#274 Tim Ferriss - Life-Changing Practical Wisdom Backed by Experience and Science

Tim Ferriss is the author of five #1 New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestsellers, including The 4-Hour Workweek, The 4-Hour Body, and The 4-Hour Chef. His podcast, The Tim Ferriss Show, has surpassed one billion downloads and is widely regarded as the “Oprah of audio.” Named as one of Fortune’s “40 Under 40,” Tim is an early-stage technology investor/advisor (Uber, Facebook, Shopify, Duolingo, Alibaba, and 50+ others) and was ranked among the “Top 20 Angel Investors” by Forbes. A Princeton University graduate (BA 2000, East Asian Studies), Tim is a polyglot who speaks five languages to different degrees, a national Chinese kickboxing champion, the first American in history to hold a Guinness World Record in tango spins, and a practiced horseback archer (yabusame) in Japan. His business ventures include bootstrapping a nootropics company (BrainQUICKEN) to millions in revenue before selling it in 2010, launching the audiobook imprint Tim Ferriss Publishing with Amazon Audible (responsible for modern classics like Ego Is the Enemy and The Obstacle Is the Way), and co-creating the hit card game COYOTE (2025) with Exploding Kittens creator Elan Lee—now sold in over 8,000 stores worldwide including Target, Walmart, and Amazon. Known for normalizing vulnerability while achieving massive success, Tim pioneered the remote-work and lifestyle-design movements pre-pandemic, popularized biohacking, and has served as an advisor at Singularity University and a 2009 Henry Crown Fellow at the Aspen Institute. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: Upgrade your wallet today and get 10% off at Ridge with code SRS at https://www. Ridge.com/SRS #Ridgepod Go to https://shopbeam.com/SRS and use code SRS to get up to 50% off Beam Dream Nighttime Cocoa—grab it for just $32.50 and improve your sleep today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at https://shopify.com/srs Tim Ferriss Links: The No Book free chapters - https://tim.blog/nobook Everything Tim – https://tim.blog Podcast – https://tim.blog/podcast X – https://x.com/tferriss Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/timferriss YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/timferriss COYOTE Game – https://www.explodingkittens.com/products/coyote Books - https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B001ILKBW2/allbooks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 0:34Shawn Ryan?

  Tim Ferriss. Yes, sir. Welcome to the show, man. Thanks for having me. Great to be here. Thank you for coming. Absolutely. My pleasure. This is a little surreal for me. So it's very cool to meet you in person. Really, really cool. So me and my entire team have been really pumped about this. Awesome. Thank you. But, man, I want to kick it right off with an introduction here. So everybody gets an intro. Tim Ferriss, one of the most interesting people in the world. This could easily be a four-hour introduction. Host of a monster podcast, The Tim Ferriss Show, with world-class guests and over a billion downloads. Author of five number-one New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestsellers,

• 1:19Shawn Ryan?

  all aimed at helping people improve performance across many domains. A Princeton-educated polyglot, you speak five languages to five different degrees. An early angel investor who wrote checks to Uber, Shopify, Twitter, and Duolingo before most people knew what they were. An early advocate for psychedelic therapy and the philanthropist behind the Sase Foundation, pushing boundaries of mental health treatment. You put real skin in the game. Did I say that right? Sase. Sase, excuse me. The first American in history to hold a Guinness Book, a Guinness World Record, and Tango Spence. And, Tim, I started a book myself.

• 2:04Shawn Ryan?

  It's called The Never-Ending Work Week. So.

• 2:08Shawn Ryan?

  Just, yeah. Can send them as a, we can sell them as a pair. Yeah. But, um.

• 2:15Shawn Ryan?

  A common thing that I think that everybody sees in you is you are always early to the game, man. You are always ahead and uh it's really cool to see.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  Thanks, man. Yeah, I just try to track what the weirdos are doing on the weekends with their free time.

• 2:31Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, you were talking about hormones and cold plunge and all this stuff way, way, way before all the influencers came out. So.

• 2:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's been uh, yes, the Four Hour Body was 2010, which meant I started writing in 2008. So I remember having a first generation continuous glucose monitor. This is back when I basically had to fall off the back of a truck because Dexcom was only selling to type one diabetics. And the older continuous glucose monitors basically had these prongs, looked almost like something you'd use for a barbecue that you had to put under, into your abdomen sideways. And then you had this, no smartphone, beeper-like device to track it. So unpleasant.

• 3:15Shawn Ryan?

  So how long did you have that thing on? I remember reading the book, but I feel like it was like 10, 15 years ago.

• 3:22Speaker 02

  It was a long time. 2010 is when it came out.

• 3:24Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, so it was.

• 3:25Speaker 02

  So I was using it. I was using the device quite a bit before that. Had to tape plastic over it to allow me to take showers. I probably had that in for a good month or so. It was enough time to make it worthwhile. I mean, more recently, I've done lots of tests with much more pleasant wearables and so on. But a lot of that holds up, like the durability of the stuff in that book. Like, there are a few tweaks I would make, but by and large, everything has more scientific support now.

• 3:57Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  And it's not super surprising. Like, sometimes people in the field get things wrong. But if you want to track, let's just say, what is going to be more validated by exercise science and randomized controlled trials five years from now, it's like, go talk to the coaches on the field, right? Actually see what the athletes are doing. The people who have huge incentives to win.

• 4:19Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:19Speaker 02

  The people who are playing that game, like, they're always going to be pushing the envelope. And they might be trying nonsense. So you have to have some framework for separating nonsense from like, plausible, like, this might be a thing. But if you do that, if somebody wanted to write the equivalent of the Four Hour Body now, it's like, yeah, just go to the front lines.

• 4:37Shawn Ryan?

  Right on.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  And figure it out.

• 4:39Shawn Ryan?

  Right on.

• 4:41Shawn Ryan?

  Tim, I got a couple of gifts for you. Everybody gets a gift.

• 4:44Speaker 02

  Alright.

• 4:44Shawn Ryan?

  You ready?

• 4:45Speaker 02

  I'm ready.

• 4:45Shawn Ryan?

  Alright.

• 4:46Speaker 02

  Alright.

• 4:46Shawn Ryan?

  First gift, everybody gets this.

• 4:50Shawn Ryan?

  I doubt you'll eat them, but it's Vigilance League gummy bears. Made in the USA, legal in all 50 states, still to this day.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  I love gummy bears.

• 5:01Shawn Ryan?

  Good.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you.

• 5:02Shawn Ryan?

  And then, um, you know, I-

• 5:05Speaker 02

  This will be next Saturday for me.

• 5:06Shawn Ryan?

  I know you're, I think you love picking up new hobbies.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  I do.

• 5:10Shawn Ryan?

  So, I got you a little something. I got some buddies over at Sig Sauer, one of them's named Jason.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 5:15Shawn Ryan?

  He's a huge fan of yours.

• 5:17Speaker 02

  And so am I.

• 5:19Shawn Ryan?

  So, we thought, we thought you might enjoy this.

• 5:23Speaker 02

  Yes. Amazing. You know, I was just going to sell my M and P 45. And this is the perfect replacement.

• 5:33Shawn Ryan?

  Perfect.

• 5:34Speaker 02

  So, I am very excited about this.

• 5:37Shawn Ryan?

  Hold it up. That's the, uh, Sig P211 GTO. It's a 2011 pistol. It's Sig's, uh, first attempt at the 2011. I think they did a fantastic job.

• 5:48Speaker 02

  Beautiful.

• 5:49Shawn Ryan?

  And that's the, uh, new optic. So, maybe we can break that thing on, uh, on the break.

• 5:53Speaker 02

  Would love to.

• 5:54Shawn Ryan?

  Cool. Let's do it.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Thank you so much. And who is your friend?

• 5:57Shawn Ryan?

  Jason.

• 5:57Speaker 02

  Jason.

• 5:58Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, he's over at Sig.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  Gotta learn, learn how to use these professional mic. Thank you, Jason. I appreciate that. That's beautiful. Thank you.

• 6:06Shawn Ryan?

  And then, before we get too in the weeds with the interview, I have a Patreon account. It's a subscription account and, uh, we've turned it into one hell of a community. So, one of the things I do is, um, I offer them the opportunity to ask every single guest a question. So, this is from Scott J. Batagoli. "In the last five years, what new belief, behavior, or habit has most improved your life? And how would you relate it to the struggles of young men just starting out in life?"

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Good question. Behavior, belief.

• 6:46Speaker 02

  I'm gonna throw out a few. I'll give people a grab bag. So I would say I'll start with the first thing that comes to mind, which is on the physical side. And I've really changed how I think about this after doing a lot of experimentation. Intermittent fasting is gonna seem like a strange place to start. Intermittent fasting, so time restricted eating where you're fasting, in my case, I'm fasting until 2:00 or 3:00 PM every day, more or less. And doing that for, say, even three months,

• 7:21Speaker 02

  did a few things. And N of 1, so your mileage may vary, but there's a lot of good science around intermittent fasting. Mark Mattson is one scientist that comes to mind. And there are certain issues that I've always had with my blood work. Certain issues I've had with, for instance, fasting glucose, insulin. And you can measure these things. If you're just doing blood tests, I would also, I'm not a doctor, don't play one on the internet, but consider asking your doctor about something called an oral glucose tolerance test. And no matter what I did, I could be vegan, I could be carnivore, I could be something in between.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  There were certain numbers that always looked bad. They would just not change. Seemed to come from buggy code, DNA, genetics. And a few months of intermittent fasting gave me the most immaculate corrections to those markers that I and my doctors have ever seen. And I've been tracking No kidding. very long time. Furthermore, and here's why it ties into more than just the physical, because the mind and the body, or at least let's just call it the brain and the body, are really one interconnected super organism, right? The mood swings, the dip in energy in the afternoon that often leads people to drink coffee, which then affects their sleep architecture, which then can create lack of sleep, depression,

• 8:46Speaker 02

  etc. I mean, all these things cascade. All of those ups and downs just vanish completely. And I think there's some good reasons for it. And part of the reason people feel sharper on GLP-1 agonists, like the Ozempics and Munjars of the world, is they're more ketotic, they're producing more ketones. So the reason you want to fast for at least 16 hours is to deplete your liver of glycogen, and so you get that metabolic switching into using ketones. And that's relevant to mental health, because most people will experience a lot more mood stability. All right. So that's the first thing, intermittent fasting. If you want to talk about fasting, we can talk about it, because I've done much more extreme versions of that. But intermittent fasting, I think, is pretty easy, in the sense that

• 9:30Speaker 02

  you don't have to change what you eat, you're just changing when you eat. That makes it...

• 9:34Shawn Ryan?

  I know, I know, I know that everybody does this. I've not looked into it, just I don't know why, just because I just fucking do it every day. Because, not because I'm trying to intermittent fast, just because I don't have time to eat. But, so what, I mean, what are the benefits of it?

• 9:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I'll say a few things. The first is, what you're discussing, like intermittent fasting by default, is, seems to be super common in former, like, tier-one military.

• 10:06Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 10:07Speaker 02

  A lot of my friends, almost all of my friends who are former SEALs, or former Marine Force Recon, they're just like, "Oh yeah, I forgot to eat, and I'm just gonna eat at 5pm." Right? And they're not affected by it, which leads me to wonder, like, how much of it is cultivated in the course of being in service versus, like, part of what allowed you to make it through is that type of physiological resistance, where you have, like, a certain degree of stability, I don't know. So the benefits are, and we're still so far from understanding these things well, in part because it's very hard to get, intermittent fasting you can do, but doing extended fasting studies in humans is incredibly difficult for getting ethical approvals from IRB and so on. But...

• 10:52Speaker 02

  I'd say the simplest way of describing it is, and we could certainly talk more about this, but if you look at, say, my family and very common neurodegenerative disease, it's not just tangles and plaques and so on that cause problems, it's metabolic dysfunction. So if you have chronically elevated insulin, glucose, et cetera, it's basically an amplifier for any possible problems and those compound over time as your body accumulates garbage. So the very simple way of putting it. But if you are developing the metabolic machinery for that switching I was talking about, your body gets better at things like autophagy, mitophagy, sort of cellular self-cleaning.

• 11:37Speaker 02

  So your cleanup crew gets better, if that makes sense. Hmm. It's a very simplistic way to put it, but I think it's a fair way to think about it. And that is part of the reason, if you look at, and I don't want to oversell this, but fasting, in a sense, is the oldest cure. If you look at animals, if they get sick, what do they do? At least mammals, most like ungulates, like deer and so on, they fast. And if we get sick, we don't want to eat. Your appetite's gone. Yeah, but then we'll often force ourselves to eat, eating by the clock. And I would say that the details do matter, like that depletion of liver glycogen from at least the reading and research I've done seems to matter a lot.

• 12:22Speaker 02

  So much like a ketogenic diet, if you do it halfway, you're actually not getting a lot of the benefits that the protocol seems to offer. So I would say that's one. I'll switch gears for a second, I'm happy to come back to intermittent fasting, but I would say in terms of beliefs and behaviors, I would say a focus on, just to really zoom out, focus on investing in, and I have very specific ways that I do this, relationships.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  And the way that looks is if I do a past year review, as I'm doing right now, looking back on the past year, and I look through my calendar, week by week, and identify the energy giving and energy draining activities. And where were the peak positive and where were the peak negative? But also, what types of things in my calendar drained me versus energized me? And then creating a do more of column and a do less of column. It's very easy to do it on a single piece of paper. But the crux piece of that, that I ignored for a long time, was, alright, if you have a parking lot, and that parking lot has five to 10 slots for your most important relationships, family, closest friends.

• 13:35Speaker 02

  Last year, did you spend as much time as you would like to with those people? If the answer is no, which it usually is, then I'm gonna schedule time in advance, book and pay for things for the following year, calendar it before it gets crowded out immediately. And so that could be long weekends, could be group dinners. It could be, as I'm gonna be doing soon, hosting friends. It could be time in Montana wilderness, which was a couple of months ago. But getting all that stuff on the calendar and creating some loss aversion by, whenever possible, paying in advance, doesn't have to be expensive,

• 14:15Speaker 02

  but creating a situation where it's very hard for you to cancel and get out of things. That, I think, is the facet of self-help, in quotation marks, that gets lost. If you focus on the self, the paradox of self-help is if you excessively focus on the self, it is almost inevitable that you're gonna be miserable. Like, humans are not... The self-sufficiency, sort of mantra of self-help, if you combine it with like the rugged individualism of the US, which has a lot of upside, but if you take both of those in excess, people end up feeling very isolated. And so, the investing in relationships,

• 14:59Speaker 02

  and I do mean investing, like really blocking out that time, in the last five years, that's been, that's been the single domino that tipped over, changes everything. Last thing, the third thing I'll mention and then I'll stop my TED Talk is.

• 15:14Shawn Ryan?

  How many relationships do you manage?

• 15:17Speaker 02

  Not many. I really prefer very deep relationships over a broad network.

• 15:26Shawn Ryan?

  I'm the same way.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:27Shawn Ryan?

  How do you determine who you're going to spend your time with? I mean, I'm asking, now I'm learning.

• 15:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:35Shawn Ryan?

  And so I am very curious.

• 15:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:37Shawn Ryan?

  And you have a huge name, you're a huge household name. You've been around for a long time. A lot of people want to get to you. They want to talk to you. They want to pick your brain. They want something from you.

• 15:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:47Shawn Ryan?

  How do you, how do you determine who you're going to give your time to?

• 15:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'd say there are, there are different tiers. So I do have, let's just call it, shallow is not the right word because that sounds very negative. I do have a wide network. And I just set parameters around what is allowed and what isn't allowed in those relationships that might have more of a purely business context. But at the very top, I would say, I am giving the most time to people who are more than happy to call me on my bullshit. Tell me my baby's ugly. Whatever I might be precious about or really excited about, they're happy to tell me that it's a bad idea. If it comes down to it. So that is non-negotiable.

• 16:36Speaker 02

  Right? Otherwise, right? If someone's not willing to do that, raises a lot of questions about what motivations might be. Like if the emperor has no clothes, I want to know that I'm naked. Even though in the moment, I might find it very annoying, right? If I'm really attached to something, but you need those people around you. So what that means is they're very often old friends. These are people I've known for 15, 20 years. First met in sports competition or in school or something like that.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  Then I would say it's really simple. It's energy in versus energy out. Cause you might have somebody at a dinner party who's happy to tell you all your ideas are terrible. But that person's also terrible. Or maybe there's just something slightly off and your spider sense doesn't know what it is. Can't put a finger on it, but for whatever reason, whenever you come away from them, you feel just 10% drained. And you don't really want to have a second dinner with that person. I pay a lot of attention to that. I feel like language, analysis, spreadsheets, all helpful. But relative to our entire evolutionary apparatus, that's really new. So I pay a lot of attention to the millions of years of animal sensitivity.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  If that's, and I used to be, I'm so, I used to view emotion and intuition as basically kind of horseshit, for lack of a better description, like things that would always lead you astray. Therefore you need structured thinking and so on, which there's a place for. I'm not saying there isn't a place for it. But if I get a weird feeling around somebody, like I pay a lot of attention to that. Even if on paper, they should be. You do pay attention to intuition. I do. I thought you were, okay. No, no, I pay, I pay more and more and more attention to it. But for decades, I was just like, yeah, look like emotions are a liability. They can lead you astray.

• 18:31Speaker 02

  And in excess, again, in excess, that's true. But I would say in terms of determining who I'm going to spend time with, it's like, if that person calls you, do you want to pick up the phone or not? And if you're like, ah, like, um, not now, maybe I'll get back to them. Like, that's not a small thing. Like some of my friends are really good investors called the beer test. And the beer test, it's really simple. It's like, if you're walking around, like if you're walking outside in a mall and somebody, founder you invested in is walking the other way, are you going to do, are you going to do this? Or are you going to walk over and be like, hey man, so good to see you. Hey, we should grab a beer. Which one is it? Because with say startup investing, and everybody should treat their relationship this way.

• 19:13Speaker 02

  But in startup investing, just to give a concrete example, it's like the biggest successes for me, takes seven to 12 years. That is longer than most marriages. And smart isn't good enough. Hardworking isn't good enough. You could have somebody with low integrity, who is very smart and very hardworking. That is a dangerous person.

• 19:33Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 19:33Speaker 02

  Right, so like the beer test. Okay, do they pass the beer test or not? Uh, but it's even easier than that. It's like you go through your calendar and it's like, do you have a whole body yes to this person or not? And if the answer is yes, then not just the question of who you spend time with, but the question of what you do gets a lot easier. Because if one of those people invites me to do something, even if I think it's the most harebrained idiotic idea, I am default yes, based on the who, not on the what.

• 20:06Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  So that's like the very, very top, right? Those, that's the five to 10, maybe 15 parking spots. And then one level down, I would say broadly, I'm looking for as much learning as possible and combined with sort of honesty and EQ. So if I can find those three things, the EQ is not trivial. Right? Then I will invest time in those people.

• 20:39Shawn Ryan?

  Right on.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:41Shawn Ryan?

  What do you think?

• 20:41Speaker 02

  It's easy to get squeezed, it's easy to get squeezed out of your own life.

• 20:45Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 20:45Speaker 02

  Though it is. So this has been fine tuning over decades. Uh, cause otherwise it's just like email becomes everyone else's agenda for your life. And your calendar evaporates, boom, you're done. Which is why at the beginning of the year, it's like block out that time with those close relationships, book it, invite people. So you're gonna look like an ass if you cancel? Like get things in motion so that ship's out of the harbor.

• 21:10Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  And then, and then you have defensible space in your calendar that you will defend. Yeah.

• 21:19Shawn Ryan?

  You had mentioned intuition. Where do you think intuition comes from?

• 21:24Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 21:27Speaker 02

  I'm gonna buy myself a little time to tap dance. Where do you think intuition comes from?

• 21:37Shawn Ryan?

  I think it's a combination of

• 21:41Shawn Ryan?

  something you're born with and

• 21:45Shawn Ryan?

  the ability to self-reflect on situations in your life to gain the experience.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  So it depends on how into crazy town we want to go, but I'll say that

• 22:02Speaker 02

  on at least one level, 100% I'm on the same page in the sense that it's pattern matching born of experience, right? So that's one piece of what we might call intuition. Very fast judgment based on pattern matching. Pattern recognition. Then there's another piece of it that I think is you know, along the lines of maybe the gift of fear, Gavin DeBecker type stuff where there's an evolved sense, there's a sensitivity that perhaps you can't herbalize.

• 22:40Speaker 02

  Maybe can't even justify, maybe it runs counter to the conclusion you would come to analytically, but it's just some gnawing feeling. I don't know how to explain that. I just, I think it's a byproduct probably of evolution. Then there's then I think there's, there are other other ways we could think about intuition that I have a much harder time explaining, but

• 23:05Shawn Ryan?

  like what? Like remote viewing?

• 23:08Speaker 02

  Uh, well, we could, yeah, remote viewing or you could look at people who seem to have, and I recognize there are 100 ways to

• 23:23Speaker 02

  put up a pretty good steel man argument against these things, but people who seem to have experiences of precognition. But we don't even have to get out into that territory. We could look at animal behavior. There's a great book I recommend to everyone. It's a beautiful book called Of Wolves and Men. About effectively the, the history of wolves and man.

• 23:46Speaker 02

  But it dives into the biology of wolves, their mythological significance, how they're viewed by various indigenous cultures. And it redefined what was possible within nonfiction writing. It's by someone named Barry Lopez, incredible writer. And I recommend this book to everyone. It's an older book. It's a few decades old. When that book came out, people in, let's just call it that category of book were like, oh, okay, there's kind of a before this book and then after. Because he's shown what is possible. And in that book, I think it's the Nunavut people, could be mispronouncing that. But he was talking about their observations of wolves and hunting patterns.

