#30 Trevor Millar - Psychedelic Provider

Shawn recently shared his profound psychedelic experience and how deeply it affected him. So, it was natural that Shawn should sit down with the man who helped him down the rabbit hole - Psychedelic Provider Trevor Millar. This episode dives into Trevor’s story, the opioid epidemic, big pharma, and the alternative treatments to immense inner turmoil that's become so very common in our American life. Please leave us a review! Vigilance Elite/Shawn Ryan Links: Website - https://www.shawnryanshow.com Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/VigilanceElite TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@shawnryanshow Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/shawnryan762 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:30Shawn Ryan?

  Hey, everybody. The last couple of weeks, we hit number 79 on the overall iTunes Podcast charts. That's out of millions of podcasts. We hit 79, so I want to say thank you to that. My next guest, it's about psychedelics, everybody. This is the guy that was with me, by my side during my journey, and will continue to be the provider that I go to when I want a psychedelic treatment. There's no better guy in the world. Please welcome Trevor Millar to the show.

• 2:11Shawn Ryan?

  Awesome episode. You guys are really gonna like it. And if you don't mind, give the video a like, leave a comment, subscribe to the channel.

• 2:23Shawn Ryan?

  Enjoy the show, everybody. Love you all. Head over to iTunes, leave us a review. One last thing, everybody, there's a big movement in DC right now, trying to get psychedelics more available to the thousands and thousands of people that it's helping. If you're for that, I've linked how to get in contact with your congressman, with your senators below. Shoot them an email. Tell them how many thousands of people this is helping and give them a little push. Sometimes politicians just need a little push. Alright, love you guys. Appreciate all the support. You're gonna love this episode. Cheers.

• 3:02Shawn Ryan?

  It took me to my most vulnerable point in my entire life.

• 3:08Speaker 05

  For context of where this substance comes from, it comes from the back of a Sonoran desert toad.

• 3:17Speaker 05

  These are the two toxic glands right here behind the eyes.

• 3:20Speaker 06

  The Sonoran desert toad, native to Arizona, and it holds a reputation.

• 3:25Shawn Ryan?

  This toad is the second most toxic toad in the world. That was so powerful. I can't imagine people not having a breakthrough.

• 3:37Speaker 05

  This substance does bring you to almost like a heavenly state. The price to pay is in order to get there, you have to die. Like a part of you needs to go away for you to experience that thing that might always be there, but there's a barrier between.

• 3:53Shawn Ryan?

  You have to trust that it's gonna be okay.

• 4:00Speaker 05

  You know, I think 5MEO is really, really like the red pill from The Matrix.

• 4:10Shawn Ryan?

  The first thing after all the anxiety and all of that got sucked out of me, the first thing that I heard was,

• 4:20Shawn Ryan?

  I swear, it was the Earth's vibration.

• 4:24Shawn Ryan?

  I journaled the entire thing and I'm putting it in an envelope and when my son, things get too spot out of control for him, I want them to read what I wrote.

• 4:49Shawn Ryan?

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• 5:32Shawn Ryan?

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• 6:12Shawn Ryan?

  Bubz Naturals Apple Cider Vinegar Gummies, which actually tastes so damn good that I ate all 60 of them the first night I got them. They taste amazing, and man, I got a lot of energy now. Anyways, go to bubznaturals.com, use promo code Shawn to take 20% off your order. Thank you, Bubz Naturals, for being a sponsor of the Shawn Ryan Show.

• 6:47Shawn Ryan?

  Trevor Miller, dude, I'm so stoked to have you on the show, man. Welcome to Tennessee.

• 6:55Speaker 05

  Thank you. It's so wonderful to be here. Such a great setup you've got here and thanks for the incredible hospitality so far.

• 7:02Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, my pleasure.

• 7:03Speaker 05

  Fun to be here.

• 7:05Shawn Ryan?

  But just a little background on you. So you're a psychedelic healer, Ibadane, and 5meo DMT provider, correct?

• 7:14Speaker 05

  As of today, yeah.

• 7:15Shawn Ryan?

  As of today? And you've been doing this for a pretty long time now and you've healed. How many people have you healed, do you think?

• 7:24Speaker 05

  Well, I've worked with probably about 300, 350 people total. Yeah. And, you know, healing is a questionable term. You know, there's a, there's probably a continuum of healing. So I've given medicine to about 350 people and whether or not they feel as though they're healed, that's kind of up to them.

• 7:47Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I feel healed. And I went to your, to your spot and it changed, it literally changed my life overnight. My wife noticed it. Even my six-month-old son noticed it. And, and I actually did a two and a half hour episode on it, just a couple of weeks ago, talking about the entire experience and just giving me more than just a breath of fresh air. It's changed my life in so many ways.

• 8:20Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 8:20Shawn Ryan?

  So, thank you.

• 8:21Speaker 05

  Thank you. You did all the work, though. But I, I'm glad I was able to hold a space where you were able to do that work. But you did all the heavy lifting during that week, dude.

• 8:32Shawn Ryan?

  Well, thank you. But, so how I want to do the interview is we want to talk about kind of where you, how you started with this and move into some of the science and some of your own journeys that you've experienced with the medicine. And, but before we get into all that, which I'm sure there'll be a plenty of rabbit holes that we go in and out of, I got you a present.

• 8:55Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah?

• 8:56Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Everybody gets a gift.

• 8:58Speaker 05

  Oh, cool.

• 8:59Shawn Ryan?

  Especially you.

• 9:02Speaker 05

  Oh wicked, I was hoping I was gonna get some swag, man. Good.

• 9:08Shawn Ryan?

  And uh.

• 9:10Speaker 05

  I heard something about your famous gummy bears.

• 9:13Shawn Ryan?

  Dude, you gotta try them.

• 9:15Speaker 05

  Really? It's so funny, if you were to ask me what my favorite candy is, 100% it's gummy bears.

• 9:22Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 9:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, man, so thank you.

• 9:24Shawn Ryan?

  I can't wait to hear what you think about those.

• 9:25Speaker 05

  Oh, right on. Thank you.

• 9:28Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, man, and I'm, I wanna send, I wanna send you and your whole staff, like a whole, all of your stuff, so.

• 9:35Speaker 05

  They will appreciate that, as you know.

• 9:37Shawn Ryan?

  But um, but yeah, let's get right into it. So one thing that you had mentioned when, when I was down there, you know, going through the, the treatment slash experience is we were kinda talking about your goals and, and what you were wanting to get into, and you'd brought up the Tibetan culture, which I found was fascinating what you were saying. Let's start right there.

• 10:03Speaker 05

  Hmm, well, I'm no expert, and since we had that conversation, I've dug a little deeper to make sure I was at least sort of correct in what I said, because I heard it from somebody else, but what I said to you is I had heard that the reason why Tibet became so spiritual and became known as the spiritual epicenter was because the warrior class within that culture got turned on to seeking enlightenment through Buddhism. So it was once the kind of king who was in charge of all the soldiers, um, many centuries ago now.

• 10:44Speaker 05

  Um, there was one king in particular that had kind of conquered everything, and once everything was conquered, they turned towards a more peaceful, enlightened culture, and.

• 10:58Speaker 05

  And yeah, it took a couple centuries from the time that he had this vision, but future rulers kept at it. And it was through kind of that, those warriors turning towards enlightenment, turning towards meditation, turning towards Buddhism, that once that particular class had been converted, then everybody else got on board. And I've, in, in working with veterans recently, that just kind of popped in mind because I'm seeing it, working with you guys. It's like, wow, these guys have seen everything. These guys have been through everything. These guys have had amazing experiences and a lot of those experiences weigh very heavy.

• 11:40Speaker 05

  And to be able to turn, turn you guys inward, as it were, to do your own healing and come out the other end and have a sense of peace and have a sense of realization and understanding. It's like, wow, if we could, you know, if we can take the warrior class in our society and turn them towards these more kind of awakened ways of being, then I think we could change the world that way.

• 12:08Shawn Ryan?

  I think you're right, man. I mean, I've had, I, I can't name how many people off the top of my head that have sat across from me that have been through this. And everybody has damn near the same consensus after they, after they've finished the treatment. And, and I think the word is spreading like wildfire through, through that particular community and maybe even into the civilian population. So it's cool, man.

• 12:39Speaker 05

  Well, yeah, I can't take credit for all those guys that you mentioned. There are other great providers out there. But yeah, I think as far as I know, everybody you mentioned went through the same protocol that you went through, which just seems to be this incredible combination, especially for you guys who suffer tremendous trauma in general, but then specific traumatic brain injury, like firing 50 caliber weapons for, for decades, or being a breacher and getting, you know, in the blast radius of explosives all the time. Um, it it does, it's there's some wear and tear on the body and it seems like this

• 13:19Speaker 05

  combination of ibogaine and five MEODMT really seem to help somehow.

• 13:26Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 13:28Shawn Ryan?

  Well, let's start, let's talk about how you got into this. So you're from Canada. And you started it in Canada, correct? And from you, you go ahead. You actually, you take it.

• 13:43Speaker 05

  There was a, there's a gentleman by the name of Nicholas Sand who moved to Canada from the States. He made a lot of acid in San Francisco area in the sixties. And then he was actually on the run and he moved to Canada to escape the law. And while he was in Canada, they produced a lot of LSD, like millions of hits of LSD. So it really spread across Canada in the mid nineties and showed up in my high school. And um, yeah, it it didn't even, it wasn't even a decision to try it. It seems like it was just a natural thing. I remember doing it one day all by myself, half a hit acid on the way to a movie.

• 14:24Speaker 05

  And I had no idea about the therapeutic potential of these substances at that time. But I do remember saying to my friends at the time, as we're in the middle of one of these experiences, saying, this is what the world has, or this is what adults have forgotten that has made the world so screwed up. So there was some kind of therapeutic intuition coming through. And there was, you know, I I experimented a bit as a teenager and then really said it all on the back burner for many years. And then when I moved to British Columbia from Ontario and I started living in Vancouver, there was a shop there called

• 15:05Speaker 05

  the Urban Shaman, which sold some legal and theogenic plants. And I started hanging out there a little bit at that time. And that's when I first heard of ibogia. And iboga is a plant that has been used ceremonially for centuries in countries like Gabon in Africa. A beautiful tradition called the Bouidi tradition has grown out of the use of this medicine. And in the early nineteen sixties, it was discovered that iboga and ibogaine, a particular alkaloid in the iboga plant, is very good for treating opiate use disorder or heroin addiction. So in the early sixties, that discovery was made.

• 15:45Speaker 05

  So I heard about iboga at that time, but um more directly to the story of how I came to be here and work in this field. Um, post nine eleven, I was new to Vancouver. After nine eleven, I was kind of very distraught with the state of the world and was looking at ways that I might be able to make it a better place. And Vancouver has a neighborhood called the downtown east side, which is uh basically a four block radius of uh it's it's known as the poorest postal code in Canada because it is. There's just a high rate of poverty there and a high rate of a lot of the stuff that comes along with poverty like drug use.

• 16:27Speaker 05

  And I was new to Vancouver. I nine eleven happened. I was looking at ways to give back. This neighborhood looked like maybe it could use some help. So I just kind of very naively started looking at ways that I might be able to help this neighborhood. I knew I had no training in how to do that, but I thought maybe my fresh perspective might lead to some discovery nobody else is looking at. And essentially that turned into about a ten year networking and research project. In two thousand and five, I really dug into it. I spent about six months going down there almost every day.

• 17:07Speaker 05

  I even moved into uh an apartment at the corner of Hastings and Main, which is kind of the notorious corner there. And uh. Yeah, it really couldn't couldn't really find any solutions for a long time, but I kept at it and just had this intent that, you know, maybe I'll find something that can help one day. And then in two thousand and nine, I was in a meeting with a woman who worked down there and I I had been working on cruise ships for a few years before that. So I was just freshly back in Vancouver and wanted to start up my little pet project again. And through a conversation with a woman who works down there, who's a bit of a legend.

• 17:52Speaker 05

  I was looking at ways that I might be able to help, speaking to her about it. And the whole time I was speaking to her, there was a binder on the wall behind her that said ibogaine on it. And just near the end of that conversation, I said, what about ibogaine? And she said, actually, I have people calling me for that all the time. There was a an ibogaine clinic in Vancouver that had closed down a couple of years before, but their website was still up and her name was on the website as somebody you might be able to get in touch with to find out more information. So she was getting this constant stream of phone calls. And I said, well, let me follow that thread because I was familiar with the plant medicine world and it was of interest to me. So let me see what I can do with that.

• 18:38Speaker 05

  So she basically started forwarding all those phone calls to me whenever she got a call about ibogaine. And I I gave it to a couple of people right out of the gate and I'm really lucky that they didn't die because I didn't know what I was doing. Ibogaine is a potentially dangerous substance. And thankfully, nobody was hurt, but I saw pretty quickly that I didn't know what I was doing and I stopped that. So the phone kept ringing and I would essentially tell people to to go to Mexico. If you are planning on do it, doing it on your own, you probably shouldn't. But if you if you are, here's a few things that I know.

• 19:18Speaker 05

  And then in twenty twelve, this woman who kind of Had this idea with me. She called me one morning and she said, did you know that there's an IbaGan Providers Conference in town? And I didn't. And she said, well, I put your name on the list as a provider. You should go down there. So it was a Global IbaGan Therapy Alliance Conference and Jonathan Dickinson, who is a current business partner, he was actually running that. And we met, became kind of fast friends. And at that conference, I met a lot of people from the IbaGan community, really incredible people that have been kind of carrying the torch in this realm when, you know, before it was cool, that's for sure.

• 20:03Speaker 05

  And they, I met my business partner, the guy who became my business partner at the time, he had been to Mexico, he had learned how to work with IbaGan there, really wanted to work with it in Canada. So we put together a business, called it Liberty Root Therapy Limited. That's still a corporation that I own in Canada. And we worked with IbaGan and I was able to legally do that in Canada. From 2012, when we started, through until 2017, IbaGan was listed as a natural health product in Canada. So that's, that's a supplement would be a natural health product, or rhodiola, or ginkgo biloba, or something like that.

