435: 163 Kids Found in FL, Lindsay Clancy Verdict, Montana Family Annihilator & Girl Hires BF to Kill Mom

This week on Headline Highlights: Carson Peters-Berger, who was 14 when he murdered his 10-year-old cousin Lily Peters, pleaded guilty to first-degree intentional homicide in a plea deal. Florida’s Operation Statewide Shield recovered 163 missing children in five days across the U. S. and abroad. A Billings, Montana man killed eight members of his family before taking his own life. An Ohio woman was allegedly murdered by her own daughter and her daughter’s boyfriend and roommate in a premeditated plot following a family argument. After five weeks of testimony, the Lindsay Clancy jury has reported that it is deadlocked and unable to reach a unanimous verdict, as the judge sends them back to deliberate again.. If you’re new here, don’t forget to follow the show for weekly deep dives into the darkest true crime cases! To watch the video version of this episode, head over to youtube.com/@annieelise. .🔎Join Our True Crime Club & Get Exclusive Content & Perks..🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to both of my weekly true crime series 10 to Life & Serialously with Annie Elise wherever you get your podcasts on the Annie Elise Channel!🍎 Apple Podcasts | Where you can also unlock access to 100+ and growing extra exclusive deep dives.💚 Spotify🔴 YouTube🎙️ All Other Platforms.📸 Follow Annie on Socials Instagram: @_annieeliseTikTok: @_annieeliseSubstack: @annieeliseFacebook: @10toLife.⭐SponsorsJolie: Try Jolie risk-free for 60 days by going to http://jolieskinco.com/AE..👗 Shop Annie’s Must-Haves! ShopMY: bit.ly/AnnieElise_ShopMy Amazon: bit.ly/AnnieElise_Amazon.🫵🏻 Get Involved or Recommend a CaseAbout Annie: www.annieelise.comFor Business Inquiries: [email protected].📚 Episode Sources 10TV | AP News | ABC6 | Abby Blabby | CBS News | Delaware County Sheriff’s Office | Delaware Source | FOX13 | Nate Eaton | New York Post | People | WPBF••••••••••••••••••🚨Disclaimers1️⃣ Some links may be affiliate links, they do not cost you anything, but I make a small percentage from the sale. Thank you so much for watching and supporting me. 2️⃣ Sources used to collect this information include various public news sites, interviews, court documents, FB groups dedicated to the case, and various news channel segments. When quoting statements made by others, they are strictly alleged until confirmed otherwise. Please remember my videos are my independent opinion and to always do your own research. 3️⃣ The views and opinions expressed in this video are personal and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organization, employer, or company. Assumptions made in the analysis are not reflective of the position of any entity other than the creator(s). These views are subject to change, revision, and rethinking at any time and are not to be held in perpetuity. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, correctness, suitability, or validity of any information on this video and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use. All information is provided on an as-is basis. It is the reader’s responsibility to verify their own facts.

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• 1:29Speaker 00

  Hey, true crime besties. Welcome back to an all-new episode of Seriallessly.

• 1:53Speaker 00

  Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back to an all-new episode of Seriallessly. With me, your true crime bestie and your host, Annie Elise. Happy Thursday. As you know, Thursdays are headline highlights days where we're going through everything that is happening in true crime this week. A deep dive did come out on Monday. It was all about the Philly House of Horrors, Eugene Horsh, which talk about like the ultimate jump scare if you see his face and his dad's face. But I know so many of you have been asking for coverage on that. People suspect that he may be the United States' worst serial killer in over 50 years. So, you know, doing what we do over here, had to like dig through newspaper

• 2:34Speaker 00

  clippings, archival, and like get the backstory on not only Eugene, but also his disgusting-ass dad. And so I released that deep dive for you on Monday. Go take a listen. You probably, for all my audio listeners, will also want to check out the YouTube video version, though, because you've got to see these photos. It is like jump scare mania. But that was the Deep Dive Monday. Today, it's headline highlights, as I said. Lots to go over. We have Lindsey Clancy verdict, the deadlocked jury on Tuesday, so much to discuss. We unfortunately somehow have a new family annihilator case out of Billings, Montana. You have also been asking

• 3:15Speaker 00

  that I dig into the 163 kids that were found in Florida. We're digging into that. And I actually tasked that on my expert guest host, Ultimate Frisbee Champion, Amy Collette.

• 3:30Speaker 03

  Hello. Good morning.

• 3:32Speaker 00

  Now, if you don't understand that reference, it's because you need to listen to last week's episode.

• 3:36Speaker 03

  And for the record, I don't play frisbee.

• 3:39Speaker 00

  You should.

• 3:40Speaker 03

  Annie wants to.

• 3:41Speaker 00

  Apparently, it's a good exercise thing. I actually was going to tell you, we haven't talked about this yet. I don't know if you saw the comments on YouTube from last week's episode. A lot of people were surprised that we are actually sisters.

• 3:53Speaker 03

  No, I know.

• 3:54Speaker 00

  And so maybe it's a lot of new listeners who aren't understanding.

• 3:57Speaker 03

  I think it is.

• 3:57Speaker 00

  But yes, guys, we are sisters. She's the older one.

• 4:01Speaker 03

  Barely. And

• 4:02Speaker 00

  Barely three years.

• 4:04Speaker 03

  Barely. And I remember for a long time, people thought we were twins. Obviously, not with our hair right now. But how did they not even know we're sisters?

• 4:12Speaker 00

  No, they're all, you guys sound alike. Are you sisters? And people were like schooling them. And of course, they're sisters. But yes, we are sisters and biologically sisters, not just sisters.

• 4:25Speaker 03

  Not just best friends.

• 4:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. So I have tasked you today, or not today, but like before, but you're going to cover that story because I just like need a mental break for a minute.

• 4:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:35Speaker 00

  And I know it's wild, but

• 4:36Speaker 03

  Yes. I gotcha.

• 4:38Speaker 00

  Lots to do. We also both have our foot up on the table right now, and we're both wearing the exact same shoes. What's happening?

• 4:44Speaker 03

  So that happened last week, and that was before I knew we were filming in the new set and you were going to see my feet. But then I was like, these are the perfect shoes because today I actually had open-toed shoes and I felt like we don't need foot finder.

• 4:57Speaker 00

  This isn't OnlyFans. Put your feet away.

• 5:00Speaker 03

  But we should be sponsored by Luso.

• 5:02Speaker 00

  Luso, where's our boy Chris Noes?

• 5:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 5:05Speaker 00

  Sponsor us. Flip this. Sponsor us. No, it's my brother's best friend's company. I told you guys about them before. They basically, weren't they modeled after

• 5:13Speaker 03

  Oh, there you go. There's a toe.

• 5:14Speaker 00

  Weren't they modeled after the Four Seasons slipper?

• 5:17Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 5:18Speaker 00

  And so they're like this waffle. Look at me doing a sponsored ad and it's not even sponsored. Go ahead, zoom in. No, they're like this waffle material. They're slip-on shoes and they are so padded and comfy. I have them in like every color.

• 5:30Speaker 03

  And they're the best to fly in because my feet swell up, so.

• 5:33Speaker 00

  Okay. I didn't need to go that far. There was something else. Oh, yeah. So back onto the sister comment. I told you before we started recording that I have a social media reel I want to film with you.