• 24:29Speaker 02

  And how also with modern technology and radio callers and so on, you'll see sort of, let's just call it wolves traveling. And then to intersect a herd of caribou, they'll turn perfectly from 100 miles away and then intersect, right? And so you could try to explain that through scent. You could, but it starts to fall apart pretty quickly, right? Or you look at, let's just say, kind of spontaneous coordination of starling or fish school behavior.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  And sort of phenomena that are very difficult to explain mechanistically exists. They just, they just do. And so you don't even need to necessarily step into things that people, some folks are gonna get very hot and bothered about like remote viewing, which I do actually think is very interesting. But if you just look at animal behavior, what we might call instinct becomes very hard to pin down. So that's a very fancy way of saying, I'm not really sure. But whatever, whatever the inputs might be, I just, I have started, I have paid more and more and more attention to it.

• 25:51Speaker 02

  I pay attention to it with everything, people, girlfriends, investing, right? Sometimes it's the flip side, right? You've had Toby of Shopify on the show. And it's like, when I spent time with Toby and Harley, I got this sort of physiological quickening. I don't get it much. It's not like this happens all the time.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  You do have to be careful about not fooling yourself, right? It's very easy to fool yourself and to look for evidence, confirmation bias, et cetera, to support we already believe. But in cases like that, I was like, oh, there was like a physiological quickening. And I had my analytical kind of hat on, looking at Shopify as a business and stuff when they had like nine or 10 employees, but also just being around those guys, I was like, oh yeah, these are good horses to bet on, really good horses to bet on. So it's not just a warning system, right? It can also be a go signal.

• 26:48Speaker 02

  But for people who may not find this to make any sense, I would say you can re-access these things that you had as a kid. You can cultivate those sensitivities. It just takes practice and you can start by doing a past year review, go through, be like, all right, what gave me energy and what didn't? That's usually pretty straightforward. And if you're not sure, if you're like, ah, I'm not sure, da, da, da, da, there's your answer. I don't know if anybody's seen the movie Ronin, some really great chase scenes and so on with Robert De Niro, but there's a quote in there that I'm paraphrasing, but I'm pretty close, like, when in doubt, there is no doubt. So if you're hemming and hawing, it's like, yeah, there's your answer. It's not a yes. It's not a whole body yes.

• 27:33Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think we've lost intuition over time, the human species?

• 27:39Speaker 02

  I would say.

• 27:40Shawn Ryan?

  Maybe look at animals, oh, I can't think of anything that doesn't.

• 27:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that humans have, in some ways, understandably, like, obsolesced intuition or allowed it to atrophy. In the same way that if you become dependent on Google Maps, you no longer need to develop that faculty, right? If you look at, for instance, some of the literature that's been published recently, looking at cognitive performance pre and post AI, or looking at, rather, degrees of AI usage or LLM usage and cognitive performance, like, yeah, okay, if you're relying on something. You're using an exoskeleton for walking. What's going to happen to your legs? They're going to atrophy, of course.

• 28:29Speaker 02

  Your body's really smart. It doesn't want to put calories and building into anything that's redundant, right? You take exogenous testosterone. If you're getting injections, guess what? Your balls are going to turn into raisinettes. Body's smart. It's not going to say, yeah, let's pump a bunch of hormones to the lytic cells to produce testosterone. It's not. It's very, very, very smart. So I'm very cautious of the technologies that I adopt. And actually, there's a great guy. If you've never talked to him, you should meet him. He's fascinating. Has a big Amish-looking beard named Kevin Kelly, older guy. But he's a technologist who's one of the most incredibly accurate futurists I've ever met. Like, his ability to predict things is off the charts.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  He's like the American tech Nostradamus or something. Interesting. What's his name? Usually Kevin Kelly. Kevin Kelly? Yeah. He's in his 70s now, and he is, by the way, probably 10 to 20 times more popular in China than he is in the US, which is a whole separate conversation, but they pay a lot of attention to him. Nonetheless, he has literally spent time with the Amish to study how they accept or reject technology. Really? Yeah. He was a founding editor of Wired magazine. You think that he just would adopt everything and let trial and error sort itself out in his own life. But no, he studies how the Amish evaluate technology. Because despite what some people might think, it's not like they don't actually use technology.

• 29:57Speaker 02

  They're very, very methodical about how they evaluate it. So that is the way I would think of any of this augmentation, whether it's what people would consider no tropics and smart drugs or any type of enhancement, which would include Google Maps, AI, et cetera. Like, right now, for instance, I write.

• 30:20Speaker 02

  AI is, LLMs are getting incredibly good at writing. And I saw a piece recently, I think it was in The New Yorker, but a Pulitzer Prize winner, or some incredible writer, tested an LLM and provided very educated test readers with sample prose, and the vast majority couldn't tell the difference. No kidding? Yeah. Wow. Trained on his or her own writing. So the temptation to use it is there, and I'll use it for editing suggestions, but as soon as I use that as my primary mode of writing, it's just gonna be too tempting. It's like digital heroin. And ultimately, I may travel down that path, but the point is that I'm being very cautious

• 31:05Speaker 02

  with it, because I know that that certain faculties will atrophy. Wow. And I don't know what the consequences of that are, because if those faculties start to atrophy, and I'm not a Luddite, like I use tons of technology, I invest in tons of technology on the cutting edge, but what are the secondary or tertiary effects of that? It's probably not just writing essays, right? There's probably a higher cost to be paid, and I just wanna have a better understanding what that costs. How will you find out with that understanding? I mean, how will you find that? Probably hang out for a while at the periphery and see what people are finding, right? Talk to researchers. It is not hard to talk to researchers.

• 31:48Speaker 02

  I'll also use, you know, I'll kinda use certain AI-enabled tools to evaluate the AI itself. So there are like websites like consensus.app or Open Evidence. There are tools you can use that make it a lot easier to interrogate published scientific literature with just basic queries that kinda anyone would come up with or could come up with. So with certain things, I like to be on the cutting edge. With other things, like what we're talking about, I really like to be on the dull edge. I don't wanna be one of the first thousand monkeys shot into space with, oh, I'm gonna wait, you know, you wanna colonize Mars? Great, I'll maybe I'll be, I'll be, I'll be two billionth in line.

• 32:33Speaker 02

  I'm right there with you. Go spend, go spend a month in Antarctica in the winter first and tell me how you like it. Yeah, yeah, I am with you on that.

• 32:45Shawn Ryan?

  You know, I wanted to ask you, you know, it's the, it's the, it's new year, you know, we're about a weekend to 2026. And so I wanted to ask you, I don't know about fear setting versus goal setting.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:59Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. So I'd love to chat with you about that. What is it?

• 33:02Speaker 02

  Sure. Yeah. So fear setting is something that I effectively found through Stoicism. So the philosophy of Stoicism and people can certainly find a lot of great books written contemporary, you know, in a contemporary sense by Ryan Holiday, The Obstacles, The Way. I actually produced the audiobook for that book.

• 33:30Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding.

• 33:30Speaker 02

  Back in the day. And one of his first early writings on Stoicism was a blog post on my blog way back in the day. And at that point, we resonated on Stoicism because I had been traveling almost always with a copy of Letters from a Stoic, which are the moral letters to Lucilius by Seneca the Younger. Now, Seneca the Younger, controversial character for a bunch of reasons, but very, very, very skilled writer and proponent of Stoicism. And in effect, one of the practices that he would encourage is, he had a number of

• 34:13Speaker 02

  them, but it was, it was in effect, defining your fears, thinking about the worst case scenarios. So there was a mental component to it. There was also a practiced component, which would, which would be, and actually Kevin Kelly does this as well. So in effect, practicing the thing that you most fear, like poverty. So like Kevin Kelly, this is a good example, modern example, like he sometimes will go a week or two, just as a practice, like sleeping in his living room in a sleeping bag, eating like rice and beans and instant coffee. And Kevin isn't really afraid of most things, but what you realize, and you realize this too, if you go on a week long camping trip, you're like, this is actually pretty sweet. I don't actually need that much.

• 34:58Shawn Ryan?

  Simpler times.

• 35:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 35:00Shawn Ryan?

  That's what I've noticed.

• 35:01Speaker 02

  And when you prove that to yourself. You recognize that the downside risk on a lot of what you might be considering, taking a new job, proposing or ending a relationship, whatever it might be that you're nervous about, that you might be procrastinating or putting on pause, has very limited downside. The systematic way of doing that, I needed something a little more concrete for myself. I have been hypervigilant my whole life. There are good reasons for that that we can get into, but I've been very hypervigilant my whole life. Also have diagnosed OCD, which did not surprise any of my friends when it came about a couple of years ago.

• 35:46Speaker 02

  They're like, "Yeah, what a big surprise." Duh. Yeah, duh. I had the same response, but the point is that with generalized anxiety plus OCD, if you have that hypervigilance plus OCD, you ruminate, or I'll keep it personal. Like, I don't have the hand washing thing. I'm not flipping light switches. They're different manifestations of OCD, but I have these kind of endless ruminative loops. And they tend to relate to imagining worst-case scenarios. All right. And that can be really paralyzing if I want to bias towards action, which I prefer to do, right? Bias towards action instead of inaction. So what do you do? Well, reading the Stoicism and so on

• 36:30Speaker 02

  started to develop this approach, fear setting. I'll explain what it is. So what makes goal setting effective? What makes goal setting effective? There are different frameworks for this, like the SMART framework, specific, measurable, achievable, with timelines and so on. There are better and worse ways of defining your goals to make them more likely to be achieved, right? If you have accountability and you have timelines, you have a deadline, you have deliverables, et cetera. All that makes goal achieving easier. All right, well, what's fear setting? Fear setting, it's really simple. So if you have the thing that you're worried about, and this is what I still do to this day, I probably do it once a quarter,

• 37:14Speaker 02

  the thing you're nervous about could be...

• 37:19Speaker 02

  Starting your own business could be writing or finishing a book could be Getting cancer. Yeah, it could be getting cancer, right? It could be getting older, could be All times. One of your parents dying, could be whatever it might be.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  And to be clear, fear setting doesn't doesn't automatically solve all of these things, but here's here's what it does. It defangs a lot of them so you can take action. Let me explain what I mean. So if you're saying super simple, let's say the example is, in my case, I'll give a real like one of the very first huge examples was I'd started my own company. I was I was completely burned out around 2003, 2004. Had been working seven days a week and I wanted to take four weeks off. All right. Running my own business, how do you do that? Right? I've created this monster. I'm running it. I have single point of failure, me. And so all of these disasters came to mind, right?

• 38:20Speaker 02

  So what I do, I wrote them down. And there are there's an alternative approach called morning pages, which is slightly different, but I'll explain it. That's from Julia Cameron, who wrote The Artist's Way, really, really incredible practice, but I'll come back to that. So in fear setting, like at the top, I would put taking four weeks vacation. That's the thing I'm considering. Then in the in the first column, just write down all of the things that are freaking you out. That could go wrong in in as much detail as possible, right? So I would write down.

• 38:52Speaker 02

  I'm going to be overseas and I'm going to miss a letter from the IRS and then they're going to shut do this and this. And I'm going to get audited and blah, blah, blah. Okay, write it down. Boom. All right. Some I miss IRS letter, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All right. What's the next one? Next one is there's going to be some supply chain problem and like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, write that down. All right, like the president at the fulfillment company is going to get sick and then boom, like orders aren't going to ship. There's going to be this huge disaster. Okay, write it down. And so you write down all these things like aim for volume, right? Like 10 to 20 things. All right, that's column one. Then column two is what could I do to decrease the likelihood of this happening?

• 39:36Speaker 02

  Like anything I could do to try to prevent this? All right, great. So for the letter at the time, this is back in the day, keep in mind, early 2000s. But there still were services where you could have mail shipped. They would scan it and they would email you PDFs. It's like, okay, well, let me test out one of those services. I could do that. Okay. What about supply chain? All right, with supply chain issues, there were a few, there were a few components that I could basically stockpile in advance in case things were disrupted. And that would reduce like 80% of the risk. Okay, well, I can do that. All right, and you go down the list and there's probably something you can do to decrease the risk of that happening. All right, so now you have two columns. All the worst things that could happen, the things you could do to decrease the likelihood of them happening.

• 40:22Speaker 02

  All right, next column. Next column is if it happens, if that thing happens, what could you do for damage control? What could you do to possibly get back up on your feet? Right? It's like if you start a company and it fails, what could you get? A bartending job? Could you? So you go through every contingency plan? Yeah, so then it's like, what can you do to repair the situation? Just to get back to like life support, right? If needed, what can you do? There's always something you could do. So you write that down. Okay. Then you have to ask yourself two follow up questions. All right, so if I did this thing, I'm considering the four weeks of vacation. What are the payoffs and how durable are they? Right? Like what's the upside? I've talked about, you know, I've written down all the downside. What's the upside?

• 41:07Speaker 02

  And what's the durability? Okay, well, if I went on a four week vacation and I figured out how to run my business and automate things, I would come back and all those systems would still exist. Like I would have taken myself out of the machine. I would no longer be the Wizard of Oz having to control everything. Like, well, I mean, that could last years in terms of benefits, right? Okay, boom, boom, boom, we get on the list. What are all the benefits? How durable are they? And then you look at all the downsides and you're like, all right, how temporary or durable are these? What is the real downside risk? And I'll be done with this in just a minute or two. But it's important because people can do this. And I gave a TED talk on this for people who want to really dig in, but.

• 41:50Speaker 02

  The, what you realize often is that the thing you're considering, if it works, is like a seven to 10 on a scale of one to 10 in life-changing impact with durability, like it lasts for a while.

• 42:03Shawn Ryan?

  Hmm.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  And the things that you're scared of are like two, three, four in temporary pain. And they're either reversible or completely survivable. The last piece, and this is new in the last, I would say 15 years for me, uh, is on a separate piece of paper, you write down status quo. If I can just consider, if I can just continue doing what I'm doing, what is my life, what are the costs, right? Financially, emotionally, relationally, in one year from now, in three years from now, in 10 years from now. And you write that stuff down because we're very good at thinking about the risks of doing something, but we're not as trained to think about the risks of just continuing doing what we're doing. Right?

• 42:49Speaker 02

  And so when I looked at that, I was like, I don't think I can make it five years. 10 years, forget it. My life's a complete, utter disaster. It's like, okay, so now it's not a question of if, it's just a question of when.

• 43:02Shawn Ryan?

  Hmm.

• 43:03Speaker 02

  Okay. Now, when I look at these two things, right? Is doing this thing risky compared to status quo, one, three, five years from now? It's like, oh, this thing that I thought was scary is much lower risk. And then you do it. And like, that is what kicked off all of these adventures that led to the first book. And like, here we are. If I had not taken that vacation, I would not be sitting here.

• 43:28Shawn Ryan?

  That's interesting.

• 43:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:31Shawn Ryan?

  How do you find the balance, though? How do you find the balance? Because I could see, you know, um, people going, fuck, I'm going, I'm going for 16 weeks of vacation.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, here's what I would say is that fear setting, much like, doing goal setting doesn't achieve your goal.

• 43:51Shawn Ryan?

  It's almost daring yourself to do what you want to do.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  It's, it's daring yourself, here's what it is, it's daring yourself, what it's also saying is some of your fears will be well-founded.

• 44:03Shawn Ryan?

  Hmm.

• 44:04Speaker 02

  Right? There's certain things that could be catastrophic, but it's like 1%. Like, do not let your fears put an emergency brake on your life without cross-examining them. That's all it says is like, most of your fears are these phantasms in the fog that are scary because it's like the boogeyman, the lights are out. You haven't looked at it clearly. As soon as you write it down, you realize, flip the light switches on, boogeyman's not there. And then you can take action. But sure, there's certain things that are going to be scary no matter what. Right? Losing a relative to Alzheimer's, right? Someone you love or suffering some horrible injury. Right? These are all things that have real consequences.

• 44:49Speaker 02

  But your ability to survive and thrive, like your resilience is a lot greater than I think you realize in most cases. And you have a track record, like anyone who's made it this far, who's watching this right now, like you've survived a lot and you've figured out a lot, even when plans went sideways. So the fear setting fundamentally is, is, is a tool that you can do in like an hour. It doesn't even take an hour. That takes the emergency brake off. Doesn't matter how good your goal setting is, if you've got the emergency brake on. So that's, that's, I say, the, the principal purpose.

• 45:28Shawn Ryan?

  That's very interesting. You know, you had mentioned earlier about your friend who practiced being in poverty.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 45:36Shawn Ryan?

  And then found out, this isn't so bad. It's a lot simpler. Sounds like you maybe have experienced that as well.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do it every year. I do it every year.

• 45:44Shawn Ryan?

  You do it every year?

• 45:45Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. What do you do? Well, part of the reason I do the fasting too, I might do like seven to 10 day fasts. Certainly try to live a very minimalist existence for, you know, weeks at a time throughout the year to remove the hedonic treadmill that we're all vulnerable to. Right? It's like if you, man, if you live where we're sitting, right? In the United States, not for everyone, but broadly speaking, it's like if you were born here, my God, did you win the lottery. Right? And you look at these comforts and amazing privileges.

• 46:29Speaker 02

  And it's easy to believe that whatever your kind of latest level of comfort is, that that is necessary for happiness, that is necessary for safety, that is necessary for fill in the blank. And by and large, it's just not. So I really try to, you know, get out in the woods, get filthy, do something hard, experience some physical pain, not excessively so, but just like through training and so on. You're like, okay, yeah, a little bit of pan, a little bit of fasting. If I lost, you know, half, half what I have, 75, 80, 90% of what I have, I'm fine. So doesn't mean you just go to Vegas and put it all

• 47:13Speaker 02

  in black. It doesn't mean that. It means that a lot of these things you're considering, if they go totally wrong, and it's actually surprisingly hard to fail completely if you're pretty smart and have some ability to improvise, completely survivable, right? And for a lot of what I do, you just, you, you don't make it unless you have that, unless you cultivate that view on things. And you can't be stupid and reckless, but it's like in startup investing, it's like 70, 80% of those are going to go to zero,

• 47:50Speaker 02

  even if you put seven to 10 years in, right? And so I like startup investing as a metaphor for life, because you don't need to get a lot of things right to have an amazing life, an incredible life. You don't need to get a lot of things right. You just need to get a few high leverage things right. Those 10 relationships, health.

• 48:20Speaker 02

  All right. Like, if you get those two things right, guess what? Like, I know a lot of billionaires, decade billionaires. You're gonna have more than 90% of those guys. In terms of durable wealth, what I would consider wealth. Oh, yeah, if you just get those two things right. It's like, sure, money is important to a point, right? I don't want to minimize that. But don't underestimate what you can do by getting a few things right. You can be wrong a lot of the time. I mean, I've been wrong tons, tons, tons, tons.

• 48:52Shawn Ryan?

  Good point.

• 48:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:55Shawn Ryan?

  I love that. I love that.

• 48:58Shawn Ryan?

  Fear setting.

• 48:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I still, I mean, I, I, I am. You know, I'm not just the president, I'm a client, you know, Hair Club for Men.

• 49:08Shawn Ryan?

  You got a great haircut, I must say.

• 49:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, I use it. Yeah, we go to the same stylist.

• 49:14Speaker 02

  I, I still use this. And because I promised it, I want to close one loop. Morning pages, Julia Cameron. This is even simpler. People can try this. Maybe this is the appetizer before fear setting. Every morning, that monkey mind with all the worries and things ricocheting around that might be producing anxiety or whatever it might be. Just vomit that onto a page, longhand, write for two to three pages. That's it. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to remember it. You don't have to go back to it. You don't have to solve anything. Just trap that monkey mind on paper so you can get on with your day. Do that for two, three pages a day. The arguably the most, one of the most productive writers, creators in Hollywood,

• 49:58Speaker 02

  even though he lives in New York, but Brian Koppelman co-created Billions, was, was, was behind Rounders along with his writing partner. I mean, the guy's super prolific. And he does transcendental meditation and morning pages every day.

• 50:15Speaker 02

  We can talk about meditation separately. But I recommend it. I won't mention it. But like, the right hand of a pretty well-known politician, who basically is like the COO of everything that politician does, which is...

• 50:28Speaker 02

  Incredible, right? In terms of just like track record endurance output. And he did morning pages based on my recommendation, which I got from Brian, for six months. And he wrote me back and he said, this is the closest thing to a magical effect that I've ever found.

• 50:46Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:47Shawn Ryan?

  No shit.

• 50:48Speaker 02

  So simple, so simple. And what does that have in common with fear setting? It's taking these kind of nebulous problems inside your head and putting it on paper. That's it. It's very simple. But consistently, right? It's not going to the gym once and then you're like, I guess I'm fit now. It's like, no, this is, this is, it's kind of like flossing your teeth. You don't necessarily have to do it every day, although if you do morning pages for a week or two, it's shocking what effect it can have on your well-being and productivity. And then you could, you could view that as the flossing.

• 51:27Shawn Ryan?

  Why do you think that works? I mean, I'm gonna try this. I'm, I'm gonna try.

• 51:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, you should.

• 51:31Shawn Ryan?

  Why does it work? What would be the difference?

• 51:35Speaker 02

  I think it works. I think the way it works, this is, this is my perspective on it, is that, and this is part of the reason why writing is so helpful also, in general, is that it's incredibly difficult to cross-examine your own thoughts while you're thinking them. They're too fleeting, moves too quickly. It's very hard to look at them dispassionately, almost as an observer, right? It's like, if you hang out with your friends and they've got problems, you're like, man, you can sort out their problems like that, right? And just like, why don't you just do this, this and this? You can see it so easily. But it's very hard for us to like, look at ourselves in the same way, especially with, with the speed of thought.

