02

  Now I've got him handling weapons, so that's another charge, but do we want to blow everything for just this? Or are we getting in even more? And at one point they asked me, they go, do you think we have enough coverage? The teams and the management asked me, do you think we have enough coverage just with you in there? I said, no. I said, as long as they're having direct messages between each other and I'm not a part of that, or we're not a part of that. We don't, we don't have full coverage. It was just the facts. You think we got full coverage? I mean, you got access. No, I don't. No, they're, they're side messaging. I don't know this cell over here. I don't know this cell over here. Um, so now fast forward to Halloween of 2019.

• 4:09:43Speaker 02

  As I take a sip of this caffeinated, not caffeinated, yeah, caffeinated beverage. I was thinking carbonated.

• 4:09:55Speaker 02

  Plugging somebody, trying to make money. Um, so fast forward. Halloween of 2019, we're having what is commonly referred as a hate camp. There's probably 12 or 13 dudes coming from all over the United States, the people from overseas for whatever visa, passport reasons, whatever they couldn't make it. Um, so we're down in Georgia on the hundred acres and we're there, all of us for a good three, four days, I think. So Halloween evening, it was weird because it had been like, it hadn't been cold that year yet. But that's the night, the cold front blew in and it dropped to like, it went from like 60 to 20.

• 4:10:37Speaker 02

  So I'm not a former Navy SEAL. That was a little fast for me to, to acclimate. I even went to Walmart and bought some base layers. I'm like, I did not know it was going to get this cold. Um, so we do, I do hand to hand combat. That's the thing I brought to the table. But you know, when the lawyers at headquarters are like, what? You're teaching them? I'm like, no, I'm not doing the Patrick Swayze rip the throat out thing. I'm not teaching them how to do that. Cause it's real, man. The real roadhouse.

• 4:11:09Speaker 02

  But uh, I said, I'm just going to do some ground escapes, you know, uh, somebody's in a full mount or you're in full guard, whatever. And uh, we did that. We did some carbine training and then that cold front blew in. And we're out there and we're just messing around, got tents set up, fire going. And I go to charge my phone and you know how it is when you're frozen and you hop in that warm truck and start kind of after, after had one or two too, you know? You get in there, you get that toasty and kind of nod off a little bit. So I nodded off and I woke up to my door beating. Pale horse, pale horse. You gotta wake up. You gotta wake up. You gotta, you gotta believe this. You ain't gonna believe this. I'm like, what the hell? I'll jump up like, what? And they go, you come out here, you gotta see this. I'm like, yeah. They go, you remember us talking about a sacrifice? I go, kinda.

• 4:11:54Speaker 02

  I mean, I vaguely remember something about, we got a goat. And I'm like, what? They had gone, I'm probably not even a mile down the road. You pass it coming in to the property. Dude's got three goats. They went out there in their flecked tarn with the balaclavas, which was their look. When I got introduced, when I got introduced or accepted into the base, I was issued my balaclava. And I was issued, uh, uh, the base patch, which was three eye wise runes, which signifies, uh, birth, death, rebirth. So the three, three rooms. So they go out there with their balaclavas, all flecked tarn camboed out, ARs, AK-47s, jumping this dude's backyard.

• 4:12:37Speaker 02

  And he heard them or they started making noise. Everybody beds down. This dude comes out with a flashlight. I'm like, it's a wonder nobody got killed. You know? So they steal this goat or ram. I don't know the difference. It was a big goat with horns. Um, and I get out and one of the, one of the other dudes in the group who's, who's moniker was Dima. He says, man, this goat shitting all over the bed of the truck. Um, can't go back. Had a, had a Chevy Colorado SR2 or ZR2. SR, anyway, nice truck, add all kinds of stuff to it. Um, small block diesel, I think. Either way, it's crapping all over the bed of the truck. And I go, well, I'd be crapping all over the place too.

• 4:13:20Speaker 02

  If a bunch of Neanderthals and flecked tarn just jerked me out of my backyard, you know? So I see Eisen. Eisen is a member and he's the one that's going to be, he's going to lead the block tonight on, on Halloween night. And he, uh, he's over there loving on the goat, talking to it. And I'm like, wow, this is weird. I walk over and I go, hey, is it bad that I feel sorry for the goat? He said, don't let the goat hear you say that. He goes, his name's Gar. He named him Gar because his middle name is Garfield, named after his grandfather Garfield, who my understanding was also a white supremacist. So now the goat's name is Gar. And he says, listen, we don't need any negative vibes. This goat needs to know it's going to Valhalla. We're, we're going to sacrifice this goat. It's going to Odin tonight. This is a good thing.

• 4:14:04Speaker 02

  And uh, and we don't need any negativity, you know, we don't need the other guys hearing thoughts like that. And I said, okay, man, I'm just going to take that beach ball and push it down and never let it back up, you know?

• 4:14:15Speaker 02

  And uh,

• 4:14:18Speaker 02

  I go over, cause we're getting ready and the rules were, hey, no weapons down at the holy spot. Um, so we bench everything and I go to my truck and I go into my listening device because if I'm out, there's a cover team out. You might not be right around the corner, but I'm covered until I go to bed. But because I was staying on that property all days, I had 24 hour coverage. They were running shifts, you know? Somewhere down the road, maybe an abandoned place with a generator in it, whatever. I don't know, but they're all set up. And monitoring and I go to my listening device and I go, hey, I'm pretty sure we're getting ready to go down here and kill this goat. And I'm like, I'm racking my brain, trying to think of anything. Should I stop this? Should I not stop this?

• 4:15:03Speaker 02

  But I'm giving you guys the opportunity. If you can come up with a reason for me not doing it, or you don't want me doing it, you need to let me know. And I stared at my device and I waited and I waited and I waited and I didn't hear anything and I went. I leaned into the device and I said, well, I guess we're going down here to do a sacrifice. So we go down in the woods, decent little walk, scary, scary. The first time I did it. I mean, first time I'm walking down there, I'm like, am I actually getting butterflies right now, man? I'm like, if demons start flying, I don't know. I'll start trying to kill everything. Um,

• 4:15:40Speaker 02

  but we walked down and we get to the holy spot and we all get in a circle.

