311: David Miscavige’s Niece Jenna Joins to Talk About Her Escape & His Dark Secrets

This week on Serialously with Annie Elise, special guest Jenna Miscavige steps into the studio to share her extraordinary and deeply personal story. Born into Scientology and raised in an environment of secrecy, fear, and control, Jenna offers a rare inside look at life within one of the most controversial organizations in the world. As the niece of Scientology’s leader, David Miscavige, her perspective is unlike any other, revealing what it was really like growing up in the shadow of power, and what ultimately led her to break free. In this powerful and eye-opening conversation, Jenna opens up to Annie about her childhood in the church, the tactics used to maintain loyalty, and the courage it took to reclaim her life. This is an interview you won’t want to miss…Jenna’s Book: https://amzn.to/4mrNoQaJenna’s YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@JennaMiscavige Jenna’s TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jennamiscavige?_t=ZP-8z4u7zvu2H9&_r=1🔎Join Our True Crime Club & Get Exclusive Content & Perks 🔎 Join The Club: https://www.patreon.com/annieelise🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to EXTRA deep dive episodes every week on Apple!https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/serialously-with-annie-elise/id1519456164🚩Announcements🚩Want to Catch Annie LIVE on Tour? 🎤 🎟Grab your tickets now for a city near you: https://annieelise.com/pages/tour🌸MERCH IS OFFICIALLY HERE! 🌸Shop now at https://annieelise.com/collections/shop-allDon't miss out before your faves sell out! 🛒🌷Follow Annie on Socials 📸 🩷Instagram: @ _annieelise, https://www.instagram.com/_annieelise/?hl=en💜TikTok: @_annieelise, https://www.tiktok.com/@_annieelise?lang=en🗞️ Substack: @annieelise, https://substack.com/@annieelise💙Facebook: @10tolife, https://www.facebook.com/10toLIFE⭐️Sponsors ⭐️Quince: Go to http://quince.com/ae to get free shipping and 365-day returns on your next order. Function Health: To learn more and get started, visit http://www.functionhealth.com/AE. Shop Annie’s Closet & Must-Haves! 👗Poshmark: https://posh.mk/Tdbki6Ae0RbShopMY: https://shopmy.us/annieeliseAmazon: https://www.amazon.com/shop/10tolife?ref_=cm_sw_r_apin_aipsfshop_BKN1ZMCMEZHACVFQ2R75&language=en_USDisclaimer ‣ Some links may be affiliate links, they do not cost you anything, but I make a small percentage from the sale. Thank you so much for watching and supporting me.🎙️ Follow the podcast for FREE on all podcast platforms! Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/serialously-with-annie-elise/id1519456164Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6HdheEH8WeMTHoe5da34qUAll Other Platforms: https://audioboom.com/channels/5100770-serialously-with-annie-eliseGet Involved or Recommend the Case 💬 About Annie: https://annieelise.com/For Business Inquiries: [email protected]*Sources used to collect this information include various public news sites, interviews, court documents, FB groups dedicated to the case, and various news channel segments. When quoting statements made by others, they are strictly alleged until confirmed otherwise. Please remember my videos are my independent opinion and to always do your own research. ••••••••••••••••••Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this video are personal and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organization, employer, or company. Assumptions made in the analysis are not reflective of the position of any entity other than the creator(s). These views are subject to change, revision, and rethinking at any time and are not to be held in perpetuity. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, correctness, suitability, or validity of any information on this video and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use. All information is provided on an as-is basis. It is the reader’s responsibility to verify their own facts.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Annie Elise?

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• 0:27Speaker 01

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• 0:59Speaker 02

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• 1:27Speaker 03

  Over the years, we've heard a lot about the Church of Scientology. Jenna Miscavige Hill spent more than 20 years in the church with her uncle. Well, thank you very much.

• 1:37Speaker 04

  As a child, I was only allowed to see my parents for a few hours once a week. There's not an exact criteria for evil, but I would definitely say, you know, somebody who makes rules that thousands and thousands of people can't have children and runs a church where there's child labor, forced and coerced abortions, if that's not evil, then what is, you know?

• 2:01Annie Elise?

  Hey, true crime besties. Welcome back to an all-new episode of Serial Asleep.

• 2:23Annie Elise?

  Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back to an all-new episode of Serialistly with me, your host, Annie Elise. And guys, today, we have got a very special episode, a very important episode. For those of you who have been listening to my podcast for a while, you know I'm really fascinated with cults. Like, I want to know how they operate, how they tick, how they recruit, the mentality behind it. And I've done a lot of deep dives into cults, too, over the years, whether it's FLDS, maybe a different one, maybe drinking the Kool-Aid, Scientology, all the different ones. And Scientology is one that we have talked about a few times on here.

• 3:06Annie Elise?

  And we've talked a lot about David Miscavige, the leader of Scientology. And today, I am actually going to be joined by Jenna Miscavige, here in studio, David's niece. Now, she was in Scientology since she was a very young age, and she is going to be sharing with me all about her experience in Scientology, how she escaped Scientology, David and his secrets, and what he does behind closed doors. Also, if David truly believes that Scientology is powerful, and he's aligned with its belief system, or if he, in fact, knows it's a cult. We also, of course, are going to touch on Shelley Miscavige. Where's Shelley? Nobody has seen

• 3:50Annie Elise?

  or heard from her in years. Is that true or not? Was she complicit? What does she know? What was her involvement? Jenna's going to tell us everything. And she's also going to talk to us about the darkness behind Scientology. And I think we're all aware of the darkness, and how they prey on people, and exploit them, and use them. But it goes even darker and deeper, more than I ever knew, to be quite honest. And so, she's here in studio. She is going to break it all down for you. We're going to talk through it all. And I'm just really excited to have her here, because I think it is such an important topic, and something that needs to have a light on it as much as possible. Hi Jenna, thank you so much for joining me today.

• 4:34Annie Elise?

  I am really excited to have you here, because, as I mentioned already in the intro, I've been fascinated with Scientology for years and it's something that I personally have been investigating, researching. I try to be very careful when I am, but when I came across your TikToks and how outspoken and brave you are and just the powerful statements that you are making, I just wanted to hear more and learn more from you and just have your personal experience. So, thank you so much for joining today, truly.

• 5:03Speaker 04

  Of course. Thank you for having me.

• 5:05Annie Elise?

  Of course. It's my pleasure. So, what I would love to start with is just a little bit, I guess, about your background. At what age were you introduced to Scientology? How did it all come about within your family?

• 5:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, so my, I was born and raised in Scientology. So, my parents were already Scientologists by the time I was born. And when, just before I was two years old, they joined Scientology's most dedicated organization, or most dedicated like group inside of it. It's called the C org. And basically, you sign one billion year contracts, promising your soul lifetime after lifetime of servitude to Scientology. You are not allowed to have kids, although they had already, like, that rule came shortly after they joined.

• 5:49Annie Elise?

  Oh, okay.

• 5:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, so from that time forward, no C org members were allowed to have kids.

• 5:55Annie Elise?

  Did they ever have any more kids or no?

• 5:56Speaker 04

  No.

• 5:57Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 5:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. And basically, you work like fifteen hour days, seven days a week for Scientology. You have little or no time off. You live communally, everyone eats together, and you basically get paid fifty dollars a week and...

• 6:14Annie Elise?

  Fifty dollars a week at fifteen hours a day?

• 6:16Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 6:17Annie Elise?

  What, I, I need to like, figure out what that math even computes to. Have you done the breakdown of that? I mean, pennies, but...

• 6:24Speaker 04

  Right, yeah, yeah. I mean, in the end, like Scientology is paying for where you live and where you eat, but usually it's like stacked up, like in dorm rooms stacked with bunk beds this high. Although, when you're married, you get like, like you share an apartment with another couple. But, and they're paying for your food, but also you're paying for all of your laundry, all of your toiletries, all of your feminine hygiene products, you're paying for... Everything else, so.

• 6:53Annie Elise?

  Even so, room and board, I mean, that doesn't equate to 15-hour days, full-time, and then getting the extra $50 a week. So you've mentioned, Britt, really quickly, I want to talk back about the dorms and how it's stacked with bunk beds even before marriage. So what is that like? How many people to a room could there be?

• 7:15Speaker 04

  So for instance, like when I went to a Scientology boarding school, and boarding school is like a very loose term here, but I was in a dorm with seven other girls, and then we had one bathroom, which was connected to another dorm with seven other girls.

• 7:30Annie Elise?

  Wow.

• 7:31Speaker 04

  So like, we were all using the same bathroom. We all had to shower every day, and it was like a scramble, if not impossible, to be hygienic as kids and get everything done you were supposed to get done.

• 7:45Annie Elise?

  What age did you start boarding school?

• 7:47Speaker 04

  So that started when I was six years old.

• 7:50Annie Elise?

  And you, so you were pulled, were you pulled away from your parents and put into this boarding school with just peers? Or how did that work?

• 7:56Speaker 04

  Well, the truth is that when my parents joined this, this CIR organization, it was in Los Angeles, and for like, a year or so, like, they were there with me, and I, like, we, like, me and my brothers lived in the living room on bunk beds. But then, they went, my dad went to the secretive international management base for Scientology, and my mom was doing other projects for Scientology. So I only saw them for a few hours once a week.

• 8:26Annie Elise?

  Wow. That's so tough as such a young girl.

• 8:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I would be in like Scientology nurseries during the day with a bunch of other Scientology kids. And then when I was six, there was basically a boarding school that was at Scientology's international management base.

• 8:42Annie Elise?

  And where's that located?

• 8:43Speaker 04

  It's in Hemet.

• 8:44Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 8:44Speaker 04

  Yeah. And so the boarding school was about 20 minutes away. It was at the back of an Indian reservation, and it was a couple of acres, and... There wound up being like eighty to a hundred kids there. And we would be there all week and then we would see our parents for like a couple hours on Saturday evening and Sunday morning and then we would go back.

• 9:08Annie Elise?

  And so, I mean, I'm just, my mind is kind of blown right now as you're saying that because I've, of course, I'm familiar with the C org. I have heard about the boarding schools, but now just thinking through that at such a young age, six, seven years old, which is incredibly young, going to sleep without your parents and waking up without them. That has to be incredibly difficult and challenging, but I also suppose the argument could be you didn't know any different at that point. Is that fair to say?

• 9:34Speaker 04

  That's very fair to say, yeah. The truth is that I never lived in a home with my parents. And even though you're right, like I didn't know what I was missing and also that was happening to all the other kids around me. So it wasn't like, oh, this is odd what's happening to me. At the same time, there's still that, you know, basic biological drive where I always wanted to be with my parents.

• 9:55Annie Elise?

  Of course.

• 9:55Speaker 04

  And I always, like, everything I was doing, even trying to be good in school was so that I could somehow work at this base with them so that I could see them every day. That was my personal goal. And then now as a mom myself, you know, obviously it's very different with my own kids. Now it puts it in a more stark perspective.

• 10:16Annie Elise?

  Absolutely. I would imagine it's almost kind of reliving your childhood, giving them the childhood you wish that you had in a sense.

• 10:23Speaker 04

  Right, yeah, and actually really understanding what I missed.

• 10:27Annie Elise?

  Yeah, absolutely. Now, going back to what you had just, you made a comment saying that you wanted to do really well in school and you wanted to make people happy so that you could then one day work at the same organization with your family. Was there a certain requirement where you had to hit certain milestones or have a certain performance at these boarding schools in order to then be either accepted or invited to the C org?

• 10:50Speaker 04

  Yes, so how the boarding school was looked at is that we were called cadets, where we were considered C ORG members in training.

• 10:57Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 10:58Speaker 04

  And so we had certain, a certain curriculum that we had to complete. A little bit of it was schooling and a little bit of it was Scientology studies. And so if you finish this early, then, earlier, then you could go work at the base earlier. I remember my Aunt Shelley would always tell me how she worked in the C ORG as a nine-year-old, and how I was sort of like lagging behind because I wasn't already there.

• 11:21Annie Elise?

  And that's, but, correct me if I'm wrong, when you get to the C ORG, that's hard labor that you're then required to do?

• 11:26Speaker 04

  Super ironically, what we were required to do at the boarding school was legitimately hard labor.

• 11:32Annie Elise?

  What kind of things?

• 11:33Speaker 04

  Like digging trenches, hauling rocks. I mean, we woke up at 6:30 in the morning and immediately we were put to work. Our jobs were to maintain the grounds. They would have to get inspected after like, we planted a bunch of trees, after we filled planters with gravel, we planted cactus, we mowed the huge sports field, and we like shoveled horse poop, and that sort of thing. Like, we just had all sorts of landscaping-type duties around the ranch that we would pretty much do right after we woke up, until school time, which wasn't until the afternoon. And then, you know, once a week on Saturday, we would be required to basically

• 12:15Speaker 04

  white-glove clean the entire ranch, which just meant cleaning so well that it had to pass inspection with somebody with a white glove.

• 12:24Annie Elise?

  And who was usually doing that inspection?

• 12:26Speaker 04

  There was a couple of adults at the ranch.

• 12:28Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 12:28Speaker 04

  But bizarrely enough, like, the kids were, we had our own organizational structure, where we had seven divisions. Each division had three departments.

• 12:39Annie Elise?

  Wow.

• 12:39Speaker 04

  Each division had a head. We would have these like gatherings called muster, I guess that's a military word, but for me, it's a Scientology word. And they would be like, "Unit one, report." And be like, "All present and accounted for, sir." And then we would do like, close-order military drilling, like, "Left face, right face." And we would get, um, our uniforms inspected every day. We wore uniforms.

• 13:01Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:01Speaker 04

  And we would get our, our dorms inspected every day for cleanliness, so it was like... Even though we were kids and there were adults there overseeing us, it was like we were running ourselves.

• 13:12Annie Elise?

  Wow, that must have forced you to mature at a very young age and just become an adult. And like we just said, not even have a childhood. I'm curious, what was the ratio like, if you can remember, of hard labor in the mornings and school time? Like, what was that split like? Were you doing more hard labor than actually getting education, even though the education was, of course, Scientology-based?