• 5:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:46Speaker 00

  I'm not going to tell you what it is ahead of time, but we will post it and we will see just how simpatico

• 5:51Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 5:51Speaker 00

  we are.

• 5:52Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 5:52Speaker 00

  The pressure's on. Okay, so let's start. We have obviously so much to go over today. So let's start. And I'm getting ahead of myself. I also, at the end of this episode, I'm going to talk to you about Micah Miller because if you have watched Death of the Pastor's Wife, and I know so many of you have, we've got to talk about that. I have been knee-deep in that case for years now, and it's wild, but I have a lot of thoughts. So anyway, let's start, though, with an update in the Lily Peters case. And I don't remember if we talked about this last week or the week prior, but I want to give you an update in this case. And it's the case of 10-year-old Lily Peters. She was murdered in Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin, back in 2022. Now, like I said, if you remember this case, we recently talked about it because

• 6:34Speaker 00

  there was another update. But and I have a deep dive coming back out in the next couple of weeks where you'll be able to hear the full story, start to finish. But Lily was killed on April 24, 2022, after she was walking home to her house with her 14-year-old cousin, Carson. Carson and Lily were going back to Lily's house when he asked her to leave the trail that they were on, go explore the woods. She followed him. He was older than her and she, you know, it was her cousin and she trusted him. Lily was on her bike. Carson was on his hoverboard. But then, once they were away from that trail and in the wooded area, he attacked her. He knocked her in the stomach, knocked her to the ground, struck her in the head, ultimately strangled her to death, and then allegedly sexually

• 7:19Speaker 00

  assaulted Lily's body after she was dead. Only 10 years old. Just sick. So he got scared, like the little bitch that he is, and immediately ran away, ran home, and pretended that he didn't know where she was or what happened. He showered, he cleaned his clothes, and then he eventually returned to the scene and he covered his little cousin's body with leaves. Lily's father had reported her missing that night after she didn't come home by 9:00 PM, and then two hours later, her bike was found abandoned in the woods. The next morning, during a volunteer search party, they found Lily's partially unclothed body. So her death was ruled as a homicide via blunt force trauma and strangulation. So Carson was arrested two days later, and then he was charged with first-degree intentional homicide and sexual

• 8:03Speaker 00

  assault. Authorities said that he had confessed and told investigators that the killing and the sexually assaulting Lily had been his plan all along. This wasn't some spur-of-the-moment crime of opportunity, crime of passion. It was something that he had been planning. Now, Carson was 14 years old at the time. Okay, like born bad, diabolical, disgusting, evil human being. However, in January of 2024, it was determined that he would be tried as an adult, which, thank God, we love that for him, right? So his trial was scheduled to take place in November of this year. However, as the update was a couple of weeks ago, and the whole point, I gave you the update, is because we learned that the trial may never happen. They announced that there was a resolution hearing that was going to be held on August

• 8:45Speaker 00

  26. However, because the court records were sealed based on his minor status, based on the case itself, we didn't know what that actually meant. I think in that episode, I said, I bet he's having, you know, a plea agreement. He's going to plead guilty either to a lesser charge or to something. He doesn't want to be tried as an adult and have like this adult sentence. That's most likely what's going to happen. And sure enough, now that that hearing has happened, we know. So last Wednesday, on August 26, he pleaded guilty to first-degree intentional homicide as part of his plea agreement. But here is what really pisses me off for a multitude of reasons, and I actually fly off the handle in my deep dive, which, like, you know how I get when I run on a tangent, but couldn't hold back.

• 9:29Speaker 00

  In exchange for his guilty plea, they actually removed the two sexual assault charges. They were dismissed.

• 9:36Speaker 03

  What?

• 9:36Speaker 00

  I know. And so the charges were, quote, "read in," which means that while Carson wasn't convicted of those charges, he acknowledged that the judge could consider the allegations when determining his sentence, but basically getting thrown a huge bone in this situation. And the sentence he got, while it wasn't light, I personally do not believe that it was just. He was sentenced to life in prison. However, he has the possibility of extended supervision after 25 years. He was also given credit for the four years, roughly, that he has already spent in custody, which, take a listen to this sentencing.

• 10:14Speaker 04

  All right, then to the charge of first-degree intentional homicide, how do you plead?

• 10:22Speaker 04

  Guilty.

• 10:24Speaker 04

  How do you plead?

• 10:27Speaker 04

  Guilty.

• 10:30Speaker 04

  While there's sentencing factors, the court takes into consideration gravity of the fence. I can think of no more serious offense in the world than first degree intentional homicide. It's a Class A felony.

• 10:47Speaker 04

  Character of the defendant and the need for her rehabilitation. You were 14 when you committed this. Obviously, there's a need for rehabilitation. The public needs to be protected. This is a first degree intentional homicide.

• 11:06Speaker 04

  While you were a minor when you committed it, it is still a very serious offense, and it shook this community. So what I am going to do is I'm going to sentence you to life in prison with the eligibility for extended supervision after a period of 25 years.

• 11:37Speaker 00

  So he was also ordered to pay a little over $30,000 in restitution. Now, that whole extended supervision thing kind of sounds like parole, but it's not quite that. It's a little bit different. Basically, when inmates are given a chance at parole, a commissions board decides if they should be let out based on their prison life, right? If they've had good behavior, what their file looks like, and everything that has happened while they've been incarcerated. Also, if they've picked up any new charges, fights in the prison, other things, you know, whatever it may be. However, in an extended release case, Carson will have to file a formal petition with the court and then go before a judge who then will ultimately decide if he can prove that he is no longer a risk to the public.

• 12:17Speaker 00

  Also, with parole, it's usually for a certain amount of time that the parole board gets to decide, you know, one year, five years. And then if they violate parole, they get rearrested, or they get rearrested on new charges. It kind of like kicks back into gear. But for Carson, if he is ever granted extended release, he will be under supervision for the rest of his life. And if he breaks even one rule, then he goes straight back to prison and he will carry out the rest of his sentence. Which, that gives me a little bit of comfort, I guess. The fact that like, oh, you have to really be a model citizen for the rest of your life, or your ass is going back in the slammer. But, I mean, after four years of waiting for this case to finally go to trial, we now know there will not be a trial.

• 12:58Speaker 00

  And he's pled guilty to killing Lily. He's gonna spend, hopefully, the rest of his life in prison. But where I get hung up is is this justice for Lily's family? Or, here's where I get even more hung up. The fact that the sexual assault charges were dismissed because of the plea agreement. Does that mean if he's ever on supervised release, he won't be on the registry?

• 13:22Speaker 03

  That's exactly what I was gonna ask you.

• 13:23Speaker 00

  He won't have any sort of repercussions? It's gonna absolve him of doing that? Also, from a family's-

• 13:29Speaker 03

  Can you work at a school?

• 13:30Speaker 00

  Right. And for, from a family's perspective, God forbid if we were in that situation, I would think, oh, so you're acknowledging that he killed her, but you're not acknowledging what he did to her dead body? And how he desecrated her memory, her body, her remains? Like, that's just as important in all of this with the sentencing and accountability and justice. And so, I get while plea agreements, you have to, it's like give and take a little bit. This really pissed me the fuck off.