• 20:45Speaker 05

  So IbaGan got kind of miscategorized into a natural health product, which gave this window of opportunity to work with it legally. In 2017, Health Canada rescheduled IbaGan because a natural health product shouldn't be potentially dangerous, and IbaGan is potentially dangerous. So it was listed as a prescription drug from that point on. So it's on the prescription drug list, but because it hasn't gone through phase one, two, and three clinical trials, it's not available as a prescription in Canada. So it's kind of in this no-go zone. So within, within the five years I was legally work, working with it, we started with a

• 21:28Speaker 05

  three-bedroom townhome that we would provide the medicine out of. We brought in one person at a time.

• 21:34Shawn Ryan?

  How did you find those people?

• 21:36Speaker 05

  Um, for one, that woman was still forwarding phone calls to me. So as soon as we opened business, for the first three months, we just had a really continuous stream of referrals. And then those referrals dried up and then I just started putting a bit more energy into the website and yeah, people found us, so.

• 21:59Shawn Ryan?

  What, what was your, did you have like a specific criteria that you were looking for to treat people?

• 22:05Speaker 05

  Uh, well, Ibogaine is really good at helping people overcome opioid use disorder. So addiction to heroin or fentanyl or that kind of thing. So that it's good at helping people overcome other addictions as well, but it works better than anything else to get people off opiates. So, and being addicted to opiates is, is an expensive habit. So it would cost, I think when we started, probably about sixty-five hundred dollars to come in for the week. But there's, there's an advantage to spending that money to come off your expensive heroin habit. So when we first started, it really was people that were hooked on opiates that we treated for the most part.

• 22:49Speaker 05

  So that's how Ibogaine really became known in the Western world is this, this can get people off heroin. So, you know, like you went through the twenty-four hour long Ibogaine experience, you can give somebody Ibogaine and within, within an hour or so their withdrawals are gone. And then they go through that incredible journey like you experienced, but then they come out at the, at the other end and, you know, credit to Howard Lotsoff was the gentleman in the early sixties in New York City. His chemist friend said, you might be interested in trying this Ibogaine stuff. And he did. And he was hooked on heroin at the time and he went through this incredible journey. Came out the other end. He said, wow, I'm never going to do that again.

• 23:33Speaker 05

  But then he's like, wait a second, I haven't wanted heroin the whole time I've been on this, nor do I want it now. So that's when its anti-addictive properties were discovered and thankfully he was a real champion for the medicine and started talking to people and trying to get people to pay attention about what Ibogaine's potential was and he was successful at that. And uh, yeah, that's, those are primarily the people that we treated. We did do some, some for depression and different psycho spiritual reasons and helping people overcome uh, you know, alcohol use disorder and cocaine addiction. And uh, but mostly people for opioid use disorder. And we treated about uh,

• 24:15Speaker 05

  seventy-five people through that first place, one person at a time. And then we graduated to a larger house and we could treat three people at a time at the larger house. And it was under a semi-medicalized context. We had a doctor that would work with us to prescribe anything that we needed.

• 24:34Speaker 05

  We had a nurse that would come in during the actual Ibogaine experience itself. And that was good, but compared to what we're doing now, it almost feels underground because as you've seen, what we're doing now is fully medicalized. We have a paramedic on duty twenty-four hours a day while you're there. We have a doctor present when we're giving the Ibogaine itself as well as three other nurses or paramedics. So we're really kind of over the top with safety now where I've always wanted to be, but in just trying to kind of put things together in a gray market within Canada, I wasn't able to bring it up to the level that I've got it now. And thankfully, we're there now.

• 25:16Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Well, what was your success rate starting out?

• 25:20Speaker 05

  Well, anecdotally, Ibogaine has a success rate in helping people overcome opiate use disorder that's anywhere from kind of forty to sixty percent. Um, I think with all, with proper pre-care and proper after-care, you can get the number up quite a bit higher than that. But forty to sixty percent, like if you look at that compared to addiction treatment statistics in other realms, like, you know, whether it's checking yourself into a thirty-day facility or going to meetings or whatever it is, I think if you look at a meta-analysis of how successful AA is or NA is, it's, it's not more than ten percent successful.

• 26:06Speaker 05

  So yeah, there's, there's a psychedelic connection to AA we could talk about later too.

• 26:11Shawn Ryan?

  Perfect.

• 26:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 26:12Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean.

• 26:15Shawn Ryan?

  I haven't had a drink since I've been down there, since before I went down there, because I think it was four days prior.

• 26:22Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 26:23Shawn Ryan?

  No, no boozing.

• 26:25Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 26:25Shawn Ryan?

  Which was kind of tough for me. And I still haven't. It's been almost two months to the day.

• 26:31Speaker 05

  That's amazing. Well, yeah, if it's okay to share a few details of your journey from my perspective, when we first started talking, one of the, the questions on our application is, do you drink? Yes. How much? However, much? And then do you think you can, or are you able to stop drinking for seven days prior to coming in? And I think your answer was, I'm not sure.

• 26:57Speaker 05

  I remember speaking to you about that and just saying, look, you're, you're definitely, we can't have you in any kind of a detox situation for alcohol. With, with opiates, we can have somebody use opiates right until the day we're going to give them ibogaine. But alcohol detoxification can kill you. So we need to make sure that you're, you're detoxed off alcohol before giving somebody ibogaine.

• 27:20Shawn Ryan?

  That's not even why I went down there. And I literally have, I just don't have any cravings at all, none for coffee, for sugar, for booze, for, I mean, it's really, that was unexpected.

• 27:37Speaker 05

  That's wild.

• 27:38Shawn Ryan?

  It was, it was, yeah.

• 27:40Speaker 05

  That really speaks to the power of this substance, like without any, uh, in working with medicines like this, the word intent comes up a lot, like what's your intent going into this? And a lot of people come in with the intent that obviously they want to stop heroin or whatever, but to, to see, and I went through the same thing. I stopped drinking for four years after an iboga journey. And I too had zero intent to stop drinking, but to, to know that you can go into this even with no intent and the ibogaine kind of just says. Out of the way.

• 28:17Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 28:18Speaker 05

  I've got some plans for you.

• 28:20Shawn Ryan?

  Have you been to where this originates from by chance?

• 28:24Speaker 05

  No, I'm sad to say I haven't. There was a trip that I was supposed to take to Gabon and I took, I paid a $3,000 deposit even, but then Ibegane was outlawed in Canada, so I didn't see any income for a couple of years after that, or from where I was sitting, I didn't see where any was gonna come, so I had to cancel that trip, I'm afraid, but I definitely wanna go. My business partner just got back from about a month and a half there, so we do, the company does have some pretty strong connections to Gabon and really wanna make sure that as this moves forward, that those

• 29:05Speaker 05

  those people in the country that have really been the torchbearer for this medicine get the reciprocity it deserves.

• 29:12Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 29:16Shawn Ryan?

  How many times have you done Ibegane?

• 29:19Speaker 05

  I've taken seven large doses, flood doses, we call them.

• 29:24Shawn Ryan?

  In how many years?

• 29:27Speaker 05

  I've been working with it about 10 years, so, you know, I try and do it about once a year. The most recent time was just before Christmas. My partner Brianna and I did a journey together. I wish I could say it gets easier, it's.

• 29:44Shawn Ryan?

  It doesn't get easier?

• 29:45Speaker 05

  I've had some, I've had some beautiful experiences through Ibegane, and then I've just had some very challenging experiences through Ibegane as well. This last time was as challenging as anyone I've ever had, so maybe it does get easier for some people, but.

• 30:03Shawn Ryan?

  Do I share anything in particular through those seven times that was just more profound?

• 30:10Speaker 05

  I think that, that time when I stopped drinking alcohol, it was, that was, I did the medicine with my friend Mark Howard, who I was featured in this documentary Dosed With as well. But Mark Howard has been to. Gabon, he has apprenticed under a shaman from that culture, from a particular lineage, and in that lineage, they take medicine and then they'll do something called a soul journey. So almost taking people high on the medicine through uh, almost like a visualization exercise, but I think to call it a

• 30:52Speaker 05

  a soul journey would be a more accurate depiction of what's going on. But he had me write out ten questions that he wanted me to ask the medicine. Uh, ten questions I wanted to ask the medicine. And then through this soul journey, he essentially took me through those questions. So he waits until the medicine is kind of at its peak. And he, he does a nice thing to, to see if you're ready for it. Uh, I had a blindfold on and he starts tapping me here in this third eye region. And he goes, tell me when you can see my finger. And sure enough, even with this blindfold on, I'm like, oh, I see the finger.

• 31:34Speaker 05

  And then he knows you're ready. And then he took me through this, this exercise where it kind of takes you to your inner child and giving your inner child a hug. And um, one of the questions on the, on my list was, I would like to see my grandma and grandpa who had passed on. It's known as an ancestor medicine. People often see people who have, who are deceased through the Ibe Gane journey. So Mark brought me to, he, he said, now go, now find your grandma and grandpa. And my grandma and grandpa showed up and uh, my grandmother was kind of the, the unconditional loving energy that she always was.

• 32:16Speaker 05

  And my grandfather stepped forth and he died when I was in grade four.

• 32:22Speaker 05

  And uh, he had, he was a World War II veteran and he saw a lot of action. And he drove a motorcycle back and forth from the front lines. And he spent most of his life after the war trying to figure out what the hell happened through the war. He wouldn't speak about his experiences with anybody but fellow veterans. He spent a lot of time in legions, the Royal Canadian Legion. And when he traveled across Canada and through the States, he would meet with other veterans there. And he self-medicated with alcohol, with beer. He would drink a case of beer a night kind of thing. And he was a lovely man. He wasn't an angry drunk or anything like that.

• 33:07Speaker 05

  But it really kind of affected my mother. And in some way, made me interested in addiction. Because my mother, growing up, would say, don't do that, you'll get addicted. Don't do that, you'll get addicted. And in a certain way, addiction became the forbidden fruit. I wanted to understand better. But it also allowed me to kind of, as I did explore it, something kept a distance between me and any really bad addictions. But my grandfather stepped forth in this as I'm, as I'm on the medicine. And he said, Trevor, you need to stop drinking for my lineage. It was just very clear, that's what he came forward with. Nothing else, yeah.

• 33:51Speaker 05

  So later on in that journey, Mark had me, he said, uh, he had me flying. And he said, now fly to your house. And the house that I was living in at the time was this beautiful sixty-five-hundred-square-foot mansion on a couple of acres, where we treated people with ibogaine. And he said, go to your front yard. And he said, is there any tree there? And I said, yes. And it was, uh, this beautiful, we had two beautiful cherry trees in the front yard. And it was the time of year that they were flowering. So these two giant, pink, flowery trees. And he said, go up to one of those trees. And I did, and he said, give the tree a hug.

• 34:34Speaker 05

  So I gave the tree a hug in my vision. And he said, ask that tree what the meaning of life is, or what the purpose of life is. And I asked the tree, what's the purpose of life? And the tree came back with the answer, to flower. Which to me was just a perfect answer from a pink flowery tree, which I think speaks volumes of what the true purpose of life is. I think that is what we're here to do is, you know, grow a solid base so that you can finally flower. And then he asked me another question. He said, uh, he said, ask that tree, it was something about negative tendencies, like how to get rid of negativity in your life.

• 35:17Speaker 05

  And I asked the tree, whatever this question was, however I worded it. And the tree said, stop watering your weeds. And to me, that spoke about alcohol. And alcohol, my relationship with alcohol, like I said, I did my best to keep it at a distance because I'd been forewarned about the addictive tendencies in our family. And, uh, but that didn't stop me from drinking and I've had some, I've been on some benders, that's for sure. But at that point in my life, um, I, it, I wasn't drinking that much, but I was having a bottle of wine every now and then.

• 36:01Speaker 05

  And it's not like the bottle of wine created a tremendous hangover the next day, but it was watering my weeds. It was watering my depression. It was watering my procrastination. It was watering my lethargy. So after this journey, I kind of got up the next day and I was speaking to Mark about, I said, yeah, a whole bunch of stuff came up about alcohol. And he said, well, and he had stopped drinking a few years before because he really needed to. And that's the reason why he came into the, the aboga world is he needed help overcoming some of those negative patterns in his life. And

• 36:42Speaker 05

  He uh, he said, well, there's an argument to be made because of the nature of the work that we've chosen treating people with addiction. That maybe we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard. And I said, yeah, you know, that just makes a little too much sense for me. So maybe I'll try and stop drinking. The next day, I was uh, driving home and had an urge to go to the pub I always went to. And flirt with the pretty girls that work there and have a few beers. And I thankfully called Mark and said, yeah, I have an incredible urge to go for a drink. He said, well, you don't have to stop forever, but at least while all this good medicine's in your system and Ibegane does stay in your system for a while after.

• 37:22Speaker 05

  You know, maybe just skip it tonight. So I went home, I went to bed, I woke up the next day and my relationship to alcohol totally changed, like just any desire to drink, like you're talking about, just was gone. And I went three and a half years at that point without a single drink. Um, it, it really kind of just fell away joyously. In the past, had I been the designated driver or something like that. And I was out with a bunch of people who were drinking and I wasn't drinking, I would be bitter. I would be upset that I wasn't joining in on the party. But after this, it was fine. I was, I would hang out with people who were drinking and it was okay.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:03Speaker 05

  And yeah, it just, it just fell away beautifully. And then I have, there was, there was one very interesting special occasion that came up, which was my first glass of wine that I had after about three years. And I've allowed a little alcohol in here and there, but uh, you know, never been drunk and have really, yeah, keep it at a distance and respect its power. And sure, I'll have an occasional glass of wine on a special occasion, but uh, other than that, my relationship to alcohol really has completely changed.

• 38:39Shawn Ryan?

  It sounds like you had like a lot of visuals during that particular journey. I've I personally felt a lot more. I don't know really how to describe was a lot more like into intuitive type thoughts. Or intuition.

