#109 Tom Spooner - Delta Force Operator

Tom Spooner is a former Special Operations Veteran with a twenty one year career. His incredible service included time in the 82nd Airborne as a Green Beret in the US Army’s 7th Special Forces Group and culminated with numerous deployments with the elite 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment Delta. In addition to his military success, Spooner is also highly regarded for his work off of the battlefield with Warriors Heart–a comprehensive treatment program for veterans, law enforcement and first responders. As co-founder and president of the organization, Spooner's mission is to "bring our warriors home." Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: https://lairdsuperfood.com - USE CODE "SRS" https://babbel.com/srs https://betterhelp.com/shawn https://shopify.com/shawn https;//helixsleep.com/srs https://blackbuffalo.com https://ShawnLikesGold.com | 855-936-GOLD #goldcopartner Tom Spooner Links: IG - https://www.instagram.com/1factfinder LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomas-spooner-b988072b Warriors Heart - https://www.warriorsheart.com Documentary - https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B08MWNGKKN/ref=atv_dp_share_cu_r Please leave us a review on Apple & Spotify Podcasts. Vigilance Elite/Shawn Ryan Links: Website | Patreon | TikTok | Instagram | Download Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Mr. President? My company tore me of the explosion on our rig.

• 0:33Speaker 02

  On October 2nd.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 0:38Speaker 02

  Tom Cruise is.

• 0:40Speaker 03

  Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us up.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  From the director of Birdman and the Revenant.

• 0:46Speaker 04

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You stall, you freeze to death, that's what.

• 0:50Speaker 02

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 0:53Speaker 04

  I'm not the first then.

• 0:54Speaker 02

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a minute without parent.

• 1:05Shawn Ryan?

  Tom Spooner, welcome to the show, man. Thanks for having me. Happy to be here, Sean. It's a real honor to have you sitting here. I truly being that, going through, going through your outline and the little bit of research that I did myself on you. It's just, wow. We've got a lot to talk about. You've had a... one hell of a career in the military. And I'm just, I'm really excited that you're here, man. And so, this has been a long time coming, so. Absolutely, and I'm equally excited to be here, too. Good, good. But I always start off with a, with an introduction. Okay. And so, here we go.

• 1:50Shawn Ryan?

  Retired Master Sergeant, 21 years in the US Army, 16 of those in Special Operations, Veteran of the Gulf War and the Global War on Terrorism, 5 years in the 82nd as an Infantryman, 6 years in 7th Special Forces Group as an 18th Charlie, 10 years in Delta as an Operator, Assaulter, and Sniper, 12 Combat Deployments, 1 to Afghanistan, 11 to Iraq, 40 total months of time in combat at a team level.

• 2:23Shawn Ryan?

  That is almost four years straight. Struggled with chemical dependency, TBI and unprocessed trauma, AKA PTSD. You've been sober for 31 years. Congratulations. I just hit two.

• 2:40Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 2:41Shawn Ryan?

  My wife's at, almost at 14, uh, married for 33 years.

• 2:48Shawn Ryan?

  Congratulations and a father of two young men. And finally, you are the co-founder and president of Warrior's Heart for the last eight years, where you've assisted 3,000 plus warriors with their healing journey. We've got a lot to talk about.

• 3:05Speaker 06

  Yes, we do.

• 3:06Shawn Ryan?

  But, um,

• 3:09Shawn Ryan?

  sober for 31 years.

• 3:11Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:11Shawn Ryan?

  I mean.

• 3:12Speaker 06

  That's crazy, isn't it?

• 3:13Shawn Ryan?

  You don't, uh, you know, and, and you know what I love is that conversation, you know, we had a breakfast. You, you've been, you were sober in service.

• 3:23Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:23Shawn Ryan?

  And, um, and especially where we come from.

• 3:30Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know how it is, how, how your experience was, but that was frowned upon.

• 3:34Speaker 06

  Right.

• 3:34Shawn Ryan?

  Where I came from and, uh, I can't imagine the amount of pressure that you felt to, to go tie one on with the boys. You know, and how like,

• 3:48Shawn Ryan?

  we're, we're gonna get into that, but I'm really curious. Like, how did you deal with that?

• 3:51Speaker 06

  Well, one, one of the easiest ways to deal with, well, first of all, I mean, we'll go through it, like you said in the story, but I, I had a really solid foundation, you know, before I got into spec ops and, you know, and, uh, and all of that. Uh, whenever it was a lot more difficult, more difficult, more accepted kind of deal. But I also just came back to the, like, I'm me, like, yeah, you know, here's one, right? Like, well, I don't trust anybody that I don't drink with.

• 4:19Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:19Speaker 06

  You know, and then I would say, well, I don't trust anybody that I had a fight with, so. We're gonna get over this, or we're gonna, what, you know, so that's the, we talked about this morning, it's like, I didn't get sober and become a hippie, you know what I mean? I got sober and became even a more badass warrior, you know, so that's the thing. We can either sit here and pray, or we can go outside and fight too. That's cool. I'm, I'm equally, uh, you know, would love to do either one.

• 4:50Speaker 06

  So that was what helped me balance it, you know, and just, uh, and the way I got sober and the men that I was surrounded with that were sober also, that were like three jumps in World War II medics, you know what I mean? Four tour Vietnam vets, you know, all of those guys, you know what I mean? With sobriety, so I, you know, I mean, I, I was, um, was trained appropriately, you know? Was it difficult? Yeah, difficult at times. There's some funny times and, you know.

• 5:20Shawn Ryan?

  What would the typical response be to, well, I don't trust anybody I haven't fought with?

• 5:25Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 5:25Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, that really, that would have thrown me back on my feet immediately.

• 5:31Speaker 06

  Yeah, cuz I meant it too. Cuz you know, I mean, I'm a little on edge cuz, cuz I get it. I mean, I was that guy at one time, you know what I mean? Before I got sober, but it usually just kinda settled things down because it put it into perspective. Like, not that I can whip all these people's asses, but I can guarantee you wouldn't wanna have to fight me again, you know? So I might not win, but.

• 5:56Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 5:56Speaker 06

  And I was absolutely willing, you know? It wasn't just something I was saying, you know? So they had to pause and be like, hmm, okay.

• 6:04Shawn Ryan?

  Fair enough.

• 6:05Speaker 06

  But a lot of people, that's why I always loved, I never led with it, you know what I mean? I let them know me, especially on active duty. It's like, hey, here's this guy's resume, here's, you know, see what he's like on the team. Like, okay, really, wow, we want this guy on the team, whatever. And then they usually at some point find out, oh, he doesn't drink, right? That's weird, you know, whatever. And then it comes into those kind of conversations, but.

• 6:31Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. Um, you know, so I have a, before we get too in the weeds with your story, there's

• 6:40Speaker 06

  Sure.

• 6:42Shawn Ryan?

  Have a, I have a Patreon account. There are top supporters. They're the reason I'm sitting here. They're the reason you're sitting here. They, I mean, they're, they're who helped me grow the show. And so one of the benefits that I give them is I tell them who's coming on the show early.

• 6:58Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 6:58Shawn Ryan?

  And I give them an opportunity to ask a question, ask the guest a question. And I, I thought this was a really good questions. This is from, Brian Watkins.

• 7:10Shawn Ryan?

  Given you have two sons, what's the best advice you would give them generally for life? But then more specifically, perhaps if going off to war, what would you say to help them prevent potential future post-traumatic stress?

• 7:27Speaker 06

  Yeah, break it down for me. Like the first part, give them to life, which a lot of it goes into the war piece also. But for life, uh, the number one thing is, is like, hey, be a decent human being.

• 7:44Speaker 06

  You know, just right off the bat, like do more good than you do bad. Be as kind as you can be, you know, I mean, just on that side of the house, like be respectful, you know, uh, and I was raised country, you know, yes, sir, no, ma'am, you know, I mean, just always just be respectful, you know, of, of yourself and of others.

• 8:08Speaker 06

  Be confident, uh, you know, is a really big thing.

• 8:14Speaker 06

  And know who you are and what you stand for. That, that's a really big deal, especially as young men or, you know, growing up. I mean, look how long it took me to figure out who I was and what I stood for, you know, but having that in mind and, uh, and having loyalty chain in mind, like, hey, who, who are my people on this planet? Like, what is my priority? You know, and that being families first, you know, and, uh, so that would be. Uh, well, and then the other side of that is like, uh, that you need to be dangerous. Uh, this world is, as we know, not just because of war and everything like it's tough, man.

• 8:56Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 8:56Speaker 06

  Like you're gonna deal with tragedy, you're gonna deal with loss, you're gonna deal with, uh, success, you know, everything, you know, and, uh, it's, you gotta be tough. Uh, not just physically, but mentally, emotionally, you know, and, uh, I have two sons, you know, so, so they're men, so be physically fit, you know, to me, be ready, protect.

• 9:20Speaker 06

  I think that answered part of that first question.

• 9:22Shawn Ryan?

  Definitely.

• 9:23Speaker 06

  And then, um, and then when you're going, uh, if they were to ever go to war, or anybody else that's going to war is like, hey, man, you, like, you gotta know who you are and what you stand for, you know, and, um, and then again, understand the loyalty chain, the loyalty chain is a little bit different, you know, uh, stateside, uh, it was my family, you know, was first, uh, but then deployed, you know, the family is, that's not in my picture anymore, uh, you know, it's buried down deep, you know, but what's my loyalty chain now is my brothers to the left and right of me, you know what I mean, and the Americans, uh, that I'm protecting, and then the host nation folks, you know, in that order. Uh, the innocent host nation folks, you know, so,

• 10:09Speaker 06

  yeah, that would be having all of that in alignment, and whenever it's time to fight,

• 10:17Speaker 06

  you fight.

• 10:18Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 10:19Speaker 06

  You know, and there are no rules, uh, and you be just as, uh, ruthless. Again, it comes back to what we talked about before, that decision-making process, you know, if someone meets the criteria, you know, I mean, of that violence act, then, then there's no rules, there's, you know, address the threat until it's no longer a threat, you know, and, uh.

• 10:45Shawn Ryan?

  What about, thank you for sharing that.

• 10:48Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 10:49Shawn Ryan?

  What about getting ahead of PTSD?

• 10:53Speaker 06

  So getting ahead of it, that's, so the getting ahead of it is, uh,

• 11:00Speaker 06

  So what everybody calls PTSD, for me, that makes the most sense is just unprocessed trauma. So, number one is to have tools, tools in the toolbox to address all those emotions. You know, because that's really what we're talking about, you know, with all those kind of traumatic events, post-trauma, is, you know, I mean, for me, it was a super huge thing to have a power greater than myself, you know, to have some sort of spirituality, you know, that I can tap into. Because I don't care who you are, in my personal experience, there will come a day, whenever

• 11:45Speaker 06

  the world, the events, whatever, completely overwhelms me, and I don't have my own power, you know what I mean, to get through it. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I have to be able to, logic says, if I don't have the power to deal with a situation, then I need to be able to get access, more power, from somewhere else. Whether it's religion, whether it's spirituality, whether, whatever, you know, I mean, your ideas, concepts, there's a bunch of them out there, but have something, you know, even if it's just a belief in your family, whatever, you know, whatever it is greater than me when I'm feeling sorry for myself. That's been a huge thing for me.

• 12:27Speaker 06

  And then also, don't wait. Like you said, preparing is one thing, like, have an emotional toolbox, you know what I'm saying? Deal with public speaking, you know, I mean, there's all these different things that you can do, and all these different personal development stuff, you know, online, they call it emotional intelligence, right? And all these different things, it's like, and what that is, is like, you're dealing with uncomfortable situations, you know, so it's just like any kind, always revert back to training, obviously, because the military, am I trained or untrained? You know, if I don't have any... Emotional training, then a hugely emotional event occurs, I'm gonna be overwhelmed by it.

• 13:10Speaker 06

  You know, but if I've got some training and I've got some tools, I can at least start chipping away at it, you know, and potentially handle it on my own, you know, with my own toolbox. So I think that's a, that's a huge thing. And then obviously, if I have something bigger than that, um, then I'm gonna need assistance with it. Uh, whether that's talking to a buddy, uh, whether it's talking to, again, the spiritual aspect, or a licensed professional, you know, and, um, like be just, you know, no one hesitates to go to the gym. If they wanna be in better physical shape, they go to the gym and they, you know, I mean, they do all those different things. Um, but we talk a lot about mind, body and spirit, you know what I mean?

• 13:53Speaker 06

  Cause, cause I have to be strong in each one of those. Uh, and the only way for me to be strong in those is to train in them.

• 14:00Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 14:01Speaker 06

  So pick out something that whatever you're into, heck, that could be yoga, you know what I mean? It addresses and is one of the treatment modalities for PTSD as far as accessing emotions through the body. You know, so, uh, and it's a good workout, you know, and all that other good stuff for you. But, um, I get to rambling sometimes, but.

• 14:20Shawn Ryan?

  I'd like to, I'd like to chime in on that if you don't mind.

• 14:22Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 14:23Shawn Ryan?

  You know, I mean, when it comes to getting ahead of it, you know, the, the GWOT generations that fought in that war, you and I and, and a lot of the people that have been on the show, you know,

• 14:41Shawn Ryan?

  especially at the beginning, you know, like when I, when I left in 2006, there were no resources. There were nobody, nobody was talking about this. Nowadays, you have gentlemen.

• 14:54Shawn Ryan?

  And women, you know, who have spent twenty plus years in a wartime environment. You yourself, a thousand, a thousand direct action rates, forty months plus in combat. And, and there are all kinds of people with, with, with more war experience than we've ever seen in the history of the country. Yeah. And lots and lots of respected warriors are talking about what it took them to get, you know, what methods they've used to get better. And, and, you know, dive into this show, dive into other podcasts, you know, and listen to those methods.

• 15:33Shawn Ryan?

  And, and, and I would say the one commonality, not, not the one, but a major commonality is addiction. Yeah. It's alcohol, it's pills, it's, it's narcotics. Yeah. It's all of that. And

• 15:49Shawn Ryan?

  most of the time, when, when, when I'm talking to somebody, including myself, I've had my own suicide attempt. Mm-hmm. You know, drugs and alcohol, or one or the other, seems to be involved. Oh, yeah. And we both come from a team environment where that runs rampant, you know? And, and sometimes the team pushes pills on you, sometimes your friends push pills on you, sometimes you just get whatever happened, you know, the booze, like, get ahead of that shit. If you get ahead of that, then you're ten times ahead of the power curve of what everybody else is gonna be. Absolutely, man. And, um, and there's so many methods.

• 16:30Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, spirituality, religion, um, therapy, psychedelics, I mean, um, Warrior's Heart, what Tom's doing, uh, All Secure, I mean, get your, get your family right, get your wife right, get, get your relationships right and, and, and get rooted in them before you get out because. The boys aren't gonna support you, man. They have a job to do.

• 16:53Speaker 06

  Exactly.

• 16:53Shawn Ryan?

  You know, and they're gonna continue on that train. They're not there to, to baby your ass.

• 16:59Speaker 06

  No.

• 16:59Shawn Ryan?

  And they don't fucking get it either.

• 17:01Speaker 06

  No, cuz they're still in.

• 17:02Shawn Ryan?

  Until they're out.

• 17:03Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 17:03Shawn Ryan?

  And so, you need to set up your new team, you know, before you leave.

• 17:08Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 17:08Shawn Ryan?

  And, um, and, and get them ready to receive what's coming.

• 17:12Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 17:13Shawn Ryan?

  But, um, I just wanted to, to chime in on that. But let's get into your story. So before we do, everybody gets a gift.

• 17:20Speaker 06

  Uh oh.

• 17:20Shawn Ryan?

  It's probably the only reason you're here. But, uh, no, I'm just kidding. But, uh, yeah, those are Vigilance Elite gummy bears, legal in all 50 states. It's just gummy bears.

• 17:33Speaker 06

  Yeah. Thank you.

• 17:35Shawn Ryan?

  Just candy.

• 17:35Speaker 06

  There's all, there's all kinds of gummy bears, you know?

• 17:38Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 17:38Speaker 06

  There's a good one. Oh, that's what they all are. Thank you.

• 17:41Shawn Ryan?

  You're welcome. But, um,

• 17:44Speaker 06

  Thanks.

• 17:45Shawn Ryan?

  But, uh, all right, Tom, let's get into it. So I wanna just do a complete life story on you.

• 17:51Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 17:51Shawn Ryan?

  So, starting from childhood, getting into the military, and then what happened afterwards, all the way up to Warrior's Heart and, and beyond. So it'll be a long day.

• 18:02Speaker 06

  I'm 54, Sean, so this is the guy. We got, and I've had a lot of experiences, so.

• 18:07Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:08Speaker 06

  I'm looking forward to it.

• 18:09Shawn Ryan?

  And, uh, those are important to document. And, um, I know you, you know, we just, you have a ton of respect in the community, you know, and, uh, you know, I don't, I know you probably don't wanna hear this, but you've been called a legend multiple, you know, all the time. And, and you just, younger guys that are coming in look up to you, guys that are in look up to you. I mean, you just, you're a very, very well-respected warrior. And a lot of people wanna hear what you have to say. And so, with that being said, let's start with, where did you grow up?

• 18:44Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 18:46Speaker 06

  Before that, I gotta say is like, I'm super proud of everything that you just said and did, you know, and, um, and a lot of people, uh, comment that I hear and get, and it's a great one is, is like, man, you're so humble. You're, you know what I mean? You're kind. You're, it's like, absolutely I am, man, because I know that I ride on the shoulders of giants. Like, like, I can't really, the only thing that I can take credit for in my life, uh, is my willingness and a lot of hard work. Uh, but everything else, the men in the story, you'll see, like, the men that have been in my life, those that went before me and helped me get to where I was, you know what I mean? That's why it's super easy for me to, to be humble

• 19:31Speaker 06

  and grounded and, and where I am and know who I am and what I stand for. And even whenever it comes to that combat time and everything, man, there's, there's a generation of guys, like you said, that's in right now or that have gotten out over the last couple of years that double everything that I've done. Wow. I mean, I mean, literally. So I'm proud to be, uh, you know, again, everything that I've done, not going to minimize myself by any means. And, um, and I want to say that I know a lot of guys that have even more than I do. And I can't wait to hear from them one day, you know, when they come out. So I had to, I just, it was important for me to put that out. And, um,

• 20:13Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  Mr. President, my company, for me, the explosion on our rig on October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 20:51Speaker 02

  Tom Cruise is.

• 20:52Speaker 03

  Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us up.

• 20:56Speaker 02

  From the director of Birdman and The Ravenet.

• 20:59Speaker 04

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You're stalled, you freeze to death. That's what?

• 21:03Speaker 02

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 21:06Speaker 04

  I'm not the first daddy.

• 21:07Speaker 02

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17 out of 10 without parent.

• 21:12Speaker 06

  So yeah, growing up, so I grew up in this, uh, in a small town called Belgrade, Florida. Have you heard of Belgrade before?

• 21:21Shawn Ryan?

  Is that south of Okeechobee?

• 21:23Speaker 06

  It is.

• 21:24Shawn Ryan?

  Whoa, that's a rough town.

• 21:26Speaker 06

  Rough town.

• 21:27Shawn Ryan?

  That's a very rough town.

• 21:28Speaker 06

  Very, very.

• 21:29Shawn Ryan?

  Was it rough back then?

• 21:30Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 21:31Shawn Ryan?

  What year? What years were we?

• 21:32Speaker 06

  Uh, I was born in nineteen seventy.

• 21:34Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 21:34Speaker 06

  So I was, I was in Belgrade from seventy to, uh, eighty-seven. So seventeen years I lived there.

• 21:41Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 21:42Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's, uh, sugarcane fields, cornfields, uh. It's, it's, it's, it's a rough place.

• 21:50Shawn Ryan?

  Yes, it is.

• 21:51Speaker 06

  You know, uh, and how I grew up is I, uh, uh, middle class, you know, uh, my dad worked at, everybody, you know, was farming of some sort. You know, my dad worked at, um, uh, the sugarcane mill, cause I mean, literally sugarcane's all around there and, um, uh, he worked on computers even back then. So that was like Gen one computer kinda stuff, you know, and, uh, but that, my, that's what my dad did. He worked there. Um, and my mom was, uh, uh, she helped out with the schools, you know, with school teaching and stuff at that time, too. So, uh, when I grew up, my dad was alcoholic also, uh, whenever I was growing up.

• 22:33Speaker 06

  Uh, wasn't an abusive alcoholic, uh, but you know, he wasn't around a lot of times, just doing, I don't, my parents, you know, they, they did the absolute best that they could with what they have. And I hold them in no blame for my life, you know, uh, they taught me how to work hard. They taught me everything that I am today, you know, fundamentally. So, um, I have a younger brother and a younger sister. Uh, my younger brother is, uh, five years younger than me and my sister is eleven years younger than me. So we had a.

• 23:01Shawn Ryan?

  Quite the spread.

• 23:02Speaker 06

  Quite the spread there with that and, um. Uh, let's see. So growing up, uh, man, I've always wanted to join the military. Like my whole life, uh, primarily because, uh, two, uh, my uncle was a three tour Vietnam vet, uh, and my grandfather, uh, was a World War II vet.

• 23:24Shawn Ryan?

  Were you close with them too?

• 23:25Speaker 06

  Yeah, really close. My uncle, uh, because he was still on active duty. He was just that, you know, me starry eyed hero guy that was, you know, in Germany, you know, whatever, doing all this, uh, you know, come and visit, you know, he'd bring me all my paratrooper, uh, T-shirts, you know, US paratrooper death from above, you know, and, uh, and but my grandfather on my mom's side, uh, was, uh, yeah, super, super close with him. Yeah, really tight, always take me fishing at all the games, him and my grandmother, uh, on my mother's side was very influential. Um, my grandfather on my dad's side, you know, he was in law enforcement for thirty five years, you know, during some really, really tough years.

• 24:10Speaker 06

  Uh, you know, he was already a law enforcement officer, so they, you know, they kept some of them here for law enforcement and send the rest of the men to overseas, you know, so that was both. I had law enforcement and military on both sides of my family. That made it kind of rough too, as a kid growing up, whenever your grandfather's this legend, you know, and you get in trouble for shoplifting something from True Value Hardware Store, you know?

• 24:34Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah. Did that happen?

• 24:37Speaker 06

  Yeah, it happened.

• 24:39Shawn Ryan?

  Was it worth it?

• 24:40Speaker 06

  No, it wasn't worth it, man. It was horrible, but it was, um, yeah, so, uh, yeah, so that's kind of the, my, my family dynamics, you know, at that time, uh, and, uh,

• 24:53Shawn Ryan?

  What kind of stuff were you into?

• 24:55Speaker 06

  Man, I love, my whole life, uh, I love playing football, uh.

• 25:01Speaker 06

  I was this, uh, I was a little skinny kid. You know what I mean? My natural build is, uh, you know, very lean and skinny and you know, and then when I was a kid, I was just this little skinny kid, man, but I loved, uh, playing football. Um, looking back on it, one of the reasons why I loved it so much too is it was, uh, it created a construct, you know, there was a system, there was rules, there was things you could do and not do. You know, it was consistent, it was regular, because my life was a bit chaotic growing up, you know, uh, and I grew up, you know, in the seventies and, you know, and in the early eighties, you know, where both parents working. You know, it was just like Lord of Flies, you know, a lot of, a lot of times, you know what I mean?

• 25:44Speaker 06

  With all the neighborhood kids and the older kids, the younger kids, you know what I mean? There was a lot of survival stuff going on, you know, and, um, and again, wasn't poor by any means, we were just about middle class, you know, always had plenty to eat and, uh, you know, then, but when, um, that's where I really got my work ethic from my dad because he worked the hell out of us, you know what I mean? From yard work to getting stuff done, to additions and, uh, that kind of stuff. So I've been, I've been working since I was 10 years old. Um, and, and meaning working for money, you know, like getting a lawnmower business, not a business, but just cutting grass for folks in South Florida. You know, it needs, grass needs cut two times a week, you know, so, uh,

• 26:29Speaker 06

  yeah, so I mean, I've been working hard my whole life.

• 26:32Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, you, you grew up in a rough town. Did you deal with a lot of, like, crime or bullying or?

• 26:38Speaker 06

  There was, I mean, they call it bullying now, you know what I mean? Uh, and, and it was then, but it was just kind of how it was. The older kids and the bigger kids always whipped your ass, you know what I mean? And you always had to figure out how to avoid them and, you know, I mean, it was just kind of like part of life, like, hey, figure it out, man, like.

• 26:57Shawn Ryan?

  Would you defend yourself?

• 26:58Speaker 06

  What's that?

• 26:59Shawn Ryan?

  Would you defend yourself?

• 27:00Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah, man, we have fight and, I mean, violence is something that has, uh, been throughout my, my life, you know, as far as that whole.

• 27:09Speaker 06

  Survive figuring out how to survive instinct and you know, back in those days, like I said, they didn't even use the term bullies or anything. It was like, well, get stronger. You know what I mean? Like learn how to fight better. You know what I mean? But it was, uh, which was actually really good, you know?

• 27:25Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I'm just curious, what would your parents, I mean, would you, what would your parents tell you to do? In this, in those situations? Or would they even know that was going on?

• 27:35Speaker 06

  Yeah, most of the time they didn't even know that was going on because it wasn't like some beatings, you know, coming home with black eyes. It was just like, you know, a couple punches, you know, in the parking lot, you know what I mean? Or get, or the smart ones would just be all body shots, you know, so not to mark up the face and, uh, but a lot of times the parents, you know, I mean, they, they, they really didn't know, especially during those times. I mean, the kids were just kind of on their own in, in everyone's household, you know, and we're just tearing up the neighborhoods and stuff, but it was, yeah.

• 28:07Shawn Ryan?

  Did you have?

• 28:11Shawn Ryan?

  What was your greatest fear as a child?

• 28:15Speaker 06

  Wow, that's a good question. Greatest fear as a child would be that something would happen to my mother.

• 28:22Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 28:23Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 28:24Shawn Ryan?

  Do you know why you feared that the most?

• 28:26Speaker 06

  Um.

• 28:30Speaker 06

  Hang on a second, that, because I never really thought about it. What was my greatest fear? Because that wasn't a conscious thought. That was me thinking of it right now, looking back. Um, my greatest fear growing up was that the older boys were going to whip my ass. You know what I mean? Who just lived right across the street. You know what I mean? So how do you E and E around this? But that was, that was the, the greatest, uh, a big fear.

• 28:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, that would be at that time.

• 28:59Shawn Ryan?

  All right. Um, you know?

• 29:04Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think that your father's trouble with alcohol affected you in any way?

• 29:11Speaker 06

  It did. We didn't have a great relationship growing up. And being an alcoholic myself, you know what I mean, I understand why now. You know what I mean? At the time, you know what I mean? Like, you know, he didn't have the ability to engage in meaningful conversations, you know, in depth, you know, about emotions, about preparing. Like, one of those questions that was asked, you know what I mean? How would you prepare for something? He didn't, you know, so none of those kind of conversations. He was just the rule enforcer.

• 29:46Shawn Ryan?

  Gotcha.

• 29:46Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? His household and, again, no blame to him, knowing what I do now. But it was, yeah, didn't really, we didn't have a great relationship as far as learning, other than me learning how to work hard, you know?

• 30:03Shawn Ryan?

  Makes sense, makes sense. What about, you know, you had mentioned you were really into football.

• 30:08Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 30:09Shawn Ryan?

  Would you consider yourself an athlete back then? Or was it more of a hobby?

• 30:14Speaker 06

  No, I was, yeah, I was an athlete.

• 30:18Speaker 06

  Because I wanted to be better in football and so I hit the weights, you know, at a young age, you know what I mean? So I hit the gym. So, I mean, I was putting in hard work at the gym. And I mean, and I was in small town, South Florida. Football is religion. You know what I mean? It is what everybody in the town talks about, you know what I mean? So it's really all that anyone ever cares about. So, so being good at that, you know, was a good thing, you know? And always, you know, I wanted to be stronger. I wanted to be faster. I wanted to be all those things. And again, I was a skinny kid, so it took a lot, a lot of work.

• 30:56Shawn Ryan?

  So, natural ability or personal drive?

• 30:59Speaker 06

  I had some natural ability in there for sure. I just was lacking on the size and strength a lot of times as far as that piece. Yeah, but I was and and I got, you know, working out has always been good medicine, you know, for me as far as self-medication, right? We always talk about everybody's got it. Like, working out always sorted out my emotions, sorted out, you know, I got my energy levels back down to not being like, super pissed off, or super sad, or super anything, you know, just, hey, just get tired enough, you know, and you'll be kinda alright. But, uh, and I just, I loved lifting weights, man. You know what I mean? I just loved everything about

• 31:41Speaker 06

  it. But I always had that, like I said, that desire to be in the military, uh, which meant you had to be strong, you know, you had, you know, I mean, like I said, I'm in my 50s, like Rambo was the thing, you know, I mean, Chuck Norris, like, man, I was like, that was my, you know what I'm saying? That's what I, that's what I grew up on, man. And not just only did I just want to be in the military, I wanted to be in the Ranger Regiment, like.

• 32:06Shawn Ryan?

  You knew exactly what you wanted to be.

• 32:08Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah, man. I wanted to be a Ranger. And then, uh, that like got solidified, uh, whenever, uh, cause you know, technology was minimal, you know, back then, it was, you know, didn't even have cordless phones, you know? So it's, uh, so it was, uh, just magazines and articles and reading stuff about it and, and TV shows or movies, you know, and, um, but then one time they had, uh, you know, Army recruiters had some guys come in, they had some Rangers come in, and, um, and I just remember looking at these guys, you know, and there at that time, you know, this is late 80s, you know, they're all high and tights, lean, you know what I mean? And, uh, and they were, and this

• 32:51Speaker 06

  one guy, he talked about something just this simple, he was like, he was on a little cocky E5, you know what I mean? He was just like, yeah, I'm a Ranger, you know, and this is my house, you know, had his ruck on, he's like, everything that is valuable in my life is in that. And I take it wherever I go. I was like, that's the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life. Like, I want everything that is about me to be in one pack and that. Yeah, man. So I was all, I was all in on the Ranger thing. Like, that's all, all, all I ever wanted to do, right? Which the hilarious thing about it is the one thing that I never got to do in my whole military career.