• 13:57Speaker 03

  I was gonna say, I think if the sentence were a little lighter and that happened, it would be extremely frustrating and upsetting. But, I don't know the details as well as you did, so if there was a chance that if they didn't do the plea and move forward, that the sentence could be lighter, then I think as a family, I would probably, because that's a family member, so that's kind of wild. I would want them to be away from me as long as possible. And if that meant removing a charge to make sure they're locked up, fine.

• 14:27Speaker 00

  I don't think that it would be lighter because he was being tried as an adult. He already had confessed and admitted. His DNA, I believe, was inside of Lily. It was a slam dunk case. He did have a lot of family members initially going to bat for him and trying to like, you know, he's, he's great, he's innocent, very Aiden Fucci ilk, or elk, or whatever the fuck you say.

• 14:50Speaker 00

  I don't know what the decision was here and why they did that. But when you think the math of it all, he's 20 years old now. No, he's 18 years old now, whatever, 18, 19. He'll be, if he gets supervised release, that he'll be 45 years old, okay? And he can still have a family, he can still have a career, he can still have a life. And while, yes, he has to be on his best behavior because he'll get thrown back in if he, you know, does anything wrong, still, how is that fair when this 10-year-old girl was brutalized by her own flesh and blood?

• 15:23Speaker 03

  So why do they offer an option of a plea?

• 15:26Speaker 00

  Usually for a lot of reasons. Sometimes it's to save the family members, like the heartache of going through the trial. Sometimes it's because the resources it's going to take, or the state, for some reason, doesn't feel that they can prove their case and get a rock-solid conviction, which again, I don't think is the case here.

• 15:42Speaker 03

  And the family wouldn't have had to sign off on it?

• 15:45Speaker 00

  No. No. Usually, sometimes they have the family weigh in, but ultimately, I mean, hello, look at what happened in Idaho.

• 15:51Speaker 03

  I know.

• 15:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, not always. So, like I said, that deep dive is coming, but I just want to warn you guys. Very passionate. I recently recorded it and I get a little heated.

• 16:03Speaker 03

  It's a really hard one.

• 16:05Speaker 00

  Like, and yeah, I mean, sexual assault on its face is like disgusting regardless how it happens, when it happens, and who it happens by. But then, the necrophilia aspect of it all, which like, not to get like overly graphic, I understand she wasn't like cold and in a morgue, but like,

• 16:22Speaker 03

  No.

• 16:22Speaker 00

  Postmortem. Like, you are sick.

• 16:24Speaker 03

  It's your cousin. We're so close with our cousins, they're like brothers to us.

• 16:28Speaker 00

  And you have these urges at 14 years old. Like, I know guys have urges at 14 years old. I'm not, you know, like naive in that sense, but like, diabolical.

• 16:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:38Speaker 00

  Straight to jail.

• 16:40Speaker 03

  For life.

• 16:40Speaker 00

  Straight to prison.

• 16:41Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 16:42Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 16:44Speaker 03

  Okay, well, I'm gonna give you a breather.

• 16:46Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 16:46Speaker 03

  This is the one that you guys have been asking a lot about. It broke last week and is shocking, but thankfully in a good way, in some regard. So last week, it was announced that over the course of five days, law enforcement across Florida, we're back in Florida, found 163 missing children in just one of the largest child recovery operations in all of US history. And it's the biggest one that Florida has ever done. It was called Operation Statewide Shield, and the goal was pretty simple. It was to find missing kids who were missing, endangered, had run away, and get them somewhere safe. And investigators were then taking the information from these missing persons cases

• 17:30Speaker 03

  and figuring out where these kids might be, and then sending officers out to then actually find them. And they were finding them all over the place. There were 46 children found in the Tampa Bay area, 41 in Miami, 32 in Jacksonville, 21 in Orlando, 12 in Fort Myers, 8 in Pensacola, and 3 in Tallahassee. So they were all over the state. And it wasn't just kids who were missing somewhere in Florida. Authorities say that some of these children were also found in six other states, one US territory, and even 12 different countries. Which is wild to think of how widespread this was. And the kids ranged in age from just two months old to 17 years old.

• 18:15Speaker 03

  And officials say many of them had experienced some level of neglect, exploitation, or had been exposed to some sort of criminal activity. And you can actually take a listen to that press conference here.

• 18:26Speaker 05

  You know, how were we, you know, how were these kids missing in the first place? It really does run the gamut. You've got some relatives or distant relatives that will kidnap or get into custody battles over kids. You have some foster care situations where unfortunately, kids are abused. You get some kids that are neglected, that run away, that turn to drugs. You get kids that fall victim to, you know, pimps that push them into prostitution, that run trafficking rings. Really, really all the above. It's a pretty sad situation. We, you know, we will have a lot of arrests and more information to come. That's probably as specific as I can get at this point.

• 19:06Speaker 03

  And so, once they were found, they were taken to recovery hubs where they could actually get some medical care, help from child welfare workers, social services, and victim advocates. Basically, people could, who could really figure out what exactly these children needed and help place them with the right professionals to try to get them that specific care. And Florida has actually done quite a few big operations like this before. Operation Dragon Eye found 60 missing kids in 2025, and Operation Home for the Holidays found more than 120. But this time, less than a year after those two other operations, they found an additional 163 kids, which to me,

• 19:47Speaker 03

  I mean, I don't know about you, that sounds like a lot. You just had these two big operations in the same state, and now you're finding, when I heard 163, that number to me was like staggering.

• 19:57Speaker 00

  Well, yes, and especially with where it's connected and like the arrests, which I know you're gonna get, but like, yeah, it's wild. It's a lot of kids.

• 20:06Speaker 03

  I'm getting to that now.

• 20:07Speaker 00

  Get to it, O'Brien. Get to it.

• 20:09Speaker 03

  Well, of course, there were arrests in all of this.

• 20:12Speaker 00

  Thank God.

• 20:13Speaker 03

  Three initial arrests have been announced as of right now, which three felt like not very many when I first read that.

• 20:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:20Speaker 03

  The first was Robert Farrell Allison, who was arrested by the Lee County Sheriff's Office on August 20th and charged with lewd and lascivious battery on a victim between 12 and 16 years old. Then on August 21st, the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office arrested Michael Prescott, who was charged with three counts of lewd and lascivious acts with a minor felony battery and aggravated assault. He also has a warrant for interference with child custody. And then the third person, Jaden Allen Harwood, was also reportedly charged with interference in a child custody case and resisting officers without violence. So that, I'm wondering, is there some familial?

• 20:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's some weirdness with all the custody stuff.

• 21:01Speaker 03

  So obviously with only these three arrests so far, there's gonna be more to come. And there are still several open investigations connected to this operation. And then, of course, investigators are only scratching the surface at this point with that many children across that many counties and countries and even states. I'm sure they're gonna find a lot more. But aside from the arrests, the fact that there were, like we said, 163 kids found in five days is a huge deal and a huge accomplishment that I don't think is really being talked about enough. Some were even literally babies, of course, up to teenagers. But I think getting to the root of like how these children all went missing and for how long.