• 38:57Speaker 05

  That's I'd say primarily that's the way I experienced the medicine as well with Mark actually guiding me through a visualization exercise. And I'll kind of picture this and go here. I I like when I when I went to the front yard of my house and hugged that tree. I really did feel like I saw the tree, but I was thinking even as I was explaining this to you about my grandparents. It's I didn't feel like I actually saw my grandparents. It was like an intuitive hit that they were there. And the very first time I did a large dose of ibogaine, I I know that I did have incredible visuals. And it I I remember saying to the people in the room that were sitting for me.

• 39:42Speaker 05

  I said, oh, I wish everybody could see this. But the next day and moving forward, I can't remember what I was seeing when I said that. So the and then I'd say most of the journeys I've had with ibogas. It's more like it's more like feelings that come across me that are delivering the messages. And I I think as I like to tell people who are going to be taking the medicine is not everybody does have visuals. And that's okay. Everybody still seems to get what they need from the medicine.

• 40:17Speaker 05

  And it's when you, even if you do have incredible visuals, a month or two later, when you're thinking about the benefits you got from that experience, you're not going to be sitting there thinking about all the things you saw. It's more like what changed in your life afterwards. That's what's exciting about this medicine is what kind of how many degrees did your course change after that experience?

• 40:46Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, definitely. I mean, I've only done it once. And I don't... I want to do it again, but I don't think it's time yet. But it does, definitely. It changed. Things continue to change for the better. Up to kind of a certain point. I think I may have plateaued, but it was... I don't say that lightly, as I plateaued, like, I don't know what else could have gotten better.

• 41:14Shawn Ryan?

  But, let's take a quick break, and then I want to kind of get into a little bit of the science, and, and, and maybe some higher consciousness-type stuff, if you're, if you're down to talk about that. Great. Yeah, let's take a quick break.

• 41:31Shawn Ryan?

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• 41:40Shawn Ryan?

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• 42:26Shawn Ryan?

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• 42:53Shawn Ryan?

  Alright, so we're back from the break. Let's get into, let's get into some of the science behind Ibogaine and why it's doing, why it's curing all these addictive, addictive traits and, and it's just doing so much. It's killing anxiety for a lot of people, depression, addiction. It helped me be in the moment. It helped me with all of that stuff. Anger issues. What are some of the other things?

• 43:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, who knows? It's so hard to put your finger on all the, all the things that it does for people. But yeah, especially in working with veterans, you see so many guys coming in, say that they wanna work with, work on their anger issues and anger just falls away for a lot of guys. But yeah, it helps people overcome addiction. It helps people, um, I've seen these, these substances help people with obsessive compulsive disorder. I've seen, um, overall, these substances are generally contraindicated to bipolar, but I have seen, so you wouldn't necessarily treat somebody automatically with bipolar. You would need to really dig into the case and, and make sure that they're gonna be

• 44:06Speaker 05

  able to, to go through the experience safely. But I've seen it, uh, there's, there's one incredible case study where a woman accidentally overdosed on LXD, took way more LSD than she should have. She was a young woman. She ended up in the hospital. It was a really rough night, but when her father walked in the next day, she said, "It's gone," meaning the bipolar was gone. And years later, it's still gone. So I've seen Ibogaine work for that as well.

• 44:37Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 44:38Speaker 05

  Just, that's like an N of one, just one guy. So who knows all the things that can help with, I've seen it help with neurological disorders like fibromyalgia, I've seen it's really good at treating Parkinson's disease in low doses. You just microdose a bit of ibogaine every day and it seems to better the dozen or so Parkinson's symptoms, so, but way more research needs to be done. These are outlawed in the United States, so it's hard to do research. It's molecules that are no longer patentable, so it's not like big pharmas rushing to to study ibogaine.

• 45:21Shawn Ryan?

  I've also read that this is supposedly might be able to help with Alzheimer's.

• 45:27Speaker 05

  Yeah, who knows? I've heard that as well. Just, you know, the name of my business is Nouvelle V Neurogenesis, like it is doing some kind of neurogenesis and I don't know if that's going to work for all cases. We did work with somebody recently who was a former professional athlete. He had suffered a lot of concussions early in his career and at sixty-five or so, he's starting to see some cognitive decline and we gave him, put him through the protocol and he's going to continue with microdosing and he hasn't seen dramatic

• 46:10Speaker 05

  changes. So, you know, it's not a magic bullet for everything. It's, I wonder if we, if he had ibogaine twenty years ago or thirty years ago, what that might do for where he's at now. And that's kind of my intuition around Alzheimer's and dementia. I'm not sure we're going to be able to treat the worst off cases with this medicine, but if you can catch somebody in the early stages of those diseases, I wonder what would happen.

• 46:40Shawn Ryan?

  Is this, is it just ibogaine that's doing all this, or is this psychedelics in general?

• 46:45Speaker 05

  No, I think it's important to recognize that psychedelics in general are incredibly promising. Um, and there's a lot more science on some of the other substances over the years because LSD was invented by Albert Hofmann in the um, late 40s, early 50s. Then it was kind of shipped out to Sandoz Pharmaceuticals, sent out to psychiatrists and medical practitioners around the world, saying, "We've found this interesting molecule. Give it a go and, and let us know what you think about it." So before it was outlawed, there was massive research on LSD in, you know, there's a proud

• 47:28Speaker 05

  Canadian history to um, researching psychedelics as well. Albert Humphrey Osment was a British doctor who worked in Weyburn, Saskatchewan in Canada. And there was a mental hospital there where they did a lot of research on LSD. Humphrey Osment actually coined the term psychedelic, which comes from psycho, psyche, which is the mind or soul even, so psyche. And then delic comes from delos, which means to, to make manifest. So these are mind or soul manifesting substances. And Humphrey Osment coined that term while he was working in Canada.

• 48:12Speaker 05

  But at that hospital, they did, uh, they did studies on alcoholism. They treated over 750 people for alcoholism with a more than 50% success rate. Um, psilocybin mushrooms, or psilocybin is the active ingredient in magic mushrooms. It's kind of the, the drug that I think has been studied the most in this new psychedelic renaissance that has started within the last 10 or 15 years.

• 48:41Speaker 05

  Psilocybin is very good at helping people overcome end of life anxiety. So people who are been diagnosed with terminal illness and they take a single psilocybin session and by that I mean taking the medicine in a controlled setting with somebody sitting for you with a blindfold on with headphones on and a playlist and just going deep into yourself for the six or so hours that the medicine affects you and people come out after that and aren't scared of death anymore and are kind of at peace with where their their lives are headed.

• 49:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, so there's just incredible promise MDMA is the other substance that so MDMA and psilocybin are both in clinical trials to become prescription medicines. MDMA has been brought through the clinical trial process by an organization called MAPS, the Multidisciplinary Association of Psychedelic Studies and Rick Doblin is the founder of that organization and he's basically been working since about nineteen eighty-three to turn MDMA into a prescription. So MDMA has been used, it's being used to treat post-traumatic stress disorder and in order to get in the clinical trial, you need to have post-traumatic stress disorder that

• 50:03Speaker 05

  nothing else has worked for. And they're in phase three clinical trials right now with breakthrough therapy status, meaning the FDA is excited about what they see, so they're they're pushing things through a little quicker because there's a great need for the substance as well. And in the phase two clinical trials,

• 50:26Speaker 05

  like I say, you needed to have treatment resistant PTSD and seventy-eight percent of the people after that protocol, which is three MDMA sessions split apart by a month each with With support, with therapy before, during, and after, seventy-eight percent of those people no longer qualify as having post-traumatic stress disorder.

• 50:51Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 50:51Speaker 05

  So it's just a real game changer.

• 50:54Shawn Ryan?

  How long does that experience last?

• 50:56Speaker 05

  That's about six hours as well.

• 50:59Shawn Ryan?

  Six hours?

• 50:59Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah, so the MDMA is, you know, the street drug ecstasy. And yeah, it's, it's interesting what it seems to be doing. We call it the heart medicine. It really opens up the heart. So a way to treat trauma is you get people to go back to the traumatic event and relive it and kind of, it takes away the sting a little bit, but sometimes it's hard to get people to go back to those traumatic events. And with the MDMA in the system, opening the heart, it makes it easier to have compassion for the situation, yourself, anybody else involved. And it just changes the, the context around the whole event so that it doesn't sting and trigger you the same way that it used to.

• 51:41Shawn Ryan?

  Are, are different psychedelics used for different things other than, because Ibogaine helped me with all of that?

• 51:53Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:54Shawn Ryan?

  Is, is it like dosing that's different, or is it the actual ingredient?

• 52:00Shawn Ryan?

  Am I making?

• 52:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think, you know, if, if somebody came to me and said, um,

• 52:11Speaker 05

  like, came with a specific thing they were trying to overcome, like if, if somebody was over, trying to overcome depression and psilocybin was available and legal, I would say start, start first with psilocybin. It might take care of you. Um, it's kind of low-hanging fruit. Rather than having to, to commit to a twenty-four to thirty-six hour-long Ibogaine journey, you might be able to accomplish the same thing with a psilocybin journey. I had, once I had stopped working with Ibogaine in Canada, I had a friend who reached out, who, who had a friend in, in, really, she had just kind of come clean with her friends and family that she had a really big issue with cocaine and alcohol.

• 52:57Speaker 05

  And wanted to know if I could give Ibogaine treatment. And I said, well, Ibogaine's a big investment. It's it's gonna cost for for detox, it might cost you, you know, ten thousand dollars and take ten days. And I wasn't operating at that level at the time. I said, but as long as you're able to stop, stop the alcohol and the cocaine for at least a week before, so that you're not in any kind of detox situation, then to do something like a psilocybin journey, um, that might take care of, take care of what's going on. So that's, that's what happened with this woman. She, she was able to, she was able to put up a,

• 53:37Speaker 05

  a support mechanism whereby she wasn't drinking for a week or using cocaine, stayed with her father, I think, and kind of just detox that way and then came in with somebody and did a psilocybin session. And she, I know she hasn't used cocaine or alcohol ever since. I think it's been about three years now.

• 53:55Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. So it's, it's like a potency.

• 53:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's, it's just, you know, it's kind of,

• 54:02Speaker 05

  yeah, who knows, it heals, it heals at that deep level. I think the level we're, we're gonna talk about now, just something within the, the deeper realms of consciousness gets, gets fixed or more insights brought to, to help people move forward without the need for those substances they know are destroying their lives.

• 54:24Shawn Ryan?

  What about, just while we're on the topic of all these different psychedelics, what about ayahuasca?

• 54:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, ayahuasca is a, a plant medicine from the Amazon, Peru generally. Um, it's, it's two plants brought together. One of the plants contains uh, DMT, which is the psychedelic. And then another can, the other plant contains an MAO inhibitor. So when you take DMT orally into your mouth, it immediately gets destroyed in your stomach. But when you have this inhibitor, Mixed with it, then the DMT becomes orally active. So then it stays in your system. And ayahuasca is kind of anywhere like a four to six hour long journey.

• 55:12Speaker 05

  Um, and then you can also, you can also vape or smoke DMT itself, which is, is shorter and more potent. I've heard it described that taking ayahuasca, you, you climb a mountain for a couple of hours and then you go down the mountain on the other end, whereas with smoking it, you kind of just teleport to the top of the mountain for a few minutes and then drop back down. And that's, that's NN DMT, which is different than the five MEO DMT that you did. And that I work with.

• 55:45Shawn Ryan?

  Is that the most potent, the five MEO?

• 55:48Speaker 05

  I think it's pretty potent. I think as, you know, you use less substance and it, it takes you further. Or I don't know if it takes you further, but it takes you kind of beyond everything else. What was your, what was your five MEO journey like?

• 56:04Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, man, it was, uh, well, let me, I had, it was.

• 56:11Shawn Ryan?

  It's so hard to describe this stuff, but once again, for me, it wasn't very. It was all, every, almost all my journey, uh, that I did with you, the I V again, and the five MEO was more, more intuitive intuition type things. There wasn't a whole lot of visuals. The, the one visual, um, well, it started from the beginning, you know? I remember sitting there with you and the other guy. Getting ready to do it and you're like, look, you might scream. It's a death experience. And, uh, that was on one of the things that we watched, uh, prior to doing it. And man, I'm,

• 56:55Shawn Ryan?

  I had not been, I struggle with anxiety. That was a whole new level. I haven't felt that kind of anxiety in a while. And, and I remember saying, I was like, Am I the only one that's scared shitless to do this right now? I was like, is this normal? Cause I feel like I should have been more nervous about the IBA game than the five MEO. And um, and you guys both said, yeah, no, that's totally normal. And I did, then when we, when I did it, when he gave it to me, uh, it took me to, definitely took me to my most vulnerable point that in my entire life.

• 57:41Shawn Ryan?

  And uh, I felt like

• 57:47Shawn Ryan?

  everything bad, all the negativity, all the anger, suffering, all of that resentment. I feel like it got sucked out of me in about, how was it, thirty seconds, forty five seconds, maybe a minute? You know, and um, and I just felt like all these areas in my body just were all shaking. I didn't, I didn't feel like my whole body was shaking. I felt like it was like, maybe like half dollar size knots in my, in my body getting worked out.

• 58:31Shawn Ryan?

  That's kind of what it felt like. And then, once they were worked out, it felt like everything just got like sucked right out of me. Wow. And then, um,

• 58:43Shawn Ryan?

  and then it was all, then I opened my eyes and, and

• 58:50Shawn Ryan?

  I was looking at the exact same thing that I looked at before, but it was

• 58:56Shawn Ryan?

  totally different, you know, and uh, like people talk about the energy and, and all of that, and that higher consciousness and I gotta be honest, like I, I went down there with an open mind. But I always thought that kind of stuff was kind of hokey, you know, it's like, yeah, yeah, okay, whatever. Now, I'm like, all in. So I, I saw.

• 59:26Shawn Ryan?

  It's weird. Like I said, I saw the exact same thing, but it was. With new eyes? Yep, it was like just something switched in my brain. That's why I was asking about higher level of consciousness, because I could feel. I could feel this energy. You know, and I give a great description on this, uh, on that previous video that I released, but. I could see all the energy being transferred from thing to thing to thing, and it was all. One energy. It wasn't like. Your energy is different than my energy and different than the tree and the grass.