• 52:19Speaker 02

  So the simple act of freezing it on paper allows you to look at it for what it is. And nine times out of 10, you look at it, you're like, okay, that's kind of ridiculous. Or it's not ridiculous, but once you've put it on paper, I feel like subconsciously, there's part of you that's like, I, I have that written down. I don't need to remember or think about it.

• 52:41Speaker 02

  And whatever that tendency is, and some people more than others, certainly I have a lot of it, to kind of white knuckle grasp onto a thought so that it becomes this merry-go-round.

• 52:53Speaker 02

  Writing it down just allows you to relax your grip and let it go. And if you can do that for a few hours, I mean, in today's world, if you can single task and focus on one thing for a few hours without notifications, without getting distracted, without looping on some future anxiety or past depression, whatever it might be, if you can do that for a few hours, my God, like in the next few years especially, post-AI, like you're gonna have such an enormous competitive advantage.

• 53:23Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting.

• 53:24Speaker 02

  Huge, huge, like attentional advantage.

• 53:29Shawn Ryan?

  It's already a fascinating conversation. Love it.

• 53:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:33Shawn Ryan?

  Love it.

• 53:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:36Shawn Ryan?

  Let's get into your story a little bit.

• 53:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure.

• 53:38Shawn Ryan?

  Where did you grow up?

• 53:39Speaker 02

  I grew up on Long Island, so Eastern Long Island, rat tail and all.

• 53:44Shawn Ryan?

  A rat tail, nice.

• 53:46Speaker 02

  I had a rat tail, I had some terrible haircuts growing up. Didn't realize it at the time, but grew up on Eastern Long Island, way out by Montauk. So people associate that with like, rightly so, you know, hedge fund managers and out by the Hamptons, tennis with Steven Spielberg kind of thing, right? These hundred million dollar mansions. And that's part of it, but a lot like any, any tourist town that has a lot of second or third or fourth or fifth homes, like Nantucket or wherever, they're all over the place. You've got the people who come there on the weekends or for the summers, and then you got the locals, right? So the local side is mostly people working in service industries, et cetera.

• 54:32Speaker 02

  You know, most of my friends' fathers were like fishermen, carpenters, landscapers, that kind of thing. So I grew up working in restaurants. Started, started bus buying pretty early. I didn't even sure it was legal, probably fourteen, fourteen or so. I think everybody should work a service job. I think everybody should have to work a service job. But that's where I grew up, Eastern Long Island. And school was not great. I mean, you don't really realize, you have no reference point, right? Like, whatever's in front of you is kind of your reality. School was not, was, was not good. So eventually, one of my, I got really lucky, man. You just think about all these things that have to line up for either of us to be where we are.

• 55:14Speaker 02

  And these, these, these sliding door moments. One friend, if I had been two years younger, two years older, this wouldn't have happened. But one guy managed to escape Long Island and his parents sent him to school in New Hampshire, which was a private school. And he came back and he was like, you have to leave this place. And I was like, what are you talking about? And then a math teacher was like, he's right. You need to fucking get out of here. I was like, what? And started looking into it. Ultimately, got some scholarships. My parents were very supportive. It was all my idea. Like, the whole extended family chipped in and I was able to transfer to a private school in New Hampshire.

• 55:55Speaker 02

  And that was a huge life changer and inflection point. I mean, that's where, suddenly, instead of just being able to study Spanish, you could study anything. And that's how I ended up studying Japanese. And class, six days a week, right? Seated meal with coat and tie. I mean, Wow. You had mandatory sports. And then in some cases, you had six period, which was classes after sports. You'd finish school like, whatever, six PM, go back to your room, like splash water on your face, get on a suit and tie, and then go to seated meal chapel in the morning. Right? I mean, the, the workload, the intensity was unbelievable. I was.

• 56:34Speaker 02

  Accustomed to doing really well in school without having to try very hard. And suddenly I was like barely keeping my head above water. Really? It was great for me. It was great for me.

• 56:45Speaker 02

  It was really hard, but having a few male role models in particular who were like, "You can do it. Yeah, it's hard." Like, you know, you can do it. And just like having to push through that initial sunburn of like too much sun exposure in terms of stress.

• 57:04Speaker 02

  What were you into as a kid? I mean, at that point, I mean, I was, I was very interested. Even at that point, I was very interested in neuroscience. I wanted to be a neuroscientist.

• 57:15Speaker 02

  Cause I'd seen my, my grandmother disintegrate with Alzheimer's. And I was also very interested just in learning in general and how you could accelerate learning from a very young age because it just seemed like there was a wide open field of possibility there that folks weren't exploring and we can, we can dive into that. I was also wrestler. That was the only sport I was ever any good at. Oh, really? Yeah, I was born premature. I was tiny, super hyperactive. And one of my mom's friends was like, "You gotta put that boy in kid wrestling to tire him out." And because I was so puny, I just got the crap kicked out of me all the time until about sixth grade.

• 58:00Speaker 02

  And like team sports were out. I would just get massacred. I mean, I wouldn't even go out to recess until probably like fourth or fifth grade. Cause it's just, it was just like being out in the prison yard. Wow. The crap kicked out of me. So I would just stay inside safely near the teacher and read books, mostly marine biology.

• 58:24Speaker 02

  Because my parents, actually this is something my parents did. I want to give them credit. We didn't have a lot of money, but my mom said, "If you want books, we always have budget for books." And so we would go to the bookstore and there were remainder tables, you know, these books that the bookstore is trying to get rid of. I like, that was the permissible real estate. It's like, all right, you get to choose from these books. Nice. Forty, sixty, eighty percent off. And got a big hardcover book called Fishes of the World.

• 58:57Speaker 02

  And out on eastern Long Island, maybe people don't know this, but lots of sharks and great whites and the crazy shark fisherman from Jaws was actually based on a guy named Frank Mundus, who is a No kidding. Rodden real shark hunter off of Montauk. And so my mom took me to meet him. I was fascinated by sharks. And that is just a roundabout way of saying, for a long time, I, it was not safe for me to go into kind of like group sports. So my mom threw me into kid wrestling, weight class, right? It's like puny kid versus puny kid. Perfect. And that stuck all the

• 59:36Speaker 02

  way up until the beginning of college. And so wrestling, wrestling was the, the center of my athletic life. Gotcha. Yeah. If you want to get good at suffer fest, wrestling is a good way to do it. I was a wrestler too. Yeah. Very familiar. Also puny. So, yeah. Yeah. So, so I would say those are a few things that I was into. I was very interested in drawing. I think just genetically, there's, there's, my grandfather was a sculptor, seems to be something just in the bloodline for that. So I was always drawing. So I was, I,

• 1:00:15Speaker 02

  I was, I kind of had, I guess, three in tandem, right? The neuroscience and cognitive performance and stuff, that was, that was an interest. And I thought, oh, man, it could be really interesting to be a scientist. And then there was the marine biology also, right? The intersection of science. But then there was comic book penciller. I wanted to be a comic. Comic book penciller. Yeah. I still have all my comic books from when I was a kid. So I wanted to be a comic book penciller. But this was pre Marvel Studios, like before, I mean, you were basically signing up for poverty if you were a comic book penciller back in the day. Nonetheless, still, a lot of icons and idols to this day, I have so much respect for. Jim Lee was one

• 1:00:56Speaker 02

  of my favorites. So I still, I still draw. Like, I still, I still get into it. But for a long time, I wanted to take that path. Right on. Yeah. So that's, those are some of the early stages. I mean, I have the

• 1:01:15Shawn Ryan?

  I think it was in childhood bipolar disorder, OCD, depression. How did you overcome those things? How did, how did they, how did they pop up on your radar?

• 1:01:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, it's, it was sort of the water that I swam in, right? In the sense that I didn't know life was any different for most people. So a lot of bipolar major depressive disorder, a lot of addiction in my family. So you've got alcohol, indigestion, cardiomyopathy. On one uncle, so he drank himself to death, got early onset dementia. My aunt died of alcohol plus Percocet. Pretty messy. So a lot of addiction and which I think is really, and Gabor Maté, I think is the right framing on this. It's before we ask why the addiction, we should ask why the pain. Right?

• 1:02:10Speaker 02

  And so I think a lot of that is undiagnosed psychiatric disorders. Right? And so that was always part of my experience, right? This anxiety, this kind of OCD like dysregulation and rumination, worrying, hypervigilance. I was also very badly abused as a kid, not by my parents, but that's, we can get into that if you want. But that turned everything up.

• 1:02:39Shawn Ryan?

  How were you abused?

• 1:02:40Speaker 02

  I was sexually abused by a babysitter's son, like weekly for a couple of years.

• 1:02:45Shawn Ryan?

  By a babysitter's son?

• 1:02:46Speaker 02

  Uh huh. Yeah.

• 1:02:49Shawn Ryan?

  How old?

• 1:02:50Speaker 02

  Two to four. Two to four.

• 1:02:52Shawn Ryan?

  Two to four years old?

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:55Shawn Ryan?

  So. Do you remember it?

• 1:02:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, sadly. Yeah, be better, maybe better if I didn't, but. So you take, you take like out of the box hardware that's already predisposed. And then you add some type of traumatic event like that. It's not a great combo. And I would say that I was.

• 1:03:25Speaker 02

  Driven, I wanted to get out of Long Island, et cetera, et cetera. Money issues were always kind of a problem in the household. Like, that was always a conversation. So I was like, alright, I need to make money. So there was like, get out of Long Island, be good at school. That's your ticket. And that was kind of the narrative in the household, which I think was actually a helpful narrative. It's like, you got it. If you're good at school, you can write your tickets. Alright. So I took all the rage. I was a very angry kid, very angry human. I would say up until probably 2013, 15. Wow, after the book, after your first book. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

• 1:04:05Speaker 02

  I didn't start to deal with any of the trauma until probably 2015, in any meaningful way. But the anger and the rage, even though it's not a clean fuel, I don't think it's a clean fuel. Like, you do a lot of damage to the vessel. But it's a fuel, right? Like, it's a propellant that I used. So I was just fucking intense, super intense. And took that experience and everything, compartmentalized it. And I was just like, okay, like, no rearview mirror forward, that's it. And I think for, that can work for a while. You know, it can work for decades in some cases.

• 1:04:49Speaker 02

  Ultimately, I think if you want a semblance of peace and well-being, you kind of have to pay the piper and deal with it. And I have been surprised, I mean, how many of the friends I have who are veterans, who operated at a very high level, came out, ended up, for any host of reasons, doing, say, Ibragen or other psychedelic therapy, who in the process of doing that, realized that it wasn't principally, say, PTSD,

• 1:05:31Speaker 02

  often some component of TBI, but there was some type of trauma they didn't deal with. Super common, super common. I would say 80% of the guys I know. And so it's really, like, the numbers are staggering. And the people who kind of survive, as opposed to like, self-destructing.

• 1:05:53Speaker 02

  At least in the beginning, I think, get really good at compartmentalizing. Right? But compartmentalizing, while it can help you with performance for relationships, for friends, for family, it doesn't work very well. You end up being emotionally cauterized. And you know, the armor that you develop to keep things out, keeps a lot of things in, and it keeps a lot of people out. So to answer your question, though, things that ended up really having a positive impact would include psychedelic assisted therapies. So we can talk about that because they're not a panacea, they're not for everyone, and there are real

• 1:06:33Speaker 02

  risks depending on the compound that is in question.

• 1:06:43Speaker 02

  Brain stimulation, like accelerated TMS. I literally just did another round of accelerated TMS two days ago. So we could talk about that, very fresh. But different types of non-invasive brain stimulation, incredibly interesting. So microchips over medicine, in a sense. I think bioelectric medicine is one field where I'm paying a lot of attention. Bioelectric medicine? Yeah, yeah. So where can you use stimulation? It doesn't automatically have to be stimulation. It could be something more like ultrasound. But how can you use non-invasive technologies, or even an implant, to say, change how your

• 1:07:27Speaker 02

  brain is firing, or to inhibit or excite a certain part of the brain, or to stimulate the, say, vagus nerve, in some cases, related to autoimmune dysfunction, or rheumatoid arthritis, for instance, there was a piece on the cover of the New York Times not too long ago about this. How can you use electricity, in effect, to treat issues with fewer side effects than pills? Or injectables or IV or whatever it might be. So the accelerated TMS specifically, I think is very interesting. There's a protocol called the Saint Protocol. It's been modified in a couple of different ways, but the primary or one of the best known

• 1:08:11Speaker 02

  researchers behind that unfortunately committed suicide. A few months ago, a friend of mine, Nolan Williams, developed a lot of these approaches along with his team. But you see, in some cases, after a week, 70, 80% remission of treatment-resistant depression. Wow. With just as much, if not more durability than psychedelic experiences. Wow. I have a lot of, a lot of time on the research side, also on the experiential side with psychedelic assisted therapies. And I've taken copious notes for well over a decade on everything. And know a lot of the people who are at the top of that field. And I would say that bioelectric medicine is just as interesting.

• 1:08:56Speaker 02

  That has had a huge impact on my life. Very early days, very early. But that is certainly of interest. And then I would say the therapies and tools like morning pages, it's so simple, morning pages and fear setting, these are not small things, guys, at least not for me. Like if your life is ruled by fear, because what I realized is, for me personally, I miss, in a sense, I was mistreating myself by focusing on the depression. And what I only realized in the last five years is that the depression was downstream of other things.

• 1:09:40Speaker 02

  I had anxiety, which was maybe out of the box. Like I have family members who make my OCD look like amateur hour. Like they're so over the top. When you combine that with hypervigilance, like your life is ruled by fear and worry.

• 1:09:58Speaker 02

  And when you have that as one of your defaults, something like fear setting, something like morning pages is not a small thing. Like it is actually a very big deal. And when you start to look at psychedelic assisted therapies, or frankly, honestly, off the rack, regular antidepressants like SSRIs or selective, like SNRIs, I mean, there are many different types. For some people, those are a godsend, right? But when you start to combine some of these things with medical supervision, with therapies, right? Whether that's CBT, there's one called DBT, which I think is very interesting.

• 1:10:43Speaker 02

  Peter Tia, MD, is a big proponent of DBT. It's the combination of things plus investing in relationships, right? I think Tony Robbins said once, I heard at one of his events, I've only been to two of his events, there are a bit too much stimulation for someone who's pretty introverted. It's a lot of stimulation. But he was on stage and he said, yeah, I, I, I, me, me, me gets to be a really fucking boring song after a while. And I was like, that's the way to put it. And I think the best way to help the self is to escape the self sometimes.

• 1:11:24Speaker 02

  Not by doing coke, not by getting plastered every night, but by doing what we're evolved to do, which is spend time with other people, right? Doing things, not just like sitting there in a circle like AA, talking about all your worries and pains, even though AA is actually a spectacular organization and format. It's incredibly impressive, but you don't necessarily have to do that. You can just be a bunch of dudes sitting around a fire, not making eye contact, making fart jokes and talking about hunting. Like, that's fine. That's actually incredibly therapeutic. It's like, people process things in different ways. It doesn't have to be, like, not everyone has to do it the same way.

• 1:12:07Shawn Ryan?

  Want to stay up to date on all things SRS? You bet your ass you do. Our newsletter brings you the latest SRS news and critical updates. Get instant alerts on the newest episodes. Never miss a beat. Exclusive intel briefs from counterterrorism expert Sarah Adams. You've seen her many times on the show. She's going to give unfiltered insights on global terrorist activity. For Patreon exclusives, you're going to get epic range days with me and damn near every guest that's come in the studio. You're also going to get behind the scenes content and guest updates. You're going to get first dibs on new merch drops and limited edition items that will never be sold again.

• 1:12:49Shawn Ryan?

  Plus, exclusive offers from our partners you won't find anywhere else. So subscribe to the Vigilance Elite newsletter right now.

• 1:13:04Speaker 02

  So, those are a few thoughts, but yeah, I mean, it came very, like, almost killed myself in college. Had a date on the calendar, had a plan, knew exactly how I was going to do it to make it look like an accident. I mean, it was-

• 1:13:15Shawn Ryan?

  How were you gonna do it?

• 1:13:16Speaker 02

  I, I won't, I won't mention it because it's too good and other people will copy it. It's, it's, I, I've never, I've never wanted to discuss it because there are people who are probably watching this who are in pain. And until I give them maybe a glimpse of how I got out, I wouldn't want to give them any blueprint. It's just too risky. I wouldn't want to feel the responsibility for that. But, uh, I got really, really lucky. Once again, one of the sliding door moments. If it had been two or three years later, I wouldn't be here. The reason is, I went to Firestone Library at Princeton where I went undergrad. Funny story, but my guidance counselor in high school was like, "You should definitely

• 1:14:01Speaker 02

  not apply to Princeton or any hard schools for that matter." Talk about that if you want, but misline incentives. Anyway, got in and, uh, was reserving a book on assisted suicide from Firestone Library. But someone else had already taken it out. Some other student was reading it. And I put in a request. So you put in a request with the library. What do they do? At that point in time, they would mail you a postcard.

• 1:14:29Speaker 02

  But I was taking a year away from school at that point, it's like a break from undergrad, which is what the, what the school and what a lot of schools will encourage you to do if they think you're having, if you claim any mental duress, because they don't want a suicide on their watch, on their campus, right? It might not help you, but they don't want that as a blemish on their record, so to speak. So, the actual postcard got mailed to my parents at home. I'd forgotten to change my mailing address at the registrar's office. So, postcard goes to my parents' house and it's like, "Congratulations, your book is now in on assisted suicide," whatever. Mom called me freaking out and I tap danced and I lied.

• 1:15:13Speaker 02

  And I was like, "Oh, it's a friend at Rutgers who couldn't get the book and I was just trying to help him out, da-da-da." But it snapped me, it broke the spell. It snapped me out of it. Because when you're in that much pain, you think nothing can fix it. You think you're fundamentally broken, that you're uniquely flawed. You become so I, I, I, me, me, me, that all you want is the pain to stop. Anything can, must be better than this, so let me just close the curtain and turn this show off. And when my mom called, I realized, oh, if I do this, number one, now I can't make it look like an accident. Number two, even if I tried to make it look like an accident, doing what I had planned to do would have been like putting on a suicide bomber vest, walking into a room of all the

• 1:15:58Speaker 02

  people I care most about and detonating. Like psychologically, emotionally, that would have been the impact. And so, I didn't do it. And quadrupled down on physical training, which is how I ended up doing the, going to the nationals for Chinese kickboxing in the US. I was like, "You know what? The only thing I know how to do that gets me out of my head is train under imminent threat of being kicked or punched in the face." Like, I am not allowed to daydream under those circumstances. So, I'm just gonna train hours a day. And that's what I ended up doing. And ultimately, everything was fine. Like, there was, there were, there were some reasons for me getting as deep into that hole as I did. Not all my fault.

• 1:16:42Speaker 02

  And much later, this is probably only 10 years ago, I wrote a post called Some Practical Thoughts on Suicide. And like, if anyone's feeling really dark, like, go read that post. Like, it has saved hundreds of lives, and it doesn't sugarcoat anything. The reason I wrote that, so I was at an event in San Francisco at the time, being interviewed on stage. I got off, and a couple of people came over, and there was a small circle around me, they wanted a book signed, and things like that. And this really nice guy, you know, dressed up in a suit and everything for the event, gave me this book, and he's like, "Oh, yeah, I just wanted you to sign this for my brother." And I was like, "Sure, no problem. What would you like me to say to your brother?" And he just kind of froze.

• 1:17:24Speaker 02

  And it was like a weird, uh, interaction. I couldn't quite figure it out, but I was like, "You know what? I tell you what, let's chat afterwards. You can think about it for a bit. I'll sign it afterwards." And then I went on and interacted with everybody else. And then, as I was walking back to the elevator to leave, he joined me, and he was like, "Yeah, I'm really sorry I froze, but my brother killed himself. And my mom has kept his room exactly as it was, and he was such a huge fan of yours, and I just wasn't sure what to put in the book." And ended up signing the book. I gave it to him, and he's like, "Have you ever thought about talking about anything related to mental health?" He's like, "Because my brother listened to you." And I was like, "Fuck." Okay.

• 1:18:07Speaker 02

  And it took me months. I was not committed to publishing it, but I spent months working on this piece, Some Practical Thoughts on Suicide. And then, uh, like, my parents didn't really know, right? Because I'd lied. Mm-hmm. Family didn't know, best friends didn't know. Damn, man. And I certainly, like, the two things that I would say I'm proudest of, in terms of publishing, probably, if I had to pick two...

• 1:18:45Speaker 02

  If I had to pick two, it'd be the blog post on suicide, right? Some practical thoughts on suicide and then the podcast during COVID on the childhood abuse, which also like parents didn't know about, nobody knew about. Your parents didn't know about that? Nobody, nobody knew. So I didn't want them to blame themselves. I had intended to like write a book after they passed away so they wouldn't blame themselves. And then during COVID, right, this is early COVID, people don't know it's coming, like it's scary, right? Like, and

• 1:19:23Speaker 02

  and I was, I was, I remember I had flown to Costa Rica to have some optionality in terms of travel. I was like, all right, let me figure out what's going on here. Like a friend of mine who works with a lot of hedge fund managers, they're giving me a very early heads up on COVID. And I was like, oh, this is bad. This could be really bad. Let's try to preserve as much optionality as possible. We're leaving now. So I ended up in Costa Rica and we're sitting there having a meal and somehow this came up because she knew about it. There were two girlfriends, like long-term, long, long-term girlfriends. So as I was mentioning earlier, when you're like cauterized and compartmentalized, like there are a lot of relationship costs. So there's, it works up to a point and then

• 1:20:04Speaker 02

  you hit a wall and suddenly it doesn't work. And so with these girlfriends who are, you know, three, four, five, six years, right? There was a point where I shared with these two women specifically, I guess it was three long-term girlfriends about the abuse. And this, this, this one girlfriend, I was talking about writing the book and she was like, you know, we're sitting in the middle of COVID. She's like, have you ever thought about how many people are going to die of natural or unnatural causes before you ever write that book? Like, it's gonna be 10 years, 15 years? She was like, why don't you do a podcast? And I was like,

• 1:20:45Speaker 02

  Because I don't want to talk to my parents. I don't want to talk to my friends. Like, it's too vulnerable. It's too vulnerable. Ultimately,

• 1:20:54Speaker 02

  I had had a friend, Debbie Millman, amazing human being, incredible graphic artist, teacher.