• 21:43Speaker 03

  And hopefully other states are learning from this and are gonna have some organizations like this where they're going out and searching as well, because clearly there's a need for it.

• 21:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 21:53Speaker 03

  Which is crazy. So thankfully, they're all in the hands of people who can help them now. And hopefully they can help rehabilitate them and get them into some safe environments.

• 22:04Speaker 00

  I have thoughts.

• 22:05Speaker 03

  Give them to me.

• 22:06Speaker 00

  I'm gonna lose my mind right now, so bear with me, because there's two things that really pissed me off this weekend. One, this case, but more so because people who were posting about this case, and not credible news organizations, some, but more of like, you know how you'll get in your feed, like on either Instagram or on TikTok, like random news updates where it's like a clip and it looks like breaking news? The amount of times I saw this headline, but the footage that was being clipped with it were not the children being rescued, but the children from, um, like Ariel Castro's house. And the one woman, I, her name is leaving me, I apologize, who had the panda eyes and was up in the attic. And all of these things to almost sensationalize it and make it look, not saying make it look worse than it is,

• 22:50Speaker 00

  but to have more very heavy graphics along with it, to where people thought these were the children being rescued and these were the conditions they were living in. I thought it was really distasteful and gross. Like, the story's bad enough. You don't need to, you know, sensationalize it and put all of these images and re-traumatize these victims who have now been saved all over again. That made me mad. The second thing that made me mad is our friend Greg at CRC, Child Rescue Coalition. I've, I think I've talked with you guys about them on the podcast. If I haven't, they are a fantastic organization that we've partnered with. They have developed this amazing technology where not only can they track predators as they are exchanging explicit material and sharing material on the web,

• 23:33Speaker 00

  but they can track the IP address, they share it with local law enforcement, they help aid in the arrest. And it's just unbelievable and I cannot speak highly enough about them. But Greg made a post that, and I don't know the exact details, but that basically, we are now taking a step, step backward within law enforcement to where certain people or certain charges of AI-related material is not going to be charged as seriously.

• 24:02Speaker 03

  I saw that.

• 24:04Speaker 00

  Because it's not a real victim, because it's not a real image. And that made me really mad because for tons of reasons. It looks like real material, first and foremost. And it's different if somebody takes somebody's face and photo-shops it on. But if it's actually just AI-generated, that's where this argument is coming from, or I should say this decision is coming from. But here's where I don't like this. It then normalizes it.

• 24:29Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:29Speaker 00

  Because if there's no sort of repercussions for looking at that material, creating that material, sharing that material, then it's going to continue to be circulated. People are going to start not becoming necessarily desensitized to it, but after you see something enough times, you, there, it becomes a bit normalized in a sense, and...

• 24:49Speaker 03

  Well, and who's to say, like, where's the boundary there? Because what if they take an image of your child and use AI to enhance it and make modifications, but it's still very much?

• 24:59Speaker 00

  I think then they can charge, but if it's just like somebody going into AI.

• 25:02Speaker 03

  And creating it with a prompt.

• 25:03Speaker 00

  Create this blonde little girl with pig tails and, yeah, then it's not, quote, "a real victim." But then it's like, if you're able to continue to share and create and do all this, it's where it's all over the place.

• 25:14Speaker 03

  And potentially sell it.

• 25:15Speaker 00

  Yes. It's like, you're normalizing it, you're accepting it, you probably are desensitizing a bit to it.

• 25:21Speaker 03

  And it's only a matter of time before you take it a step further.

• 25:24Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly. And so I know we've talked about this ad nauseam for years, but it's like, law is catching up very slowly with technology. And so I know a lot of people are pushing back on this. I know there's a lot of stuff happening on the Hill of people trying to fight this and do things like that. But it is very disheartening. And when I saw that, I was like, we are taking literally 20 steps backwards. And if we can't even, you know, enforce the law on that right now in this moment, when AI is used for literally everything, where are we gonna be when the law catches up in three or five years, hopefully? And how, how much further progress will AI be at that point, you know?

• 26:03Speaker 03

  And it's not only just how normalized it is, it's like, then it can also get in the hands of people far younger.

• 26:09Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 26:09Speaker 03

  And just, I mean, there's so many problems with it.

• 26:12Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 26:13Speaker 03

  That's really disheartening.

• 26:14Speaker 00

  I know. So you guys should definitely check out Child Rescue Coalition if you haven't and like, see what they are all about. Check out their Instagram, their website. Again, cannot speak highly enough about them. Today's episode is sponsored by ZENNI. All right, you guys know we all have those things on our to-do list that we keep putting off. For me, it is grocery shopping, it's decorating for the holidays, it's so much stuff. And for some reason, getting new glasses, it always seems to be one of them too. But honestly, I realized it doesn't have to be such a production. That's where ZENNI comes in. They make shopping for prescription glasses and sunglasses so easy, with frames starting under $30. You can browse tons of cute styles, you can virtually try them on too, you can enter your prescription,

• 26:59Speaker 00

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• 27:41Speaker 00

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• 27:52Speaker 00

  All right. So like I said, these family annihilator cases, familiicide, seem to be happening more and more. I don't know if like, summer 2026 is just the summer of you're supposed to kill your family, but like, I don't know what is going on.

• 28:05Speaker 03

  So genuine question, because I've been horrified by this also and asked you, do you think that people are seeing this happen? And like, getting the idea in their head and thinking, like, then I should do that?

• 28:18Speaker 00

  I should do that too.

• 28:18Speaker 03

  Because how is it that all of the sudden, truly?

• 28:21Speaker 00

  I don't think people are seeing it and getting the idea, because in most cases, the murderer is being held accountable or has taken their own life. And so it's not like they're seeing something that they could get away with, like an Alpine divorce, for example, but... There is certainly an uptick and I don't know.

• 28:40Speaker 03

  But they are getting away with it if they're taking their own life.

• 28:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, I guess if they're taking their own life.

• 28:44Speaker 03

  Like, oh, that's the solution to my problem?

• 28:46Speaker 00

  I'd want to talk to a psychologist about it because like part of me wonders during COVID, we saw a huge uptick in child abuse cases and especially with the special needs community because they were at home and the parents couldn't deal. So part of me wonders, is there some sort of element of like summer break and it's too much or these families who have multiple children because most of the families where it's happening, it's like a family of six or eight, or it's like these large families. It's not just a husband, wife and one child or something like that. I don't know. All I know is I feel like there's a new one every single week. This one is coming from Billings, Montana. So many of you have DM'd me about it, so we need to talk about it. So at 6:01 PM on Sunday, August 23rd, the Billings Police Department in Montana got

• 29:30Speaker 00

  a 911 call that reported hearing shots fired inside a home. When the first officers arrived, they confronted a man outside who was later identified as 44-year-old Alan Smith. However, like the little coward ass he is, he ran back inside the house as soon as they tried to talk to him. Officers then heard gunshots and smoke coming from inside the house. So Alan eventually ran into the backyard where authorities say he then shot himself. He was taken to the hospital, but he was later pronounced dead. Now, within minutes, very similar to the other case we just talked about, the house was completely engulfed in flames. Now, because the homes in this neighborhood use wells and not fire hydrants, it took firefighters a long time to figure out like the water situation.