• 4:15:49Speaker 03

  Lot of people want to talk about tradecraft, how to hide, how to conceal yourself, how to escape, how to evade. But here's the thing, the true professional, that's not the guy that's always on the run.

• 4:16:10Speaker 03

  It's the guy who never shows up on the map to begin with.

• 4:16:18Speaker 03

  Which brings me to my next point.

• 4:16:22Speaker 03

  Your phone is talking.

• 4:16:25Speaker 03

  It's talking through apps. You may or may not use, a lot of them you probably never use.

• 4:16:33Speaker 03

  Talking to servers. That you've never even heard of. That are telling them where you've been, where you are, what you buy. And all kinds of other information that you don't want out.

• 4:16:50Speaker 03

  And that's where Glacier comes in with secure DNS.

• 4:16:55Speaker 03

  You hit a button.

• 4:16:59Speaker 03

  Close the app.

• 4:17:02Speaker 03

  You never have to open it ever again. That's concealment. Spent a long time building this app. Almost a year. It's the perfect app to conceal yourself. You can get it on the Apple App Store, or you can go to the GlacierApp.com. Remember. Privacy isn't paranoia.

• 4:17:35Speaker 03

  It's protection.

• 4:17:37Speaker 03

  The Glacier App.

• 4:17:41Speaker 02

  What's the holy spot? It's just a patch of the land down there where that's where we go do our rituals. I mean, like tiki torches set up, a little square area, they may even draw like a whatever. But that's where we would hold our blots. And he just started Luke, TMB just started referring to it as the holy spot, or maybe we all did. Um, cause that's where we're gonna do our rituals. Uh, and again, it's not true pagan, they're twisting it to their white supremacy beliefs. Just like Christian identity was twisted by neo Nazis. Uh, they call it Christian identity, it's taking the Bible and twisting it to white supremacy, which is not the Bible and not Christian. Um, so we get down there, we're all in a circle around the goat, somehow ended up at the back of the goat.

• 4:18:27Speaker 02

  And Eisen's doing the spiel, he's doing the block. And he's saying that on this sacrifice, we're gonna start the wild hunt. The wild hunt in Norse mythology is essentially Odin and a bunch of other gods going out in the middle of the night and laying the smackdown to all their enemies. The white supremacy version is this sacrifice is gonna signify the beginning of the wild hunt. And that's us cleansing the world of darkness, i.e. Non-whites.

• 4:18:54Speaker 02

  Anti-fashion. So he does the block. And he comes over to sacrifice the goat and he's got, it's bigger than a machete, it wasn't a sword. I mean, if I went back and looked at it, maybe it is a machete, but it was something that looked bigger than a machete to me. Um, big blade though, and he's a stocky kid and I'm holding the goat and he's in, and, and, and he's, he's practicing, he's like,

• 4:19:19Speaker 02

  when somebody, people are getting impatient, somebody's like, just do it. This way, to make up a couple of practice swings, just do it, man. He rares back with all his might, he comes down, bam, and I'm holding this goat. He hits it right on the back of the neck. And I guess picturing the head was gonna chop off or something, it goes thunk, and all you hear is and I went, oh, I don't think it broke a hair. I don't know if the blade was dull or if the back strap of the goat is so thick. But in that split second in my mind, I'm like, oh, this is gonna get bloody, man, this is gonna be, I'm just picturing something nasty happening. And then somebody's like, do it again, it's gonna take two swings. And then somebody says, has anybody got, I think Pestilence says, does anybody have a pistol? Well, remember, nobody's supposed to bring a weapon down there.

• 4:20:02Speaker 02

  Zoom Nat says, I got one, to which me and TMB, I didn't mention this, TMB ran a tight range too. I was happy with how safe him and, him and Pestilence were running firearms training. It made me feel safer, you know? Um, TMB and I both were like, what? The one dude who shouldn't have a weapon, the most uncoordinated, unsafe, who had been up for over 48 hours straight, I think, he worked third shift in Austin, Texas, and drove on Adderall non-stop all the way to Rome, Georgia. And here we are, night one, he goes, I got mine. Luke takes it from him, he hands it to, um, Eisen. We're all still in the circle on our knees, Eisen chambers around. Starts to point towards the goat and then turns away.

• 4:20:48Speaker 02

  With his finger on the trigger. And that's when the instructor in me came out, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. He goes, right, good man, look at what you're shooting at, we're on a dagum circle. What are you doing? So he's, oh, he looks, bang. Goat drops. Minutes go by, you hear stuff like, yeah, man, you know, going to Valhalla, whatever, man, F your Jewish God, all this stuff. White power. And, uh, it's still kicking, still kicking. And I go over to Eisen, I said, why don't you put another round in it? He goes, I think it's dead, I said, yeah, but I mean, you know, for the love of the goat and all, when it arrived in Valhalla, happy. Right? Not twitching.

• 4:21:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's a boom, and you hear somebody say, oh, it's definitely dead now. So I think I'm done, no, we're not done. Now they take a knife and cut the throat of the goat, gar. They fill this cup up with all this blood. And Eisen has brought acid. So now everybody's still in the circle, but I got a flashlight and I'm shining it for, I'm shining it for Eisen. And he's tearing the tab off, not everybody did, uh, acid, I didn't, of course. But, uh, he's tabbing and then they chase it with the blood. Tab it, chase it with the blood. And we're going around the circle and I remember Luke, TMB getting kinda nervous, cause he's like, he's already taken the tab and chased it with the blood and he's like, he goes, hey, uh, I had a couple of beers before this, I've never done this before, is it okay if you have beer?

• 4:22:15Speaker 02

  What, what happens if you have beer? He's just going, what happens if you have beer and you haven't done it? I look at, I go, it's a little late.

• 4:22:22Speaker 02

  You're on it now. Just go for the ride, yeah. Questions you should have asked before. Um, so we get around, we're getting towards the end of the circle. And, uh, Big Seed starts puking. And I'm like, okay, and it gets to me, I think I'm the last one. Uh, I can't remember if Eisen had done it yet. I'm either last or Eisen's last, but it gets to me. And I look down on the cup and it's already coagulating. It's just chunky, clotty, big, that I'm like, oh God, I don't wanna turn that up. I don't wanna do it. I'm like, I'm gonna puke, I don't wanna do it. And I, I think Pestilence gave me it out. But either way, I just took two fingers and went deep into the blood, pulled them out, sucked all the blood off.