• 33:28Shawn Ryan?

  That's interesting. I was, I was, uh, I don't recall saying that in the timeline.

• 33:34Speaker 06

  You would say, yeah.

• 33:35Shawn Ryan?

  But, so when, when did you?

• 33:40Speaker 06

  When did you finally enlist? So, uh, my uncle and my grandfather being the big influencers that they are, they're both enlisted guys, right?

• 33:51Speaker 06

  And so they're like, hey, cause they knew I'm gonna join the army. I wanted to enlist right out of high school. Like, period in the story, that's what I wanted to do. And, um, and they both said, it's like, hey, well, if you're gonna join, then you need to be an officer. I'm like, well, I don't wanna be an officer. They're like,

• 34:11Speaker 06

  okay, you know, cause how I was raised, like you did what you were told by men that you respected, you know? And I'm like, okay, well, I guess I'll go be an officer, which, so I got some college time.

• 34:24Speaker 06

  But again, I was, uh, I was a mess, man. I was an angry, uh, emotional mess, you know? Already an alcoholic, you know what I mean? I was already that guy that always drank too much. You know what I mean? You know, that guy that you're like, bro, like, for real? What age did that start? Probably sixteen. Yeah, man, that was, uh, it was a huge part, you know? And, uh, and the, the thing about, because it's such a huge part of the story, you know, all the way to Warrior's Heart, like, as we go through the story, it's like my life's work is now at Warrior's Heart. Like, everything that I experienced along the way is put into practice there.

• 35:08Speaker 06

  But like even, um, like alcohol, man, was the only thing that made me feel normal. Like, if I wasn't drinking, I was full of restless, irritable, discontent, shame, guilt, remorse, anxiety, panic attacks. Like, that's what it felt like to not have a drink. I mean, frayed all the time, like, all of that. But it presented as like, oh, I'm just this shy country boy. You know what I mean? He doesn't say much. It's like, yeah, cause I had all of that going on inside of me. And when I took some drinks,

• 35:41Speaker 06

  It all just settled in. Yeah. And it just made me feel like how I thought you felt. You know what I mean? It's like, I just was normal and I could come out and play. Yeah. And that's what made me an alcoholic, you know, because there's some people that are just drink too much and are hard drinkers. And there's alcoholics who there's a chemical reaction that occurs, you know what I mean? And it's a physiological thing. So if I didn't have to feel as bad as I felt with just by taking drinks, then I'm gonna do that as often as I can, you know? And I did. And I'd be lying to you if I didn't say I had a ton of good times drinking.

• 36:24Speaker 06

  Because I did, you know, I mean, I had a whole bunch of really, really good times drinking. Then those times got less and less and then at the end of my drinking, it was just nothing but bad. Yeah. But um, but at those times, yeah, from the time sixteen on, man, I was just partying, you know, being a teenager and drinking too much. And so then I go to um, I go to college. So I was at a community college, but I was participating in Florida State, uh, their ROTC program. Because they had an exchange there. I didn't make the grades to be at Florida State, but I was at their. So I got to go through a, a jump school. So I went through airborne school as a cadidiate, as a cadet. Oh, really?

• 37:08Speaker 06

  I sure did, in nineteen eighty-nine. And uh, so I went to jump school and then, of course, like I said, I already was wanting to do it. And I'd been to like a ROTC basic camp, you know, and that was kind of whatever, okay, good. And um, and so, but then my grades were going horribly. I was getting into more trouble, you know, it was just bad. And um, so I left Tallahassee after I'd been to jump school, successfully completed that. And then um, but I wasn't contracted and I didn't have a scholarship. So I was just this dude that had gone to airborne school.

• 37:44Speaker 06

  So, hold on.

• 37:46Shawn Ryan?

  When you went through airborne, was it all cadets?

• 37:50Speaker 06

  No.

• 37:50Shawn Ryan?

  Or were you mixed in with active duty guys?

• 37:53Speaker 06

  Mixed in all, just a regular airborne class.

• 37:55Shawn Ryan?

  So what was that like?

• 37:56Speaker 06

  Man.

• 37:57Shawn Ryan?

  Being introduced to that.

• 37:59Speaker 06

  It was, it was super hard because I was just this dumbass civilian guy.

• 38:02Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 38:03Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? Who, yeah, I mean, I was a tough kid. I was in shape and everything, but I hadn't never had to do any military stuff, you know? Like, hey, when I got tired of running, I'd stop. You know, I didn't know what it's like to like, yeah, if you stop running, you're going to get kicked out of this course, you know? So having to be pushed. Yeah, but it was, um, it was a lot. But the cool thing about it is that uncle of mine, he was still on active duty at that time. And on my fifth jump, on my graduating jump, uh, him and his best friend, uh, uh, we got to do my fifth jump together. Like he was number one, I was two, and uh, his buddy was number three. Uh, at airborne school. So it was epic, man. You know what I mean?

• 38:44Speaker 06

  It was, uh, and those guys, they'd been static line jumpers their whole career, Vietnam vets, you know? And, um, like, you know, over 200 static line jumps.

• 38:54Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 38:55Speaker 06

  It's amazing they can still upright, you know?

• 38:57Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 38:58Speaker 06

  Yeah. So, yeah, but that, it was a normal class. Uh, went and did that. And then, um, they didn't make it there anymore. Uh, school wise, more trouble. And so I just went to the recruiter. I don't know if you've got a recruiter story, but most people have recruiter stories. So I'm super cocky. You know what I mean? I'm what 20 years old, you know? And, um, been to airborne school, you know? So I'm, I was already ridiculously cocky anyway. And so I go into the recruiter and I was like, hey man, get me on the next thing smoking out of here. Uh, so I signed up on a two-year 11 x-ray contract. Cause again, my plan was I was going to enlist.

• 39:41Speaker 06

  Got me off probation early also.

• 39:44Shawn Ryan?

  What were you, hold on, what were you on probation for?

• 39:46Speaker 06

  So just normal redneck stuff from shooting signs with a shotgun in the city limits, you know?

• 39:54Shawn Ryan?

  Nice.

• 39:55Speaker 06

  Yeah, so, so got off probation early, that was a good thing, but I signed up and I, and I, in my mind, you know, I mean, hey, I'm already a warrant qualified. I'm gonna be an 11 Bravo infantryman. I'm gonna go to, at the time, they called it, uh, RIP Ranger Indoctrination Program, you know, and get into the Ranger Regiment. That's what was happening next. So recruiter, so I signed a two-year, uh, 11 x-ray, which mean not the identifier of what you were gonna do. I'm like, okay, what does that mean? He's like, yeah, yeah, you'll be 11 Bravo, it's just this paperwork. I'm like, oh, okay. So then I'm at basic training. Uh, while I'm at basic training, uh, that was in summer of 1990, Gulf War kicks off,

• 40:40Speaker 06

  or whenever Iraq invaded Kuwait. So that kicks off while I'm at basic. So now, you know, wow, every, I mean, like, I was still in replacement whenever that happened. And, um, so, okay, now that there's a war going on. And man, like I said, uh, me in the military, so at that time in my life, I had read every, probably every book there ever was written about the Vietnam War, meaning the, the guys that were in the Vietnam War, you know, all the Rangers, all that. I mean, that was all I could consumed, you know? And so in my mind, like, that was the deal, was trying to get to war. My heroes have gone to war, this parts, you know, it's like, you join the military, it's like, yeah, I wanna go to, go to war. And, um, so that kicked off.

• 41:26Speaker 06

  And man, when I joined the military, it was like home. You know, I mean, I finally fit, you know, uh, a hundred percent. And I was good at it, you know? So it was just, uh, cause a lot of, most of the time in my life at that time, I really didn't fit wherever I was, you know what I mean? Like with the college guys, even with the athletes, you know, I just kinda didn't like get my spot. When I got into the military, that was my spot. And then, um, So then we switched over from at Fort Benning, it went you basic and then A I T one site unit training. So you did them both there. So the advanced training, they give you your

• 42:07Speaker 06

  regular M O S. So they made me an eleven hotel. I'm like, what is that? No, I'm eleven Bravo. They're like, no, you're eleven hotel. You were an X ray. So that means we get to pick. I didn't know that. So eleven hotel. I'm like, okay, well, what's that? And it's like, yes, a tow missile gunner, you know, and vehicles. I was like, that's stupid, but okay. But I can still go to rip. And they're like, nope, they don't take heavy gunnery. They knocked out that part. So then I couldn't go to rip. So now I can't go. So now the dream has died. You know what I mean? Now this part of it, you know what I mean? It's like, yeah, totally screwed. I was super pissed off and everything, but I mean, nothing

• 42:50Speaker 06

  else that I could do. And um, so when you make it through basic A I T, now it's eleven hotel. And um, and then they had me, they didn't, my orders, I mean, everything was all screwed up. Like my airborne wings weren't in there because in my mind, like, hey, I was gonna go to the eighty second, you know, airborne unit. And um, and they had me like slotted for first Riley can, Fort Riley, Kansas, like the big red one. And I was like, what is going on? So my uncle was still on active duty at that time. He uh, you know, he, no, he had gotten out of active duty, but he was still working for the government. Short version, he got me orders to the eighty second. Nice.

• 43:33Speaker 06

  Yeah. So uh, so I was going from there to the eighty second. Um, but prior to that, you know, just like any good movie, you know, what do you do before you go to war? Like you have to get married, right? Because you get married, you go to war, you get killed, and then you're just a big hero, you know, and everybody loves you, you know? That's how I saw life anyway. And um, so um, so, so I got married. And uh, uh, so I, the, my wife, I met my wife my senior year of high school. Um, my parents got divorced. Uh, I met, went to a different high school and I met her and I still remember the first

• 44:17Speaker 06

  day I ever met her. Like, uh, it was one of the weirdest things in my life as far as uh, Like I can still picture it in my head, the first time that I ever saw her. Like, and it was just like, yeah, I need to be with that person, you know, and uh, and so that's still with that person and um, to date, I've, I wonder about her decision-making process, you know what I mean, as far as sticking with me? And um,

• 44:43Shawn Ryan?

  Well, hold on, where did you guys meet?

• 44:45Speaker 06

  We met in high school through a uh, she was a junior in high school, I was a senior in high school. And uh, like I said, my parents got divorced, just rewinding a little bit, my parents got divorced, uh, and I went to my senior year, I started a new high school and um, and that's where, so I didn't know anyone there. Had a buddy that I'd met and um, and he was friends with my future wife, you know, who was there, so, he introduced us and then we were boyfriend and girlfriend throughout that time, the college time. Me joining it now, we're getting married.

• 45:17Shawn Ryan?

  Was she as wild as you were?

• 45:19Speaker 06

  We were pretty wild, but no, she was not as wild as me, but, because I was a little bit off the chain kinda deal, but yeah. So, and the thing about with uh, with her, she just uh, always made me feel like uh, it was alright to be me. You know what I mean, it always gave me this encouragement um, of that I could accomplish whatever I wanted to accomplish. Like, there was just some kinda connection that I could not deny and obviously welcome, you know what I mean, it was just, and I was a knucklehead, man, you know, and I was mean and I was not kind person and,

• 46:03Speaker 06

  and she stayed with me, you know, through those times, I mean, we've got a lot of years together, you know, we've gone, that's gone back and forth, we've traded hats a few times, you know, but uh, but yeah, man, but that was, uh, yeah, so from that, we were together from that time and then we got married, you know, uh, right before, right before I shipped out to go overseas to the Gulf War. And uh, so we got married in South Florida. Got up to Fort Bragg. She came up to Fort Bragg and she ended up living with my aunt and uncle when I deployed, you know, and they were already over there. I got over there like December of nineteen ninety.

• 46:40Shawn Ryan?

  Well, we're skipping a couple of steps here. So you got into the eighty second.

• 46:44Speaker 06

  Got into eighty second. That's right.

• 46:45Shawn Ryan?

  Where were you stationed?

• 46:47Speaker 06

  At Fort Bragg.

• 46:48Shawn Ryan?

  At Fort Bragg. What was it like? Do you have any family history in the eighty second by chance?

• 46:55Speaker 06

  Uh, no, there's like a, a, the name history, but not personally that I know.

• 47:00Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, I know you, cause I know you have some lineage that served.

• 47:05Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah. Well, there is between me and my brother also. Yeah.

• 47:11Shawn Ryan?

  What was it like for you to check in? I mean, that's a well-known unit.

• 47:15Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 47:15Shawn Ryan?

  You know, were you, were you excited to be there?

• 47:18Speaker 06

  Super excited and absolutely terrified. I mean, cause here I was, cause we'd come up to North Carolina and visit my uncle, you know what I mean? And, and we would go to the, he would take me to the gym, you know, on post. We would drive by the eighty second barracks, all this, this place where I wanted, I mean, you know, it was like, oh my gosh.

• 47:36Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 47:37Speaker 06

  You know, all this special forces stuff, the museums, everything. I'd already been to all of this stuff as a civilian, you know, and so now I'm coming back. And I'm like, okay, now I'm gonna be in this unit and I'm getting ready to go to war. Like, yeah, so I was terrified.

• 47:54Shawn Ryan?

  So you knew you were going to war before you ever even showed up to the eighty second?

• 47:59Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah, because it kicked off when I was at basic, you know what I mean? And then pretty much everybody, you know, majority of the infantry units, you know, were deployed uh, to Saudi Arabia at that time. And then, um, in the eighty second, a hundred percent was there. You know, so when I got orders to the eighty second, even though I still have four binning, I knew that, hey, I was, it was gonna be like, within three weeks, I was gonna be over there.

• 48:23Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 48:24Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 48:25Shawn Ryan?

  What did that feel like? Were you?

• 48:27Speaker 06

  It was, uh, again, I was, uh, I didn't have, like what we talked about before, I had no emotional tools. My only emotional tool was alcohol, like.

• 48:38Speaker 06

  It was the cure all, you know what I mean? It was like, hey, I wasn't always insanely drunk, but I always had drinks, you know, I mean, I always had beer or shots or whatever. And um, so obviously a lot of emotions going on. And for me, all that I would translate those emotions into was anger and hate and violence, you know, uh, cause I can deal with that. Like I don't deal with sorrow and sadness and anxiety like, I don't know. So, uh, so what it felt like going on one hand, I was like,

• 49:12Speaker 06

  I'm like living the dream. Like, uh, uh, now I'm stepping into a world that I've been reading about in books my whole life, you know? Hey, I'm gonna be able to do what my heroes, you know what I mean, have have done. You know, so on that one hand, I was like, hell, yeah, you know, like winning the Super Bowl kinda deal. And then on the other hand, I was absolutely terrified because I was still a civilian, man, like, you know?

• 49:37Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 49:38Speaker 06

  And even though, you know, what I experienced in in post nine eleven, you know, was nothing compared to, you know, the minimal that I experienced going from the street to, you know what I mean, a combat zone and into war was was significant, you know, and had huge impact on me.

• 49:56Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 49:58Shawn Ryan?

  What was it like checking into the unit?

• 50:00Speaker 06

  That I, in eighty second? Yeah. So it was, uh, you know, went to Saudi Arabia, uh, on, got to Saudi Arabia and then, um, cause then we didn't move forward until January, once the ground ground war and then cross. So when I got to my unit and, uh, man, it was crazy. Uh, like they, we had this thing called the Thunderdome. Uh, it was like a whole, almost a whole brigade of of folks and they called it Champion Maine. That was just what they called it. I remember what town it was in. It was basically almost a full brigade and all the artillery elements, infantry elements in one open bay with just cots.

• 50:41Speaker 06

  So it was called the Thunderdome, right? Cause the lights go out, soup cans get thrown, like all kinds of, it was just ridiculous. But uh, so I get to my unit and um, you know what I mean? And there's all these Vietnam vets that are still in. You know what I mean? So it's like, holy cow, you know, I'm just like wide open. And then there's all these ruffians, you know, young guys, my age, guys that have been there longer. A lot of the unit that I went to was first of the 504th parachute infantry regiment. So that unit, the year prior had jumped into Panama. Uh, so that a lot of these guys, you know what I mean? Had gold stars on their jump wing. Had experienced a little bit of combat, you know, already.

• 51:21Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 51:22Speaker 06

  You know, and I'm this new guy, you know, showing up. Yeah, man. So it was, it was a lot, but um, but I was prepared for that. Like I said, growing up, I'd been fighting folks that were bigger than me and you know what I mean? And figuring stuff out, surviving, you know, real quick, real fast. But I was just, I was just super pumped, you know what I mean? Obviously nervous. And then uh, you know, met with my platoon that I was assigned to, you know, and um, you know, and uh, the funny thing is, is that uh, I didn't even think we'd get this deep, but I guess we are, is like at the uh, you know, they have, back in those days, anyway, they had cherry parties, they called them, you know, for the new guy.

• 52:02Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? And usually well as that is, is that they rough you up, scuff you up, and they give you a red belly. You know what I mean? Like pull your shirt up and smack the shit out, you know, it ain't fun, uh, but it's not anything stu-, you know, I mean, like.

• 52:16Shawn Ryan?

  Minor hazing.

• 52:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, minor hazing kinda deal. And um, so I knew that that was gonna happen at some point, you know, and um, but I didn't know how this world worked, you know what I mean? I'm used to looking out for me, you, you know what I mean? Like uh, and so um, they were, they uh, my buddies, and I made good friends right off the get go, you know, certain guys I'd click up with, make, you know, just connections immediately. And they um, they're like, hey, Tom, uh, yeah, so and so and so, he wants us to meet down at the motor pool. You know, and uh, it's like late at night, you know, and it's like, well, I'm like, what for? And he's like, I don't know, man, he just said it's super important, you know, come down here. And I'm like. Hmm, okay.

• 53:02Speaker 06

  You know, and so I'm, I mean, I'm a E1, you know, I mean, or E2, I got promoted to E2, you know, out of basic and um, so I'm, I'm the lowest guy there. So I get down there and I see how everybody's kind of posturing and like, you know, my spidey senses, you know, or I'm like, man, something's gonna go on and I'm not thinking about a cherry party, you know what I mean? I'm thinking like, man, these guys want to whip my ass. And uh, like, alright, you know, and uh, so and then one came in on me, you know, and then I knew, so then it was uh, that's like, wasn't like fist throwing fights, but it was like, it was coming there. And then once I finally got one guy down and I cocked back, and then um, somebody said like, give him a red belly,

• 53:43Speaker 06

  and I was like, oh, this is what they call a cherry party, you know what I mean? It's like, so it's not a full on fight, you know, so I got my little cherry party thing there with that, and I was in the platoon, you know what I mean? It was, I was good. Yeah, so that was what it was like, man. A lot of senior guys, man, so many good uh, NCOs, you know, I mean, guys that were showing me the ropes, you know, right from the get go. I mean, we were getting ready to go into combat, you know what I mean? So some of them themselves, a lot of them hadn't been there before, some of them had, you know, so it was just, uh, and I just was learning from all of them. I mean, as we go through my story, you'll see this theme

• 54:23Speaker 06

  of these, these strong men that are in my life that showing me the way, if I'm open to listen to them, you know, and uh, so it was just about training and learning and getting me up to speed with all of that stuff. And then uh, you know, and then January, the air war kicked off, like, we moved up to the border, uh, and then air war kicked off, and then uh, and then we went in February, you know, was the ground war. But it was kind of hilarious, um, because it was, I didn't get into, personally, I didn't, a lot of guys got into a lot of serious fights during that time. I wasn't, I wasn't in any big fights, you know, during that time. We were, we were

• 55:05Speaker 06

  following behind the French Foreign Legion, their armor element. Interesting. Yeah, so you can imagine what the aftermath of that was, you know, uh, and we're in two and a half and five tons, because we're a light infantry unit. I mean, we had our tow missiles and, you know, and our thermals and Humvees and stuff, none of it armored, you know, um. And so we were just falling around. So it was a really big suck fest, but it was, you know, that same, you know, fear of war and seeing wars devastation, you know, and seeing a lot of innocent, you know, getting destroyed along with the bad. You know what I mean? So it was a really, uh, really eye opener for me. Uh, you know, we cleared a bunch of bunkers, had a lot of interactions with a lot of Iraqis surrendered to us, that stuff.

• 55:50Speaker 06

  But I personally didn't get into any big fights, but I definitely got, other than the fighting aspect of it, for me personally, I got the full picture of what, you know, how awful, you know, war is.

• 56:05Shawn Ryan?

  If you didn't get any fights, how did you, what gave you that picture?

• 56:13Shawn Ryan?

  What did you see?

• 56:14Speaker 06

  Uh, so we seen, uh, like whenever we would come through, um, some villages that had been bombed before, you know, I mean, you, so you'd see what you'd normally see in a village that got bombed, you know what I mean? As far as the innocent folks, the bad guys, you know, burn up, blowed up, that kind of piece, uh, on highways that we were across. Cause we just crossed hundreds of miles of desert, you know, and set up checkpoints and until we got to the end, but, um, and then.

• 56:41Shawn Ryan?

  So did you see a lot of casualties?

• 56:43Speaker 06

  Lot of casualties, yeah.

• 56:44Shawn Ryan?

  What kind of emotions were going through you when you saw your first dead bodies?

• 56:50Speaker 06

  Um, what kind of emotions were?

• 56:54Shawn Ryan?

  Did you see women? Did you see children?

• 56:55Speaker 06

  Yeah, I did. It was, uh, I was pretty, uh, numb, uh, because I was, uh, pretty emotionally overwhelmed. Remember when I was hyping myself up to not be so afraid? You know, cause that was what was going on and being hard and, you know, and that kind of stuff, which was necessary. So I was just like, man, that's so screwed up. You know what I mean? That is like, but I under, I had read so many books and stuff before. So even though it was books, I had a, and a lot of those guys that I was reading before, you know, I mean, those, those Vietnam vets and especially the, uh, You know, I mean, they, they talked about this thing that I was now seeing, you know, they talked about some of them, you know, in, in the much more graphic details of like

• 57:39Speaker 06

  how horrible aspects of war is and war poems that they had written, you know, just the, the heartfelt, the other side of war. Yeah, there is the glory and there is, you know, good against bad teams, you know, that piece, yes, that's real, but also this other piece is real. But it really affected me again, because I was already an emotional mess, uh, without any tools. So my only response to that was more hardness, you know, just, just being more like, yeah, this is war. That's what it's like. You know, just, I was 20 years old, you know, you know, like, yeah. So, but so experienced all of that piece,

• 58:22Speaker 06

  uh, turned, uh, turned 21 in Iraq. Um, I've got several birthdays to Floyd, but, uh, turned 21 in Iraq. And so couldn't go out to a bar or drink or nothing, you know, and then, um, so, uh, nothing really big, significant came that came back from, uh, Iraq. So two things that happened after I got back from Iraq, it was, uh, on the, on the military side of the house, man, I was on my way, you know, um, I, I was, so I couldn't go to the Ranger Regiment. So my next step was that we'll at least get to Ranger School, you know. So, uh, on the, on the military side, um, I was excelling, you know, got

• 59:02Speaker 06

  my expert infantryman's badge, uh, you know, go to pre-ranger, go, you know, all of that's excelling, but my personal life is coming apart, which was super weird to me, like, um, and I didn't make the connection that it was alcohol was the main thing. There was a whole bunch of things, but you know, hey, alcohol was the major catalyst of all these second and third order effects of.

• 59:25Shawn Ryan?

  What, when you say your life was coming apart?

• 59:28Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 59:29Shawn Ryan?

  How so?

• 59:30Speaker 06

  So meaning that, uh,

• 59:33Speaker 06

  So number one, I had no emotional tools. Number one, and I'm with this wonderful human being of a woman. I've experienced war. I've gotten even more harder and more angrier and more violent. You know, so I'm just kind of going down the food chain, you know, of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you know, to almost a survival kind of frame in a peaceful environment, you know what I mean? So the only people that I'm comfortable with is guys that I went to war with, you know, and military guys. And, you know, and then emotional stability was not there. You know, I couldn't provide all the other aspects that my wife needed from me, you know?

• 1:00:17Speaker 06

  And she needed me to be there emotionally, physically, in every kind of way. And I was pretty good whenever I wasn't drinking, you know, it was a pretty decent human being. But as soon as I started drinking, just I started getting that mean level. So then there began to be problems with her and I. Obviously, our relationship wasn't doing good. You know, it was just going downhill with no hope in sight on the personal side. So that's where, but I didn't know that there was another way.

• 1:00:52Shawn Ryan?

  Did you have any kids at the time?

• 1:00:54Speaker 06

  No, thank God. No, I did not. It was just us. And I didn't know that there was another way, like what we were talking before, like, hey, no, this is what warriors do. Like, we get drunk, we whip people's asses, and everybody's terrified of us. Like, that's what makes you a warrior, in my mind at that time. So I wasn't about to give any of that up.

• 1:01:18Speaker 06

  But it would always bleed over into my family life, you know, because it always does. One always bleeds into the other, you know? If I'm having problems at home, then that's going to bleed into work. If I'm having problems at work, that's going to bleed into home, you know what I mean, eventually. So that's what was happening at that point. But on the military side, man, I mean, within the first two years, like, you know, I got my expert infantryman's badge, went to pre-ranger twice. I failed, I mean, I passed both times, but it was just, you had to go to Ranger School within 30 days. And let me back up a little bit, so.

• 1:01:58Speaker 06

  So when I got to the unit, got back from uh from the Gulf War, started doing that. We're just in peacetime training, you know, everything is wonderful, back into doing it. I'm trying to get into Ranger School. So we got a new platoon sergeant. And my platoon sergeant was Vietnam Vet. So, so this was a conventional Army unit, right? The 82nd. But here are the players that are in this unit, right? Just a conventional unit. Um, so, uh, 1st Brigade, right? The 504th. Uh, so General Abizade, you remember Abizade from the Global War on Terror? You know, General Abizade?

• 1:02:37Shawn Ryan?

  Can you, can you talk about him for a second?

• 1:02:39Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:02:40Shawn Ryan?

  Why he was influential?

• 1:02:42Speaker 06

  He was our brigade commander at that time. So, and then, uh, one of the battalion commanders was General McChrystal.

• 1:02:49Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 1:02:51Speaker 06

  And then, so you've got that epic of human beings in the 82nd in this particular regiment. And it was all throughout. So it wasn't like you just had the, and then like, uh, you know, guys sprinkled in there, lower enlisted, you know, that had, they're not leaning, they're NCOs, but you know, they got over 20 years in and stuff and they're E7 because they've been busted three times, you know, and, but then he was a door gunner in Vietnam on three tours. You know what I'm saying? So I've got these kind of people, uh, Sergeant Major Hogard, who's the book Charlie Rangers, you know, he's in that book, you know what I mean? So that I read, and now he's my sergeant major. You know what I mean?

• 1:03:32Speaker 06

  So that's, that's the men, that's the warriors that is around me as a PFC in the 82nd. You know what I mean? With this level of, of folks, you know? So my, my platoon sergeant at the time, and the only PFCs that could go to Ranger School, um, were, uh, in Ranger Regiment. Only PFCs could go. If you weren't in Ranger Management, Ranger Regiment, you had to be a specialist, an E4. I was only a PFC. But my platoon sergeant said, hey, go to, he knew I wanted, what do you want to do? Hey, this is what I want to do. He's like, okay to, so battalion was running a pre-ranger, a little pre-selection for, uh, pre-ranger, you know? So, because you know the military, pre to pre to pre.

• 1:04:15Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:16Speaker 06

  And so I was like, yeah, but I'm only a PFC. He's like, yes, shut up. Go do what I tell you. Okay, so I end up making, you know, getting the top bracket to go to pre ranger. So I go to pre ranger.

• 1:04:30Speaker 06

  Pass, then they screwed up. I've always had bad hearing from shooting weapons without hearing aid. We're just growing up, you know, and um, so it delayed my me being able to put in for orders to go. So then they informed me that, hey, pre ranger is only good for 30 days. So I had to do pre ranger again. That totally sucked. Um, passed. And so now I've met the criteria to go to ranger school for the 82nd, you know, as as a member of the 82nd. Except for one thing, I'm a specialist. So then the command finds out. They're like, what the fuck? Like Spooner's, he's a PFC.

• 1:05:13Speaker 06

  And it's like, um, and so we're gonna lose it, the the division's gonna lose a slot. Cause they only got a couple of slots, you know, for the whole division and like all of this, that. And my platoon sergeant looks at him and says like, yeah, or you can promote him to specialist.

• 1:05:27Shawn Ryan?

  Nice.

• 1:05:28Speaker 06

  Right? Cause he's the old wise guy, you know, and uh, cause he didn't even brief me in on that, you know, I'm just, everybody's wanting to kill me, you know, like, what the fuck? What? You know, and I was like, I'm just doing what I'm told. And then platoon sergeant's like, yeah. So of course, in order to not lose the slot, you know, I got promoted to specialist at like a year and a half, you know, and uh, and then went to ranger school, went to ranger school and um, uh, recycled mountains, but made it through ranger school, graduated. And uh, and now I'm back, you know what I mean? As an E4 in the 82nd with a ranger tab. Like at that time, the only people in the ranger tabs in 82nd were officers or guys that,

• 1:06:09Speaker 06

  you know, had come from regiment at some point in time, you know, there was a few others, but not a lot. And uh, so I was just like golden boy. So whatever school I wanted, I got got promoted early, got this. It was just like, so professional life was incredibly good, personal life, absolute wreck. And um, finally, that personal life, uh,

• 1:06:31Speaker 06

  Collapsed, you know, and my wife's like.

• 1:06:34Shawn Ryan?

  How did it collapse?

• 1:06:36Speaker 06

  It collapsed because I wouldn't stop drinking and we had gotten to the point with my wife where she's like, if you keep drinking, it's over.