• 30:15Speaker 00

  They had to bring water in by truck. They couldn't just hook their hose up to a fire hydrant. So it took a lot longer, obviously, and they ended up fighting the fire for hours, finally getting it under control around 1:00 AM the following morning. And then, once it was safe enough for the investigators to actually get inside the home, they went in, wanted to see, you know, how many victims there were, what was really going on here, and they discovered something horrific. Eight people were dead. According to authorities, before Alan turned the gun on himself, he had killed his grandmother, his parents, his sister and her four children, then took his own life. The victims were 92-year-old Evelyn Smith, Alan's grandmother, his parents Dana and Barb

• 30:59Speaker 00

  Smith, his 39-year-old sister Megan Jacary, and Megan's four children, 13-year-old Owen, 12-year-old Chloe, 15-year-old Landon and 12-year-old Charlotte. Now, police have not confirmed yet which family member made that 911 call because I guess the call did come from inside the house. It wasn't a neighbor overhearing it, but a neighbor later said that little 12-year-old Charlotte was the person who called 911. However, I haven't been able to verify that or confirm that, but what the neighbor said is that she called 911 saying that she was trying to save her family, which can you even imagine that you're seeing him wipe out your whole family at 12 years old, you're calling for help because you're like, he's shooting all of my family members.

• 31:44Speaker 00

  He's killing everybody. It's so awful and terrible to think about.

• 31:49Speaker 03

  Literally, it's like making me cry.

• 31:50Speaker 00

  I know. So as investigators started going through the scene, they found some weapons, but they haven't said what type of gun or guns were used. They also haven't publicly released a motive yet. The sheriff said that investigators do have some idea of what could have prompted the shooting, but their main focus was processing the crime scene. So as more information then started coming out from family members, it was learned that the home actually belonged to Alan's parents. Alan had been living there with them, but the police say that he had just moved out a few weeks before the killings. Now, in most of these cases, we don't usually know the details about why or how things happened. However, in this case, there are some conflicting stories about why he moved out, why he left

• 32:31Speaker 00

  the home, and whether that might have actually been his motive for killing his entire family. Megan's longtime best friend Kelsey said that Alan left on his own sometime around the end of July and that he didn't tell his family where he was going. According to her, Alan didn't have a job and he didn't have any sort of income. However, the family wasn't particularly worried about him. Megan's ex-husband, however, said that Alan was a hermit, that he spent most of his time on the computer and that he was asked to leave by the family a few weeks prior. He said that Alan had attended Eastern Washington University and that he had a bachelor's degree, but for whatever reason, never seemed to be able to find a job or hold down a job. He also said that there were in fact warning signs saying, there were many red flags and

• 33:16Speaker 00

  many people spoke out, but no one listened. So now investigators are trying to figure out what those red flags exactly were, what really happened in those weeks leading up to the shooting and what ultimately caused Alan, after moving out, to go back into that neighborhood, go back into that house and carry out this mass murder of his family. Because when you look at the timeline, it is really difficult to wrap your head around. Alan had left the family home. Then he decided to what, show back up in the neighborhood weeks later? Someone inside called 911, reporting that shots had been fired, and then eight people, nine including Alan, ended up dead. So as investigators have continued going through what's left of the home, they have

• 33:57Speaker 00

  found some reminders of the life that was there before this horrific tragedy took place. There was a family photo album that was found, still mostly intact as well, which is amazing and a huge miracle. There was a family Bible that was found almost completely untouched, which is just wild to think about, but just again, goes to show that there was a lot of love, a lot of probably faith in this family and a lot of care for one another. Neighbors have also been bringing investigators water and food as they've continued working their way through the wreckage. Meanwhile, the entire city of Billings is trying to process what happened. The mayor said that it would be very difficult to find someone in a city of about 120,000 who didn't have some kind of connection to these victims or feel the impact of their

• 34:42Speaker 00

  deaths. He said that there was at first shock, then followed by people who were deeply upset, and then that shock and upset turned to anger. And he said that that's okay because you're going to feel all of the different emotions as you go through the grieving process and just, not the understanding, but the realization of what has happened. I mean, nobody could have expected that in this small town, that something like this would happen. And I'm sure for everyone, directly connected, you know, six degrees of separation, whatever it may be, I'm sure it's a very complicated situation for people to process when it's somebody you either know, know by proxy or are friends with, and it's just incredibly difficult.

• 35:26Speaker 03

  I mean, before you got into the detail, I was, when you started naming who the victims were, I was thinking, they're not even his own children. Like what could possibly motivate you to kill your nieces and nephews? Like, obviously, that's what sent me into tears, but it's like, there are red flags. What are they? So, you know, is it, he was mad that he got kicked out? Was there already something weird going on that he's on the computer all the time and not holding a job? So we need to know what those red flags are so people can act, because you're right, it's complicated, it's family, it's hard to speak out, but when there's red flags, you have to speak out.

• 36:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think about his 92-year-old grandmother. She made it her whole life.

• 36:09Speaker 03

  I know.

• 36:09Speaker 00

  Only for this to be her ending, it's so awful.

• 36:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's just wild.

• 36:15Speaker 00

  It is so awful. A whole family just wiped.

• 36:17Speaker 03

  And again, if you're planning to take your own life anyway, why do you have to go to the extent of hurting your whole family who is just innocent bystanders in the whole

• 36:27Speaker 00

  Stop with yourself.

• 36:28Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 36:28Speaker 00

  Yes. Like, see, like, it's horrible. I know.

• 36:32Speaker 03

  I know. Well, this next one is pretty horrible too, and also has to do with family.

• 36:36Speaker 00

  Great.

• 36:36Speaker 03

  Yeah. This next case is out of Delaware County, Ohio.

• 36:40Speaker 00

  Oh, another Ohio case.

• 36:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know. Florida and Ohio.

• 36:45Speaker 00

  Honestly.

• 36:45Speaker 03

  Yeah. So just after midnight on Friday, August 14th, the deputies in Delaware County, Ohio, received a 911 call reporting that someone had been shot. The caller was a man named Neil King, and he said that someone had just shot his wife, 55-year-old Tamela Dutcher. Neil had told the dispatcher that he had been watching TV in the basement when he heard a gunshot and that he had ran upstairs to find her, and when he was looking for her, he heard another shot, this time somewhere near the dining room or one of the front rooms. Then he said he heard the door swing open and saw the back of someone running out of the house. You can actually listen to that dispatch call here. Shooting. Engine 321, medic 321.

• 37:27Speaker 06

  Battalion three twenty one at the Binola Road. That is the call that went out just after midnight for emergency responders to rush to the Dutcher family home.

• 37:39Speaker 07

  Dell comm, you're in Binola Road. You're going to stage for DCSO. There is a possible suspect on foot in the area, armed and dangerous. Fifty five year old female shot near the eye. She is still breathing. They're trying to put pressure.