• 4:23:06Speaker 02

  And, uh, I think I brought, yeah, I, I carried a beer down there luckily, so I chased it down with a beer. But, uh, then they start commencing to cutting the animal all to pieces, throw its stomach, sac and intestines into the creek. Uh, What the fuck? Carried the head of gar around, there's, there's pictures everywhere, like, um, it turns out that there was another infiltrator in the base, not law enforcement though. Um, they had infiltrated just before me, but it made sense once it came out because I'm like, how the hell do they get in these pictures, man? Cause like literally, we would do a training, Halloween, and then like the next week, BBC and The Guardian,

• 4:23:47Speaker 02

  uh, overseas, they got me sitting right there doing a Sig how, holding a machine gun, us holding the head of the goat with the flag and everybody doing a Sig how or a weapons video. You? Yeah. Yeah, but, but we're all wearing balaclavas and then we black out our face, cause they're huge on anonymity, because they don't wanna get doxxed. So before a photos, before a photo shoot, which is really what it is, it might be like, hey, pale horse, man, you can see your tats. I'm like, shit, the shirt's too short. I went over, I cut black socks and made like sweatbands so I can cover that. If Pestilence's hair was sticking out, I'd be like, hey, your ponytail's hanging out, man, how, cause they didn't wanna be doxxed. We wanna be anonymity.

• 4:24:27Speaker 02

  So then, uh, the next day of training is foobar, screwed, because they are all, I mean, uh, maybe like three people didn't do acid, everybody's up high all night. I did have fun messing with them with a head at guard when they were all high and stuff, cause I was bored, but you know, I'm like, I'm like, why did you do this? Uh, I'm leaving the face and they're like, shit, you know?

• 4:24:51Speaker 02

  But, uh, so the next day's shot, now Saturday comes, now we're back, now we're training. Uh, they pull out the wand, they lined everybody up, pull the wand out that they used on me to wand everybody, they're going through people's tents. And I'm thinking to myself, man, what if one of these dudes has something? Because they're holding us at gunpoint, going through it, I'm fine, I, I walked right up, I'm like, you did me first, man, here. Um, and they, they padded me down, but on that search, Luke's walking up and down the line with this, with the revolver in his hand, ready to go. Punished Snake standing on a little hump, maybe like to the corner of your room here, on a hump with the, with the AR. And it's like, if you run, you're gonna get shot, you know?

• 4:25:32Speaker 02

  It was a nervous moment for a lot of people and I was nervous because I'm like, what if one of these dudes has something in their truck? Or in their tent and these guys wanna kill somebody? How am I gonna deal with that? Do I sit there and watch somebody die? I'm, no, but can I effectively engage at this point? I don't know, there's things that just run through your head. So we finished that, we did a lot more training, a lot more firearms, and that night we go down, back to the holy spot. A tiki torch walk, um, it's all in, it's all in a video that was released for propaganda. Um, but we go down that night and start a bonfire and, uh, we burn American flag. And we burn holy bibles.

• 4:26:17Speaker 02

  And, and they're, while they're screaming, F your Jewish God, death to America, F Jesus. How are you dealing with this as a Christian? Yes, uh, tough. I mean, all of it. Yeah, tough. Yeah, that was a little dark. How do you, how do you, I mean, how do you? What is, is that going through your head at all? Yeah, um, yeah, and after, after this weekend, I did, I did text my pastor, I'm like, I know it's hard for grown men to reach out for help sometimes, I go, but I could use some prayers, cause I just did some stuff in the last couple of days and I just don't feel right, you know? Yeah. Um, but let me tell you what happened. Uh, we're burning.

• 4:26:58Speaker 02

  Uh, the Zoom Nat kid almost fell in the fire trying to burn the American flag, I grabbed the other side. Hindsight, I probably should have let him go, you know?

• 4:27:09Speaker 02

  Not a bad idea. Look at that, white supremacy's on fire.

• 4:27:13Speaker 02

  He's on fire for Jesus. Uh, but I did that and then I'm watching them put the bibles in, holy bibles face for opening up face, open the face up and putting it face down in the fire.

• 4:27:27Speaker 02

  So the fire starts building up and eventually it starts dying down. And Punished Snake, he's just stoking the coals. He's just stoking the coals. Well, as he's stoking the coals, you know how you can see like if you look at a magazine or something or a book that's been burnt in the fire? You see like the little frayed edges and you can see the sheets kinda? Well, he's stoking the coals and stoking the coals and boom, a Bible opens up. Face open, not a page burning it. No kidding? No, and it's like, what? And like, no, I was like, I saw you put that thing face first. Like, I'm pretty sure I saw that. Well, the propaganda video shows it going down on the fire. Um, I got a picture, it's in the book. If you blow it up, that was taken, because they were taking pictures, I took pictures, that

• 4:28:13Speaker 02

  later on, I was just going through pictures and I blew it up. When you blow it up, you can clearly see Holy Bible in the middle of the fire. And, uh, he starts tearing page by page, gets this thing going. Uh, and now the fire's going again and we're out there, hate, hate, hate, spew hate, hate, hate, hate. White power, all this stuff, Sig howl, and, uh, fire starts dying down again. And he starts stoking the coals again. And as he's stoking them, he flips and I'll be damned if the second Bible, those, I probably shouldn't say damned in the but I'll be damned. He flips the Bible and it opens up, not a page burnt. To, to the point to where one of the members of the base goes, man, these effing Bibles just won't burn.