• 1:21:01Speaker 02

  Design Matters is her podcast, been running even longer than mine. And when she came on my show, I had noticed in all my research, she never really talked about her family. And so I asked her before we started recording, I was like, would you be open to talking about your family at all? Noticed a huge glaring omission. And she was like, maybe. She's like, you can try it. And then if I'm open to it, we'll talk about it. But if not, then not. And we were friends. And we got into it. And she opened up the first time really publicly about horrifying sexual abuse, like throughout her entire childhood. And

• 1:21:39Shawn Ryan?

  It's crazy how many kids go through this.

• 1:21:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's awful. And I mean, the numbers are staggering. Like, it's really high.

• 1:21:46Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, I know. Fifty percent of the people that have been on here have talked about it. And then there's another percentage that won't, that will, that will talk about it, but not on camera.

• 1:21:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it's pervasive. And so I asked Debbie if she would be open to having a conversation with me about how we've both tried to overcome or address this. Because she and I took very, very, very different paths and used very different tools. And so we recorded the conversation and I told her in advance, I was like, look, Debbie, I don't know if I'm gonna ever publish this. She was like, that's totally fine. And we recorded it. Eventually I was like, all right, here goes nothing. And published that, stayed off of all social media. I told my team, I was like, I don't want to see any feedback unless it's from people I care about and it's positive feedback.

• 1:22:40Speaker 02

  I was like, I'm too, it's too raw. Like, I don't want to, internet's a nasty place, right? It's a, it's a full contact spore where every fucking village idiot has been given like a halberd and a mace, right? It's, it's not pretty. So I was like, I'm staying off of everything.

• 1:22:55Shawn Ryan?

  But the opposite happened, didn't it?

• 1:22:57Speaker 02

  Well, I ignored everything, except the only people who could reach me were my close friends. So what happened? I would say,

• 1:23:07Speaker 02

  Somewhere between 25 and 35% of some of my oldest, closest friends reached out and left me the most heart-wrenching voice memos and voicemails you can imagine about their own abuse that they'd never told anyone about. Fucking horrible.

• 1:23:29Speaker 02

  I had anticipated bad behavior on the internet, so I stayed away. I did not expect such a high percentage of my really close friends to confide in me. That was, that was, that was really hard.

• 1:23:45Speaker 02

  But I have a lot of, for whatever reason, capacity for like that. With friends, with people I care about, I have a lot of capacity for handling that. So, uh, fuck, man. How did it feel? It felt, it felt, and I had to decide in advance what would, what the, what feeling would make it worth it. Right? Because no outcome's guaranteed. You have no idea what's gonna happen when this thing gets released into the wild. So it was like, it was an unburdening for myself. Right? Wasn't expecting apologies from anybody. I wasn't expecting a make-good. I wasn't expecting

• 1:24:27Speaker 02

  any Harry Potter magic spell to do Ctrl-Z undo on these experiences. I just, I was exhausted by carrying the weight of that secret around. And

• 1:24:43Speaker 02

  furthermore, I'd had this very skilled therapist tell me at one point.

• 1:24:49Speaker 02

  And maybe she just didn't realize that this would stick. I guess we very seldom realize these little things we might say that actually can make a big difference to people. She said, "Take, take the, take the pain and make it part of your medicine."

• 1:25:02Speaker 02

  And

• 1:25:04Speaker 02

  by taking my own experience and turning it into something, hopefully that would help people, it gave it some redemption. It gave it some meaning. Am I glad it happened? No, right? When people say it's like, "Well, it made me who I am." Fuck that. Like, if I could remove that, I would remove it for sure. The amount of damage that's done is unbelievable.

• 1:25:26Speaker 02

  And it certainly contributed to the near suicide in retrospect, right? And I thought I had 17 different problems, but when you look back hindsight 2020, it's like, oh yeah, all that stuff makes sense. There's one like, it was like hardware, like genetics plus trauma. Like is that? Did you learn that through psychedelics? That's part, I would say it's one of the tools that made it very clear where I was able to see how these seemingly disconnected pieces of puzzle fit together perfectly. And psychedelics are fascinating for a lot of reasons.

• 1:26:07Speaker 02

  I've stepped outside of the public discussion of psychedelics largely in the last few years because I've just been disgusted by all the infighting and humans being humans. Like, humans just cannot resist soiling the nest, peeing in the pool, choose your metaphor. It's like all of the infighting and nonsense and politics and power grabbing that you see in any group of humans, you also see within the psychedelic ecosystem, right? So anyone, anyone who thinks you just need to put LSD in the water supply and we're gonna have world peace, like I'm like, you should go to a psychedelic, go to a psychedelic, go to a psychedelic conference and see all the assholery and fuckery afoot.

• 1:26:48Speaker 02

  And trust me, I can assure you that that will not work. And at the same time, I mean, some of the most beautiful, wonderful, inexplicable, and also painful experiences I've ever had have involved psychedelics. And you do need to be very, very careful with them. I really feel like as one of my good friends who passed away due to cancer, but Roland Griffiths of Johns Hopkins, he said, in effect, like you're using psychological nuclear power.

• 1:27:22Speaker 02

  It's like, it doesn't just bend one way, right? Like, it's inducing a level of plasticity and suggestibility and malleability. But how you shape that playdough, once it's heated up, matters a lot. So you can't just dose and run. It's like, the experience does matter. Experience itself does matter, but the way I encourage people to think about it is, number one, like, treat it as if you're going to have brain surgery. You're not gonna find a shaman on Facebook for your brain surgery. So if your friend's like, "Bro, yeah, I got an awesome shaman who's coming in and like, come sit this weekend." And it's like, three days till the weekend?

• 1:28:06Speaker 02

  Like, you would never do that if you were having your skull opened up. Don't do it, in my opinion, without a lot of prep and consideration.

• 1:28:14Shawn Ryan?

  So you have a very healthy respect.

• 1:28:17Speaker 02

  I have a very healthy respect because, uh, and this isn't scaremongering, it's just a fact of the matter, there's a lot of survivorship bias in the sense that in, in, you tend to, especially up until a few years ago, you hear about all the amazing transformations. The people who get their psyche shattered and who have some type of persistent perceptual disorder, they're not necessarily showcasing that, they're not sharing it. They might be ashamed, they might get criticized by friends who are proselytizers for psychedelics who take their difficult experience as a risk to the quote-unquote "movement," right?

• 1:29:02Speaker 02

  There's, there are a lot of forces at work and dynamics at play. They make it challenging for people who have hard experiences to get the help they need. But as someone who, I had a podcast in 2015 about Ibogaine. And Ibogaine in Mexico specifically, and...

• 1:29:22Speaker 02

  I've been around these things, certainly not as long as many. Like, there are facilitators who have tens of thousands of sessions under their belts over forty, fifty years. I mean, these people know infinitely more than I do. And certainly indigenous practitioners are coming through practices handed down from generation to generation for hundreds of thousands of years. We have a beginning to scratch the surface there. But I've had enough time, I would say, as someone who's taken it very seriously and effectively had researching and experiencing and experimenting around psychedelics as my unpaid, full-time job for ten years, to say that, once I had a platform,

• 1:30:07Speaker 02

  the number of emails that come over the transom from people who have been destabilized is not trivial, right? No shit. No, it's not trivial. And you can, you can, you can mitigate some of the risks. There are better, or I should say safer and less safe ways of approaching different psychedelics. And it depends on the compound, right? Like, psychedelic is not a psychedelic is not a psychedelic. Mm-hmm. Like, these are as different as completely separate classes of drugs, in some cases, in my opinions. And even at different doses, they behave very differently. So, it's like, ten micrograms of LSD is very different than 200 micrograms of LSD,

• 1:30:52Speaker 02

  as an example. But I would just say that, take it seriously, right? And if you're going to consider these tools, the way I put it with folks, because a lot of friends come to me to discuss this, is I say, "You should look at this as like you're having..." The neurosurgery example is a good one, but let's use perhaps a better comparison in some respects, which is you're about to have both knees or both hips replaced. Okay? So, you're gonna do a lot of homework on who's gonna do that surgery, and you're gonna understand all the risks involved. You're gonna understand the durability, right? You might need to get those hips replaced later again. And what are you gonna do? You're gonna do a lot of rehab.

• 1:31:39Speaker 02

  It's like, the surgery is the catalyst, but it's like, if you have both knees replaced and you don't do any rehab, that could have a worse outcome than not having surgery in the first place. So what you do afterwards really matters. And there's a lot of, I think, compelling research and a number of theories around this that I think,

• 1:32:01Speaker 02

  I think are very credible from, say, Ghul Dolan, who is a researcher, who I believe now is at UC Berkeley, used to be at Hopkins, who looked at MDMA extensively among octopuses also. Among octopuses? And how octopuses would, which are very asocial or antisocial most of the time, but how, even with a completely different nervous system, how they would just display pro-social behavior, just like humans on MDMA. Oh, sir. Really fascinating stuff. But what she is also looking at now is how you might use psychedelics to, and I might be getting some of the details wrong, but I'm not that far off, to, say, help stroke patients to redevelop motor control.

• 1:32:45Speaker 02

  Is there an application there? And the reason that she's looking at potential applications like that is that she believes certain psychedelics open a, reopen a critical period or a critical window, much like if kids don't learn to, say, speak a language within a certain age range, right? It's much later to do later. There's a, there's a critical developmental window for certain things. Can you reopen those windows using psychedelics? And it seems like the answer is yes. In which case, all of the advice that the old timers have been given about integrations for people who might be familiar with ayahuasca in a traditional context, the diets afterwards, abstaining from certain things for a few weeks,

• 1:33:31Speaker 02

  what does that sound a lot like? It sounds a lot like what science is only beginning to scratch the surface of, which is the reopening of these, these critical periods or critical windows, within which you can start to rewrite behaviors, like before the concrete sets. So I'm very, I would say,

• 1:33:55Speaker 02

  Mind blown and impressed with what these compounds can do as part of a larger context of some type of therapy. And there are a lot of different approaches to this. And the westernized version of like neo shamanic practices is very different from what they actually do. And whether it be the Amazon or Africa or fill in the blank, right? Like the practice is very different or the maschex in Mexico, et cetera. So I would say I'm very impressed and I'm also very conservative. And the vast majority of people who come to me and they're like, yeah, yeah, I really want to do psychedelics. I talk them out of it, not into it. Really?

• 1:34:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, the vast majority, I talk out of it.

• 1:34:43Speaker 02

  Which is not to say I think the risks outweigh the benefits, but there are certain people. If you have family history of schizophrenia or borderline personality disorder, I do not recommend using these things. Which is another reason why I'm so excited about the different types of brain stimulation or vagus nerve stimulation because, or this is another one actually that I'll throw out there. Metabolic psychiatry using diet, the ketogenic diet specifically. There's an associate professor, I think he's still an associate professor at Harvard named Chris Palmer, who has looked at this very extensively for certain, let's call it, people aren't going to like this, some folks, but chaotic psychiatric disorders. So let's just say there's a river and you can swim in the middle.

• 1:35:28Speaker 02

  That's like complete normalcy. That's pretty much no one. And then on one side you have hyper rigidity, let's just say, which is like OCD, depression, chronic anxiety, anorexia nervosa, which are all characterized in a sense by a certain looping and rigidity. Which is part of the reason why I think psychedelics are mysteriously effective for this constellation of seemingly different diagnoses, right? They're on this rigidity side. I think classical psychedelics can be very, very helpful for that side of things. Then on the other side of the river, you've got, let's just call it a more chaotic constellation of disorders, which would include schizophrenia, borderline personality disorder.

• 1:36:14Speaker 02

  On that side of the river, it would seem that something like metabolic psychiatry is very, very interesting. You see people who have been on dozens of medications and they're on the keto jantia for four weeks and then they get off of all of their medications. Are you serious? Yeah. It is shocking. Shocking. So like the three, let's just call it current, it could get replaced, but pillars of the mental health like technology stool for me that are most interesting, ketones and metabolic psychiatry, brain stimulation or bioelectric medicine, more broadly bioelectric medicine, and then psychedelic assisted therapies. But I'm tool agnostic. Psychedelics at the time were most interesting, most compelling

• 1:36:59Speaker 02

  because of some of the effects that you were seeing and the durability, right, with PTSD, with major depressive disorder, with alcoholism through like NYU addiction, which by the way is not new. We were doing this research with LSD in like the 50s. Were we really? Yeah, 50s and 60s. And then once Nixon signed it off into prohibition era, that all went away. And there were a lot of political motivations behind that. It was not, there was not a scientific reason for that. It was more politically motivated. But the point being that I'm very excited about what the future holds for psychedelic therapies. But

• 1:37:43Speaker 02

  I've been most interested in the science. Once it turns into like policy and politicking and grandstanding and befriending the right special interest groups. Yeah. It's not, I have zero patience for that stuff. I just can't, I have a lot of trouble with it. So I prefer to just deal with the scientists and the practitioners. Like I've been very heavily involved with groups like the Amazon Conservation Team and looking at indigenous land rights and really trying to the extent possible to support and reciprocate these groups who effectively gave the world these things that are now being medicalized, right? I do think that's important. Do think that's really important.

• 1:38:25Speaker 02

  Especially since some of these folks operate in such hostile territories. I mean, you've got like illegal mining interests, you've got logging agriculture narcos. Like, you know, these folks are routinely assassinated indigenous leaders all over the place. Like in Brazil, Colombia, Mexico. It's a very, very tough world that they inhabit in a lot of ways. What got you interested in psychedelics to begin with? I've always been interested in altered states of consciousness ever since I was a little kid. And I don't know exactly where that comes from.

• 1:39:03Speaker 02

  I think it was just suspecting that there was, on some level, I think,

• 1:39:09Speaker 02

  researchers like Donald Hoffman, he's a buckin' bronco you could have on. But there's always part of me that kind of suspected that this was what we're looking at here and experiencing. It's like a user interface. It's like a desktop on a computer where it's like, okay, we have these icons and so on that represent something, but that this is just a one interface, right? If we were a mantis shrimp or a different animal, like it wouldn't look or feel like this, right? So this is a reality, but it's not the end all be all objective reality. I always just had that feeling.

• 1:39:48Speaker 02

  And you can explore that through a purely scientific physicalist lens, right? You don't have to get out there, you don't have to be running around the full moon, swinging the dead cat over your head with a hawk wing, right? Like, you don't have to get into pure woo territory to ask some questions about things. And then I would say later, I was always interested in mythology. And my mom got me this crazy book, I think it was on the remainder table, called A Lycanthropy Reader. And a lycanthropy reader was a historical collection of essays on the mythology and belief of shape shifting.

• 1:40:34Speaker 02

  Which you see in pretty much every culture, right? Whether it's like North American Plains Indians or Siberia or wherever, right? And there were chapters in there about the use of different plants. So Mandrake, Belladonna, Henbane, et cetera, by quote unquote witches or werewolves, right? Who would basically go on these incredible psychotropic journeys and then come back with stories of shape shifting, which are still very common in the Amazon, by the way. These, this belief and these, these type of stories. I mean, they would, they might call them skills or powers, right?

• 1:41:19Speaker 02

  I mean, dieting certain plants is intended to help you with some of this stuff. So that opened the door to me asking like, okay, let's just assume for the time being that people cannot turn into animals. But like, the idea that you could ingest a plant or put on a salve that would so fundamentally change your consciousness that you would come back with complete belief that you had done it was also interesting to me. And so I then became this sort of intrepid, very amateur biochemist, looking at how that might happen, right? And so you combine that then with the fear of Alzheimer's in my family. And it just led me to really want to focus on brain function.

• 1:42:02Speaker 02

  And a few things happened around the same time. Towards the end of high school, I read a book called Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming by Stephen LeBerge. And still to this day, I think it is one of the most impressive books I have found for teaching a skill in a systematic way. And it teaches you how to induce lucidity in your dreams. And it's, it's nothing Mysterious, I shouldn't say that. It is, it is provable within the confines of laboratory that you can cultivate the ability to control your dreams and become conscious in your dreams.

• 1:42:47Speaker 02

  And, and the way they demonstrate, the way they demonstrated this is like, got an EEG or other means of confirming that someone is in a sleep state. And you devise in advance, for instance, eye movement, like when you're asleep, what happens? Rapid eye movement, right? Your eye movement still correlates to what you're doing in a dream. So you determine in advance a sequence between experimenter and subject where it's like Morse code. Basically, it's like right, right, left, right, right, left, right, right, left. And then when the person's in the dream, they just perform that eye sequence. Are you kidding me? Yeah, so as I started really, once I got accepted to college, I was like, I can do whatever I want now.

• 1:43:31Speaker 02

  Like, he's just, he's just basically wrestling. All I want to do is compete and go to nationals and do well and lucid dreaming. That was it. And within pretty short order, I'd say within a month or so, some people come to it very naturally. Within a month or so, I could get to the point where I was inducing lucidity like once or twice a night. And that is a, that is a bizarre experience. When you get to the point where you can actually modify your dream at will or extend your dream in certain ways. And at first, I'm gonna tell everybody in advance, what you're gonna do, you might protest, but what everyone's gonna do is they're gonna do two things.

• 1:44:13Speaker 02

  They're gonna fly as much as possible and they're gonna fuck as many people as possible. Those are the two things everyone's gonna do. So then you'll like, you'll fly around and fuck everybody for a while. And then you can, and then, and then you can start messing around in some really peculiar ways. So what I was doing at the time, one of my favorite wrestlers, just a phenom, John Smith from Oklahoma. Famous for low leg attacks. Never met the guy, but I watched tons of video. So at night, in my dreams, I would have wrestling practice with John Smith. Okay. And it improved my wrestling in real life.

• 1:44:52Speaker 02

  So there are some really unexpected levers that you can pull and corners you can explore just through lucid dreaming. And it does take work. You have to train up to it. You have to have a very scheduled way to record dream content. Like it is a practice. But that also kind of raised a lot of questions. Like, huh, okay. Well, if I learned something 10 years ago, could I use lucid dreaming to go back and pull those books up the shelf? Is that possible? Maybe. And then I would say very early college. So this would have been, actually, no, it was still in high school.

• 1:45:35Speaker 02

  In, at the very end of high school, I had my first experiences with psychedelics with mushrooms first and LSD. And after that, I was like, oh, okay. I don't understand how my experience of time can be cut up into slices and rearranged in the way that I just experienced it last night. That is, that is, it doesn't really fit with my consensus experience of this reality. So what does that mean? I have no idea, but I'm interested in exploring what that might mean.

• 1:46:18Speaker 02

  So when I went to Princeton, I went to Princeton for a couple of reasons. Or I applied to Princeton early action, which is like an exploding offer. In retrospect, I think I would have been much happier somewhere else. Princeton, that was a very difficult, stiff environment for me. But I went there because they had one of the best East Asian studies departments in the world, really phenomenal, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, et cetera.

• 1:46:44Speaker 02

  They had a very, very strong psychology and neuroscience program. It's like Danny Kahneman was there. There was a guy named Barry Jacobs, who had done a bunch of research with LSD. And did a lot of research also on the serotonergic system involving cats and stuff, because cats kind of sleep all the time. I really wanted to work in his lab. And then, thirdly, there was something at the time, I was very sad that it ended up getting wound down, maybe a year after I got there. But there was something at Princeton called the Pear Lab. P E A R. Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Laboratory. Where, I think, I could be getting some of the details wrong, but I'm pretty sure,

• 1:47:28Speaker 02

  at one point, they had military funding, or, you know, three-letter acronym funding. They also had money, I want to say, from like, SRI International, to use sort of computational and quantitative measures to study things like telekinesis, remote viewing, et cetera. And literally, that had been started by, I want to say, Professor John, J A H N, I believe it was. And, somebody should fact-check this, but I'm getting pretty close. I think he was the former dean of the engineering department, or Engineering Quadrangle. And one of his post, not post-docs, but one of his grad students had looked at human influence on random number generators.

• 1:48:13Speaker 02

  And he was like, "Really?" And he was like, "Look, if you want to waste your time on this, it's not going to help you with anything. Looks like a terrible idea to me." And then, when all the data came back, he was like, "Hmm, okay." And ultimately, became so interested that he spearheaded this Engineering Anomalies Research Laboratory. And I wanted to know what the hell they had figured out. I wanted to get a read on what they felt like they had figured out. And this is a, I mean, this is a high-end...

• 1:48:48Speaker 02

  Incredibly credible engineer, right? This isn't some rando. This is someone who was on the far side, extreme skeptic, end of things, who ended up then spearheading this. You can still end up with beliefs that you want confirmation for. So again, the purpose of the scientific method, which is really a framework for thinking, is to prevent you from fooling yourself. Right? But all of those things came together, to answer your question. And I was like, you know what? I think that, I think all of these things, if for the moment, we provisionally say that maybe some of those phenomena

• 1:49:32Speaker 02

  have something to them, right? In the anomalies research laboratory, even if you exclude that, psychedelics, lucid dreaming, certain types of like religious experience that I'd read about. I was like, I feel like there's a possibility these are all touching like the hem of the same garment.