• 1:06:42Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I mean, let's get a little more specific.

• 1:06:45Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:06:46Shawn Ryan?

  How did it collapse? Like, what were you doing on the off time? What was, why was she gonna leave you? Was she a drinker?

• 1:06:55Speaker 06

  Yeah, but not much at that time. I was training her to drink at that time. So what happened was like internally, I was emotionally a wreck that, you know, I mean, alcohol was the only thing that was keeping me going. I mean, the fact that I hadn't have gotten a DUI, that I had gotten put in jail, that I had, you know, I mean, I was, I was a, I mean, I was a ruffian, man.

• 1:07:17Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, was it, what was it? Was it, were you cheating on her? Was it bar fights?

• 1:07:21Speaker 06

  No, I wasn't cheating on her. It was, it was fighting and it was, and I would be a blackout drunk. So I would do, say horrible things, do, you know, I mean, like I would fight, I would, I mean, it was just no matter who was around, what was around, inappropriate all the times. And, and she was afraid to be with me.

• 1:07:41Shawn Ryan?

  How many nights a week?

• 1:07:44Speaker 06

  At least five.

• 1:07:46Shawn Ryan?

  Five nights a week?

• 1:07:47Speaker 06

  Yeah. I mean, and then over the time, especially at the end, like the last couple of months of my drinking, man, the good days were gone.

• 1:07:54Shawn Ryan?

  Did that, I was a blackout drunk.

• 1:07:57Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:07:58Shawn Ryan?

  You know, and,

• 1:08:02Shawn Ryan?

  how do you, I mean, would you be humiliated in the morning? Did you ever, did you wake up a lot knowing that there had been some type of an altercation or argument or whatever? And, and you don't even remember what it was about, but you're still gonna, your ego is still gonna let you play into it and go, I don't even know what I'm pissed off about. I don't know what we argued about, but I'm picking up on the, I'm picking up on the body language from the people around me that I have obviously done something.

• 1:08:31Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:08:32Shawn Ryan?

  And I'm just gonna pretend like I know what it is and ride this out.

• 1:08:35Speaker 06

  Yeah. I mean, it would happen all, and a lot of times, I mean, it would. You know, I mean, people would say like, yeah, this is what you did, but I didn't believe them. Because, I mean, I would do things when I was drinking that I would never do when I was sober. Like, it wouldn't even, I would set myself on fire. You know what I mean? Like bully someone or like walk up and punch some dude in the face. You know what I mean? Like something that I would never, like kind of be a bully, like I would never do those kind of things. Or be mean to my wife, or say mean things to her, or even cuss, you know what I mean? A lot around her, you know, at those times. And then I'd get drunk and then it was like, yeah, you did this and you said this.

• 1:09:16Speaker 06

  And you know, I mean, at first I didn't, I was like, you're lying. Like, why are you making this up? I mean, it was driving her a little bit crazy too, because I believed that she was lying. Cause I, I knew that I would never do those things.

• 1:09:30Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:31Speaker 06

  But nonetheless, I was, you know, so all of that had been going on for a long time. I was, I was a mess and the only solution I had was just drive it even harder and faster, you know? And so then it finally, it was, it, it got so bad and I couldn't stop this train that I was on. Like, uh, that, um, and I knew it wasn't gonna end. Like, I'm just a rotten son of a bitch, man, and that's how it is, you know? Alcoholism, the family tradition, you know what I mean? This is just how it is. Like, hey, shame on you for tying your wagon to mine, you know? And, uh, that's not how I felt inside, but that's what came out, you know what I mean?

• 1:10:16Speaker 06

  Because inside, I mean, I loved this person more than life itself. I mean, I had two loves in my life, uh, my wife in the army. Like at that point in my life, lost her. Cause you know, we got, end up getting separated. I moved into the barracks, uh, and it was just.

• 1:10:34Shawn Ryan?

  You got separated?

• 1:10:35Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:10:37Speaker 06

  Yeah, it was uh, cause I finally like, hey, if you get drunk tonight, um, we're over. You know, I mean, I got drunk that night, cause I couldn't not get drunk that night. Of course, she knew, cause I told her, yeah, it was like over, you know, so uh, big blow up, you know, get out, totally appropriate. She's a smart woman, you know what I mean? Like, the best thing she could done in her life at that moment was to get away from me, for sure. Uh, so I went into the barracks, uh, I moved into the barracks. And meanwhile, like, the, no one knows how bad my, my, you know, so when I asked my platoon sergeant, like, hey, I need to move into the barracks, you know, he's like, why? Cause they think I'm this golden boy.

• 1:11:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:20Speaker 06

  But they don't know me outside of work, you know, I mean, they, they just know that all of this piece of it. So I come back and ask him, like, hey, I need to get a room, you know, they're like, for what? You know, I'm like, yeah, my wife and I are separated, and they're like, for what? You know, and uh, it's like, uh, you know, I'm not gonna tell him why, you know, but it was just like, sure, man, whatever you need, you know, I mean, and it's like, okay. So now I moved into barracks. So the hilarious thing about me getting sober, cause that's what this is leading into, is is that um, it's kinda like trying to get sober at the bar. Uh, cause all, the most of my drinking started in the barracks, cause that's what you do in the barracks, you know,

• 1:12:02Speaker 06

  and then uh, and then we went out and then came back to the barracks, usually, you know, is how I'll go. So now I'm in the barracks, not drinking, and uh, and that's where I'm gonna get sober, you know, so. You can get sober, that's, that's testament to be like, you can get sober anywhere, anytime, if you really just wanna get sober. And um, yeah, so my wife and I were separated. She was moving on with her life, uh, appropriately. The only thing that saved us from getting a divorce right then and there was in the state of North Carolina, you have to be separated for a year, legally separated for a year before you can get a divorce. So we had put in the paperwork, we were legally separated, and um, she was going on with her life,

• 1:12:43Speaker 06

  and uh, and I was going on uh, with mine, but I just focused on the military and, you know, and getting sober.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  Mr. President, my company told me of the explosion on our rig.

• 1:12:56Speaker 02

  On October 2nd.

• 1:12:57Speaker 01

  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 1:13:02Speaker 02

  Tom Cruise is.

• 1:13:03Speaker 03

  Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us up.

• 1:13:07Speaker 02

  From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 1:13:09Speaker 04

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You're stalled, you freeze in there, that's what.

• 1:13:13Speaker 02

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:13:17Speaker 04

  I'm not the first daddy.

• 1:13:18Speaker 02

  Digger. See the trailer online, only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R, under 17, not a middle without parent.

• 1:13:23Speaker 04

  Priceline Negotiator.

• 1:13:25Speaker 07

  It's me, the.

• 1:13:26Speaker 04

  Priceline Negotiator.

• 1:13:28Speaker 07

  We don't need the jingle twice.

• 1:13:29Speaker 04

  What about a third time?

• 1:13:31Speaker 07

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• 1:13:38Speaker 04

  Seems like they just started.

• 1:13:40Speaker 07

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• 1:13:44Speaker 04

  Time to read the tagline.

• 1:13:46Speaker 07

  Fine. No one deals more deals than.

• 1:13:48Speaker 04

  Priceline.

• 1:13:49Speaker 07

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• 1:13:49Speaker 04

  Priceline.

• 1:13:51Speaker 07

  Touche.

• 1:13:51Speaker 04

  Priceline.

• 1:13:52Speaker 07

  Priceline.

• 1:13:58Speaker 01

  Mr. President, my company told me of the explosion on our rig.

• 1:14:01Speaker 02

  On October 2nd.

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 1:14:07Speaker 02

  Tom Cruise is.

• 1:14:09Speaker 03

  Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us up.

• 1:14:12Speaker 02

  From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 1:14:15Speaker 04

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You're stalled, you freeze in there, that's what.

• 1:14:19Speaker 02

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:14:22Speaker 04

  I'm not the first daddy.

• 1:14:23Speaker 02

  Digger. See the trailer online, only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R, under 17, not a middle without parent.

• 1:14:33Shawn Ryan?

  So your wife left, Joe.

• 1:14:35Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:14:36Shawn Ryan?

  Now you're, you're ready to get sober. What was that like? How did you, how did you start to get sober?

• 1:14:41Speaker 06

  Yeah, so what, what got me in the mindset of getting sober was a few things is, uh, or just the idea of it.

• 1:14:53Speaker 06

  Because man, the, what all was going on is, is I've always had people that loved me in my life, whether it's family, people, but what went on in my head is like, yeah, but you wouldn't love me if you knew me.

• 1:15:06Speaker 06

  You wouldn't love me if you knew all the things that I had done. You know what I mean? So it was this constant unworthiness, you know, whether it was real or not, it was real for me. And I would always hurt my family, you know what I mean? Emotionally, you know what I mean? I would just let them down time after time and time. And that would always break my heart, which always led to more drinking. You know what I mean? Because that's my, alcohol wasn't my problem, it was my solution. You know, so without my solution, alls I got is problems. So... But man, I just got tired of hurting the people that I loved the most. And then my wife and I got, when we got separated, you know, I mean, that was devastating to me.

• 1:15:46Speaker 06

  On the inside, externally, it was just anger and like, I don't fucking care. You know what I mean? Like, that was external, that was like what I had to display, you know? Because I had nothing else. Inside was just crushed, wrecked, hurt.

• 1:16:03Shawn Ryan?

  How did you feel when your wife told you, "She's get out"?

• 1:16:08Speaker 06

  Uh, one part of it was relief.

• 1:16:11Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 1:16:11Speaker 06

  Yeah, because I didn't want to hurt her anymore. That's just, that's how jammed up I was as a human being at that time. I have this person in my life that I love more than anyone on this planet, who wants to be with me, but I keep pushing her away. You know what I mean? And now I want her to leave because I can't. So part of me was relief and the other, because at least I wasn't going to be hurting her anymore. Then the other part was devastation, like, oh my God, what, like, she's my person. You know, like my person. And so, and I really, and so I'd heard about AA

• 1:16:53Speaker 06

  because my dad got sober back in 1988, you know, so this is 92. So four years prior, my dad had gotten sober. I didn't care. Like I said, we didn't have a great relationship. He's like, he's talking to me, telling me he got sober, he's in AA. I'm like, oh, stupid, weak-ass shit, you know?

• 1:17:13Speaker 06

  Where I was at the time. And, um, but what I couldn't deny was that here was this man, he'd been sober a few years, like I said, almost four. Here was this man that had lost it all, right? He'd lost the family, he lost a job, he almost lost his life. But here he was sober, you know, he hadn't had a drink in four years, and he was happy. And that perplexed me. Like, you've lost your family, you should just be miserable for the rest of your life, you know? I mean, just my mindset was. But undeniably, he was happy, and he said it was because he went to AA, you know, and in God, which that was a different subject, too, because I hated God.

• 1:17:54Shawn Ryan?

  You hated God at the time?

• 1:17:55Speaker 06

  Hated God. Uh, um, all my life, I'd been raised in the church, uh, you know, had wonderful examples of church. I just could never connect with it. And that's not anything negative on church. That was just where I was. I could never relate or understand to the God that they were talking about, how they were talking about him. You know, I knew it was, I knew there was a God for sure. You know, I just, for whatever reason, knew that. And I knew that what I had seen in this life, like how rough my life had been, all the innocent people I'd see get destroyed, like, it was like, yeah, man, if, if you, there is a God,

• 1:18:37Speaker 06

  it's the devil, like, because how could you allow this kind of stuff to go on? Meanwhile, I wouldn't see all the beautiful things, you know, that were going on. I was just focused on the negative, because that's where I was at, you know? And, um, so my dad had mentioned that, you know, and, uh, and he had called me, you know, and, uh, hey, how are you doing? I'm gonna quit drinking. You know, so I said, I'm gonna quit drinking, you know, because anything I'd ever decided to do in my life, I'd done, that I had told myself. I might tell you some shit, that might or might not happen, but anytime I said with me, like, what's the big deal? I'm just gonna quit drinking, you know?

• 1:19:18Speaker 06

  Well, the big deal, if you're an alcoholic and you quit drinking, things get bad. And then if you stay stop drinking, they get worse. And then if they stay stop drinking, they get intolerable until I have to have a drink. I have to, you know. So, um, yeah, so that's why I wanted to get sober, man. But, but really, like down in my heart, but my heart was covered up by a whole bunch of heaps of other not good stuff, you know, it was just all this stuff blocking me and, um, but in my heart, that's what I wanted. I wanted what was best for my wife and all of that. And I wanted to be better, but in my head, I was just so screwed up and pissed off, you know?

• 1:19:59Speaker 06

  So I went to AA at first just for another reason, uh, that I might could get back my wife. Manipulation, like, hey, I'm going to AA, you know, want to get back together?

• 1:20:11Shawn Ryan?

  So there was another side of just the relief?

• 1:20:14Speaker 06

  Yeah. What's that again?

• 1:20:17Shawn Ryan?

  There was another side. You said you felt relief when she said she wanted you to leave?

• 1:20:23Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:20:23Shawn Ryan?

  So there was a whole nother side to this?

• 1:20:25Speaker 06

  Yeah, the other side of it was is that, again, I hated hurting her the whole time. And now that she wasn't going to be in my life, then therefore I could not hurt her again.

• 1:20:36Shawn Ryan?

  How long did it take you to?

• 1:20:41Shawn Ryan?

  How do I put this?

• 1:20:42Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:20:42Shawn Ryan?

  How long did it take you to realize that you needed her?

• 1:20:49Shawn Ryan?

  Because now you're, now you're playing manipulation games.

• 1:20:52Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:20:53Shawn Ryan?

  Trying to get her back. How long did that take?

• 1:20:56Speaker 06

  Oh, it was instantly the manipulation games. Again, I was so kind of twisted up inside. Like I was relieved that I'm not going to hurt her, but I know I can't live without her. So now I'm going to manipulate the situation to try to get her back.

• 1:21:08Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:21:09Speaker 06

  Like, that's a mess. I think they call it a hot mess nowadays.

• 1:21:12Shawn Ryan?

  And so when you decided to go to AA, you, did you have, did you not have any intentions of actually getting sober? This was just a way to manipulate?

• 1:21:22Speaker 06

  I had intent, the thing that I did have an intention of was not drinking anymore. Right? Cause I was like, I finally fully realized and understood that, number one, I can't drink like regular people, like I take a drink. And then all this happens, like these other people, they take drinks and then they just kind of stop drinking or whatever, you know, I mean, I always thought they were weird, but then, uh, so, but I did not want to drink anymore, but I didn't think AA would work. It was all a bunch of bullshit. AA is a bunch for a bunch of damn weak people that can't control their own lives. That's, that's my mindset going in there. So for the first, first amount of time, meanwhile, I'm in the barracks, still doing the duty day, you know,

• 1:22:07Speaker 06

  still working, still doing the army stuff. But I'm going to these AA meetings at night and, uh, and I'm reading the AA book, the blue book, you know, and it's got the 12 steps in it, you know, and, um, and so I'm reading that book, but I'm not, they, there's a lot of things they recommend, like, hey, you go to a meeting, obviously you don't drink, you go to meetings, you get a sponsor, which is someone who guides you, you know, through sobriety, and you go through the steps, you know, and work the steps with a sponsor. I wasn't doing none of that. I was, I was, cause again, I got real problems, man. Like you're saying this little bullshit stuff is not going to help me. And plus I'm damaged, like y'all can't help me anyway. Like I'm rotten, you know? And, um, but anyway, so

• 1:22:51Speaker 06

  I'm going through it and, um,

• 1:22:54Shawn Ryan?

  Why do you, I mean, why did you think you were that rotten? I mean, because you're, I'm, I'm, I feel like we might be missing something because all of the stuff that you're describing is pretty common everyday life for a combat infantryman,

• 1:23:11Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:23:12Shawn Ryan?

  special opera, anybody who's in a combat role, at least in that time period, I don't know how it is today, but it seems pretty par for the course. And so I'm wondering, what is, where's the extra guilt coming from?

• 1:23:27Speaker 06

  The extra guilt is coming from, I ended up becoming the guy that I hated the most.

• 1:23:33Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:23:34Speaker 06

  Meaning, uh, the bully.

• 1:23:36Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:23:37Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? Uh, The guy that would take advantage of situations, you know what I mean? That was mean, that was nasty, that was ugly to people. You know what I mean? That like I ended up becoming the person that I hated more than anything. Like I said, the only thing that was above my, the level of hate I had for me was God. But just, and, and, and then growing up, there was a lot of things like I was a mean kid growing up. Like to my brother, you know what I mean? So I just always had this.

• 1:24:11Speaker 06

  I had always had this unworthy, damaged, so self-concept is what, you know, a lot of people talk about, right? Is, and that's what we are talking about. So my self-concept was is that, is that whether it was real or in my head, my self-concept was is that I was a damaged human being and didn't deserve anything good in this life other than to suffer. That's what went on here. Some of that was justified in actions that had happened. A lot of it, maybe something people said, you know, experiences that I'd had or that I had come up with myself. So that's basically where I was as a human being at that time.

• 1:24:56Speaker 06

  And I really, I'd already lost my wife. The next thing was the army, because I mean, I just hadn't gotten caught drunk on duty. I hadn't got caught drunk and drunk, you know what I mean? Like, you know, I mean, the, the only difference between me and Guy in prison or in the ground is inches and seconds. You know what I mean? That's it, the only difference. I did what getting caught, but I mean, I'm not an idiot. Like, I keep doing it, like, you know, statistics happen, it's gonna happen. So, so I didn't want, I'd already lost number one thing and I'm about to lose number two. You know, if I drink, so I was solid on not wanting to drink. And I wanted to drink so bad I couldn't stand it. Cause again, drinking wasn't my problem, it was my solution.

• 1:25:41Speaker 06

  You know, and um, so eventually I got a um, a few things happened, you know, I got promoted to sergeant. Again, I'm this golden boy militarily. Now my wife and I are separated, uh, but I'm really focused on like getting sober, you know? And it was, I've done a lot of hard things in my life, a lot, really hard things. To date, for me, the hardest thing that I'd ever done my entire life, uh, is early sobriety. Uh, cause I was having to change core beliefs, change how I'd acted my whole life, change every person, place or thing, you know what I mean? I was, only had to change one thing my whole fucking life, you know what I mean?

• 1:26:25Speaker 06

  And uh, and I'd never been able to do that before, you know? So doing that, like no kid not talking about it, like actually putting in the work and doing that and continuing to not drink was the hardest thing that I'd ever done. I mean, that's why a lot of guys don't stay sober, cause it's hard. The reason why a lot of guys don't make it to the SEALs, cause it's hard. Like, you know what I mean? Any super hard thing that's worthy in life takes an incredible enormous amount of work. And for me, to date, that's the hardest that I've ever done. But I was making it harder on me because I wasn't doing what was suggested. Like, hey idiot, here's, here's the plan. Like when I went to Ranger School, I went to pre Ranger, I followed the regulations, you know what I mean?

• 1:27:09Speaker 06

  The Ranger Handbook, like all of that stuff. It was like, hey man, there's a book, follow the book, you get the results. Just like the gym, like, hey, you wanna get stronger? You'd go to the gym, you pick up things that are heavy and you move them around, like, then you'd go, you'd get a results. The, the real bottom came, uh, whenever I couldn't imagine my life without drinking and I couldn't imagine my life with drinking. You know, and I just hit this surrender point of uh, of where I had to go all in. You know, I mean, on this sobriety gig, you know, the steps and sponsors and all this crap that I didn't think would work. So, so I did, you know, but I resisted that up until the end

• 1:27:51Speaker 06

  where I couldn't resist it anymore, you know, and I finally gave up, you know, I surrendered. What I mean when I say I gave up, I gave up on trying to do it my way. Like, I'm gonna get sober my way. Like, hey, if you can get sober your way, like, right on, man, go right ahead. But I couldn't, you know, and um, so I got that sponsor and um, and, and we started going through the steps, uh, you know, and then I got what I always needed, which is relief. I drank because I needed relief. I needed relief from my emotions, from my mental, from everything that was going on. I needed relief from that alcohol gave me that peace. Now I don't have alcohol in my life. What am I gonna use to get relief?

• 1:28:36Speaker 06

  You know, and uh, the cool thing for me is, was, uh, and it really relates into Warrior's Heart, you know, when it comes up, but is, uh, I got sober on Fort Bragg. So I got sober, I got sober with Warriors, you know what I mean? So significantly different atmosphere than being in a civilian AA meeting, you know, or health, uh, 12-step group meeting. Because I was with military guys, you know, and majority of them were milit, uh, Army, you know, it was Army Base. We had some Air Force mix, but it was mainly, and so we all spoke the same language, same analogies, same, you know, I mean, the military lingo. They would attach spirituality to military decision-making processes. They would attach sobriety, all these

• 1:29:19Speaker 06

  different things to the construct of how my brain worked, which was military-minded, you know? And so it was huge, and I got sober with Warriors, you know, and um, and like, again, hero warriors, Vietnam vets, like, World War II vets, like, holy crap, you know, like, these are badass warriors who are sober and also men of God.

• 1:29:45Speaker 06

  What? You know, because for me, it was a lot of all or nothing. It was that team mentality, you know, uh, which I was all into. I'm not judging or hating, you know what I mean? It was like, yeah, if a warrior means this, you know what I mean? And then now I'm trying to be this other thing. It didn't fit in that construct of what a warrior. It's like, what am I gonna be? I was really afraid of getting sober too. It's like, man, am I gonna turn into some kind of hippie? You know, and uh, like, in my mind, if, and this was just in my mind, but in my mind, if you wanted to follow God, that meant that you, um, if you gave your life and your will over to God, that meant you put on a white robe and you went down to South America and that's what you did for the rest of your life was tell people about God.

• 1:30:31Speaker 06

  I didn't want to do that. You know, I want to be a warrior, man. Like, I'm just getting started. Twenty-two years old. You know what I mean? I've got this military career that's just, I mean, I'm going somewhere. I don't know if I'll get my wife back or not, but like, you know, but it's terrifying, the idea of trusting in God. It was, for me, it was, because it meant, I didn't know what it meant. Did it mean I have to give up my life or what? I didn't know. But through that process of going through the steps, you know what I mean? With my sponsor, uh, you know, that process alone clears away all the wreckage of the past. If you do it, if you follow the directions, you get the results, you know? And for me, that's what was life-changing.

• 1:31:16Speaker 06

  Obviously, I'm condensing it down a whole lot, but it's, uh, for the first time in my life, uh, you know, by clearing away the wreckage of my past and making amends to the best of my ability, uh, and having a fellowship, you know, I mean, of men in my life, uh, women also, but stronger with the, you know, fellowship of men, and, um, that held me accountable and held me and encouraged me, you know, and busted my ass when I needed it, you know? I had a God in my life, my own personal God, for the first time in my life. Uh, it was amazing. I was happy, joyous, and free without drinking for the first time in my entire life.

• 1:31:59Shawn Ryan?

  How long? How long did it, did it take you to?

• 1:32:06Shawn Ryan?

  Get to the 12 steps. How, how, how long did you give yourself? Or I guess, I guess a more appropriate question would be from the time you decided you wanted to stop drinking to the time that

• 1:32:18Speaker 06

  The miracle happened.

• 1:32:19Shawn Ryan?

  You hit bottom.

• 1:32:20Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:32:21Shawn Ryan?

  What was that timeframe?

• 1:32:22Speaker 06

  62 days.

• 1:32:24Shawn Ryan?

  62 days?

• 1:32:25Speaker 06

  And I know it was 62 days, yeah. From the time I had stopped and then I just resisted, went to meetings and had a book, but, and read the book, but not all then. That was 62 days and then that was the surrender moment. Then I got a sponsor and was on board and I told my sponsor, I was like, I said, here's the deal, man. I'm gonna do whatever you, this is me telling my sponsor, like, here's the deal, man. Here's the deal, man, like, uh, That's how arrogant I am.

• 1:32:50Shawn Ryan?

  This is how I'm gonna do this.

• 1:32:50Speaker 06

  Yeah, this is how arrogant I am. I said, I said, I'm gonna do whatever you tell me to do. Hundred percent. I'm gonna do what this book tells me to do a hundred percent. I'm gonna do what these steps say to do a hundred percent. And when this shit doesn't work, I'm gonna go get drunk. And he said, deal. Like,

• 1:33:09Speaker 06

  what? He's like, yeah, man. That's all you gotta do is try. You do all that stuff? That's all I'm asking. So my intention was to prove that that shit didn't work for a damaged person like me. And I got sober.

• 1:33:24Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 1:33:24Speaker 06

  So intention, that was the absolute horrible intention. You know what I mean? Like to prove that it didn't work. And I got all the goods out of it and all the, and all the wonderful miracles that came from it. That what, what it, what it reinforces is, is action is all that matters. Do the actions. Do the work. Don't think about it. Don't pray about it. Like do the work. Like going in the gym. If you look at how we go into the gym, you can watch all these YouTube videos, me and you can talk about it all day long. We can make up a plan and we would just, I mean, just geek out on it. But until we go in there and start lifting heavy things, it's nothing's gonna, nothing's gonna happen.

• 1:34:08Shawn Ryan?

  When did your wife come back?

• 1:34:10Speaker 06

  So see, the uh, it was a little less than a year. We were separated almost a year.

• 1:34:16Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 1:34:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, and during that time, um, you know, alls I was doing was working and recovery. You know, people talk about recovery, it's like, what does that mean? It's like, what are you recovering? You know, man, if you're, I'm in recovery, I'm recovered. I was trying to recover me. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's what recovery is about, is I'm trying to recover myself. Meaning, cause at my, my heart, in my true self, is a really good, solid, human being. But I've got all these traumas, and I've got all this mess, and I've got all these bad behaviors, and I've got all this bullshit in the way of me just being me. You know what I mean?

• 1:34:59Speaker 06

  So in recovery, I'm trying, to date for 31 years, I'm still trying to recover all the pieces that are me, because life goes on, and you're always presented with more trauma, you know?

• 1:35:10Shawn Ryan?

  What was it that, that brought her back? I mean, so she leaves.

• 1:35:15Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 1:35:17Shawn Ryan?

  You attempt for 62 days, there's two months, so she made you go 10 months silver?

• 1:35:22Speaker 06

  Yeah. With no really intention, to my knowledge, of her getting back. Cause I was always, you know, during that time, I gave her her space. Like, all the minute, when I said I was all in on the recovery process, meaning I couldn't manipulate anymore, couldn't lie anymore. I was to be honest, I was to be true, I was to be authentic. You know, I mean, all these things I had never, you know, accomplished before in my life. And she knew that too, you know, and um, and so I gave her space. You know, I mean, I gave, I mean, I would, you know, every opportunity that I had, you know, I would get, cause my sponsor, right? Man, he sent me straight right from the get-go. Cause he asked me, hey, what do you love? The normal get to know kind of questions, like, what are your loves? What are your, I was like, man, I love my wife.

• 1:36:07Speaker 06

  And uh, he said, well, what do you want for her? I was like, I want her to be happy. Um, and it was absolutely my heart, I wanted her to be happy. All that I had put her through, the wonderful person that she is, like, I wanted her to be happy. He said, okay, you want her to be happy, he's like, well, what if that doesn't include you? You still want her to be happy? And I was like, damn. Because in my mind, that her being happy, I was somewhere in that, in my picture, you know? But when he put it to me like nuts and bolts, kinda like that, you know? And my answer was yes. You know, like, but it hit me, it like really settled, like, like really? Like unconditionally.

• 1:36:48Shawn Ryan?

  You'd never thought about that possibility?

• 1:36:50Speaker 06

  Hell no, man, I'm a selfish guy like me. I want what I want when I want it, you know what I'm saying? Like, uh, used to getting it and, uh, and it was like, wow. That was a real question that required a real answer, like right now, you know? And, uh, and I said, yeah. And I was like, damn. But it also freed me up because there was no more game. You know what I mean? Like I was to be me and whatever that meant, trying to figure it out, you know? And, um, and then whatever, if we got back together, we got back together. The only thing that I have made sure for me and did was I stayed, um, you know, I mean, I didn't have a girlfriend, I wasn't seeing anybody else.

• 1:37:29Speaker 06

  I was truly just, uh, cause if I, if, if, if there was any chance of her and I getting back, it meant that I had to be single. If I was in a relationship, then obviously we couldn't never get back. That was, I'm trying to live a life of honesty and all, you know? So I had to like not, you know, to remain single, you know? And, uh, which was another skill set in and of itself, you know? So I really was getting sober, mind, body and spirit. Not just dry, meaning not having a drink. I was working on every part of my life and I loved it. And I was with the men that I wanted to be with. So I'm still with my heroes. I'm still with the Vietnam vets. I'm still with the World War II. I'm meeting these giants of human beings.

• 1:38:11Speaker 06

  Like, again, we read my resume, not minimizing me, but my resume compared to those guys' resume, man, is like, doing good, kid, you know?

• 1:38:21Shawn Ryan?

  No.

• 1:38:21Speaker 06

  Do another 20 years, maybe you'll be all right, you know? Again, not in a minimizing what I did or self-deprecating, but like, dude, these guys were like World War II, Korea and Vietnam veterans.

• 1:38:34Shawn Ryan?

  I can't believe you were in with World War II vets. That's incredible, man.

• 1:38:37Speaker 06

  Yeah. There wasn't, no, there wasn't any on active duty at the time, but I was in recovery with all those guys.

• 1:38:44Shawn Ryan?

  That's, that's still like, just.

• 1:38:47Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:38:48Shawn Ryan?

  The greatest generation.

• 1:38:50Speaker 06

  Epic, man. I mean, yeah, I mean, I can go on and on for days with the, because I chose uh, to have the willingness to be around these folks, the amount that I learned and the stories that I heard, which enabled me to make it the way that I did. Again, that comes back to, it all goes back to them, you know, kinda deal. So, so I'm getting, uh, so now I'm sober. Um, oh, and how we got back together was, is that, uh, you know, I just kept putting in the work and was consistent for the first time ever. And then she really believed like, holy crap, this guy's not gonna get drunk again. Cause she didn't believe it, nor should she should have. But, and wow, I was kind. I was like, I was a solid, consistent, predictable

• 1:39:35Speaker 06

  human being. And so, uh, and so we got back together and, um, uh, we got back together and then, uh-

• 1:39:44Shawn Ryan?