• 13:34Speaker 04

  That's a great question. So, basically, all morning until about like 2:00 in the afternoon, we did like the hard labor. I mean, we also had breakfast and lunch, but even like after breakfast and lunch, like we would be mopping and cleaning the floors, doing the dishes, all of that stuff, like doing laundry. And so then after lunch is when we would start our schooling until dinnertime. But after dinner, we would be doing Scientology studies. So the schooling was really after lunch until dinnertime.

• 14:06Annie Elise?

  So a few hours of like traditional education, call it maybe 2:00 to 5:00 or 2:00 to 6:00 PM?

• 14:12Speaker 04

  Yes, except it wasn't traditional education. It was kids from like 6 years old to 16 years old, all in the same classroom. And there wasn't, there was no grades. And basically, there wasn't a teacher who would teach us things. They weren't allowed to explain anything. We all had these little checklists, which were basically like, read this, demonstrate this.

• 14:34Annie Elise?

  Not actual curriculum?

• 14:37Speaker 04

  Well, it was like step by step what we had to do, but it was never a teacher teaching us. And so it was run like a Scientology course room, where they would, like, they had an E-meter there, we would have to be attached to the E-meter.

• 14:52Annie Elise?

  Can you explain to everybody listening what the E-meter is?

• 14:54Speaker 04

  Sorry.

• 14:55Annie Elise?

  No, no, no, that's fine. I feel like I know a lot of these terms, but for those who are a little bit unfamiliar.

• 15:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. I have one actually at home. I went on my way up, I was like, dang, I should have brought that.

• 15:06Annie Elise?

  Please text me a photo of it.

• 15:07Speaker 04

  Okay, I will, for sure. So an E-meter is basically like kind of Scientology's version of a lie detector. It's this device, it has a dial on it. You hold two like metal cans that are attached to the E-meter. It puts like a small electrical current through your body. And in Scientology, they believe that your mind influences this current. And that influence shows up on the dial of the E-meter. So they basically ask you questions. And depending on how the needle reacts. Scientology interprets it to mean yes or no, you're lying or you're not.

• 15:42Annie Elise?

  And am I correct when I say those are, those sessions are called auditing sessions? Is that right?

• 15:48Speaker 04

  That's correct. Those sessions are called auditing sessions. But they also use the E-meter outside of auditing sessions. Like in a normal like school classroom, like Scientology has this obsession with making sure you don't go past any words you don't understand. They kind of believe that it's like the root of all evil. And so in the schooling scenario, they ask us if we have gone by any words we don't understand the meaning of. And they ask it on the E-meter. Yeah.

• 16:15Annie Elise?

  So can you give me an example of that? Like what they may ask like, or a word?

• 16:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. So they basically say, in your recent studies, have you encountered any word or symbol you didn't fully understand? And then they look at the E-meter. And depending on how it reacts, they say, great, go back to your studies. And if, if it has like a read on the E-meter, they say, go back to your first course, the beginning of your course and find a word, make a list of all the words you don't understand. Look them up in a dictionary.

• 16:47Annie Elise?

  And like try again.

• 16:48Speaker 04

  Exactly, yeah. But you kind of have to go back to the beginning of your course. So it sucks if you fail. And also, it's in front of the whole classroom.

• 16:56Annie Elise?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 16:56Speaker 04

  And so it's embarrassing. Like that was my terror when I was a kid. So embarrassing.

• 17:03Annie Elise?

  Yeah, it's humiliating.

• 17:05Speaker 04

  Yeah. And so you would, I would have these like little strategies, which basically occupied all of my schooling time. I would like. I would have a dictionary open and like pretending like I was looking up a word. Because if you're looking up a word, then they can't do a meter check on you. Because

• 17:21Annie Elise?

  But in reality, the meter check isn't even accurate because it's just a current going through your body. So it's like whether you know the word or not, it's kind of a fifty fifty chance of what's going to show up on the system, right?

• 17:31Speaker 04

  Right, yes, totally. But it was more like I could avoid even being brought to the station. If they knew I was already looking up words and like they would have things. I feel like I'm getting into the weeds. You can tell me.

• 17:42Annie Elise?

  No, no, no, this is great.

• 17:44Speaker 04

  But they, we would have like word chains. Like if you look up a word and then there's a word in the word you don't understand. You have to open another dictionary and look up that word. So I was basically always putting on a show.

• 17:53Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 17:54Speaker 04

  Of being in a word chain.

• 17:56Annie Elise?

  Wow.

• 17:56Speaker 04

  So that I could avoid.

• 17:57Annie Elise?

  To avoid.

• 17:58Speaker 04

  Embarrassment.

• 17:59Annie Elise?

  Yeah, of course.

• 18:00Speaker 04

  And so it, it wasn't very productive way of going about my schooling.

• 18:05Annie Elise?

  It's interesting because you say how you did that to avoid the embarrassment. And when you are tested and it's in front of the class. And you also, a few minutes ago, had mentioned that your Aunt Shelley used to give you a hard time saying that she was in the Sea Org at nine years old. You're not trying hard enough. And so I want to just pivot for a moment. And ask you how involved while you were in this boarding school and a cadet and doing the training. Was your Aunt Shelley and your Uncle David in your life?

• 18:33Speaker 04

  So my Aunt Shelley would write me regularly, like she sent me a bunch of letter or a bunch of stationery. So that I could write her because I think that she was saying she wanted me to write her and then I wasn't. I, I used the excuse that I didn't have stationery. So she sent me a bunch. So I would write her regularly. They would send me birthday presents and Christmas presents and all of that. And occasionally us kids were brought into the, where the base where our parents worked. Where we would work in like the galley where they made all the food. Or occasionally we would do a Scientology course there. And so when I was there, like sometimes my uncle would come get me on his motorcycle and bring me to his office. And usually I would wind up talking to Shelley, like he was around, but she was like a woman.

• 19:18Speaker 04

  And I, I, my opinion is that she didn't have any kids of her own. And so she's sort of like. I I was sort of her outlet for that.

• 19:28Annie Elise?

  Yeah, I think that makes sense.

• 19:30Speaker 04

  At the time. So they weren't part of my daily life because I was at the ranch the entire time. But, you know, at Christmas time, um, you know, when we had a day off, it was spent.

• 19:40Annie Elise?

  You only had one day off.

• 19:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 19:42Annie Elise?

  Christmas Day.

• 19:43Speaker 04

  Yeah. Or there would be like a big celebration the night before, but then we would have Christmas Day off. And so I would spend it with them, with my parents.

• 19:52Annie Elise?

  Well, that was actually going to be one of my questions, and please excuse me if this is so naive and ignorant of me. But do you celebrate traditional holidays? Like, would your whole family get together for Thanksgiving? I know you just mentioned Christmas for anything like that, or does that go against Scientology beliefs?

• 20:09Speaker 04

  It doesn't go against Scientology beliefs. I feel like it's like I'm I'm not religious right now, but I still celebrate Christmas. But things weren't really family affairs, like at Thanksgiving at the Sea Org Base, they would have a Thanksgiving meal. And so we would all celebrate it together. Or like at Christmas time, the the night before Christmas, there would be like a base-wide celebration um, all together. And then um, on Christmas Day, there would be like, I guess, different groups from different, because there was always different factions of who was in what group, would hang out together. I, just by default, my parents were executives and they would hang out with my aunt and uncle.

• 20:54Speaker 04

  And so I was part of that, but it was still considered like a Scientology activity more than it was considered a family activity.

• 21:01Annie Elise?

  Were Christmas gifts a thing?

• 21:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:03Annie Elise?

  Yeah, okay. Christmas tree, all things. Okay.

• 21:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:07Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 21:07Speaker 04

  Yeah. But like, I didn't have a home where there was a Christmas tree.

• 21:10Annie Elise?

  It wasn't like nesting with the stockings and the home. It was more of like, you go to a place, you have the meal, you celebrate together, and then that's, and then it ends.

• 21:19Speaker 04

  Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Or we would like have the Kris Kringle Secret Santa thing. But we all like, well, I, as a kid, I only made five dollars a week, but like, they only made fifty dollars a week. So you'd have to like buy gum from the canteen or something, and that would be. Like the daily gifts, but.

• 21:34Annie Elise?

  Now, speaking of that, I want, I want to move into you, how you progressed out of the boarding school and what was next, but really quick, just going back to the pay thing really quick. Is it your opinion that the pay was structured that way to keep people in debt and keep them stuck there? Or why do you think the pay was so little? And is it still that amount to this day?

• 21:56Speaker 04

  I, everything I know of from people who have left more recently, it is still that amount to this day.

• 22:01Annie Elise?

  Wow.

• 22:02Speaker 04

  And the, the truth is that I think about different aspects of Scientology so many years later that I feel like I actually haven't even gotten around to thinking, is this, is that why this pay is structured in this way? But I was actually doing a new TikTok for today and I talked briefly about elderly people who work their entire life in the C org and they don't have any savings. They don't have a pension. They have no retirement. So they're basically just screwed. And you can't have those things if you're living on $50 a week.

• 22:35Annie Elise?

  No.

• 22:36Speaker 04

  And so even just today, like it's, even though I've been gone for quite a while, it's still like, the more I progress through my life, the more I see how things were when I was there, the more, like the more I am a mom, the longer I'm a mom to my kids of different ages, I realize how messed up it was for me.

• 22:56Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 22:56Speaker 04

  So.

• 22:57Annie Elise?

  Absolutely.

• 22:57Speaker 04

  So I actually think that that is a very good point. Like, of course, that's how you keep people there.

• 23:02Annie Elise?

  Yeah. Well, that's interesting that you just mentioned about the point about pension and elderly people because I would, I'm curious too, what would happen if a C org member or any member was injured? Or did you ever go to the dentist growing up? How it was healthcare covered? What did that look like?

• 23:21Speaker 04

  So as far as a dentist, they did have an in-house dentist, but it was like one person for thousands of people. And you would have to get like the money approved in order to get the procedure. So they, there was a dentist, but it wasn't like everyone was in good health. There was only so much this one person could do. And as far as medical care. Scientology believes that Scientology can cure everything. They even believe that what's happening to you medically is because of a mental thing. But if something is an emergency, they will take you to the hospital where I guess it's like if you don't have insurance and if you make zero money, it's just free.

• 24:03Annie Elise?

  Yeah, they just they're forced to treat you up to an extent, I think, but.

• 24:07Speaker 04

  Exactly, yeah. So there was like one or two times where I went there and was like just waiting for hours and was like passing out in the hospital.

• 24:16Annie Elise?

  Oh my gosh.

• 24:17Speaker 04

  Um, yeah, so it's not like there's regular medical treatment. There is a medical liaison office, but what basically we mostly did there was if if you weren't feeling well, we would do Scientology assists, um, basically that are supposed to help you with your body. And that's how we thought that they would give you some vitamins and then we would do those assists. And that's how we thought we were healing each other.

• 24:42Annie Elise?

  Oh, my gosh. So walk me through then how if there was anything else like that you want to mention about boarding school and then what the next step in your journey was.

• 24:51Speaker 04

  Sure. I just want to ask you something, though. I just had a realization that. Okay, so we would do this thing called a touch assist, which was supposed to like help you heal, to help you be more in communication with your body. And I just realized that this is kind of a great place to demonstrate it, but also it would involve me touching you.

• 25:08Annie Elise?

  Let's do it.

• 25:09Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 25:09Annie Elise?

  Let's do it. Okay, a touch assist. Okay.

• 25:11Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 25:12Annie Elise?

  Do you know how close do I need to be to you?

• 25:13Speaker 04

  Well, um.

• 25:15Annie Elise?

  Sorry for anybody who's not watching the video version of it.

• 25:17Speaker 04

  Can I stand up?

• 25:18Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 25:18Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah, do you want me to stand? No, no, you. Okay.

• 25:23Annie Elise?

  Here, I'm going to move the mic so that it can pick up both voices.

• 25:25Speaker 04

  Sure. Okay, so close your eyes.

• 25:28Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 25:29Speaker 04

  And basically we go, feel my finger. Oh, no, just you feel it with like.

• 25:35Annie Elise?

  Oh, okay, okay, okay. I'm already failing.

• 25:38Speaker 04

  And you just say like, yes.

• 25:39Annie Elise?

  Yes.

• 25:40Speaker 04

  Okay, good. Feel my finger.

• 25:42Annie Elise?

  Yes.

• 25:43Speaker 04

  Thank you. Feel my finger.

• 25:45Annie Elise?

  Yes.

• 25:46Speaker 04

  Thank you. Feel my finger.

• 25:48Annie Elise?

  Yes.

• 25:49Speaker 04

  Thank you. Feel my finger.

• 25:51Annie Elise?

  Yes.

• 25:52Speaker 04

  Thank you. Feel my finger.

• 25:54Annie Elise?

  Yes.

• 25:55Speaker 04

  And basically like we just keep going all the way down to like each of your fingers and each of your toes, and that's what we would.

• 26:02Annie Elise?

  And what's the purpose of that?

• 26:05Speaker 04

  It's basically like we, like we believe that that would make your spirit be in better communication with your body.

• 26:13Annie Elise?

  Oh, and I would heal myself.

• 26:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, basically.

• 26:15Annie Elise?

  So am I healed right now, Jenna?

• 26:16Speaker 04

  Well, I would have to keep going, like sometimes for like a half an hour until you're supposed to have some like realization like, wow.

• 26:23Annie Elise?

  My headache's gone.

• 26:24Speaker 04

  Exactly. And at some point, you're just like, my headache's gone because I can't be doing this all day, you know?

• 26:29Annie Elise?

  Well, thank you for demonstrating that. That's really interesting. I'm gonna start doing that on my kids. Anytime they're like, I have a boo-boo, I'm like, touch us this time.

• 26:38Speaker 04

  You like wear them down, so they're like, okay, I feel better.

• 26:42Annie Elise?

  Mom, I just wanna watch Spidey and Friends, leave me the hell alone.

• 26:44Speaker 04

  That's pretty much how it was.

• 26:46Annie Elise?

  Oh, my gosh. Okay, so yeah, walk me through how that transition happened and kind of where things were at and what your day to day looked like through boarding school into the next phase.