• 1:00:09Shawn Ryan?

  You could, for the first time in my life, I realized that was that everything. Had the exact same energy within it, and it was all being transferred in every direction.

• 1:00:22Shawn Ryan?

  Being received, being.

• 1:00:26Shawn Ryan?

  Sent out like it was all just one flow, kind of, I guess is. Kind of the way I would describe it, I guess. Amazing. And, uh. And I didn't, all the things that I've been holding on to, I mean, I. I'd known you for what, four days at that point, and I admitted something to you that. I'd never met it to anybody. Mm hmm. Uh. Not even my wife. And, uh, one other person, one other person I admitted that to, and, uh, and it felt, it felt like. Great. You know, and, um. The only like visual visual that I got was right when I first took it and you did the countdown. Mm hmm.

• 1:01:08Shawn Ryan?

  And it was like this explosion of like red, yellow, pink. Uh, like kaleidoscope, but that lasted.

• 1:01:18Speaker 05

  For. A second. Yeah, I mean, it was like in and out. So, so NN DMT, which is the ayahuasca DMT, it's especially when you smoke it, or not especially when you smoke it. It overall really does have the colors and the kaleidoscopes and the visuals. It's, um, people talk about, you know, going to different dimensions and meeting entities and machine elves is a term that comes up. There's some, some kind of machine elf out there in the cosmos that people bump into. And ayahuasca is a, a kind of more extended version of that and incredibly healing, incredibly powerful.

• 1:02:04Speaker 05

  I have, I've heard amazing healing stories from ayahuasca, which is quite popular right now, and I think for good reason, it's, it's incredibly good for people. But yeah, what you're describing about the kind of seeing the energy and, and the connection between everything after your, your journey, for me, I, I often say to people that these substances, they don't seem to add anything to anyone. It's not like you take ibogaine and, and this missing piece is finally put in place and, and you can live life better from then on. It's more like as we see life, we're seeing life through a filter. It's like we see life through a pane of glass. And as we live, that filter gets dirty.

• 1:02:49Speaker 05

  Our heart gets broken, we're betrayed, things don't turn out the way we would have hoped, and that glass gets dirty and it gets so dirty that we don't even notice it's dirty anymore. And like, just imagine driving on the highway and your windshield gets, gets super dirty. You turn on the windshield wiper and then all of a sudden you can see clearly again and. And and light and it's beautiful outside again, but while all that gunk is on you, you can't tell how great life is. And I think that's what these substances do. It's not that they add anything to you. They're just really good at cleaning that glass from the inside out. And then, once that glass is clean, you're like, oh, wow.

• 1:03:32Speaker 05

  I'm seeing things an entirely different way because this glass hasn't been clean in a very long time. But when you speak of, when I, when I prepare people for the five M E O journey, me and my team, um, with, when you take a boga, it's, there's still very much a sense of you. I, I wouldn't necessarily call a boga, an ego destroyer. A lot of these substances get, that label gets put on them. I wouldn't necessarily call a boga, an ego destroyer. When you take a boga, there's very much a sense of you. Like, did you ever not know you weren't, you were in that room? Like, you knew you were in that room the whole time?

• 1:04:15Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, no, I didn't lose.

• 1:04:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, you never lose a sense of self.

• 1:04:19Shawn Ryan?

  Exactly. Like, I feel like we could have this conversation that we're having right now and be just as sharp.

• 1:04:25Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:04:26Shawn Ryan?

  On that.

• 1:04:26Speaker 05

  Yeah. And you might close your eyes and have visuals, but it's, it's you having the visuals. It is you witnessing something. All that all, there is, maybe you interact with a boga itself and or a higher power, but it is you interacting with the higher power. And with the five M E O D M T, which is, you know, for, for context of where the substance comes from, it comes from the, the back of a Sonoran desert toad. It's an excre- excretion from the back of a toad that you would take that excretion and put it on glass and dry that out and then vaporize that. But there is also a synthetic version of five M E O D M T,

• 1:05:10Speaker 05

  which is what we use because, you know, in order to get that, that, uh, Stuff from the toad, you need to catch a toad and scare it and kind of that's where how the excretion gets harvested. So not entirely ethical, especially you don't know if you don't know where it's coming from. Some people have toads for pets and with them you can kind of play with them like they're a dog and get them riled up and that might be a more ethical way of getting the natural source. But we're able to use a synthetic version, which is just as powerful in my perspective. And that's what we use. But when you do five M E O D M T, it it

• 1:05:50Speaker 05

  it does have the potential to be kind of an ego destroyer. And what that means to me is we are completely interconnected to everything else. Like that sun above us, you know, it's it's the source of life on the planet. None of us can do without that sun. There is no disconnection between us and the light that that sun throws on to earth. And then that light gets transformed into the plants that we eat that grow out of the soil that we walk upon that then get turned into our bodies when we consume them. We breathe air. We can't go

• 1:06:32Speaker 05

  much more than a couple of minutes without a breath of air. So we are incredibly connected. We are at one with this thing that is our environment. But we have a psychological barrier that says, this is me and this is you and that's the sun over there. And that's the plant over there and that's the water over there. In reality, you know, we are those plants. We are that water. We are that earth. We are that sun. So for me, what it seems that five M E O D M T is doing is breaking down that psychological barrier between you and

• 1:07:09Speaker 05

  the unity you are actually a part of. So it's a that can be that can be fearful to a certain degree. I think what I what I probably said to you before we we gave the medicine is I was working with one five M E O practitioner at one point, he said, you might feel like you're gonna explode. Just explode.

• 1:07:34Speaker 05

  You might feel like you're gonna die, just die. And, and that's the preparation I like to give now is when you inhale this, I'll count down from ten and when you hit zero, just let go. And what does let go mean? Let go means imagine you were just out on the most harrowing mission of your life. Maybe you were out for four days on a mission. You didn't sleep at all, but everything with that mission went perfectly. You were absolutely successful. There's nothing to worry about. There's nothing to think over. All you have to do now is lay back into a feather bed and let go.

• 1:08:17Speaker 05

  So that's what I tell people to practice doing that. Cause I think if you can just let go on that level when you take five MEO and just be like, ah, then that'll get you smoothly through that feeling of dying. Because you, because there is a psychological barrier. It's real. And when you're about to melt that psychological barrier away, if you're hanging on too tightly, it could be a bit bumpy.

• 1:08:46Shawn Ryan?

  That was so powerful. I can't imagine people not having a breakthrough. But I mean, I know that they don't.

• 1:08:56Shawn Ryan?

  But is, I mean, so the importance of actually letting go, like you actually, what you're saying is you really do have to, you have to trust that it's gonna be okay. And, um, and I remember saying that to myself after I was screaming at the top of my lungs. Um, I remember saying that to myself, like kinda coaching myself through until I broke through and, um, and man, like now that I'm thinking about it, I'm just going back and I I remember the first, the first thing after all the anxiety and all of that got sucked out of me.

• 1:09:37Shawn Ryan?

  The first thing that I've heard was, I swear it was the earth's vibration. Have you, have you experienced anything similar to that?

• 1:09:49Speaker 05

  No, but

• 1:09:51Shawn Ryan?

  No?

• 1:09:51Speaker 05

  It makes sense.

• 1:09:52Shawn Ryan?

  But, um, I felt that. I could feel it and I, I could hear it and, um,

• 1:10:02Shawn Ryan?

  And then I felt like my breath turned into the earth breathing.

• 1:10:08Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 1:10:08Shawn Ryan?

  Um, that's kind of what I felt, but and then, you know, and then, and like I said, it was all like intuitive type feelings. The second time that I did it, um, I felt the presence of my best friend, no visual, no communication. I just felt him and um, and I started crawling into a certain direction, uh, trying to, actually, I don't know. It was just intuition, you know, it was like, I know he's right there. But um, if you had, let's hear some of your experiences.

• 1:10:47Speaker 05

  Those, well,

• 1:10:50Speaker 05

  I'll say my experience is next, but

• 1:10:53Speaker 05

  people, I had, uh, I had a, a woman come through recently who had very suddenly and horrifically lost her husband and she went through the same protocol you did and after the I beg you an experience, it was, it was good for her, but it, it, it didn't give her the closure on her husband like that. And it was after the five M E O journey where she's like, he's with me, he's with me. Like it just totally, all of a sudden, it just completely made sense. Once you I, I feel like five M E O has, five M E O is often called the God molecule or the bliss molecule.

• 1:11:37Speaker 05

  For one, nobody ever called I beg you the bliss molecule. But, uh, but I really feel like this, this substance does bring you to almost like a heavenly state, like, like that's what heaven's going to be like. And the, the price to pay is in order to get there, you have to die, like a part of you needs to go away for you to experience that thing that might always be there, but there's a barrier between it. And five M E O seems to be very good at helping you overcome that barrier. I once did five M E O. You can snort it. Um, there's a, there's a freebase version of it and there's a, a salt version of it.

• 1:12:19Speaker 05

  And the salt version of it, you can take into your nose and it kind of extends the journey a little bit. So I was working with a therapist who does psychedelic therapy and he's a friend of mine and he just wanted me to really try his protocol that he uses, which is with a substance called three MMC, which is an obscure molecule, very similar to MDMA. But what he'll do is the, kind of a guided session with the threeMMC. And then about three hours into that, he'll offer up the five MEO. So I took the five MEO.

• 1:12:58Speaker 05

  And normally between, before five MEO, you're like you, you're nervous as heck before going into it. But um, because my heart was blasted open and I was feeling great because of this other substance, threeMMC, when he said, do you want five MEO? I'm like, yeah, let's go. I wasn't nervous at all. So that barrier wasn't there to overcome. And then for me, it was, um, the way I describe it is this, this journey, it was like, all of a sudden, I came to be the period at the end of the last sentence of the story of biological life itself.

• 1:13:40Speaker 05

  So it was like, I, from this perspective, could properly see everything that had happened in all of creation. And it, the intuition that is, that it is only from this perspective that you can cast a proper judgment on life itself. So then the question came, well, how was it? And the answer came back, it was gooood. That was awesome. The action, the adventure, the heartache, the romance, the wow, life is amazing. And then it felt as though. Um, from that perspective, it was like a godlike perspective.

• 1:14:21Speaker 05

  And then even God died and it got even better from that point forward.

• 1:14:27Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 1:14:27Speaker 05

  So, yeah, it was, I've, a couple of times that I've done five M E O. I'm really surprised to come back to earth. I'm like, oh shit, this is still here. We're still like, I'm at a point where I feel as though it's gone, it's over. I'm way beyond even thinking about it. And then consciousness returns to the body of like, oh, there's still life to live here. Great. We can do that too.

• 1:14:52Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 1:14:52Speaker 05

  And it's good to know, you know, I, I think five M E O is really, really like the red pill from the matrix. It's, you know, it, it lifts the veil on the matrix and you see thankfully, rather than uh, like Neo woke up in a dystopian, robot controlled future. I think our, our actual beyond the matrix that we're in on this earth is, creation is incredible.

• 1:15:22Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:22Speaker 05

  There's nothing but good news on the other side of that veil.

• 1:15:27Shawn Ryan?

  Was that visual for you or was that intuitive?

• 1:15:31Speaker 05

  That was more intuitive. Yeah.

• 1:15:33Shawn Ryan?

  Do you always wear the, the mask?

• 1:15:36Speaker 05

  Um, not always. I don't think I had, I think I did have a blindfold on for that journey that I just described. Um, I almost, I begane, I find it's very helpful to have a mask on. I feel as though I begane really likes a blank canvas. My partner Brianna, the last time she did I begane, she had a blindfold that wasn't quite lightproof. And she, even flickers from the candle were coming through. And she realized afterwards that she wasn't getting a clear view in her visions because of that. So I think I begane really does like a blank canvas, although I know lots of people that haven't used it and still seen the benefits.

• 1:16:18Speaker 05

  Whereas five M E O, I think it's just so powerful that, I don't know. Does it really matter if you're wearing a blindfold or not? It's kind of, there's a chance it's just going to shoot you out of your body anyway.

• 1:16:30Shawn Ryan?

  Man, that's, that's like, that was a death experience.

• 1:16:34Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:16:35Shawn Ryan?

  That was, you know, and.

• 1:16:39Shawn Ryan?

  I I know I have more to go um but without you know um this comes I always feel like kinda guilty saying this now but when it when it first hit you know and I've I was letting go and I had that breakthrough.

• 1:16:58Shawn Ryan?

  I was I was really worried before that I didn't do any research on five MEO I did research on Iba game cuz that was that's the big you know that's the big that's the commitment. And this almost sound like hey we're just gonna give you a little icing on the cake to go home with and I was so I didn't really think much of it until we started watching uh the little documentary and then hearing you talk about it and I was like oh shit I think I should have prepared for this portion a little bit more than I did. And um but I was worried going into it I was like shit can you die from this like can you OD?

• 1:17:40Shawn Ryan?

  You know and that was in the back of my head and I was like I'm not gonna Google it cuz I don't wanna I don't wanna get paranoid uh before but once I had that breakthrough.

• 1:17:52Shawn Ryan?

  Um I know I was saying my wife and my son's name uh during my journey and for the first time uh.

• 1:18:03Shawn Ryan?

  Like I said I feel guilty saying this now but it was okay to leave him it was okay if I wasn't coming back. If that if that makes any sense at all it was they're gonna be fine. This is where we're all going and this is this is where we wanna be. I can't wait to be here I can't wait till they get to experience this and um and um but the you know the the entire experience I had with you that entire week was so profound. I journaled the entire thing and I'm putting it in an envelope and when

• 1:18:41Shawn Ryan?

  my son and any other kids that I may have uh in the future when things get too spun out of control for him I want them to read what I wrote and.

• 1:18:54Shawn Ryan?

  Find a way to do that.

• 1:18:56Speaker 05

  That's beautiful.

• 1:18:57Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, but.

• 1:18:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, I don't know if you need to feel guilty about that. I think that's, I think that's the truth. I think life has our back and, and to me, in working with five so many people now who, who go through an experience of psychological death and see what's on the other side. It's, it's, to me, it's the greatest punchline ever. The thing we're all so scared of, death, has more life on the other side of it than we've ever imagined in, in this 3D world.