• 4:28:57Speaker 02

  Now, inside, I didn't do it outside, but in my head, I was like, little Sammy Sussa up to go. I'm thinking up what you're putting down. Uh, you know, I've heard people argue, well, some Bibles pages are made out of clay and they won't burn. And I'm like, bro, whatever. I'm, I watched the flag burn. I watched all kinds of stuff burn. It didn't burn. I wish I could have seen what, what it opened to, like what book? That's what I was gonna say. Yeah, what book? That'd be nice if I could blow one up. I'd never found a picture where I could like see and blow it up. But yeah, that was pretty amazing. But, so at the end of that night, it's now Saturday night. Everybody's winding down. Some people are leaving because they got long drives back. But, um,

• 4:29:41Speaker 02

  I'd gained enough trust with Pestilence and TMB. And I circled back on something that we had talked about. Of course, I knew what I was trying to find out because the case team knew as well. It's something we heard and we weren't sure what they meant. Circle back on it when it's not not gonna look suspicious. And I said, hey, man, remember that night we were talking about blah, blah, blah? And however I worded it, they're like, they're like, yeah, we'll tell you. Let's put the phone on airplane mode. Well, by this time, nobody's checking it. I go, yeah, it's on airplane mode. I only put it on airplane mode. If they go over and check it later, I'll be like, oh, I'm an idiot. I thought I put it on airplane mode. If you're not gonna check it, I'm not gonna do it.

• 4:30:19Speaker 02

  But they were talking and they said that they were planning some things. Like they have a list they're forming, but nobody said we're gonna hurt anybody. And I'm like, okay. But I do remember Pestilence looking at TMB and TMB kinda leaning in and whispering to Pestilence and them saying, yeah, I think we can trust Pelle Horse. And then, and now, now things are going. So after Halloween camp, Punished Snake goes back to the Maryland Delaware area with Can't Go Back. So now it's just back to our normal group, the four of us in the, in the Georgia cell. Um, there was a guy named Helter Skelter in there who claimed that he was the perfect

• 4:31:01Speaker 02

  basically white supremacist in hiding because he was an IT specialist, had a nine to five job and had a girlfriend. According to him, he was off the grid as far as being on anybody's radar, but for two years, he'd been wanting to kill somebody in an attack. For two years, he's been wanting to kill somebody? Yeah, wanting. Been, been preparing for this for two years. So we get, we get a, a DM just within the Rome, Georgia group. And in that DM is telling us, hey, we're going on a camping trip. Bring blah, blah, blah. Everything read, it's exactly like we were gonna be going out putting up posters. Except he said something to the effect of, but bring your weapons. And we're like, what the hell? Why would I be bringing my weapons if we're going out? Why did he say that?

• 4:31:45Speaker 02

  And, you know, I would like to find out, the case teams would like to find out before I walk in there on a night and then find out something bad's gonna happen. So I called Luke at the nudging of the case team in Atlanta. I called Luke on wire and I'm talking, I'm trying to find out what's going on. And he's just giggling. And I'm like, listen, man, you know, I've, I haven't told you everything I've done. You don't need to know what I've done. But what are we planning on doing? Is this something I'd wanna drive a different vehicle to? Like, is this something that I don't want my plates being seen? You know what I mean? Something that doesn't come back to me? And he just giggled. I couldn't get nothing out of him. So that's a Monday night. So Thursday, I call back doing the same thing. He's still giggling.

• 4:32:28Speaker 02

  And I'm like, bro, it's about to be D-Day, crunch time, not D-Day the way I've been mentioning it. Like, we're about to be this date that he's saying we're going on a camping trip. And somewhere in the conversation, he says, oh, I'll tell you, face to face. He goes, I'll tell you, I'm just not gonna talk about it over a phone. And I go, oh. How's tomorrow? Cause I'm driving through there. I wasn't, but I am now. I get off the phone with him. I call the case team. I said, you guys ready for tomorrow? Let's go. So I drive over and it's afternoon and, you know, I wake him up at the crack of two in the afternoon. And, uh, he comes down and I'm like, hey. Uh, I said, morning sunshine. Sorry to wake you from your beauty nap or whatever. So we put our phones on airplane mode and stick them in the cooler.

• 4:33:12Speaker 02

  He's got like a little, not a Faraday bag, but he's got something like plastic. He puts them in. I don't know if he thinks that does something, or maybe it did. We walk over to the edge of the barn and I said, listen, you know, I'm a jester and you know, I love to have fun, but when it's time, time to do business, I'm serious. So

• 4:33:30Speaker 02

  what are we doing? And he says, essentially, we're gonna whack some people. Kill somebody. And I said, well, that's way different than putting up flyers. And it's definitely nothing I would wanna drive my personal vehicle to, man. What in the hell? So he starts talking and telling me that him and Pestilence have already identified several people. Um, but this was a, a couple that they believed to be active in the Atlanta Antifa, Antifa, anti fascist group. Um, and they wanted to murder him. And when I started looking at his plan and now I'm trying to slow him down. Now it's like, okay, like a murder for hire. If a murder for hire, somebody comes and hires me, number one, I don't want them leaving

• 4:34:13Speaker 02

  without me getting the ticket. I, I wanna make sure that I'm the guy that you want. Because I don't need you leaving our meeting and going soliciting other people to murder somebody. You know, I wanna make sure I'm the guy. So now I've got him and he's explaining things to me and man, compared to the operational security that he put into writing the rules for your, your, your bug out bag or the rules for putting up flyers. I'm like, this is just so haste and not operationally secured at all. So I started trying to let him tell me what the plan was. And then I pointed out to him, bro, why? You hadn't even been by the place? No. And I'm like, and we're planning on doing this, what, in two days? He's like, yeah. And I go,

• 4:34:56Speaker 02

  I go, why the haste, man? Look at how thorough you was on this stuff. And he was like, or were on this stuff. And he's like, I'm just tired of waiting. And then I remembered, just like I was on the Outlaws case, I was a site survey specialist. And I said, let me do my work. I said, I'm down here anyway. I said, this is what I do. I pull, I mean, I'm pulling residential, I'm pulling schools, I'm pulling ethnicity, I'm pulling crime rates, I'm pulling income, I'm pulling all kinds of stuff. I said, this is what I do when I'm doing a site survey. I said, I can do all that and get everything we need about that house. And it'd be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. I said, because it's just gonna look like I'm doing my job. And he's like, man, I like that. Man, I like that. He even was so, uh, he, he wouldn't

• 4:35:42Speaker 02

  write anything down. He tore me off a piece of paper, so no indentions. And he showed me the phone. He wouldn't even say it. He wanted me to write it down. The address and the people's names. So I did that. I start doing research. Helter Skelter had to get a back surgery, so just to, just to shave the dis. So now we're gathering over at Axe and further and stuff. Uh, Luke has gone, by the time we finished the plan, um, originally, he just wanted me driving, but somewhere in there, he's doing all this research. I'm talking about like,