• 37:57Speaker 03

  And when first responders arrived, his wife was rushed to the hospital, but just several hours later, she unfortunately died from her injuries. Investigators then spent the rest of the day inside of the home, just trying to figure out exactly what had happened. And at first, it looked like just a random intruder had come into the house and shot her. But then detectives started looking at what had happened just hours earlier, and they found out that the person who did this was actually much closer to home. Her eighteen year old daughter, Brianna, told investigators that she was cleaning a room in the house with the door shut when she heard the shooting happen. She said she didn't see anyone in the house and that she just heard a sound that quote, "made her ears ring." She also said that the front and back doors were usually locked, but she wasn't sure that

• 38:42Speaker 03

  that night they were specifically locked. And the only person she thought that could have maybe possibly done this was a family friend that her mom owed money to. But then her story changed, and she said that the door to the room that she was cleaning was actually open, but that she would have seen someone if they would have walked by her. She also added that she was dating a guy that her parents wouldn't approve of, saying that they were quote, "very racist," and if they knew he was black, they would have kicked her out of the house. And then her story got even more detailed. Brianna told investigators that just days before the shooting, she and her mom had gotten into an argument over cleaning. Brianna later called her boyfriend, twenty year old Christian Evans, to vent about this particular fight.

• 39:26Speaker 03

  And according to investigators, Christian told her, quote, "If I were you, I would have killed her." What kind of advice?

• 39:33Speaker 00

  What an idiot. And like, fighting over cleaning, like, how many times did mom yell at us to, like, clean our room or make her bed?

• 39:39Speaker 03

  Every single day.

• 39:39Speaker 00

  No, honestly, she still gets mad at me. No, if she, like, yelled at us and we call her boyfriend, she's like, "Man, you should have just killed her." Why? Because she asked me to do the dishes?

• 39:48Speaker 03

  And like, red flag.

• 39:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, what do you mean? And also, like, not for nothing, but he's twenty years old. Like, you're old enough to know better.

• 39:58Speaker 03

  It's crazy.

• 39:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:59Speaker 03

  She also told investigators that Christian's roommate, twenty one year old Dejamius Payne, had previously threatened to kidnap her family, and she claimed she was afraid of him, which obviously I would be afraid of someone threatening to kidnap my family, but...

• 40:13Speaker 00

  What?

• 40:14Speaker 03

  So your boyfriend recommends you killing your mom because she asked you to clean, and his roommate has threatened to kidnap your family?

• 40:23Speaker 00

  Like, why are you still dating this guy? And like, why is your boyfriend's roommate threatening to kidnap your family?

• 40:28Speaker 03

  Right?

• 40:30Speaker 00

  What is happening in Delaware County, Ohio? What is happening?

• 40:35Speaker 03

  So Brianna said that on the night of the shooting, Christian and his roommate had come to the family's home in Christian's car, but Brianna told Christian that she wasn't going to leave with them because she had responsibilities with the horses on the property. She claimed that the two men then just left, and then about ten to fifteen minutes later, that's when she heard that gunshot. Brianna initially denied knowing who was responsible and denied having any involvement at all in her mother's death. But investigators say that that story didn't hold up, obviously. A search of Brianna's phone reportedly recovered deleted text messages between her and Christian. Messages that prosecutors say showed that the murder had been planned in advance and that they were talking about it just minutes before her mom was shot.

• 41:18Speaker 03

  In the messages, Christian allegedly wrote things like, "Take them both out at the same time," and "This has to be perfect." Brianna also allegedly gave him information about where her parents were in the house, that her mom was in the living room and that her dad was in the basement. And now prosecutors say that Christian is the one who brought the gun to the home, but they haven't publicly said who it was that actually pulled the trigger. And Neil, Brianna's father, was also allegedly targeted. According to prosecutors, after her mom was shot, Neil rushed to then help his wife, and another shot was fired in his direction. He survived, and the bullet reportedly hit a wall instead. So by that afternoon, investigators had identified Christian and Dejamius as suspects,

• 42:03Speaker 03

  and at around five twenty five PM, detectives executed a search warrant and arrested both of them. Investigators say they had actually driven away from the area after the shooting and eventually went back to their apartment. And then there was Brianna. She was initially arrested on a charge of obstruction of justice after investigators accused her of lying about what she actually knew. But then on Monday, August twenty fourth, prosecutors announced that her charges had been upgraded to include murder. All three were later indicted on aggravated murder charges, and they are each facing a three million dollar bond. And there's still one detail about Brianna's mother that makes this case especially chilling. Listen to this, it's crazy.

• 42:45Speaker 03

  She was a doctor who, years before her daughter was even born, co-authored a paper about homicidal adolescents. So basically, kids who kill. And the paper was published in two thousand two, titled "The Violent and Homicidal Adolescents: Hearts Darkened Before Time."

• 43:04Speaker 00

  Oh my God, I got the chills.

• 43:06Speaker 03

  Right?

• 43:06Speaker 00

  Oh my God.

• 43:07Speaker 03

  And that book basically detailed patterns of violence and homicide amongst young people. And listen to this. One of the observations in that paper is that although most young homicide offenders were boys, the girls that killed were usually killing family members of their own.

• 43:26Speaker 00

  I just got really nauseous.

• 43:28Speaker 03

  Could you imagine that?

• 43:29Speaker 00

  I just got so sick to my stomach.

• 43:31Speaker 03

  But it kind of reminded me, you know how there's often, like, social workers or people in that field who then end up adopting or taking care of people that, you know, have come across in their experience of working? And so it's like, and then those people sometimes are troubled and end up hurting them. So, but I mean, still, kind of wild, because this was her actual daughter. So now investigators say, obviously, it's very ironic that she herself is now being killed by her own daughter. So all of these, so obviously, all of these three defendants are presumed innocent until proven guilty, but I think...

• 44:06Speaker 00

  The writing's on the wall.

• 44:07Speaker 03

  The writing's on the wall, so we'll, I'm sure, get more details.

• 44:10Speaker 00

  Are you familiar with the Jennifer Pan case?

• 44:12Speaker 03

  Yes, it reminds me very much of that.

• 44:15Speaker 00

  I think, I know we've covered it on this podcast, but I think there was a documentary on, I don't know, Peacock or Hulu or something over the last two years, where it came out, where she basically, like, enlisted the help or hired her boyfriend.

• 44:29Speaker 03

  A hitman?

• 44:29Speaker 00

  But I think it was...

• 44:30Speaker 03

  Was it with her boyfriend?

• 44:31Speaker 00

  I think it was her boyfriend.

• 44:32Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 44:32Speaker 00

  I don't know, the details are a little bit fuzzy, but she orchestrated the entire thing. And I think she was, like, lying about going to college.

• 44:39Speaker 03

  She was lying about her school and, like, accolades, and then her parents, like, found out or were starting to unravel?

• 44:45Speaker 00

  Or they, like, emailed the school or received any other, or something. And then she planned this whole thing, and then in the video, she's, like, acting distraught and, like, she has no idea. And it's just, like, diabolical that such young people, which I get it, she was, Brianna's eighteen, but like, still, you're a young adult, that they're capable of such evil. And I can't help but wonder, I know that it's been happening since the dawn of time, is it because people are being exposed to true crime, more mainstream media now, at a younger age, whether it's through documentaries, fiction, whatever it may be, Gone Girl, all of these things, to where there are some sort of, like, I don't know, subconscious

• 45:28Speaker 00

  influence or normalization, or to where they, like, I don't know?