• 1:19:31Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, it's, what are some of the other experiences that you've had?

• 1:19:38Speaker 05

  Um, well, my very first five M E O D M T experience, I, I think that's the most transformative psychedelic experience in my life. And it was an interesting way that it happened. So I mentioned before that I used to hang out at a shop called The Urban Shaman in Vancouver. And they used to sell cannabis under the counter in the, the Wild West of weed, Vancouver, B C, uh, before it was legalized in Canada. And

• 1:20:10Speaker 05

  I was sitting at work one day, I was, I had a sales job, I was selling software and the guy I was sharing the office with, he, he said, uh, I'm bored. Does that shop on Commercial Drive still sell weed? Let's go get some. I said, yeah, let's do it. So what I had been doing right before then is that I was on a website called Arrowid, arrowid.org. And there's a whole bunch of different trip reports of people taking different substances and what it's like for them. And I was on this website, like I say, we were bored and, um, I clicked on D M T for the first time and I had heard of D M T, the active ingredient

• 1:20:53Speaker 05

  in ayahuasca, but I had never heard that you can partake of it on its own. And I was reading these incredible trip reports of D M T, but had never heard of it before this moment. And I just said internally, wow, I really want to try that one day. Then my buddy says, let's go grab some weed. I said, great, let's go. We walked into this shop and it was a strange vibe. It was somebody that I didn't know working behind the counter and a whole bunch of people. And I, I did have a buddy that was in there. They had a lounge with some bead bag chairs where you could chill out. And I had a buddy that was there. And I said, hey, can we still get weed from this guy?

• 1:21:37Speaker 05

  And he said, yeah, but don't bother. This guy is selling twenty dollar eights. And it was some hippie guy. And I'm like, great. So we went outside to do that deal. And I, I happened to mention another substance that I had on me and he goes, oh, wow. I'll trade you that for some D M T. So four hours ago, I had never even heard of D M T. Now it's getting handed to me and it turns out it was five M E O D M T. But um, I went back into the shop and I said, hey, can we come back when this, when the shop closes in order to partake in this? And a buddy that I did know was, was, had returned behind the counter and he said, yeah, no problem.

• 1:22:21Speaker 05

  So another strange part of the story is as I'm walking out of the shop then to go kill a couple hours before I come back, a guy stops me in the door of the shop and he says, hey, it's my birthday. I always do D M T on my birthday. Do you know where I can get any? I'm like, yeah, dude, actually I just came across some, so come back at seven o'clock. So me and him and another guy sat down and, and did D M T. And the first two guys went first and I get goosebumps as soon as I start talking about this one. But I went last and it's, you use so little of it, like it was a few salt granules that we put on a bed of weed and a pipe. And I took the hit.

• 1:23:06Speaker 05

  And as it, as it came into me, I could all of a sudden feel complete awareness of every cell in my body. And I could feel every cell in my body aware of me being aware of it. And there was this interchange of awareness. Then all of a sudden, that awareness exploded to the whole universe. Like, all of a sudden, I was aware of every atom in the universe. And same thing, I could feel every atom in the universe aware of me being aware of it. And kind of the, the ego seemed to disappear right away. I kind of felt a big spiraling

• 1:23:46Speaker 05

  at my third eye area. And then I was, it was as if I was just going through this process. I was witnessing this process, but it wasn't the same me I always knew. And the, there was a presence that seemed to be guiding what was happening. And as I was there, I could hear sounds coming from the street outside, and this presence indicating that all of those sounds and every sight I'd ever seen and every sound I had ever heard had been sent to me with intent. Like, the present was literally pre-sent. It was all

• 1:24:27Speaker 05

  very thought out. Every smallest minutia and detail, there was a larger intelligence that had planned it all out. And I, it, it seemed to show me that I am the one child of the universe. I am the Christ. I am the Buddha. And paradoxically, so is everyone else. We are all that one child of the universe, experiencing the multiplicity that is the universe. And then it, it, I could just sense.

• 1:25:08Speaker 05

  Just something and my ego started coming back and I said, what? What does it all mean? And this presence just indicated non-verbally to me that it's perfect. That's what I was experiencing. I was experiencing perfection and I was trying to put words to it. I'm like, what is it? And this presence said, it's perfect. You can't mess it up. Even your ideas of imperfection need this bed of perfection before it, or else you wouldn't experience anything. Perfection is, and that's the lowest common denominator and the highest common denominator is existence is perfect.

• 1:25:51Speaker 05

  Like, and you can see it right here. Like, I don't know what's going on here, but from what I'm told, trillions of cells are working together to create this thing called my body, which I have, do not have the intellectual capacity to orchestrate, yet it's happening. So there is some kind of a perfection that needs to be there in order for this experience to happen. So this was all very short, like maybe five or 10 minutes. And then I could feel kind of consciousness returning to my body. I was on this beanbag chair and there was a chess table on the table in front of me.

• 1:26:32Speaker 05

  And I remember thinking that if, if, if I, oh yeah. But before that, I was kind of shown that it was perfect. And I'm like, okay, great. Can I go back to normal now? And the presence seemed to indicate that yes, but this is what you're seeking. This is your heritage. This is what you're after in your, I had just recently become kind of a spiritually oriented person at this, the time. It said, this is what you're, this is what you're after without the use of this substance is you're trying to come back to this consciousness. That's, that's the point of your striving is to come back to this consciousness of perfection,

• 1:27:16Speaker 05

  but without the use of the substance. So I said, great, and kind of returned to my body. And yeah, I felt as though that with my mind, I could move the chess pieces on the table in front of me, which didn't happen, but consciousness returned to my body and I got up and I literally started jumping for joy. And in some ways, I haven't stopped jumping for joy ever since. And I think that I think that's the real gift of five M E O is it shows you beyond the veil in a certain way. And then from then on, you just, no matter what happens, life's going to still throw you bullshit, but you just can't buy the bullshit in the same way anymore.

• 1:27:57Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:57Speaker 05

  You've kind of seen beyond it. You've taken the red pill and you're like, eh, I used to get super pissed off at this, but I know it's not worth it anymore.

• 1:28:05Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Have you ever been able to reach anywhere near that level of consciousness through like meditation?

• 1:28:12Speaker 05

  Um, I think so.

• 1:28:15Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 1:28:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think I've gotten pretty close. It it looks different. Maybe it's not quite as dramatic as as that, but I think there's a quiet peace that I've achieved where where I'm there. And it doesn't, you know, I I have a fairly consistent meditation practice. Uh, it hasn't been as consistent lately, but yeah, I think there's just a a certain degree of of peace that it it I wouldn't be able to function in where I was before, but there's a certain degree of that which is still bridgeable to here, which I I feel as though I largely operate from. I still get a little more caught up in the bullshit than I'd like to sometimes.

• 1:28:59Speaker 05

  But, uh, yeah, then you can always kind of fall back into that meditation practice and remind yourself, oh, yeah, it is just, it's crap. Don't buy it.

• 1:29:09Shawn Ryan?

  How long do you meditate for on on average?

• 1:29:12Speaker 05

  I have a uh, a twenty one minute meditation that I do. It's it was taught to me through Sadhguru's Inner Engineering. Sadhguru is an Indian mystic. He was actually just on Joe Rogan. I was very stoked to see him on Rogan to get his teaching out there.

• 1:29:32Speaker 05

  I, so I was raised into a Christian church. I was born into the United Church of Canada, which is of the, the major religious organizations in Canada. It is kind of the most liberal, like it was the first to have, to allow gay ministers and it was the first to officiate gay weddings. So it's a very, uh, very liberal church and kinda doesn't, doesn't rake you over the coals of guilt too much. It's, it was fun, fun religion to grow up in, but at a certain point in my late teens, I just stopped buying it. I'm like, why are these adults believing in this fairy tale?

• 1:30:16Speaker 05

  Like this just, just doesn't make sense to me at all. Uh, so I kind of threw the baby out with the bathwater and became largely atheistic for many years. And then it was actually in my early twenties, I, I realized then that books could actually teach you something. There was a, a book my uncle recommended that kind of took the weight of the world off my shoulders at the time. And I discovered, wow, books can actually teach you something. So that was when I really started a self-education process and started reading like crazy about how to be successful, how to make money, how to be happy. And one of those books was The Science of Getting Rich. And in The Science of Getting Rich, it's an old book.

• 1:31:00Speaker 05

  It was written in 1918 or something like that, but there's a, the, the bottom line is there is a thinking substance that permeates the interspaces of the universe and a thought impressed upon this substance brings about the thing thought about. So just in reading that paragraph at the time, it just hit me. I'm like, wait a second, that sounds like God. Did I throw, maybe I threw this religion thing out too soon. So I started digging into all spiritual texts at the time and started to look for, it seemed to me that everybody was very good at seeing what in religion was different from one religion to the other, but I started digging in to see what's, what do these religions have in

• 1:31:45Speaker 05

  common? And I started seeing very clearly that all these religions have something in common. They're all basically teaching you how to be a good human being and how to live happily and how to forgive and how to make the most out of life. And

• 1:32:02Speaker 05

  I really kind of went on a, a very, you know, clear religious, uh, spiritual seeking. I started reading any spiritual teacher I could get my hands on and was really looking for something and, and read a lot over the years and really had a great intellectual understanding of so many different teachings. And I didn't, but I didn't like the concept of a guru. Uh, that didn't sit well with me. Something about that word and something about the implications. I think there's just been a lot of fallen gurus and, you know, with multiple Rolls Royces and things like that. So I think that was the impression I had.

• 1:32:43Speaker 05

  And then I read a book called Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda, which is actually the, uh, book that Steve Jobs, when he died, he had that book handed out to everybody who went to his funeral. Really? And then an interesting connection there is when I read this book, it's the first and only book I ever read in its entirety on my iPhone. I got a free download of it. It was actually the only book Steve Jobs had on his iPad, apparently as well. So Autobiography of a Yogi is, uh, is Yogananda's autobiography,

• 1:33:23Speaker 05

  which starts with him as, I think, the, the fourth born child of an Indian family. He knew right away that he was spiritually oriented. His mother had been praying for a son that might become a priest or a brahma or something like that. And, uh, he, so his family kind of supported him. He was spiritually oriented, supported him on a quest to become a yogi. And when he was 14 years old, as is described in the book, the audiobook's awesome. There's a, a audiobook of Autobiography of a Yogi that's read by Oscar winner Ben Kingsley. So you have Gandhi reading, he played Gandhi. Wow.

• 1:34:06Speaker 05

  And so you have him reading you the book and he's just got an amazing voice. But when Yogananda was 14 years old,

• 1:34:15Speaker 05

  He went on a mission to find his guru. And he had had dreams of this guru and he was, he was, he was gonna go find him. So he went all over India and saw many people who were, who could accomplish great things like, you know, tame tigers and, you know, all kinds of spiritual things, levitate, things like that, like really incredible things, but none of them were his guru. And he knew that until one day, across a crowded marketplace, he saw his guru. His guru saw him. They both instantly knew. They ran over and embraced each other. They're like, finally, finally.

• 1:34:57Speaker 05

  So, and the guru said, you're gonna come to my ashram in a year. Here's where it is. So that starts his formal training to become a yogi. And I read that. I'm like, alright, I'd be open for a guru if it happens like that, you know? Give me an across the marketplace moment where I know on every level of my being that I have found my guru, I'll take that. So for about three years afterwards, I, anytime I saw a spiritual teacher or even some of the ones that I had bumped into in the past, I just did this inner check, whether I saw their book or saw them on TV or whatever. I just did this inner check. I'm like, is this my guy?

• 1:35:42Speaker 05

  Is this my girl? And nothing, until one day, I'm, uh, I, I had started the first Iba Gane House by then and I was just surfing Facebook, which I'm not on anymore, but was at the time. And a guy who, who used to be a yoga teacher at a yoga studio that I went to, shared this video. And I pressed play on this video and it was this guy Sadhguru talking about fear, I think was the video. Within 10 seconds, I think it was more like three, every cell of my body lit up and I knew this was my guy. Like, I just instantly, I'm like, holy shit, this is my guy.

• 1:36:25Speaker 05

  And I, and he really hasn't disappointed since. I feel as though. For the twenty years that I was kind of investigating spiritual matters before that, I developed a really good bullshit detector. I could just tell if something was off and what something, somebody was teaching me. But with Sadhguru, he's just been this peerless teacher who has helped, helped me a lot. And what I did shortly thereafter is I drove down from Vancouver to San Francisco, where he was teaching his Inner Engineering, which is essentially the outcome is you learn a twenty-one-minute meditation that you then

• 1:37:07Speaker 05

  do every day or a couple of times a day. So I've been doing that, the Inner Engineering, the Shambhavi meditation for about five or six years ever since. And I realized, once I started that meditation practice, that intellectually, I understood a lot about different aspects of religion and spirituality and can kind of put them together. But until you have that daily practice where you are just sitting still and trying to get in touch with something bigger within yourself, that you're really just paying it lip service. It was, it was once I finally started doing that practice that I actually started feeling a degree of spiritual peace within me.

• 1:37:48Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting.

• 1:37:49Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:37:50Shawn Ryan?

  I've, I finally started meditating. I've heard about it for years. I just never thought I would ever be capable, you know, of sitting by myself. And that's another thing that I vocalized to you guys after, after the Ibu Gane, actually. And then I came home and, and started right away. Now I do it every single morning. I think I've missed maybe two in the past two months.

• 1:38:16Speaker 05

  Nice. That's huge.

• 1:38:17Shawn Ryan?

  And sometimes twice a day, sometimes up to fifty-something minutes. I couldn't even sit with myself for probably two minutes, you know, without, without doing something, without working, without...

• 1:38:32Speaker 05

  That's beautiful, because I know that was your primary

• 1:38:34Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:35Speaker 05

  intent when you came down, is you just wanted to find presence.

• 1:38:38Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:39Speaker 05

  You wanted to find a way to just be here, present.

• 1:38:42Shawn Ryan?