  Who reached out to who?

• 1:39:46Speaker 06

  I reached out to her, you know, to me as far as, cause I was always reaching out at every opportunity, not being manipulative, but just like, hey, would you like to go out to dinner sometime? Like, hey, you wanna go out to the farm? You know, a lot of times it was no, and that was okay. And I had to be, but, uh, so we got back together.

• 1:40:01Shawn Ryan?

  But you got a yes.

• 1:40:02Speaker 06

  What's that?

• 1:40:03Shawn Ryan?

  You got a yes.

• 1:40:04Speaker 06

  I got, eventually got a yes.

• 1:40:05Shawn Ryan?

  So what was that like to reconnect with her for the first time?

• 1:40:08Speaker 06

  Oh my god, man.

• 1:40:09Shawn Ryan?

  Where did you go?

• 1:40:11Speaker 06

  Yeah, so it was, uh, we, we were just out at a, it unfolded, right? Um, that's what I learned about living in my God's world is, uh, is, is I always work hard and I make plans and stuff. But man, if I just allow things to unfold, like my God has the best of things waiting for me. If I just don't screw him up. How do we keep me out of the picture, you know? And, uh, so we had just, uh, we met up and we were like at my, at my uncle's farm, my aunt and uncle's farm, and we were just hanging out, talking. And then one thing led to another and she missed me terribly, you know, because I wasn't a jackass anymore. You know what I mean? She couldn't blame me anymore, uh, just on the

• 1:40:55Speaker 06

  past stuff. But you know, in the near future, you know what I mean? I was, I was decent and, and she was just was like, yeah, let's, cause I'm, I'm in the whole time, you know, I mean, it's like, she knew I was willing and able and wanting to be back together. That wasn't a question. The only question was what she wanted to. Join that party again, you know, and uh, and then just one day it was like, yeah. She's like, yeah, I do. And so then now I had her back, you know, I mean, and I was a different guy. You know what I mean? Truly, you know, I mean, there had been spiritual changes that occurred in me. Uh, I was no saint by any means, but you know, I had um, had a spiritual awakening enough

• 1:41:40Speaker 06

  to recover from alcoholism, number one, meaning I wasn't drunk. And then with that being in place that I was actually a decent human being, still a young man learning what young men have to learn, you know, I mean, it didn't rocket ship me into some kind of yogi-ness, you know what I mean? It was uh, so I had a lot of hard lessons to learn, but man, I was, I was good, you know, I mean, solid dude. Um, yeah. And it was, man, and then from that moment forward, that was the beginning of acquiring, in my mind, zeros and ones, you know, effects, you know, put in the work, get results. It's like, okay, I put in this work, my wife is now back in my life

• 1:42:21Speaker 06

  as a result of that work. Now that's my motivation to keep doing the work. Right? Don't get complacent. Don't get like, hey, this can be gone. But a lot of people don't, most people don't get the opportunity of a second chance, you know, I mean, I know that, you know? So I was gifted this second chance, like, all right, boy, it's on you now, you know?

• 1:42:45Shawn Ryan?

  I'm interested to hear what happened with your career. You know, now we're talking about the marriage, the personal life. You know, one thing I noticed when I quit drinking two years ago is my career went like this, you know, it was, it was on an upward, but then.

• 1:43:07Shawn Ryan?

  It went straight up.

• 1:43:08Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah, man. So I'd already even a high functioning alcoholic that I was, you know, I mean, again, I was already a golden boy status, right? And that was 92. Now we're talking 93 timeframe. So I'm going to all these other schools, right? So I'm like going to Pathfinder school, I'm going to jump master school, like whatever's available, like I'm going to it and I'm crushing it. You know, and some other things that are happening along the way is back to the mentors in my life. So that same platoon sergeant, you know, that finagled me into Ranger School, you know, through his wizardry. When I became an NCO, you know, an E5 sergeant, went to PLDC and Ranger

• 1:43:49Speaker 06

  School and everything. I think, you know, he gave me one piece of information, man, that's still what I do today, you know? And he asked me, he's like, yeah, so what does it mean to be an NCO? You know, dude, I'm 22 years old, I'm a Ranger qualified, E5, you know, I mean, I'm just, but now I'm sober and I'm not this asshole, you know, as much anyway. And it's like mission and health and welfare of the troop. He's like, yeah, yeah, that's true, you know? And he's like, but what does health and welfare of the troops mean? And I was like, well, I mean, I've been to PLDC, I know the answer, you know, and it's like, yes, beans and bullets and hey, you gotta

• 1:44:31Speaker 06

  know what fam, you know, how many kids they have and you gotta know what problems they have going on and they're on. They're like, he's like, yeah, jackass, it doesn't mean that at all.

• 1:44:41Speaker 06

  So now I know I'm about to hear something because anything that I'd ever read in the books and from the army and from, you know, NCOES system and everything, like, okay, I just had regurgitated what, what he said. And so what, he said, no, what health and welfare of the troops means is to you give the men that are under you the ability to survive and thrive in combat. That's what that means.

• 1:45:09Speaker 06

  That's a whole lot different than Beans and Bull. It's like, he's like, yeah, you have to know all that stuff to just be a good leader. A good leader knows their people. I said, but don't ever be confused that with being, you know, I mean, providing health and welfare to the troops, the ability to survive and thrive in combat. That's a whole nother thing. That doesn't have anything to do with this piece. And because of my limited experience, but experience nonetheless in the Gulf War, I knew what he was talking about. I had an idea of what he was talking about. And so from that moment forward, and I was sober, so now it's predictable and consistent and regular. You know, that's what my whole life has been about. You know what I mean? How to give, obviously, when

• 1:45:53Speaker 06

  I was on active duty is like, you have those ability, meaning in training, to survive combat. So teach them right, number one, and then to thrive in it. You know, I mean, that's a whole nother different piece of just survival of combat, you know. So it's given. And again, I'd already mentioned all the other war wizards that were in that brigade, you know. And then, and I started getting exposure to, so it was a Vietnam Vet, and I started getting exposure to this idea of, I really didn't know what I was being exposed to, but it was PTSD, right? I mean, I'd learned that battle fatigue, PTSD, all that stuff. That was a leadership issue. A leader's job is to be able to identify if one of their

• 1:46:38Speaker 06

  soldiers has battle fatigue, post-traumatic stress, you know, that kind of stuff. It's a leadership issue. Not to heal it, I mean, not to fix it, but, hey, Jimmy right there, he's developing these symptoms, his nightmares, his all this stuff that we know that are symptoms of PTSD. Like, I identify those things. And hey, he's got to be pulled offline and fixed. As far as for unit readiness, not caring about the human, any, just back to the military machinery piece of it. So I knew it was a leadership issue. But I mean, there wasn't any offerings. I mean, it was early nineties and stuff. But I got exposed again to more.

• 1:47:19Speaker 06

  Um, I'll probably get this in order, but then the next kind of situation I found myself with was a had one like soldier of the quarter board or something, you know, as doing all these different things that you have to do to excel in peacetime. Cause we were in peacetime army. I mean, I was in peacetime army for 10 years. Yeah. Before nine 11. That's a lot of training. Yeah. That's a lot of experience and uh, and uh, so the uh, won this uh, won this uh, cause I want to get promoted. You gotta go to these boards, you know, I mean, it's all this peacetime army things that you have to do to excel during that time.

• 1:47:57Speaker 06

  And um, so I won this uh, trip to Sacramento, California to be at the 173rd Airborne Division's reunion. The, the, they reenacted it, but back or reactivated it, but back then it wasn't. So it was just Vietnam vets, you know, and Korea. Uh, but the thing about it was is that also during the Vietnam war, the 173rd, the Ranger Regiment, all the different Ranger companies, cause they didn't have battalions then, with companies had supported that unit. So there were all, every Ranger that had served in Vietnam was there also. So I get to go out to their reunion in Sacramento. So now I'm sitting with hundreds.

• 1:48:40Speaker 06

  I mean, there was more missing body parts in that room than probably ever than until that thing happened again. Cause these are all the Rangers, all these guys, there's guys walking around, you know, with four gold stars on their jump wings from World War II. I mean, there's just, yeah, man, there's these guys that the only time they come out of the woods, you know, is for this reunion and then they go back to the woods, you know, and uh, cause they can't deal with society. Or they don't, they choose not to, not, not that they can't, they just choose not to. So I'm sitting there with, I'm an E5, it's like 94, I got four years in the army, you know, and um, I'm in, and so I'm like in awe, but then I'm learning, you know what I mean?

• 1:49:21Speaker 06

  And what I'm learning about, the message that just keeps hitting with me with war and trauma is, is that it doesn't go away. Cause I'm watching all these heroes having fun, talking shit, you know what I mean? Telling stories that that's a chunk of it. And then usually in the evenings, you know, or some part even during the day, there's this darkness, you know what I mean? And there's this savagery of emotions that occurs. And these come aparts and the, you know, I mean, it's like, whoa. And this self-medication, right? Which I, I'm an alcoholic, man. These guys that are, they're feeling so much emotion, they have to medicate it, you know, and that's their medicine

• 1:50:04Speaker 06

  and drugs and everything. So I was just like, and I wasn't being judgmental by any means, you know, it was like, the message I got was, is like, it doesn't go away. Like it doesn't, like here's, it doesn't go away. It's 30 years later, doesn't go away, you know? So, and then shortly after that, I did a 45th anniversary jump into St. Mary's, France. Epic, right? You know what I mean? A jump mastered into, a Stateline jump mastered into that. There was some World War II guys that jumped into there also. You know what I mean? Some of those guys were still healthy enough to jump in and, and they walked in and so we're there. And again, I'm in epic, right? Here I am with all my heroes and, uh,

• 1:50:46Speaker 06

  and the same thing happens like during the day, it's like, I landed right over there and broke my leg and I crawled over here and I shot three Germans over there. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, holy crap. So during the day, we're talking about all that stuff. And then sometimes during the day or then at night, I'm watching them just come apart unhinged. You know what I mean? Like, wow, it doesn't go away, doesn't go away. Like, okay. And that's just information that I'm having, you know, and, uh, and so I would talk to a lot of them about that, uh, especially the World War II guys, you know, which was a much, in my opinion, don't know if it's true or not, you know, a much tougher group of men.

• 1:51:28Speaker 06

  Uh, come out of the depression, you know what I mean? And then live world wars. I mean,

• 1:51:33Shawn Ryan?

  I'm with you.

• 1:51:34Speaker 06

  Yeah, man, like greatest generation to date, um, in my opinion.

• 1:51:39Shawn Ryan?

  That's what they call them.

• 1:51:40Speaker 06

  Yeah, man, and so is they, um, and I went, I was in sobriety, now I'm in sobriety and I'm in meetings and I'm talking to, to veterans and stuff, because now some of that stuff a little bit is burba- gurgling up from me, you know, even though I did my step work, I hadn't been to any, uh, psych- psychology help or anything like that, you know, so I still have a lot of emotions that are not processed and, um, and some of those hardcore, uh, World War II guys, you know what I mean, they called it, uh, some of them would say like, yeah, don't shake the net, boy. And what it meant was, is that, you know, um, all the pictures of the D-Day invasion and the big cargo nets on the big ships that were putting them on the landy craft, uh, you know, you see the pictures and they're just full of it. Well,

• 1:52:26Speaker 06

  these are those guys' stories, it's like, yeah, guys that would be shitting themselves, you know what I mean, or freak out, having panic attacks and like, I'm not going kind of deal and start freaking out and shaking the net that's about to make all these other guys fall off of it. They'd pull them off of it. Because either you go or ten of us go, you know, kind of deal and, uh, and so whenever it came to the talk of war, trauma, those kind of stories, you know, the ones that we have, that we don't even really talk amongst ourselves about, you start bringing that kind of stuff up, they'd be like, don't shake the neck, son. And be like, dang. So one part of me got it, but then the other part of me was like,

• 1:53:12Speaker 06

  something has to be done with that because it doesn't go away. So, you know, I mean, these guys were in their later times of their life, just because where they were and, um, so anyway, I got this, this was even when I was in the eighty second, you know, and, uh,

• 1:53:25Shawn Ryan?

  Let's backtrack just a second. So you're sober, you get sober.

• 1:53:29Speaker 06

  Uh huh.

• 1:53:31Shawn Ryan?

  You get your wife back.

• 1:53:35Shawn Ryan?

  Did you tell your dad?

• 1:53:37Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:53:38Shawn Ryan?

  Call your father and let him know you got sober?

• 1:53:40Speaker 06

  Yeah, I was staying in contact with him. So that was the beginning. Like I said, my dad and I didn't have good relations, you know, young in life. And, uh, man, and he did the best thing, uh, cause he knew, I'd tell him what I was doing, like, yeah, I'm still going to the bar, but I'm not drinking and, uh, cause I'd call him every week or so and just check in with him and stuff. Man, and he was, you know, now, I mean, me being a dad, you know, your son is your son, no matter how old you are, you know, and, uh, and he knew, I knew he wanted to say, you need to stop doing that. You need to do this, you know, and do that, but he didn't. He was just like, well, you just keep at it. Just keep at it. Just keep at it, you know, and, uh, and so when I was, uh, I was, I was enjoying the conversations with him, you know, there weren't any kind of deep, but, uh,

• 1:54:25Speaker 06

  I wasn't angry with him. I wasn't, uh, you know, there wasn't anything in between us. It was, we were just, I was a young man, he was, you know, we're having conversations. So it was, it was super cool. Yeah. And he, uh, and he didn't get into my business. He just kept encouraging me, encouraged me, cause if he'd have said it just with the dad factor, I wouldn't have done it because he asked me to do it, you know, cause I'm, again, that jackass that doesn't like being told what to do. So yeah, he's back in my life and, um, because of me, not because of him, you know, back in my life and man, and, and we're, we're, we're creating this new relationship, uh, which was huge, huge for me at that point in my life too, you know, and I,

• 1:55:10Speaker 06

  it was really big deal. So all those relationships are being, uh, you know, being, being mended up and it's good.

• 1:55:19Shawn Ryan?

  Let's get into your special ops career.

• 1:55:23Speaker 06

  So then, um, uh, I ended up not even, so again, I, my whole thing was like wanting to get to the Ranger management, right? So I'm Ranger qualified, but I didn't go to the regiment. And they'll be quick to tell you the difference between those two things, but, um, anyway, yeah. So, um, so I went to, uh, I'm like, well, what next? Cause I couldn't stay in the 82nd any longer. Um, Some of the best NCOs to date were those men that were there, but I just always wanted like, what's next? Like I want, I needed, I'd done everything that I could do there. What's the next challenge, you know, and uh, and being an SF, you know, Green Beret is like, okay, well that just was kind of like the next thing. Um, and it was, it was like, hey, I was already on another

• 1:56:08Speaker 06

  enlistment and um, and I couldn't switch over. So let me go to that. So in 19, December of 95, I went to uh, Special Forces Selection and uh, and made it.

• 1:56:21Shawn Ryan?

  How did that come on the radar?

• 1:56:23Speaker 06

  Going to Special Forces? It was just that uh, I wasn't, I was like, man, what's next? That was kind of the what's next, it was what was next. It was like, well, I can go to-

• 1:56:34Shawn Ryan?

  Did you always know about it or?

• 1:56:36Speaker 06

  I mean, I always knew about the Green Berets, but it wasn't like one of those things that like, um, hey, that'd be cool, but it wasn't like a, man, I want to devote my life to this purpose, you know, and uh, and it was really like, hey, I didn't want to be a drill sergeant or recruiter because that's the, you know, right at about six years, five to six years, you get tagged for being a drill sergeant or recruiter. I didn't want that. I was like, so let me go to selection because that trumps anything there. So, so not a lot of really huge reason for going other than giving it a shot and that it was going to be super hard. Um, that was the motivation for it's like, hey, do I have what it takes to be at the next level? So I go to that and um, yeah, and make,

• 1:57:20Speaker 06

  and at that time, each one of these things that I experienced, whether it was pre ranger, then ranger school, then best ranger, then SFAS, was the hardest thing I ever done in my life. You know, each one of those, well, not one of those that I just breezed through and like, oh, that wasn't too bad. It was like, no, that was the hardest thing I'd ever done in my life until I got to the next hardest thing I'd ever done in my life. And then at this point, SFAS for sure was the hardest thing I'd ever done in my life. Um, made it through that, uh, super exciting, you know, like holy crap, you know, passed selection. Um, as an 18 Charlie, that's engineer, uh, Special Forces engineer, uh, started, what did I do? Uh, went to the Q course, qualification

• 1:58:02Speaker 06

  course for that. And again, man, I'm now living even more of the dream. You know what I mean? Like now I'm going to be a Special Forces guy. So at this time, I'm about- You know, I'm about, uh, this is ninety six timeframe, so I'm like four years sober. And what I've seen in sobriety is like usually between years four and six, a lot of that unprocessed trauma comes out if you haven't seen a psychologist or, you know, worked through those kind of issues. And for me, a lot of that emotional stuff started coming out, uh, from, from childhood, from past, from, you know, I mean, whatever. It just started coming out. I didn't have any really processing tools other than sharing it with a, you know, another alcoholic or another warrior.

• 1:58:45Speaker 06

  You know, and, um, so there were some tough times, you know, having panic attacks, anxiety attacks. Uh, again, not to do to anything. It was all from past stuff, you know, and it's a natural. What I've learned is that it's a natural progress of the body has to be rid of all of that stored emotion. The body will be rid of it at some point. Usually it comes out sideways. Like if I'm not dealing with something that I know I'm not supposed to be dealing with, it's gonna come out. Whether inappropriate emotional response, inappropriate behaviors, like saying too much, getting mad, you know, I mean, it's coming out. You know, I always revert it back to like a thorn that's stuck in my skin. Like my body is going to kill itself to get that out.

• 1:59:30Speaker 06

  Like, you know what I mean? It's gonna, there's be red and then there'll be pus around it because it's trying to force it out. You know, I mean, it'll go so far as if it doesn't force it out, then I'll become septic and die. You know what I mean? But the body is gonna try to get it out. So all those stored emotions, stored in memories and events, uh, are, you know, were coming out. So I was having these weirdo panic attacks and stuff. I didn't even have the words for them. Cause again, it's mid nineties. No one talks about anxiety and panic attacks, not in my circles anyway. You know, it's just like, man, I don't know what's matter with me, like. Whatever, just don't do anything stupid right now, you know, and um, so I was going through

• 2:00:11Speaker 06

  that and um, one morning, again, now what I know, when I was in language school, I ended up having this panic attack and uh, it just so happened that morning, I was supposed to go in for a PT test, like at zero six thirty, and then normal, like be in class at language school, you know, at zero nine. So I got up with that panic attack thing, um, my wife had already gone to work, I was at the house by myself, no kids still, and I'm having this panic attack, man, I'm not leaving the house. I'm supposed to be at formation, and I'm not going. And I'm, and I'm well aware of the consequences of my actions, uh, like

• 2:00:56Speaker 06

  I'm probably gonna get kicked out, because it was almost like a zero tolerance kind of thing, man, I'd seen guys get kicked out for stuff. And I was just, I was not well, man, you know, I was reading my books, I was praying my prayers, I was just like, just riding it out, but I wasn't leaving the house. For whatever reason, that's, I had, I'm not leaving the house. And um, so um, cool things, people that knew me and I was predictable, you know, uh, the first sergeant, of course, SF, you know, long tab guy, it's like, hey, where's Spooner? Uh, why isn't he at my formation? You know, because I'm student status, you

• 2:01:36Speaker 06

  know, I'm not, like, I ain't made nothing, in those guys' minds, you know, and uh, and so the first sergeant was of course pissed, and then, then I didn't show up for the next formation, and first sergeant came down and he's like, where's Spooner? And uh, I don't know, he's not. And so two of my best friends that I, one of them I knew in the eighty second, and we'd gone to selection, and we're in the course together, they go to the first sergeant, and they're like, hey, first sergeant, um, something's wrong. Because the first sergeant was getting ready to come to my house, unbeknownst to me. Like, I knew I was gonna be in trouble, but I didn't know, like, Some dude was getting ready to come to my house. Something kept coming up and he couldn't come to the house. Cause that's what he told my buddies. He's like, hey, I was gonna go to the house. I can't.

• 2:02:20Speaker 06

  He's like, y'all two, go to his house right now. You know, and unbeknownst to me, so I'm just at the house having a panic attack. Trying to get my shit together, you know? And uh, and so it finally do, you know, it starts easing up, you know, as most emotions do, you know what I mean? Passing and I'm like, I'm like, okay. And right about that time, I look out my window and uh, and I see my buddy Robert's truck pull up like, fuck are they doing here? You know, they're supposed to be in language, we're in the language course together, you know? And I look like a mess, right? I got like some Bermuda shorts on, my hair's all crazy, sticking out. I'm look like a dude that's probably having a panic attack, you know?

• 2:02:59Speaker 06

  And uh, and I'm at the door and uh, my one buddy, he knows about my sobriety and my other path and my other one. And it's like, hey, bro. How you doing? You know, like, nah. Not so good this morning. Like, come on in, you know, cause I wasn't hiding anything. And so they come in, but it was that act of human kindness. You know, I mean, here. It makes me emotional even now to think about it, you know? I mean, here warriors came to the aid, like, cause, cause Rob knew something was wrong. Cause I don't not, I'm a good soldier. You know what I mean? I don't miss formations, like I'm, I set the example, you know what I mean? That's what Tom does.

• 2:03:40Speaker 06

  So he knew if something was wrong and um, so, but just that act of human kindness, man, just whoo. From other warriors, you know, just like really calmed all of it down. I was like, man, ain't that something? So they knew I was good and you know, everything was good. And I was like, uh, yeah, man, I'm gonna iron my uniform up, you know, and then go talk to first sergeant, right? So, so I'm going to talk to the first sergeant and I was like, man, I'm probably gonna get kicked out. I mean, at minimum, they're gonna recycle me, you know? I'm gonna get punished somehow, even though I really, I just missed a couple. But at those times, zero tolerance. Guy's name was First Sergeant Stack. And um, so I go into the first sergeant and uh, and I was like, uh,

• 2:04:24Speaker 06

  he's sitting down, I sat down, he's like, yes, sit down. And um, he's been in SF for over 10 years, you know what I mean? Like this dude's a crusty old SF dude, you know? And uh, and I was like, uh, he's ass.

• 2:04:39Speaker 06

  Like just says that like, I mean, wait, like, you better start talking, boy. You know what I mean? And so, and so I started talking. I was like, hey, first time, first of all, you know, there's absolutely no reason I shouldn't have been at your formation. Uh, there's no excuse. I should have been at your formation. He's like, yeah. He's like, yeah, I know that. He said, so what's going on? And I was like,

• 2:05:04Speaker 06

  what? You know what I mean? Like, I'm already expected to be kicked out in my little movie. You know what I mean? I'm kicked out. I'm going, I'm doing like, and this man is asking me what's going on with, and he meant it. Like what, what's going, obviously something's going on. Tell me what's going on. And I told him, you know, I was like, hey, you know, I, I was having some struggles this morning and there was some things going on in, in my family. My brother was struggling a little bit. Um, uh, with some struggles going on with my mom. You know, I mean, I had some, I wasn't going to tell him fully that I was having a fucking panic attack. You know what I'm saying? I mean, uh, but I told him enough of the truth, probably about 90% of it, that I was struggling, that I owned up to. And then he said something that I'd never experienced before.

• 2:05:49Speaker 06

  He looked at me and he said, okay. He said, uh, he's like, look, uh, you're in special forces now. We take care of each other. And I was like,

• 2:06:02Speaker 06

  what? You know, because we say all that shit. You know what I mean? Like, oh yeah, family first, all this stuff. You know, I mean, nah, you know what I mean? Like we're part of the machine. And he said, and next thing you know, he's offering me time off. He's like, hey, if you need time off, you take time off. And then he said, he's like, but if, if something comes up with you again, that you haven't already talked to me about prior to it happen, then you're out of here. But I understand that kind of language, you know? I, I was like, but again, it was that, it's like, hey, I'm, I'm entering a brotherhood. Like I'm, I was already in a really, every unit that I left, I was not disgruntled at. Like I wasn't like, ah, screw these guys. I want to move on. It was like, man, these were, I, I, you know, I enjoyed it. I wanted to be where I was.

• 2:06:47Speaker 06

  It was just time to move on, you know? And, uh, and so here I'm in, like something's different here with these guys. Like they'd mentioned this brotherhood. We talked about brotherhood there. Like it's a little bit even different.

• 2:07:00Speaker 06

  And um, so I made it and the significance of that, obviously very significant at a low point in my life, you know what I mean? This male figure that is now providing me encouragement, structure, you know, meaning the way ahead, you know, like, hey, keep kicking ass, don't come in my office again, you know, and uh, all language I understood. He ended up getting um, uh, killed in Afghanistan. Uh, yeah, in after the GWAT, you know, kicked off. So again, just men like that in my life. So I finished up the, you know, I'm in this new kind of brotherhood thing. So then I get my team and seventh group, I went to seventh group, you know, Central and South America. Again, man, I won the Super Bowl again, you know what I mean?

• 2:07:43Speaker 06

  Like championship and it's all pre-war, I mean, it's all no war timeframe, you know what I mean? So Central, South America, pretty dicey, you know, drug on war, you know, I mean, it was at least dangerous place to go, you know, uh, super happy, loved the culture, loved the people. Uh, you know, it was dangerous as shit at a lot of times and uh, and it was a lot of good times and yet that, the, the pool of quality of men that were around me was even better. You know, I mean, there was, I, you know, there was guys that I was trying to be like, you know what I mean? It was like, holy crap. And again, the first team that I roll into, like the, the team sergeant is an ex-unit

• 2:08:25Speaker 06

  guy, you know, I mean, so there's that, you know, who's in Grenada and all kinds of stuff. And then there's a couple of other guys on the team that were veterans of the El Sal wars, you know what I mean? El Salvador and all that. So here I am again, on this new team, now being instructed or being gifted with, this is how you do it, boy, you know, like, like learn. And you know, and at that time I was 26 years old, unbroken, I was a beast physically, you know, and a little bit cocky, you know, and uh, and some of the older guys, you know, were a little out of shape, but I didn't know what they had gone through because I didn't know what it was like to be on a team for six years, you know, or what happens to your body in special operations, you know, and uh,

• 2:09:08Speaker 06

  I was a little judgy internally. Thank God it never came out of my mouth, man. But I, I just was like, man, I really need to learn this job. Like, don't be judgmental, like, learn, man. And, um, and I just watched how these guys worked downrange. You know what I mean? Uh, I mean, in non-combat time, you know, we would go and we were just doing foreign internal defense and, you know, teaching POIs and, and, and working. But they were wizards, man. You know, I mean, they, you want to talk about if somebody that can create, they were special forces soldiers by with and through. And like, they could mobilize a battalion at their whim. Which you know, I mean, through buzz, that just gets your foot in the door, man. You haven't really done, in those guys' minds that are working in those units, they're like,

• 2:09:50Shawn Ryan?

  They don't care.

• 2:09:51Speaker 06

  They don't give a shit, man. Like, you've just got your, good job, you got your foot in the door. Now you're gonna get tested.

• 2:09:56Shawn Ryan?

  When you get in there, especially with the guys that are putting you through, I mean, the Mogadishu guys, Tom Satterley and his boys. And we've interviewed Tom.

• 2:10:06Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:10:06Shawn Ryan?

  And, uh, I mean, what was?

• 2:10:12Shawn Ryan?

  And then knowing, they know.

• 2:10:14Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:10:14Shawn Ryan?

  They know more than anybody else what you're about to walk into.

• 2:10:18Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:10:19Shawn Ryan?

  And so,

• 2:10:23Shawn Ryan?

  you know, I would think that they,

• 2:10:29Shawn Ryan?

  that had to be fucking tough.

• 2:10:31Speaker 06

  Yeah, man.

• 2:10:32Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, those had to be some, some hard men to please. And

• 2:10:39Shawn Ryan?

  I would imagine that they,

• 2:10:43Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, did, did it seem like they just despised you? Like, there's no way that you could ever

• 2:10:51Speaker 06

  No, man.

• 2:10:52Shawn Ryan?

  Rise to their expectation to be able to work alongside with them?

• 2:10:55Speaker 06

  Wasn't that at all?

• 2:10:56Shawn Ryan?

  No shit.

• 2:10:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, man, I mean, they were super, they were super tough at upholding the standard. So there wasn't any extra. Uh, like the standard was so hard, number one, uh, but now the intensity level has gone up. Maybe it's always been that way. You know, I mean, I don't, I don't know. I only know my class and the classes after that, that I was cadre on. But it was like that level of intensity of the focus on the standard of doing it right, man, was off the charts. And we had a really small group. How many? There was no, I mean, there was probably 10 to 12 guys in, in, in my little group, you know, so there was almost a one-to-one instructor.

• 2:11:42Speaker 06

  Like you weren't getting away with nothing. And they were not going to send a product to, like, all of those guys had already, obviously, their instructor status now. They had spent, you know, years on the teams, like, they're not sending body, any shitbag back to their friends. So there's that aspect of it, too. Like, cause there's a good chance that they'll be working with them. You know what I mean? Cause after they finish, finish that time as being instructed, they're going right back. You know, so that, that's what kept us so fresh. So, yeah, it was super intense, man. And then the, so it was the normal pressure and then the self-imposed pressure. Cause here I am now, another Super Bowl win, right?

• 2:12:21Speaker 06

  Like, uh, now I'm going through the gate of this compound that I've been around for 11 years.