• 1:49:50Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:49:52Speaker 02

  And perhaps that's all internally generated. Maybe it's like a temporal lobe epilepsy, kind of seizure. Like when you look back a lot of scripture, it's like, hmm, that sounds a lot like seizure. But does that invalidate it? I don't know. Like, some of the most creative people we've ever known have also had something very similar. So it's like, alright. All of it meant like, I want to know what the hell is going on in here. If that is impossible, how do you even study it? It's like three pounds of fat sitting in this skull. What do you even do to study that? So, I mean, all of those things, I would say catalyzed it then, went, went pretty hard in the paint

• 1:50:37Speaker 02

  with all of that for a while. And then, since I had no, certainly no training. My friends and I had no training in how to structure psychedelic experiences. And I had a terrifying experience of coming out of a mushroom psychedelic experience in the middle of the night because my asshole friends, so the three of us, had wandered off on some like hike. And I was left alone in a house and I started looping. Because I was on a bear. I'm sure, we weren't even measuring doses at the time, but I'm sure it was, in retrospect, I would say it was probably like six to eight grams of dried slawsevvy mushrooms.

• 1:51:12Speaker 02

  Which is a lot for people who don't know. And so I was looping, looping, looping, wandered over to my parents' house. And my friends were like, you definitely didn't go over there. And then the next day, my mom's like, big night, huh? And I was like, hmm, what do you mean? So that was already a problem, right? I'm tripping my balls off, sitting on like the kitchen floor with my parents. Like, that's bad enough. But when I was walking back to this other house where I was staying with my friends, I came out of my trip in pitch blackness, walking in the middle of the road and almost got hit by an oncoming car. Like, the headlights coming at me is what woke me up. And then I like jumped out of the way. And I was like, okay, we're done. And I stopped. And the only reason I got back into it, the interest always persisted.

• 1:51:57Speaker 02

  And the other things, the lucid dreaming, the neuroscience, the interest, all of that continued. But I was like psychedelics? That's off piece. And then in 2012, probably, 2012, my girlfriend at the time went on retreat to Peru and did three nights of ayahuasca and came back and was just a different person. And I was like, okay, that's interesting. And she said, you really need to do this. And I was like, I don't think so. And she said, it's 20 years of therapy in two or three nights. And I was like, damn, you know me too well. That's a pretty good pitch. And I was like, okay.

• 1:52:41Speaker 02

  And keep in mind, this is before I unpacked all the trauma stuff. But she was aware of it. And I was just white knuckling with my compartmentalization. I was like, no, I'm fine, I'm fine. And then just basically around 2012, just like, you know, the re-entry from outer space, like from the front of the halls getting red hot. And I was like, oh, okay, I'm at risk of blowing apart here. And two things simultaneously happened. One, a friend of mine, one of the most successful extreme photographers in the world, said, you need to try some type of meditation. He's like, go pay someone and do transcendental meditation. And I was like, eh, really? I'm gonna pay like, whatever it is, 500 bucks, 1500 bucks to have some guy give me a mantra and I have to give him flowers?

• 1:53:25Speaker 02

  Are you fucking kidding me? And he's like, you can afford it. And I was just like, and you're like, really? He's like, look at yourself. And I was like, all right, fine. So I started doing TM, which was actually an incredibly good investment. And the money matters. Why? Because you don't want to lose that money. And you have the accountability, so you're actually gonna do it.

• 1:53:45Speaker 02

  Secondly, I started thinking about a reentry into the playing field of psychedelics. And I was like, alright, if I'm gonna do it now that I know how to read research properly, and I have access, I was living in the Bay Area, like, I am in the epicenter in North America for exploring this type of thing, I'm gonna do it in a really conservative, step-by-step buildup, leading to, but not committed to, potentially ayahuasca. And so, just thought about how to structure it safely, you know, interviewed, for lack of a better term, like, I was hiring for a job, different facilitators, had people help

• 1:54:27Speaker 02

  me with the vetting, got reference checks, I got, you know, I really went over the top because that experience in the middle of the street had rightfully scared the hell out of me, like, I could have very easily been hit by a car. And it's like, bad things do happen, like, people jump out of windows, like, I hate to say it, but like, those things do happen. So, I wanted as many safeguards as possible, and so that was sort of starting in, let's call it, 2011, 2012, was the reentry onto the playing field. Right on, man. Yeah, but being much more, much more methodical about the whole thing. Are you a Christian? I would, I wouldn't identify as anything from a organized religion.

• 1:55:12Speaker 02

  Oh, good. I was asking, you brought up scripture a couple times. Oh, yeah, well, I mean, I think scripture, I think, doesn't matter if you're religious or not, I think you should read scripture.

• 1:55:22Speaker 02

  I think there are different ways to approach it, but, I mean, if something is sort of the, one of the foundations of Western civilization, it's like, yeah, maybe you should get familiar with it, right? Like, if you haven't read the Constitution, maybe you should read the Constitution, too. It's like, Constitution's a much shorter read, so maybe you start there, but... What do you think, what do you think happens when we die?

• 1:55:49Speaker 02

  What do I think happens when we die? I, I find it increasingly difficult to believe that we simply have a machine that gets turned off. So, I think that's informed by some of the experiences on psychedelics, and I recognize I could take, and I think it's important, if you have a strong belief...

• 1:56:11Speaker 02

  I think it's really important that you try to attack that belief with the strongest possible version of a critic's arguments, right? I really think that's important. If you want to become a better thinker and a better human, I think that's important. So I recognize that I could also make a bunch of arguments for why it should just be lights out. But if I'm looking at some of the documentation around near-death experiences, if I'm looking at like the sort of CCTV-like view from above where people are able to confirm things that

• 1:56:54Speaker 02

  happened, where objects were placed, what people said while they were clinically dead, it's hard to explain that with like hypoxia and death rattle spasms in the brain and erratic neuronal firing. Seems pretty hard to explain. And there's enough, there's enough in terms of documented cases where, at the very least, it raises some interesting questions. So what do I think happens when you die? I mean, the best placeholder that I have is that consciousness is fundamental, just like matter. I'm not even convinced time is fundamental, but yeah, Carlo Rovelli, I think his name

• 1:57:37Speaker 02

  is, like, there's, there's some really interesting writing from this on time. Like, it's, it's not as static, uniform, constant as, as one might like to think. But if consciousness on some level is fundamental, kind of Max Planck style, then I think when you die, it's like a drop returned to the ocean. You think what? I think that your consciousness is like what we experience as sort of a skin-encapsulated ego that we associate with ourself, and all of that can dissolve and go away on psychedelics, right? And you be, you have the experience of something you might call consciousness without any- Collective consciousness, is that what you're saying? What was that? A type of a collective consciousness. Sure, something like that, yeah.

• 1:58:21Speaker 02

  Where it's like, yeah, okay, you're a drop of water and you just get returned to the ocean. What does that subjectively mean? No idea, right? I mean, what's it like? What's it like? A few months before you're born, like, I don't know.

• 1:58:36Shawn Ryan?

  Exactly.

• 1:58:37Speaker 02

  I don't know. What is that like? Not the slightest clue. But, you know, I've had conversations with people like the incredible biologist, also computer scientist. And you used to talk to this guy, Michael Levin, out of Tufts,

• 1:58:53Speaker 02

  who is on the cutting edge of more things than I can even list off at this point. But if you're looking at the development of a human from embryo, and I'm getting seemingly a little off track, but I don't think so. Like, the development of consciousness, which we kind of need to define, but let's just, let's just think of it as having an identity of me, an I, that is separate from the outside. And maybe you're aware that you're aware, right? Which might distinguish humans from other species in some way. Okay. Well, when does that happen? Is there just a point in the process where it's like Frankenstein,

• 1:59:35Speaker 02

  galvanizing, it's like lights on and suddenly? Or is it, does it actually exist at a cellular or subcellular level? And it just scales up to what we experience? Kind of like a beehive. I tend to lean towards the latter, right? And I think Michael Levin would lean towards the latter. Like, very good scientists. These aren't people running around at Esalen with tinfoil hats on. I love Esalen, by the way. No smack to Esalen, I've been there before. But it's like, these are people who have some of the most analytical, critically minded

• 2:00:10Speaker 02

  brains in the scientific field. And these are, these are open questions. So,

• 2:00:18Speaker 02

  what do you think happens? When you die?

• 2:00:21Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I mean, I'm a Christian, so I think you die and you either go up or down.

• 2:00:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:27Shawn Ryan?

  But, but I don't know. I mean, when I did psychedelics, I mean, I was, I don't know if I would say I was an atheist. I wasn't an atheist. I believed in something, I just wasn't sure. Actually, I don't know. I don't even know how to explain. I didn't, I didn't think about it.

• 2:00:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:43Shawn Ryan?

  You know? And,

• 2:00:46Shawn Ryan?

  I didn't think about it until I did Ibogaine and five MEO DMT.

• 2:00:52Speaker 02

  I climbed the Mount Everest of psychedelics.

• 2:00:54Shawn Ryan?

  And then.

• 2:00:55Speaker 02

  I'm gonna go skiing. Okay, I'll do it without oxygen down Everest. Let's go.

• 2:00:57Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, and then, and then we did, you know, five MEO after that, which is a death experience. And it did, it made me realize, oh, there's definitely something after all of this.

• 2:01:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:10Shawn Ryan?

  And, uh, and so.

• 2:01:15Shawn Ryan?

  Swear it landed.

• 2:01:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, so I, I would say I was for a period of time, like eight, for lack of a better descriptor, like a militant atheist. Um, one of my friends, I was not raised religious. The, the school I went to, the private school was Episcopal. So nominally Christian, had chapel every morning outside of one or two days. But that was really for like roll call and announcements and you could go to religious service. And I would occasionally actually go to religious service.

• 2:01:46Speaker 02

  But.

• 2:01:48Speaker 02

  A friend of mine, a few years out of college, was getting divorced and he joined a church that was very, very, very extreme. And for, I would say a weaponized version of religion, like very extreme. And I was incredibly worried for him. But he was very, very, very, is very, very, very smart. And so he had done all this reading. He had kind of prepared himself for every possible counter argument. And I was like, well, I gotta stock up on some materials here. So I bought all these books and like Bertrand Russell and this, this, and this.

• 2:02:28Speaker 02

  And we would have these long debates and I'm trying to kind of prevent him from being weaponized in this church. Cause he was like the heir apparent, like he's got a really smart guy, very intense, super aggressive in everything he did. And I was very concerned, but ultimately realized that at that point in time, he, he had no safety net. He was going through this horrible divorce. His life was falling apart. His family was having all these problems. Uh, meaning his family of, of origin. And I was like, I think if, if this gets taken away, I'm not even convinced I can take it away. But if I were to be able to take it away, then what?

• 2:03:10Speaker 02

  And I was like, I'm not willing to, I would rather him roll the dice with this particular church than have on my conscience that he killed himself or something horrible happened. But from that point forward, I had this really bad taste in my mouth. And so I had really strong conviction around, not necessarily atheism, but like hyper skepticism, which I think I still have and it's served me well. But after some of these psychedelic experiences, and also just frankly, after spending time with some of these indigenous groups, with the recognition that like, some of these groups also use what we might consider like

• 2:03:53Speaker 02

  stage magic, right? Like there are performances that a mentalist or someone could potentially try to replicate, right? Just like someone can mimic remote viewing, right? Like there are people who have done this. There's a great documentary called Honest Liar that people should watch. But I've just seen too many things now and experienced too many things, not entirely on drugs, dead sober, a lot of them. Where I'm like, there's just more to the story. And we've never known the whole story. Like there's, we are very, very, very early in neuroscience and psychiatry, right? Like, it's like surgery 500 years ago. So.

• 2:04:38Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, the reason I was, the reason I'd asked you that is I was, I was gonna follow that up with, you know, what do you think? Are you, are you solely into the science of psychedelics? Or is there potentially some type of spiritual component?

• 2:04:56Speaker 02

  Oh, there's huge spiritual component. I just don't usually talk about it because I've got so much I want to do on the scientific and policy side that if I sort of show my full hand, then people are gonna be like, oh, that guy's a wackadoodle. So I haven't, I don't usually talk about the, the stuff that I can't really defend with like randomized controlled trials. I don't talk too much about typically, but there's a huge spiritual component. I don't love that word spiritual, but I don't know a better replacement.

• 2:05:26Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know.

• 2:05:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know a better replacement. But.

• 2:05:30Speaker 02

  I think that if what you're looking for is relief from something like depression, OCD, GAD, generalized anxiety disorder, I think the brain stimulation is incredibly compelling and that the effects with a successful treatment, and there are some really, there are some new approaches to that which make it really interesting, like, single day stimulations, a few minutes per hour for 10 hours straight, pre-dosing with a drug called de-cycloserine, that's it, that's the treatment, one day, and you might have durability for three to 12 months, like anxiety from 10 to 1. Wow, wow.

• 2:06:12Speaker 02

  Like, they're not, I can't say that for, I can't say that reliably for any psychedelic. So if you're looking for relief from those symptoms functioning in, in this world, I think there are a lot of tools in the toolkit, which is good news, right, metabolic psychiatry would be another example. If you're looking to tangibly touch something that feels timeless, whatever that is, right, even if it's just a hallucination, but if you're looking to touch something timeless and lose your fear of death, and I think a lot of human suffering is wrapped around

• 2:06:55Speaker 02

  being, as far as we know, the only species that is aware of its own pending death, right? I don't think you get there through brain stimulation. I do think you can get there through psychedelics, but we start getting into... Are you saying, "Take away fear of death"? Yeah. Do you fear death? No. I fear certain declines to death, but actual death, no, I do not. Do I fear something like neurodegenerative disease? Yes, I do. But death, like, nah, I mean, I, I think that...

• 2:07:38Speaker 02

  You can get more out of life if you assume that you're gonna die around the age of your grandparents, great grandparents, great great grandparents. And if I look back at my family, eighty-five for men.

• 2:07:52Speaker 02

  More or less, right? It's like, okay, great, we have antibiotics, cool. Inferior mortality way down, great. But there's not a whole lot we've found that really extends life a lot. We could talk about some things I find interesting, like sure, rapamycin might be interesting for people who have metabolic dysfunction and don't exercise much. Metformin may be interesting. Intermittent fasting and so on, sure, okay, I think there might be benefits. But they're all question marks in humans. And if you just assume you're gonna die at eighty-five, I think you make more, potentially make better use of your time. Then if you're pleasantly surprised, great.

• 2:08:34Speaker 02

  Scientists come up with some like injectable cloto or gene therapy related to cloto, which is a really interesting protein. Fantastic, all right, great, you can avail yourself of that when it comes out. But until then, read on the shortness of life by Seneca. And it's like, make every minute count, because I think you can do a lot to extend your health span, like how long you can function at a high level. And I think certainly you have a copy of Outlive by Peter Attia on your shelf. I would recommend people check that out.

• 2:09:06Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:09:07Speaker 02

  I think Peter is, he is a credible former scientist and physician who really pays attention to the details, does not sell hype. If anything, he undersells certain things, which I appreciate. So I do think there are ways, and Peter's a better resource for that, but he's also my doctor, so.

• 2:09:34Shawn Ryan?

  Nice.

• 2:09:35Speaker 02

  We have known him since 2008.

• 2:09:39Speaker 02

  So yeah, make the most of your time, but like when your clock is up, your clock just might be up.

• 2:09:43Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09:45Shawn Ryan?

  Well, Tim, let's take a quick break. When we come back, I'd like to dive into conception of time.

• 2:09:50Speaker 02

  Oh, let's do it.

• 2:09:52Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Perfect.

• 2:09:56Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 2:10:25Shawn Ryan?

  Want more from the Sean Ryan Show? Join our Patreon today for more clips and exclusive content. You'll get an exclusive look behind the scenes, where you can watch the guests interact with the team and explore the studio before every episode. Plus, unlock bonus content, like our extra intel segments, where we ask our guests additional questions. Our new SRS onsite specials, and access to an entire tactical training library you will not find anywhere else. And the best part? Patreon members can ask our guests questions directly. Your insights can help shape the show. Join us on Patreon now, support the mission, and become part of the Sean Ryan Show's story.

• 2:11:10Shawn Ryan?

  All right, Tim, we're back from the break.

• 2:11:13Shawn Ryan?

  Getting ready to move into perception of time. We were having a mini-conversation about it. I think I cut you off at breakfast, because I was like, oh shit, we gotta talk about this. So I mean, it is, it's a fast, it's a, I mean, I think about it all the time. A lot of the things that we've discussed already today, I've been thinking about a lot, especially the slowing down thing. Or not the slowing down thing, the simplification, pretending that you're in poverty, and then realizing, oh shit.

• 2:11:44Speaker 02

  I can survive.

• 2:11:45Shawn Ryan?

  This is nice.

• 2:11:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:11:46Shawn Ryan?

  It's nice not having shit to do. It's nice not having an agenda. It's nice not being in the fucking grind all the time.

• 2:11:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:11:54Shawn Ryan?

  And, but it's interesting. As nice as it is, we, for some reason, refuse to pull ourselves out of it.

• 2:12:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that most of us, if we're attempting to have healthy social fabric, live within the context of a society or a culture, and there are certain norms, there are certain expectations, there are certain rewards, and...

• 2:12:22Speaker 02

  It's very difficult and also probably undesirable to operate completely monastically outside of all of that. But what that means is at every turn, every moment, you will have temptation to do something that is probably not serving your long-term interests.

• 2:12:39Shawn Ryan?

  You know, I mean, you're, you are, 100% agree with that. You're a well-traveled guy. I'm a well-traveled guy. I am very curious. Let's say there's a happiness scale.

• 2:12:52Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:12:53Shawn Ryan?

  Where does the US lie compared to a lot of the other places that you've been? And then I'll share mine.

• 2:13:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I would say in the last, I'll back up and just say, in the last 10 years in particular, I've been exploring a lot of the US. It is a huge country with so much diversity, and I don't mean diversity in the DEI sense. I mean diversity in the cultural sense where if we take culture to be a shared set of beliefs and behavior, so I go into Louisiana versus going to Upper Peninsula of Michigan versus going to Maine, they might as well be different countries. Sure, we ostensibly have the same language, but they're really, really different.

• 2:13:43Speaker 02

  So I think the the default baseline of happiness that I observe throughout the US varies quite a lot. But I would say if we're looking at countries, I don't know if I'm going to get myself into hot water with some folks, but this is just what I've observed. I would say that where you have rich social fabric and human interactions, combined with some sense of safety, there are different types of safety you could have. That could be physical safety, that could be a social net of some type with healthcare, as would be the case, say, in a Denmark, for instance.

• 2:14:30Speaker 02

  Those things combined, which offer a certain level of predictability, not predictability across the board, but I'm not sure how heavily to weight various polls and happiness reports, but you might have, say, for instance, a few years ago, you had Singapore, which is fascinating, little country, right? A little postage stamp, but like from swamp to what it's become is fascinating. It's a leigh quan you and so on. Nonetheless, like highly structured, quite strict, predictable, but purportedly a high level of self-reported happiness. Okay. Then you take that and you compare it to, say, Denmark, and you could

• 2:15:14Speaker 02

  point out a lot of differences, but if you talk to Danes about why they might rank highly on these happiness report cards, they'll get some serious responses, mostly around like the social safety net, frankly, specifically as it relates to healthcare, I would say, and physical safety. So they don't have to worry about their kids running around outside, et cetera. I did have one friend, because you might guess from the size of my head, I've got some Scandinavian genes. So one of my Danish friends who's like, I said, why are you guys so happy on these reports? And he goes, low expectations. Now, I think

• 2:15:57Speaker 02

  there's actually something deeply profound about that, in a way. Low expectations? Well, if happiness is, if happiness is, and I'm not the first person to come up with this, but reality minus expectations, it's like, well, you can work on both of those, right? What do you expect? What do you feel entitled to versus your reality? And you can, you can work on either side, if that is in fact. Do you think entitlement is the same as high expec- I mean? They're not the same. They're not the same. Okay. I would say that entitlement is a perverted type of high expectations in excess. So there's.

• 2:16:43Speaker 02

  They're they're kind of different windows through which you can look at high expectations. I have high expectations. Look, if like someone's working on my team, if I'm working with someone, if I'm in a relationship, like I have high expectations of myself and I have high expectations of pretty much everyone around me.

• 2:16:59Speaker 02

  In terms of, let's just call it the professional context, like certain core tenets, commitment to excellence, shipping and meeting deadlines, right? Certain things that are non-negotiable.

• 2:17:12Speaker 02

  When you feel like you should have A, B, and C, I deserve D, E, and F. I think that's where you get into murkier waters. But then if you look at like a Costa Rica, right? Which was also in the report that I looked at, top three. What do they have? Very rich social environments, right? Whether it's extended family or walkable neighborhoods, et cetera. You can find a lot of these things in the US, maybe minus the healthcare piece. But you can find a lot of those elements in the US. So the way you might interact with people in, say, Indiana or Boulder is very different from how you're going to interact with people on like the Upper East Side.

• 2:17:57Speaker 02

  Wouldn't say the happiness seems very high on the Upper East Side. Not say that. So what's your, what's been your experience?

• 2:18:05Shawn Ryan?

  With with happiness and travel on the world?

• 2:18:08Speaker 02

  Happiness in other places. I mean, some of the happiest people I've ever met have been, to come to mind, Ethiopians in the in the Tigray area, which is like, I don't think you can even travel there right now. Dirt poor in villages and Shanghan people in South Africa also. I mean, not quite as destitute, but very rough situation, displaced people.

• 2:18:32Shawn Ryan?

  I would say, and this is just my perception, you know what I mean? So.

• 2:18:40Shawn Ryan?

  Minus the war torn countries that I've been to, I've been to a lot of third world, you know, countries and extreme poverty. And I really, I have to say that I, I think that the countries in poverty seem to be more happy than we are here at the US who have literally every fucking thing we can think of at the fingertips.