  But, man, that's, um, let's take a quick break.

• 1:38:46Speaker 05

  All right.

• 1:38:53Shawn Ryan?

  75% of the human population struggles with sleep. I was part of that 75%. I'm a new parent, I'm a business owner. My mind goes about 1,000 miles an hour of all hours of the day and night, and it's hard to sleep. So I started looking into it. It turns out it's a magnesium deficiency. So let me tell you about BioOptimizers. BioOptimizers has identified seven different, unique types of magnesium when put together, help you sleep. It's easy. You take two pills before you go to bed, sleep like a baby.

• 1:39:34Shawn Ryan?

  You wake up energized, and your morning routine is just ready to roll. For an exclusive offer for my listeners, go to magbreakthrough.com/shawn to save up to 42%. Again, you can save up to 42% on Magnesium Breakthrough when you go to magbreakthrough.com/shawn.

• 1:40:22Shawn Ryan?

  So we're back from the break. We've been really diving into spirituality, you know, and finding all that after you take the medicine and some of your personal experiences. How many people do you talk to after they go through the treatment? That... Are more connected and stay connected.

• 1:40:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's a good question. I've had one guy in particular, but I've had a few people kind of reflect back to me the same thing, but basically he said, I was an atheist before this started. Now I know there's a God. And in the movie I'm featured in, Dost, which is an excellent film, it features, it's a documentary that features one woman's journey using Iba gain and magic mushrooms to overcome her heroin addiction and suicidal depression. And at the end of that movie, I give her a psilocybin journey. And she, she had really,

• 1:41:25Speaker 05

  she'd really tried to make the 12 steps and AA work for her before that. The one hump she couldn't get over was the step one of the, of AA has something to do with a higher power and trusting the higher power to help you overcome your dependence. And she just had, as a lot of people do, they have a hard time with that higher power thing. Either church hasn't treated them all that well, or they're just kind of more naturally atheistic or agnostic and can't quite figure it out. But after that psilocybin journey that I gave her, she had zero problem comprehending that higher power. Like she just really felt

• 1:42:10Speaker 05

  in touch and at one with that thing. There was, there was a part of that journey, there were no cameras in the room when I gave her that psilocybin journey, but she started, she started making some noise. It was entertaining and I pulled out my iPhone and just started filming. And I handed the phone to the guys at the end and said, I want a photography credit. So I got a photography credit in the end. And

• 1:42:37Speaker 05

  Uh, but she, one of the parts that didn't make the cut is she goes, that wasn't an orgasm. That was a life-gasm. I just felt every human emotion ever. And it was through that experience that she, you know, she still wouldn't be able to describe God to you, but she knows she's touched on a higher something. And I think that's, when we were talking about psilocybin for end of life anxiety, I think it kind of does the same thing and, and five M E O D M T. It, it really does have the ability of kind of connecting you to a higher power.

• 1:43:18Speaker 05

  And I understand that not everybody's comfortable with concepts like spirituality or religion or higher power even. So when I'm setting the intent of the week with people that are there, I'll explain to them that, look, these medicines are going to meet you wherever you are spiritually. I had one guy, he was describing his I begane experience and he, he said, and then he took me here and then he took me here and then I was above the whole galaxy with him and it was amazing. And just at the end of all of that, I'm like, who's he? And he goes, oh, Jesus, you know, so there's, there's a chance if that guy was Buddhist, that Buddha would have done that for him.

• 1:43:58Speaker 05

  So there is, and then what I, what I'll, how I, I'll, I'll set all that up and say that there is something mystical about what we're doing with these substances. And if you have a hard time with a concept like mystical, how about when you cut your arm, you don't have to tell those billions of cells how to come together to heal your arm. There is some kind of a higher intelligence, way smarter than the English speaking voice in your mind, that leaps into action and tells all those cells what to do. There is some kind of higher intelligence coordinating it. So I say, with these medicines, we're at least calling upon that.

• 1:44:42Speaker 05

  There's some kind of intelligence beyond what we know that has the capacity to help us. Let's call upon it. Let's bring it into our lives.

• 1:44:54Shawn Ryan?

  You, you actually said that when we were down there about the cells and that, that really resonated with me and it's, it's just, it's, I mean, I really honestly believe that it's, you know, I'd always heard this, this stuff unlocks your mind and, and I never like really, it didn't click until I did it and it literally unlocks, unlocks your mind.

• 1:45:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:45:21Shawn Ryan?

  And I, I do feel that you're able to tap into, I mean, I don't feel, I know you're able to tap into a higher level of consciousness, which, which is, maybe it's more intelligence.

• 1:45:40Shawn Ryan?

  It seems like it.

• 1:45:41Speaker 05

  Well, back to the, the, I, I mentioned this at the start, that there's a psychedelic component to where AA came from. So Bill Wilson, Bill W., the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, his, his conversion, as it were, after years of trying to overcome his own alcoholism, came from a belladonna experience. And belladonna is another psychoactive plant. So it was actually through a psychoactive plant that he got sober and then he created AA out of that. But then in his later years, he, there's a, a book called Distilled Spirits, which you can look

• 1:46:24Speaker 05

  on YouTube for the Distilled Spirits book trailer. It's a kind of a five-minute video that outlines the book, but it's the story of how Aldous Huxley, the famous writer who wrote Brave New World and a book called Island, which was actually his utopian vision, the last book that he wrote, which I highly recommend. We've all read his dystopian vision, but his utopian vision is much more compelling. And him as well as Bill W. were

• 1:46:57Speaker 05

  The story of how they all came together, but Bill W. in his later life, he really wanted LSD to become a part of the 12 steps, maybe step zero. Because he saw that people did have a hard time with that higher power concept, which is critical to sobriety in those 12 steps. So he saw that by, if we could include LSD as step zero, to have that spiritual awakening that so often comes from these substances, then that would make the rest of the steps all the easier. Because it is almost a, when people do find sobriety in the end, it is almost like a spiritual conversion process that happens for them.

• 1:47:42Speaker 05

  Something shifts and even in your life, like without intent, you had this spiritual experience with these substances at our center and all of a sudden alcohol is not as attractive anymore.

• 1:47:54Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:54Speaker 05

  Not attractive at all.

• 1:47:56Shawn Ryan?

  How many, how many people do you keep in touch with that you treat?

• 1:48:00Speaker 05

  Quite a bit. Like I set up signal groups for everybody to stay in touch before and after. And yeah, the messages will pop up in those. And some people, the doors open for everybody to stay in touch with me. And some people do more than others. But yeah, it's a treat to stay in touch with people. And even back in, when I was primarily doing detoxes, to see some of those people still thriving and flourishing from that. I, I feel as though we bring people in for ibogaine and it's like we bring them in and bring them, get, put them through one of the hardest weeks of their lives. And it's like you're just shaking them up like this and then you set them down, but they're on a slightly different angle.

• 1:48:42Speaker 05

  And I feel as though with, with, I feel as though we're successful. When people leave, they might feel as though they've made a 90 degree course change or 180 degree course change or 45 degree course change. But then when they get home, not everybody did ibogaine with them. So, you know, life happens and, and. Things drag you down again, but I feel as though we're super successful, even if we just get a five degree course change. Because a five degree course change played out over 10,000 miles, you're in a completely different state than you would have been if you didn't get that small course change. And I think that's what we're really effective at is, and I think that's all it takes is just giving people that subtle course change, that five degree course change.

• 1:49:26Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, that's a good, I like that, I like the way you describe that. When people, so I know the addiction versus kind of the TBI, anxiety, PTSD, you know, whatever you want to call it, it's two separate treatments, correct?

• 1:49:50Speaker 05

  It's two different protocols, but there's definitely, there's, there's things that are related, like, for example, when I worked in Vancouver, I treated a special forces veteran who was hooked on heroin.

• 1:50:06Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:07Speaker 05

  So, so there's that. And the protocol is generally longer for a detox, so when, when we bring you guys in, it's a five day program. We bring people in on a Monday, send them home on a Friday. With a detox, it's generally 10 days at least, so we'll bring them in for a few days, stabilize them. If they've been using street drugs for some time, we'll, we'll switch them to morphine so that they're on a, a safe, clean version of an opiate for a few days. We'll hydrate them, like you saw, we do IVs before and after and get people ready. So, two or three days after they arrive for a detox, we'll start the actual detox with ibogaine.

• 1:50:50Speaker 05

  And then they might require a couple booster doses out the other end in case some withdrawals come back in a minor form, we'll give them. A boost that way. But it's interesting when you talk about traumatic brain injury. I mentioned Vancouver's downtown east side, which was kind of the source of the inspiration for me doing this work. And there is a longitudinal study. There's a group of, I think, around 400 residents of the downtown east side that a group has been studying for a good number of years. And in one of the papers that was published a couple of years ago, Dr. Will Panenka published this with some other authors.

• 1:51:31Speaker 05

  But he found that of the people that he studied down there, they did a study of traumatic brain injury. And every single person to the person that he studied has a traumatic brain injury. So it just makes you wonder, growing up in a traumatic life with, in abject poverty, with things happening to you that causes a traumatic brain injury. It's a chicken and the egg thing, you know, what, what came first, the traumatic brain injury? Or the drug addiction, you know, is, are, are they just self medicating traumatic? Brain injuries using those substances?

• 1:52:13Speaker 05

  So it, it's just interesting to me that now I'm working specifically with veterans, mostly specifically for traumatic brain injury. But back when I was working primarily with addiction, and I still do a lot of that down here. We have another house that will do, that we, we treat addiction out of.

• 1:52:34Speaker 05

  But, you know, how many of those people that I treated for addiction over the years? Had traumatic brain injury and that's what led them into addiction. So interesting questions.

• 1:52:44Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. How much of a role does big pharma play? And keeping the stuff illegal, do you think?

• 1:52:53Speaker 05

  Um, I don't know that there is a specific agenda to keep these things illegal. I think, I think just the momentum of a system that basically outlawed everything in the early nineteen seventies does just fine at keeping everything illegal. Um, everything being illegal does prevent a lot of research or puts up a lot more hoops in front of research. It's only, I think in the early two thousands, maybe late nineties, that psychedelic research started legally in the States again.

• 1:53:28Speaker 05

  Um.

• 1:53:30Speaker 05

  I, I wonder if Big Pharma, I think, I think there's probably people around that have sat around boardrooms at, at Big Pharma meetings, hearing about the benefits of psychedelics. But then when they look at it from their perspective, I just don't think it seems feasible for them to develop a lot of these substances as pharmaceutical drugs. And I think that's for a number of reasons. You can't patent a lot of these molecules. They've been around for a long time, if not forever in nature. But even once they were discovered in nature, a lot of those patents have long since expired.

• 1:54:12Speaker 05

  So I don't think, there's just not Big Pharma money to be made on these substances. Like, there's no, there's no, you know, there's no Pfizer vaccine money to be made on these substances. So I think that prevents these companies that are normally the entities that develop drugs. It's just preventing them from developing them as drugs because it's, it's not, you know, it's not going to look fiduciarily responsible for them to, to go down these rabbit holes. So I don't know that it's actually a nefarious trying to keep these things from being developed more than it is.

• 1:54:58Speaker 05

  If they don't develop them, nobody else can afford to develop them and they're just not interested in developing them to a large degree. So the the groups that are developing psychedelics as medicines, MAPS, as I mentioned, Rick Doblin runs MAPS as a nonprofit. So he should be successful in developing this. He'll only be the second nonprofit in history to develop a drug through the entire drug development process. Otherwise, it's these billion dollar companies that develop these substances only if they think they can make billions of dollars. So Rick has raised almost a hundred million dollars

• 1:55:39Speaker 05

  in order to take this through the drug development process and it's taken him since 1983.

• 1:55:44Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:55:45Speaker 05

  So that's not a very walkable path for most people. There's a couple of other organizations that are developing psilocybin. One happens to have a benevolent billionaire behind it that really wants to see these developed no matter what. One is a publicly traded company that has raised a whole bunch of money to make this happen, but then they're trying to develop intellectual property around these, you know, because they are dumping so much money into them. Where's the IP so that I can kind of keep my piece of the pie here? So there there's been a lot of weird patent land grabs to to try and secure IP

• 1:56:26Speaker 05

  on weird things that like even touching somebody somebody's arm during a therapeutic session, like they've tried to grab a patent on something like that. So there's just a weird, a lot of weird things that are happening as these substances try and get developed into pharmaceuticals. Another angle to consider is the opiate racket, which I call IT. So, you know, Purdue Pharma really created our opioid crisis that North America is facing right now. They launched OxyContin. They said it was a non-addictive painkiller, even though it's chemically nearly

• 1:57:10Speaker 05

  identical to heroin. They just put a special coating on it and and sold it as a non-addictive opiate, which it definitely wasn't. That created the opioid crisis that we're in right now. So.

• 1:57:24Speaker 05

  There, eh, once you're physically addicted to opiates, it's not a moral failing, it is a physical addiction. Like, once your, eh, your body has endorphins, which are basically the natural painkillers within your body. And when you take an opiate, which is an external endorphin, basically, when you take that external opiate, eventually your own painkilling system shuts down. So there's a certain pain that just comes from living, like, your body is producing painkillers right now that prevent you from feeling the pressure of gravity upon you, even. So when you take away that external opiate and your

• 1:58:04Speaker 05

  body no longer creates that internal opiate, you go into serious pain, and that's what withdrawal pains are. It's like, that opiate is no longer in there. So if you know that all you need to do in order to get rid of that pain is to take another opiate, you take another opiate. So that's what creates the cycle of addiction and dependence with opiates. So if you just ask, you say, "Well, why don't you just quit?" It's not quite so simple. It's not a matter of just quitting. It's a matter of going through weeks and months of abject pain if you're gonna quit a substance like that. So what has been created as a solution are opiate replacement drugs. So the popular ones are methadone

• 1:58:50Speaker 05

  and suboxone. So those don't get you off opiates. What they do is they replace the illegal street opiates with a legal opiate that you can go to the pharmacy and get. Some people need to go every day in order to take that. So there's a lot of money being made in giving people an opiate every day. There's a, a massive market, and there's a lot of people involved in that market, a lot of companies involved in that market. I know in Canada, um, for, if, if somebody who is opiate dependent goes into a pharmacy and receives their methadone every single day, that pharmacy makes six thousand dollars

• 1:59:34Speaker 05

  a year off that person. So they don't necessarily want that person to get, get free of opiates. So.