• 26:57Speaker 04

  Okay, yeah. So the majority of the time I was at this boarding school at the ranch, my mom was positioned in Clearwater, Florida, where she basically was in charge of that, that whole base, which is Scientology's biggest like money-making base. People come, Scientologists come from all around the world to get highly trained there, and then they go back to their own churches, and it delivers some of the highest levels in Scientology. So she was responsible for like renovating church buildings and getting that sort of thing in place. And so there was a time or two that I went to visit her, and basically I was going from digging trenches, hauling rocks, and like being in this military-esque organization

• 27:42Speaker 04

  to where I lived with my mom in an apartment, but it like had a jacuzzi, like, like there was a teenage girl who was supposed to look after me, who worked for my mom, who would make her breakfast every morning. She would wake her up, and she would do her laundry, and you know, my mom would get like manicures, and she, like, there was a special executive chef, she would get this delicious food, and all I had to do was do a Scientology. Course all day and I would basically get all of this, these amazing perks. And it was like the greatest time of my life.

• 28:20Annie Elise?

  Of course, of course, compared to what you were doing in the hard labor. It's like, this is amazing.

• 28:26Speaker 04

  Exactly. Yes, exactly. That's exactly how it was. And so then when I went back to the ranch, I was like, it sucks here.

• 28:34Annie Elise?

  Yeah, I don't want to be here. Get me out.

• 28:36Speaker 04

  Yes. Yeah. And then they had made it so our training program was going to be longer to be at the ranch. And basically I was like, I want to go back to Clearwater. And so they sent me there, but my mom wasn't there. And then they basically like just put me in the Sea Org instead of getting this great treatment. And they were like, surprise, you're here now. And they basically just threw me in a dorm with like, at this point, it was like 10 other women.

• 29:03Annie Elise?

  And how old were you at this point?

• 29:05Speaker 04

  I was 12.

• 29:05Annie Elise?

  Wow.

• 29:06Speaker 04

  Yeah. So it was like a few months after I turned 12 and like, I remember getting there and my bed didn't even have sheets on it. Like I didn't know where to go. I was just told, okay, now you're in the Sea Org. Here's your uniform. Now, I always knew I was going to be joining the Sea Org, but I didn't expect it to be that sudden. Like I actually signed my billionaire contract when I was seven years old.

• 29:30Annie Elise?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 29:31Speaker 04

  Like recruiters came to the ranch and they had us all sign it. And it was like, of course I'm going to sign it. My parents are part of this. I'm not going anywhere else.

• 29:38Annie Elise?

  It's the norm. You're not even questioning it.

• 29:41Speaker 04

  Yeah. And I didn't play video games. I didn't have toys. I didn't watch TV. Like I had, I knew zero people who weren't Scientologists. Zero. I never saw them.

• 29:50Annie Elise?

  That was your world.

• 29:51Speaker 04

  Exactly. Yes. Yeah. And so I just didn't expect to be like thrust into this. And actually I realized I'm finally answering your, your other question, which is, while the Sea Org is very like regimented and hard, it's not the same level of manual labor that we did as kids.

• 30:13Annie Elise?

  That's interesting.

• 30:14Speaker 04

  So it was actually a little bit easier.

• 30:15Annie Elise?

  As you get older, which is so disgusting to think about.

• 30:18Speaker 04

  Right. For me, yeah. Some people just joined the Sea Org not having grown up in the Cadet Org or in the boarding school. So some people just go right into that and that's really hard for them. For me, it was like, It was a little bit easier, but still, yeah, there was more like, I don't know, like, politics and dynamics and that sort of thing.

• 30:40Annie Elise?

  Now, for someone who is, say, making it up, call them 20 years old, and they're just saying today, like, I want to become a Scientologist. I truly believe in it. I believe in everything they stand for. What would make someone decide or be told, either, okay, I'm a Scientologist, I'll go to, I'll go through Dianetics or all the programs and do all this, or I'm gonna go in the Sea Org? Is it a requirement? Is it a certain level of dedication? How does that split happen?

• 31:08Speaker 04

  It's, it's not a requirement, but it is considered like the highest level of dedication. And obviously, the more dedicated you are, the more praised you get. And also, as a Sea Org member, you, you get Scientology for free, although they don't give you much of it because you're not paying for it, but you are actually able to get Scientology for free. So maybe some people who can't fully afford paying for Scientology outside of working there, they might join staff or join the Sea Org.

• 31:37Annie Elise?

  So I think that's an interesting take, joining from like a financial perspective and benefit, but you also had said that it's the highest level of dedication. So I have to ask, why has Tom Cruise never been in the Sea Org?

• 31:51Speaker 04

  Right, exactly.

• 31:52Annie Elise?

  Isn't he like the, you know, picture-perfect Scientologist, so dedicated, like the poster boy?

• 31:58Speaker 04

  He is, yeah, but I think that Scientology, and he probably agrees, that he's more valuable to Scientology as being Tom Cruise.

• 32:08Annie Elise?

  As being like the Mission Impossible guy who never ages and does his own stunts. Have, did you ever meet Tom Cruise?

• 32:14Speaker 04

  No, I never met him.

• 32:15Annie Elise?

  No, no.

• 32:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:16Annie Elise?

  I, I want to talk all about the celebrity of it all here soon, but let's, yeah, okay.

• 32:19Speaker 04

  No worries.

• 32:19Annie Elise?

  Sorry, I'm going off the rails a little.

• 32:21Speaker 04

  No, no, that's okay. But in Scientology, like even when Tom Cruise was like going crazy, like jumping on couches and stuff, we just saw it as like, oh my God, he's spreading the word about Scientology. He's doing so great. What a great dedicated Scientologist he is. So I feel like Scientology thinks he's more valuable in that way. Because how many people have gotten into Scientology because they're like, well, Tom Cruise does it. It must be great.

• 32:44Annie Elise?

  Yeah, all the different celebrity endorsements throughout it.

• 32:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 32:48Annie Elise?

  So then, once you were at the Sea Org, Aside from just like the less labor that or the reduction in labor, I should say, from when you were at the camp or the boarding school.

• 32:59Speaker 04

  Right.

• 32:59Annie Elise?

  What what did that look like? Did you have to go through? I know you said Scientology education was free or it was made available at that point. So like, did you go through all the Dianetics? How much do all of those costs, the books? I know that that is like this whole financial animal in and of itself too. And you never really reach the top. You always get hit down different tiers. So what happened?

• 33:19Speaker 04

  Right, yeah. So first of all, I was no longer doing schooling daily. We only did school like a couple hours one day a week.

• 33:28Annie Elise?

  Starting at 12 years old.

• 33:29Speaker 04

  Yes, starting at 12 years old until I was 16 years old. After I was 16, no more schooling at all. And again, it wasn't grade levels. Nothing was like, like no diploma for all of the kids who were there working in the Sea Org. It's not just me. And then um my schedule sort of became like at least at the boarding school, you know, our our studies would end at nine o'clock. We would go to bed at nine thirty. Well, instead here it was more like closer to midnight, 11:30 midnight when we would go home. And I was I was required to do a lot of Scientology training throughout the day. There was also a few programs I went through where like I was in a part of a higher level part of the Sea Org.

• 34:15Speaker 04

  There's so much red tape. There's so many hierarchies. It's so.

• 34:20Annie Elise?

  Seems like by design.

• 34:22Speaker 04

  Yes, exactly. It's like, what are these people even doing? But basically, um, there was an initiation program to get into this higher level organization where we were required to do all the laundries of the senior executive on the base. We would do all of their laundry and we would clean their rooms for them. We would clean their offices for them and we would bring them food. And we had to complete a certain series of courses in order to get through that. So I did that program and.

• 34:56Speaker 04

  Sorry, I'm just trying to

• 34:57Annie Elise?

  No, no, no, you're fine.

• 34:59Speaker 04

  In a way, I, I'm sorry, I even forget your question. Oh, what?

• 35:04Annie Elise?

  I was just talking about what it was like in the Sea Org, and like, what the landscape of like, what you had to do and the requirements and dynamics and all of that. And if that was a part of it, and just kind of like, as you, I guess, because in my mind, I'm thinking, you're essentially climbing the Scientology ladder, so to speak. So like, as you continue to climb higher and higher, I would imagine the pressures increase, the requirements increase. Maybe the skepticism starts to trickle in. So just kind of walk, wanting to understand a little bit about just that period in your life.

• 35:37Speaker 04

  Right, yeah. Okay, so as far as Scientology, if you're a paying person who comes and pays for Scientology, they have what's called a gradation chart. And basically, you start at the bottom, and step by step, you move up. And each thing is a, is a course or a level of counseling that you have to do, and you have to do them in order. Now, there's some side things, like if you do this level right here, and you're not, and you're not doing well in life, they might have a side action they have you do in order to get you back on that level.

• 36:09Annie Elise?

  What classifies not doing well? You said doing well in life?

• 36:12Speaker 04

  Yes, like sometimes, like, just say you're at level two, and your life is in array, you are like, they had to have things called like life repair, or maybe if you get into, if you go to jail, like, they can do like, I don't know, like, a, an interrogation on you and find out what's going on.

• 36:31Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 36:32Speaker 04

  Like,

• 36:32Annie Elise?

  Just a life event?

• 36:34Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 36:34Annie Elise?

  Is it, would it be, I'm just trying to get a scale for it, like, would they consider your life in disarray if you were going through a breakup? Or is it something more severe, like you're drinking, you're doing drugs, you've gone to jail, like something that is more severe?

• 36:49Speaker 04

  No, something like that. As long as your attention is fixated on it and you're unable to fixate on your Scientology counseling, then they will do something to address it.

• 36:58Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 36:59Speaker 04

  Separately. At the beginning of every Scientology counseling session, they ask you, are you upset? Do you have a present time problem? And have you done something bad that you're hiding? And they try to get life things out of the way so they can do the Scientology counseling. But if it keeps coming up, then you'll probably have to do another service. Oh, oh my God, sorry.

• 37:21Annie Elise?

  That's okay.

• 37:21Speaker 04

  Another service or another program in order to get, like, deal with that and then get back on course.

• 37:27Annie Elise?

  How long is a counseling session?

• 37:29Speaker 04

  So it's usually a couple of hours.

• 37:33Annie Elise?

  Wow.

• 37:33Speaker 04

  Like, two or more, but like, so there's also different types of counseling sessions, like, and it is called auditing. I say counseling because Scientology has such a specific language.

• 37:45Annie Elise?

  Oh, I'm sure.

• 37:46Speaker 04

  And it's, I feel like it's so, it's hard to impart what I'm trying to say when I'm like trying to explain using their language. So I try not to use it, but it's like translating in my head every second. So there's different types of auditing sessions. Like, if you are in trouble, me as a staff member, I would get an interrogation. And that's basically when they ask you, have you done this bad thing? Have you done this bad thing? And they interpret it on the E-meter. And so sometimes those sessions last longer. Like, I've been in one of those sessions for nine hours straight.

• 38:19Annie Elise?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 38:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, where they're recording it. It's like an adult asking you a bunch of questions. They don't accept no for an answer. They only accept the E-meter's answer.

• 38:29Annie Elise?

  Are you comfortable sharing why that session was so long? Or what the primary root of that was?

• 38:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, well, first of all, it happened like 20 times.

• 38:39Annie Elise?

  It was a common thing.

• 38:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:42Annie Elise?

  It was like a standard practice of theirs.

• 38:44Speaker 04

  Right. But for me specifically, because I was the niece of the leader, and because they felt like how I acted represented how they looked to people. And I don't know if it's like they saw me as a potential threat. So one of the times when I started getting an interrogation was when my parents had actually left Scientology, and I didn't know. I just got pulled out of my duties.

• 39:07Annie Elise?

  How old were you at this time?

• 39:09Speaker 04

  At this point, I was 16.

• 39:11Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 39:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, so.

• 39:12Annie Elise?

  And they left? And they didn't notify you?

• 39:15Speaker 04

  No, I didn't even know that my parents were leaving. I had been forbidden to speak, to call my parents by my Aunt Shelley. And so, basically, they had taken me out of my everyday duties. And I started getting interrogated by this woman who was the highest level important person on the base. And this would go on for hours a day with a video camera. And then, basically, I was made, I was taken out of my duties. I was made to clean bathrooms anytime that I wasn't getting an interrogation from her. I was made to scrub the bathroom with a toothbrush, with somebody standing there watching me to make sure I didn't try to escape at any time. Someone else also stood outside my dorm at night while I was sleeping.

• 39:58Annie Elise?

  What would happen if, once you're notified that your parents left, which I want to ask why they left, but what would happen if you were to say, you know what, screw this. Throw the toothbrush down. I'm out of here. You can't hold me. I have free will. I'm not doing this anymore. I don't want to be a part of this. What would they do?

• 40:17Speaker 04

  Well, this is what's hard. That is what I eventually did when I left Scientology. But if I decided to do that, who would I go to? I knew zero people who weren't Scientologists.

• 40:31Annie Elise?

  Oh, you mean in terms of life outside of Scientology? So it's almost as though, kind of like, not only, and I, I hope this word doesn't offend you, because it's not at all what I mean, but it's almost as though they brainwash people inside there a little bit to be just so dependent on other Scientologists. And yeah, remove your ability to lean on anybody outside of the organization, so you feel trapped.

• 40:54Speaker 04

  Right, and I didn't know anybody outside of the organization. I didn't have a, I didn't have a dollar to my name. I didn't know how to cook. I didn't have a car. I didn't have a license. I didn't have a diploma. Like, I was raised to be afraid of people who weren't Scientologists. Like, not like they would hurt me or kill me, or something like that, but I was afraid of how I should speak to them if they were to ask questions, because we were, we were told how to answer questions, like...

• 41:21Speaker 04

  Like, I was supposed to say I was a student, but I didn't really know why. Now I know that's because as a kid, you're supposed to pretend like you're in school. But at that time, I didn't know what, like, I believed in Scientology. I thought it was great that I was working there.

• 41:34Annie Elise?

  Yeah, why do I have to lie?

• 41:35Speaker 04

  Exactly, yeah. So I was just like afraid of people who weren't Scientologists. And so I wouldn't have anyone to call or anyone to go if at that time I wanted to leave. I didn't even know my parents were gone, and I didn't even have a phone number for them. So there was no options, like, like me staying there, like, I just had nowhere to go.

• 41:54Annie Elise?

  How did they explain to you that your parents left? Did you, did they try to position in a way to suggest that they abandoned you? That they left, that they were the evil people in all of this?