• 4:36:13Speaker 02

  Uh, catch bags, bought four catch bags to go on our ARs. If we have to shoot them, the brass won't fall. Nothing for cops, right? Revolvers, brass doesn't drop. Nothing for the cops. Uh, made a silencer for, I'm pretty sure it was a 25. It wasn't a 20. I'm pretty sure it was a 25 semi auto. Uh, made a silencer for it. That's gonna be the head shotgun. Um, we canvassed the house three different times. I did it once with Luke. It was me, Luke and Pestilence that did it. And then me, Luke and Helter Skelter went back one night and did it. Um, you're hearing things like Helter Skelter saying, hey, if somebody asks, hey, are there any kids in the house? Helter says, I have no problem shooting a commie kid.

• 4:36:56Speaker 02

  You, you're riding out there with Helter and, uh, it was either Helter or Luke says, hey, I think Helter wants to pop his cherry on this one. And I'm driving and I'm like, what? Pop your cherry? I'm like, what are you talking about? I think that means two different things to us. He said, no, he actually wants to put a bullet in one of his head. And I said, okay. I said, well, it's a 25, right? I'm like, yeah, this probably will take more than one shot. I think that's doable. So by the time everything finished, uh, Luke had done research and the idea was this, we were gonna meet at a camping site. We were gonna leave all of our, all of our electronics, everything there, phone, watches, whatever. Nothing electronic goes with you. Stays at the campsite. We're gonna go to a pay by the hour motel. We're gonna get in there.

• 4:37:39Speaker 02

  We're all gonna shower. We're gonna take a loofah. We're gonna scrub. This is all his advice. This is all his research. Scrub any dead skin flakes off. We're gonna do like hazmat. We're gonna take our pants and we're gonna blouse them or put them over our boots and tape them. We're gonna tape our gloves to our, uh, shirts. Um, he even said the Vaseline facial hair. So you don't drop any hair. He had done enough research to where he had read that a lot of people who murder somebody for the first time lose control of their bowels. So he suggested we all wear Depends in case we lose control of our bowels when we kill these people. Holy shit. Now, you're gonna hear counter arguments that said, oh, Scott came up with that plan. I was

• 4:38:21Speaker 02

  just as shocked as everybody else was when I'm hearing this. I'm like, I can't come up with that shit. So when he said the defense part though, I looked at him, I said, I think I'll be all right. I didn't say I killed anybody. I said, I think I'll be all right. I don't need any diapers. He took that as I probably killed somebody. So he bumped me up on the list from driving to, it was gonna be, once we were ready, we're gonna go, we're gonna have a pick lock. If it didn't work, we're gonna kick the door in. There was a bay window, um, that protruded from the house a little bit, but it was a great spot to do Overwatch. Um, and Helter was gonna post there. Me and Luke, this is what I was told, we're gonna go down, we're gonna shoot

• 4:39:04Speaker 02

  the parents. If there's anything else, we're gonna do whatever. But of course, Helter wants a shot now too. And then, uh, and then Pestilence was gonna set the place on fire. Once we, once we were done. And what I learned is that he was also creating a list, uh, and it had journalists, left, left journalists, um, TV anchors. And I'm like, so you legitimately wanna keep killing people? And we're gonna start taking off people who are kinda famous? He said, yeah. And I said, well, it's a good thing we're doing this family first. It'll be a nice, you know, warm up, if you will. So while all that's going on, you've got other sales being created like in Michigan.

• 4:39:47Speaker 02

  Um, and they're going out and doing stuff. Now they're doing propaganda videos and they're putting up flyers and they're talking crazy shit. And we might be on a wire call together. Um, if, if we wouldn't have taken the case down of the base when we did, that, the week we did it, that weekend, I was gonna be in Michigan training with those guys. Um, in Bad Axe, Michigan. So, and again, the recruitment videos are getting better and better, better and better. That was another rule. Every, every new video had to be way better than the last one. They did one and it's got Congress. It's got scenes from congressional hearings and they're talking about the base. They're talking about Pat being, uh, absconded illegally in the United States and we don't know where he's at, kinda thing. Um, but Pat and Can't Go Back and Eisen

• 4:40:32Speaker 02

  and the group up there, everybody was looking 2020 COVID year, even though COVID was already here. They were calling it flu A and B, whatever. Uh, but January of 2020 was gonna be a gun rights rally in Virginia. At that time, the governor was a Democrat and was pretty strict on gun policy. So there's gonna be a second amendment gun rights rally. So a lot of base members are like, what if that's the kickoff to the boogaloo? Again, boogaloo being D-Day. Um, and now we can just clean house. Uh, what if that's the kickoff to the boogaloo? And they had been planning on initiating. So the things we were picking up, we, the FBI, they did, that Baltimore crew I

• 4:41:13Speaker 02

  told you about is unbelievable. They did a wiretap. They tapped into, uh, the apartment of, uh, Can't Go Back and Punished Snake. If I thought they talked crazy around me, when we've been sitting, talking crazy stuff, the stuff they spewed by themselves in that apartment, holy cow. I'm talking like that old eighties movie, The Boys Next Door thing, man. It's like just violent. They were talking about breaking out the saints. So in case you don't know, these accelerationists, they refer to your white supremacy mass shooters as saints. I'm not gonna say their name on your show, cause this is something we're doing in the tactical world now. It says, don't name them. So the Charleston shooter, I'm not gonna say his name. He doesn't

• 4:41:57Speaker 02

  need any more fame. I'll name every victim. I'm not gonna name, even though it wasn't white supremacy, I'm not gonna name the Columbine kids' names. I'll name the victims. I'm not gonna name the Tree of Life shooter. I'm not gonna name the Christchurch shooter, the Norway shooter. But they have, Sean, they literally have, uh, and maybe I can send it to you if you want, and you can post it when you put this out there. It, it is a, is a leaderboard and it's the saints. And it's got, it's got the Norway shooter at number one, 77 and O. It's got the Christchurch shooter at like 55 and O. And it goes down. You got the Charleston shooter at nine