• 1:59:43Speaker 05

  Um, not to mention the doctors that prescribe those. And when you're on those, you you might need to go to the doctor every couple of weeks, at least at first, to make sure the program's working for you, maybe at least once a month. So there's a lot of money being made in order in keeping people on those. So if I were one of those companies making all those that money and and somebody came along and said, but wait, we could give these people ibogaine and they could be off opiates in a couple of days. It it it might cost a few thousand dollars to do that, but it's not this ongoing perpetual profit.

• 2:00:19Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:19Speaker 05

  It's not, you know, it's not an opiate racket. So it's, um, people, people.

• 2:00:29Speaker 05

  It's it's not a conspiracy theory to think that there's a bunch of people sitting in boardrooms saying, how can we be more profitable?

• 2:00:37Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:38Speaker 05

  Like, that's what people, people seem to forget that. And they think that every, that, um, I don't know, certain people think, oh, no, they're they're well intended. They would never do anything that would hurt people. Well, they've got, those organizations have a fiduciary duty to keep those companies profitable as long as it is within the realms of the law. And then these companies get so profitable that if they don't like the law the way it is, they can lobby the government to change the law into one that better suits them. So, so, yeah, I'm not sure that Big Pharma is, you know, is evilly plotting

• 2:01:17Speaker 05

  against psychedelics. I think there are just market forces that are against the development of psychedelics.

• 2:01:25Shawn Ryan?

  How much is, how much has this industry grown, psychedelic world, grown in the past 10 years?

• 2:01:33Speaker 05

  It's really from, as me, somebody who's been professionally involved for ten years and kind of been watching as things grow, I think we're way farther ahead now than I would have thought we would have been by now. In, in Canada, there was the big kind of cannabis gold rush. A lot of cannabis companies went, were allowed to trade on the, the public markets in Canada. A lot of those companies were crap and nothing happened, but there was a lot of speculation. So a lot of, a lot of money was made playing the, the stock market with those. So a lot of psychedelic companies have came on the market, especially kind of as of two

• 2:02:16Speaker 05

  years ago, you saw a whole bunch of publicly traded companies pop up with psychedelics on their mind. I don't think, uh, I wrote a, a piece that's, I think the Psychedelic Time, the Psychedelic Times published on their website called, "Why Psychedelics Are Not the Next Cannabis." Because I think a lot of people rushed in and said, "Oh, this is the next cannabis. We can all get rich off this like we did off cannabis." And it's just not the same thing. Cannabis is something that, um, you know, a lot of people do use every day. It is something that people use chronically, so there's that market. Psychedelics, if you're doing it right, nobody's using them every day.

• 2:02:57Speaker 05

  There is something called microdosing, and microdosing, you, you might take much more frequently, but that's a small amount of a very inexpensive substance generally that people are microdosing. So, you know, I, so a lot of companies have popped up to, to, with the aim of doing something within the psychedelic world. And I know already a handful of those companies have folded because it's not quite as easy a business model as let's just provide this addictive substance to people that want it. People might say cannabis isn't addictive, that's not my experience. I've, I've had a tenuous relationship with cannabis my whole life.

• 2:03:42Speaker 05

  But uh, but yeah, but then there are some really cool companies. And I know some people involved in some of those cool companies. I helped cofound the Canadian Psychedelic Association. I was on the board of directors for MAPS in Canada. I was chair of the board there for a few years. And through, through that, I, I actually helped kick off the Psychedelic Business Association. So one of the first trade associations dedicated to psychedelic business. And there's some really good people in there. I just think the business model is, we're still in early days as far as regulation is concerned. And there's going to be, need to be a lot of regulatory changes that, that happen before. I think a lot of these businesses are viable.

• 2:04:27Speaker 05

  And a lot of these businesses are trying to take a top down approach to, to, you know, whatever their business is going to be where, I, I don't know. I just feel really blessed for where I'm at, which has really been from a bottom up approach. I had a unique window of opportunity where I was able to legally do this in my home country. I'm now working in another country where it's legal to work with it. And I'm able to serve a whole bunch of people. And I think we will, we will expand, but I'm, I'm happy that we're not expanding. I'm happy we're doing this kind of grassroots, bottom, bottom up growth. Then rather than just trying to, all right, I want to get in the psychedelic business.

• 2:05:12Speaker 05

  What are we going to do? I didn't have to do that.

• 2:05:15Shawn Ryan?

  You, you brought up microdosing. I'm interested in the microdosing topic. Um, what, can you kind of go into that? Why people are microdosing?

• 2:05:25Speaker 05

  So microdosing is a, is a sub perceptual amount of psychedelic that you would take on a relatively frequent basis, or you know, even just one day you can microdose. But let's say it's generally about one tenth of a dose. So if, if a gram of mushrooms is a dose, then you might take a hundred milligrams of mushrooms to microdose. Or if a hit of acid, which is generally about a hundred micrograms of LSD, then you might just take 10 micrograms of LSD, LS, or pardon me, ibogaine to microdose it.

• 2:06:02Speaker 05

  A full flood dose might be a gram of ibogaine. You would just take kind of ten to twenty milligrams of ibogaine to microdose. So a really low amount. You don't necessarily notice that you've taken it. If you do notice, it's just like a book was written. You can look up called A Really Good Day, which is one woman's journey using microdosing. And that's just what she described it. When you microdose, you just seem to have a really good day. You're not even sure why. Things just start to flow. It does seem to have an antidepressant effect. For some people, it's a bit of an anti-anxiety, although some some studies are showing that microdosing in some people can cause a little bit of anxiety.

• 2:06:47Speaker 05

  Microdosing with ibogaine, as I mentioned earlier, seems to be very good at treating Parkinson's disease. I've seen that firsthand from numerous people now. That's, I think, a really rich avenue of study. Yeah. I look forward to that getting more out there because there's not a lot of good treatments for Parkinson's available. And it, the way I would do it ideally is you, you start with a big dose. You start with what you did. You start with a flood dose of ibogaine or a therapeutic session with psilocybin. And I think with the larger dose, it kind of clears out the cobwebs. And then you live a couple of months and then you might just say, you know what?

• 2:07:32Speaker 05

  I need a little touch up. And then that's where microdosing can come in. There's different protocols, like with mushrooms, you could take three days on, two days off, or five days on, two days off. You want to give your body a little bit of a break from psilocybin, or it might not be as effective. Like if you take two big mushroom journeys, two days in a row, you won't really feel the mushrooms on the second day because your receptors are already flooded and. With microdosing psilocybin, there's an argument to be made that you want to put some days break in there. Ibogaine's really hard to come by, and there are sustainability issues with ibogaine. So you just really, if you do get your hands on some iboga, you need to know that it comes from an ethical source.

• 2:08:18Shawn Ryan?

  So you don't really feel, like you don't, you don't have any visual, it's not near as strong, you might not even realize anything.

• 2:08:27Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think if you're doing it right, you don't even notice that you've taken anything, except by the end of the day, you look back and you're like, wow, that was a really good day. And then be careful, because you're dealing with sacred plant medicines that have a mind of their own sometimes. I've, I gave my father a microdose of iboga once, and he went on a full-on journey. It was very unexpected. And yeah, that's a heck of a story. Sadly, I don't think he'll ever try a psychedelic again, because that microdose didn't go as planned. But I've had that with other people, too. Like, sometimes a microdose

• 2:09:09Speaker 05

  of mushrooms lays you out. And I think you really need to be cautious of that. If this medicine feels it's time for you to learn a lesson, you might, you know, you might need to spend a few hours laying down. So I think especially when you're first starting with microdosing, make sure you don't have too many plans that day, just to, to see if it resonates all right with you.

• 2:09:34Shawn Ryan?

  How long do people microdose for? Is it like a specific period, or is it like an ongoing, I'm doing this, starting today until I die?

• 2:09:43Speaker 05

  My advice is just to do it organically, is the, these substances seem to have an innate intelligence within themselves. So the medicine might tell you, you've had enough, you know, you don't need to microdose for a little while. And then there's, there's probably not much danger in doing it quite frequently. The Parkinson's patients I've worked with, they will microdose ibogaine every single day, and they don't notice at all that they've taken a psychedelic substance. What they notice is that they've got smoother movement, and their Parkinson's is better, and they can smile more.

• 2:10:25Speaker 05

  Um.

• 2:10:26Shawn Ryan?

  What are some other?

• 2:10:26Speaker 05

  With LSD and with mushrooms, there is a, it triggers a receptor that there is a theory that microdosing LSD and perhaps mushrooms too frequently could be hard on the heart. So people should investigate that, but I think as long as you're, you're, you're just doing it every now and then. And I think that's how it should be is every now and then. I'll, uh, an amazing story from microdosing was, um,

• 2:11:03Speaker 05

  and again, just because of the age of the person, you know, tread with caution on taking this as advice, but my partner has a friend who was, her family was very much suffering because their 12 year old daughter had massive amounts of depression, couldn't function, couldn't go to school, was really bringing down the whole family. And my, my love Brianna, she said to her friend, you know, you might want to try a microdosing mushrooms. And she's like, we will try anything right now. So, um, this person got a hold on of some mushrooms

• 2:11:45Speaker 05

  and they were ground up and put into capsules for microdoses. So a hundred milligram per cap. And she started putting like half of that cap into the daughter's smoothie in the morning and she said, she was well aware that she was taking some kind of a medicine and it dramatically changed her. She, she, within months, she was going to school all the time, no problem. Um, this woman credits Brianna for saving her family. And the amazing thing is that girl no longer requires the medicine. She, for a while there. She would be like, yeah, mom, I need my medicine today.

• 2:12:29Speaker 05

  Or, yeah, I feel like I might need my medicine today. Or even the other kids were like, she needs her medicine today. But after a few months of this, she is completely healed, as it were, and doesn't, hasn't required microdoses for, I think it's probably more than a year at this point.

• 2:12:47Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 2:12:47Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:12:48Shawn Ryan?

  That's amazing.

• 2:12:49Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:12:49Shawn Ryan?

  So is it, is it actually regenerating, like, brain cells?

• 2:12:55Speaker 05

  More studies are needed, but a really cool study I can reference is, uh, there was a study with rats and the, the rats heard a buzzer and the floor that they were standing on was electrocuted. Hear the buzzer, electric shock. Hear the buzzer, electric shock. Pretty soon, all they needed to do was hear the buzzer and they would jump like they're about to get an electric shock. So they gave, there were two groups of rats. They gave one group a large, the equivalent of a large dose of psilocybin. And they gave the other group the equivalent of a microdose of psilocybin. The group that was given the large dose of psilocybin,

• 2:13:38Speaker 05

  the end of the experiment was, how many times will it take them to hear the buzzer with no electrocution so that they don't jump when they hear the buzzer anymore? How long does it take to condition that fear response out of them again? So with the large dose of psilocybin, it took 10 times. After 10 times, the rats didn't jump anymore. With the microdose, it only took two times.

• 2:14:05Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding.

• 2:14:06Speaker 05

  So Paul Stamets was the one, he's a, there's a movie on Netflix called Fantastic Fungi. Paul is an acquaintance of mine. I'm, I'm pretty good friends with his partner, Pam Crisco, who's a physician that started the Canadian Psychedelic Association with me. But, um, I I heard Paul describe that study and then the theory is that maybe when you take the larger flood dose of the substance, you're dealing with these neurons that are super delicate. So it might clean everything out. It might be overall beneficial, but in order to rebuild these very sensitive, small neurons, maybe that's what the microdose is there for. Without completely bombarding the system with psilocybin, the microdose

• 2:14:51Speaker 05

  just allows those really small cells to regrow in the gentle way that they need. So I think, yeah, I think microdosing psilocybin, again, it's it's sad that these these substances are 50 years behind on the research because all research was outlawed in the, you know.

• 2:15:16Shawn Ryan?

  From the Nixon era.

• 2:15:17Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:15:18Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Yeah, this stuff is just it fast. It's fascinating to me.

• 2:15:23Speaker 05

  So Paul Stamets, he he has something called the Stamets Stack that he recommends, which is to take psilocybin mushrooms, microdose those, along with lion's mane mushrooms, which are also known to be very good at neuro regeneration. Lion's mane are awesome to take. I love taking that. And then to add a little niacin in there because niacin gives you that niacin flush, which means kind of that the ends of your nerves are getting activated. So his theory is that the niacin kind of activates those areas, then the mushrooms go in to those activated areas and help helps them regrowth.

• 2:16:05Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. Well, let's take a quick break. And when we come back, let's talk about, you know, what you're doing, preparation to go through the journey to get the treatment, what it what what the experience is like during the treatment and what they can expect afterwards, and and where to find you.

• 2:16:27Speaker 05

  Right on.

• 2:16:28Shawn Ryan?

  All right, man.

• 2:16:30Shawn Ryan?

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• 2:19:33Shawn Ryan?

  All right, Trevor, we're back. Let's talk about what the experience is like if I'm gonna go through your treatment, but from your standpoint. So I would like to kind of start with intentions, because that was the one thing that just kept getting hammered into me before I got there, while I was there, and even the follow-up stuff after I left, was all, you know, remember your intent, remember your intentions. And come to find out, I do think that was one of the most important, probably the most important thing for me to prepare for, was intentions.

• 2:20:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think that's, it is so important. Intentions and expectations. And we work with vets, of course. And vets, when they sponsor Special Forces veterans to come down, they insist upon coaching before and after as well. So there's a great coach and then team of coaches behind her that are just exceptional at getting everybody ready. So they would have worked with you on trying to figure out what your intention is. And I think intention...

• 2:20:52Speaker 05

  Intention is almost the direction that you're gonna try and point the entire experience. Like, what are you really trying to overcome?