• 42:06Speaker 04

  Well, so this bathroom cleaning and interrogations went on for months. And then one day, they said, you're going home, which I guess meant, I thought, meant back to the international management base where my parents were. Turned out it was in LA. I was brought to like the 10th floor of this building. It's the Hollywood Guaranty Building. And basically, two senior most officials in Scientology, they basically, like, I was basically waiting in this room for like two hours before they even came in. And they were like, so Ronnie and Biddy, that's my parents, have left. They are living in Mexico. Like, they basically sent them to Mexico so that no journalists could be in touch with them.

• 42:51Speaker 04

  And they're living in Mexico, and we want you to go with them. And I was like, so are they basically, I asked if they were declared SPs, which is a suppressive person, which is somebody who has left Scientology, is a critic of Scientology, and people who Scientology thinks are evil. And they were kind of like, well, yeah, but they didn't want to lead with that. And they're like, and you're going with them. And I was like, oh, well, I haven't seen my parents since I was 12. I've never lived in a home with them. I basically structured my whole life around. Like, you know, when I started my period, like, I got pads from my friend. You know, when, like, that, that's who my family was. And so, at this point, when my parents have left, I've been forbidden to talk to them for years.

• 43:36Speaker 04

  I was afraid of the outside world.

• 43:38Annie Elise?

  Of course.

• 43:39Speaker 04

  We were taught that in regular schools, like, in Scientology, they believe psychiatrists and psychologists are like evil. And they like, try to like lobotomize you and all this, and drug you. And I was like, I'm gonna go to a, a regular school? In Mexico? I don't even speak Spanish. And so I was like, no, I wanna stay. And, so basically, I wound up staying. And at the time, they were like, wow, you are such a dedicated, wonderful Sea Org member.

• 44:07Annie Elise?

  Do you think that they did that at all as some sort of reverse psychology? To be like, we want you to go to like, test your dedication and see if you want to stay? Or do you think they truly did want you to go?

• 44:17Speaker 04

  I think they wanted me to go to avoid a legal issue and drama with my parents.

• 44:23Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 44:23Speaker 04

  But I think that when I said I wanted to stay, they recognized that it was an opportunity for them to basically keep my parents in check.

• 44:32Annie Elise?

  Like, we have your daughter here.

• 44:34Speaker 04

  Exactly. Yeah. And if you speak out, if you say bad things, then you're not gonna see her.

• 44:41Annie Elise?

  Do you have any siblings?

• 44:43Speaker 04

  I have two half-brothers. Yeah.

• 44:45Annie Elise?

  Were they in Scientology as well?

• 44:47Speaker 04

  They were in Scientology as well. They grew up there. But it's kind of a weird, long story. Like, I have twin brothers, but they're my mom's kids and not my dad's kids. And they're eight years older than me. And so, they were at a different base than me. And so, it's just like...

• 45:03Annie Elise?

  Relation, but not the closeness?

• 45:05Speaker 04

  Right. Yeah. And also, I'm, I'm just trying to think, like, one of my brothers was already gone by then. And then one of my brothers left later.

• 45:13Annie Elise?

  Okay, so you don't have, currently, in your immediate family, there are no more family members in Scientology?

• 45:19Speaker 04

  Not in my immediate family, yeah.

• 45:21Annie Elise?

  Just your extended?

• 45:22Speaker 04

  Yes, right, yeah.

• 45:23Annie Elise?

  Well, I mean, of course, Stella, one of them is running Scientology.

• 45:26Speaker 04

  Right, yeah.

• 45:27Annie Elise?

  Um, okay, so then, I'm curious too. Just as people have spoken out over the years about Scientology and Leah Remini had her famous docu-series where she was exposing, she spoke with a lot of people who had left, some who were still involved and who wanted to be anonymous. Have you watched any of that?

• 45:44Speaker 04

  I've watched some of it, yeah.

• 45:45Annie Elise?

  What you've seen, is that an accurate portrayal of what it was like and truthful?

• 45:50Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 45:51Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 45:58Annie Elise?

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• 46:43Annie Elise?

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• 47:26Annie Elise?

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• 47:42Annie Elise?

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• 48:28Annie Elise?

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• 49:14Annie Elise?

  Okay, so the portrayal you're saying was accurate. I do have a quick question then. With all of that, just like with the celebrity of it all, I know you didn't have, you said you'd never met Tom Cruise or anything like that. Did you ever hear about special treatment that the celebrities were getting? Or like certain perks that they would receive just because of their participation? How did that look?

• 49:35Speaker 04

  So in Scientology Celebrity Center International, which is where the big celebrities are handled, there's like a whole office called the President's Office. They just help them in their day to day life. They help get them on Scientology services. They make sure they're entering through the right door. They so that they their privacy is protected. They handle their interpersonal relationships. They get them a good spot in the Scientology restaurants. All of that, they basically cater directly to them to make sure they're getting the best possible treatment. A lot of times when Scientology celebrities are on courses, they have their own private classrooms. If they're doing the purification rundown, they have their own private sauna. And even sometimes they're being counseled,

• 50:17Speaker 04

  audited by very senior level people, senior executives. Yeah, so I remember there was one period of time where I did not want to be in Scientology. I had like tried to like escape. And this man, his name was Marty Rathbun. He was like second in command of Scientology. And he literally was like chasing me on the street with his car. I finally got in the car. He took me to the top of Mulholland Drive. We got into an argument. He left me there. And then he finally, I didn't have a phone. I didn't have anything. I was just a brainwashed CIRG member. And he finally came back and got me. But he was like, look, I have been auditing Tom Cruise. His auditing file is right here in the car. I'm gonna go bring it into the Celebrity Center.

• 51:02Speaker 04

  Can you please just promise me you won't run out of this car? You won't run away when I take five minutes to go drop it off?

• 51:09Annie Elise?

  Wow.

• 51:10Speaker 04

  So that person was the second in command of all of Scientology. And that's who was auditing Tom Cruise. And that's also who was dealing with me.

• 51:18Annie Elise?

  That's interesting because I guess like obviously celebrities who are going through it, they're going through the same criteria that other people are. But like the fact that Tom Cruise still gets audited and things like that happen, that's wild to me. So going back, because I know we skipped ahead a little bit. At what point and at what age did you first start to question things? Or feel like I'm not on board with this? Something about this doesn't feel right? And what were the events after that following?

• 51:49Speaker 04

  Sure, yeah. Sorry, I just want to go back to the celebrity thing.

• 51:52Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 51:54Speaker 04

  The thing is that the celebrities, as far as special treatment, I would say the biggest thing that I take issue with is that they are not Sea Org members. So there is a whole crew of people who are basically being paid pennies, who are forfeiting their ability to have children. And yes, some of those people signed on as adults, but some of them were forced into it as children. They're being deprived of an education. And every time Tom Cruise or another celebrity pays millions to this organization to support it, they're actually supporting what is essentially a human trafficking organization and terrible treatment and abuse of children

• 52:36Speaker 04

  without they themselves having to do any of that labor or live in that difficult way.

• 52:42Annie Elise?

  Or live by those guidelines. Tom Cruise has children.

• 52:45Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 52:46Annie Elise?

  So why doesn't he have to follow the same rules that everybody else does?

• 52:49Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 52:49Annie Elise?

  But I think that you do, that was very well spoken, what you just said. And I think that that is incredibly important in all this because you're right. Their celebrity, their funding, all of it is enabling this organization to continue to just prey on people and suppress people and exploit children.

• 53:05Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 53:05Annie Elise?

  It's sick. It's so sick. So yeah, tell me a little bit about when you started to have a little bit of a realization.

• 53:12Speaker 04

  So the first time that I started to doubt anything about Scientology, I, it was probably about 14, 15. And I was on a Scientology course. And there was another Cadet Org type boarding school there in Florida. And one of the kids who was there, I was working with him on course. And for some reason at that school, like he didn't have the idea that he had to automatically be a Sea Org member. Like they gave them a little bit more choice, I guess. And so he would say things like, do you really believe that you're a spirit? Like, do you really want to be here? Like, you don't really seem happy in this job that you're doing.

• 53:55Speaker 04

  And it was the first time that I was like, I never really questioned it before. Like, I was always like, just took my parents' word for it. I took everyone's word for it. And I was like, Do I really believe that I'm a spirit? And I was like, do I really like doing this? Do I really like being held to this standard? And at that time, a lot was going on because I was forbidden to call my parents. My mom had gotten in trouble for something and I was just really worried about her. And I wasn't allowed to tell anybody that she was in trouble because she was a very senior executive in the Miscavige family and it would look bad. So I was also just like keeping this secret, not allowed to talk about it. And I wound up telling him and it was the first person who was like,

• 54:40Speaker 04

  wow, so you never see your parents? He was like, you've been away from this all, away from them all this time and you're not even allowed to talk to them? And he said, that must be really hard. That's not how Scientologists talk to each other. Like, they're not like, oh, I'm so sorry you're going through this. They're like, yeah, this is Scientology, suck it up. And by the way, if you speak badly about Scientology, it's only because you've done something bad. And so it was the first time that somebody spoke to me like that. And it was the first time I was like, yeah, maybe I don't like doing this. I've just assumed that I always did. And, and I think at that age, I was getting less attached to the idea of wanting to work there because my parents were there.

• 55:24Speaker 04

  Because I was 15, 16, that's how, that's how it is developmentally.

• 55:28Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 55:29Speaker 04

  And so, yeah, that was, that was the first time that I ever questioned it.

• 55:32Annie Elise?

  And then when did things come to a major crossroads to where you knew it's time to get out?

• 55:38Speaker 04

  That wound up happening when I was 21. So many things had happened from that time. I mean, I'd had so many interrogations I got. So after my parents left, I was basically taken out of Clearwater, Florida, brought to Los Angeles, I had to go through this. Whole program where I was like, had to sit in an office with a video camera all day, where I would study all of the policies about SPs, basically saying that my parents were SPs. I lived in a room by myself. I was completely isolated. And then finally, when I got more, like after a few months, when I got more integrated into the group, I wound up meeting who's now my ex-husband, and we fell in love.

• 56:21Speaker 04

  And in Scientology, you're not allowed to, or in the Sea Org, you're not allowed to have sex before you get married. And so people get married at really young ages. Like, my friend Misha got married when she was 15.

• 56:32Annie Elise?

  Just like certain Mormon cultures.

• 56:34Speaker 04

  Exactly, yeah. So it's like totally normal to get married at a young age there. And so, but Scientology wouldn't let us get married because they were afraid that his uncle would get in touch with my parents, and then they would, they're very paranoid, that they would like conspire against Scientology, and it would be bad. So we wound up having sex before we got married.

• 56:57Annie Elise?

  Go, girl. Just kidding.

• 57:00Speaker 04

  And then, that's like so forbidden, like, okay, so in the Sea Org, they have this program that's called the RPF. It's the Rehabilitation Project Force, where basically, like, if you mess up, you get assigned to this. And it is like the ultimate doghouse, like Gulag. Basically, you have to wear all black, you're not allowed to speak unless spoken to.

• 57:21Annie Elise?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 57:22Speaker 04

  You have to run everywhere you go, and you spend five hours a day getting interrogated. And also, it's like a special kind of interrogation where you have to find your evil intentions behind the things that you did. People are on this program for years.

• 57:36Annie Elise?

  Wow.

• 57:37Speaker 04

  And the rest of the time, they basically do heavy manual labor, like how we did at the ranch. And you're basically like garbage, like, you're like the worst of the worst. And it lasts for years. And so basically, normally, if you have premarital sex, but even if you just like touch someone in like inappropriate places, or anything like that, you get assigned to this program. And so that's what was at risk for me. Now, I basically was like, you guys didn't let us get married, so I refused to do it. And I think that at that time, they were like... Well, what are we gonna do? Get rid of her? That's a liability for us.

• 58:16Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 58:16Speaker 04

  And on some level, they acknowledged they didn't want me to get married because they didn't want my parents to come to the wedding. And so I, they had allowed me to write one letter to my parents saying that, you know, I wanted to get married. They said, it's fine. We don't have to come to your wedding. So I wound up getting married when I was 18. None of my family members were present. I was still wearing my uniform. And then, you know, they had previously tried to separate me and my fiance. Um, they, they sent us on a mission to Australia. And basically in that mission in Australia, I was actually able to be in contact with people in the regular world. We were sent to a Scientology church there where we were supposed to find them a new building and raise money for that building.

• 59:00Speaker 04

  And it was like a ridiculous, impossible job. I think they were trying to get rid of us. And basically I was able to be in touch with Scientologists, but who weren't in the Sea Org. And one of them had a little girl and like, I just hadn't really been around kids in that way. Well, I had when I was a kid, but we didn't think of each other as kids.

• 59:19Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 59:20Speaker 04

  And so it was like the first time that I was around this person who was like a mom. We'd go to her house. She had a bunch of little kids. She had another baby when we were there. And this little girl, I remember her name was Eden and she was like so cute and like, like she was kind of crazy. But it was like the first time where I was like, oh, this is so I'm not allowed. It was like the first time that not having kids actually mattered to me.

• 59:47Annie Elise?

  I can't have this.

• 59:48Speaker 04

  Yeah. And yeah, it was the first time where I really saw what I was missing. And then when we went back to LA, when the mission was over,

• 59:58Speaker 04

  basically like all hell had broken loose on the base. Like they were not letting people go to bed until midnight. They were basically like, uh, basically we were, uh, sorry.

• 1:00:08Annie Elise?

  No, that's okay. And why was that?

• 1:00:13Speaker 04

  It's basi- what I believe the reason for it is that Scientology is declining. Like, there are less members, they're making less money, and it's really because of the age of the internet and all of these bad stories are out there. And because of that Scientology doesn't have the power to silence people that they used to. And so because of that Scientology is declining. But in Scientology, if statistics are going down, they basically start an internal witch hunt. And they believe that it's because they're surrounded by SPs. And they basically just start treating everybody horribly and punishing everybody and thinking that that's going to

• 1:00:49Annie Elise?

  Change it somehow.

• 1:00:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, get them to do their job better.

• 1:00:51Annie Elise?

  Yeah, and make more people want to be a Scientologist.