• 2:19:06Speaker 02

  All right. So if I'm gonna armchair quarterback this, which why not, since I'm sitting in an armchair, I would say, I think that having everything is part of the recipe for dissatisfaction, right? You start fearing having those things taken away. I do think your level of entitlement goes up. And there's a great book by Sebastian Younger called Tribe. I really recommend everyone read this. Sebastian has been through some shit.

• 2:19:37Shawn Ryan?

  That's about, that's about, that's about PTSD and he wrote a book on PTSD. I don't know if it's called Tribe. I know, I know who this is.

• 2:19:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. Tribe, Sebastian Younger.

• 2:19:47Shawn Ryan?

  It's about veterans, I believe.

• 2:19:49Speaker 02

  It includes a lot of discussion of veterans. Tribe really talks about social cohesion. But if you look at, for instance, I think the example, there, there are a number of examples he gave, but looking at World War II bombing in the UK and how die, admitances to hospitals and other, the number of different ways you could explain this, but effectively the incidence of mental illness, suicide, et cetera, all seem to plummet while the city's being bombed. What's going on there? And you see a similar pattern in other places. Well, I think that when you have seemingly everything.

• 2:20:32Speaker 02

  You by default, almost necessarily can easily end up majoring in minor things. Right? Because you don't have any major problem to deal with. But humans love having problems and solving problems. In order to solve problems, you have to have problems. So I think humans are problem solving machines. But the dark side of that is you can become a problem seeking machine, problem creating machine. So these small things take on the proportion of something big. Right? It's kind of like, I'm sure a lot of people have had the experience where it's just like, there's, there's some old cat lady in the neighborhood who's part of the HOA. And man, is she just a pain in the balls. Like she's just like every, okay, so and so didn't put out the recycling bin.

• 2:21:17Speaker 02

  So and so didn't whatever. It's because she doesn't have anything else to do that is bigger, right? That is kind of forcing her hand. So if you're really way up on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, I think it's easy to become more sensitive to slight turbulence in life, which is also a part of the reason for practicing not just minimalism, not just necessarily poverty, but like subjecting yourself to shared privation. Right? Like the things I do with friends are definitely type two fun, maybe type three fun. Right? It's like, sure, okay, we might do like a ski touring trip.

• 2:21:55Speaker 02

  That's mostly suffering. It's like, yeah, you're going to spend an hour and a half going up the hill for six turns down. Like if you just want to ski, that's a terrible way to do it. But you get through that experience, you're stuck in a snowstorm. It's white out. I'm not, by the way, suggesting that everyone do this. There, there are scaled down versions of it.

• 2:22:14Shawn Ryan?

  It creates a bond.

• 2:22:15Speaker 02

  Creates a bond.

• 2:22:16Shawn Ryan?

  Creates a bond because you have overcome some type of adversity.

• 2:22:19Speaker 02

  Exactly. So in a world or in a, an environment that doesn't offer you those things. And by the way, there are lots of reasons why you would want a more comfortable experience. I'm not saying go move to Sierra Leone, right? So I'm incredibly grateful for just this number of miracles effectively that ended up with me being born here, having the opportunities, et cetera. Hugely beyond grateful. I do not take it for granted. And I do think that in the absence of real environmental stressors, we are built to overcome and adapt to stress.

• 2:23:01Speaker 02

  And there's a book called The Comfort Crisis, I believe, that really delves into this. But it's like, there is a great argument to be made for engineering certain stress into your life, including physical stress. And

• 2:23:15Shawn Ryan?

  I think veterans are amazing at that.

• 2:23:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:23:19Shawn Ryan?

  I'm amazing at that. So.

• 2:23:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. I should say also, I mean, you know, obviously, multitudes more veterans than I do, but a couple of my best friends are vets. And I think that if you don't very explicitly consciously engineer suffering, it sounds strange to put it that way, but it really is like adversity, suffering, stress into your life. There is, I think, an innate push to manifest it subconsciously while it seeps through the edges. And that might take the form of slow burn workaholism, right?

• 2:24:04Speaker 02

  It might take the form of certain types of self sabotage. It might take the form of blowups and arguments with your wife. It might take the form of fill in the blank. And I have just found it so incredibly, and I've seen this too, and a lot of my listeners and readers over decades, it's like when you engineer in periods of stress, some of those other things just resolve themselves in an unexpected way. It's not always the case. I mean, you still need to be able to talk to your wife. But it's like, if you're a working dog, like you need a job, right? Can't be a border collie stuck behind a laptop all day. You're gonna go crazy, start chewing on the couch.

• 2:24:48Shawn Ryan?

  Are you happy?

• 2:24:49Speaker 02

  I feel like I am the happiest, we could definitely pull apart that term and what it means, but I would say I am the most at peace. That's that's more my goal than happiness, I would say.

• 2:25:05Speaker 02

  You're reluctant to say that you're happy. Well, I feel like I'm reluctant to say happy because I'm such a stickler. It's could be the OCD kicking in, but for terms, right? When people are like, I just want to be successful. I'm like, let's talk about that. And very carefully, right? When people get into fights about God, I'm like, you guys talking about the same thing? Like, let's make sure we're talking about the same thing. I am very happy right now. I have great relationships. I have, you know, taking care of people I care about, doing meaningful work, very happy. But I think happiness comes and goes. So looking for a steady state of smiles, I think is a fool's errand because you're going to be disappointed.

• 2:25:49Speaker 02

  And if we come back to the sort of, let's say, long-term durable happiness is reality minus expectations. If my expectation is I'm never going to have hard days, I'm never going to have moments of self-loathing, then in the long term, I think I'm handicapping my peace of mind. Does that make any sense? If, for instance, right? I can give a lot of examples of this. If you're trying to learn a language, which I think, I think people can become, let's just say, native English speakers, conversationally fluent in a bunch of languages in like eight to 12 weeks, if they're really dedicated themselves, no magic trick involved, like there's a very methodical way to do it. I mean, look at the Defense Language Institute, Monterey, like the stuff they can do is incredible with language instruction.

• 2:26:33Speaker 02

  They're very interested in bioelectric medicine, too, by the way, potentially as an augment. But if you're going to learn a language, if you expect your progress to look like this, right? Weight training, same thing, doesn't, skill acquisition, it's going to be lumpy, right? You're going to have predictable setbacks. It's like, okay, you memorized 100 phrases, fantastic, or 100 words. Man, you're going to be making rocket-like progress. But as soon as you start introducing a little more complicated grammar, which you need to do to make it for the long game, you're going to feel like you're getting worse. Your ability to juggle those balls is going to take time for adaptation, and you're going to get worse. Boom, boom, boom, and then up and then down, and then maybe there's more plateau.

• 2:27:17Speaker 02

  And if you know these in advance, you can kind of plan for them, right? In the service of the long-term goal of being fluent in the language. But if you have a teacher who's trying to do the right thing and they tell you everything's gonna be great, you know, just one step in front of the other, you know, slow and steady wins the race and you expect it to be this linear progression, you're gonna get crushed as soon as you suffer a setback. And I feel like psychologically, uh, this is where stoicism is such an incredible arrow in the quiver. It's just expecting people to be like Marcus Aurelius meditation. It's like effectively like when you go out, like expect people to be insolent and rude. Expect people to disappoint you. Expect A, B, and C.

• 2:28:02Speaker 02

  And it's a, there's a thin line between that and just being pessimistic or nihilistic, right? But.

• 2:28:11Shawn Ryan?

  But I think you're just talking about drive. Personal drive.

• 2:28:17Speaker 02

  There's.

• 2:28:18Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, if, if it was easy and the incline was like this.

• 2:28:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:28:22Shawn Ryan?

  Said it a thousand times, everybody would fucking do it.

• 2:28:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:28:27Shawn Ryan?

  Then you hit a setback and 75% of the people fucking quit.

• 2:28:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:28:33Shawn Ryan?

  You know what I mean?

• 2:28:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:28:35Shawn Ryan?

  But the drive keeps the 25% going.

• 2:28:36Speaker 02

  Totally. And I think that there's, there's just like baseline drive. It's like, okay, what kind of engine do you have? And then there's how do you drive the car? And it's almost like rally racing. Like I did a little bit of training in rally racing, which is incredibly dangerous, but also.

• 2:28:53Shawn Ryan?

  No shit?

• 2:28:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:28:55Shawn Ryan?

  The whole team here is going to the, where'd you go to rally racing school?

• 2:28:58Speaker 02

  I went to New Hampshire.

• 2:29:00Shawn Ryan?

  Dude.

• 2:29:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:29:02Shawn Ryan?

  You went to O'Neil.

• 2:29:03Speaker 02

  I went to O'Neil.

• 2:29:04Shawn Ryan?

  Fucking awesome. I went to O'Neil.

• 2:29:06Speaker 02

  It's great. It's amazing.

• 2:29:08Shawn Ryan?

  I love that school.

• 2:29:09Speaker 02

  Hilarious. So, yeah, so I went to O'Neil. As you know, pretty, pretty risky endeavor. What do you, okay, what does that look like? Well, you have a navigator in the case of your own life, like you are both the driver and the navigator. And are you going to take a rally course, race at high speed without studying the course? Fuck no. You need to know if it's like right three or right one, right? Or you're going to hit a tree because you need to plan for all of these subtleties of the course in advance. So all I'm saying is if you have this drive, which is like the base engine, right? Some of, some people I think are just born with a huge engine, right? Like they're born in a Ferrari.

• 2:29:51Speaker 02

  Uh, other people might be born in like a Miata, but guess what? It's like, I've seen pro drivers in a Miata, smoke people in McLarens on a driving course.

• 2:30:02Speaker 02

  Why? They know the course. They've trained. They have fundamentals. Yeah. And similarly, like I don't think, in some ways, I think I have certain advantages, but I do not have like a huge psychological buffer. Some people have incredible inbuilt, I really think, psychological resilience, like they have a lot of margin of safety. I don't have that, right? I do not have the batteries and infinite endurance of some serial entrepreneurs I've seen, or professional athletes, right? It's just like they have different, like Kobe Bryant, or, uh, I mean, you could look Travis Kalanick of Uber or whatever, like just like different batteries. These guys are coming to the table with a different engine.

• 2:30:46Speaker 02

  But you can give yourself a competitive advantage if you know the track. So for me, with anything, it's like, know the track. What does that look like? What does that mean? Well, kind of a, it knows, like it's identifying in advance. If you're learning anything, doing anything, like where am I going to be most likely to quit? What are the failure points? Why do other people quit? When do they quit? And then if you know in advance, like, okay, it's very likely three months into this, that I'm going to hit like a crisis of meaning and I'm going to plateau and I'm going to be tempted to quit. If you know that in advance, when you hit it, your little engine is enough to get you past that plateau. So I just, I think about that a lot, right? It's like, if people aren't following, why do some people quit diets? Why did so many people make New Year's resolutions?

• 2:31:30Speaker 02

  And then by February one, they're long gone. Smoke, exhaust in the rearview mirror. It's like, part of it is, they have these very optimistic, well-intentioned visions of what they're gonna do, where they go to the gym three times a week, it never gets interrupted, they don't need to make a phone call, they never get into an argument about who's gonna watch the kids, and as a result, they don't have any type of safety net on that plan. So, I would say, you know, these are some of the ways that I think about it. I know there's a lot there, but.

• 2:32:09Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I mean, one thing you said about happiness is, I think you said this, I know this, high expectations can be a roadblock.

• 2:32:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a double-edged sword.

• 2:32:22Shawn Ryan?

  You said you have exceedingly high expectations. So I'm curious, how did you overcome those high expectations to find happiness?

• 2:32:31Speaker 02

  Uh.

• 2:32:32Shawn Ryan?

  Cause I struggle with this.

• 2:32:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I struggle with it.

• 2:32:36Shawn Ryan?

  I have extremely high expectations.

• 2:32:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've struggled with my whole life. I think I have found certain approaches and tools that have helped me to use the double-edged sword without holding the blade as a handle, right? And I expect, here's the other thing, I expect this will always be a challenge. So I'm not gonna beat the shit out of myself if I don't eradicate it like polio once and forever, right? It's like, right, it's like, this is, this is part, I think, of my hardwiring. I really do. It's not, not to belabor the dog.

• 2:33:13Shawn Ryan?

  You wouldn't be where you are without high expectations, though, either.

• 2:33:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. And, you know, I think that I'm at a point also where it's like the incremental dollar or whatever, the incremental media mention is not worth as much as the incremental hour or even 15 minutes with someone I deeply care about. And those are very, mastering, it sounds strange to say this, but becoming good at those two sides of the track are very different things. They require different skill sets. So for me, I would say, first of all,

• 2:33:54Speaker 02

  I think high expectations can be great. I think it can be amazing. And, you know, while, I guess, arca locas way back in the day, right? We do not rise to the level of our hopes. We fall to the level of our training. Like, I think that's a real thing. So, hope alone is not enough. Expectations alone is not enough. But I would say that for me, realizing that what you do matters a lot more than how you do any one thing is critical. What do I mean by that? So, what you do versus how you do. This seems kind of strange. In other words, you can get really, really good at having high expectations for things

• 2:34:37Speaker 02

  that don't matter very much and being perfectionist about little things. But that doesn't really move the needle for you or other people. You can spend your whole life focusing on little things. I think that's going to become the default for most of humankind in the next few years with AI. Like, the idea that we're all going to have this incredible leisure class with tons of free time, complete nonsense. It's never happened with any technology before.

• 2:35:02Shawn Ryan?

  It's going to get worse. The parents are coming out.

• 2:35:05Speaker 02

  So, I would say that there's a book called The 80/20 Principle by Richard Koch, K-O-C-H. Read that. And this comes back to what I mentioned earlier, which is you really don't have to get a lot of things right to have an amazing life. So, I used to over-optimize. I would attempt to optimize almost everything because I felt like I had the bandwidth to do it. Maybe I did. But that can make you an insufferable son of a bitch, not just to other people, but to yourself, right? Because if you have unreasonable, unhelpful expectations in environments that you cannot control, interpersonal relationships, your girlfriend or wife or husband or whatever,

• 2:35:50Speaker 02

  your kids, you're going to drive not only yourself, but the people around you, completely insane. So... You know, when I sat down here, you might remember this, there was a little piece of paper stuck in here from a prior guest, Serenity Prayer. And I folded it up and I was like, oh, I like the Serenity Prayer, and I put it in my pocket. Serenity Prayer is Stoicism, right? Being able to, you know, separate things you can control versus things you can't control, and then the wisdom, hopefully, and experience to be able to tell the difference. And I've realized that being incredibly forgiving while knowing your non-negotiables

• 2:36:30Speaker 02

  upfront with interpersonal relationships is, for me at least so far, like the path to intimacy and longevity and happiness and peace. And then with other types of compartment, I shouldn't say compartmentalized, silos in my life, let's just say maybe it's writing a book, having like unforgivably high standards, but with a deadline so that I'm not allowed to procrastinate forever. Because if I don't have a boss and I don't, that perfectionism can turn into permanent, meaning you're not shipping anything. Yeah. So I still apply super high standards for myself with certain non-negotiables

• 2:37:14Speaker 02

  related to physical training or to building a, cultivating and developing, conditioning a mental reserve, right? To hopefully stave off things like neurodegenerative disease. Those are all non-negotiable, but with human interactions, I think I have really learned through fucking it up over and over and over again.

• 2:37:42Speaker 02

  I mean, really, it's just like, God, I look back at some of my past girlfriends, I'm like, God bless you, you saints, like, God, I was such a pain in the ass. And I was so convinced I was right, so convinced I was right about so much, and guess what? It doesn't matter. Maybe I was right. But I really encourage people to check out, there's an amazing therapist who is brutal, but decades of experience, and I don't agree with him on everything, but Terry Reel is his name. He's gotta be one of the highest paid couples therapists in the world. He has to be. But he has a number of books. There's an audiobook, doesn't even have a print version called Fierce Intimacy,

• 2:38:25Speaker 02

  that I really recommend people listen to. So they have a toolkit for communicating in intimate relationships. Because I don't think men and women were ever meant to spend as much time together as they do now. That's a very unnatural situation, I think. And as a result, we need tools that we did not historically need. And I think Terry is very good at providing a toolkit for modern relationships. But one of his tenets is like, there's no place for objective reality in most relationship disputes. And he gives this example of like, husband and wife go out to dinner. Waiter comes over to take the order. Waiter leaves and the husband's like, honey, you don't have to yell. And she's like, what? I wasn't yelling. And he's like, no, you were yelling. And so it turns into one of these things, right?

• 2:39:10Speaker 02

  It starts to spiral out. And now their date has turned into a heated debate where people are getting ramped up. And the point Terry makes is like, the husband could say, like, honey, I knew you were gonna say that. So actually, I hired a team of professional audiologists and recording artists. They have mic'd our table and everything around us. And based on this decibel level, you were, in fact, yelling. Like, you think that's gonna help things? Probably not. I don't think so. So, once you, I think, even as a test, an experiment, ask yourself, alright, well, if, if objective reality doesn't exist in most conflicts,

• 2:39:54Speaker 02

  and your only job, especially as a male, is to try to understand your partner's position. I think men are particularly pigheaded about this. Women can be pretty bad, too, but I think men are much worse. And to really understand why they feel the way they do, what if done differently would have changed anything. It's like, man, so many of the problems just go away. It's kinda like meditating, where it's like, don't fix anything. Just like, actually, don't try to fix anything. Just sit there and develop more awareness. And they're like, oh, all these problems go away. Oh, my friend's chronic pain went away. What's going on? Who cares about the mechanism? It's like, going from problem solving, right? Which is closely related to problem-seeking, to...

• 2:40:40Speaker 02

  Understanding someone's inner experience as opposed to trying to like validate your objective reality. May sound a little squishy, but like, listen to Terry Real, gives you a lot of practical tools and language you can use. That is a huge part of life, as I've already talked about, that I've revamped my entire way I think about my calendar, the entire way I commit time, defend time, say no to things around these most important life giving, energy giving relationships. And that means how you navigate those, how you interact with people, how you cultivate your EQ, how you feel what someone is saying, not just listen to what they're saying, preparing

• 2:41:24Speaker 02

  to offer them some words of condolence, maybe that's not what they need. Like bearing witness to that person in a true felt sense is, it's like if my 20-year-old self could hear me saying this, like would have vomited in his mouth, but it's like, at that time, I was a bull in a china shop. I was leaving just a wake of collateral damage in my relationships. Not because I was abusive, like was not abusive, I saw enough of that, didn't want to, no thanks, but I wasn't available. I was, I was very, very concerned with being right. And I think if you're instead, even in the case of work, like dedicated to what you put out in the world, but it's someone else's idea, or if you just want, if they need to

• 2:42:09Speaker 02

  believe it's their idea, fine. Sure. Why not? Could just be getting older and softening around the edges, I don't know, not as much piss and vinegar.

• 2:42:18Shawn Ryan?

  Talking about saying no to certain things, but I want to go there too, but first, I'm about 45 minutes ago, we were going to talk about the perception of time.

• 2:42:28Speaker 02

  Perception of time.

• 2:42:29Shawn Ryan?

  How fast it goes.

• 2:42:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. These are all tied together also.

• 2:42:32Shawn Ryan?

  Sounds like you've done a lot of thinking about that.

• 2:42:33Speaker 02

  Done a lot of thinking, done a lot of, what do I call it? Flight time in different states too, which can stress test a lot of the subjective experiences we have around time.

• 2:42:49Speaker 02

  I would encourage, it can be hard. You can watch his TED, not TED Talks. You can watch his YouTube videos and so on before digesting videos. But Carlo Rovelli is a physicist, I believe he's most focused on quantum gravity. And he has some really thought provoking writing on time. I think one of his books is called The Order of Things. But you realize pretty quickly that even within the halls of quantum physics and mathematics, like time is not this straightforward thing. Like a clock at your head runs at a different speed than a clock at your foot.

• 2:43:31Speaker 02

  And when you start to look at these fundamental equations, I'd say maybe especially quantum gravity, time becomes this very slippery thing, right? Like it's kind of like money. Like money is real in practice, but it's actually an abstraction. Not like you can use it, but it's, it's really an abstraction. If you think about like the, there's a book called The Biography of a Dollar about the history of money, which is worth reading. Like it's a very useful abstraction, but it's an abstraction. And so you can, you can certainly, just from a secular scientific perspective, from credible sources like Carlo, read enough where you start to scratch your head.

• 2:44:16Speaker 02

  And you're like, okay, wait a second. Okay. Does that mean that in certain experiments like A comes before B, but B also comes before A until they're observed? Like, okay, that's strange. And is it possible that time is actually more like a book? And sure, we're on page 237, but like all the pages are already there. We just happen to be in the middle. Like, is that actually something that Interesting. could be defensible? In which case, let's just say, right? And again, I'm very careful with this stuff. But if that were the case, then is something like precognition that crazy?

• 2:44:59Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't know. Is it even precognition? Or is it just cognition?

• 2:45:07Speaker 02

  And look, I've spent a lot of time around magicians and illusionists and people who are incredible at mentalism, because I don't want to fool myself, right? I want to know, if you wanted to fake this, how would you do it? If you wanted to try to replicate these phenomena and fool an audience, how would you do it? But there's still like a flickering of a sliver of some examples that are pretty interesting that raise more questions than they answer. Same with UAPs and stuff, right? So you can really bring this down to earth, though. It's like, all right, sure, I could read about quantum gravity, but what does that mean for me?

