Episode 1286: Why the Post-Click Experience Drives Conversions with Shamir Duverseau

What if the reason your marketing isn’t working has nothing to do with your ads? In this episode of Sharkpreneur, Seth Greene interviews Shamir Duverseau, Co-Founder and Managing Director at Smart Panda Labs, who explains why the post-click experience is the most overlooked yet critical part of the marketing funnel, especially for high-consideration purchases. He shares how aligning teams, applying behavioral psychology, and improving digital experiences after the click can dramatically increase conversions and overall performance. Key Takeaways: → Most marketing budgets are spent before the click. → Trust must be established immediately after the click. → Relevance is the first requirement for engagement. → Enterprise marketing challenges are often people problems. → Managing stakeholders is as important as managing strategy. Shamir Duverseau is a cofounder and Managing Director at Smart Panda Labs, a technical marketing agency for enterprise BwC brands. Throughout his career, he has worked across industries, including travel, entertainment, and technology, with brands such as Southwest Airlines, The Walt Disney Company, and NBCUniversal. Over the past 25+ years in marketing, Shamir has held leadership roles overseeing product management, digital strategy, user experience design, web development, testing, and web analytics. Before joining Smart Panda Labs, Shamir was the Senior Director of Digital Strategy and Services for Marriott International’s Vacation Club Division. Connect With Shamir: Website: https://smartpandalabs.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/smartpandalabs LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/smart-panda-labs/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@smartpandalabs7668

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Welcome to the Sharkpreneur Podcast with Kevin Harrington and Seth Green. Kevin Harrington is the inventor of the infomercial, one of the original sharks from the hit TV show Shark Tank, and has generated over $5 billion in TV and digital direct response sales. Seth Green is the world's first trusted authority on cutting-edge direct response marketing, a bestselling author, and the only three-time marketer of the year nominee. On the podcast, Kevin and Seth interview sharkpreneurs who share straight talk on what it takes to explode your business.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  Forty-nine faces looked to him in triumph. Over the last 12 months, they had each taken turns and promoted his business for a week at a time, driving over $987,342 in revenue. What if you had a network of 50 centers of influence who promoted your business every week for a year? Grab your copy of the number one Amazon bestselling book, The Ultimate Guide to Growing Your Business with a Podcast at 33% off the Amazon price by going to ultimatenpodcastbook.com. Again, that website for 33% off the Amazon price is ultimatenpodcastbook.com. Welcome to the Sharkpreneur Podcast. This is your host Seth Green. Today, I've got the good fortune to be with Shamir Duverseau, co-founder and managing director of Smart Panda Labs. Shamir, thank you so much for joining us.

• 1:22Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me, Seth. I'm super excited to be on the show.

• 1:25Speaker 01

  Our pleasure. Let's go back in time a little bit. How did you get started in the business?

• 1:30Speaker 02

  You know, I spent a lot of time in the enterprise world, much like yourself. Worked for a number of different brands, from Disney to NBC Universal to Marriott. During my time at Marriott and at some of the other brands, the Internet was really in its infancy, and brands and organizations were really seeing the need to really focus much, much more on the Internet experience, but at the time we called interactive marketing. I spent a lot of time really kind of bridging that gap between the technical aspects of the Internet and just the typical world of marketing. And at the time, that was just this huge, huge canyon that existed because those two worlds really weren't used to it. Working together at all, but the internet kind of forced them together.

• 2:13Speaker 02

  So I really saw a problem and an opportunity to say, hey, this is something I can solve. Like trying to get these two groups to talk to each other, to collaborate in order to move that digital experience forward was something I ended up spending a lot of time on. And I felt like I could do that for other companies as well. So between that and me wanting to take some control over my own time, I decided to to kind of jump and and say, hey, let's start smart painted labs and let's start helping people solve these problems.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Awesome. I'm sure the longer version of that could probably be in a book somewhere if it isn't already.

• 2:43Speaker 02

  Yes, it probably should be.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  So working with brands like Disney, NBC, Marriott, like what do those enterprise environments teach you that shapes how you advise clients today?