• 1:00:54Speaker 04

  Exactly. But obviously, that's not the real problem. And I also think that my uncle, you know, had gotten more paranoid with that, like, people coming out about Scientology, like the Lisa McPherson case, who's a woman who died unnecessarily in the hands of Scientology. And, you know, I think that he just became more and more paranoid about those things. And so, just, the, the culture was already bad, but it was much worse. Like, we were getting screamed at every day at muster. If people fell asleep during tape play, they're being told to

• 1:01:30Annie Elise?

  What's tape play?

• 1:01:31Speaker 04

  Sorry, that's when we would listen to L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology's founder, drone on and on endlessly.

• 1:01:36Annie Elise?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:01:37Speaker 04

  It would be on a tape because he was dead. And so

• 1:01:42Annie Elise?

  Rest in peace. Actually, don't. Actually, don't.

• 1:01:45Speaker 04

  And they would start at like 11 o'clock at night.

• 1:01:48Annie Elise?

  Oh, my god.

• 1:01:49Speaker 04

  And so when people would fall asleep, it was like, they would get called out in front of everybody, and

• 1:01:55Annie Elise?

  It's like psychological warfare.

• 1:01:56Speaker 04

  Exactly. All the time. And it was almost like you were afraid to step out of line if, otherwise, you would be brought up in front of the group and humiliated. And it was just like this terrible culture. In Scientology, they already have a really crazy snitching culture. They have what's called knowledge reports, where if you don't report somebody who's slacking off, somebody who did something bad, somebody who spoke badly about Scientology or complained, then you will get in trouble.

• 1:02:23Annie Elise?

  Would they ever, like, test you and, like, have people pretend, like, to set you up and see if you would snitch on them?

• 1:02:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I remember one time there was a gal who actually had been at the boarding school with me when I was young. She was then in Florida with me and then she was in LA with me. She had just happened to be transferred to these different bases too. So I'd known her since I was a kid. And I remember she was one of the people who she also hadn't seen her father, who had left Scientology many years before. She was my age. And I remember I confided in her that my parents had left Scientology. And this really senior person on the base who was reporting directly to my uncle, she basically told me that my friend Natalia had confessed that I told her everything about my parents. Like, this was like a huge no-no. Like, I was not allowed to tell anybody.

• 1:03:15Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:16Speaker 04

  And she told me that Natalia had confessed that I told her this. And then I was like, oh, okay. And then, so, so then I was like, yeah, I did. Yeah. And then Natalia was like angry at me and even got like transferred to another base. And one time when I saw her at an event, she was like, yeah, I was just like, kind of a little bit upset because I, I just didn't think that you would ever tell that. And I was like, I didn't. She told me you had.

• 1:03:44Annie Elise?

  Oh, so they were just trying to pin you against each other and see?

• 1:03:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, where they're trying to get the truth. And so even that little interaction with Natalia, it's very rare to have that kind of loyalty in Scientology. Like, your friends think that they're hurting you by not reporting you. So it's like, you're living in this world where it's like, who is my friend, who's not, who's going to put the organization first? And it winds up, everyone's going to put the organization first, because if they put you first, if they get declared a SP, they lose all of their family, all of their connections, which, sorry, my stomach is-

• 1:04:18Annie Elise?

  No, no, no, you're fine.

• 1:04:20Speaker 04

  They lose all of their connections, which basically is their livelihood. Like, if you, if you don't have an education, which is how I grew up, you know, you only know other Scientologists that are going to give you a job, like- You're basically screwed if you get kicked out or leave. And so it's like, that's the choice they're making all the time when they choose whether or not to report you.

• 1:04:39Annie Elise?

  And I'm just curious, not even during this time period, but just in general, like, where is David in all of this? Like, how involved is he? We know he's like the face of everything. What's his house like? Where is he living? What's his day to day? Like, what's going on with him? With Uncle Dave?

• 1:04:57Speaker 04

  Right. So Dave and Shelley are supposed to be Sea Org members. That's how they started out. So they should be making fifty dollars a week, living communally, all that stuff like the rest of us. But the truth is that they travel on private planes. They are driven everywhere they go. They wear like Armani suits that are tailored by a professional tailor. There's someone who comes in and does their nails and their hair. They have a private chef. And basically, they mostly at the time were at the International Scientology Base. But they started spending a lot more time in Clearwater in the time when I was there. Not because of me. It was just because Clearwater Scientology's big money-making base.

• 1:05:41Speaker 04

  There's a lot of Scientology things going on there. Also, the Lisa McPherson case was happening. And that was a big deal for Scientology. But so between, those are the places that they are the most. And sometimes LA now. But he just lives, like, you know, they have a full-time steward. They have like just people working for them full-time, waiting on them, hand and foot.

• 1:06:05Annie Elise?

  So he doesn't have his own private home? He goes in between the facilities? Is that right?

• 1:06:10Speaker 04

  He has like a private home on the Scientology base.

• 1:06:13Annie Elise?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:06:14Speaker 04

  At Hemet, yeah, which is like a whole, like, there's several acres. And so he has his own private.

• 1:06:20Annie Elise?

  Living luxury.

• 1:06:21Speaker 04

  Yes, like gorgeous. And then same with in Clearwater, Florida. He has his own like, but it's not like a house or a mansion. It's on premises there. And he has his own place in LA.

• 1:06:33Annie Elise?

  And how active is he? Like, would he, if you were out digging trenches on the ranch, would you ever see him walking by? Or does he perform any of the audits or anything like? Like, how active is he just in kind of like the day-to-day grind?

• 1:06:48Speaker 04

  So he is like not around every day at all. He's like a special appearance where it's like, he's coming, clean up the whole base before he comes and make sure we make a good impression. But I wound up being around him a lot because I was at the end base when he was there. He would like, if I was working, he would come pick me up or, you know, on Christmas, et cetera. But when I was at Clearwater, Florida, his offices were just down the hall from the organization that I was in. And so, but like at the ranch, he maybe came there like once or twice.

• 1:07:23Annie Elise?

  And does he get audited?

• 1:07:26Speaker 04

  I've heard not.

• 1:07:28Annie Elise?

  I mean, who would do that audit, I guess?

• 1:07:29Speaker 04

  Right, yeah. Well, so at some level in Scientology, you actually audit yourself. I'm going like this. I'm totally serious. I'm going like this because normally with the E-meter, you hold two cans. But when you are auditing yourself, you have two cans in one hand and you hold them at the same time.

• 1:07:48Annie Elise?

  So like, I know, I don't mean to make light of this, but if you're auditing yourself and if you're holding and you're like, Annie, have you been truthful today? And the current shows I'm a tell yourself, have you, like, couldn't you just like go round and round? Like, it just seems wild to me.

• 1:08:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, some people literally have lost their mind doing this. You're, you're supposed to be, um, so I, I don't know if you know, I did not know this the entire time was in, when I was in Scientology. But when you reach a certain level, which is like called the wall of fire, you basically learn that in Scientology, they believe that there's this like alien dude named Xenu and he like lured our spirits in and froze us into popsicles and then put us in a volcano and shot us back to earth, but that we have these little spirits attached to us and they like whisper bad stuff to us and they're like-

• 1:08:41Annie Elise?

  And people believe this.

• 1:08:42Speaker 04

  Yes, fully. Yeah. I mean, my parents did that level, but, but you're not allowed to talk about it. Like you think when you're there, that if you learn about this thing, that before you've completed all the previous levels, that you're like gonna die. Like your mind is gonna like, you're, you're, there's something bad, it's gonna get scrambled and that you're going to like get sick and die. So I was like terrified.

• 1:09:03Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:03Speaker 04

  Um, and then, you know, when I left, I actually watched South Park, but even though I was out of Scientology, I was like, I'm still kind of afraid. Like,

• 1:09:11Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:11Speaker 04

  I asked my ex-husband to watch. I was like, can we test this?

• 1:09:16Annie Elise?

  Go test this on you.

• 1:09:19Annie Elise?

  I love that. Girl, and that's why he's my ex-husband. I'm actually a widow.

• 1:09:26Speaker 04

  No, because then I would never know. So he survived and then I survived. But then, you know, obviously, like now there's been so many more ex Scientologists who've come forward confirming that this is the story. I think even Leah Remini has confirmed this. And my parents also confirmed it for me.

• 1:09:45Speaker 04

  Sorry, I forget how we got on to that.

• 1:09:46Annie Elise?

  I was just talking about kind of like, yeah, the whole him being involved auditing yourself.

• 1:09:50Speaker 04

  Oh, oh, right.

• 1:09:51Annie Elise?

  How you lose your mind, all the things.

• 1:09:53Speaker 04

  So after that level, oh, oh, so after that level, you audit yourself on the cans and you basically are trying to get rid of these like little beings that are attached to your body. Yeah. So you're kind of like communicating with voices in your head.

• 1:10:07Annie Elise?

  That feels really dangerous.

• 1:10:09Speaker 04

  Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Like some people have literally lost their mind while doing this. And so, but it's also like, you know, for him, I think it would be an easy way not to be forced to answer hard questions if somebody else is auditing you. Because when I was getting audited, I never did the solo auditing. Basically, the person would be like, yeah, you got to answer this question and we're not leaving this room until you answer.

• 1:10:37Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:37Speaker 04

  So it's easy for him to be like, oh, I'll just audit myself.

• 1:10:40Annie Elise?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:10:41Speaker 04

  So I actually think it was a cop out more than, yeah.

• 1:10:45Annie Elise?

  Oh, man. And so what was the final straw that made you leave? And what was that day like?

• 1:10:50Speaker 04

  Um, so I had come back to the base and it was all like, it was just so much worse than it had been. And there was also little things, things that are small things, but they kind of put me over the edge. My parents had already left and while I was in Australia, I was able to communicate them with a little, communicate with them a little bit. And they had started to tell me things like that. Basically, my mom witnessed my uncle beating people when he was there.

• 1:11:16Annie Elise?

  There is a lot of that out there.

• 1:11:18Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:11:19Annie Elise?

  And so your mom had said she's witnessed it.

• 1:11:21Speaker 04

  She witnessed it firsthand.

• 1:11:22Annie Elise?

  And is it just, I would imagine, what, other Scientologists who step out of line?

• 1:11:27Speaker 04

  It was basically other senior executives who he was essentially blaming for the Scientology not like.

• 1:11:36Speaker 04

  Doing so amazingly well, he would just blame them for everything and punish them for it, keep them imprisoned in this trailer, make them sleep under their desks. By the way, even at my level where I was at, like, they were trying to make us stay up night after night after night. And I would, like, I would be like, no, I'm going to bed. And other people would be like, yes, please, keep saying that we're gonna go to bed. We'll, we'll stay, we'll, we'll do this with you. And then they would always, like, bail, because they would get in trouble. And so they were trying to make us stay up night after night. Like, they would even give us, like, B-12 shots in order to keep us energized.

• 1:12:10Annie Elise?

  Which, it's because that's what will wear you down. And again, it's psychological warfare. It's keeping you up, it's keeping you exhausted to where it not only wears you down, but then it makes it easier to plant these ideas and these thoughts into your mind. And it, it's awful.

• 1:12:25Speaker 04

  Exactly, yes. And then they would also, like, go around, like, just, they would do things that I always thought I was in Scientology to help people. But they would go around the offices, like, they would have certain enforcers, and they would be like, you can't have this, this protein bar in your desk, throw it away. So we're already getting fifty dollars a week. We had to pay for the protein bar. And they would force you to throw it away on the spot. We didn't have money to spend. We were hungry, because, you know, when you eat at six o'clock at night, and you are up all night, or you don't go home until midnight on the good nights, then, so they were just going around doing these needless things. And they'd be like, you're not allowed to listen to music, turn off the music. They would do things that weren't even in alignment with Scientology's policies.

• 1:13:07Annie Elise?

  Just to be a tyrant.

• 1:13:08Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 1:13:09Annie Elise?

  And have control.

• 1:13:10Speaker 04

  Exactly. And I had gotten a hold of a cellphone at that time, and a few other people had. And then they made this base-wide thing, we, we had never been allowed to have cellphones before. But they tried to make this base-wide thing where they were gonna take away the cellphones. And I wound up being the last person on the base, willing to give, like, I was like, no, you're not taking away my cellphone. And there was just so much pressure put on me. So it was between hearing the things from my parents, seeing what was going on, and being in the mindset of somebody who, who I truly cared about people, I thought I was sacrificing everything in Scientology so that I could help people.

• 1:13:47Speaker 04

  And when I saw them basically going around to my friends and saying, you can't have food, you can't have music, you can't sleep, and you're you guys are destroying everything in Scientology. You're horrible. It became this like switching moment where I was like, this isn't, these aren't the actions of people who actually care about helping people. And I even tried to get myself changed to a different position where I was like only doing Scientology counseling to see if like even Scientology worked and that didn't go well.

• 1:14:17Annie Elise?

  And counseling, again, to confirm that you were performing the audits then?

• 1:14:21Speaker 04

  Yes, but I was only going through the training like I like. So there's just a few audits that you do in training, but they were like harmless things, like teaching people better or people learning to communicate better or whatever. I was never interrogating anybody, but and it was just like you do brief things at the end of each training level. I never became a full on counselor.

• 1:14:42Annie Elise?

  But you wanted to see if there were other departments that maybe would feel like, okay, now we're back on track. This is a better fit. We are helping people.

• 1:14:49Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 1:14:49Annie Elise?

  And it didn't materialize.

• 1:14:50Speaker 04

  It didn't materialize and they I don't care about this now, but they weren't even following Scientology's policies. Scientology policies are horrible enough, but they weren't even going by their own, like if the policy said staff had a few rights, they ignored those and they brush them aside consistently. And because of because of who my uncle was, the people who I saw doing it to me were at the highest level. So I think it was easier for me to see that, no, no, this isn't people down at the lower level messing it up. It's coming from the top. They care less about Scientology and about people than even people at the lower level. And so it was weird. Like I knew I didn't

• 1:15:31Speaker 04

  like it, but there became a point where my body was like, nope, like we can't go back to work today.

• 1:15:37Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:38Speaker 04

  We're not doing this. Like it was even like if I wanted to, it was weird because I was always out of touch with my body because I was always working my ass off, sleeping, I mean, not sleeping. And like I thought I was a spiritual being and I thought any illness I had, I could heal through my mind. So my body was just considered a meat body that I happened to have this lifetime. But it was like my body that kind of saved me. That was like.