• 2:45:47Speaker 02

  It's like, well, we've all had the experience of a day that seems to last forever, or you go on a trip and you're like, wow, did we really only get here two or three days ago? Man, it feels like it's been two weeks. We've also had the experience of saying, holy shit, where did 2025 go? Mm hmm. My God, like, did the frame rate change? Like, what happened? It seems like that was just a commercial break. It was 2024, there was a commercial break, and now it's 2026. What happened? And, you know, I was just in Silicon Valley for a few weeks, hadn't been back in like eight years, and just wanted to kick around, check it out. It's having a real renaissance at the moment because of AI. Very exciting.

• 2:46:31Speaker 02

  And have a lot of old friends there. And folks have probably seen this in the news, but a lot of billionaires are preoccupied with living forever, right? Now, rich people have always been obsessed with living forever. And some of them are funding very interesting research, okay? But the goal is extending biological lifespan. So far, I think there are some things that are interesting, but certainly not definitive. Nothing is conclusive yet in humans.

• 2:47:08Speaker 02

  People have been trying to find the fountain of youth for a long time. And every generation, somebody seems to have the answer. And so far, they've all been wrong. But what if that example that I mentioned, where you experience two or three days, and it feels like two or three weeks? What if you could increase the number of experiences like that? So the way I've been thinking about it is you have biological lifespan. I'm very skeptical that we're going to be able to extend that meaningfully, at least before you and I kick the bucket. Very, very skeptical. So, all right, well, if I make it to 85, sure, there's certain things I can do. I'm not going to eat ho ho's all day. Fine.

• 2:47:52Speaker 02

  But could I increase, instead of my biological age, what about increasing my experiential age? Right? So if someone's preoccupied, they're anxious, they're depressed, right? When they're having dinner, they're thinking about what they're doing after dinner. After dinner, they're thinking about the work they're doing the next morning. That's how your weeks feel like days. But what if you can make your days feel more like weeks? All right, well, let's look at some of those experiences. Right? Whether it's like a trip where things have a lot of novelty. Okay? Novelty, maybe interesting. What else? Could be duress, stress? Like, if I put somebody on a stationary bike, and I'm like, "All right, you're going to do a Norwegian four by four." What does that mean? It's four minutes of sprinting.

• 2:48:37Speaker 02

  Like, minute one, hard. Minute two, oh, wow, this sucks. Minute three, I don't think I can make it. Minute four, like, I'm being chased by wolves, and I'm going to die. And you're going to do four rounds of that. Those, those four sets of four-minute sprints, effectively, are going to feel a lot longer. Okay, so I do think there's a certain element of stressor. Okay? What else? Well, it's like, I don't hunt often, but I hunt maybe like, eh, once or twice a year. Okay, what's happening? You're waking up in the dark, right? Probably, depending on what you're doing, if you're at high altitude, I mean, for me, high altitude, if you're, whatever, 11,000 feet. And it's the middle of the day.

• 2:49:22Speaker 02

  Haven't had any luck. What are you gonna do? You're probably gonna eat some junk food, which is like hunting is largely an excuse. Just eat a bunch of energy gels and garbage that you have. Okay, sure. So you eat your grid all the bars that you shouldn't have. That's fine. And then you're gonna take a nap. All right. And then you wake up. So these breaks that are basically separate chapters of daylight, I think, also make a big difference. And if you're going to like Italy for a few days, what are you doing? You're generally gonna be making the most of that day. And you're gonna have these kind of breaks. But you're also on vacation. Might take a nap. What else is happening? Lots of location switching. Also true in something like hunting or hiking or ski touring. There seems to be something related to context switching that increases the frame rate.

• 2:50:07Speaker 02

  So that your experience is more, it's closer to slow mo than the reverse, like fast forward. So I do think there are ways that you can begin to do your past year review. Look at experiences that felt like a lot more than they were. I had an experience like this in Japan recently. So a number of my friends, it's been a dream of theirs since I was 15 and went there as an exchange student. They've always wanted to go to Japan with me. But some of them have tighter financial situations than others. No way. All right, so how do I spend money? It's like, I'm gonna take those guys to Japan. Like, cover everything. They have to have a little skin in the game. So it's like, all right, we're all gonna get there. You have to get there. But then, once we get there, I'm gonna pay for everything. And there was one day on that trip where all of us were like,

• 2:50:50Speaker 02

  today felt like seven days. And our minds were blown. Like, the amount of time dilation versus like time constriction. Time dilation was so extreme. It was like, we sat at dinner, had a couple beers. We're just like, what just happened? Right, so like, do a little dissection of those experiences. And I really feel like if you're able to turn days into the feeling of weeks, enough in a given year, and it's like, your experiential lifespan could go from, if you're a preoccupied person who dies at 85, maybe you live 40, 50 of those years. Maybe you get to 120 experientially. And I challenge anyone.

• 2:51:33Speaker 02

  It's like, if I put an eye shade on you and give you some psychedelics, tell me that feels the same as the four to six hours you spent the day before. It's not.

• 2:51:43Shawn Ryan?

  Never does.

• 2:51:44Speaker 02

  It's gonna feel like a lifetime. Okay. But I certainly don't want to do psychedelics every day.

• 2:51:51Shawn Ryan?

  And then you don't want it, um, I don't, I never want it to end.

• 2:51:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, this is, yeah, I mean, that's a whole separate conversation, right? When navigating or putting yourself into these spaces,

• 2:52:05Speaker 02

  you know, what safeguards and intentions do you have around it? Because there are times when it's like, wow. I think for me at least, that feeling, and this, this might sound strange, but I'm just like, oh yeah, this is probably what it feels like to be dead on some level. When there's, there's no, there is an observer, there is an experiencer, but there's no space, there's no time, there's no time. I'm like, yeah, it wouldn't totally shock me if it's something like this. And in some of those experiences, like you experienced five M E O D M T, depending on the experience, but it's like, if you think back, like, could, if it gets abstract enough where you feel like you're looking at machine code, could you recall play by play what happened? Like, no, no way.

• 2:52:50Speaker 02

  Okay, can you recall what happened a month before you were born? Like, oh, maybe something like that. Who knows? Right? And then there are lots of, I would say.

• 2:53:01Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, have you heard about, we just talked about this with this,

• 2:53:05Shawn Ryan?

  with Chase Hughes, I think I was talking about this.

• 2:53:09Shawn Ryan?

  Have you heard about this guy? I think it wasn't five M E O. What's another, what's another psychedelic?

• 2:53:17Speaker 02

  Oh, there are lots. D M T?

• 2:53:18Shawn Ryan?

  No, no, no, no, it's, I can't remember the name of it.

• 2:53:21Speaker 02

  I almost got two C B L S.

• 2:53:23Shawn Ryan?

  No, it's, it's, it's something like the five M E O experience. I can't remember the name of it, but it may have been five. But this, but he did it and he had experienced an entire life.

• 2:53:36Shawn Ryan?

  Wife, kids, child, all of it.

• 2:53:39Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:53:40Shawn Ryan?

  Like seventy years, maybe, I don't, you know, had to hit a seventy year experience from child to getting married, having kids.

• 2:53:52Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:53:52Shawn Ryan?

  Probably, I don't, you know what I mean?

• 2:53:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:53:54Shawn Ryan?

  An entire lifespan.

• 2:53:57Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:53:58Shawn Ryan?

  And then comes out of it and misses, it was like fifteen minutes. And then misses where he just came from. He thinks he experienced seventy years.

• 2:54:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I am. You know, we've been talking about lucid dreaming and time dilation and all this. It's part of the reason why, like Inception, love that movie.

• 2:54:19Speaker 02

  By the way, Christopher Nolan, when he was a student way back in the day, take a quick sidebar here, would wake up early in the morning, he'd work all through the night, and he'd wake up early in the morning to get free food. There was like a free breakfast at school or whatever. So he would like work all night, wake up, have breakfast, and then go back to sleep. And what did he start getting good at? Lucid dreaming.

• 2:54:40Shawn Ryan?

  Hmm.

• 2:54:40Speaker 02

  Because that is unbeknownst to him. It's one of the techniques where you basically take a break at like four and a half hours of sleep, stay up for like twenty minutes, go back to bed. And that's what he was doing accidentally. So, yeah, Christopher Nolan, if you're listening, I want to talk to you about a lot of things. But the, uh, there are some very, very, very, very strange reports of things on psychedelics. There are also some very strange reports if you want to look at

• 2:55:08Speaker 02

  what has been done at UVA, Professor, I think his last name is Grayson, has one of the best databases in terms of documented near death experiences, and he's very clinical.

• 2:55:22Speaker 02

  If you look at that, in the same, also at UVA, they've looked at, and I recognize how easy it is to poke holes in these things, but there are, again, out of maybe a hundred quote unquote documented examples, there are, there might be like one or two where you're like, that is incredibly hard to explain. Some of the others, you're like, okay, sure, if you had a team, David Blaine's, David Blaine has an illusionist team, like they could, yeah, okay, cool, they could maybe come up with ninety-nine of these. Okay, sure. But that one, I'm not so sure. And you have stories of

• 2:55:58Speaker 02

  Reincarnation that are specific to children in India and other places. Where they'll like recount this whole life as a little kid. And they're like, yeah, it's such and such village, and I was this old, and my wife is this name, and this and this, and then they go over and like, lo and behold, like, this is not actually infrequent, like this, okay. Now, people could also be making this shit up, right? I recognize this. A lot of people send me the telepathy tapes and all this stuff, and I'm like, people also want to believe there's more than this. Because guess what? The real world is a suffer factory. And it's very, it's very comforting to believe that there's wonder and awe and some type

• 2:56:40Speaker 02

  of salve for that that's just beyond our reach, even though we can feel it's there. I recognize that. Parents might lie. They might train their kid to lie. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. But on psychedelics, man, you see some, if you get enough reps, right? And I say enough reps because I really, like, I, not to get on like a high horse, but it's like when people do psychedelics once or twice, and then they become proselytizers, I'm like, stop. You have gone skiing twice, you didn't have a catastrophic accident, and now you're teaching the world how to ski. I was like, don't do that. I was like, and it's like, skiing on ice in New England is different from skiing and forgiving champagne powder in Utah.

• 2:57:24Speaker 02

  By the way, it's like, if you're on a groomer, that's different from the moguls. If you're backcountry with avalanche risk, that's a different thing. And it's like, if you start to get more reps, like, you're gonna have accidents. Then you're gonna realize the different species of accidents, and so on, and so on, and so on, right? So when you have enough repetition, when you have enough flight time, to put it another way, in enough environments, you just start to see really, really strange things. I mean, I know, I don't want to dox him, but like, this is a friend of a friend, like, this is not a game of telephone. This is a direct friend of one of my best friends. Had an experience with NNDMT. So if it lasted 15 minutes, chances are it was 5-AMO DMT or DMT.

• 2:58:08Speaker 02

  It's kind of, it's a bit confusing because the, the phenomenological experiences, right? The subjective experiences are very different with NNDMT, which is also what people experience through ayahuasca, or 5-AMO DMT. They're very different. In terms of their effects. But if it's 15 minutes, probably one of the two. But this particular guy had this experience with with NNDMT. Feels like he gets this huge download related to physics and production of. I'm trying to protect this guy. Something related to physics at like the very outer bounds of physics. This guy has no, no history in physics whatsoever.

• 2:58:51Speaker 02

  Seems really destabilized after the event. Disappears, won't talk to his friends. It's just like online, trying to watch YouTube videos about physics, write down what he supposedly downloaded, blah, blah, blah, blah. Fast forward like two or three years, the guy is co-author on a peer reviewed public paper at like the cutting edge of physics, all based on the shit that he saw.

• 2:59:19Shawn Ryan?

  How fucking wild is that?

• 2:59:21Speaker 02

  On an experience.

• 2:59:23Shawn Ryan?

  And what do you talk that up as?

• 2:59:25Speaker 02

  No idea. I have no idea. It's, but when you, when you see that, or you see someone like spontaneously singing in a language they don't speak, you're like, okay. And there are also non-drug related examples of like, I think it's called something like immediate savant syndrome. Like someone jumps into a pool, hits their head, they wake up and they can play the piano. Like, what is going on here? Like, and that's not, that is not out on the forensic conspiracy theory. Like, there are multiple documented cases of this. What is going on? I don't know.

• 3:00:10Speaker 02

  I mean, it would certainly seem to imply that not all of our perception, access, or experience to reality is mediated by.

• 3:00:23Speaker 02

  Something local. I mean. Like it's a gate, like it's gated. Although maybe it is, although maybe it is. I mean, I mean, there are people within the exploration of psychedelics who think of the of the mind more like a receiver, right? So it's like, yeah, you can damage the brain and cause tremendous dysfunction, right? You can do that for sure. But maybe that's not because the brain itself is generating something, much like a television screen. Like, the television screen isn't generating the images you're watching. It's a receiver of some type, at least back in the day, for those people who are old enough.

• 3:01:03Speaker 02

  And at the same time, you have documented cases of people with minimal brain volume, right? Like, their brains should not function, and yet they have average IQ.

• 3:01:16Speaker 02

  And we don't really have, as far as I know, a good explanatory framework for allowing that to be possible. So I don't know. I mean, this is part of the reason why my my position is always kind of impossible until proven otherwise, but I'm open minded about it. And that's why I've poured so, I mean, millions of dollars into science, right? Because I'm like, I want to better understand this. I recognize, as Richard Feynman, Nobel Prize winning physicist said, like, it is important not to fool yourself, and you're the most, you're the easiest person to fool, right?

• 3:01:57Speaker 02

  Like, when you want something to be true, even if it's 1%, like, experimenter bias and everything, it's a real thing. You'll condemn yourself that it's, yeah. Yeah, you can just, or just look for evidence that something is real, which is why I do value the scientific method and, and have you seen Karl Popper and all falsification, all that stuff is so, so critical for us to have arrived where we are, right? Like, Western medicine is the greatest healing system that has ever been devised, period, full stop. But is it the full picture? No. Like 50%, you know, any MD, I think this is an ongoing joke, but it's, it's kind of like 50% of what we know is wrong. We just don't know which 50%.

• 3:02:40Speaker 02

  Like that, that's like a accepted sort of joke within medicine and science.

• 3:02:45Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:02:46Speaker 02

  That's always been true. So.

• 3:02:48Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, just as much research as you've done into psychedelics, you're talking about downloading machine code. Have you?

• 3:02:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:02:54Shawn Ryan?

  Have you read about the laser, the ones and zeros inside the laser?

• 3:03:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I did. I did. I looked at that. So I haven't experienced it, but there was a, I want to say he was like a laser crystallography expert or someone who explained it just purely through optics and like how that could be the case, even if you're not on drugs. So I think there might be a, a purely mechanical explanation for this, for people who don't know. I did watch this because it got sent to me, you would imagine, right? You can imagine all my friends were like, bro.

• 3:03:28Shawn Ryan?

  Same here.

• 3:03:30Speaker 02

  And so I got this video.

• 3:03:32Shawn Ryan?

  I was one of those.

• 3:03:33Speaker 02

  And so there's this guy who looks shockingly similar to Lionel Messi. I don't know if I'm the only person. I was just like, what? It's Lionel Messi in the psychedelic game now? Anyway.

• 3:03:45Speaker 02

  And he would, would use DMT, probably still, and then shh, direct this laser at a wall and get in a certain position and basically had this. And he had people who could replicate this, right? They would see the same thing or claim to see the same thing, which looked like some type of matrix-like code. And he had drawn them out and everything. There was, I went down the rabbit hole in this because I was getting asked about it so much. And I found a very long, what appeared to be defensible engineering explanation for how that's, how that's, how that is a, a explainable phenomenon without needing access to matrix code.

• 3:04:30Speaker 02

  So who knows, maybe. But I would say.

• 3:04:36Speaker 02

  Even without that, like, it's just...

• 3:04:41Speaker 02

  Stuff is weird. Stuff is really weird. And, I mean, you don't have to go very far. I'm trying to remember his name. Fabrizio Benedetti, maybe?

• 3:04:52Speaker 02

  I think that Ashley... No, it's not Ashley Vance, there's another author. But read any book written by a credible scientist or science journalist about the placebo effect.

• 3:05:03Speaker 02

  Alright. And...

• 3:05:07Speaker 02

  If that is not one of the weirdest collections of verifiable data you've ever seen... I mean, you look at any given study with an intervention, like a drug or whatever. You look at the supplemental materials, like there's there's almost always gonna be someone in the control arm of the placebo who showed just as much effect. Man, that's... With nothing. With nothing. Whether it's a surgery, whether it's a powerful drug, psychedelic even. And so there are a few questions that come to mind, right? Saying, "Well,

• 3:05:42Speaker 02

  these are just normal people, they're not biochemists. They couldn't tell you how psychedelics act on the brain." So it's not like they're rolling their eyes back and going in and trying to

• 3:05:58Speaker 02

  affect certain enzymes or whatever. They have no idea. And yet, they are reporting the same, not just effect, but magnitude of effect as matches the other people. What the hell's going on? I don't know. I have no idea. Wow. But, like, you don't have to go very far to get into really terra incognita, like, unknown, there be dragons waters. It's actually very easy. You don't have to get out into remote viewing or whatever, even though, again, I'm very, like, interested in that stuff. But it's like, just look at the placebo effect, which gets, understandably, right? Because people are trying to assess something. And that is the intervention

• 3:06:43Speaker 02

  in some of the RCTs that I fund, let's just say. But the fact that there are... Commonly, people who produce the same effect, same magnitude of effect with a sugar pill, or placebo, or a sham surgery is incredibly strange.

• 3:07:04Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:07:05Speaker 02

  Is super, super strange. So I will say, not to be the broken record citing Richard Feynman and the "It's easy to fool yourself," but it is easy to fool yourself. So it is a challenge to be, to attempt to be radically open-minded while also being suitably skeptical. Right? Because there are a lot of coners out there. There are a lot of delusional people out there.

• 3:07:35Speaker 02

  There's a lot of bad science out there. There's a lot of pseudoscience. God save you if you're getting all your health advice from Instagram.

• 3:07:44Speaker 02

  And so it's a challenge to navigate. I do, there's, there's something from Peter T., actually. He did a series of blog posts called "Studying the Studies." And I also put out a blog post related to Peter about scientific literacy. And I would say one of the best investments you can make for your life and for the people you love or care about is to just invest like a week. And now you can use AI to make this easy. There's a company I actually invested in called OBOE, O-B-O-E dot com. They'll create a course for you. And it's just like, "Teach me how to read science." And like, spend a week, hour or two a night doing that, and that will pay dividends for decades.

• 3:08:25Speaker 02

  It will help you sift the signal from the noise.

• 3:08:32Speaker 02

  Anyway, but yeah, the weird stuff is interesting.

• 3:08:36Speaker 02

  It's probably the understatement of the year.

• 3:08:38Shawn Ryan?

  You had brought up, you were going with the power of no.

• 3:08:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the power of no.

• 3:08:46Shawn Ryan?

  What did you discover there?

• 3:08:47Speaker 02

  I mean, I feel like, so I started.

• 3:08:51Speaker 02

  At the behest of my friends and some of my audience, I started working on a book about saying no. That's like six years ago. And I started doing that because people just kept asking me for help. A lot of my friends, even very successful ones. And over, I'd say probably a decade, I was using Evernote, which I was the first advisor for. Didn't quite pan out as I had hoped, but still a pretty interesting tool. Anyway, every time I got a rejection from somebody that I thought was really artful, that left me feeling neutral or better about the person than worse, I'd be like, ooh, that's good. I'm gonna steal that. So I'd like copy and paste it.

• 3:09:36Speaker 02

  So I had this swipe file, which is just a term that some people use for like, I used to do it for advertising, like whenever I bought something, I would save the advertisement, put it into a three ring binder, so that I would think about how this convinced me to buy something. And then I used that for designing my own ads, right? So similar, I had a swipe file. I had hundreds of these examples of polite declines, I called them. And they're really useful, really incredibly useful. Copy and paste to make your own. So I was printing out this book and then it just became too hard. Cause I thought a lot of my friends were gonna help and they were like, me? I'm terrible at this. You need to write the whole book yourself. And I was like, oh, that's okay. So I stopped, I shelved it, I gave up. Returned the advance, biggest advance I ever got in my life. Returned it.

• 3:10:21Speaker 02

  It was like real money. Returned it, I was like, I'm sorry, I can't do it. And shelved it. And then over the last handful of years, as I've watched people to fray, watched people start to fray at the edges. Because back in the day, it was one inbox. Then it was two or three inboxes. Then it was like, oh man, alright, well, I'm just gonna tell the people I really care about to text me. Uh oh, alright. So then it's texts. And then it's text plus Google Voice. And then it's text plus Google Voice plus Signal plus Telegram. And you see where this is going, right? And then it's like social media DMs. And all of a sudden, you're fucked.

• 3:11:00Speaker 02

  And it's not just the interruption or the burden of those messages. It's the temptation to triage. Right. It's like you're spending all your time triaging injuries as opposed to actually getting up and marching where you're supposed to march. So I want to write a book about how to say no, because there are tons of books on how to say yes. And I just don't feel like writing another book about how to say yes is very helpful. Although, when you start to look at how to say no, it very quickly becomes an exploration of how to say yes to a few things and how to say no to everything else. And

• 3:11:46Speaker 02

  still working on the book. It's long AF. It's like 750 to eight hour pages now. But

• 3:11:56Speaker 02

  have, if, if, if people might want to check it out, I mean, they can get a bunch of free chapters. I don't know when the full thing is going to be published, but they can, if they go to tim.blog slash no book. N O B O. Okay. Tim.blog. It's not a typo. Slash no book. Bunch of free chapters people can get, which will help them. Cause I've had proofreaders read this thing. And I kind of put it on a shelf.

• 3:12:16Shawn Ryan?

  So it's done?