• 2:12:30Speaker 06

  And, uh, I'm actually going through the gate. So for a little while, the, you know, and the intensity so had, and, and every week they made a decision where you were staying or not. I mean, that was common knowledge. They had a little meeting and with the instructors, it was where you were, whether you were staying or not. And there were guys getting, getting shipped off, you know what I mean? And then, I mean, just cause you made it through that. So if you had to make it through the last board at the end, you know what I mean? It was intense, but I loved it. You know what I mean? And again, it was during that time. So that was just amazing, right? And so back to, uh, month two, you know, basically of a January timeframe. And my son was born in the middle of January, right? So, uh,

• 2:13:12Speaker 06

  And during that time in the training course, you know, it was a lot of basic stuff that we were they were doing at the time because they're getting the whole group up to speed. Because you know, they're pulling from guys with all different backgrounds, you know, I mean, sort of getting everybody, setting everybody up for success along the way. So there's a lot of stuff marksmanship wise that I was already good at and a lot of things. So my son was born and so awesome, you know what I mean? Two year old infant, you know, newborn, wife, everything's good. You know, have a little bit of time to take care of that and family's coming in to help take care of, you know, obviously very planned for because I got to be in this course. You know, I mean, so it was all good. Everything was good and then some complications occur with my wife.

• 2:13:57Speaker 06

  She has very hard, hard time with pregnancies. And so, but it was, that was mostly during pregnancy. This was post, so usually no problems after that. Well, I don't know that there's a problem. I'm on the range, black suburban pulls up, you know, with the, the sergeant major of the training. You know what I mean? Who was a team leader in Mogadishu, by the way. So that whole crew, you know what I mean? So, so he shows up and he's like, yeah, we're Spooner. Yeah, I'm fired. You know what I mean? Like Sergeant Major doesn't come. Yeah. You know, I mean, at the range and ask for like, for only one reason, you're out of here. So I get in and he don't say shit.

• 2:14:39Speaker 06

  He's like, yeah, get in and get, we get in and I'm like, I'm fired. You know what I mean? He's like, hey, your wife's okay, but she's in the hospital. There's been some complications. She's stable, but you know, there's a lot going on. He's like, so you're going to take this suburban? You're going to take this cell phone? Because 2001 timeframe, right? So we don't have iPhones and all that, you know, you're going to take this cell phone. Uh, go take care of business, go take care of your family, keep me updated.

• 2:15:09Speaker 06

  Fuck out of here. And so I do, you know what I mean? Roger that. Thanks. I mean, you know what I mean? And I go, but in my mind, I'm like, what? Where am I? You know what I mean? Like, what? Who does this? Like, I mean, of course, that you can't miss any time, man. I haven't even made it, you know, me through the first month, and now this is going on, whatever. So go through, and you know, it's life, a lot of complications. We got septic. There was, you know, different, different things that had happened. And it took a few days to get sable. So, I mean, I missed a couple of days, you know, I mean, because I got a newborn, a two-year-old, you know, I mean, like, there's a lot going on. And so I was like, hey, whatever. I know my priorities are straight. You know what I mean? The family is first in this

• 2:15:53Speaker 06

  scenario, you know what I mean, versus the school. And we're just taking care of it. I'm heading. So we get it all settled in again. And after a couple of days, and I go back to work, you know, keep our major updated. Everything's good. Back to work. And then it was after work this time, she ended up having to go again to the hospital. You know what I mean? So it was another little stint. And so it was a lot, a lot going on, right? And so I know, I'm like, man, I'm gonna get, at best, recycled. You know, here I am again, like my little scenario, it's not me this time, it's a family situation, but it's like, same kind of scenario where like, at best, I'm gonna get recycled. If not, like, hey, man, you can't handle your own family problems, you probably don't need to be in

• 2:16:37Speaker 06

  this unit, you know what I mean, kind of deal. So, so anyway, I call the sergeant major up,

• 2:16:45Speaker 06

  and say, hey, Sergeant Major, everything's settled. Like, he's like, 100%. He said, don't call me until, because she didn't know she went and had to go back. He's like, okay, like, make sure it's settled before you call me back again. Like, take the time, make sure your family is good. The support is there that you need, whatever you need. Meanwhile, this dude is number one, taking care of me, by allowing me to do that stuff. And his wife is taking care of my wife. Like, she's, she's, we don't even know this, these people. They haven't said this, but without saying it, they didn't need to is like, yeah, this is how we handle people here, our people. You know what I mean?

• 2:17:29Speaker 06

  It's like, it's fucking bizarre world to me. And it's like, like coming, calling my wife, checking on my wife, like, who the fuck is she? Like, it almost weirded me out a little bit, like, what do they put the fucks in it for them? You know what I mean? Cause I'm just, but it was just like, so I call Sergeant Major up, say like, hey, yeah, it's good. It's like, we're, we're good, we're solid. And I'm, I'm waiting for him just to tell me, he just didn't want to hurt my feelings along the way, you know, like, hey, we're gonna recycle you into the next class. You've missed six days of training now. You know, and he's like, okay, you settled. Yeah, good. He's like, all right, uh, go to Raleigh, there'll be a, uh, cause my guys, they were doing training out at Campbell with aircraft, you know? And it's like, hey, your team's already out at Campbell, there's a plane ticket waiting

• 2:18:12Speaker 06

  for you in Raleigh, pick up a ticket, get on the plane, meet up with your team, continue with training. I started laughing at the dude. Like, I'm like, I started laughing and he's like, what? And he was like, I was like, hey, Sergeant Major, like, do you want one of my kids? Like, what, no one does, like, what do you mean? Like, he was supposed to tell me, like, no, I'm recycling, you know? And he's telling me to continue with the training, you know? And, uh, I was like, you want one of my kids or something? He laughs a little bit, you know? And he's like, hey, um, uh, he's like, he's like, uh, he's like, hey, man, it's just the right thing to do. Like, why is that? Like, what the fuck, man? Who is this? I hadn't even made it, you know what I mean?

• 2:18:57Speaker 06

  And like, they're taking of me like I'm a unit member. You know what I mean? Like I, like I'm-

• 2:19:01Shawn Ryan?

  Your, your mindset is I don't deserve this treatment.

• 2:19:04Speaker 06

  Yeah, exactly. And, yeah, and they're like, hey, yeah, this, as if, you know? And, uh, and here's another example of like this next level of brotherhood, this next level of care for the family, you know what I mean? This like, okay, I'm, I'm in a different, different spot, you know? And, and this is, and these are with these guys. You know what I mean? So it bursts that bubble of, or begins to burst some of the bubble that, hey, to be a badass commando, you gotta drink and tear up, you know, and all that kind of stuff. I mean, some of them do, and again, I'm not judging, but then there's also a large group that, that they don't.

• 2:19:48Speaker 06

  They're just total badasses anyway. You know what I mean? Like, and so I was meeting all these different kinda, kinda dudes and everything, you know? So, so my wife's better, everything's good, you know, make it through the course. Uh, yeah, so I'm, so I'm in, you know?

• 2:20:07Shawn Ryan?

  Well, what did it feel like getting through that course? With the graduate, when you're done, in nine eleven and just, I mean, you're the first class to graduate OTC at Delta.

• 2:20:20Speaker 06

  I hadn't thought of that till you just said it.

• 2:20:22Shawn Ryan?

  Post nine eleven?

• 2:20:23Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:20:24Shawn Ryan?

  The longest war in USS.

• 2:20:26Speaker 06

  Yeah. Yeah, man, I was fucking pumped.

• 2:20:29Shawn Ryan?

  What do they say to you?

• 2:20:32Speaker 06

  Uh, welcome. Welcome to the team, yeah, man, like, here's your team room, here's your team sergeant, here's, like, let's get to it. In typical fashion, it's like, hey, great job.

• 2:20:43Shawn Ryan?

  No, hold on tight, it's gonna be a wild ride.

• 2:20:46Speaker 06

  Oh, no, so then whenever it comes, and now then you get with the team, right? And so that was the next, uh, kinda cup check, you know, sanity check for me was like, you know, how good can these guys really be?

• 2:20:58Shawn Ryan?

  What squadron did you go to?

• 2:21:00Speaker 06

  It was A, yeah. So it's like, hey, how good could these guys be? You know, cause I've been doing CQB NSF for a while, been to CQB schools and stuff. It's like now OTC level, it's like, you know, and that which up the game, it's like, can they really be that much faster and that much better, like? Cause I don't have a point of reference, you know what I mean? And I'm a little bit arrogant guy myself, you know, and, uh, and so when you get to the team and then my two IC, you know, uh, he says to me, it's like, hey, when we're going on team runs, you know, doing CQB in the buildings, he's like, hey, man, just throw chem lights and try to keep up. You know, mate? Okay, like, yeah, watch, you know, me being my little bit arrogant, it's like.

• 2:21:44Speaker 06

  You know how good I am, you know what I mean? It's like, uh, and so what did I do for the next few weeks? Throw chem lights and try to keep up. You know what I mean? Because it was, these guys have been working together. Like, as you experienced, you know, get man, you get on a team. These dudes have been doing it at this level together for this. Like that's, I mean, there's intuitive shit they're doing. You know what I'm saying? They just see how him, he's leaning and he knows what he's doing already. You're like, these guys know each other in the house, under nods, like, it's, it's incredible. So there I am again, just trying to keep up, man. I'm trying to, I mean, I'm always going for the title, man.

• 2:22:25Speaker 06

  And it's like, but in that crew of men, that crew of warrior like that, man, is like, like, holy crap, man. Let me just be amongst them, you know, and be, and have a decent reputation amongst them. Like, that was like the goal. I mean, some days you'd win, you know, be on top, but then you knew that they were coming. It was that healthy competitiveness, man, where it was just like, it was incredible. It just created this fighting force that was unlike anything I've ever experienced in my life. And now I was part of it, man. So I was, I was ecstatic. And again, with my, my belief system in place is that, okay, if I'm not supposed to be here, I wouldn't have made it. So I'm supposed to be here, so be all in until I'm not like living moment at the moment,

• 2:23:08Speaker 06

  living in the present, living in the day, having in the plan and like learn your job, get to work and like, let's go. And let's go to war, man. Like, I am, you know, I mean, I spent 11 years, you know what I mean? Like my whole life for this moment.

• 2:23:25Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:26Speaker 06

  Like, and obviously there was some naive, naive to that. Cause I mean, I experienced some of it in the Gulf War, but just a, just a taste, you know? So there was a little bit of naive of what that meant, but I, I kinda knew what it meant. Um, you know, and I was, again, now I'm almost 12 years or 12 years in. A lot of hard stuff. I was pretty hardened, trained, hardened mind, body and spirit dude, you know? Like I was about as prepared as you can get to go to war.

• 2:23:57Shawn Ryan?

  How long was it after you graduated OTC before you went out the door on your first deployment?

• 2:24:05Speaker 06

  Two months.

• 2:24:07Speaker 08

  That's it.

• 2:24:07Speaker 06

  Two, maybe three.

• 2:24:10Speaker 08

  Let's.

• 2:24:10Speaker 06

  I'm not sure, a couple, but minimal, no more than three.

• 2:24:13Speaker 08

  Let's take a quick break. When we come back, we'll get into your first deployment.

• 2:24:16Speaker 06

  All right.

• 2:24:20Speaker 08

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• 2:25:04Speaker 08

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• 2:26:17Speaker 08

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• 2:27:10Speaker 08

  Thank you for listening to the Sean Ryan Show. If you haven't already, please take a minute, head over to iTunes and leave the Sean Ryan Show a review. We read every review that comes through and we really appreciate the support. Thank you. Let's get back to the show.

• 2:27:32Speaker 08

  All right, Tom, we're back and we had just finished up Delta Selection. You're on your team. You're getting ready to deploy. Where are you going?

• 2:27:42Speaker 06

  Yeah, so that first one that went to was Afghanistan. That was in the fall of O2. And we were on a, it was just a T S T, Time Sensitive Target Test Force that was there. So we just, if anything hot came up, we went and did it. So it was a lot of time on base. But my first mission in the unit was pretty, not anything glamorous on the end results, but I got a welcome to the party results of that is, so we were going without the whole story of the mission. It was, you know, hey, going to go get a bad guy, you know, and we kind of deal in that level of target set. And

• 2:28:26Speaker 06

  We loaded up and we had to get on one thirties and C one thirties and fly to another town. And so we get on in the back of these trucks. I'm in the back of this truck and I'm holding this, basically this big device. It's like a piece of plywood, two by fours, this whole sheet of plywood. You know what I mean? As far as, so I'm holding it in the back of this pickup truck going out to the C one thirty. This is going on the plane with us. And as soon as we get up to the airfield and take a right to head towards that, there's a C twenty-three, a German airplane sitting there. And as soon as we turned that way, um, he gases, as luck would happen, he gases that plane.

• 2:29:08Speaker 06

  So that whole sheet of plywood that I'm holding on to and holding down with the two by fours that I'm holding, of course, takes flight. And, uh, and that thing comes up, snaps my nose right here, big time, hits me in the cheek there and knocks me back. I mean, it's just like a big piece of plywood flies away, you know, like a piece of paper, except with me in the middle of it. And, uh, so it knocked me back and the other guys in the team back there, um, you know, I come to, set back up in the back of the pickup truck. I set back up and, and then, uh, I was like, this can't be happening. Like I just took a shot, you know what I mean? And there's blood already pouring out.

• 2:29:50Speaker 06

  I'm thinking it's mainly coming from out of my, I'm busting my nose before, you know? So it's like, man, it's coming out like, holy shit, everybody's gonna be coming to check on me like, there's no way I'm not going on this mission. You know what I mean? Like this is my first, this is my first one, like ever. My whole life has built up to this moment and I get hit with a two by four in the nose. So, so my two I see, um, he comes around to the front of me and I'm thinking that, uh, the blood's coming out of my nose, cause there's a lot on my kit. Coming out of my nose and he comes around and he's like, cause they seen it happen. You know, and he comes around, he's like, you all right? I'm like, yeah, I'm okay. I didn't know that the nasal artery had got cut right there. And it was like,

• 2:30:34Speaker 07

  Oh shit.

• 2:30:35Speaker 06

  Dumping blood out. And he's like, yeah, man, no, you're not. And I was like, oh man, no way. And then, uh, I was like, this isn't happening. There, there's no way that this is happening to me right now. And everybody else is loading the plane, you know, all the rest of the guys are loading up the plane. Some guys are coming by and so the medic comes up to me and, um, and he's like, look at me. I'm looking at him and he's like, and I'm starting to go like this. And he's like, look at me. And I'm like,

• 2:31:06Speaker 06

  I'm like, I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm okay. And I was like, I'm not okay, you know? And then I almost pass out, lay down, get my feet up, you know, just from the, the shock and the little bit of a blood loss thing.

• 2:31:19Speaker 06

  Elevating my feet. Meanwhile, everybody's loading up the plane. The dude's taking my shotgun off of me. You know what I mean? The dude's pulling charges out of my pants. You know what I mean? Cause obviously I'm not going, so gonna have to cover down. And I was like, there's no way this is happening, man. And, um, and so then I start feeling better, like I leveled back out and I set up and I was like, hey, Mike, I'm good. The medic, I'm like, hey, man, I'm good. He's like, yeah, Steve's got a blast off of you. You know what I mean? The P A guy that was there and he comes up, oh crusty dude, you know what I mean? A warrior and he's like, looks at me. He's like, you all right? And I'm like, yeah, I'm good. I'm totally, I'm good. And he's like, okay, get on the plane.

• 2:32:00Speaker 06

  And, uh, so I was like, get me out, grab my shotgun, you know, me go back getting my shit from everybody. And, uh, and man, it took a long time for that. I put some ice on it and, uh, just to get it to stop from bleeding. And then we did a full mission, you know, I mean, it was a regular, the mission was just a regular mission going after bad guys. But it was the first one, so it was, um, I didn't know how I would be, um, in combat sober.

• 2:32:30Speaker 06

  This is a new thing. You know, I didn't earn with a God in my life and all like, hey, how I'm gonna, I know what I was like when I was hateful, angry man with no God in life. Now, what am I? And I know a lot of that is still in me. I didn't change who I was. You know what I mean? It's like, um, so I was a little bit, a little concerned like, hey, am I gonna go too far? Am I gonna, you know, what's gonna happen? You know what I mean? I wasn't really afraid of it, but I hadn't experienced it yet, you know? And so, uh, we get on target. We do the target. It's a normal one. Good guys mixed with bad guys. We rolled up the bad guys. Didn't mess with the good guys. You know what I mean? So I was appropriate in my response to every single thing.

• 2:33:12Speaker 06

  And that particular one, no gunfire. We were on it super fast. Uh, a lot of hands-on stuff. Um, but I was absolutely appropriate, you know, when I applied force and when not to, when to be kind and, um, and then loaded everything up on the Chinooks. You know what I mean? Pulled the bad guys out of there with that. And that was under deficit. You know what I mean? I had lost a good amount of blood. I mean, my nose, man, was like literally crushed in from this side. I mean, it was, it was bad and, uh, I was so happy. Um, for a multitude of reasons, you know what I mean? Like, hey, I did my first wartime hit. You know what I mean? Like, that was super cool.

• 2:33:55Speaker 06

  And then, uh, like now I'm part of the war. You know what I mean? All this time, you know, once nine 11 happened, I'd never got to get my hands on somebody, you know? And so it was like all the way and then appropriately, professionally, you know, whatever that was. And I didn't go too far, which was good on the personal side. Cause like I said, I did have a little bit of concern like, am I just gonna be a rage monster? Or, cause that's what I was at one time in my life, you know? And it was like. So it's fine. I was like, yet again, it's just like, okay, man, trusting in God, you know what I mean, and doing what I'm supposed to be doing, it just makes me exactly who I need to be, you know, either merciful or merciless, you know what I mean?

• 2:34:37Speaker 06

  As long as I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing and handling my business appropriately, putting in the work, the spiritual, mental, emotional, all of it worked, you know what I mean? Hey, I'm gonna make some really good decisions, combat wise.

• 2:34:51Shawn Ryan?

  How did you mentally prepare for that first op? I mean, you only had two months with your

• 2:34:57Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:34:57Shawn Ryan?

  unit, with your guys before you deployed.

• 2:35:00Speaker 06

  I so just was so ready. I mean, it was like 11 years of mental preparation for it.

• 2:35:06Shawn Ryan?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:35:07Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? Again, being a seasoned kinda guy, it was, it was like, I didn't make light of it by any means, you know, when it was the real deal and it was in a foreign land and, you know, I mean, it was all of that. But it was, it was way more exciting than it was anything, you know what I mean? Like apprehension kinda was, like, man, I was just super, super excited, man. You know what I mean? About with these guys doing this stuff, like for our country

• 2:35:40Speaker 06

  and for my family, you know what I mean? Cause we seen what they can do to our families, you know what I mean? Cause that's, a lot of guys, we have the discussions of like, hey, you know, military

• 2:35:52Speaker 06

  always came before my family. And if, if you're not, and if someone who's in the military is not saying that, they're lying to themselves, you know what I'm saying? Because when the military calls, you have to answer that call. And it's a voluntary army, so, hey, I've chosen to place that ahead of my family. It's just the truth. And, but I believe that by doing that, that's how I'm protecting my family, you know, with the skill set that I have and the abilities. So, I mean, I would say by going and doing all those dangerous things is absolutely how I'm taking care of my family, you know, back at home, even though assuming all that risk.

• 2:36:29Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:30Speaker 06

  That.

• 2:36:30Shawn Ryan?

  So Tom, you have so many. Twelve deployments?

• 2:36:35Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:36:36Shawn Ryan?

  Over a thousand direct actions. We're not going to be able to cover all that.

• 2:36:40Speaker 06

  No, we will not.

• 2:36:42Shawn Ryan?

  So I want, I want to, we're going to jump around a little bit.

• 2:36:45Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 2:36:46Shawn Ryan?

  So with all of that experience and, and thousands of operations.

• 2:36:56Shawn Ryan?

  Let's talk about the first one where you engaged somebody.

• 2:37:01Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 2:37:01Shawn Ryan?

  Let's go right there. Where are you?

• 2:37:03Speaker 06

  The op was, well, the, the setup was is these guys were going to conduct attacks on Americans the next morning. Uh, through signal intelligence, they found out that they were loaded for bear, had, uh, bombs, had, uh, weaponry. And they were going to conduct, conduct attacks on Americans. Our job was to go in on helos and then ground assault. Just a simple land and sort it out. So whenever we landed, we landed, uh, real close, uh, couldn't quite land on an L, you know, but just because of the, due to the terrain. And as soon as we landed, um, I was in the, on this, this lead bird closest to the ropes.

• 2:37:45Speaker 06

  Uh, so on the tail end and the other bird was landing over this way. And so big thing in my mind was to be, and it was all night vision, was to be like looking for that first assaulter that came in my spread from the other bird. You know what I mean? Obviously what's going on in front. I got my guy to the left, but really like, cause I don't, I don't know where they're going to land. I don't know what angle they're going to come in on, but I need to see whenever one of our assaulters comes into my line of sight. So I got my mind on that piece, but dude ends up, they didn't have any weapons on them in the vehicle, which is weird. Like, so he, homie, we're getting off the bird and he goes around the back of the car, opens up the, like kind of the trunk.

• 2:38:29Speaker 06

  He has like bed rolls and stuff on, on top of all the guns. So he's doing all this and meanwhile we're just closing the, you know what I mean? Start closing the distance. We're just moving up because it's like. You know, his intel, you don't know if it's a hundred percent, you know, but got an idea of what he's doing. Then he gets everything that he needs out of the way and then he picks up. He gets picks up a PKM and because I know it because just the cut out handle on the side. And as soon as he cleared, I mean, it didn't even clear the. You know, the trunk well, but as soon as I seen that it was a weapon there in his hand. And that's whenever I started shooting him and it was clear as day for me as far as. Again, so much training, so much time and I was so hyper alert.

• 2:39:11Speaker 06

  Not so much on the situation with the guy, but because I was looking for my assaulter coming in. I was like super high alert, but I mean, it was like every dot, every, I mean, I knew where every single round was landing. You know, I mean, until everybody else came online and started shooting also, and then everybody got out. And it was a big gunfight at that point. Well, you know, I mean, they, they didn't get much shooting then, but we did kind of deal.

• 2:39:37Shawn Ryan?

  How many of them were there?

• 2:39:39Speaker 06

  Uh, there was one, two and one vehicle and three and another, so five total. But there was two teams, we're so eight guys on the ground, you know, I mean, it was over in 10 seconds, you know what I mean? They didn't get any rounds off on us and we knew it was the right one. But that was the first time that, you know, I mean, I had killed another human being. A hundred percent sure of me right then at that time.

• 2:40:04Shawn Ryan?

  So throughout the, throughout our interviews so far, you've, you've talked a lot about God. You've talked a lot about, uh, kind of, you know. Being merciful, mercifulness. It sounds like you have been. Almost concerned that you would. It would go out of control.

• 2:40:32Shawn Ryan?

  That you were gonna, you were gonna embrace this rage?

• 2:40:37Shawn Ryan?

  And it didn't, I mean, so how did it feel the first time?

• 2:40:41Speaker 06

  Man, nothing. Yeah, none. It was like I did my job, like finally, you know? Not like, oh my God, yeah, yeah, I killed, I'm not a sociopath, you know what I mean? So it's like, hey, my job as a warfighter, you know, I mean, as a, you know, I mean, hunter of men, you know, bad guys is like, okay, I finally just did my job. It was almost like a relief, like finally, you know what I mean? I like, I fulfilled my job description, not like, you know, a notch on the gun or like got my kill on, you know, none of that, but like pure professional and purely like, man, all right, I did my job.

• 2:41:22Shawn Ryan?

  As a Christian, did it, did it?

• 2:41:26Shawn Ryan?

  Did it affect you spiritually at all?

• 2:41:28Speaker 06

  None, none at all.

• 2:41:29Shawn Ryan?

  Was there any question, like?

• 2:41:30Speaker 06

  Zero.

• 2:41:31Shawn Ryan?

  What happens now?

• 2:41:32Speaker 06

  Yeah, no, uh-uh. I had none. I was super clear. Uh, so I wasn't one of the, uh, and I'll just categorize it, I'm kind of stereotyping, but I wasn't one of the crusader guys, right? Like Islam, Christianity, you know, some guys develop that crusader kind of bond. For me and my relationship with my God is, uh, and I am a Christian, but how my relationship works with is like, when I go to before my maker, uh, and I will, um, and I tell him what I'm done, I'm going to tell him that I murdered people. Cause murder defined is, you know, you had a plan and you executed the plan

• 2:42:16Speaker 06

  and you killed a human being. Like, uh, I believe that at 100% absolutely is necessary and I have my whys of why this human being needs to die and I killed them. But it's going to be up to him whether. He says, "Yeah or no" on it, you know what I mean? But I'm not gonna hide in some piece of the Bible that says, "It's okay that I kill other human beings because this says that." If that is the truth, cool, I win on that anyway, you know? But I'm not going before my God with some weak-ass shit about like, "Well, so-and-so taught me and I was raised," you know? But that's just my own personal belief. A lot of guys fully, you know, need to and understand and embrace that mindset.

• 2:43:00Speaker 06

  But no, without a doubt, this human being had met the criteria of being executed, you know? And I had, and I have never had a problem with that.

• 2:43:12Shawn Ryan?

  It's never affected you mentally?

• 2:43:14Speaker 06

  No, it has affected my humanity. Yeah, but as far as in my job description, doing the job,

• 2:43:24Speaker 06

  no thrill or glory of it and no, just, and it's like just the job, just the professional piece of it.

• 2:43:35Speaker 06

  But it, what was the question? I got lost.

• 2:43:39Shawn Ryan?

  Well, basically, what I was asking is, you know, a lot of guys, I think a lot of guys sometimes struggle with, with,

• 2:43:52Shawn Ryan?

  with that, you know, with, with, with, "Well, this just happened. Now there's no turning back," you know, and,

• 2:44:00Speaker 06

  Yeah, I know what you mean now. And it's, I never have, man. I never, and I'll expound on it. The only time that the killing got to me was whenever it started chipping away my humanity of it. But as far as-

• 2:44:16Shawn Ryan?

  What do you mean by that?

• 2:44:18Speaker 06

  Yeah, so what I mean by that is, my belief system is, is I really, after all that I've learned about humans and spirituality and everything, like, hey, man, we're not, we're not, we're not meant to harm one another's. We're not. We're not meant to do that. We're meant to be social, meant to procreate, you know what I mean? And provide for one another, you know what I'm saying? Like-

• 2:44:43Speaker 06

  I believe that at our core, that's what it is. However, we also know that humans are humans and, you know what I mean, and war has been forever. And people, some people just need to be killed. You know, like, I don't really know how to describe it. So nine eleven, right? Nine eleven happens. Our country, collective decision was a reckoning. Like, they killed us. Y'all go kill them. As a nation. I mean, there were some folks that, humanitarians, that, you know, understood peace and that kind of stuff. But, you know, I mean, that's what we all went and did. And that's the job description. But this is what I learned throughout all the deployments and, I mean, I've killed a good amount of

• 2:45:28Speaker 06

  people. Is that when a human being that takes another human being's life, and they're not a sociopath or a psychopath, it chips away at the humanity. And I'll just use I statement, because I don't want to impose anything that I'm saying on any other veteran or any other person. This is only on me. Is that over the years, and over the deployments, and over the amount of times done, the humanity starts going away. Meaning, it's, what am

• 2:46:08Speaker 06

  I trying to say with that? It's easier for me to be hard, a little calloused around my heart, as far as lose the humanity of it.

• 2:46:19Shawn Ryan?

  I understand what you're saying.

• 2:46:20Speaker 06

  Yeah, where I'm not looking at this person, like, I'm looking at this as a person until I PID them, and now they're not a person. You know, or, you know, they're demonstrating a threat. Now they're not a person. However, they are a person. And as a human being, taking another human being's life, in my experience, there was a toll on me, because I am a human being.

• 2:46:48Speaker 06

  And over that amount of time, you know what I mean, it's just chipped away and chipped away and chipped away. So I got more calloused, more kind of hardened.

• 2:47:00Speaker 06

  Yeah. And then add TBI to that, which is part of the story we'll get to, you know, I mean, it turned, you know, it turned. But that was what I mean about the humanity piece of it. But I fully get back to me being a realist, man, like war is hell. Like they didn't just come up with that slogan. You know what I'm saying? Like that was come from the generations that experienced it, man. All the innocents that dies, all of the, I mean, that's war. Like there is, that's war. That's what we're signing up to do is war. Then we experience it. And then we get to decide whether we want to experience it again or not.

• 2:47:41Speaker 06

  The most comfortable I've ever been in my life is in war.

• 2:47:47Speaker 06

  That is, with all the horror, with all the stuff that I hate, with all the stuff that I love, me as a warrior, as a human being, and the God given gifts and the training that I've done and put on this planet, man, there's the time whenever I would feel home the most, man, is whenever I was making that walk at the Balad Airport, you know, from the plane, going to get our gear to disperse to wherever we were deployed to on Iraq, man. It was like, and there's a why behind it, you know what I mean? I mentioned, number one, it's what I was built to do, it's what I'm wired to do, it's what I've wanted to

• 2:48:28Speaker 06

  do by choice. And man, just the aspects of it, the rules are clear, crystal clear. There's no easier living, meaning decision making to me in ever than in war. It's kill or be killed, man. It's, you're trying to kill me, I'm trying to kill you. Whoever doesn't die, you know what I mean, today, you know, wins this round. And it's just so clear.

• 2:48:57Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think you ever became addicted to it?

• 2:49:01Speaker 06

  Yeah, I did, man. Once I got sideways with it after I got my TBI and stuff. Yeah, I got sideways with it because something had broken in my head too, man. There was a little bit of factors. But then I got to the point, like, like I said, it was super professional for a long time and then oh six, you know what I mean? Whenever I got my TBI. Then it became personal. And that's, and that's whenever there was a little bit of soul sickness that happened with me. Again, it was still done correctly, but it, the intent behind it had changed. You know, it was, it was, it was a lot more personal. And that was more damaging to my person.