• 1:16:02Annie Elise?

  We're not doing it.

• 1:16:02Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. I was like, we can't. And I was just like, this is the first time I felt that way. I was like,

• 1:16:07Annie Elise?

  Wow.

• 1:16:08Speaker 04

  we just can't go back. And then I was like.

• 1:16:11Speaker 04

  I'm done. I'm done.

• 1:16:12Annie Elise?

  Now, you've said, you've been pretty outspoken, how when you left there Scientology is there it's known for its intimidation tactics, its stalking, it's just smear campaigns, all sorts of things. There's actually, I'm not going to name her on here for just in case she doesn't want to be put on blast, but there is another creator who a couple of years ago did like a full deep dive into Scientology, multiple episodes and ended up having a lot of retaliation from them, being followed, harassed all the way overseas to London, as a matter of fact. And I think there's been so many people who have said firsthand that they have experienced that and that they've been threatened and that they their reputation has been destroyed and that there are these, again,

• 1:16:56Annie Elise?

  just very calculated smear campaigns and, you know, very dangerous things. And so you, my point is that you've been outspoken about what it was like for you after you left and how there were people who stood outside your door at certain times and did certain things. Can you talk a little bit about that?

• 1:17:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. So, starting off, as I was leaving Scientology first, basically, you have to go through an interrogation before you leave in order to remain in good standing. And so if you don't, then you basically never get to talk to any of your friends or anything like that again. And they wanted me to do that. And I was like, I just can't, like, I'm not going to. And basically, they also handed me this contract thing saying, I agree to pay millions of dollars if I speak badly about Scientology. And I was basically like, at this point, I was like, no, I just like shredded it up and basically like dropped it in their face. And so they were telling my husband at the time, who had said he wanted to leave with me, they're basically

• 1:17:54Speaker 04

  like, if she leaves and doesn't do this interrogation, we will make sure you never see your family again. So they started secretly taking him off. And he would like be coming home later because I would just stay in my room all day while I was going through this. And I was basically waiting for him to leave with me. And they basically convinced him that my family was bad and that if he and that I was bad and they were doing this with him every day for hours on end, like just basically brainwashing him, having him on the E meter and that sort of thing. And he wasn't telling me, he was lying to me. Yeah. And then finally, it came down to it like where I was like, all right, well, like he was basically finally like after me like,

• 1:18:40Speaker 04

  Always trying to get a straight answer out of him. He was like, yeah, I'm not gonna go with you. And I was like, really upset. I was heartbroken, you know. Um, we had been through so much together and basically I was like, all right, well, I'm leaving. And we're both crying and Scientology was basically like, he can't even take you to the airport.

• 1:18:58Annie Elise?

  Yeah, cuz at that point, you're deemed an SP.

• 1:19:01Speaker 04

  Exactly. Yes. Now, he was like, no, I'm gonna take her to the airport. This is the last time I'm gonna see my wife, who I've been married to for three years. And he basically said he was gonna take me. So they basically put themselves in the car, like right between us, refused to let us have any privacy. At the airport, I was like, just so heartbroken. The girl was standing right there. This girl who worked in Scientology's Office of Special Affairs, which is basically their like CIA, they handle who they consider enemies of Scientology. They handle their legal issues. They're basically the ones that stalk and harass people and make their lives miserable forever, talking out, speaking out about Scientology. And so she was like in our face. Finally, I told him, I was like, look,

• 1:19:46Speaker 04

  if you wanna stay, I'll stay here and I'll get through my program. I was kinda tricking him. And then he wound up basically like, I guess, like feeling loved and loyalty from this. And he was like, well, this is what's really been happening. They've been pulling me aside every day and

• 1:20:03Annie Elise?

  And how were they not hearing this? Or they were?

• 1:20:06Speaker 04

  She was there and I, but because we were in a public place, because all Scientology cares about is PR.

• 1:20:11Annie Elise?

  Yep.

• 1:20:11Speaker 04

  It's literally all they care about. Like, it's funny, even in my, um, my thing declaring me an SP, like they have this issue. Like, they, they mentioned this incident and they're like, she yelled at me and this created bad PR for Scientology. Cuz I was like, get away. Leave me and my husband alone. Because I knew that that's all they cared about.

• 1:20:30Annie Elise?

  Yeah, they, it, all that matters is perception at that point.

• 1:20:32Speaker 04

  Exactly, yeah.

• 1:20:33Annie Elise?

  Okay, so he's telling you the truth of what's been happening?

• 1:20:36Speaker 04

  She wound it up like going away because she, because it was like, otherwise it was gonna create a scene. And then, but she kept calling him on the phone over and over. And I like literally broke the phone in half. I was like,

• 1:20:47Annie Elise?

  Good.

• 1:20:47Speaker 04

  I was at my wit's end at this point. Yeah. And so he told me everything that had been happening. He was like, I'm sorry, I've been hiding it from you. And then I was, so basically we went back and we were like, okay, well, I'll do my program. And then they were like, well, no, now you have to leave. You're too much trouble, which was true. By the end, I was trouble. Like, I couldn't deal with it anymore.

• 1:21:09Annie Elise?

  No, no, no, girl, no take backs. See, we don't want you.

• 1:21:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, so they tried to separate. And also, at this point, I was in touch with my parents and I felt, I feel like there was like

• 1:21:20Annie Elise?

  And you saw the light. They, yeah, they weren't going to be able to trick you back in.

• 1:21:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, and for the first time, I actually had a place to go. Like, my parents at least were out, or now I was with somebody who had family, who actually were Scientologists, anyways, we'll get into that.

• 1:21:33Annie Elise?

  And had you seen your parents in person again at this point? Or had you only communicated on the phone?

• 1:21:37Speaker 04

  I had seen them once when I was, I believe it was when I was seventeen. And then they had allowed me to visit my parents once for Christmas.

• 1:21:50Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 1:21:50Speaker 04

  Before then.

• 1:21:50Annie Elise?

  And how old were you when you left?

• 1:21:52Speaker 04

  I was twenty-one. I was almost twenty-two, yeah.

• 1:21:54Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 1:21:55Speaker 04

  And so, we went back and basically they were like, no, you can't come back. Dallas, come with us, we're gonna separate you again. He was like, no, we're not doing that again. And he wound up being like, okay, well, I'm done too. Let us go get our stuff. We'll drive down to San Diego, which is where he grew up. And they're like, no, you can't go get your stuff. You're out. You have to leave. So basically, like, my parents had, like, sent me a credit card that, just in case of emergencies. And Scientology had passed it through to me, but they were like, this is so that they can never say we didn't give it to you. And so, like, we wound up staying at the Travelodge. The next morning when we woke up, there was this huge, or not huge, it was like a U-Haul

• 1:22:40Speaker 04

  trailer packed with all of our stuff. There was like a full inventory of like, every little single thing that was in there, down to the number of Q-tips. Like, someone had been up all night packing our stuff.

• 1:22:50Annie Elise?

  And counting and taking inventory of everything.

• 1:22:52Speaker 04

  Yeah. What they do also is take away any photos you have that they think are incriminating. So this is their chance to go through your stuff, to make sure that you don't have anything that could hurt them in any way. It's actually illegal for them not to let me go get my stuff.

• 1:23:07Annie Elise?

  Yeah, that seems crazy.

• 1:23:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, it is crazy. And so...

• 1:23:11Annie Elise?

  And I'm just curious, what would have happened if you would have basically said to them, like... Sorry, I'm in a curse, but like fuck off, I'm grabbing my stuff and it just started walking towards your stuff. Would they physically restrain you?

• 1:23:22Speaker 04

  Definitely, yeah, like we actually started doing that and they were like, she's coming and the security guards were there. Now, what I should have done at the time was call the cops, but I didn't, like, I had no real experience with the outside world. I didn't really know my rights. It's something that I'm still learning right now.

• 1:23:37Annie Elise?

  Of course.

• 1:23:38Speaker 04

  Um, so, and then basically this head security guard like looked right at my ex-husband and he was like, I'm gonna do everything in my power to make sure your family never speaks to you again.

• 1:23:50Annie Elise?

  Oh, my gosh, cuz his family was still in it.

• 1:23:53Speaker 04

  Yes, so we, so he wanted to go to San Diego, which is where his family was. So I went with him. So we went together, but his, his family members were Scientologists. They were still active Scientology members. So basically Scientology was like spying on us, um, like seeing where our cars were parked. They were constantly calling his parents, trying to get information from them about us. Um, I started working at his parents jewelry store and they were constantly trying to get me to go back into Scientology. Um, they were even trying to get, like this guy who worked there was trying to audit me and they were just trying to get information constantly. They were trying to get me to go back there and get what Scientology calls a committee of evidence or to get my

• 1:24:36Speaker 04

  interrogation. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, leave me alone. But his, but, um, my husband's parents were trying, were basically like, with my husband, they wanted to have him be in good standing as a Scientologist, which involved, so when you leave the Sea Org, you have to pay for all of the courses you were ever made to take while you were in the Sea Org, which is like hundreds of thousands of dollars sometimes. So they wanted him to pay what, what's called your freeloader debt. So even though, even though I worked for them since I was a kid.

• 1:25:09Annie Elise?

  On earth am I ever gonna pay this at fifty dollars a week? Like, are you out of your freaking mind?

• 1:25:13Speaker 04

  Well, you're not making fifty dollars a week anymore cuz you only have to pay it when you leave.

• 1:25:16Annie Elise?

  Okay, got it.

• 1:25:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. But still, it's like the height of insanity. Like I've been, I was a slave labor. I'm not a freeloader. You guys are the freeloaders.

• 1:25:24Annie Elise?

  Exactly.

• 1:25:25Speaker 04

  But so they were trying to pressure him to do that and I was like, I was like, absolutely not. Absol- so he was kind of still brainwashed.

• 1:25:32Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:25:33Speaker 04

  My ex-husband was. He wound up reading a book, got un-brainwashed. Um, but his pa- it was just like this, this, it just caused strife between me and his family.

• 1:25:43Annie Elise?

  Of course.

• 1:25:43Speaker 04

  Constantly at the workplace. I wound up working somewhere else, but one time when we were at work at the jewelry store, someone called in and they're like, I want to talk to Dallas Hill. And they're like, yeah, I'm just a good Samaritan. Someone's following you. And he was like, huh? Like, what do you mean? He's like, well, I have a police scanner. Your wife went to this hairdresser yesterday. You went here and here and here. And I'm just saying, there's two of them. One's a man, one's a woman, and they've been following you for months now.

• 1:26:11Annie Elise?

  Wow.

• 1:26:18Annie Elise?

  Okay, can we just talk about holiday gifting for a second? There's nothing like having those pieces in your closet that you absolutely love, that you know you can count on for any occasion. For me, it's like this nice little silk two-piece jumpsuit. It's like a pant and a nice little like top blouse, because I'm not really a dress person. And I feel like the best part is like, maybe give somebody else that feeling. Having that staple to go to in their closet that is high quality, that looks great, that they can wear for any occasion. So this holiday season, I've not only found those pieces for myself in the past at Quince, but I am paying it forward and I am gifting the gift of Quince this season. Everything there is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands,

• 1:27:01Annie Elise?

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• 1:27:45Annie Elise?

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• 1:28:56Speaker 04

  So, they were following us. There was also somebody who had been a friend of ours in Scientology. He basically showed up at our work one day, said he was in a bad place, that he needed help, he needed support. And we let him live with us and even work there for a few months. And it just wound up that he was basically reporting on us the entire time.

• 1:29:22Annie Elise?

  Did your uncle try reaching out to you at all during all of this, or Shelley?

• 1:29:26Speaker 04

  He did not, because at this point, like, so many years later, documents have come out that Mike Rinder had in his possession that were basically his exchanges with my uncle at that time. So, because it's considered a legal issue of concern for the church, my uncle has to put like spacers between me and whoever my handles are. So, basically so you can have plausible deniability. And so, that's what was happening. In addition, even the whole time I was in Scientology, it was like this weird vibe of like, family means nothing.

• 1:30:02Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:02Speaker 04

  Like, that's how it's supposed to be. But then I would still be involved with my uncle and my aunt. So, it was sort of this like cognitive dissonance, like... Family's supposed to mean nothing, so I guess it means nothing, but also they're paying close attention to me.

• 1:30:17Annie Elise?

  And it means everything because I'm trying to impress them. Yeah.

• 1:30:19Speaker 04

  Yeah. And, and why do they care so much about what I'm doing if it really means something? So it was just always like this mind fuck going on all the time. So, so no, he didn't reach out to me because I think that, you know, he was afraid that, that it would have been something. And so, so to this same degree, I feel like me having spoken publicly about it, I actually think it was a degree of protection for me.

• 1:30:45Annie Elise?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:30:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:30:47Annie Elise?

  I think anybody who has the courage and strength to speak out, you're taking your power back and you're removing it from them because you're like, no, I'm not going to live in the shadows anymore. I'm not going to stay quiet. If something, God forbid, does happen to me, I'm on a record now. I have put this out there and that makes them more nervous and scared.

• 1:31:06Speaker 04

  Exactly. That's exactly what I think that it was. And so I remember when I, I believe it was like in, so the first time I spoke out was, I remember there had been a biography written about Tom Cruise and it had sort of roasted Scientology and talked about the RPF, the Rehabilitation Product Force, a bunch of things. And it said how they destroy families. And Scientology had issued this statement saying, we love families. Families are great. And it just, it made me so angry. I was like, not only do they not feel bad about anything they do, but they are so arrogant that they can go out there and tell these lies to everyone and think that they can get away with it while

• 1:31:47Speaker 04

  they are ruining my family and my relationship with my in-laws and my husband as we speak. And so I wound up like writing a letter to the woman who, who had written this rebuttal thing. And then, um, like it got picked up by the media and I was doing, I was doing something, I had done something with ABC Nightline.

• 1:32:09Speaker 04

  And they had sent some like senior executive Scientologists down to meet with me and my ex-husband. And they were just like trying to show me all of these Scientology policies and being like, you know, you can't be doing this. It's bad. I was like, guys, those policies mean nothing to me.

• 1:32:25Annie Elise?

