Episode 1326: The New Rules of Legal Marketing with Nick Cohen

Law firms can spend heavily on marketing and still not know what is actually generating new cases. In this episode of Sharkpreneur, Seth Greene interviews Nick Cohen, Esq., COO at Matador Solutions, who explains why law firms should focus less on vanity metrics and more on lead tracking, cases generated, and measurable return on investment. He explains how Google reviews, referrals, high-intent search, and emerging AI platforms such as ChatGPT are reshaping how potential clients find and choose attorneys. Nick also discusses the shift from traditional SEO rankings toward AI citations and mentions, and outlines the three areas he believes smaller law firms should prioritize over the next year. Key Takeaways: → Law schools generally do not teach attorneys how to market, manage, or grow a law firm, leaving many lawyers with a major business knowledge gap. → Traffic and impressions can become vanity metrics if they do not translate into qualified leads and new cases. → High-intent searches are more valuable than broad traffic because they come from people actively seeking legal help. → AI search is beginning to influence how consumers find attorneys, with some users moving directly to tools like ChatGPT rather than starting with Google. → Referrals remain highly valuable because they typically convert at a higher rate than cold internet leads do. Nick Cohen, Esq., is Matador’s Chief Operating Officer and a licensed California attorney. He began in legal marketing at 12, learning to code and generate business online. After earning his business degree from USC’s Marshall School, he managed more than $10M in digital ad spend at a Los Angeles e-commerce company. He then attended Loyola Law School on a merit scholarship in the evenings while working at Matador during the day. He now brings both legal expertise and performance marketing experience to Matador’s 160+ law firm partners. Connect With Nick: Website: https://www.matadorsolutions.net/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/matadorsolutionsllc/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/matador.solutions/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/matador-solutions-llc/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickecohen/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@matadorsolutions809

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Welcome to the Sharkpreneur Podcast with Kevin Harrington and Seth Green. Kevin Harrington is the inventor of the infomercial, one of the original sharks from the hit TV show Shark Tank, and has generated over $5 billion in TV and digital direct response sales. Seth Green is the world's first trusted authority on cutting-edge direct response marketing, a bestselling author, and the only three-time marketer of the year nominee. On the podcast, Kevin and Seth interview sharkpreneurs who share straight talk on what it takes to explode your business.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  Forty-nine faces looked to him in triumph. Over the last 12 months, they had each taken turns and promoted his business for a week at a time, driving over $987,342 in revenue. What if you had a network of 50 centers of influence who promoted your business every week for a year? Grab your copy of the number one Amazon bestselling book, The Ultimate Guide to Growing Your Business with a Podcast. It's 33% off the Amazon price by going to ultimatenpodcastbook.com. Again, that website for 33% off the Amazon price is ultimatenpodcastbook.com. Welcome to the podcast. This is your host Seth Green. Today, I've got the good fortune to be with Nick Cohen from Matador Solutions. Nick, thanks so much for joining us.

• 1:20Speaker 02

  Happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  All right, so you are both COO of Matador Solutions, working with over 150 law firms, and an attorney, correct?

• 1:31Speaker 02

  Correct, yeah.

• 1:32Speaker 01

  Okay, so let's go back in time a little bit. First of all, what inspired you to go to law school in the first place?

• 1:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I am from a family of attorneys. Both my parents are attorneys, my uncle is an attorney. I have three cousins currently in law school. My brother's a lawyer, and I have a cousin who is a, um, uh, who's a lawyer as well. And I grew up saying, well, I'm never going to be a lawyer. This ain't for me. And then I went sort of all in on marketing for lawyers with Matador. And I realized that while I'd shunned the family work for a long time, I actually really enjoyed the law and understanding the business of law and the practice of law together. And so I made the decision, I'm 29 now, I was 24 when I started.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  I made the decision to go to law school at night for four years, in a very tough four years, while running and growing Matador during the day.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  Wow, um, so that is absolutely incredible. Congrats on the journey. Now, you understand law firms from both sides.

• 2:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Both as a lawyer and as someone responsible for generating new cases. So what do lawyers fundamentally misunderstand about marketing?

• 2:50Speaker 02

  Everything. Um, but here's, here's why. Because if you take the mindset of somebody that is a lawyer, it's extremely unlikely that they have a business mindset. Those two things are not oftentimes compatible. One, two, they don't teach you anything in law school about how to run, market, or operate a law firm. And so lawyers step out into this world and they realize, oh crap, I am at a complete loss here. And it's not their fault, it's part of their DNA and personality. And the other part is they don't teach it to you. And so there's such a big lift in what lawyers have to get comfortable with when marketing their firm. And I'll give you an example.