• 4:42:37Speaker 02

  and O. And it says, saint, saint, saint, the saint leaderboard. What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do to make the board kinda thing? So we get them talking about breaking the saints out. As insane as it is, they're like, okay, Charleston shooters in Terre Haute, Indiana. Let's pull it up. They're pulling up the prison system and looking and going, okay, but what if we rolled it? How awesome would it be if the boogaloo hits and we roll in and break out a saint? How awesome is the base gonna be? And I told you, they're talking about shooting cops. They're talking about, I mean, they're just very, very dark stuff, man. Coal burner. That means a white woman that's been with a non-white dude. And he's like, I'll take that coal burner, put her, I can't wait to put her up on the wall and drive a gun into her mouth and blow her head off. Crazy shit like that. Um,

• 4:43:22Speaker 02

  Holy shit. But their plan was, is to go to the rally, cause you're gonna have most likely anti-government. You're gonna have some three percenters, which is not illegal, but you're gonna have anti-government, militia type stuff. You're gonna have Antifa. You're gonna have cops. What if you pop a round off and nobody knows who's shooting at who? And then all of a sudden, everybody starts shooting each other. What's that? What if that's the kickoff to the boogaloo? Again, not a lot of forethought or afterthought. But I will tell you that in the base, ethno-states wasn't like the entire state, but my crew, my crew and the, uh, the sales of Maryland, Delaware and North Georgia, we were looking at property in the Appalachian Mountains to buy to create our own compound. The Detroit and, and North Midwest, they were looking in the upper peninsula of

• 4:44:07Speaker 02

  Michigan. They had already found some property. Uh, they had, they had converted a, uh, former chief of police, who was no longer a chief of police because of his conflict of interest in his belief system. Um, but they had recruited one of the base member's moms who's a nurse. And they're talking about, well, this'll be, I know it may sound crazy, but they're planning it. And they're talking, well, this nurse, she's a nurse. She can help birth the kids and this, that and the other crazy stuff. Uh, Nazaro had property in, uh, Pacific Northwest. So,

• 4:44:39Speaker 02

  so we rolling into that and now we're on this timeline. We're on this clock that's ticking. And can, can, can the stars align and us take this thing down, right? Without people getting hurt? We're hoping so. We're betting on it. And that last week, actually the week we were supposed to take it down, my back started spasming so bad, I, I couldn't get out of the floor. And I'm like, if it was an extremity, a leg, arm, neck, chest, I, I could, I could deal with it. I can't sit. So I can't even get on a plane. Uh, I went and went to my physical therapist. Uh, he gave me some exercises to do and I went electric stim 24/7 because apparently,

• 4:45:19Speaker 02

  The pathway pain signal has to go through is the same pathway that the electricity uses. That's why the electric stem could kind of block that signal. I'll tell you what I found out. I thought it was a disc above my fusion. What I found out in January, after we took the case down, is my original lumbar fusion in 2002 had broke. They broke around, they said probably around 2005. So I had a disconnected back, broke back for 15, approximately 15 years. So we had to postpone it a week. So I jump, I jump on a plane. I go to Baltimore, I meet the Baltimore team, go over some stuff, drive to Delaware the next morning. I'm siding in, helping side in the 6.5 Creedmoor.

• 4:46:04Speaker 02

  Poorly, by the way. And side in a ghost AR that they had built for, for Punished Snake, who's an undocumented alien.

• 4:46:15Speaker 02

  Inside the United States. Actually, they messed up when they made it, it was doing a double fire. They went to the range and it was going, and they were like, went back and fixed it. So it wouldn't draw attention.

• 4:46:26Speaker 02

  So I'm there with them all day and I'm trying to get the final stuff that the case team needs. And, and I end up with them that night, we had a few drinks, got something to eat. And it's just, it was for me, divine intervention is what I call it, but it ebbed and flowed perfect. Like I knew that the case team needed this, a certain question answered. And the conversation would just present itself. And I'd go, oh yeah, speaking of that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh yeah, boom, boom, boom, got that, got the next one, got the next one. At one point, I'm pretty sure I found the hole where the camera was. Cause I knew the camera shot, you know, cause I'd seen some of the video that they'd gotten from the Title III wiretap. But I'm sitting at a table and it's, I'm pretty sure it's me here, can't go back there, Punished Snake here.

• 4:47:09Speaker 02

  But I'm staring at the wall and I think I finally found it. And when I got everything that they needed, I'd been in the floor stretching, you know, back and all this stuff. When I got everything, I kind of, I looked right at what I thought I'm pretty sure it was. I looked at it and I winked, I took a drink and I winked because I know they were watching from the other side, like we got everything. So I go from there, I drive back to Baltimore, get up the next day. Flight's super delayed, fly to Atlanta, get to Atlanta, rental car's gone. They take me to one office. They, they carry me to Uber, I take an Uber to an enterprise facility that's open, that's where they told me to go. I go, Uber drives off, I'm in the parking lot, the lights go off, I'm like, son of a.

• 4:47:53Speaker 02

  So I had to go back, find a car, drove up to Atlanta. And that's when Helter Skelter went with us that night and told us, you know, he wanted to pop his cherry. No problem killing commie kids. He had built the silencer, he had ordered the catch bags. And did that, I think I went home. But the next day I was back because I'm meeting with the local SWAT teams on the takedown stuff. So the way it worked is that Wednesday, we started the arrest. I went on a ruse because it's a hundred acre land. And it's not really an easy way to sneak up there. We just did a ruse where I took, I took Luke to lunch.

• 4:48:35Speaker 02

  We figured that was the most disadvantageous place to hit out of all the places we were hitting. So I said, I was gonna pick him up for lunch and I'd already laid out this thing where we don't need to be riding around with guns on us. Cause if we get stopped and that's fresh in their minds, when we getting ready to do this thing, they're like, that's a great idea. So I made sure we had no weapons. And as we're driving out, I went to a predetermined spot that the SWAT team had picked. And I faked that the truck messed up. And I was like, man, if that damn caliber froze again, because I really did have one. I said, hang on, I pull over, I pull up kind of next to a fence where you can't really open the door. I get out, I walk around back like I'm looking, the truck pulls up, it's actually an FBI agent. But it's a ruse. And he says, hey, man, you need any help? And I look up and I go, holy shit.