• 45:34Speaker 03

  Sounds like, so it will be interesting to hear more about it. So I did read that the attorney for, I believe it was the boyfriend, see, the boyfriend of the roommate, I think it was the boyfriend, is trying to say that he's not competent to stand trial. So we'll see what all of that has to do with it. But she seems like she's obvious, I mean, she's eighteen, she's an adult, but she's also young, and she's in love with this guy, and she's afraid of his roommate.

• 46:02Speaker 00

  But is that bullshit? Was she just saying that to the officers? Like, or did he really threaten to kidnap her family?

• 46:08Speaker 03

  Because I'm just thinking, you're hanging out with the wrong people who are advising you to do this, and even putting that thought in your head, and you're eighteen, you can move out. Granted, I mean, you probably are there for whatever, financial reasons, whatever, but it's like, you legally can date whoever you want, live wherever you want, so... That seems like a more of a solution.

• 46:27Speaker 00

  I wonder if she was the driver in this and

• 46:30Speaker 03

  Or he was?

• 46:31Speaker 00

  Or if he was. Like, I know she mentioned that her parents wouldn't approve of their relationship because of the difference in race. So were they both equal parts in this? Was she the driver? I think it's pretty ironic, too, that in those text messages, he said, this has to be perfect when like, first of all, then don't text about it. Rule number one. But then also, like, you missed the misfired and didn't hit dad, thank God. But like, for wanting it to be so flawless and perfect, like, you really executed it awfully.

• 47:00Speaker 03

  Well, you're right. Maybe she was the person behind it all.

• 47:03Speaker 00

  I mean, it's all gonna show up in the text messages when the discovery comes out and what she said to him. And what, yeah, was she just, did he ever even say, I would have just killed her right then and there? Or was that a lie, too, to the police to make it so to deflect from her involvement or like her guilt in it?

• 47:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:19Speaker 00

  Ooh, I'm interested. We've got to FOIA this like ASAP.

• 47:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:23Speaker 00

  Okay. Um, okay, we've got to talk about the Lindsay Clancy case, trial updates this week and everything that has been going on. So finally, after five weeks of testimony, I think it was over 80 experts, several days of jury deliberations, we're finally starting to wrap up all things Lindsay Clancy. However, earlier this week, there was a wrench thrown in. So jury deliberations first began last week. I think some people were hopeful that they would reach a verdict by the end of the week. But then they were sent home, obviously, for the weekend because they're not sequestered, resumed on Monday. They asked the judge to go home early on Monday, which a lot of people were like, why are they asking to go home?

• 48:04Speaker 00

  Reddington said it was because they were just exhausted, that it obviously is very emotional, everything that they're having to weigh and review and do all of these things. But then some people were like, well, is it because they're at an impasse? And they just want to go home for the day? Like, what's going on? Then, sure enough, on Tuesday morning, the jurors came back and said that they were unable to reach a unanimous verdict. And here's where it got a little complicated when I first heard this immediately. First, I wasn't really even surprised. I, I have thought that she would be found not guilty by reason of insanity. But, and I thought that from the beginning. However, once they had the charge conference, and once the jury was read the instructions of all of the verdicts they could find,

• 48:46Speaker 00

  I started to think, oh, there is a very real possibility that there could be a hung jury here because there's five different options that they can choose from. Straight, not guilty, which is un, at first, everybody's like, that's very unlikely, but still possible. Not guilty by reason of insanity, guilty of first degree murder, guilty of second degree murder. And then the judge also brought in guilty of manslaughter, a lesser charge. And they have to find a verdict for all three of the children. So if, so to reach a unanimous verdict, when you have five different options and three different charges, and there might actually be a caveat out there.

• 49:22Speaker 03

  So it could be a different charge for each.

• 49:23Speaker 00

  It's like 15 options, basically, right? In total. So it's like, to have everybody unanimously agree on that, when there was a lack of investigation, where Reddington harped on that in his closing, when obviously, they shouldn't be watching social media, but I, I'd be hard pressed to think that they have not seen anything online. But I think that it opens the door to a hung jury. However, very similarly to Karen Reed's first trial, they came back saying, we can't reach a unanimous verdict. And the judge sent them back multiple times. And she's like, you have to. And then it ended up resulting in a mistrial.

• 50:00Speaker 03

  Well, how do you feel about that?

• 50:01Speaker 00

  Well, okay, here's what I think. I think if the judge forces you to go back and continue deliberating, first, I'd be like, okay, is there one holdout, two, or is it truly split? But then, once the, if they did come back then with a unanimous verdict, as a defense attorney, if it wasn't in my favor, not that it would give you more grounds for an appeal, but like, I'd want to survey the jurors. I'd want to maybe use that as an argument, like, they couldn't figure it out. You forced them to make a decision. So like, I think it gets a little murky there. But when we heard this on Tuesday, my first thought was like, oh, this is gonna be a Karen Reed situation again. And we don't know how many holdouts there are right now. So I wasn't sure, like, will they come back quickly with a unanimous verdict?

• 50:42Speaker 00

  Because they just want to get the hell out of there. So one person will cave, or is it truly split? Like, who really knows? But then my thought was, if it's a hung jury and it ends in a mistrial, will the state retry her? Because technically, they don't have to. More than likely, if there's three homicides, they would retry her. However, they don't have to. So based on what the prosecution has been seeing in all of this, not saying that TikTok is gonna influence their decision one way or another, but they would have to make the decision, are we gonna retry her? Do we think we can win? Based on now, the spotlight on the lack of investigation, lack of evidence. Um, if Reddington now changes strategy, because it's, you can't even consider the first trial anymore.

• 51:27Speaker 00

  So he could technically change his whole strategy to either bring in a third party alternative suspect, but he has to have evidence indicating that, or just harp on, she's not criminally responsible, there was no investigation, these injuries don't align, this and that, like, he, because now they would be seeing everything that's out there. And again, not saying they're gonna hinge their decision on TikTok or anything like that. But with a mistrial, it opens the doors to, maybe there's not going to be another trial. Maybe they will retry her, but like, then what are the new arguments going to be? And what are the strengths and the weaknesses that the other sides can exploit and like leverage and all of those things?

• 52:03Speaker 03

  If there is a mistrial in these types of situations, then she would just go free?

• 52:09Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 52:09Speaker 03

  Which arguably, even if somebody wanted that for her, it's like, what kind of quality of life for this poor woman? Who like, she probably needs a lot of care.

• 52:19Speaker 00

  Yes. It's interesting you say, poor woman, because I agree, I have been of the thought that she was suffering from postpartum psychosis since day one. I have seen now, it's so weird watching the evolution of all of this. Back in 2023, when it first happened, everybody's like, premeditated, she's an evil monster, you know, throw the book at her, death penalty. Then, as we started getting closer to trial, people started opening their minds up to postpartum psychosis, saying Lindsay's a victim and more allyship with her in that regard. Then the trial happened. And then, as we know, everybody said, oh, Lindsay didn't even do this. It was all Patrick. Now, as we're in, as jury deliberations started, and even a few days before that,

• 53:01Speaker 00

  I am seeing such a huge uptick, almost full circle, of it back to, this is premeditated, she's evil, she needs to be found guilty of first degree murder. And it's so weird watching everything come full circle. And so.