• 3:32Speaker 02

  So to me and you, we know you got to ask for reviews to have a successful business. It is such a lift for a lawyer to ask a client or somebody that has an engagement with their firm in any capacity for a Google review. And people think, oh, I'm just going to get referrals or the phone's just going to ring like. No, you have to get involved. And I think the concept of the Google review is like the easiest one to understand because your average business person knows I got to do everything to get these reviews. And to the lawyers, it's so antithetical to who they are oftentimes.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  That makes a lot of sense. When a law firm tells you, hey, our marketing isn't working, what's the first thing you look at?

• 4:15Speaker 02

  How are we tracking it? So I don't work with law firms unless they track their leads, right? And that's not to say if you come to me and you don't currently track your leads, I won't work with you. But once I start working with you, we have to track all of your leads. Otherwise, I don't know how I'm doing, right? I have no idea what my ROI is. And if I'm not producing ROI, well, then there's no reason for you to pay me, right? To do your marketing. And if you don't know if it's producing ROI, then there's no reason for you to do marketing. And so the number one thing I have people start with is we say, all right, what is my baseline? Where are my leads, right? And it's very simple. We do call tracking, right? We put a call tracking number on the website. We integrate all the forms into a singular dashboard.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  And oftentimes with SEO, you're not feeling those results overnight anyway. So you can sort of get the baseline.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  That makes a lot of sense. You emphasize new cases.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  What marketing metrics do lawyers pay too much attention to that they shouldn't be?

• 5:17Speaker 02

  So I think I've seen a shift. About a decade ago, people were much more focused on impressions and traffic and what I call vanity metrics. And I think the industry, especially for your average, small to midsize, like one to 10 attorney firm, the industry has shifted much more to a performance basis, which is great for me. Because I love to sit in that zone of like, what am I actually producing for you every month? Now, if we end up in a situation where somebody is focused on like traffic and impressions, we kind of got to recalibrate a little bit. And here's an example I use, it's getting a little stale. So maybe this is my note to stop using it.

• 5:59Speaker 02

  But if we write an article about when Will Smith slapped Chris Rock at the Oscars like five years ago, or whenever that was, and that gets a ton of traffic. And we talk about the potential criminal penalties, potential civil claims that arise from it. That could get 10,000 visitors. Not one of them will become your client, right? And so I am much more focused on high-intent searches.

• 6:22Speaker 02

  And now, you know, AI prompts and all that. But I think I've seen a shift in the industry from traffic and impressions to leads and cases, which I'm happy about.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  You, you brought it up. Google used to be the obvious starting point when someone needed a lawyer. Um, what happens now when that person starts asking ChatGPT instead?

• 6:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, so Google is still king, but chat's coming quick. Um, the technical term is, so you have SEO, which is a search engine, GEO, which stands for generative engine. Um, roughly in order, it's, you know, ChatGPT, Claude, Perplexity, and then Gemini and Google AI reviews as well. And I will tell you at my own firm, I was looking at this this morning, one-third of the last, because I also have a law firm in California, and one-third of the last 10 cases I've signed at my law firm, or three out of the last 10, are from AI search. Two from ChatGPT and one from Grok, which is very interesting to me.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  Um, and I think it's important to understand that there's a fundamental difference with how people use AI and how people use Google. Somebody on Google will simply search, um, car accident lawyer near me, slip and fall lawyer near me, dog bite lawyer near me. That's the most common search. That ain't what happens on AI. People will either voice to their AI or they'll type, I was bit by a dog, what do I do? And then AI will return and say, okay, call the control center, yada, yada, yada, um, check for rabies, whatever we have to do, right? And then they'll say, do you want me to find you a lawyer? And then that person will respond, yes, give me the best dog bite lawyers in Los Angeles.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  And then you get your response. And so not only, previously, we're primarily optimizing for search position, right?

• 8:08Speaker 02

  We'll optimize for a search position. We know that if we're one, we're going to get 10 times the visits as if we're 10. But if I'm in the first three, I'm satisfied. Uh, now we're optimizing for citations and mentions. And for all the watchers and listeners, a citation is when you're a source. A mention is when you're in the list. And so we see a lot of conversation around, oh, you have to be cited, you have to be cited. Yes and no. Citations only matter, in my opinion, to the extent that they drive mentions. Because your average consumer is not clicking into the sources and going to the citation list. You'd much rather have the mentions. Now, there's a mass overlap between citations and mentions, right? So you want to do both, but my, I'm really focused on mentions, right?