• 2:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, it teaches me is the it comes down to managing tech, managing experience is really about managing people. Like that's that's what it taught me, right? It's about getting those different people, those different groups with different objectives, with different goals, with different drivers and measurements all aligned around the customer. And what experience they ultimately want to bring to customer that's going to have that positive impact on the company. Well, at the same time, kind of flipping it around and saying, these are people who have lives, they have concerns, they have jobs. They're trying to meet their goals. They're trying to get their promotions. They're trying to get their bonuses as well. And if you don't kind of keep that in your mind and you don't operate on that premise to make sure that

• 3:36Speaker 02

  I want everyone in this room to be happy so that we can all accomplish what all our bosses want us to accomplish and hit those goals that we can all end up, you know, hitting the markers that we need to hit. If you lose sight of that and you get a bit too myopic, you get a little bit too focused on yourself and just what you want to do, you're not going to get very much accomplished. You're not going to be very, you're not going to be very popular. And you're making it many times harder for you to to do the things you need to do to to get that promotion, to get that next role, to get the next job. So it really came down to saying, hey, before you manage the tech, you really have to manage the people first and understand that aspect of it.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  That makes a lot of sense. You talk a lot about the post click experience. What are you defining that as and why do you say it's often overlooked?

• 4:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, so when we talk about the post-click experience, we're talking about what happens after someone clicks on the ad. So a lot of time and a lot of money, arguably stats show the majority of money that's spent on advertising, on marketing, is spent on advertising, right? It's spent on getting that message out there and no one's minimizing the importance of advertising. But we don't spend as much time and energy and effort on what happens after someone clicks on the ad. And that's probably for a number of reasons, probably most notably is because that's where it gets the most complicated. That's where you have to deal with all those other teams that we kind of talked about. That's where you need to collaborate with legal, you have to collaborate with brand, with UX design, with IT, to get that all together

• 5:02Speaker 02

  to be able to deliver that experience. But advertising is sexier, relatively speaking, advertising is easier. So people focus a lot of time and energy and effort on advertising. But if you think about it, you spend mere moments interacting with an ad. The majority of your time is spent interacting with a brand after you click on the ad, trying to make that decision, trying to find the right information so that you can say, yes, I want to fill out this application. Yes, I want to make this purchase. Yes, I want to, you know, become a lead and have someone contact me. All that information and decision that you need in order to move through that process happens after that click. And understanding that really said made me want to focus on that post-click experience because that to me is where the meat is.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  When, let's talk about, let's dive in. So the prospect, the customer, whomever clicks that ad, they land on a page. You've run millions and millions of tests. What needs to happen emotionally and practically in like those first few seconds? How do we get, capture that attention that we got? And what do we do with it?

• 6:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, the most important aspect of that is going to be relevance. How quickly can you show that this is relevant to me? How quickly can you show that this is something I can trust? And how quickly can you orient me to what I should be looking at and what I need to do next? Those are probably, if you're going to take anything away, those are the three first initial big things you need to do in that order. That's kind of the conversion hierarchy, right? So when you think about how the Human brain works when you think about just behavioral science and psychology. The research tells us that trying to get over those barriers of relevance, of trust, of orientation are the first three big things that your brain implicitly tries to do when you come into a new experience. And that includes going to a website or walking in a store, right? That's the first thing you do is, is this where I mean to be?

• 6:51Speaker 02

  You know, is this a place I want to shop from? Where am I? What did the aisles say? Where do I need to go to to get my eggs or to find a new pair of sneakers? Or, you know, whatever it is that you're looking for, right? So doing that on the web is exactly the same thing. It's translating that to help people understand and orient themselves. And that's a big miss. It's something that should be relatively straightforward and easy to do, but we take a lot of that for granted. You'll you'll get an ad that talks about a particular promotion, maybe a particular offer or particular product. And then a lot of times you'll just get dumped on the homepage and like, you know, figure it out. You go find it yourself, right? So immediately you're telling the person, this isn't relevant to me. I came here because you told me I'm getting 10% off a pair of sneakers. And I come here and I duck to the pair of sneakers you showed me and I don't see anything about 10% off.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  So this is this is irrelevant to me. I'm leaving, I'm bouncing from the experience, right? So those three things are super critical to driving that post experience through.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  Who is an ideal client for Smart Panda?

• 7:48Speaker 02

  So any enterprise organization has ultimately this problem. What we do find a lot, though, and where we've spent a lot of time focusing is on some of those legacy enterprise organizations, the ones that have really been around a long time. And especially ones that have higher consideration products and services. Ones that are focused on healthcare, travel, real estate, education, places where the the risk financially and or emotionally is just higher. Because again, there's more fear, there's more uncertainty, there's more doubt, there's more time that you need to make those kind of decisions and get through that process. Trying to figure out what doctor to go see or what doctor you're going to use to deliver your baby is a markedly different experience than going on Amazon and buying a T-shirt or a hat, right?

• 8:34Speaker 02

  So when you get those high consideration decisions, that's where that post experience really carries a lot of weight and that's where we love focusing and really digging into.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  That makes a lot of sense. Now, if we're talking enterprise level, they have giant marketing departments and probably agents outside agencies as well. How do they know they need you?