  Yeah. They're like, you signed a billion year contract. You're all eat shit. Like, get out of here. Get out of my face.

• 1:32:30Speaker 04

  Yeah. And they were even like, well, what would it take for you to not do this? And I was like, well, I would like for you to make it so all Sea Org members get the a week, a day off every other week, like they're supposed to get.

• 1:32:43Annie Elise?

  That's like the bare minimum, a day off every other week?

• 1:32:46Speaker 04

  Exactly. Yeah. And so they were like, they were Sea Org members and they're like, but we like working this hard. We like, I was like, okay, like, yeah, this is like, this isn't happening. And then that same day, we were being followed by PIs and I was just like, F this, like it's done. I never really considered stopping, but I did consider them like, you know, if they're able to have some reform or change things for people, then that would matter to me.

• 1:33:13Annie Elise?

  Well, I think that that's important because you had even mentioned earlier that when you were looking at switching departments, it was because your goal was wanting to help people. And when you were starting to get doubts and you wanted to see like, is this still an organization that helps people? So that tracks where is if they maybe did say like, okay, we will do some reform with the Sea Org, with the ranch, with this and that, I could see where you, and I totally would understand where you'd be like, okay, then I won't be so outspoken. Like, thank you for doing this. You're improving the conditions. You're helping people because that's who you are in your core.

• 1:33:45Speaker 04

  Yes, exactly. That's what mattered to me. And so just that didn't happen. And so I just wound up sort of moving forward from that point. And um,

• 1:33:57Annie Elise?

  Wow.

• 1:33:58Speaker 04

  Yeah. And so when my parents had left Scientology, they had not really told anybody in their life that they were in Scientology. And many people who had left Scientology kind of like kept it a secret. And I wound up, you know, when I got a new job, I wound up approaching it differently because I could, people like, normal people always ask, I was like, where are you from? Where did you go to school? And I'm like, Jesus Christ, are you the police or something? Like, I was always like, how do I answer these questions? And so I just wound up being upfront with people. And I found that people were very kind in a way that I'd never experienced before. Like, they'd be like, oh, wow, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. And I was like, oh, they're nice.

• 1:34:39Speaker 04

  Like, and so I felt, I guess I felt like safe in that kind of like everyone, even though I was speaking out, everyone who I knew knew where I was coming from. And they knew that if anything happened to me, it would be them. And I was speaking about it publicly.

• 1:34:56Annie Elise?

  Well, and it's so interesting because like coming from the inside out, it's like, and I'm not speaking for everyone in the population, but I can confidently say, I would imagine 90% of the population who are not Scientologists have a certain opinion about Scientology. So to your point, when you're confiding and sharing that, you more than likely, nine times out of 10, probably 9.9 times out of 10, will be, you know, on the other end, that somebody will be understanding, sympathetic, you know, kind to you because I think just the general perspective in the outside world of Scientology is, this is a cult. This is horrific. This is exploitation. Like, this is awful. And so I'm glad that you felt comfortable enough to share. And I would imagine that that, or I would hope I should say,

• 1:35:41Annie Elise?

  that that would be a little bit cathartic for you to just share more and be honest and feel like you can lift that weight a little bit.

• 1:35:48Speaker 04

  Right. That's totally how it was. Like, it actually made me feel really good about the world that I had grown up being so afraid of, was how nice, how people were allowed to be kind to each other. They weren't required to report on each other. You know, they weren't going to tell on you. They were actually going to care about you and check on you. And things like that just made me, just made me so happy to not really be in Scientology.

• 1:36:12Annie Elise?

  Of course.

• 1:36:13Speaker 04

  Anymore. And then, um, when I eventually wrote my book, I had kids around the same time. And so I wrote my book and, you know, I did a book tour and that did well. But I feel like when I became a mom, I basically was like,

• 1:36:33Speaker 04

  If I fuck this up, then I won't be able to live with myself because of my own upbringing. And I just like threw every little bit of myself into it. And like, was just like trying to be the most perfect mom in the entire universe. But there was other things like still going on, like, once you leave Scientology, like, it doesn't all just go away. Like, if you grew up not in a home, like, never really being loved or doted on, or nobody like looking out for your best interests, not having anyone you can fight on, it's like, like, this is a lifetime thing.

• 1:37:08Annie Elise?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:37:08Speaker 04

  You know, you deal with it for the rest of your life. And so, you know, at that moment, like, I, like, going through my, my kids' childhood, I, it taught me so much more about myself, my own life. It made me kind of remember bad things. And also not be like, oh, well, why, like, why didn't my parents want to be around me? Or it just put my situation in perspective, like.

• 1:37:32Annie Elise?

  It's like a mirror just shining back on you.

• 1:37:34Speaker 04

  Yes, I was like, okay, it's, I, I thought of myself like, oh, I'm fine. But when I imagine things happening to my kids that happened to me, it actually makes me furious, not just on my behalf, but for all kids who grew up there.

• 1:37:48Annie Elise?

  Because you're a human, you're a normal human.

• 1:37:50Speaker 04

  Exactly, yeah, yeah. And having this organization still out there, that just thinks that they can get away with everything. But I, I kind of had to partition my mind, like, where I can't be angry for this period, because I have to be a good mom. And so, I was raising my kids for, you know, many years. Now my daughter's 13, my son is 16, and I got divorced a couple of years ago. Me and my ex-husband are still great friends. We have a great relationship. We've been through so much together, but we did get married when we were 18 in a cult.

• 1:38:23Annie Elise?

  There's that.

• 1:38:24Speaker 04

  Yes, yes.

• 1:38:25Annie Elise?

  Did he, has he gone back to Scientology?

• 1:38:27Speaker 04

  No, no, he's totally, yeah, he's, he's not in Scientology. His, his parents took a while to get out of Scientology and like, they're not active Scientologists, but I think they still, I think when you get out, when you're older, it's hard to let go

• 1:38:41Annie Elise?

  Of course.

• 1:38:42Speaker 04

  Of some of these things.

• 1:38:43Annie Elise?

  It's your belief system and it's ingrained in you.

• 1:38:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, and it makes you have to like rethink your choices you made for your children in your whole life. And so, um, his dad has passed away now, but his mom, like, she doesn't practice it, she's not involved, but like occasionally she'll say certain things that I'm like, ugh.

• 1:39:01Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:01Speaker 04

  But, um, yeah, so I think that, um, sort of like entering into like this healing phase of like, you know, now that I'm divorced, I have a little bit of sometimes time to myself where I'm able to get back into more of the Scientology things and really, um, while I always put my kids first, it's like I, for the first time in my life, I'm learning to value myself and my opinions. And because when I was raising my kids, I was in a little bit of an atmosphere where people were all ex Scientologists, I kind of had to like push how I felt down in order

• 1:39:43Speaker 04

  to survive in that arena where I sort of became a little bit of a shadow of myself after losing everyone I'd ever known from Scientology. And so now I feel like I'm speaking out again because I'm kind of coming back to myself, like.

• 1:39:57Annie Elise?

  That's great.

• 1:39:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, like I'm starting to like go back to the old me where I'm living life on my own terms and I'm actually valuing myself in a way that I was never taught to my entire life.

• 1:40:13Annie Elise?

  I love that so much because I think too. Nobody has the kind of knowledge that you have about this situation, no matter how much research is done, whatever books are read, and I would imagine that that gives you, or it at least should, it should give you a lot of purpose. And you should be incredibly proud of that because nobody can learn the way that you are now delivering this information and educating the public on it. And I totally get what you meant by you became a shadow of yourself and you had to suppress that because you you were surrounded by ex Scientologists. And it's like, now you're getting back into your space, feeling confident, sharing that, and having your voice be heard. And I think that's so powerful.

• 1:40:53Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 1:40:54Annie Elise?

  I love that so much. I have to ask, I there's some questions that I know people are gonna like, wanna kill me if I don't ask, and it's what people probably always ask. So I'm gonna hit you with some questions. If anything is too sensitive or too controversial, just say not answering that.

• 1:41:09Speaker 04

  Okay, no worries.

• 1:41:10Annie Elise?

  What are would you say are some of the top, call it top three or top five, like, unknown dark secrets of Scientology? You mentioned your uncle and like the closed doors, closed door beatings and things like that. Like, what are some like, dark parts that maybe are a little bit less known?

• 1:41:31Speaker 04

  Well, my biggest thing about Scientology is how they basically use children as slave labor. They did in my time. Now, I don't think that they are, they allow, like, they don't have the cadoreds like they did, but but children are still allowed to get Scientology auditing and training. And that training consists of things that are entirely inappropriate for children, like where you basically are required to do certain communication drills where you are.

• 1:42:08Speaker 04

  Violently hazed and where there's an adult, in my case, who's basically pointing out things about your growing body.

• 1:42:16Annie Elise?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:42:16Speaker 04

  In a room full of other adults and you're basically learning not to react if somebody treats you badly or makes fun of you or whatever.

• 1:42:24Annie Elise?

  What age does that start at?

• 1:42:25Speaker 04

  That started when I was 12.

• 1:42:27Annie Elise?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:42:27Speaker 04

  But this is if, so this is if a child is training to become a counselor, which Scientology moms on their Facebook groups or even Scientology itself puts out certificates of like 16 year olds, holding their certificate, completing this course. Well, that's what being on that course means.

• 1:42:45Annie Elise?

  Wow.

• 1:42:45Speaker 04

  Like not just me, for everyone, for all of the other kids who were on that course at the same time as me.

• 1:42:50Annie Elise?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:42:51Speaker 04

  That's a huge problem. Like that's teaching a kid to normalize sexual harassment and abuse.

• 1:42:56Annie Elise?

  Yes, absolutely.

• 1:42:58Speaker 04

  So also, when a child becomes a counselor, they learn to take confessions. So they wind up being in situations where they're taking confessions from adults of the same sex, of the opposite sex, talking about their personal, private intimacy things that they did that they feel are sins.

• 1:43:18Annie Elise?

  And they're having to live with that and store that information.

• 1:43:21Speaker 04

  Yes, they're having to write it down. They're having to take these confessions from adults and it's completely inappropriate. Children are also required to give these confessions. Like, I'll just give you an example, like in Scientology, growing up, like touching yourself was not allowed.

• 1:43:36Annie Elise?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:43:37Speaker 04

  And if you do, you have to confess it. And you're confessing it on an E meter with a video camera. If you try to leave the room, you're physically barred from leaving the room. Part of training as a counselor is practicing how to stop people from leaving a room. I tried to leave the room many times during a confessional and was physically barred, was even chased down the street. And so you're basically required to give these confessions and they don't just, you don't just say what you did. They say, when was it? Where was it? How many times? Give me all of the details. It's, there's no adult in the room. In my case, my parents were across the country.

• 1:44:19Speaker 04

  And when they're recording it in this way and writing it down, and then they're passing this information, like each counseling session has a case supervisor.

• 1:44:27Annie Elise?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:44:29Speaker 04

  This is actually child P.

• 1:44:31Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:32Speaker 04

  But you don't see it like that when you're there, but this still happens right now.

• 1:44:35Annie Elise?

  It is.

• 1:44:36Speaker 04

  Yes, this still happens right now in Scientology. There are Scientology schools that have had serious issues with child S A. But in Scientology, you are forbidden to report another Scientologist to the authorities.

• 1:44:51Annie Elise?

  So instead, I just want to make sure I'm understanding this right. And for those listening, I know you abbreviated the word porn. I appreciate that. We know what though, we're gonna just say it because it is so important and it's a very serious issue. So in these auditing sessions and these counseling sessions, other children and adults sometimes would disclose when they would masturbate, when they would have sexual relations, different things like that, oftentimes child to child, which is what I assume you mean by the child porn, because then adults are watching it. It's video recorded, they're recounting these events.

• 1:45:26Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 1:45:27Annie Elise?

  But then even further, there has been child sexual assault.

• 1:45:31Speaker 04

  Yes, as a separate thing.

• 1:45:33Annie Elise?

  As a separate thing in the organization. But because you're not allowed to tell the authorities about another Scientologist, you then go to this counseling session to report it and work through it.

• 1:45:46Speaker 04

  Exactly. So where in fact, you also, like just say you're the predator who did this thing, right? You have to pay for your counseling session where you tell this. So Scientology is making money off of this confession.

• 1:46:00Annie Elise?

  Your trauma and your predatory behaviors and what's happened.

• 1:46:04Speaker 04

  Exactly, and in some way giving you absolution.

• 1:46:08Annie Elise?

  How much is a counseling session?

• 1:46:10Speaker 04

  I think it varies in different Scientology churches. You pay by 12 hours. And so I actually never had to pay for it because, and to be honest, most of the time I was giving it, given interrogations, like I actually wasn't moving up the chart. It was just like side interrogations, just to harass the shit out of me.

• 1:46:29Annie Elise?

  You said, though, that's really interesting. You said that sometimes they'll give absolution to where then they get the repentance that they were after, which is like, no, I'm sorry. You deserve jail time, you freak. Like,

• 1:46:40Speaker 04

  Exactly. And, and nothing is done with the victims.

• 1:46:43Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:43Speaker 04

  Nothing. Like, I've been on the other side of that, and nothing was done. And also, just to like, maybe give another example of what we're talking about, and if this is jumping around, we don't have to.

• 1:46:53Annie Elise?

  No, no, no.

• 1:46:54Speaker 04

  But just about the child P aspect of it. Like, so for example, like, when my parents were leaving, I was being security, or I was being interrogated. The Scientology word is security check, but I'm using a regular word. Okay, so by this woman, who is at least 35 years old, in a room with a video camera on, and she was saying, like, did you violate our rules of sexual behavior? And so I was like, no. And she was like, well, what's that? What are you thinking of? What's that right there? She would be looking at the E-meter. And I would say, well, I kissed this boy. That, that's not violating the rules. And she'd be like, okay, but you were forbidden to date this boy, so we're gonna take this up as a sin. And I was like, well, I don't think it is. But she was like, all right, well, when was it?

• 1:47:39Speaker 04

  It was in this place. Okay. Like, how close was he standing to you?

• 1:47:43Annie Elise?

  Like, all of a sudden, reliving it.

• 1:47:44Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. Like, did you feel his private parts? Like, like, what kind of underwear were you wearing?