• 8:49Speaker 02

  And so what that means is whereas Google is largely reliant on your own website, let's now say that there is a super lawyers or directory listing that's heavily cited. Well, then we have to be in that citation, which is how we get the mention. So it's a little bit of a different mindset.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  It sounds it. Are we heading to a world now where getting recommended by AI matters more than ranking number one on Google?

• 9:12Speaker 02

  I think there is a real chance, um, in a year, we are not seeing 10 blue legs for the vast majority of searchers. So yes, I also think that the good news is that there's not fewer people finding lawyers on the internet, right? That's not changing. It's just the method, right? How are they finding them? And that's what's changing. And yeah, I mean, because I'll talk to, you know, my younger family members who are, um, you know, 13, 14, they don't use Google at all. They just go straight to ChatGPT. And I think that's indicative of what the future will hold.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  You've helped so many law firms. What's your biggest challenge now?

• 9:59Speaker 02

  So

• 10:02Speaker 02

  from inside the company, right? We're always trying to have fantastic people with us and I'm lucky to have people that have been with us a long time. And as we grow, so 80% of our business this year has been from referrals and people finding me through my own SEO and some LinkedIn. And so as we've been growing a lot, it's about finding the right people who are bought into your vision of what you're doing, right? And so my goal is to become, right? I want to be the engine that helps great lawyers get cases they deserve. That's my goal and that's my vision. And so it's always right as you grow, we got to find the right people and find the right seat on the bus. And so that's our big, I don't want to say struggle, but it's a big focus point for us right now.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  Okay, imagine you have a small law firm listening. Feels completely overwhelmed by SEO, AI, reviews, social media, PPC, everything else they're supposed to be doing. If they could focus on, let's say, the three things that are going to move the needle the most for the next 12 months, what, how do you tell them how to choose?

• 11:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it's a scary world, right? There's a lot of channels and there's a lot of sales.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  Tactics in the space, right? Someone's going to tell you, social media, I'm going to get you a hundred dollar cases, right? That's going to get 50,000 times ROI. Not going to happen. And so I think there's like a bucket of things you can do in-house and a bucket of things you can do out of house. And if we look at the whole internet, we have, like you said, pay per click, which I would not recommend starting with. We have LSAs, which are okay, but you need reviews to do well with them. You have Google search, traditional, you have GEO and you have local search, which is your map listings. The number one thing you need to do before you even contact a vendor or anybody is make sure you get your Google review process down and flowing nicely

• 11:53Speaker 02

  relative to your market. That's the number one thing. The number two thing I tell people, and I'm an internet guy, right? But you want to make sure that you're feet on the street and doing what you can to generate referrals because a referral is always going to, pretty much always going to convert at a higher level than a cold internet lead. Right? If we convert 15% of our internet leads, I'm happy. If we convert 30% of our referrals, that's really good or even higher. And then when you're looking for a vendor, right? My preference is always to start search first because it's often high intent, whereas social media is more prospecting based. Prospecting, meaning you're casting a wider net and saying, hey, if you need me, find me.

• 12:33Speaker 02

  Whereas search, at least the way I do search is high intent. So somebody's actually in need of a lawyer right now. And then call vendors, interview them, see who you vibe with, see who speaks the language that you speak, see who understands your business, all of those things too.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Your passion is obvious. What do you like best about what you're doing?

• 12:56Speaker 02

  On the law firm, my own firm, I love helping people who are in need. I think it's just, it's gives me a lot of juice in my life. And on the Matador, the marketing company, like I get so much personal, I'm a surfer, so I'm going to say this, I get a lot of stoke out of when I can see on my lead tracking, I helped a lawyer get a really good case, right? Most of our firms are one to 10 lawyers. And so I'm working mostly directly with the lawyer. And when I can see and hear that we're making a real impact on their lives and their business and they're great lawyers, then it just gives me so much energy.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  That is awesome. Well, we know your time is incredibly valuable. We greatly appreciate you spending some of it with us. For our folks watching and listening who want to learn more, where's the best place for them to go to learn about you, about Matador? And what state should they go check out your law firm in and where, what is that law firm as well?

• 13:52Speaker 02

  Yes. So my law firm, if you just go to www.cohen.c o h e n dot law. I jumped on that domain early. We're a plaintiff's personal injury law firm based in Los Angeles. Matador, which is nationwide. We serve all practice areas. Go to matador solutions.net. I love consulting with people, even if it were not the right fit to be your client. So give me a call and I'll point you in the right direction at least.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  All right. Thank you so much. This has been Seth Green with Nick Cohen from Matador Solutions.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  And the Cohen Law Firm. Thank you, everybody for watching or listening. We will talk to you or see you next time.

• 14:31Speaker 03

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