• 2:49:43Speaker 06

  Later on, not at the time, but to your point of like addicted to it. Like, it's like, yeah, there was one point, even said it to my brother.

• 2:49:53Speaker 06

  Whenever we were driving down the road, coming back from a meeting in between deployments, as I've said to him, he's like, I don't remember which deployment it was, eight or nine or one in between. And he's just, he's just like, hey, man, how

• 2:50:08Speaker 06

  how are you gonna keep going, man? You know? And I was like, what? Like, I'm not gonna stop. You know what I mean? Like, they're doing it, I'm doing it. My team's doing it, I'm doing it. And then I thought about it more. And then I told him at that time in my life, which was probably oh eight, oh nine, near the end, is like, hey, man, the only time I feel anything in life is when I'm in a gunfight. And then I looked over at him and he said,

• 2:50:36Speaker 06

  he's had tears running down his face. And I looked at him and I was like, fuck. You know, and then he's like, man, something's changed.

• 2:50:47Speaker 06

  Like, something's wrong, man. Like, that's wrong. Like, I should be able, I mean, I have a wonderful family. I have a, I have all of this wonderful stuff in my life. And the only thing, what I just said was the truth. And that was the only time I feel anything is whenever I'm in a gunfight.

• 2:51:05Speaker 06

  Yeah, and I knew that something had changed.

• 2:51:08Shawn Ryan?

  Do you understand why that, why that is?

• 2:51:12Speaker 06

  Completely.

• 2:51:13Shawn Ryan?

  What is it?

• 2:51:14Speaker 06

  So, everything was professional, you know what I mean, throughout, man. I was pro, unbothered. Really tough times, lost some guys, you know what I mean, like dealt with a whole lot of things. But the things that I began to have to deal with wasn't the killing. You know, it wasn't, wasn't what war, the thing that I was completely and totally unprepared for and fucking crushed me was caring for wounded American soldiers. Like, that, that was, that was what got me.

• 2:51:48Speaker 06

  And so, like, um, so, and there was really, and thank God I was there. I mean, I always think, cause I mean, the level of, uh, medical, trauma, medical experience, you know, that we have, I mean, working on live tissue, like, we were more experienced than most medics, you know? And, uh, so, but I would be in these three different situations that were mass casualty events to some different degree. The first one was in oh four. Whenever, um, we were out with conventional guys and, um, and it was, uh, you know, there was, one got killed and eight of them were wounded, and which is me and another operator providing medical support to them. And their medic, who was psychologically checked out at the time,

• 2:52:30Speaker 06

  not, not as a negative comment, but, you know, I mean, he had the, the freeze mode, fight, fight, freeze. He was just stuck in freeze for a little while. So, we were working and then he ended up, came to. So, I was working on Americans during that time and it was just, uh, just the feeling of it, you know what I mean? And their blood on my hands and stuff. It was like, hmm. That was the reality of war to me, was American blood.

• 2:52:55Speaker 06

  And then the second one got a little bit even more intimate, um, was oh four timeframe. I had a lot of significant emotional events in oh four.

• 2:53:04Shawn Ryan?

  What was, was that the invasion of Fallujah?

• 2:53:07Speaker 06

  That was part of it. That was one of them. Uh, so in oh four, which it ties into what we're talking about. So, it won't, it won't derail us too much. So, in, in oh four, you know, that's when everything changed. You know, oh three time, we were chasing the deck. Everybody's chasing the deck, you know? And now the deck's gone, or mostly gone, all the big boys are gone. And now they're talking about these foreign fighters, you know, it's like, fuck is that? We're chasing the death, you know what I mean? And during that timeframe, other than the guys on the initial invasion, that was a lot of war that they fought, you know? And then, then there was just pockets of it though after that, you know? And a lot of times we were running around the country like with impunity. You know what I mean?

• 2:53:51Speaker 06

  Like we're doing whatever we wanted, how we wanted and not really, you know, really getting into like hammered by it. There was no, there was no IEDs at that time either. That was a new thing, you know what I mean? That, that was new. So oh four, the whole war had changed, even though it was Iraq, back to Iraq. And, um, you know, that was when they just, my, one of my deployments started whenever, uh, they hung up the Blackwater guys, you know, when they first hung those guys up. That was when our trip first kind of started. We were in Ramadi and, um, and so that's where we were. So, uh, prior to, um, the first battle of Fallujah, uh, we were in Ramadi doing different stuff.

• 2:54:36Speaker 06

  And then there was, uh, there was a mass casualty event. So we're, uh, at our little base that we were at. The big base was called Junction City. There was a big marine base, you know, is all that in Ramadi. And then they came over the radio, it's like, hey, anybody with medical training, come to the cache at Junction City. You know, it was like, fuck, all right. You know, so we go over there and, um, and the, but there's the surreal kind of stuff, you know, is like, okay, they're calling for everybody. That's a full up cache, like it's a running cache already. Like it's, it's a something ginormous. Figured they brought in a convoy or something, you know? Cause you normally hear mortar fire and shit. I mean, it's Ramadi in oh four, man, and it's hot.

• 2:55:20Speaker 06

  And, um, so we're going over there. We don't really know what has happened. We're supposed to be going to the cache, but we come by this big open field. Look across this open field and, uh, and there's, there's a small crater there. And then there's three dudes, uh, one guy, he's dead, you know? And the, the one guy, of course, is his best friend or buddy who's doing CPR on him. Uh, and then there's somebody, the medic, you know, that was just allowing him to continue to do that, cause that was obvious, obviously his best friend.

• 2:55:57Speaker 06

  And uh, cause he's dead as shit. And um, so we go running up there and it was like, uh, and we had one, a unit medic with us, you know, um, and we actually had a, a few surgeons that were traveling with us. So we had like, God had placed a dream team for this event on top of what they already had. I'm talking like, almost three surgeons were with us, you know? So that goes down. So we see that and our medic, he understood what was going on. Like this guy couldn't stop doing that because that's his buddy. Like he's gonna die before he stops doing that. So he grabbed him, you know, and he's like, hey, man, he's dead. Like, I'm a medic, you know what I mean? You know, and then he was, and then the other medic took over. Hey, where's everybody else?

• 2:56:42Speaker 06

  Because this is not what they needed. Everybody, it's like, everything else is at the cache. And we still hadn't known what had happened. We didn't know what had happened. So what happened is, um, they were getting ready to do a big convoy, like to Baghdad or wherever they were going. Uh, they were, you know, on base, you know, in a protected area, somewhat protected area. And they were gonna do a convoy brief. They bring everybody in, right? They were giving a convoy brief with like 50 vehicles. I mean, they were a shit ton of dudes. So there's like 60 people in a, you know, corralled up in a small group. And then 82 millimeter mortar lands perfectly in the middle of them.

• 2:57:23Speaker 06

  Perfectly in the middle of them. They couldn't make it up. And they didn't have most, you know, they appropriately didn't have their armor on, a lot of them, because they didn't need it. You know what I mean? Like they're in the, you know, I mean, they're where they're, they can be. So it destroyed them. So there, when we got to the cache and we made the corner and came back around, there's 32 dudes laid out, bleeding out. Probably at least 10 of them are like bleeding out right now. Uh, there's already about half an inch of blood on the whole little concrete pad that we were on, on the back of this little building. And man, and it's uh it's summertime, you know what I mean? It's hot.

• 2:58:09Speaker 06

  Um, or springtime is still hot as shit. And so we come back there and we're like, wow, over like just start working. You know what I mean? So we just immediately start plugging holes and everything. There's, I mean, it was a huge event, you know, by three guys that already died. I mean, it was so much that thirty two guys got medically evac'd out. So not just little ones here, they were like, we put them on chenooks, thirty two of them, like that level of. So that was like, and you know, mass casually defined as there's more wounded than there is folks that can help the wounded, you know, and um, so of course, you know, everybody went to work.

• 2:58:48Speaker 06

  Um, it was, it was, you know, we just all went to work, plugging holes, tying stuff off, stick, I mean, everybody, we were just all working. And then all these little, I mean, you experienced them too, all these little surreal things that would happen. Um, so guys that were on the gurney that were bleeding, bleeding a lot. And it was super hot outside, you know, and dripping blood, dripping blood. And then there's this like stalagmite of coagulated blood, you know, and then this little stalagite of coagulated blood. And you know, just looking at going, fuck is that? You know, and so it's just like the odd things is what always hang me up and. So we were constantly working for a few hours and then uh it turned into, it should have been a selection event, you know, I mean, as hard as that was and almost passing out,

• 2:59:33Speaker 06

  chugging water and um, so everything calmed down, you know, so emotions aside, everything calmed down.

• 2:59:41Speaker 06

  And uh, so we started cleaning up, right? Now it's to clean up the whole, I mean, it's just all the blood everywhere, got the guys out, you know what I mean? And um, so we're cleaning it up. And then I just had this overwhelming, I started tripping out a little bit, like now the emotions, you know, I mean, are welling up in me, man of. If I just didn't want, um, I just didn't want their blood to soak into that fucking ground, you know what I mean, in that place, you know, so I was like scooping it up, doing all this stuff and nurse comes over, you know, and she's, you know, been around, sees his nurse and she sees I'm kinda got a little bit of something going on, you know, and she's like, hey, what are you doing? I was like, yeah, I'm cleaning. She's like, okay,

• 3:00:26Speaker 06

  need any help? Nope. Okay. So I keep cleaning, you know what I mean? And then I'm, then I start getting weird with it, you know what I mean? Like I got a scrub brush, you know, like trying to get up little micro pieces of, and there's like puddles of blood everywhere else, you know what I mean? So I'm like, it's just my mind trying to protect itself from the amount of emotion that is, that is overwhelming me at this time, you know? So I'm, I'm dripping out pretty good and I'm just trying to clean the blood, clean the blood, clean the blood. Nurse comes over again, she's like, hey, look up at her and she's like, like, yeah, what? You know, she's like, what are you doing? I'm cleaning up, like I said before. She said, I know. And she said, and you're done with that now?

• 3:01:10Speaker 06

  Uh, because what's happening next is we're gonna bring that fire truck over here, we use the water hose and we're gonna wash all this blood down, cause we're gonna get ready to have to do this again. You understand? Like, Roger that. So I got up and I was okay, you know? But it affected me, man. That was the first thing. And I was like, no, four, you know, it really affected me. It was a big, I wasn't prepared, like all the things that we talked about, prepared for. I was not prepared to deal with wounded American soldiers. Um, you know, mauled, mangled, you know what I mean? Like all of that piece. Um, that was the first thing. And then the other kinda aspects of significant emotion.

• 3:01:52Shawn Ryan?

  How long did it take you to rebalance?

• 3:01:55Speaker 06

  Pretty quick, man. It was like, cause it was, uh, me and a couple of my buddies on the same team, we're together doing that piece and, um, and then our other teammates there. Um, so we got back, you know, we talked, he's like, man, that was fucked up, right? You know, and I was like, man, yeah. And he's like, are you okay? You know what I mean? Yeah, I'm okay. You all right? I'm like, man, I don't know. I mean, that was a lot, man. That was like, wow, you know, and so we were kind of processing. That was the thing about me being sober was is like, I did not, I did not have the benefit of medication, you know, meaning external, whether that was with booze, you know, and again, not judging anybody that that did their thing that way, like, but I just couldn't, man. So I, I mean, I had to do

• 3:02:40Speaker 06

  a lot of writing, a lot of praying, a lot of talking, you know, but my connection to reality and war, you think that's the funniest, like, because you know, I've been sober quite a long time at that point, and I was sponsoring a lot of guys, but I'd be in Iraq on an Iridium phone, like calling my sponsors, checking on them, seeing how they're doing, like, hey, but fuck you going to meetings? Like, hey, you sponsoring the, you know, I mean, I'd be digging into them, man, of like, well, what's happening? You know what I mean? But that was my touch back to reality, because there wasn't a lot of guys that I could talk to on the levels that I needed to talk to. I mean, I had the best of friends that would have done anything for me, but we were just on different paths in life, you know,

• 3:03:24Speaker 06

  spiritually or whatever. So, so I would always continue to do that. So we would process it some, even though we didn't call it that, it would be at least we'd kind of talk about it a little bit and kind of AAR it, you know what I mean? And, but it wasn't too awful at that point in time. But then some things started stacking up, you know, so then it was like, then we're at the first Battle of Fallujah.

• 3:03:47Shawn Ryan?

  Hold on, hold on.

• 3:03:48Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:03:49Shawn Ryan?

  How's, I mean, are you telling your wife any of this stuff?

• 3:03:54Speaker 06

  No. So the

• 3:03:56Shawn Ryan?

  What are you telling her?

• 3:03:58Speaker 06

  So my wife and I, like, that's why I'm so, you know, a husband and wife's dynamic is so special and so different between every single one of us, you know? So my wife and I are pretty freaking tough people, you know, as, as human beings. She's probably way, not probably, she's way tougher than I am. And so, and we've never been the kind of folks where, where

• 3:04:26Speaker 06

  Where we share our whole worlds to one another. You know what I mean? It just, uh, we've always had this wonderful, great communication, honesty, respectful. We communicate what needs to be communicated. But like she, I didn't want her to know certain things about me. And she didn't want to know him either because she doesn't want to think any differently of me. And I don't want her to think any differently. More than likely she wouldn't.

• 3:04:51Shawn Ryan?

  When you say things, do you mean what was happening over there?

• 3:04:55Speaker 06

  Yeah. Whether it was, uh, so here's an example because it happened to us one night. You know, we're laying in bed and, and I told her, I was like, hey, I'm going through a lot, you know, just from the deployment, just kinda, you know, but I'm hitting my meetings. I'm talking to my guys and, you know, I mean, I'm working, I'm getting the process because we don't get into each other's business. She has her girls that she handles her stuff with and I have my guys and what we need to talk about together, we talk about together and, uh, but this is how when we realized that, yeah, we're never gonna get it right between the two of us is, uh, so we're sitting in bed and I'm going through a lot of stuff and, and she's thinking that, oh, this, you know, I told her, it was, hey, deployment, you know, and, um, she's like, man, he probably feels

• 3:05:38Speaker 06

  really bad because he had to kill people, right? And I, you know what I mean? That's not the truth, you know? And then I, and for me, I'm feeling super bad because the guys, the injured guys, you know, wounded Americans, you know what I mean? That's what I was trying to reconcile, you know, I mean, was war and this is part of war and like peace and all that stuff together that no one had talked about us yet. And so she finally just came out with it and said like, hey, I know you're upset. I know you don't want to talk about it, but I want you to know it's okay. And I know that you're upset because you had to kill people. And I started laughing and she's like, What? I'm like, what? I'm like, what are you talking about? And she's like, what are you talking about?

• 3:06:21Speaker 06

  And I was like, no, I don't feel bad about it at all. And she's like, well, I don't need to know that. And I was like, okay, so here's our rules moving forward. We won't talk about what happens unless it's necessary for us to talk about them, you know? So that's our little dynamic. So a lot of, a lot of the stuff, like Lori won't even watch a lot of this. You know what I mean? I was like, hey, some of it's about-

• 3:06:43Shawn Ryan?

  Still to this day.

• 3:06:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, because she doesn't need to. She doesn't want to. She has no desire. She doesn't care. It's not, and she's not impressed. You know what I'm saying? She's, uh, she's always been my grounding agent. You know what I mean? She's been what's connected me to reality, true reality, not what I may believe reality is at the time, you know? So yeah, she has, she has no interest. Like there was a lot, a lot of times, like see me in training, teaching guys or talking about teaching guys. She's like, wow, I didn't know you knew that, you know? And I'm like, yeah, I kind of know stuff about this, you know? It's a big joke with us, but she's always been my, that's why she's my person, man.

• 3:07:25Speaker 06

  Yeah, it wouldn't be, wouldn't, wouldn't have made it through all that stuff then and now. Yeah. So that, but it started, I think the kind of a theme that I've seen with, with some others, not, not everyone, is there's, uh, for me, it was an accumulation effect. That's when I talked about that chip in a way of the humanity piece. You know, so I was, you know, it was more war, you know, and it was real and it was intense. And there was a lot of gunfights, man. It was a lot of really messed up stuff. Um, all the way, especially bloody oh five into oh six, and then in oh six, was where it all changed for me. Um, short version of the mission is, is that we-

• 3:08:08Shawn Ryan?

  No short version.

• 3:08:10Speaker 06

  Well, the opsec wise, short version is we were on a three day mission with a conventional unit. Um, this team that I was, I was, it wasn't my team. It was all guys that I knew. Uh, but they were short at two I C and they needed me to come with them on this three day op. And it was in, uh, they called it the triangle of death. Mahmoudia, Yusefia, just south of Baghdad. It was a southern foreign fighter pipeline. And that's when we had just lost a guy, you know, the trip before they'd shot down three or four helicopters. I mean, it was, it was on. Um.

• 3:08:42Speaker 06

  So we wanted to clean up that area. Um, it's full of foreign fighters and um, so it was good. And uh, this, this uh, this battalion, so it was a battalion operation. Uh, and we were just there to augment and assist. And um, and we had sniper, our sniper team. And um, I was a two IC, had a team leader and two other dudes. So four of us. And um, so we're this conventional unit doing battalion ops. I mean, it was textbook, you know, like companies out, you know, mortars in the back, fire support, blocking positions, you know, I mean, it was like textbook. It's kind of epic in this shitty area. But it was also a kind of a setup, like they knew that we were coming, you know, and um, and those

• 3:09:27Speaker 06

  were real fighters, you know, that are there. That's where they had um, so old Russian power plant where they had uh, mangled the hundred and first guys that got um, that they mangled them all up. Remember they captured them and that was that same area. Okay. Same bridges, same places where they found them. So we were in that area. And we're helping them out with uh, uh, fires and all the different stuff. But we also got a sniper, you know, duties that we're doing. Well, man, we're taking like, easy 20 rounds, probably more, but minimal, like 20 rounds of mortar fire within a hundred meter radius of the position that we're at. You know what I mean? Like, it's damn near

• 3:10:11Speaker 06

  down, you know, I mean, they're just walking it, adjusting fire on each one. And it's along the, you know, along the river. So it's all that single canopy jungle, you know, where they're firing the mortars from. So you get, companies are going out looking for them and that kind of stuff. So, so we're sitting there eating all these rounds. And in this area that we're at is our, our sniper position. And um, and then you got the rest of battalion is out doing ops, headquarters is in an area, but the mortars are at near our position. So you've got the, the mortar tubes are there and the mortar gun teams and the, in this little trailer, there's a pre-existing structure that was there, but it's literally a single wide trailer that's there. Um, the, the FDC guys, mobile ballistic

• 3:10:56Speaker 06

  computers, you know what I mean? The mortars, uh, the mortar guys, they're in that trailer. Um, cause they're running fire missions out of there. They're dropping, you know, mortars for the uh, teams that are out. We're just doing that. So we eat all those rounds and we go and talk to the command because they were friends of ours. The guys were like, hey, they're dialing that position in, man, we, number one, we're not staying there. Like, uh, we're, and number two is like, hey, let's, um, let's, you don't have to have that position. Like, we can cover that bridge, you know what I mean, back from over here. And they made the decision to, to keep guys there. And I don't fault them for it because it's conventional guys, you know, conventional

• 3:11:41Speaker 06

  mindset, kind of die-in-place positions. You know what I mean? It's just, I understand it. I don't fault them for it at all. I'm BSing with a couple of the dudes and, um, you know, we're all kitted up. Everybody's doing what they're supposed to be doing. And, uh, you know, and man, then mortar, 82 millimeter mortar round lands 20 yards from me. And it landed in the trailer between the FDC guys, right in between the two of them, right there. That mortar round landed right there in between them.

• 3:12:13Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 3:12:14Speaker 06

  Um, so, um, these two guys are hit. So, I mean, it's super close. Got blown off my feet, broken wrist, uh, knocked out for don't know how short or how long, um, but didn't come to. Uh, and then when I come to, there's nothing but, you know, I mean, I mean, we ate the round, you know, so it's just nothing but dirt and dust and smoke and fire. Because you know, you ever seen a single-wide trailer? Like, a single-wide trailer burned from end to end within about seven minutes. You know what I mean? So that thing was already on fire, cooking. And, um, but then I come to and I look around, you realize like what has happened.

• 3:12:59Speaker 06

  And then, man, the screams start. You know, I mean, as far as the guys screaming, a sound that I'd, no one had ever prepared me for, and that I'd never heard anybody talk about. Um, now, I'd heard enemy screaming before. Um, different, uh, right, wrong, or indifferent, it's different to me. Um, but it was Americans, men screaming and making sounds that grown men shouldn't make, you know? And so it was like, all right, what, overwhelmed, and something's wrong. Like, I mean, I knew it just got blowed up, you know, so, uh, I was like, okay, whatever. So there's a fire, and I mean, I re- I know what had happened, like, holy shit, it hit the guys.

• 3:13:44Speaker 06

  I knew there was four guys in that, in that thing. So it's on fire, all their gears are in there. I mean, they're fully kitted out, combat Lotus, so cook-offs are about to start. Um, there's all kinds of, um, you know, uh, not primed, I can't think of the word, live mortar rounds, eighty ones, you know, setting right there to be in the tube. They're prepped, ready to launch, you know what I mean? Fused up, ready to go. And so I'm pulling these guys, uh, these guys out, because there's not, again, back to not really any medics around. And we got two guys that are up on the gun, uh, me and another operator are down there working, and all the other guys are, are working in pockets of different dudes and, um, yeah, man, and it was, so just start working.

• 3:14:27Speaker 06

  I end up putting like, you know, four tourniquets on, you know, three different guys. I mean, they were bad, blow, blown up, you know, and, um, and I'm just, man, I'm not, something's wrong. Um, and so, anyway, doing all of, all of that stuff. But what had happened in that moment, uh, when I'm going through it, and all the emotions that are going through me and my mind, uh, that has now received a traumatic brain injury, because I can trace my life up to September the first of two thousand and six, what my life was like before that, and my life would have been after that.

• 3:15:08Speaker 06

  So, but during that time, everyone that I knew had been blown up, but to some degree, you know, and, uh, so I didn't think of nothing of it. But, um, at that time, what happened too, that was my third mass casualty event. And it, uh, so I had something broken in my head, but also, man, my heart like broke into a million pieces.

• 3:15:32Speaker 06

  And then those million pieces broke into a million pieces, man, I was devastated. Um, and the reason why I was devastated is because when we were around the conventional guys, especially like we were like Big Brother. You know what I mean? Hey, we're around, everybody feels better. Like, hey, man, we're like, oh, fuck, dudes are here, like, we're, we're all right, you know? And I loved that. I mean, that's who I want to be, you know? But I had a, just a little bit of distorted thinking and, and, you know, misconception that like I could actually protect them. It's unrealistic expectation, but my job was to, my job was to protect American soldiers, especially the ones that were around me.

• 3:16:16Speaker 06

  And so now for the third time, I had failed to do that. So to what does a protector do when he's failed to protect that which matters the most? Cause deployed status, my loyalty chain is American soldiers, um, number one.

• 3:16:35Speaker 06

  And I can't protect them. I have, uh, I have failed in that mission. So it was devastating, man. And then everything and whatever else was going on inside of me now with a broken decision maker, you know, and the executive functioning of my brain.

• 3:16:53Speaker 06

  So it, it was, uh, the big heroes, you know, of, of, of that day, man, was, uh, cause then the whole time, they were packing the guys up, dead guys packaged up. It's daylight still, man. Those, those birds aren't coming. This is the triangle of death.

• 3:17:10Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:17:11Speaker 06

  They call it because the helicopters have been shot down. It's like, man, but I know we're just going through the motions to keep the morale up for as long as we can. You know what I mean? Cause how it affects wounded soldiers, you know what I mean? Like, hey, you got it, hang in there.

• 3:17:26Speaker 06

  And, uh, man, and just sitting there and then next thing you know.

• 3:17:34Speaker 06

  Fuck.

• 3:17:37Speaker 06

  Yeah. Like, I'm, I mean, I was just like dumping of emotion, man, because I just, I had already accepted that, I'd already got into the mission planning of like how we're gonna talk through this out, like why they're not coming and like, hey, you know, how we're, I was trying to problem solve of like how we're gonna keep morale up, because they're not fucking coming. So I was already way down that road and, and then they started coming in, man, and it was just overwhelming, man, because that was, at that moment, at that time, in that place, the most dangerous thing any humans could ever do. And I guarantee you that they got asked if they wanted to do that mission. Because no one, that was a no-fly zone. Yeah. Period, end of story, that's it. And so they came in, man, and they came in and

• 3:18:22Speaker 06

  landed, and, uh, you know, we loaded the guys up, went back. Um, so obviously, super intense, but that wasn't the end of it. Uh, so then, uh, so I'm like hurting physically, you know, now, and then all of that emotion's going off, and then all of those screams just on repeat in my head, and I failed at protecting, you know what I mean? I'm hap, you know what I mean? All of that is just like on me, in me and through me. And so, hey, we, we switch out with the guys on the tower, and some of the guys that we switched out on the tower was a guy I went to Q course with, you know, and, um, so we switch out

• 3:19:02Speaker 06

  with that, so they're there. So here we are in our new position, September the 2nd. Um, so that was September the 1st when that happened. September the 2nd, we were talking about dates and numbers earlier, right? My sobriety date is September the 2nd of 92. This is September the 2nd of 2006, right? So, uh, so at one of the most, so I'm sitting there on that tower, so happy to be alive, right? I mean, like, whoa, I'm so happy to be alive and with the same conviction, felt like...

• 3:19:47Speaker 06

  I felt like such a coward for being that happy about being alive when all these others had died and all these other families had just lost their loved ones and I'm happy about being alive. Logically, I know that doesn't make sense, but in that moment, in that time, it was just overwhelming. So this miraculously beautiful day for me, meaning my sobriety day, you know what I mean? And everything that had come from that time, from then to now, now that same date is this date, you know? And shortly after the sun came up, another mortar round landed right where my rucksack was, where those

• 3:20:29Speaker 06

  new guys that from the tower we had just switched off, two more dead, more injured, more birds coming in on my sobriety day. Shit. Yeah, man. So it was a lot. So back to how do you recover, you know, how do you get back in the game? You know what I mean? Like, okay, I've just failed at my mission of protecting American soldiers. Well, you either quit, which I'm not going to quit. So then how do I reconcile it? It's like, okay, if I can't protect them from a defensive kind of posture, it's like, if there's not any bad guys to harm them, then they can't

• 3:21:11Speaker 06

  be harmed. So my next, from that moment to my last deployment in 2009, was about as killing as many of them as could be, or capturing as many as you could, but get them out of the game, you know what I mean? Because they can't hurt the others. But that's when it got personal, you know? And as I said, I had an undiagnosed untreated TBI, which meant that my executive functioning and, you know, and from a physiological level, I was no longer processing, you know, chemicals right, you know, at that time. So from that time on, it became personal.

• 3:21:52Speaker 06

  And I was really good at it, you know, which was another really trippy thing. I didn't think too long about it. Again, we talked about my beliefs and I trust that my God is going to put me exactly where I need to be, when I need to be there, all that stuff. And it was a little bit trippy, right? Because it was, I was ate up with it. Like I would do, um, all the target, a lot of the target packets, you know what I mean? I'm putting them together on the intel side of the house and I geeked out over that stuff too, man. I was a total nerd. And so I would get in on the targeting aspects of it and then obviously get in on the hits. Then I, then I did the battlefield interrogations too. So I mean, start to finish, I was working the whole target to set up more targets.

• 3:22:34Speaker 06

  Like that's, that was my life and I loved it and I was good at it. And, um, and one of the weird things that I didn't study on too much is, is that, and it just is a testament to the power of my God, you know what I mean? It's like I'm one person, right? One brain, doing these things. And in one aspect of my life, say a guy that I'm sponsoring, you know, through the 12 steps and in sobriety, my job is to, uh, help them build their spirit up. You know what I mean? Cause they're crushed. Like how do I build them? You mean assist in building them as a, as a man, as a human, their spirit, you know, everything. And I was doing that and I'm good at that. And, uh, and then in the other field,

• 3:23:20Speaker 06

  my job is to break this man's spirit.

• 3:23:25Speaker 06

  The complete opposite. And I'm really good at that too. It's like, how do those two things coexist? I don't know. I just say my prayers. I show up to work and I do what's in front of me, you know, and, um, but I was, the thing is, is that, um, that now tying that back into like, that's what the thing of what changed it for the war and back to the humanity aspect of it, started really being effective. Cause it was personal. None of my actions were the same. It wasn't like all of a sudden I started running around killing people, you know what I mean? Cause that wasn't the case.

• 3:23:58Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:23:58Speaker 06

  It was just the intent, you know, was so much different. And then, you know, I mean, it's 2006, I probably did-

• 3:24:05Shawn Ryan?

  Cause you find yourself.

• 3:24:10Shawn Ryan?

  Anticipating more?

• 3:24:12Speaker 06

  Meaning?

• 3:24:14Shawn Ryan?

  Like hoping that they make?

• 3:24:18Shawn Ryan?

  We talked about your first engagement.

• 3:24:20Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:24:21Shawn Ryan?

  It was very...

• 3:24:23Speaker 06

  Hoping they'd vote to shoot?

• 3:24:25Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:24:26Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, cuz it was the whole thing, I mean, me and, and, and a lot of, a lot of us warriors that...

• 3:24:35Shawn Ryan?

  Do what I, it's, it's...

• 3:24:36Speaker 06

  At that time, then it was...

• 3:24:37Shawn Ryan?

  Please do what I need you to do.