• 4:49:20Speaker 02

  I didn't know you lived, where, you live here? Like I knew him, man, where have you been, I ain't seen you in forever, holy shit, man, what's going on? He goes, man, that is a, I'm walking, I go, that is a nice truck. While I'm doing that, Luke's looking at us, but the Bearcat vehicle is coming over the hill with the SWAT team. So it was arrest without any incident. I jumped in the back of the trucks and go, go, go. They're on him on top of him, he put his hands up, no tear gas in the truck, none of that stuff. Take him off and then they go and arrest pestilence at his house. And they pick Helter Skelter up, leaving work. We keep it very quiet because Thursday morning, early morning AM. The Washington Philadelphia SWAT team hit Eisen's place. The Baltimore SWAT team hit, can't go back and, and Punished Snake.

• 4:50:05Speaker 02

  And then from there, now starting to unravel. So Friday, I'm in the main group and I'm here and I'm watching the chatter. What is this man, you see, we've got members arrested, blah, blah, blah. Now the affidavit's coming out through the day and it's like, man, it says there's a fed in here. It says that an FBI undercover has infiltrated this group. And they're like, who's a fed? And you see it going and going and going. And about five o'clock on Friday, Roman comes on and says something to the effect of, I don't think we could have done anything. To

• 4:50:39Speaker 02

  figure him out or out him because he's one of our best members. And as soon as he starts saying that and typing, I'm like, oh, he knows it's me now. He's going back and he's like, okay, who came in in July or whatever? You know, and he's looking, probably listening to the recordings. And, and then it says, as soon as he typed that, I go, ah, he's, he knows it's me now. And, and it says, you've been removed by Roman Wolfe or Roman Wolfe has removed you. I screenshotted it, I sent it to all the case teams and said, and I'm out. But like I told you, there was another infiltrator.

• 4:51:11Speaker 02

  The coverage after, we saw that, that there was still chatter in the room. And it was like, man, you mean pale horses, the fed? And the one guy's like, there's no way, that's one of the most solid neo Nazis I've met. And then another one was like, is that the dude with the deep voice on the call? And they're like, yeah, and he goes, man, there was something really endearing about him. So I'm like, they really do like me, you know? But yeah, we arrested those, we picked up some more on animal cruelty stuff. We picked up some more on tagging the synagogue. And didn't get Nazaro. I'm sure he's still on the flight, I mean, he's gotta be. But that was that case, man. Yeah, that was that case. Like I said, after that Halloween weekend.

• 4:51:53Shawn Ryan?

  That's dark shit.

• 4:51:54Speaker 02

  I would, yeah, I would come back to people and I'd go, I'd go, man, I've been working undercover often on this 1996. I said, I have never been with a group of people where I had to burn holy bibles, burn the American flag. And I damn sure wasn't with a group of people that went and stole a goat, sacrificed it at a ritual and drank his blood. And I said, I've done all that in like three days with these people. We gotta find something. But yeah, it's, it was, it was good. And eventually after, the aftermath, they, the UK arrested a 13 year old kid. For they have a domestic terrorism statute and it was a member of the base. And yeah, it was like the youngest arrest, 13 years old, I think, the youngest arrest they've ever done, ever there.

• 4:52:39Shawn Ryan?

  Oh my gosh.

• 4:52:44Speaker 02

  Yep, so it's now February 2020. I'm in Arizona and I'm putting on training for online covert employees. That are going to be working domestic terrorism type stuff. They can't do face to face meets, but they can go in type of way.

• 4:53:01Speaker 02

  And they all, I'd always heard that

• 4:53:06Speaker 02

  when it's time for you to retire, you'll know. I never really knew what that meant. I mean, obviously I can picture what it means, but I never, how would that feel? Cause our cutoff age at the FBI is 57. And I saw myself working to 57 and then trying to extend maybe a year or two on a specialty. Like if I'm the undercover coordinator for the state of Tennessee. Maybe there's an argument that we made, I'll keep him another year till we can train somebody up. That was my plan. But I'm sitting there and it was my birthday, February 13th. And we were out and my cohorts that, that were helping put on the training as well, we all went out. And I remember sitting there in the restaurant and I don't know what the conversation was or what I was thinking. But it was like a brick in the face, man, bam, hit me.

• 4:53:52Speaker 02

  And just this thought came across my mind that I'm satisfied with my career. And that doesn't, I'm not saying I've done it all and I'm the B, none of that, I'm just saying I'm satisfied and I'd never said that. And then the COVID, they wouldn't let you go to work. I'm like, what do you mean I can't go to work? So I was forced to sit at home, which is something I would never do. So it gave me an idea and a picture of what retirement might look like. Sitting at the house, making exactly what I'm making now, because you got a thrift savings plan and you got a pension. And, and I punched out at 50. I retired, I retired June 30th of 2021.

• 4:54:30Shawn Ryan?

  Damn dude, that's a hell of a career.

• 4:54:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I may bond back in, we'll see, not FBI, I won't go fed. But I may, I may, I may bond back in, even if it's just to help with training or something. I got a, I got a buddy that's, he's a, he's gonna be the next sheriff, yeah.

• 4:54:50Speaker 02

  So we'll see. But, and I've done some stuff, I've, I've, I've been on movie sets. I've actually been the armor on a set.

• 4:55:01Speaker 02

  I was on set security, I actually helped with the weapons, making them for the movie. And I did a cameo, I got my first kill. I got, I've got one shotgun, pistol grip shotgun, killed to the back.

• 4:55:17Speaker 02

  From some, from somebody looting my gun store and he dies right next to my motorcycle.

• 4:55:22Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 4:55:23Speaker 02

  And it hit number, it actually hit number two on the dramas on Amazon. Or Prime, yeah, Amazon Prime, yeah, pretty good. Pretty funny to see the weapons and you're like, hey. But that was, that was before Rust.

• 4:55:36Shawn Ryan?

  How, how prominent is this? The base, the 764 stuff, is it getting bigger, is it shrinking?