• 2:21:01Speaker 05

  You know, you could just go into it and say, you know, let whatever happens, happens. And that works sometimes for some people. But if you're going in, you might as well have some kind of a compass point, some kind of a north star that you wanna keep coming back to, to frame your experience. So if you wanna, maybe your intention is to overcome anger. If you're in the middle of a part of the journey where everything just seems chaotic, you can kind of steer back to, well, what does this have to do with anger? You know, or if it's to, to have more love for your family or more presence for your family. As just through the middle, you can kind of bring it back to that. Like, what am I here for? I know what I'm here for.

• 2:21:44Speaker 05

  I've spent plenty of time focusing on what I'm here for prior to this, with the coaches, with the team, on the ground, with us. So, yeah, intention is just, is just that. What do you intend to accomplish through the journey? Which is super important. Otherwise, you might not get what you're after.

• 2:22:06Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think?

• 2:22:11Shawn Ryan?

  Have you had anybody come down? Are there wrong intentions? Are there intentions that?

• 2:22:18Speaker 05

  Um, I think there's, I think the medicine can often be very literal. So you wanna be careful in your intention setting. And one experience that I described, and I might have described it to you while you were there, is I had one guy who came in, really relaxed, former team's guy, but, you know, pretty chilled guy. And he came in and didn't have a lot of anxiety, was looking forward to the journey. But then, once the journey kicked in, he raised his hand. I went over to him, he's like, man, I'm super paranoid. I'm super, super paranoid right now. I'm like, okay, well, that can happen. Just recognize you're in a safe place. We're taking good care of you here.

• 2:23:00Speaker 05

  And I'll check back in about fifteen minutes. Check back and he's like, oh, I'm so anxious. My anxiety is through the roof. And I said, well, let me check with the doctor. If you'd like, we can give you an anti-anxiety if it's, if it's over the top. But let me check with her and I'll get back to you. So I came back fifteen minutes or so later and said, the doctor is willing to give you an anti-anxiety if you'd like. And he's like, yeah, maybe. Then he goes, you know, my main intent was to try and understand my wife's anxiety better.

• 2:23:34Speaker 05

  So I laughed about that loud in the room and said, well, man, do you maybe want to tell the medicine that you've got the message? So you can move on from this. So that's just a perfect example of, uh, you know, intent that could have perhaps been, how can I have more compassion for my wife's anxiety? Or how can I better support my wife? Instead, he got a lesson in anxiety, which I think served him in the end. And I'm glad we got that through him. Cause I said, you know, how about you tell the medicine, you've gotten the message. And when I checked on him fifteen minutes later, he was fine. He, and laughing about it already. But, uh, the, the medicine kind of force fed him some, some anxiety.

• 2:24:18Speaker 05

  Cause that's what he wanted to better understand. And I've seen that with fear as well. People that say they want to better understand their fear, rather than how do I overcome my fear? I had one guy who, um, was stuck in a fear-based situation the whole time and, and, you know, thought we were, he thought he was having a heart attack, basically. Cause the, the heart monitor beeps a couple of times. I now warn, warn everybody that no matter what we do, sometimes the heart monitor beeps, it doesn't mean you're dying. So he, uh, yeah, he was just in a completely enmeshed in believing that, you know, it was the end for him. So he got, he got a hard, hard lesson in fear.

• 2:25:03Speaker 05

  And eventually he popped out and he, he gleaned some really good lessons from that. But I think, uh, yeah, being mindful in how you set your intent, you can make things a lot easier or harder on yourself, depending.

• 2:25:17Shawn Ryan?

  Real quick, uh, I just want to interject. This question just came to me, um, you know, I've, we obviously have a lot of civilians watching as well, and you do treat civilians. It's not only special operations veterans. And a lot of civilians have asked me, they, they don't want to go because they don't feel that their, whatever they've experienced, their traumatic event doesn't, it's not, it's, it doesn't measure up to, to what mine was, or what some of the other guys was. And, and I tell them all, look, that's all relative. And what, what, what do you say about that?

• 2:25:59Speaker 05

  Um, I have a, a, a good friend, uh, and a, a fairly famous doctor. He's, uh, Dr. Gabor Maté. I highly suggest your audience check him out. He wrote a book called In the Realm of the Hungry Ghosts, which talks about his 12 years working on Vancouver's downtown east side as a physician down there. And he essentially discovered that every person to the person that he was working with down there had an incredibly traumatic childhood and, and their addiction largely grew out of them trying to self-medicate that pain from that traumatic childhood that they didn't properly know how to process.

• 2:26:43Speaker 05

  But that Dr. Mate's next book is called The Myth of Normal. And what this book touches upon, it should be released in September, I believe, but having spoken to Gabor, what it touches upon is that the whole world is sick. Like, none of us is growing up in a world that is not traumatic. Every aspect of life on Earth right now carries some degree of trauma with it. I won't say every aspect, of course, not every aspect, but life in general. People are growing up in a traumatic world. So the normal is a myth, because I think normal would mean we all grow up in happy,

• 2:27:27Speaker 05

  loving families with a happy, loving community, happy, loving nation, if we have nation states in a normal, you know. So I think, to answer your question more directly, these substances are very good at getting people from minus ten to zero, but they're also really good at getting people from zero to plus ten. So I, I often say to people that IbaGan is so powerful, it can get somebody off of heroin almost overnight, what can it do for you?

• 2:28:02Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, that's a good point.

• 2:28:04Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:28:06Shawn Ryan?

  So you, it doesn't matter, you don't have to have.

• 2:28:10Speaker 05

  I don't think so. If you feel the call, answer that call. If you don't feel the call, you don't have to force yourself. But if you're feeling a call to, to experience some of the, the enlightening aspects of these substances, I, I think you should track that down. If, if you feel that call towards IbaGan specifically, I'd say you're, you're hooked in what I call the Iboga vortex. Once, once you hear about Iboga and it interests you, you're eventually gonna do it.

• 2:28:40Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:41Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:28:42Shawn Ryan?

  That's what happened to me.

• 2:28:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:28:44Shawn Ryan?

  And I'm glad I did it. But managing expectations for me was another thing that I was really trying to get a grasp on. And, and so can you talk about managing expectations before you get there and while you're there?

• 2:29:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, so.

• 2:29:04Speaker 05

  I do what I can to prepare people for the iboga journey in a myriad of different ways. There's different advice that I can give that'll help people navigate the experience. Like iboga is like stepping on a roller coaster. When you get on that roller coaster, when it comes on, when you're going up the hill, it's, it can be freaky. Then you have lots of ups, you have lots of downs, you have some loop-de-loops. You have some tunnels of terror, you might have some water features with some purging. But the only rule of roller coasters is don't try and get off in the middle of the roller coaster. And if I ever see anybody struggling through an experience like the ones we've been talking about today,

• 2:29:49Speaker 05

  it's when they're trying to get off the roller coaster. It's like, no, I don't want this, but you know, you've already taken the red pill. You're kinda, you're in for the ride. The beautiful thing about roller coasters is they do finish. So even if you're terrified the whole time, eventually it's gonna end. But some people love roller coasters, some people hate roller coasters. Either way, the roller coaster does finish. And you can do things to prepare so that it is more enjoyable for you. So I do all I can to help people prepare. And I also say, I'll give you a bunch of tools to hopefully help you navigate through this experience. But at the end of the day, get rid of your expectations.

• 2:30:33Speaker 05

  Cause the expectations are gonna get in the way. If you think ibogaine is gonna be one way, you're gonna be so sorely disappointed. Um, especially if you've never done it before. Even for me, who's, who's done it multiple times now, you think it's gonna be the way it was last time? It's not at all. It's still got a certain signature that's the same, but it's not at all the same. So it's, it's great to set an intent, which is kind of like your north star, which is I'm gonna do all I can to, to discover this about myself while I'm on the roller coaster, while I enjoy the process. But other than that, you kinda just, you need to let go of any expectations. Cause like I say, some people get visions, some people don't. Somebody goes in expecting wild visions, they might not get them.

• 2:31:17Speaker 05

  And then they might be disappointed. And there was no need for that disappointment if they just let go of the expectation in the first place.

• 2:31:25Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting. Let's talk about.

• 2:31:30Shawn Ryan?

  We're down there now. We're at the facility, or the house, wherever you go.

• 2:31:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, so we have a big, beautiful house that we operate out of. We can bring in up to five people at a time at this current house. Like I say, we do have another house that we'll do detoxes out of, but currently we're bringing people in primarily for this psycho spiritual protocol. We'll bring everybody in together on a Monday. Monday is, uh, we'll do some medical tests upon arrival. We'll do, we'll have some blood drawn. Even prior to arrival, we're having people send us EKGs. So we want to take a look at an EKG prior to arrival. Um, there's some other things we do to help prepare, like making sure people go through coaching sessions. Upon arrival, some more medical tests. We do another EKG upon arrival.

• 2:32:21Shawn Ryan?

  Are you guys still doing the sweat lodge too on the first day?

• 2:32:24Speaker 05

  So Monday they arrive, we'll do medical tests, we'll do blood work, we'll do an EKG. We've included, uh, a sweat lodge. We go to an indigenous elder and do a sweat lodge, which is an incredible way of kicking off the week. It's a great way for team building. It's also a great way to take the first step in kind of overcoming something that seems very intense that you can't get through. Did you like the sweat lodge?

• 2:32:54Shawn Ryan?

  I liked it until the very end.

• 2:32:58Shawn Ryan?

  No, I did like it. I thought it was, I thought it was really good. I'd never done one before. I've always heard about it and first, like I said, first I was like, all right, this is, this is kind of weird. And then, and then that last portion, I was like, oh man, this is definitely doing something and I just want to get the hell out of this thing.

• 2:33:21Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 2:33:21Shawn Ryan?

  But, um, yeah.

• 2:33:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's a great, it's a great way to kick off the week. So amazing house that we work out of, amazing food. We have, uh, incredible chefs who cook for people all week long. Monday, we also do a couple of circles to heart to again, start helping people prepare for the iboga. We run them through a few exercises. Tuesday, some more good food. We'll do some breath work. We've been bringing in a breath work practitioner, which is another nice thing to do prior to going into the IbaGain journey. We bring in a massage therapist from a we'll we'll serve lunch around 1pm and then from then on they'll fast because it's best to go into IbaGain on an empty

• 2:34:08Speaker 05

  stomach and we'll start the IbaGain process on Tuesday night. We'll start with a fire circle and do a little bit of a ceremony again to really get the intent and the vehicle secure. And then we'll administer the first dose of IbaGain and then within about an hour, we'll have everybody move up into the treatment room. We hook them up to heart monitors. As I've said, we have a doctor and paramedics on duty all night, plus me or another IbaGain provider specifically. And then the IbaGain journey goes through the night into the next morning. We'll do some IVs first thing in the next morning.

• 2:34:52Speaker 05

  And then from that point, you're kind of able to to go to your room or into the rest of the house as you would like. You probably won't sleep much that next day. That next day is often returned referred to as the gray day where you you're just super tired. You've been through a lot. You don't feel the benefits yet. You're kind of like, why the hell did I just put myself through that? Yeah. Yeah, I seem to remember you looking at me in a similar fashion on that day. And yeah, but then eventually start feeling a bit better and then come kind of dinner time. On that night, you might be ready for a meal. And then you get some sleep.

• 2:35:34Speaker 05

  And then it's once you get that first night good sleep after Iba game that you wake up the next day and you're like, actually, I feel pretty good. So that next day, we'll do some yoga and meditation. We bring in a great yoga practitioner. And then we work with five MEODMT on that afternoon. So that's, I set aside about an hour per person. And, uh, yeah, that, that might not take that long. Maybe they need half an hour, forty five minutes per person. But then, uh, Thursday night's Taco Thursday.

• 2:36:14Speaker 05

  And we'll, uh, we'll let you, let you go again on Friday morning.

• 2:36:23Shawn Ryan?

  You guys just run a top notch, everything from the food, the medical staff, the, the actual house that you're staying in. You take civilians, where do they find you? How do they get in touch?

• 2:36:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, our website is NV, which stands for Neurolve, Neurogenesis, N E U R O G E N E S I S dot com. So NVneurogenesis.com. And, um, yeah, I've got to say that it's, it's a very basic website. We haven't really needed to market it all.

• 2:36:57Shawn Ryan?

  Cool. And it'll just, it'll be linked below. Like I said, man, I'm just really happy that you came out here for the interview and, and it's just an honor to be able to give you the interview and, and I just wish you the best of luck.

• 2:37:10Speaker 05

  Beautiful. Thanks so much, Sean, for, uh, number one, for coming down and, and doing the work. Cause you're definitely making the world a better place by, by sharing your new self. One of my favorite quotes is, who you are speaks so loudly, I don't hear what you're saying. And I think that's, uh, that's what happens to people on, that when they go through these transformational journeys, they don't have to say anything. They become some kind of a walking billboard for the new thing that has grown out of all of that hardship and then the transformation that comes after it. So thank you for doing the work, brother, and thanks for having me.

• 2:37:50Shawn Ryan?

  One last thing.

• 2:37:53Shawn Ryan?

  If you had three people to recommend for this podcast, who would it be?

• 2:38:00Speaker 05

  Um, Rick Doblin,

• 2:38:05Speaker 05

  the founder of MAPS. He's an amazing man to talk to and a real pioneer in getting these substances more widely available. Um, Gabor Maté, who I mentioned, the doctor who focuses on trauma. And there's a movie that you can watch on YouTube that features him called The Wisdom of Trauma. An amazing guy. And

• 2:38:39Speaker 05

  the pressure, the pressure.

• 2:38:46Speaker 05

  I don't know, I'm, I'm thinking of another kind of psychedelic OG, a man by the name of Phil Wolfson. He is a, a doctor that operates out of the Bay Area, who is a pioneer in ketamine assisted psychotherapy. Another, uh, really interesting conversation with that guy.

• 2:39:07Shawn Ryan?

  Perfect.

• 2:39:08Speaker 05

  Great.

• 2:39:08Shawn Ryan?

  We'll reach out.

• 2:39:09Speaker 05

  Okay, cool.

• 2:39:10Shawn Ryan?

  All right. Cheers.

• 2:39:23Speaker 03

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