• 3:12:17Speaker 02

  It's close to done. But here's the thing. A book is like a marathon where it's like, you get to mile 20. You're like, congratulations. Or 20 mile, you know, 22. And you're like, wow, you're almost done. Congratulations. Only have 50% left. Like that last, getting back to like the high

• 3:12:36Speaker 02

  expectations.

• 3:12:37Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, okay.

• 3:12:38Speaker 02

  Right. Like that last polish. It's like, yeah, to make the sculpture out of clay as a rough model. Yes, I'll do that in the afternoon. Like create the finished piece in full scale to put in a museum. Like, yeah, okay. So it's gonna, it's gonna last. Then the polish, the book's gonna take at least two or three.

• 3:12:57Shawn Ryan?

  So what's gonna be in it other than nice ways to tell people to?

• 3:13:00Speaker 02

  Oh, there's a lot more to it. Cause that doesn't do the job. That doesn't do the job. Right. Because I could tell you, okay, and Martha Beck, who's like one of the amazing women, was like Oprah's life coach and all this stuff. Incredible lady in her own right, for a lot of different reasons. And, you know, she turned me down for something and she was like, sorry, I can't make it due to life tetris. I'm like, oh, that's very short. You don't, you're not giving them something that they can negotiate against. I'm like, great. I'm like life tetris. I'm definitely gonna use that. Simple, to the point. But when you give people templates, and I realize this with The Four Hour Body, because I was writing The Four Hour Body, everything in there works. It's been tested with hundreds of people, now thousands, tens of thousands of people.

• 3:13:42Speaker 02

  And I had very busy CEOs of companies I was working with who'd be like, hey, I don't have time to read a long book. Like, give me the index card, tell me what to do and I'll do it. And I did. Success rate, zero percent. Why? Because if you give people the prescription, but you don't help them change their behavior, which also goes down to changing their beliefs, it's just not going to stick. It won't be durable. So for instance, if you don't say no because the story is, I'm too nice for that. I'm a kind person. I'm generous. I like helping people. Okay? That can be true, but that can also be a justification for saying yes to way too many things and being a martyr. All right? If your answer is, well, must be nice for you. I'm not successful enough yet.

• 3:14:27Speaker 02

  Okay? We can start to tease that apart. But I know people who have hundreds of millions of dollars who still say that. So part of the reason this book has taken so long, and it comes down to, when we're talking about like the drive and predicting the bumps in the road and using the engine to the vet your capacity, just having an index card, which is kind of what the internet largely does. Not everyone, but they're like, here are the three tricks to mastering crypto tomorrow, before the crash, you know, whatever. And I mean, look, I'm interested in a lot of things. I'm not to malign crypto, like I've been interested in a long time. But the point is, if your goal is like durable behavioral change,

• 3:15:12Speaker 02

  which also comes back to the psychedelics, right? Like, you need frameworks and you need to be able to put your beliefs, which are like your underpinning philosophical guide rails, under some degree of scrutiny. And if you don't update those, right? Like, if your story, for instance, in the realm of physical fitness is, well, I'm good at my job, I'm a good father, but like, you know, my whole family has big bones and I'm just, it's just the way it is, right? You accept that partial completeness, right? And you're like really type A and like problem fixing oriented in a positive way in other areas of your life, but there's this one that you don't touch because that's just the way things are.

• 3:15:54Speaker 02

  If you don't fix that, no number of books on strength training, no number of gym memberships is gonna fix it. So a lot of it is unpacking. And this also, like, everything kind of ties together, right? The fear setting, right? It's like, okay, you don't wanna say no. Why? Okay, you're worried that person's gonna shit talk you to somebody you care about. Hmm, okay, you're worried they won't send you opportunities anymore, right? They sent you one, but it's really a bad fit. Doesn't align with your priorities. You're worried they're not gonna send you an opportunity in the future, okay? You're worried that you will become irrelevant, right? Like, that's another dangerous catchphrase, like staying relevant.

• 3:16:35Speaker 02

  That's a, that's a, that's a very pitfall laden path. Okay, so then it's like, so what? And then what? And what's the worst thing that happens, right? So it's kind of a unstructured approach to fear setting.

• 3:16:50Speaker 02

  But when you start to really unpack it, and instead of saying, alright, you're gonna go to the gym five days a week for the rest of your life, it's like, okay, you're gonna go twice a week, you're gonna do less than you think you can do, but for two weeks, you're gonna go on a no diet. And you're just gonna copy paste one of these three templates, and you have an assignment, which is like, you're gonna do it three times in the next week, or your buddy gives a hundred bucks to your most hated politician in your name. Okay, now we have a structure, alright? Yeah. Now we have a structure. And I ended up in the last, I guess, year or so collaborating with a friend of mine, Neil Strauss, who wrote The Game, Emergencies, written like ten New York Times bestsellers. Terrible at saying no, he was pressuring me to write this book.

• 3:17:35Speaker 02

  And I was like, we were both kind of drunk at the time. And I was like, Neil, he was at a, busting my balls at a table. I was single at the time, and he's kind of like embarrassing me in front of these women. And I'm just like, Neil, if you're such a hotshot, I see what you're doing. You're doing this lame power play in front of these girls trying to impress them. I was like... Which is not totally true, but I was just like, all right, you wanna spar, let's go. And I was like, if you wanna write this, if you wanna read this book so badly, why don't you help me finish it? Get off the bench. And he was like, hmm. And then the next day, when we both sobered up, he's like, hey, if you're serious, like, let's talk. And so he became kinda like the student. And I would have him test these things. And then like 50% of the time, he'd fuck it up, he'd fumble it, he'd create some mess.

• 3:18:17Speaker 02

  But what ended up hap- or he wouldn't do the homework. He would not do the homework. And I was like, oh, this book doesn't work. Okay, well, I need to make this book work. So how do I make it work for this guy? If I can make it work for this guy, it'll work for other people. And then started testing it with a private community of about 100 people also. And ultimately got it to the point where it's like, that guy is different now. Like after a year working together, like his life, how he interacts, he still sends me texts to this day. He's like, you would not believe what just happened. It is a different life. Like before you have the shield of no, and after you have the shield of no, wield it artfully, they are two different experiences of life. And this also, if you want more time dilation, right, if you want more experiential lifespan, you want more intimacy,

• 3:19:03Speaker 02

  you cannot do that if you have a porous mesh through which everyone else's agenda filters to you. That you feel morally obligated for reasons that are unclear to say yes. Do you say no more than you say yes? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I have to. I have to on a lot of levels. And if I, if I, if I, if I give you sort of a sterile example, it'd be like in the world of startup investing. If I don't say no to 80, 90% or more of what comes my way, I run out of money. Right? I have to play it like a smart blackjack player. It's like, okay, like, yeah, I can try to learn how to count cards, and I know I'm not supposed to do that, but sort of like Bringing Down the House or the movie 21. It's like, okay, like, you can try to like get it better at it, and then you need to know when you have a hot hand.

• 3:19:46Speaker 02

  You need to know when the deck is in the right place. You need to know your statistics. But you're not gonna bet on it. You're not gonna bet heavy on every hand. You'll run out of bankroll. So in the startup investing, it's just an existential imperative, right? You have to say no to the most things. So you have to have rules. And what are those rules grounded? And they're grounded in certain principles. And then what are those grounded? They're grounded in certain beliefs. And I'll give you an example of a belief. And the one belief would be, there are plenty of opportunities. You can wait for a fat pitch along the lines of Warren Buffett. But if you've been taught and conditioned yourself to have this fear of missing out,

• 3:20:25Speaker 02

  the game is lost. It's lost at the belief level. Before you ever get to the principles, before you get to the strategies, before you get to that, to the tactics. So a lot of it is solved with fear setting.

• 3:20:37Shawn Ryan?

  How do you pick your investments? I've been you early on, what, Facebook, Shopify, a whole bunch of companies?

• 3:20:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, Facebook, Twitter, Shopify, Duolingo, Clear, the biometric security company, and all the airports.

• 3:20:53Speaker 02

  Alibaba, I have a whole bunch.

• 3:20:54Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 3:20:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:20:57Speaker 02

  So how am I early?

• 3:21:01Shawn Ryan?

  Were you seeking them out or they see, they saw you?

• 3:21:03Speaker 02

  Both. So there are a few things that I think are

• 3:21:08Speaker 02

  maybe

• 3:21:10Speaker 02

  copy and pastable, and then some things that are probably not as copy and pastable.

• 3:21:16Speaker 02

  The things that I think are copy and pastable, and there's a book coming out soon by a legendary venture capitalist named Bill Gurley called Running Down a Dream, I believe is the title of the book, which really makes this point well. But going to the epicenter of the action matters. It really matters in real life. So me packing up after college with my piece of shit hand-me-down Plymouth Voyager minivan, so beaten up, like hundreds of thousands of miles. Like the backseats got stolen out of a parking lot when I first got to the Bay Area. I mean, you know, my, my, got ruthlessly made fun of by my coworkers, but it's like,

• 3:21:58Speaker 02

  I picked up and I was like, I am going west to Silicon Valley to make my riches. And that didn't happen quickly, but what it did do is it put me in the very center of the pinball machine where I could bump into things. And I could bump into things by volunteering. Like you don't have, you don't have any network? Get creative. What do you have? You have time. Okay. You've got endurance, right? You're young in that case, right? What are your advantages? You always have advantages. All right, well, like. Design something around your advantages. So in my case, I volunteered for a number of startup nonprofits like the Silicon Valley

• 3:22:40Speaker 02

  Association of Startup Entrepreneurs, the Indus Entrepreneur, which Sriram would know, past guest, really nice, brilliant guy. The Indus Entrepreneur almost wholly focused on the Indian diaspora and entrepreneurship around that, right? And like the numbers of amazing entrepreneurs who've come out of India, who have chosen to come to the US, just unbelievable, right? I'm not Indian, as you might have guessed, but I would go there and be like, hey, I'll do anything. I'll fill water, I'll punch tickets, I'll rearrange chairs. I just want to be in the room with these speakers, right?

• 3:23:21Speaker 02

  And as a volunteer, if you do more than someone asks you to do, you're going to get noticed by the people running the event. You don't have to do very much, but I would just do a lot more than they asked me to do. And eventually, they're like, hey, do you want to help organize one of these events? Like, we're not getting paid, we have a day job. Like, do you want to help organize? I'm like, can I? I would love to, but really what I like to do is at least organize the speakers. They're like, sure. So now I get to reach out to people way above my pay grade, who ended up, in some cases, being long-term relationships. I mean, Jack Canfield, the co-creator of Chicken Soup for the Soul, who I met through a nonprofit by volunteering and doing a little bit extra.

• 3:24:01Speaker 02

  He later, years later, introduced me to my book agent, who after whatever, 30-plus projections, sold The Four Hour Work Week. And I just had Jack Canfield on my podcast, like, a few weeks ago. Whatever it is, like, 24 years later, right? All from volunteering and doing a little bit more than anybody asked. So the network matters. Exceed the expectations. Yeah, exceed the expectations and be in the center of the action. So it's like, if you're really serious. There are other people who have said this. Scott Galloway, I think, puts it really well. It's like it's better to be average at something in the center, like fashion in New York, comedy in LA or New York,

• 3:24:46Speaker 02

  whatever, we can give a lot of examples, than to be great in a tiny town in the middle of nowhere. And so putting myself in the middle is important. And I could give very concrete examples of that. That's something people can model. Not everyone, but some people can. You can also do it in virtual space in places like subreddits and so on. But so that's one. The second is, and this is harder to model, of course, but the four hour work week, when it had its explosion in 2007, I very deliberately targeted very tech savvy, initially males, say, between the age of like 25 and 35 in Silicon Valley and then New York.

• 3:25:31Speaker 02

  And then that bled out to both genders. No problem, that was an easy hop. And then it began hopping to other cities like LA and Chicago. But I wanted to focus on people who could broadcast the message most effectively. And that's relevant because the success of the book, especially targeted at startups, is what led to, for instance, being in the switch box in Silicon Valley. I started going to events like RailsConf, related to Ruby on Rails. I'm not a programmer. But there, who did I meet? I met Toby of Shopify when they had like eight to 10 employees. And he had read the book. And that was a context for a conversation.

• 3:26:12Speaker 02

  And then ended up becoming their first, I believe, advisor. And so that's an example. I do think that you can engineer that type of thing just by cultivating a network, which, by the way, just like my friendships, is like a few people, very deep, not a scattershot collection of business cards. I don't think that works very well at all. And it comes off as what it is, which is transactional and superficial. Because here's the secret. The secret is if you are, if you develop true friendship.

• 3:26:51Speaker 02

  With someone you love like a brother or sister or could, who could become one of your true long-term friends and they happen to be an A player at something. A players in one domain tend to know A players in a lot of domains. You don't need to know everybody. Right? You really don't.

• 3:27:10Speaker 02

  Okay, so there's that. I'm trying to answer this question in the least long-winded way I can, but it's nuanced. So in terms of selection, so then I start seeing startups, but I don't have very much money at the time. Got a little bit. And I had fantasized about going to Stanford Business School for a lot of reasons. I was like, I would have been so much happier at Stanford than Princeton, which I think is probably true. And it's gorgeous. It's got like Palm Drive. It's an amazing campus and it's completely integrated with venture capital and startups. Right? They have real operators to teach at that school. So I went through the application process twice and then for one reason or another, I was like, ah, I just can't do it. I just don't want to be back in school.

• 3:27:51Speaker 02

  And then I was helping a friend of mine, Mike Maples Jr., who was a super angel. He was a very good angel investor. I had met him through one of my professors at school just by asking. A lot of people don't get what they want because they don't ask for it. And he wanted to lose some weight. So I was, this is well before the four hour body. So I was helping him get in shape. And I was like, hey, do you mind if we just like after the workouts or whatever? Like, we can trade information on that. He also wanted to know about PR and launch for the four hour work week. So I would, I would share all that and I'd say, can you just explain the deals you're doing? Like, how are you choosing them? Why yes? Why no? And eventually at one point I was like, hey, I'm willing to put skin in the game and I can be really cheap labor.

• 3:28:36Speaker 02

  Like, is there any chance I could invest small amounts along with you into some of these startups? And help them with go-to-market strategy, whatever. And he's like, well, I can ask. And what I decided to do was rather than go to graduate school, I would take the cost that I would have paid out of pocket, sunk cost. So I think Stanford Business School is like 60K for two years. 60K, 60K, 120. And I was like, all right, I'm going to make the Tim Ferriss fund. I put it in air quotes because it's not a real fund, but I'm going to spend, I'm going to plan on spending 120K over two years in small checks.

• 3:29:10Speaker 02

  I assume the money is all going to zero. But what I'm optimizing for is skills and relationships. Just like this in school. And that's how it started. Then there's a question of what do you say yes to? What do you say no to? I only said yes to things where

• 3:29:28Speaker 02

  the ones that worked out. I made a lot of mistakes, but the ones that worked out, which then became rules for me were can I be a power user of this product myself? Does it solve a problem or help me achieve a goal personally? Even if I weren't involved, would I use this? And by extension, then that means through the books, I built the blog back when blogs were huge. Some blogs are still huge, but like my blog is one of the most popular in the world. I was like, okay. Can I help them through the blog? Now that would be podcast, social media, but can I actually help them directly to increase the value of the company? And therefore the value of my equity? Okay.

• 3:30:07Speaker 02

  And ideally, ideally, this doesn't always work, but is it a premium product? So that there is more room for error, more margin of safety. I do not want to be in a race to the bottom

• 3:30:20Speaker 02

  situation where the company is suddenly commoditized and they're competing on price and just get pressed down.

• 3:30:28Speaker 02

  And that's about it. And then the price has to be right also.

• 3:30:33Speaker 02

  And just to address this also. Two thousand eight, when I really started, that was a great time. That was a great time to be investing. That was a great time to be investing. And it was not a crowded playing field because it was in the middle of what people might consider a dot com depression. So the fair weather entrepreneurs, the fair weather venture capitalists and angels, they had all run for the hills. They were like, screw this, I'm going back to investment banking or consulting or whatever. Right, this is, this is, this is too risky, right? IPO market's dead like, uh, but.

• 3:31:12Speaker 02

  It's harder now. It is harder now, especially right now with the froth around AI, which has contagion into other things, making them even great companies, if they're too expensive, it's a bad investment. Depending, the specifics matter. But I do think people can use a lot of what I'm talking about, investing in what you know, something you would use. Like, it applies to, I hesitate to say people should do any stock picking, because that's a dangerous game, I think, most people, including myself. I do a lot of passive, low-cost index investing. I think that's the right move for a lot of people. But if you just look at how you spend money, what you're spending more money on now than three years ago, where you're trying to cobble

• 3:31:57Speaker 02

  together solutions for something that doesn't exist, like, just looking at your own personal behavior can inform how you think about investing. And I'm not a registered investment advisor or anything, I'm not giving investment advice, but it's like, if you stray outside of what you know, you will probably get your face ripped off. Yeah.

• 3:32:17Shawn Ryan?

  Good advice.

• 3:32:17Speaker 02

  Rule number one, don't lose your money. Don't run out of bankroll.

• 3:32:23Shawn Ryan?

  Damn good point. Damn good point. Well, Tim, it's a fascinating interview. I got one question left.

• 3:32:32Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 3:32:33Shawn Ryan?

  If you have three people you'd like to see on the show, who would they be?

• 3:32:36Speaker 02

  On your show or my show?

• 3:32:38Shawn Ryan?

  On my show.

• 3:32:40Speaker 02

  Three people? Who would I like to see? Hmm. I should start asking that question. I'm tucking that away in my swipe file.

• 3:32:52Speaker 02

  I would say

• 3:32:56Speaker 02

  someone who is genuinely part of some mystic tradition,

• 3:33:05Speaker 02

  who has never been on a podcast.

• 3:33:08Speaker 02

  But who is a good communicator? And, you know, we talked very early on about scripture and you're like, scripture. If you look at the Christian mystics, you look at, say, Sufism within Islam, you look at, you know, Kabbalah and so on within Judaism, it's like, when you start to read even the poetry produced by all three, they seem very, very similar. And having someone on who could speak intelligently, and they need to be good with words to do this, but to describe their firsthand experience of the divine, I think would be a service

• 3:33:53Speaker 02

  to listeners. So that would be one. Love that idea. Yeah. I'd say, second, I'm trying to really go off-menu here. So you've covered a lot of ground I enjoy already with a lot of your interviews. I would say probably dealer's choice, meaning you're the dealer, but old traditions, like really old traditions, who have not been exposed or picked over by a lot of other podcasts. And that could be just about anything, because my approach to, you know, whether it's investing, explorations, kind of a barbell approach, like Nassim Taleb's investing, right?

• 3:34:38Speaker 02

  Like, super, super safe or super, super speculative is how I do things. I'm not saying everybody should do that. But also, with respect to my own intellectual exploration and scientific exploration, I'm like, I'm typically cutting-edge, or I'm looking at things that have been around for hundreds or thousands of years, that are durable. And I think exploring the really old stuff is interesting. So the mystics are kind of one example of that, right? This has just been a consistent feature of humanity for millennia. Might be something there. I don't know. I think there is. So I would say, this is, this is getting very close to the same territory, but you could interview...

• 3:35:28Speaker 02

  And you have to pick them very carefully, but give you an example, like a Greek Orthodox church singer who knows a lot about droning and or a musicologist who can speak to, I could recommend one, he's a wild card. I'll say it off, off camera, just so you can do your due diligence, but someone who, for instance, has knowledge of historic use cross culturally of harmonics or overtones for religious experience and altered states. That would be interesting.

• 3:36:08Speaker 02

  Who could, who could speak not just to the, the cultural context, but also to like what we actually know from a musicology perspective, from potentially a neuroscientific perspective. Very interesting. There's some, like you do not need drugs to have some shockingly alarming altered states of consciousness. Music has been one major tool in the toolkit for a long time. So that could be interesting. And then number three, who's lucky number three, I would say a physicist focused on time, not just a science communicator. There are physicists

• 3:36:51Speaker 02

  who have certain credentials who are primarily science communicators, but like a working physicist, somebody who's still an operator. Okay. Who's kind of at the forefront of work that involves consideration of time fundamentally, I think would be squirrely enough to be fun for you and mind bending for listeners because it's weird. It's very strange. Fascinating topics. Yeah, I think all three. And because at the, at the, at the very end of the day, it's like, what can we be certain of? Right? Like, how do we know we're not a brain in a jar in a simulation? What can we actually know is true? And I think one of the few

• 3:37:35Speaker 02

  things we can know is true is that we're aware of the fact that we are aware. And therefore.

• 3:37:44Speaker 02

  Maybe it makes sense to really put that under a microscope, try to understand it, which mindfulness and meditation practice is done for millennia as well. So that would be if I had to pick a fourth, just to round out the dinner table. Someone who has a lot of experience. I've known one guy in particular, Henry Schukman, who I've ended up doing some collaborations with because he just blew me away, but who's specifically a Zen practitioner, which is like layering weird on top of weird, but in ways that are oddly productive, like koans and so on. What a strange thing.

• 3:38:27Speaker 02

  So I'll leave it at that, but those would be, those would be four I'd put around the table.

• 3:38:34Shawn Ryan?

  Thank you. Thank you. You have a fascinating way of thinking about things. I've really enjoyed this, so thank you for coming.

• 3:38:41Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me, man. I really, really had a great time. Thanks for the gifts also.

• 3:38:44Shawn Ryan?

  My pleasure. Let's go break that thing in.

• 3:38:47Speaker 02

  Let's do it.

• 3:39:01Shawn Ryan?

  No matter where you're watching The Sean Ryan Show from, if you get anything out of this at all, anything, please like, comment, and subscribe. And most importantly, share this everywhere you possibly can. And if you're feeling extra generous, head to Apple Podcasts and Spotify and leave us a review.