• 4:55:45Speaker 02

  You know, I think you're always gonna see people moving around. Some of these groups aren't big. Am I gonna tell you, like I've read an article, I think it was my article, they're like, there's a million neo Nazi, there's a million white supremacists and they're all gonna be on your doorstep tomorrow. No, I'm not saying that. Am I saying that it's the most dangerous threat in domestic terrorism? I mean, I'll say it's up there, but I didn't ever work Antifa or, or an anti-government separatist group, you know, that, that, I don't know. I don't know if it's the biggest threat, but from when I was working it, yeah, I thought, I thought it was. But as far as size and growth.

• 4:56:24Speaker 02

  I'm not gonna say it's huge, huge, but sometimes you'll see the names and it might be, I mean, let's say it's me, pale horse, and all of a sudden I'll pop up in a new white supremacist telegram group or something and somebody might be like, hey, were you perhaps a pale horse in the other group? Yeah, that's me. So you see that kind of, that kind of lingering, staying around. But again, I've done groups that I've been in undercover and they're white supremacy neo-Nazi group, not accelerationist, but neo-Nazi, national socialist. And five months, I've read every single post, thousands, thousands, thousands of posts, didn't want to miss a single one

• 4:57:07Speaker 02

  because I wanted to make sure. But at the end of that five months, I go to the case team and I'm like, dude, it's just first amendment protected speech. They, they are spewing some hate and some horrific stuff, but it's protecting the first amendment. And then you move on. So my, my thing is I say this, and this goes for like all extremism, especially when you get into like the lone wolf type stuff, which is what things like the siege tell you to do. Don't go out on the street corner with a picket sign yelling. Number one, you're identifying who you are, making yourself a target. Number two, you're doing nothing. Go do that hidden attack kind of thing. Like Pat, who said he was a ghost. He said, I can literally take, we could create

• 4:57:50Speaker 02

  a ghost house to house our brothers who have been doxxed and we can become a ghost hit team. Lay out there with a revolver like a homeless person. You learn the pattern. Next day they're walking through, pow, walk off. Go do stuff like that. They were coming up with all kinds of crazy stuff like that. But what I will say is this, just don't underestimate. If I showed you a picture of the kids from Columbine, the shooters before that happened, what would you say? If I showed you a picture of the Aurora Theater shooter before that happened, what would you say? How about the Charleston kid with the bowl haircut who could barely fill, I mean, couldn't even fill up a, a gold gym tank top, holding a rebel flag and a 45 in his hand? What would you have said? But yet they all killed people.

• 4:58:34Shawn Ryan?

  After all your time at the, the bureau and everything you've done, I mean, what advice do you have for families?

• 4:58:42Speaker 02

  Uh, I'm, I'm, I, I don't like walking around on eggshells, living in fear, but don't put blinders on either, you know? I'm not saying be a helicopter parent per se, but like I said earlier, if your kid's on a headset on roadblocks in Minecraft, you don't know who they're talking to. There, there's some great stuff out there. There's a company called Bark. I actually installed it on my girls' phones when they were younger. But man, I don't know how many people they got working for them, but it will flag everything. And they even have their own phones now. So you got a Bark phone, you give that to your kid and it's got a lot more, um, uh, avenues for you to

• 4:59:25Speaker 02

  thwart bad people with nefarious plans coming in. But I remember putting it on my girls' phones and I mean, it would, you can make it as sensitive as you want. If it's suicide talk, sex talk, weapon talk, dope talk, anything, it'll flag it, screenshot it, send it right to you.

• 4:59:40Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, I'm actually working on a application with my friend, Ryan Montgomery, who we uncovered all this stuff with, uh, seven six four, a lot of pedophilia stuff. We're coming out with an app. We're working on it right now.

• 4:59:52Speaker 02

  Good. Cause that's where they're gonna go. Like even, like in the Napster days, right? You go on Napster or these peer-to-peer networks and I would go down to the ICAC Innocent, you know, Images Group, there was a task force that's working the crimes against children. Um, and you, it, it would be like drinking from a fire hydrant. If you went on there and you saw how many people were sending photos to each other and then how some of them are known victims that we've identified and stuff like that. And now with AI and these, I mean, they're making like, I saw one the other day. It's like, I don't know. It's like a robot woman, but it looking, as soon as I looked at it, I went, oh gosh. Cause I think like a bad person. I can, I can think about the sick minds

• 5:00:35Speaker 02

  and what they were gonna, I'm like, I know who's gonna be getting those dolls for sure.

• 5:00:39Shawn Ryan?

  Man.

• 5:00:40Speaker 02

  And if they're doing that, how long before they try it on a real person? And I will just tell you my experience with pedophiles. Um, if they're truthful, they'll tell you, I can't be fixed. For me, as a Christ follower, short of a miracle from God, but I've had them be truthful and say, if you let me out, I'm gonna do it again, you know?

• 5:01:01Shawn Ryan?

  Shit.

• 5:01:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. Craziness. But I'm still a glasses half full guy. I still try to be an optimist. Have I been depressed? Yeah. Can I get down on myself every now and then? Yeah. But I wake up the next day and I try to just, because you can, there's so much bad stuff out there, you could just ruin your whole life. Make you want to crawl into a room and never come out. Dude, there's still good out there.

• 5:01:27Shawn Ryan?

  Yep.

• 5:01:28Speaker 02

  Keep fighting the good fight. Proverbs, right? Keep fighting the good fight. Think so.

• 5:01:35Shawn Ryan?

  Scott, it was an honor to interview you, man.

• 5:01:37Speaker 02

  Thank you, man.

• 5:01:38Shawn Ryan?

  It really was.

• 5:01:40Speaker 02

  I'll, maybe, maybe I'll circle back when, uh, there may be some announcements. Let's see. I'm, I got some stuff in the works. We'll see. I hope.

• 5:01:50Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I'm looking forward to hearing from you. God bless.

• 5:01:54Speaker 02

  You too, man. Thank you very much, man. Appreciate it.

• 5:02:08Shawn Ryan?

  No matter where you're watching the Sean Ryan Show from, if you get anything out of this at all, anything, please like, comment and subscribe. And most importantly, share this everywhere you possibly can. And if you're feeling extra generous, head to Apple Podcasts and Spotify and leave us a review.