• 3:24:39Speaker 06

  Yes, so we can get back to normal gameplay. Back to the rules, the rules of war. That's what we would always say is like, man, would somebody please just start shooting? You know? Because prior to the shots being fired, you know, it's kind of like that Terminator screen, like, you know, you're looking and there's 10 things coming to your mind. Your processes and everything, is it a threat? Is it not a threat? Is it a... You know what I mean? You're like, it is, it is consuming, you know what I mean? Just making, looking at the team, looking at movement, where are we on nav? You know what I mean? All of that stuff. And then they start shooting, it's like,

• 3:25:14Speaker 06

  now we all know the rules.

• 3:25:15Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:25:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, so it would, it would just be, uh, but not in a, but even with me, like wanting that to happen, it wasn't this viciousness of, it was just like, hey, man, let's vote quicker, let's get on, let's, let's get the gameplay going.

• 3:25:32Shawn Ryan?

  You know, you vote faster.

• 3:25:34Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:25:35Shawn Ryan?

  What does that mean?

• 3:25:37Speaker 06

  Meaning that, like, if they were gonna, whatever the trigger was to meet the rules of engagement, uh, which, you know, all that changed depending on the level of intel, if they were physically on target, that may meet the trigger for engagement, or if they had weapons, or it was the demonstration, you know, how they moved the, you know, aggressively kind of piece. So it was just the want for it to go to whatever way it was going to fast enough, either come out quicker, or...

• 3:26:05Shawn Ryan?

  Is that an individual vote? Or a team vote?

• 3:26:10Speaker 06

  You mean a US guy side?

• 3:26:12Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:26:12Speaker 06

  I'm talking about them voting, the bad guy side.

• 3:26:15Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 3:26:16Speaker 06

  No, I'm talking about the bad guys voting. Yeah, no, team wise, we were always on the same, on the same thing. Cause everybody was in alignment with the ROE. You know what I mean? So if, and if the ROE was dependent on, I mean, some missions where you were, you know, were kill targets. You know what I mean? Where it's like, oh, if they're on target, PID, that's the trigger. You know what I mean? If it was, if they have guns, they have guns, trigger. If it was, they need to be shooting at us, then it needs to be, you know what I mean? So per ROE, whatever that was, we wanted them to vote quicker. You know what I mean? Like to get on, let's, let's get on with it so we can get on to the next mission.

• 3:26:51Shawn Ryan?

  You're the only unit that I've heard that uses that term.

• 3:26:55Speaker 06

  What?

• 3:26:56Shawn Ryan?

  Vote.

• 3:26:57Speaker 06

  Oh, really?

• 3:26:57Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, I've heard, I've heard several, I've interviewed several of you guys now and, and I've just, I've not heard the term before.

• 3:27:06Speaker 06

  Yeah, because we're willing to go, I mean, we're going to go with our ROE.

• 3:27:13Shawn Ryan?

  So the, so you're, when you say, when we talk about voting.

• 3:27:16Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:27:17Shawn Ryan?

  You're saying, are they gonna vote to live or vote to die?

• 3:27:22Speaker 06

  Yeah, absolutely. So especially if it's like a vehicle interdiction or something that's hard and fast and you have to make quick, you know, quick decisions, you know, super fast or a lot of people are gonna get hurt. It's like it, it might be like, hey, if they do anything other than compliance, immediate and a hundred percent compliance, then they voted, then we're now rolling it into the next phase. You know what I mean? Which is now, is it from capture to kill?

• 3:27:51Shawn Ryan?

  Got it.

• 3:27:51Speaker 06

  Because of the ROE, but yeah, it's always their vote, not us.

• 3:27:55Shawn Ryan?

  Got it.

• 3:27:56Speaker 06

  Yeah, so that, as far as when I'm using it, that term.

• 3:28:00Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, makes sense.

• 3:28:02Speaker 06

  Yeah, so that was, uh, yeah, man, it was, uh, a lot of those, uh, you know, and I just had, always had incredible teammates, man, and they, uh, They really kept, kept, keep me on the rails because those last few years, you know what I mean? Uh, last few deployments, you know, I, I was, uh, I was not okay. Not okay emotionally. My, my performance was still fucking perfect. You know what I mean? But it was, uh, I was already struggling a lot, you know? And I always knew that I was like, man, I'm, something's bad, wrong. Like, cause my tools aren't working, you know? Prior to this point, all my tools, whether it was prayer, meditation, talking, reaching back.

• 3:28:44Speaker 06

  I mean, could always, one thing that I haven't talked about this whole time is my, my actual brother was with me in the eighty second, in the special forces and at the unit. We were in different sub-units.

• 3:28:55Shawn Ryan?

  Are you shitting me?

• 3:28:56Speaker 06

  Was that?

• 3:28:57Shawn Ryan?

  You, your brother was with you?

• 3:28:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah. Not in the exact, like, with me on the ground in the same, uh, sub-unit. You know what I mean? But like, we were in, like, when we were in the eighty second, we were in different brigades, but we were in the eighty second together. When we were in special forces, I was in seventh group, he was in third group. When we were out at the unit, you know, he was in the breacher side, I was on the operator side. So we were, our path was the same path along the way.

• 3:29:22Shawn Ryan?

  Whoa.

• 3:29:23Speaker 06

  So I would be able to-

• 3:29:24Shawn Ryan?

  Hold on. So let's go back to that conver- I did not realize that.

• 3:29:28Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:29:28Shawn Ryan?

  So let's go back to that conversation in the truck.

• 3:29:31Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:29:32Shawn Ryan?

  So he was all, he's also an operator?

• 3:29:35Speaker 06

  No, on the breacher side.

• 3:29:36Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 3:29:36Speaker 06

  So he was on the pure breacher side, but you know, a lot of the same, uh, training criteria and on the same deployments, just different job set. Yeah. So he was, you know, direct support, you know, for Sabre. So he was, yeah, he was on all the targets, doing all that stuff and all the fights and stuff. But he was on the breacher side and, um, yeah, I mean-

• 3:29:57Shawn Ryan?

  Holy shit.

• 3:29:58Speaker 06

  Yeah. So, so I could even-

• 3:30:01Shawn Ryan?

  This isn't even so-

• 3:30:03Speaker 06

  It's a family ordeal. Yeah.

• 3:30:04Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, it's, well, what I'm getting at is I've, I had, I had assumed that your brother was a civilian who had not been exposed to any type of-

• 3:30:15Speaker 06

  Oh, man.

• 3:30:16Shawn Ryan?

  Any type of combat trauma.

• 3:30:19Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:30:19Shawn Ryan?

  And-

• 3:30:22Shawn Ryan?

  And you struck an emotion with him when he realized that killing no longer affected you, correct?

• 3:30:29Speaker 06

  Yeah. Whenever I said the only time I feel anything.

• 3:30:33Shawn Ryan?

  So that's even deeper than than what I had originally thought because he had been exposed to all of that.

• 3:30:38Speaker 06

  Oh, he had been. Yeah, man.

• 3:30:40Shawn Ryan?

  And to hear you say it with his exposure to it.

• 3:30:43Speaker 06

  Is why he was crying.

• 3:30:45Shawn Ryan?

  Killing is a, it's a fucking, I mean, it's, it's part of it.

• 3:30:48Speaker 06

  Exactly.

• 3:30:49Shawn Ryan?

  And, and wow.

• 3:30:52Speaker 06

  Yeah, man, that was, that was why he was crying.

• 3:30:54Shawn Ryan?

  That's a lot of killing.

• 3:30:56Speaker 06

  Yeah, man, because he was qualified, you know what I mean? He really knew what it, he had, he had felt the loss. He had been in the fights, you know, I mean, all of that same thing. He was, you know, I mean, he got a different job while, while still being out there, he got moved into upper management kind of deal. So he wasn't on, you know, on the ground as much, but, you know.

• 3:31:14Shawn Ryan?

  When a civilian sees you, the change, it's just,

• 3:31:21Shawn Ryan?

  it's, it's a different level.

• 3:31:23Speaker 06

  It's different even.

• 3:31:24Shawn Ryan?

  Different level because he'd been exposed and been a part of it.

• 3:31:26Speaker 06

  Completely, man.

• 3:31:27Shawn Ryan?

  So he's also somewhat, has to be somewhat emotionally detached and, and calloused.

• 3:31:34Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 3:31:34Shawn Ryan?

  And so to, to have somebody that, to have somebody close to you, it's just different. It's different than, than a civilian friend who has no.

• 3:31:45Speaker 06

  No context, no point of reference.

• 3:31:47Shawn Ryan?

  Exactly. They have, there is no point of reference for them. They just, they know that, that they, it's sad.

• 3:31:53Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:31:53Shawn Ryan?

  But for that, for that, that it takes it to a completely different level.

• 3:31:58Speaker 06

  Yeah. So I, I think a good comparison between the two is my wife, because she's badass, you know what I mean? As far as, you know, all that piece, that piece, but she's civilian piece of it. And my brother, right? So my brother, you know, gets sad. And my wife sees, because you talked about seeing the change, seeing the difference. So my wife who knows me inside and out, you know what I mean? Just has to look at me and know what's going on. Her response was, is like, yeah, you brought the monster home, you know, in her words.

• 3:32:32Shawn Ryan?

  She said that.

• 3:32:33Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah. Yeah.

• 3:32:36Speaker 06

  Cause she knew what was going on, man. You know what I'm saying? Like she's been in the game just as long as I have. I mean, not doing the game, but in that world, like during our whole deployment time, you know, it was the kid. I mean, it was like some movie, man. Like we lived the times. Like there were six of us living in the same subdivision. All of our kids were kind of the same age. They're running around the neighborhoods. You know, I mean, we told them that like, yeah, daddy's going on a soldier trip. You know, that's what we called them. You know what I mean? And then, but then as they got older, you know what I mean? And we're going to hospitals and now we're going to Arlington. Well, what happened to Uncle Mikey? You know what I mean? Like, oh, he got hurt on a soldier trip. Like, oh, so now it's, you know, I mean, so all of our kids like are growing up during that time.

• 3:33:18Speaker 06

  So everybody had to grow up super fast. You know what I mean? The kids, the wife, and then the wives holding it down. Like, I mean, a single mother for, you know, at least half of my children's life. She was a single mom through it. You know, and she's badass. You know, I mean, we don't hold, we're always respectful with our words, but we also don't hold back, you know? Where she meant it was like, meaning like, hey, you need to do something about that. Cause now you've brought the monster home.

• 3:33:47Shawn Ryan?

  How did that make you feel when she said that?

• 3:33:51Speaker 06

  It was like.

• 3:33:52Shawn Ryan?

  Did you feel?

• 3:33:53Speaker 06

  No, well, it made me, it's like, the only thing that I felt like was like, damn, I wasn't doing a good as job as pretending as I thought I was. Cause I knew, man, the switch had occurred. You know what I mean? I knew something inside had changed me. And I knew that for the time being, I was still going to continue on this mission that I was on.

• 3:34:11Shawn Ryan?

  What was it that triggered her to say that to you?

• 3:34:15Speaker 06

  How I started reacting and not reacting. You know what I mean? And my distance, my emotional distance, and how long it would take for me to recover from a trip. You know what I mean? As far as to be back present with the family. You know, and especially during that time, you know, just with a regular brain, you know, not having, getting blowed up. And you know, so many of us have been blown up. You know, I'm not the only one, you know, kind of guy. But during those same times, you know what I mean? We're coming back. Sometimes within 24 hours of doing an op, you know, 48, you know, I mean, all the time kind of deal as far as coming back.

• 3:34:53Speaker 06

  And then, uh, and then like going to take the kids to school. You, you know what I mean? After like forty eight, like we're just killing kids dad in front of him, you know, kind of deal. So it was like, okay, now I'm doing this. It was like so trippy. Uh, that's why my hat's off to law enforcement. You know, they do it daily sometimes, but back to me, it's like, and then I would be in the kids world. And this was one of the things, man, that was just always so, I go back to the humanity aspect of it, where I didn't, I didn't ever lose my humanity, but it was kind of like it was being obscured, like covered up a bit to enable me to continue on, almost as a survival skill.

• 3:35:34Speaker 06

  Because my hu, my true humanity would be exposed whenever, like I go to my kids' elementary school. You know what I mean? And there's all these eight, nine year olds, right? Just angels, you know, and, uh, and then they would start like singing my country tis of thee. You know what I mean? In that kid voice, I would start fucking coming apart. And I'm just sitting there. Because that's what, you know, I mean, they, these, that's humanity, right? Like that is the essence, our children, you know, of, of everything that is beautiful and wonderful in life. And my own even, you know, blood in that. And it's like,

• 3:36:15Speaker 06

  but I'm the, you know, I mean, I'm not healing that, you know, I mean, I'm not addressing that side of it because I have to keep on going. Cause I can't be having that kind of stuff, doing what I'm doing. That, for me at that time, it didn't no longer coexist because of the accumulation of all the different things, you know?

• 3:36:37Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:36:38Speaker 06

  But that's whenever, it would also be, even though it'd be crushing to me, it also gave me a little bit of relief of like, okay, I'm, I'm still, that part of me is still me. You know, I'm not a robot. I'm not emotionless. I'm not a monster, you know, kind of deal. Yeah. So it was, there was a lot going on during those times and I had to process a lot of it. And then, and then it all got backed up. And, um, that was what led me to end up getting out. Was, um,

• 3:37:10Shawn Ryan?

  Let's, let's, before we do that,

• 3:37:11Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:37:12Shawn Ryan?

  before we get to you getting out.

• 3:37:19Shawn Ryan?

  I'd like to, I know this is a tough ask, but a lot of guys struggle with this.

• 3:37:24Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 3:37:24Shawn Ryan?

  And, um, and so it's something that I like to bring up because of

• 3:37:30Shawn Ryan?

  at least half this audience is coming, or, or G Y vets.

• 3:37:34Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:37:35Shawn Ryan?

  Who've experienced loss. And I know we've talked about

• 3:37:40Shawn Ryan?

  your experience with American loss, but what about, what about a brother?

• 3:37:45Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:37:49Speaker 06

  Yeah, I've experienced a teammate loss.

• 3:37:50Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:37:52Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:37:52Shawn Ryan?

  Have you experienced that?

• 3:37:53Speaker 06

  Uh, not on my team.

• 3:37:56Shawn Ryan?

  Good for you.

• 3:37:57Speaker 06

  Now, but on a, you know, in the troop though, you know what I mean? And really, really good friends, best of friends that weren't, I didn't, they didn't die with me. But I mean, I mean, like in the moment, right then and there.

• 3:38:09Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:38:10Speaker 06

  Uh, but, but I have lost them, you know?

• 3:38:14Shawn Ryan?

  How do you deal with that?

• 3:38:16Speaker 06

  Uh, how I deal with that is like honoring them. Yeah. And I think the better way of, of demonstrating not so much is, cause then the next question will be, how do you honor? I think the next question should be, or the next thing to talk about is how we dishonor them.

• 3:38:37Speaker 06

  Cause that's the easier one. So I, I dishonor, I honor the, I honor the dead by the life I live now.

• 3:38:49Speaker 06

  Or I dishonor them. And how I dishonor them? I mean, dude, like getting pissed drunk and slobbering and crying and like, oh my God, I miss you so much. Like, is that honoring them? Like if you, you know what I mean? Me and you are best friends. I died, you know, I mean, for you, in place of you. Or I just died and we're teammates and you did it. You know what I mean? Let's say that I did, maybe I even saved you or something, you know what I mean? And now, now, now the gift that you've been given.

• 3:39:24Speaker 06

  You're gonna just like, bro, that's the best you can do with like the gift I gave you?

• 3:39:29Shawn Ryan?

  I'm glad you're saying that.

• 3:39:30Speaker 06

  Yeah, bro, because it's bullshit, man.

• 3:39:33Shawn Ryan?

  You live life to the fullest, like they would want you to live.

• 3:39:37Speaker 06

  That's our responsibility, man. Anything other than that, and I have failed at it miserably. Let me tell you that. I'm not, again, I don't, I got all the T-shirts, keychains. I don't judge any other man, but I judge what is, what is a fact. And it is a fact, if I am not living my life to the best, I mean, to the best of my ability because of their sacrifice, that shit's on me of being a shitty, dishonoring teammate. That is how, that is my judgment of me, not of you, but that is my judgment, man. Because like all that they did for us, like I go back to like where we started this with, man,

• 3:40:21Speaker 06

  me riding on the shoulders of giants, man, all of that stuff that all those guys did. And I'm given this gift of doing better. There was a time when I was ignorant and I couldn't do better. I was just a dumbass, you know, and, uh, and now I have an option and I'm, and I'm choosing to stay in this bullshit, self pity, dishonoring thing. Yeah, fuck that. That's what I say to that thing. And it's totally dishonoring if that's what you choose to continue to do. And I'll be happy to fight over it. You know what I mean? Where it's like, cause our job, man, is to honor them, tell their stories, like talk about them like, but it's painful for us.

• 3:41:02Speaker 06

  Like we don't wanna like, I'll talk about this and that, but I don't wanna, like I'll talk about that. That's what we need to talk about, man. You know, I mean, that's what we need to celebrate. That's what we need, you know, I mean, that's what it's all about, but it's so hard, you know, I mean, it's super hard to do, man. But I live my life and fail at it miserably on times to honor the sacrifices they made, man. Without being a, you know, enthusiastically, you know, I mean, joyfully. I mean, I get sad as shit, you know what I mean? Like

• 3:41:34Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:41:35Speaker 06

  We've all experienced like a lot of, I'm, I'm actually sad a lot of the times, you know what I mean? It's like, cause there's a lot of shit to be sad about, you know?

• 3:41:45Speaker 06

  But I'm also super happy, you know what I mean? I'm also living a good life because I don't, you know what I mean? Like I'm, we're all, we're gonna see him again. I mean, my belief system is I'm gonna see those guys again and they're gonna be like, hey, motherfucker.

• 3:42:00Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's gonna be AAR time. In the team room. It's gonna be in the team room with the door locked. And now we're gonna have an AAR.

• 3:42:10Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:42:11Speaker 06

  On what Tom did and didn't do.

• 3:42:15Speaker 06

  I know that, man, like, I know they're waiting. You know, and I mean, that's just my belief system, man. So I don't wanna, I don't wanna fucking deal with them, man. Like, you know what I'm saying? Cause they're gonna, I don't wanna have them hand me my ass.

• 3:42:28Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:42:29Speaker 06

  I mean, they can handle me screwing up at times and, you know what I mean? And that piece, man, but I don't wanna dishonor them, man. I wanna dishonor my current family. It's hard, bro.

• 3:42:40Shawn Ryan?

  Man, I'll tell you, I don't know a lot of guys that came through that don't need any help. In fact, I don't know any.

• 3:42:48Speaker 06

  Yeah, man, it's in some of these. Well, no, I mean, yes, I have seen guys that, that have, like, that are doing, in my opinion, they're doing really well. Guys that, I mean, they're, but they're like oddities, you know what I mean? Like, they're the, you know, just the freak shows and they're just great humans and they process all right. And from my knowing, they're doing all right, but they're like a super, super zero, zero point zero percent. You know, but yeah, but most people just, even just in life in general, man, you know what I mean? Like, look how hard life is just a regular. And now you talk about, I always, we always joke about, it's like, we live, we've lived dog lives. You know what I mean?

• 3:43:28Speaker 06

  Like, cause one deployment is like three years, a minimum of three years of a regular human being's life.

• 3:43:36Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:43:37Speaker 06

  I mean, most people just lose a significant other a few times in their life.

• 3:43:42Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:43:42Speaker 06

  Like, we would do it maybe twice in one deployment. I mean, like someone that we truly loved.

• 3:43:48Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:43:48Speaker 06

  I mean, so you can't stack up that much life experience, cause I don't like even calling it trauma. Like, it's war, man, like, we go to war.

• 3:44:00Speaker 06

  War is fucking horrible, you know what I mean? But that's what it is. And we just help, it helps us categorize it by saying traumatic. Because it is trauma on the brain and emotions and that kind of stuff. But that's what the show is, man. Like, there's no war without that stuff. And to think that we can get through it, or to think that I can get through it without needing assistance, you know? Man, I did it to learn how to shoot the pistol. At twenty-five meters, you know what I mean? I didn't learn that on my own. I had an instructor.

• 3:44:32Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:44:33Speaker 06

  I didn't do physical therapy on my own. When I had shoulder surgery, I had a physical therapist. You know, so now my emotions are out of whack.

• 3:44:41Speaker 06

  I'm not gonna go see my teammate.

• 3:44:45Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:44:47Speaker 06

  You know what I'm saying? I'm gonna go see someone or do something in a different vein. But I do, as you can tell, I get fired up, man, when I hear guys whining about, you know, loss and suicide, and they're not doing a fucking thing about it. You know what I mean? Except talking.

• 3:45:01Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:45:02Speaker 06

  They're just, just, just talking about how awful it is and how we need to do something about it. I mean, there's a, there's a good group of dudes that is. You know what I mean? But the majority, they'll, they'll, they'll talk about it and they'll share to where it costs them.

• 3:45:18Shawn Ryan?

  There's so many, it's like, when I asked that question to you at the beginning. How do you get ahead of PTSD?

• 3:45:27Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:45:27Shawn Ryan?

  What would your advice be? You know, and I know, I get fired up about it too, because this isn't two thousand and six.

• 3:45:37Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:45:37Shawn Ryan?

  When you got out and nobody was talking about this. And nobody knew how to deal with it.

• 3:45:41Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:45:42Shawn Ryan?

  And you didn't have anybody to talk to because

• 3:45:44Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:45:46Shawn Ryan?

  Because everybody's still in it. You know? And, um, now there's just

• 3:45:55Shawn Ryan?

  I think that there, that, that, that, that man, I fucking hate saying this, but I think that

• 3:46:05Shawn Ryan?

  I think that there is a portion of the veteran community that has really embraced becoming a victim.

• 3:46:16Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:46:17Shawn Ryan?

  And now there's just not a

• 3:46:21Shawn Ryan?

  there's not a valid excuse anymore.

• 3:46:24Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:46:24Shawn Ryan?

  It would be, no. Just like we had said at the very beginning, there's so many, even just on this show, you know, there are so many different avenues that you can go and find what fits for you. And there's example after example after example of, of warfighter.

• 3:46:44Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:46:45Shawn Ryan?

  Warfighters who've been on the show, who have done all these different, all started things, been through things. You know, there must be at least a dozen different avenues of, of ways to a, a good start.

• 3:46:58Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:46:58Shawn Ryan?

  You know, pick one.

• 3:46:59Speaker 06

  To get trained up.

• 3:47:00Shawn Ryan?

  And fucking go with it.

• 3:47:01Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:47:01Shawn Ryan?

  You know, and there's no more, there's no, there's just no excuse anymore.

• 3:47:07Speaker 06

  No.

• 3:47:07Shawn Ryan?

  You know, for

• 3:47:10Speaker 06

  It's choice, choosing that, choosing to be, like you said, it's not available. Okay. Hey, figure it out.

• 3:47:16Shawn Ryan?

  Happiness is a choice.

• 3:47:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, man.

• 3:47:18Shawn Ryan?

  Getting better is a choice.

• 3:47:19Speaker 06

  It is.

• 3:47:19Shawn Ryan?

  You know, and, and

• 3:47:21Speaker 06

  And nobody owes you a fucking thing, man.

• 3:47:23Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:47:24Speaker 06

  Like I did this for my country, rose a volunteer army.

• 3:47:28Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:47:28Speaker 06

  Volunteer military. No, I didn't get drafted.

• 3:47:33Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:47:34Speaker 06

  Now I believe in the workman's comp aspect of it, you know what I mean? As far as injuries that I got, like, okay, on that piece, but I mean, like, hey, like, like American owe me for what I did. Like, no, man, I bought like, no one owes me anything, like that entitlement mentality. Like, hey, yeah, the US government owes you something because you were government equipment that got damaged. And now like, okay, they need to compensate that piece of, of what's damaged, not for what's made up, but what's for what's actually damaged. But then other than that, man, it's like, What are you doing?

• 3:48:09Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:48:09Speaker 06

  Like, like get to work. Like, because it's total victim mentality and that entitlement. Because I see it all the time. And it's, and actually, an entitlement mentality is a victim mentality.

• 3:48:23Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:48:24Speaker 06

  Like, like you owe me something. You know what I mean? Because of what I, what I did. You know what I mean? It's conditional.

• 3:48:30Shawn Ryan?

  That's a great point. That's a great point.

• 3:48:32Speaker 06

  Yeah, man, because I just look at that whole, like, having not taken responsibility for your own self. You know what I mean? And what you have done in your life and what you're, you know, where you're at and where you're going. You're being a victim.

• 3:48:48Speaker 06

  Well, I had all these traumas going like, okay. But there's all these avenues of seeking help that most of them will be for free if you look hard enough. Somebody is going to pay that shit. If you don't have any money and for real don't have any, not just money that you don't want to spend. You know, because that's, and this population is a lot too. It's like, again, because they think they owe something. But I mean, that victim mentality, you can never get better.

• 3:49:12Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:49:13Speaker 06

  Because it, because if you're my problem, I'm screwed. Because I'll have a problem anytime you want me to have one. But if I'm the problem, now I can do something. You know what I mean? Because that's complete ownership. I'm at choice. Like, yeah, all these things happened to me. And yeah, that sucked. And yeah, I struggled greatly for it now, like on the TBI side. And this is what I'm doing about it. Because if you ask me, hey, would I change anything? I say, hell, no. You know? Just that accountability, that, I mean, the better word is responsibility of me taking responsibility for myself. And it's hard. You know, I mean, a lot of us aren't trained. I wasn't trained to do that.

• 3:49:55Speaker 06

  I've had all these teachers throughout, throughout my life.

• 3:49:59Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:50:00Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? Especially post, you know, post military, you know what I mean? It was, it was.

• 3:50:07Shawn Ryan?

  I had a guy on here the other day. There are seventy,

• 3:50:11Shawn Ryan?

  seventy, over seventy nonprofits.

• 3:50:16Shawn Ryan?

  Designed just to help special ops guys.

• 3:50:20Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:50:21Shawn Ryan?

  That's, that's 70 different avenues that you can go to for free, you know?

• 3:50:28Speaker 06

  Mm hmm.

• 3:50:29Shawn Ryan?

  I think, uh, you know, I wish they had more for the conventional guys.

• 3:50:33Speaker 06

  See, and that's where my heart always goes to. I mean, I love my spec op guys, you know what I mean? That stuff, but I mean, we got a lot of, we got it good, you know what I mean? Who my big concern is the conventional guys and the cops, you know, I mean, the people that, that don't have those avenues, you know?

• 3:50:48Shawn Ryan?

  That's one of the things I love about Warrior's Art is what you're doing, what you and your partner had started. I'm sorry, um, his name escapes me now, but it's for everybody.

• 3:50:58Speaker 06

  Gosh, oh, yeah, man.

• 3:50:59Shawn Ryan?

  Correct?

• 3:51:00Speaker 06

  Yeah, that is absolutely correct.

• 3:51:01Shawn Ryan?

  And that was, that was actually one of my patrons' questions too, is where can conventional guys go and get help? Because there isn't much for them, you know, and, and, and, I mean, you know, as tough as those stories, those, not stories, as tough as those experiences were for you to articulate, you know, with the mass casualty events, those are conventional guys.

• 3:51:27Speaker 06

  Oh, my God.

• 3:51:28Shawn Ryan?

  And, and all these people are starting these nonprofits and they're all for spec operators.

• 3:51:36Speaker 06

  Sexy spec op guys.

• 3:51:37Shawn Ryan?

  And it sucks, man. It fucking sucks because it was, it was grunt Marines that took the brute,

• 3:51:44Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:51:45Shawn Ryan?

  You know, the, the front of Fallujah.

• 3:51:48Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:51:48Shawn Ryan?

  And,

• 3:51:51Shawn Ryan?

  and there's just not that much out there for them, man.

• 3:51:54Speaker 06

  Yeah, and that's what my heart, I mean, my only combat patch that I wear is my 82nd patch. Cause that's, I mean, that's how I was raised. Don't forget where you come from, boy.

• 3:52:03Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:52:03Speaker 06

  You know, like, uh, yeah, man, but it's wild, you know, when we kind of switch it up a little bit, but as hard as all those things were in the military and all of that stuff, you know, experiencing those events.

• 3:52:19Speaker 06

  Transitioning out of the military and dealing with those events was 10 times harder.

• 3:52:24Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:52:25Speaker 06

  Cause I didn't have a gray hair for one, when I was in the military doing all that stuff. I get out, you know, have to get a job and learn all this other stuff and all these healing modalities and cognitive therapy and vestibular therapy. I was like, fuck, it's kicking my ass.

• 3:52:41Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:52:42Speaker 06

  But it all worked, so.

• 3:52:45Shawn Ryan?

  So what, what was it that made you to separate from the unit?

• 3:52:51Speaker 06

  Yeah. So number one, it was, uh, it was time. But again, back to me trusting in God, like I'm too hard headed. Was kind of too screwed up. You know what I mean? I was leaning more towards what's better for the team than for the family. And not in a horrible way, but it was leaning that way and I knew it and couldn't do anything about it. And, uh, my saving grace, uh, was, uh, my back. So I've broken my back in 2003. Surgery in 2004, re-injured my back in 2007 significantly. And, um, so I couldn't wear kit anymore without taking narcotics. And because I was sober, like I'm not going to go down that road. You know what I mean?

• 3:53:32Speaker 06

  And so I physically couldn't wear kit without the headaches. The, the actual physical pain was more than I could, you know, tune out. It was seeping into my, that. So, so physically I couldn't wear kit anymore. If I couldn't wear kit anymore, then I wasn't going to do the job anymore. Cause the only reason why I ever wanted to do the job was because of the kit. And, um, so, um, I mean, a bigger man would have probably taken a support job and, you know, and give back. I was not that guy at that time. Uh, I was like, I can't, I successfully avoided.

• 3:54:06Shawn Ryan?

  It's almost humorous you say give back.

• 3:54:09Speaker 06

  Yeah. But I was done and, and the only, when I wrote up the pros and cons for staying in, cause they, the cool thing was, is I still, I mean, I had a good reputation. They wanted me to do another year of team time, which not everybody, you know, everybody got two years if you didn't screw up. Not everybody got three. I got offered three. So that was really cool. Um.