• 8:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it goes back to that whole idea around collaboration, right? So the fact that we're a technical marketing agency, we're not the only one out there. We're not the only ones who are focused on aspects of that post-click experience, though we definitely tend to look at it a bit more holistically than perhaps other agencies do. But the real difference is, most agencies are focused on the creative, they're focused on the advertising aspects, or they're focused purely on the technical. They're not focused necessarily on bridging the gap between those two and bringing that that level of alignment. And we've developed a framework, a structure, a methodology that we use to do just that, to make sure that we're keeping people at the center, both the customer at the center via our framework and methodology, but also keeping that stakeholder at the center and making sure we're orchestrating what's happening internally and keeping them at the center.

• 9:37Speaker 02

  And by kind of managing both sides, helping marketers recognize they have two customers, they have the customer that they're actually marketing to externally, but also the customer internally, all the groups they need to work with to get their jobs accomplished. By helping them recognize that and manage that using our methodology, that's really what sets us apart.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  You've helped so many companies grow. What's the biggest challenge you're facing now?

• 10:01Speaker 02

  As an organization, I think it's frankly, it's figuring out how to best help ourselves and help other organizations leverage AI. Sometimes I hate talking about AI because that's, I feel like all everyone is ever talking about nowadays. But nonetheless, it's the elephant in the room, and I mean, we all have to deal with it. And I think one of the challenges with AI, even more so than the advent of the internet itself, is that AI is changing so fast. The capabilities are changing so fast, faster than we have frameworks and processes and governance to keep up with it. That is the thing that kind of keeps me up at night, right? How do we use it? How do we put boundaries around it?

• 10:45Speaker 02

  How do we govern it and make sure that we're keeping it under control? How are we helping our clients use it? How are we helping them put governance and boundaries around it? And keep it under control, measuring what it is and isn't doing. Is it actually improving the experience? Are we just handing the keys to the kingdom over and letting it just roll and do what it does, which we've already seen has been dangerous for a number of organizations? So I think really trying to get our hands around it and trying to kind of catch up and keep pace with the level of technology with what we as humans are doing to govern it, that's the real danger. It makes me think about like, you know, these e-bikes. Like, we have kids all over the neighborhood driving these e-bikes and it's great and they're cool and they're fun technology, but there's like no laws governing it. So they're on e-bikes and they're on the sidewalk and they're on the street and they don't have helmets and they're

• 11:29Speaker 02

  moving just as fast as a car does, but they're not considered a motorized vehicle. It's just like the technology has jumped ahead of our ability to govern technology and it's caused all kinds of dangers. And that's the same thing I see happening with AI. The technology has moved so far, so fast, it's got ahead of our ability to be able to kind of put our arms around it and say, how are we driving and controlling this? And that keeps me up at night.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Your passion is obvious. What do you like best about what you're doing?

• 11:55Speaker 02

  Frankly, I love the people. I love being able to deal with the people because in the end, it's nice to be able to go into an organization and say, hey, we help them increase their revenue by X or increase their conversion rate by Y. And those things are awesome or fun, but with the people to say, hey, look, you used to have to work till eight, but because you're working with us, you get to get home at five. You know, because you're working with us, you know, we got this big win and you got that promotion you were looking for, or you moved on to that new role that you were looking to get, or you got that bonus. Like being able to actually help the people on an individual level, giving them a better aspect, a better story that they can go and tell because we were able to help them. That, to me, is the most important thing. That's what I enjoyed about working in the corporate world and that's what I enjoy now.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Awesome. Well, we greatly appreciate your time. We know it's incredibly valuable. For our folks watching and listening and want to learn more, where is the best place for us to send them?

• 12:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, please go to LinkedIn or Instagram and follow me, Shamir Duverseau. I guarantee I am the only Shamir Duverseau you will find on either Instagram or on LinkedIn. So please follow me there or feel free, of course, to learn more about us at smartpandalabs.com.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  Awesome. This has been Seth Green. With Shamir from Smart Panda Labs. Shamir, thanks again for joining us.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  Thank you so much, Seth.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Thanks, everybody, for watching or listening. We will talk to you or see you next time.

• 13:13Speaker 03

  Why do so many businesses struggle while others seem to explode overnight? Do you wish you had the secret to this type of exponential growth? Now, I've scaled more than 20 businesses to over $100 million, and it's not just luck. In my new book with Mark Tim, Mentor to Millions, you'll learn the repeatable framework I use in all my business ventures for massive success. Order at KevinMentor.com and get over $1,000 in bonuses. Head to KevinMentor.com.