• 53:14Speaker 03

  I mean, guilty or not, I just mean, this poor woman, like, she's lost her three children.

• 53:20Speaker 00

  She's gonna be in hell for the rest of her life.

• 53:21Speaker 03

  Exactly. Because it's her fault.

• 53:23Speaker 00

  Right. Regardless of how it happened.

• 53:25Speaker 03

  Like, she's paralyzed.

• 53:27Speaker 00

  Paralyzed. Her life is destroyed. Absolutely. So that all happened Tuesday. And then ultimately, just like the Karen Reed trial, the judge sent them back and said, you need to keep deliberating. This has been a five-week trial. We have gone through so much, like, we're not gonna just throw in the towel, go back, keep deliberating. Then on Tuesday night, there was a little bit of commotion at the courthouse. A woman ended up being arrested for witness intimidation, potential jury tampering. She was reportedly videotaping some of the jurors. And so she ended up being arrested. She was in court on Wednesday. And her next court date is in October. But that resulted in, first thing on Wednesday morning,

• 54:06Speaker 00

  the judge asked each juror individually under voir dire, basically, like, do they know what happened with this woman? Or were they affected? Not an open-ended question, but a yes or a no. Seemingly, they all answered no, so they were sent back in for deliberations. Then, around 11:15 AM on Wednesday, the jury, it was announced that the jury had a question. So the judge came back in the courtroom, everybody came in the courtroom, but it wasn't a question, it was a statement. And it was that they are still deadlocked. So this is now the second time that they were deadlocked. And what's interesting is, at this point, a lot of people may think, okay, it's a mistrial. However, with the state of Massachusetts, there is something called a Tui Rodriguez rule that you read in.

• 54:51Speaker 00

  And the judge basically issued that to the jurors, where it tells, he tells them, you have to go back, you have to continue deliberating. However, under this specific rule and instruction, you, I want you to really consider your point of view in all of this, your position in what you believe the verdict should be, listen to your fellow jurors as well. Like, you know, reexamine their, your position, listen carefully to the reasoning of the other jurors. Consider whether your doubt or your conclusion is reasonable when other equally honest jurors are obviously disagreeing, since there is disagreement in that room, and continue pushing and trying to reach a unanimous verdict.

• 55:34Speaker 00

  So he sent them back to continue deliberating. We don't know what the split is. If there's one person holding out, two people holding out, or what's going on in that room. However, we know there are nine women jurors and three male jurors. So you also, like I said earlier, you have five options for each charge. It, it leaves a lot of room for there to be different and varying opinions. And there's maybe a woman who either sympathizes with Lindsay or hates Lindsay because she's a mother herself and can't wrap her head around it. There could be a man who doesn't believe in anything postpartum psychosis related. I mean, you don't know at all what's going through their minds. And we also don't know the split at this moment of how many are disagreeing and how close they are to a verdict.

• 56:19Speaker 00

  But at this point, at the time of this recording, we don't know. I will obviously keep you updated. Most likely, since we won't have another episode till Monday, it'll be via Instagram. That's where I've been doing a lot of my updates. At underscore Annie Elise or True Crime with Annie. I have two accounts. So check in there. And maybe some news is already happening right now on Thursday, so I'm over there, probably rapid fire uploading. But curious to know your thoughts. Is this gonna end with a hung jury and a mistrial? And then, will there be another trial in the future? I think probably yes, since three children were killed and it's a homicide. But at the same time, I don't know what is going through the state's mind.

• 57:00Speaker 03

  The whole thing is just wild. So. I mean, this was one case that I feel like people who are not even into true crime.

• 57:08Speaker 00

  Oh, it's polarizing.

• 57:09Speaker 03

  Invested at gate, sorry, invested. And every single time I've gone anywhere in the last couple weeks, I feel like it's the first thing people ask me about.

• 57:17Speaker 00

  100%. I was literally at my kids', like, beginning school playdate that they had, and the amount of people who said, who came up to me like, I need to know your thoughts on

• 57:26Speaker 03

  And men and women.

• 57:27Speaker 00

  I know. It's, I know. It's been an interesting one. Now, another interesting one that I know I briefly mentioned at the top of this episode that has gotten so much attention is Mica Miller's case. I don't know how familiar you are. Did you watch Death of the Pastor's Wife?

• 57:40Speaker 03

  I'm very familiar with the case, but I haven't watched it, but I'm going to.

• 57:42Speaker 00

  Okay. Well, I did a deep dive this week. It's out right now. You can go listen to it. What I did not like is that Netflix did a great job covering it. They left out so much of what went on during the relationship between Mica and JP. I'm talking multiple 911 calls, text messages, history, more in-depth conversation about how he, in my opinion, groomed her from a young age and when their relationship first began. And so I did a deep dive Tuesday, exposing all of that, because you know, I always do my follow-ups and say, well, here's what Netflix missed. So that's on my second true crime podcast feed, 10 to life. I would say that one for YouTube, we did have to censor quite a bit because of

• 58:25Speaker 00

  the nature of the content and the underage elements of everything and all of that. So if you want the uncensored version, listen audio on the podcast, or if you are a video watcher through and through, and you want the uncensored version, go to Patreon, because we always upload the uncensored videos on Patreon and completely ad-free as well. But that case is wild. So exposed all of that this week. So you have homework right now. Your homework, if you're listening, is to go listen to the Philadelphia House of Horrors serial killer Eugene Horsch from Monday, the Mica Miller, what they left out Netflix from Netflix on Tuesday, and then watch, uh, the Death of the Pastor's Wife if you

• 59:09Speaker 00

  haven't yet. And your homework, O'Brien, and I want you to look at me in the eyes. Okay. Here is your homework.

• 59:16Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 59:17Speaker 00

  You're gonna watch that on Netflix. You're gonna go to the park. You're gonna get that frisbee, and you are gonna throw it as far as you fucking can.

• 59:26Speaker 03

  I got it. I'll do it.

• 59:28Speaker 00

  I got it. I got this.

• 59:29Speaker 03

  I'll do it.

• 59:29Speaker 00

  That's like Emmy, I got this.

• 59:31Speaker 03

  I got this.

• 59:31Speaker 00

  I know. And she's doing so well.

• 59:34Speaker 03

  I know.

• 59:34Speaker 00

  We have to talk after this. Her first day at big kid's school and with her rolly suitcase. I just like.

• 59:39Speaker 03

  The picture is just, oh.

• 59:41Speaker 00

  She looks like an eighth grader compared to her classmates, because she's so, like, tall and big.

• 59:45Speaker 03

  Little gal.

• 59:45Speaker 00

  I know. Um, all right. That is it for today's episode of Headline Highlights, guys. Thank you so much for listening. Be back with you next week. Be back with you Monday, actually, with an all-new deep dive into a case. But go back, listen to those deep dives, watch those deep dives now, um, from earlier this week, and we will talk with you very soon. Until the next one, just get a divorce, be nice, don't kill people. I'm gonna add a third tagline in, don't kill your family.

• 1:00:11Speaker 03

  Don't listen to your boyfriend's terrible advice.

• 1:00:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, that too. And just stay safe.

• 1:00:16Speaker 03

  Stay safe.

• 1:00:17Speaker 00

  All right. Bye.

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