• 3:54:31Speaker 06

  But physically, I couldn't do it. And when I added up the positives and negatives, and I never cared about being a S R major. I never cared about rank and higher position. Man, I'm, I'm, I'm that dumbass private, you know, at heart. I mean, the greatest job I ever had in my life was to I C on assault on the teams, you know what I mean? Cause you had, that's my style of leadership is like being upfront, you know, leading from the front. It's just what I've always been really good at. And those days were gone and um, yeah, but I couldn't work it anymore. So I guess it's like, man, I'm getting out. It was super hard though, because I'd planned on doing 30 years and I was, I was a super lifer. I was like, I'm not leaving the army until they, they kick me out, you know?

• 3:55:15Speaker 06

  But then all the different things happened. And then um, once I decided like, hey, I'm gonna get out. And it was a family decision, you know, because we weren't doing that great at the time. I mean, we're gonna get a divorce or separated or anything, but I mean,

• 3:55:28Speaker 06

  I mean, when it's like, when you ask guys, what'd you do in your 30s? Like, all of our 30s, my mother and my wife, like, we were in and out of war, you know what I mean? The whole time, our children in and out of war. Like, I didn't bring it off, make sure the picture, if it's okay with my wife, anyway. I'll make sure the picture gets up, man. If you look at the picture of my retirement ceremony, you know, me and my wife and kids, you just see how tired they are, man. They're just, I mean, they're all in, you know what I mean? Wasn't anything bad. Love me, you know, it's good. But it's just like, you can see their eyes and they're just like, fucking tired, man. Just because that, that tempo, you know what I mean? And then as kids, you know, if there's anyone that's, people like talking about sacrificing.

• 3:56:10Speaker 06

  Man, I didn't sacrifice anything. I didn't. I volunteered for all of that, man. I volunteered for it. I didn't plan on the injuries, some of the injuries that I got. The sacrifice means that, you know what I mean? I have a, you know, I'm doing something I don't want to do. I'm sacrificing this. It wasn't, I traded my family time for the war to, based on my priorities and what I thought was right, you know what I mean?

• 3:56:41Speaker 06

  You know, so they sacrificed. Cause they didn't want me to go. Yeah. You know what I mean? So all the, it's the families that sacrifice. Unless a draft kicks up again, like, okay, then I'll buy that you sacrificed. Because I chose to go to all those different things and do all the different things that I did. Like for me, I have to stay in that mindset or I'll start feeling sorry for myself. You know, cause I have bad days, you know, I mean, go through a lot of, life is difficult, like we said at times and I can't handle an ounce of self pity, you know, it creeps in enough as it is, you know, and uh, like talking about sacrifice, like, I don't know, man. Yeah.

• 3:57:24Speaker 06

  Yeah. So, oh no, I got off on that little tangent, but uh, but that's what the choices of getting out was that's just kinda everything had kinda lined up. And man, it was time, right? Because um, when I first came in, I told you about the Vietnam vets. So you had the ones that were helping me out, but then you had the other Vietnam vets that'd be like, old army's gone to shit, you know what I mean? This bunch of pussies running, you know what I mean? They were just like, they were just like, you know, they hated everybody and everything, you know, and it's like, and the new recruits, you know, it's like, you're gonna hate it, it's gonna be the worst spirit, you know what I mean? And I was like, meanwhile, we're like, this is the best thing ever. Well, they left. We became what we became, you know? So I started becoming that guy.

• 3:58:09Speaker 06

  So thank God I've realized it myself, but you know, everybody was fucked up. You're all fucked up, that stupid plan, we did that in oh five, we tried that in oh eight. In nine, that sucked, this is stupid, you're fucking idiot. And I was like, oh my God, man. Like I'm that guy now. I was like, oh. And I came to the conclusion, man, is that it was just time to go. It was like, hey, man, it was a good run. So I made the decision. They ended up med boarding me, you know, I mean, and starting that process, which is a whole nother thing, but the next kinda thing that came up. Is I had never missed a deployment. I had three major surgeries, back surgery, leg surgery,

• 3:58:49Speaker 06

  shoulder surgery, in between deployments. I never missed a deployment with my team, ever. My back surgery was a six-month rehab, but I finished up my rehab and went on the next deployment because I was just dumb. But, uh, but the team, you know, was everything and, um, and I was wondering, it was like, man, how am I gonna deal with, like, they're getting on the plane and headed to Afghanistan. I'm not. Up until that moment, anytime they had gotten on the plane and headed anywhere, I was with them.

• 3:59:19Speaker 06

  And so I was like, whew, what's it gonna be like in a man and two, you know, because again, solid decision-making, a lot of prayer, a lot of, um, discussion with mentors and people that I trusted. This is the right thing to do, man, whether you like it or not. This is the writing on the wall. This is what you need to do. So pulled the trigger, started that. When those guys deployed, um, you know, uh, beginning of 11, uh, said prayers for them, sent them off, and I was okay. You know what I mean? And I was like, part of me was like, super relieved because I was so worried that inside of me was like, I should fucking be with them. You know what I mean, Tha?

• 4:00:01Speaker 06

  But it was, I had gotten enough, man. You know, um, uh, I, I didn't go to get all I wanted, but I got all I could stand. You know what I mean? Between physical injuries, brain injuries.

• 4:00:14Shawn Ryan?

  What do you think you didn't get that you wanted?

• 4:00:17Speaker 06

  Man, I will never not want to kill bad guys and bullshit up.

• 4:00:21Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:00:23Speaker 06

  I'll, I'll, to, right now, I want to do that. You know what I'm saying? So I, it's not, what I had to do-

• 4:00:29Shawn Ryan?

  That's the way I articulate it too, you know, it's never, it's like-

• 4:00:31Speaker 06

  It's choice.

• 4:00:32Shawn Ryan?

  It's like money.

• 4:00:33Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:00:33Shawn Ryan?

  It's never enough.

• 4:00:35Speaker 06

  Yeah, man.

• 4:00:35Shawn Ryan?

  You know what I mean? It's just, it's, it's, it becomes like a greed.

• 4:00:39Speaker 06

  Yeah, man. I just, it, I finally realized, uh, I realized one day, I still had more years in. It was like, I thought maybe I, it would run out of me, like I'm going through a phase. You're like, eventually this, this will run out. I'll kind of get tired of, of this. You know what I mean? And it kept going, kept going. And I was like, okay, so I'm not gonna run out of it. It's, it's just a choice. I'm choosing to do this. And if I choose to do it longer, I'm choosing to do it longer.

• 4:01:07Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:01:07Speaker 06

  But I'm not gonna- But it's not gonna go away. I mean, any warrior, American warrior that doesn't want to kill bad guys and blow shit up is not an American warrior. There's something other, might be something, but they're not that.

• 4:01:25Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:01:26Speaker 06

  And, um, so, yeah, so all of that lined up, man, and it was time to get out. And that's when we really found out what was the matter with me, you know? Cause I had one of my, one of my best friends throughout the whole time. I would tell him about everything that was going on, like a hundred percent. How I was thinking, how I was feeling, you know, I mean, he was, he was also in recovery. You know what I mean? He was sober guy. He was working for another special mission unit in Virginia. In, uh, in oh five, he got clipped in the head with an AK at close range. So he had been through all the TBI stuff whenever there wasn't really any TBI stuff, like oh five, you know what I mean? So he was like way ahead of like, he's like, bro, you're fucked up, man.

• 4:02:09Speaker 06

  I'm like, really? You know, cause I'm, I'm thinking like I'm kinda keeping it together. Like, yeah, it's a little rough, but, you know, and I was like, everybody I know is like me, you know? And they're like, yeah, man, well, you're all screwed up, you know? And I was like, ah, and he's like, hey, man, look, just take the test. Like he gave me the test to take, you know, for the TBI piece that are definitive, you know? And so what motivated me to, uh, get help, you know, when I was getting out of number one, I didn't care anymore, you know, you know how on the PTSD scale, you never answer on the far right, you know what I mean?

• 4:02:48Speaker 06

  But now it was like, um, I didn't care, cause I don't, my job doesn't depend on, I don't care about a secret clearance. I'm not going into contract. I mean, if I was gonna stay in the game, I'd have stayed in the unit, you know what I mean? My wartime was over and done, over. I wasn't gonna contract. I wasn't, I mean, he's an old broke dude, had a shit ton of fucking, you know, hell of a run, you know what I mean? Like, that phase was over.

• 4:03:13Speaker 06

  So, um, so I wasn't gonna do any of that stuff. So, um, I was getting all, I wasn't afraid of losing a clearance. You know what I mean? So I told him what I was, what was going on. But the testing, so what got me to the testing was, is that, uh, him and I almost fucking blew my own head off. Uh, with all the support. So I was the, a guy that was most set up for success. If you were gonna bet on a guy that was gonna be able to transition and make it out and be super successful, it would have been me if you based it off of the support. Like, okay, he's sober. You know what I mean? Doesn't have the chemical dependency to mess with. He's got a God in his life. He has a support group. He has an incredible, loving wife. He has incredible, loving family, brothers, sisters.

• 4:03:58Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? He's just got all of this support. He's been sober for this amount of time. He's processed this much trauma. You know, like, fuck, this guy's gonna, he's good to go, man. With all, and it was all true. And with all of that, I went through a military decision-making process on why it might be a good idea to put a bullet in my brain. Cause my thinking wasn't right. So what was going on with me was all this noise was in my head before any, you know, any of the rehabilitation that I'd had. It was just me off a team now. And it was just all this noise and all these emotions and all this anger and everything going on.

• 4:04:43Speaker 06

  I just needed to stop. And in my life, I'd always had enough tools to deal with me. You know, whether it was my sponsor, whether it was talking to a spiritual advisor, whether it was prayer, whether it was working with others, whether it was helping out. You know what I mean? Always has tools in the tool belt to turn this off. Well, I'd used every tool in the tool belt and nothing would turn it off. And then I said to myself, was like, well, I know what bullets do to brains. You know what I mean? That'll turn it off. So it wasn't like my family would be better off. And it wasn't a, like, oh, this is, you know, it wasn't like a horrible feeling moment or it was an actual decision-making process.

• 4:05:25Speaker 06

  So that's what I was going down, course of action one, hey, how did the kids find me? How does this happen? Like course of action two, like I am like totally logically going through M D M P on why using this is a good idea. And then the grace of God amongst that piece, like I've realized what I was doing. I was like, holy shit, man. Like, I'm actually thinking that this is an actual course of action. You know what I mean of doing that? And then I went and got help, you know? Then all the, but the catalyst for that was another warrior, man. My best friend, my buddy Ryan.

• 4:06:06Speaker 06

  You know, I mean, my brother, who was always constantly in there on me and Ryan saying, "Bro, you gotta get help, gotta get help, gotta get help, gotta get help, gotta get help." Cause we're not gonna listen to anybody else. You know what I'm saying? That's just, I mean, the amount of arrogance that we have. You know what I mean? Like, we are only good at, you know what I mean? If you say you've done it, like, okay. You know, I mean, you're giving my, okay. Somebody else, I don't care what they're saying. It's just how we're wired. So it takes us to do that. You know, it takes a warrior to get a warrior's attention. And then it takes a warrior to heal a warrior also. And so I took all the tests. They're definitive, like eight hours of testing with a clinician. You know what I mean?

• 4:06:51Speaker 06

  Verbal memory puzzles. That was an interesting game too, man. Cause I would get so furious again, cause I was having those huge swings and I couldn't figure out how to do a puzzle. Dude, I was so many symptoms, like I would get lost driving to and from work. I'd have to put it in a GPS. Same route for 10 years. You know what I mean? I would get lost out of all those big mood swings. Like I, I wouldn't know where I was. I mean, it was a mess. And, uh, and I knew that I was losing my mind again. Cause before I got sober, remember I was almost losing my mind? And now I knew I was going crazy. And, uh, you can't fix crazy. I know that. And so.

• 4:07:36Speaker 06

  So I was really concerned, so I took all those tests, got the results back, met with the neuropsych, sat down with the neuropsych and um, and he's like, hey Tom, I'm reading results, these results are definitive, the tests are set up to prove if someone's faking it, you know, it's, it's bulletproof, man, you know what I mean, on what these results are. And he said, we don't have your solid IQ as a baseline, we just have your, you know, your general IQ, which we know our IQs are usually much higher than that. And um, so based off that baseline, he's like, yeah, so cognitively, you're operating 50% processing

• 4:08:14Speaker 06

  speed cognitively. Yeah, and then 50% verbal memory. Um, your brain, the part of those parts of your brains are working at that capacity. Shit. And he said that, and I felt the biggest relief. Right? That doesn't make sense. No, it doesn't. And this, and this, this is why it makes sense. So I like visibly relax, right? So the doc, you know, he's looking at me, super great man, you know, and a great doc. He's a solid man too, you know, and uh, he looks at me and he's like, hey Tom, um, and he's wondering if I'm having a cognitive moment, right? And uh, he's like, I need to know that you

• 4:08:57Speaker 06

  understand, you know, what, what I just told you, uh, because you did not have the reaction that I thought you would have. And I was like, I was like, hey doc, yeah, like, no cognitively, I completely understand, you know, I have brain damage and that's bad. 50% processing speed, 50% verbal memory. I said, the reason why I'm relieved though, is you just told me I was injured and that I wasn't crazy. You know, cause I can work with injury, you know, I mean, I understand, I really understand the amount of physical therapy and everything, therapy, I understand that. But crazy can't fix, you know, and um, so you just told me I wasn't crazy. So I was super relieved. And then I'm like, okay,

• 4:09:40Speaker 06

  now I have an injury, we attack it like all my other injuries, you know, what's the healing modalities, what's all that. So, once we had all that and then...

• 4:09:49Speaker 06

  You know, the unit, you know, they did the best that they could. You know, I mean, again, it was full up war was going on. You know, it was 2010, 11 timeframe. You know, I mean, they're, they're full tilt, just as they were in 05. You know what I mean? Like that machine is rolling. So there wasn't a lot of things in place now, you know, as far as to help out or anything like that. And, um, and so whenever it came to help, it was basically, I needed to get it on my own. You know, cause once they found out, cause I told them, I was like, hey, something's wrong with my head. And they're like, well, you're getting older and maybe this or maybe that. And I was like, no, you need to test me. We've got the tests. Then they seen the results and they're like, holy shit. Like no jumping, no shooting, no, I mean, it was bad, you know?

• 4:10:34Speaker 06

  And, uh, and you know, that brain injury is not, is nonlinear. You know, you know, I mean, it's bad and then it goes to there. And then, you know, it's all over the place so that, you know, no nothing. And so, and then I was like, okay, now I gotta start getting all the therapies, you know? So then it was cognitive therapy. Um, so here's like another thing we talked about God and like we were talking about this morning. Like knowing that I'm on path, right? So everything that I'm doing from this moment forward, uh, is goes against the culture of where I come from at that time. You know, I mean, quiet professionals, you don't say nothing, that kind of thing. So I was dying, right?

• 4:11:17Speaker 06

  Even though I'm sober, like cognitively, vestibularly, like, like, man, I'm, I'm, I'm still, I'm not dying, right? But I'm, I'm still not recovering yet.

• 4:11:26Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:11:27Speaker 06

  So I know how to recover. How do you recover? You talk about it, you know, I mean, with shrinks, whatever, you get help, go get help. You know, I mean, now I don't have to worry about losing my job or anything like that. Like I'm full tilt getting help. So, but I'm not getting any support. Again, I don't blame the unit for that because they were focused on war and that's where they needed to be focused. We didn't, they didn't have the manpower at the time to focus on folks that were in my situation at the time. And, um, so I'm like, okay, plus I'd have done it on my own anyway. I was super angry, like all those motions swings. I had to get out of the army early. I had all kinds of unprocessed trauma, had untreated TBI. I was not a joy to be around, you know what I mean?

• 4:12:10Speaker 06

  And so they were okay with me not being around, you know? And, uh, not because they didn't like me, but there was kind of like. Bro, you're a little, you're a little lot, you know? So I walk into the TBI clinic, um, there at Walmec and uh, and I'm like, yeah, I need an appointment. He has this big beard, you know, I mean, fucking crazy guy eyes and uh, I'll look at a picture of like what I looked like in 2009 and uh, have that look, you know what I mean? Like the look, the wartime warfighter look and um, and it's real. So I go in there and like, yeah, I need an appointment. They're like, well, you know, so I get an appointment. So it was like, here's this PTSD thing to fill out, right? And I'm like, okay, you really want to know?

• 4:12:55Speaker 06

  Again, now here we go. So I write it all down and then um, uh, turn it into them and I'm like, well, this ought to be kind of interesting. Cause they're already terrified anyway of us, you know, our types and um, and now it just turned into basically I'm almost fucking crazy, you know what I mean? Like I got a lot going on. So the next thing you know, these two ladies come out of the background, you know, and like, hey, mess, aren't you know, uh, how you doing? You know, I'm like, hey, I'm okay. Like y'all want me to tell the truth? Like I'm telling the truth. You know what I mean? But I'm, I'm okay. I mean, I'm not okay. But like, I'm not going to freak out and like start doing stuff and they're like, okay, you know, and uh,

• 4:13:40Speaker 06

  so we went in the back and then we started talking, you know, and so then I get a cognitive therapist, vestibular therapist, psychologist, go to med, I mean, just this whole regimen. I stand up on a three month, not inpatient because I'm going at home at night, but my whole days, man, are filled with all of this rehab and it's brutal, man. Total ass whipping. I'd go fall asleep in the truck, you know, in the parking lot before I'd head home just to get sleep and um, but I still, man, a part of me thinks I'm so wrong for doing what I'm doing. Cause I'm like, coming from where I came from, unit wise, like everything is really in-house, you know? You know, but I'm gonna survive.

• 4:14:21Speaker 06

  You know, that's the decision, the choice that I make, you know, and um, and if that's at odds of where I come from and the people who I come from. Well, I don't fucking care because I have a new loyalty chain now. Now my family actually does come first. Now my family actually is my team for the first time ever. You know what I mean? So my job is to be able to support my team, which I was in a deficit. So I had a lot of fucking work to do, you know? So there was a lot of guys even at the time because I was very vocal about what I was going through because that's how I survive. You know what I mean? You talk about it and 50% of the guys were all about it. You know what I mean? Because a lot of them were having

• 4:15:05Speaker 06

  the same kind of struggles. You know what I mean? Even if they didn't say it overtly, we talked about it in closed session, you know, it made them feel better knowing like, yeah, bro, there's a lot of guys suffering, you know? So 50% of them, I'm just using rough numbers, thought it was cool. And then now the 50% would be like, yeah, he needs to shut the fuck up, you know? But they wouldn't say that to my face.

• 4:15:25Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:15:26Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? Because back to the rules, I'm not a hippie. You know what I mean? Like, we can fight. You know what I mean? Like, and they knew that. And so, so anyway, I had to do, again, back to, I do what I do because that's what I say I'm gonna do.

• 4:15:42Shawn Ryan?

  When did Warrior's Heart come in?

• 4:15:44Speaker 06

  Uh, yeah. So the thing about all those therapies and shit, it all works, man. I actually started getting better. I started being able to enjoy my life. Still had a lot of pain.

• 4:15:53Shawn Ryan?

  When did your wife start to notice?

• 4:15:56Speaker 06

  So she started, she started noticing immediately because she knows me so well. You know what I mean? She knew I was still struggling a lot and we talked about different struggles, not in detail, but that was just our comms plan that we had together. You know what I mean? She knew I was working on it. I communicated that I was, you know? And, uh, and so we, we started getting better and I started being able to be an actual dad, like taking kids to school and being a football coach and stuff. But then also started working. I wanted to stay in the tactical realm just because I needed to for a while because I, I needed to be around that community of people, you know, and, and provide a good product. But I knew it wasn't where I wanted to be. I just didn't know where I wanted to be was next. Uh, but in that tactical world and for the cool thing

• 4:16:39Speaker 06

  ever, you know, with my brother and I. He got out a few years before I did. And I was out, so we actually started working together, like actually together. And we had a rough start with this company that we worked for. We should have knew it went bad, because who was running it, but it's okay. And so, anyway, we start working together and we start doing all the tactical stuff. And we start doing some kind of, we called them fun and guns, but it's these, with civilians, you know, mixing military stuff, not military tactics or techniques, but basic fundamentals of marksmanship, CQB, that kind of stuff. So it was a different audience.

• 4:17:22Speaker 06

  And then, different things that I'd learned about at that time was about healing. You know, and a big piece of that was is that how do warriors heal? You know, because warrior to warrior, you know, is just, is relief. Like, so, but it's not healing. The only true healing comes from the community in which the warrior served. Right? Because we assume the burden. We went to war and forever changed. Right? And so, that burden that we share, that we have is supposed to be shared with our community for who we went and fought for. But it's not. Because of the divide, you know, of the community, only 1% serves.

• 4:18:06Speaker 06

  You know, it's not a blame game. It's just a very big divide. But me and my brother started practicing closing that distance. And we started doing that, and this ties into Warrior's Heart big time. Is what we did is that, this guy named Edward Tych, and War and the Soul is the name of his book. I got all this information, this TTP, basically, of, right? Is how the warrior heals, is the warrior gets with the trusted agents in the community and tells a story. And it transfers some of that experience on to them, right? That's the super shortest, rough version, I can do it.

• 4:18:47Shawn Ryan?

  What is the program?

• 4:18:49Speaker 06

  So Warrior's Heart is a forty, minimum forty-two day inpatient treatment program. Primary diagnosis is chemical dependency, so alcohol and drugs, with secondary in the alphabet soup. You know, PTSD, mild traumatic brain injury, moral grief and injury, all the other stuff that goes along with the job description. But it's primary of that, so it's, um, uh... What makes it different, what makes Warrior's Heart different about other different rehabs is because it's the Warrior's way. Like, I think I can speak for most veterans, like, environment matters. You know, where we heal, like, we don't heal in hospitals unless I'm getting a surgery. You know what I mean? If I need a sterile environment, and well, I need to be in a hospital.

• 4:19:35Speaker 06

  If I need to heal mind, body, and spirit, you know, and it's not sterile, then a sterile environment is not a productive environment for me. And, um, so it was an old Conoco Oil executive retreat. So it's a resort, five hundred and forty-three acre ranch, uh, that is the opposite of a hospital selling. Uh, the people that can come to it is with the Warrior population, and that's for those that face life and death on a daily basis as a profession. So we have active duty clients, we have veterans, we have law enforcement, we have first responders, you know, and anybody that meets that description.

• 4:20:12Shawn Ryan?

  You know, I want to jump in and say something, you know, is, this is... One thing I love is this is not a nonprofit.

• 4:20:23Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:20:24Shawn Ryan?

  You had mentioned that this takes TRICARE, this takes insurance, this takes all kinds of other things, regular payment.

• 4:20:32Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 4:20:33Shawn Ryan?

  You know, and, and the other thing that I love is, which you had just mentioned, but I want to reiterate is, this is for everyone. Correct?

• 4:20:45Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 4:20:45Shawn Ryan?

  This is for special ops, this is for...

• 4:20:47Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 4:20:48Shawn Ryan?

  This is for conventional, this is for first responders, firefighters, law enforcement. Everybody. Everybody who experiences...

• 4:20:57Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 4:20:59Shawn Ryan?

  Traumatic events.

• 4:21:00Speaker 06

  Yeah, man.

• 4:21:01Shawn Ryan?

  Is welcome.

• 4:21:02Speaker 06

  Absolutely. And that's why it sounds cliche. It's not, but it's like from nine eleven to a nine one one call. You know what I mean? Those are our people.

• 4:21:10Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:21:11Speaker 06

  When your family's in need, my family's in need, like, these are the ones that that we call and they come and save us. Like, so now they need save. I don't like using the word save. They need assistance, you know? Who's helping them out?

• 4:21:26Shawn Ryan?

  And over three thousand people have been through this treatment program.

• 4:21:31Speaker 06

  Yeah, yep, over three thousand.

• 4:21:33Shawn Ryan?

  How many?

• 4:21:36Shawn Ryan?

  Do you know the success rate?

• 4:21:38Speaker 06

  Yeah, and there's always percentages. So I can give some of them is, uh, so the success rate, we have a ninety percent success rate in completion of the course. Cause we, this is training. It's a training course. You get cleaned up, you get trained up. You know what I mean? You need to learn how to be trained, how to live without self medicating with drug and alcohol and handle your emotions and behave appropriately. You know, so it's a training course. So it's, uh, we have a ninety percent completion rate on a forty two day course. So the industry standard on a twenty eight day course is like fifty percent. So we're already winning, you know what I mean in that? And the, and the big reason of that, man, is, is it truly is warriors healing warriors. Like, you don't have to talk about,

• 4:22:21Speaker 06

  that's why we kept it this population only. You don't have to talk about mentorship or leadership. You see someone suffering, you go and help them. If you see the new guy, you come and help them. So all that naturally occurs, you know, and so that all happens. Then, um, whenever it comes to, we're probably at about a sixty percent rate as far as folks that leave and stay sober. But it's normally twenty to thirty.

• 4:22:42Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 4:22:43Speaker 06

  And that's on a, and that's, but that's included. It always like just thrown in, that's including the guys that's one day sober, who may not make it to five. But that's also they're including the guy that's a year sober. You know what I mean? So it's a big spread in there. So it's kind of the success rate, you know, is. And some guys relapse a few times before they get it right, you know what I mean? On that beam, some of them, it's like any hard military course. Some people come and make it, they were meant for it, make it straight through. They're good to go, happily ever after. Some people get recycled, you know what I mean? Need some retraining, then make it through. Some people just didn't know what they were getting into and they're not ready yet, you know? So that's, if you look at it as a training course, same way as any hard military school.

• 4:23:28Speaker 06

  That's how it is, man. So that camaraderie and that peer network is built immediately. That's the first thing that makes it different than anything else, because they've missed it. They're isolated, they've gone, you know, I mean, they're away from the tribe, man. So they come back and, and...

• 4:23:53Speaker 06

  So part of the thing is, is that, uh...

• 4:24:00Speaker 06

  The first thing that they hear, whenever they get out there to us, is "Welcome home."

• 4:24:06Speaker 06

  You know, so, uh, a lot of people are clichic with that, and to some people it is. But for those who know, uh, you know, it means everything, you know? So that's the thing about Warrior's Heart is where, is, uh, is where the lost find their way home. It's where the broken find their power, and it's where the forgotten are remembered forever. You know, so when they roll into that environment, it's different, man. You know what I mean? It's obviously, we have a lot of what I call, and I don't say this negatively, it's because I'm one of them, of educated consumers, like they've tried different rehabs and different hea- heating modality, treating modalities.

• 4:24:46Speaker 06

  So, you know, I mean, that's why I always say, I'm gonna tell you how great and how awesome and all this kind of stuff, but always ask an end user, write your reviews, you know, and all of that. And, um, yeah, man, it's, but it's the peer network. And the difference is, is that, I mean, we're one person, man. I can't go to this rehab to work on my chemical dependency, chemical dependency, and this rehab to work on my PTS, like, fuck.

• 4:25:10Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:25:10Speaker 06

  One of them feeds the other, you know? Do I drink because of all the PTS? Or because of all the PTS, I drink? Like, chicken or the egg, who gives a shit, like?

• 4:25:19Shawn Ryan?

  So this is a...

• 4:25:20Speaker 06

  We gotta handle both, man. So they get, it was totally industry standard. So industry standards, you get one clinician... One time a week, one on one. Warrior's Heart, they get two, two times a week, one on ones and two small caseload groups. And that's where the trauma counselor and a licensed chemical dependency counselor, these are licensed professionals, not, not hitting on any folks that are helping, you know, or peer support, but these are licensed professionals. And obviously, they have to be badass to hear our kinds of stories. You know what I mean? On the regular, every day, multiple times a day. So we've got that piece going on, man, because we're healing both of them at the same time.

• 4:26:04Speaker 06

  Because you have, you can't address the trauma without, you know, one or the other.

• 4:26:09Shawn Ryan?

  Man.

• 4:26:09Speaker 06

  Because on that ranch, man, and we do modalities like, hey, we're governed by the state licensing of doing different rehab 101 stuff, man, but we have a metal shop, a wood shop, an art shop. We have fishing lakes, we have yoga, nature hikes, all the different things, because we have to have an outlet. I don't want to talk about my fucking feelings anymore. You know what I mean? I don't want to, you know, I just need to break, man, because 42 days, and when we work them, man, from 07:00 in the morning to 20:30 at night, they are occupied, earning their way. It's not a get along and get by. If you're not going with the program, you'll be administratively discharged. I mean, it's, but it's our population, like, we understand those kinds of things, you know,

• 4:26:54Speaker 06

  like, make me work for it, so it, so it's meaningful, so it means something. Hold me accountable, or I'm gonna, I can't stop screwing up, you know? And nobody goes to rehab on an upswing. You know what I'm saying? It's, um...

• 4:27:07Shawn Ryan?

  How do people find it?

• 4:27:09Speaker 06

  Man, the easiest way, I think, is warriorsheart.com.

• 4:27:12Shawn Ryan?

  We'll link it in the description.

• 4:27:14Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:27:14Shawn Ryan?

  But, um, well, Tom, we're wrapping up and...

• 4:27:22Shawn Ryan?

  Man, thank you.

• 4:27:26Speaker 06

  My pleasure. You're welcome.

• 4:27:28Shawn Ryan?

  Thank you for coming out and, and um, it's just amazing what you're doing. And uh, it's an honor to have you here and I'm glad we finally met.

• 4:27:38Speaker 06

  Yeah, me too, man. Thank you too.

• 4:27:41Shawn Ryan?

  But um, and thank you for being an example. You know, it's uh, you've impacted a lot of people, man. And uh, you just, thank you and continue to keep doing that.

• 4:27:58Speaker 06

  I mean, it's just, it's incredible.

• 4:28:02Shawn Ryan?

  So, it's been my honor.

• 4:28:13Speaker 08

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• 4:28:56Speaker 08

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