• 1:47:51Annie Elise?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:47:52Speaker 04

  Were you wearing those underwear on purpose in case, like, he saw them? Like, so this is me when I was 16 years old. And I, like, I told her over and over, I didn't want to be in the room. I didn't want the video recording on. It doesn't, like, it just didn't matter. But this is something that a Scientologist would not see as problematic. They would see it as her saving me by confessing. And I myself was like, well, I have no right to leave this room. But I had no, my parents weren't there, like,

• 1:48:22Annie Elise?

  That is unbelievable.

• 1:48:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, and this is totally normal.

• 1:48:27Annie Elise?

  Oh, my gosh. That is infuriating.

• 1:48:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, so that still goes on in Scientology today. Whether you're a Sea Org member, or whether you're just a paying member, that still happens in Scientology today. And that's a big, like, on some level, although I don't love adults being there,

• 1:48:46Speaker 04

  Like, I feel like they have some options, not many. I still empathize with them. But being a kid, it's like you have none.

• 1:48:55Annie Elise?

  No, you're just indoctrinated into this cult to where you don't have any other knowledge or way of thinking or like any life outside of that. And so you're almost built and set up for failure.

• 1:49:07Speaker 04

  Exactly, exactly. Yeah, and to have no other options. And so that's my biggest, that's my biggest thing about Scientology. They do other things, like they, they screw over the elderly who work with them. And also, like we touched on briefly, my uncle actually taking these high level Scientology executives who would speak at Scientology events and basically imprisoning them in these trailers and making fun of them, hazing them, making like brainwashing them to go after each other in order to save themselves and literally physically beating them. Like, and this, like, these accounts have come

• 1:49:48Speaker 04

  from multiple different Scientology executives who have left. And there's just so many stories of it that corroborate each other that it's impossible not to believe.

• 1:49:58Annie Elise?

  Do you think your uncle is just, at this point, he's such a powerful person and he has so many people who work for him, who report underneath him to where he just feels untouchable? And like, he's God?

• 1:50:12Speaker 04

  I think so. I think that what you described is right. But I also think that with, you know, he's able to access the internet. He knows what the outside world is saying about him or about Scientology. And I think that gives him a certain level of paranoia.

• 1:50:35Annie Elise?

  It's officially holiday season, which also means it's hosting season, right? So it's time where you look around, you notice things, if you're like me, where like, oh, that little area could use a little bit of a refresh, or, ooh, I think I need a little bit more decorating over in this corner. And for all things hosting, Wayfair delivers high quality, customer trusted products for your home. That you can host and celebrate without having any of the stress. Wayfair helps you create a home that stands up to real life with thousands of products across every style and budget, plus trusted reviews that make shopping just way easier. Think colorful serving bowls, flameless votive candles, a holiday embroidered cotton napkin

• 1:51:16Annie Elise?

  set, just the little touches that make everything feel a bit more elevated and cozy. For me, it's my turn to host this year, so I already knew, looking around, I'm like, okay, my dishes are not going to cut it, my napkins aren't going to cut it. So I was able to get actual holiday dishes at a great value, cute embroidered napkins. I got an amazing new like wood cutting board that you can leave out on the counter. That's decorative too. So many amazing things and the reviews really sold it for me. So when you're refreshing your home this holiday season, Wayfair delivers exactly what you need. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R dot com. Wayfair, every style, every home.

• 1:52:07Annie Elise?

  Let me ask you this. Do you think that your uncle still believes in Scientology as wholeheartedly as maybe he did in the beginning, or do you think through all of this and through seeing what the internet says and not being shielded like so many other members are, that he now understands more or less like, or has doubts about it, but is still rolling with it because it's financially beneficial for him, he has power, like, do you think he knows it's a cult and, or do you think he fully is immersed in a believer?

• 1:52:39Speaker 04

  I feel like that's the question that I have. I, when I learned all of the things that he know, has known this whole time, as a kid, I was like, mm, nope. Like, like, meaning, like, we're taught in Scientology to believe that. Al Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, intentionally dropped his body, which, which has died, and he was moving on to Target 2, where he was gonna heal that planet. He knows that Al Ron Hubbard died a lunatic, like a normal person, and like, it wasn't cute.

• 1:53:13Speaker 04

  He's known that this whole time. I don't see how an adult man who knows all the people who have tried to sue Scientology, who knows, like, like even Ellen Hubbard had certain levels of Scientology that he promised that he would release at some point. Well, Scientology doesn't really have those. Ellen Hubbard didn't actually write those. The executives have come out saying that, yeah, that's not true. Basically, they were just ramblings of a madman. I mean, even the Xenu stuff, which they did release, like, that was a crazy person enough. Anyways, so my uncle knows everything. I don't, like, I just do not see how he could possibly

• 1:53:53Annie Elise?

  Yeah, he's seen behind the curtain.

• 1:53:55Speaker 04

  In every way. Not only that, but you're taught to believe that in Scientology, when you raise up, when you get up to the higher levels, you're, you're gonna get these godlike powers, like telepathy, to exist independent of your body. He can't do that. And he knows that. And he knows he's the main guy.

• 1:54:11Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:12Speaker 04

  So if he can't do it, who, who can?

• 1:54:14Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:14Speaker 04

  So when I was still in, when I was talking to my Aunt Shelley, she was definitely still a true believer.

• 1:54:21Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:54:22Speaker 04

  So it has now been many, many years. Um, I just don't see how he can be. I just, it makes no sense to me.

• 1:54:29Annie Elise?

  That's actually my next question. Everybody always is asking, especially the last several years, where is Shelley? Prove, give proof of life. Let us know that you're okay. To your knowledge, and I know that there has been mention of some sightings of her in Arrowhead here in California, going to the hairdresser, doing things like that.

• 1:54:48Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:54:49Annie Elise?

  And you, based on like your experience and any knowledge you have in the family, when is the last time that someone spoke to Shelley?

• 1:54:58Speaker 04

  I believe it was when her father died in 2007.

• 1:55:03Annie Elise?

  Okay. And the last time that a confirmed sighting has happened, when was that?

• 1:55:09Speaker 04

  In the family?

• 1:55:10Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:11Speaker 04

  I don't know, because we're not all in touch with each other. People in the family have to stay away from me in order to be in touch with other people in the family.

• 1:55:21Annie Elise?

  So nobody, like, speaks under the radar or anything? You don't have to say if you don't want to?

• 1:55:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:55:26Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 1:55:27Speaker 04

  Yeah. Um, but...

• 1:55:30Speaker 04

  I am in touch with people who like, the thing is that like, I get my information from a source that I completely trust, but in order to basically put other people, give other people peace of mind, I would have to tell them everything, but that's, that's not good for, in order to keep this source there and knowing that they can tell

• 1:55:58Annie Elise?

  Of course.

• 1:55:59Speaker 04

  me things.

• 1:55:59Annie Elise?

  I understand.

• 1:56:00Speaker 04

  So, yeah, um, so, but it is somebody who like, it's, I absolutely believe them. And, yeah.

• 1:56:08Annie Elise?

  Do you think that your Aunt Shelley is still involved in Scientology? Or do you think that she has tried breaking away and that's why she's not seen or heard from?

• 1:56:20Speaker 04

  She's absolutely still involved in Scientology. I mean, the base that she is at, where she works, it's basically what they do is they put Scientology scripture onto these titanium plates so that Scientology scripture can survive a nuclear holocaust. So she works at that base, which is a very high level base.

• 1:56:37Annie Elise?

  But I guess my question is, do we know she's even still at that base if nobody has seen her?

• 1:56:43Speaker 04

  Well, nobody outside of, well, so people have seen her.

• 1:56:47Annie Elise?

  When's the last time somebody saw her? Like people on the base, you mean, are seeing her?

• 1:56:54Speaker 04

  Sorry, I'm just like.

• 1:56:55Annie Elise?

  No, that's okay. That's okay.

• 1:56:57Speaker 04

  I mean, I like, could we just like, this is between you and me?

• 1:57:00Annie Elise?

  Yeah, we'll talk, we'll talk after.

• 1:57:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:57:02Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 1:57:03Speaker 04

  But I'm not sure how to answer your question without.

• 1:57:06Annie Elise?

  You don't have to.

• 1:57:07Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:57:07Annie Elise?

  Well, yeah, we'll just talk after.

• 1:57:09Speaker 04

  So.

• 1:57:09Annie Elise?

  So she's still very much involved. She is okay. She's healthy. She's a willing participant.

• 1:57:16Speaker 04

  Yes, absolutely. Yes.

• 1:57:18Annie Elise?

  Okay. And I want to touch on this too, because here's my question with that, I guess, too, is, and I don't know if you have the answer to this, but with so much public speculation out there of. Where's Shelley? David, tell us where Shelley is. What'd you do to her? Did she try to leave? If she is a willing participant and if she is still there and is being seen on the base regularly, why not just, it's giving Scientology a bad rap and bad press, which they obviously are hyper focused on. So why wouldn't she just come forward and say, hey, I'm here, I'm fine. All is good. I'm gonna, you know, retreat for another 10 years.

• 1:57:57Speaker 04

  Right, totally. That's a great question. And the answer is, as much as Scientology cares about bad press, they're also extremely petty and vengeful. And they have certain rules in Scientology with how to deal with critics of Scientology. And if they were to, if they were to bring Shelley forward, in my opinion, I feel like they would be setting a precedent that every time Leah Remini or some other SP critic starts demanding people that they're gonna now have to bring them out and show them. And the truth is that as much as Shelley is missing, there's so many other people who were never involved with any celebrities who would

• 1:58:40Speaker 04

  ask where they were. You know, Shelley wasn't really a public Scientologist. She didn't speak at Scientology events. So there's so many other people who are missing in the same way that Shelley is missing, which really they're just members of a cult. So we could start this for every member of Scientology. And so it would be setting a precedent where Scientology now has to do something for someone who they hate, prove them right, Leah Remini. And then they would have to, what if they didn't do that for the next person? Does that mean that, that they could produce Shelley, but then they couldn't produce this other person? So.

• 1:59:15Annie Elise?

  That's, that's an interesting take. And I saw too, on one of your later, latest videos, you said Shelley was equally as evil as your Uncle David and would barricade and, you know, hold people, like not trap them, I mean, maybe, I don't want to put words in your mouth. And to where I then saw your comment section kind of flooded with like, oh, instead of like, save Shelley, where's Shelley? We're now saying, fuck Shelley. Like, she's a part of this.

• 1:59:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, right. I mean, it's hard to say, like, like, I don't think Shelley's as evil as my uncle, but at this point, like, what does it matter? Like, she was his right hand. Woman, this entire time, from the beginning of when he became the leader, up until like, I guess 2005, but still that's the entire time I was there.

• 2:00:02Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:02Speaker 04

  You know, at that time, children were still being

• 2:00:06Annie Elise?

  Shoot, yeah.

• 2:00:06Speaker 04

  trained in these boarding schools. SA was being covered up in these boarding schools. Adults were, who committed to SA were being sent to the RPF, like the Rehabilitation Project Force, and none of this was reported. So she was a part of everything my uncle did. Everybody there who worked with them knows that this is true.

• 2:00:26Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:26Speaker 04

  She was his right-hand person, knew of everything, and was directly involved in my treatment the entire time. It was Shelley who said, "You may not call your parents."

• 2:00:36Annie Elise?

  Oh my gosh.

• 2:00:38Speaker 04

  It was Shelley who ordered me to get these interrogations and who ordered someone to stand outside my door all the time in case I tried to escape.

• 2:00:45Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:00:46Speaker 04

  So, it's hard, like, she also grew up there. So did my parents. So did my uncle. But at some point, it's like, yes, we all, we all grew up there. It was all horrible. But you have to be responsible for the choices you make in your life, especially if they're illegal.

• 2:01:04Annie Elise?

  Yes, absolutely. And when children are involved, it's like, all, the gloves are off. Like, it's time to like,

• 2:01:10Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 2:01:10Annie Elise?

  figure it out, be an adult, and to your point, be responsible for your actions.

• 2:01:14Speaker 04

  Exactly. Even if you were once a child there, you know, unfortunately, many abusers were also abused. And that's the sad part of the story. And I can have empathy for Shelley because of that. But when she stops being a part of it,

• 2:01:29Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:01:29Speaker 04

  you know, that's when, you know, and this is, this is like on a whole other scale. I mean, this is a whole systemic organization that is, that is doing these things.

• 2:01:38Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:01:39Speaker 04

  All day, every day.

• 2:01:40Annie Elise?

  Oh my gosh, it's awful. It's awful. So I want to just then, you know, leave off with a simple question, which I think I know the answer to. As David Miscavige's niece, do you believe Scientology is a cult?

• 2:01:56Speaker 04

  Yes, Scientology's definitely a cult. Yeah.

• 2:01:59Annie Elise?

  Well, I want to thank you so much for being here today and for speaking with me. Is there anything else that you feel like you want people to know?

• 2:02:06Speaker 04

  No, I mean, I think we covered so much, but I am really grateful for all of the outpouring of support that I get, people who are willing to share my story. I'm really thankful to you and just so many people like, um, I don't know if you've heard of Streets L.A. and but he's out there like I see him actively stopping kids from going into being recruited by Scientology or Jessica Palma Dessa or Aaron Smith Levin actively spreading the word about Scientology. Like, it just means so much to me. When I imagine myself as a kid in there, like, I just wish that these people were around.

• 2:02:42Annie Elise?

  Absolutely.

• 2:02:43Speaker 04

  And so, yeah, I just want to say thank, thank you to you and thanks to everyone else who's sharing my story.

• 2:02:48Annie Elise?

  Thank you. All right. I know today was a little bit longer of an episode, but I really appreciate you guys tuning in. I am so thrilled that Jenna was able to come in studio and share her perspective and her firsthand account of her experience. It's so powerful and so brave. And so, thank you for hearing her story as well. And we'll just keep an eye on this. Hopefully, I don't start having spies outside of my office or my house, but if it happens, you guys know who is to blame, right? If something goes down, you know who is after me for doing this episode. But again, it is one that was too important to not share. So, thank you so much for being here today. And we're gonna

• 2:03:27Annie Elise?

  sign off by saying this. Don't join a cult. Don't join Scientology. All right, guys. Thanks so much. Bye.

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