292: Exclusive: My Interview with Sherri Papini

In a jaw-dropping exclusive, Annie sits down with the one and only Sherri Papini, the woman at the center of one of the most shocking abduction hoaxes in recent memory. Nothing is off-limits as Annie grills her to get to the bottom of what really happened. Is there more to the story than we ever imagined? Buckle up and tune in… you do not want to miss this!🔎Join Our True Crime Club & Get Exclusive Content & Perks 🔎 Join The Club: https://www.patreon.com/annieelise🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to EXTRA deep dive episodes every week on Apple!https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/serialously-with-annie-elise/id1519456164🚩Announcements🚩Want to Catch Annie LIVE on Tour? 🎤 🎟Grab your tickets now for a city near you: https://annieelise.com/pages/tour🌸 SPRING MERCH IS OFFICIALLY HERE! 🌸Shop now at https://annieelise.com/collections/shop-allDon't miss out before your faves sell out! 🛒🌷Sherri Papini book: http://www.sherripapinibook.com/?fbclid=PAQ0xDSwLH02BleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABp66hH5Ponro63N_rGv_yhs3uMuGBK3KLWm4BXsYCH6RjmudKCgtIjraH8wRB_aem_1i3naooKZaSsnaKH-B3p0AFollow Annie on Socials 📸 🩷Instagram: @ _annieelise, https://www.instagram.com/_annieelise/?hl=en💜TikTok: @_annieelise, https://www.tiktok.com/@_annieelise?lang=en🗞️ Substack: @annieelise, https://substack.com/@annieelise💙Facebook: @10tolife, https://www.facebook.com/10toLIFE⭐️Sponsors ⭐️O Positiv: Take proactive care of your health and head to http://OPositiv.com/AE or enter AE at checkout for 25% off your first purchase. Shop Annie’s Closet & Must-Haves! 👗Poshmark: https://posh.mk/Tdbki6Ae0RbShopMY: https://shopmy.us/annieeliseAmazon: https://www.amazon.com/shop/10tolife?ref_=cm_sw_r_apin_aipsfshop_BKN1ZMCMEZHACVFQ2R75&language=en_USDisclaimer ‣ Some links may be affiliate links, they do not cost you anything, but I make a small percentage from the sale. Thank you so much for watching and supporting me.🎙️ Follow the podcast for FREE on all podcast platforms! Apple:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/serialously-with-annie-elise/id1519456164Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/6HdheEH8WeMTHoe5da34qUAll Other Platforms: https://audioboom.com/channels/5100770-serialously-with-annie-eliseGet Involved or Recommend the Case 💬 About Annie: https://annieelise.com/For Business Inquiries: [email protected]*Sources used to collect this information include various public news sites, interviews, court documents, FB groups dedicated to the case, and various news channel segments. When quoting statements made by others, they are strictly alleged until confirmed otherwise. Please remember my videos are my independent opinion and to always do your own research. ••••••••••••••••••Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this video are personal and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organization, employer, or company. Assumptions made in the analysis are not reflective of the position of any entity other than the creator(s). These views are subject to change, revision, and rethinking at any time and are not to be held in perpetuity. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, correctness, suitability, or validity of any information on this video and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use. All information is provided on an as-is basis. It is the reader’s responsibility to verify their own facts.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Annie Elise?

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• 0:27Speaker 01

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• 0:57Speaker 02

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• 1:27Speaker 04

  The mother of two disappeared while jogging in 2016.

• 1:30Speaker 05

  Sherry, I need you to listen to me.

• 1:33Speaker 04

  She was found 22 days later by a trucker wandering on the side of the road, bruised, chained up, and distraught.

• 1:40Speaker 06

  The federal authorities charged Sherry Papini with lying about being kidnapped. It's not an abduction.

• 1:46Speaker 05

  You passed the Paul Dern test, Sherry. No, there's no way. It's true. There's no way. There's no way.

• 1:53Speaker 04

  Just the sheer number of people that were impacted by conduct, including the officers who took time away from other victims to investigate, was enough to make the sentence serious. Sherry Papini, speaking nearly a decade since her name, face, and story hit headlines. I was abducted and I was tortured and the FBI said I'm being followed. Hey, true crime besties. Welcome back to an all-new episode of Serialishly.

• 2:42Annie Elise?

  Did you consent to getting in the car with James that day? Did you consent to any of the branding? Did you consent to any of the physical abuse? Did you consent to being away for three weeks? Did you craft the story with James for your return home?

• 3:03Annie Elise?

  Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back to an all-new episode of Serialishly. With me, your host, Annie Elise. We are here, and you know what we do on Mondays, right? We talk all things true crime in a deep dive kind of way. And look, today's episode was not on my bingo card. I did not expect to be having this episode or this interview, but here we are. Now, let me just kind of give you the backstory as to how we ended up here today. So you may have heard a few weeks ago, if you're a loyal listener, which I know most of you are, but we did an episode a few weeks ago on Sherry Papini. I'm sure you guys know who Sherry Papini is. It was the abduction back in 2016. She was from Northern California. She was abducted and taken to Orange County, California, where she was allegedly held in captivity for three weeks.

• 3:48Annie Elise?

  There, she was branded. She was physically hurt. She was sexually hurt. And it was just horrific. She ended up, after three weeks, being let go and returned home to her husband and her two kids around Thanksgiving. And the whole world was just watching everything unfold and was so happy that she made it out alive. Come to find out, she signs a plea agreement about lying to a federal agent, where it was all a hoax, where she participated in this willingly. She was having an emotional affair. She went down to Orange County to be with her ex-boyfriend, the person she had been having this emotional affair with, and lied about the whole thing. Well, now, as bringing us to the episode a couple of weeks ago, a new docu-series was

• 4:32Annie Elise?

  released with Sherri herself speaking out in which she doubled down and said, "No, it was not a hoax. I was abducted. My ex-boyfriend that I was with down in Orange County was the one who abducted me. All of the torment and all of the abuse that was inflicted during those three weeks was him and him alone. I did not consent to any of it. It was his doing, the branding, all of it." So that's what that new docu-series was about. Her basically sharing that this did in fact happen. It was not a hoax. So we did an episode where we dissected that docu-series a little bit. We talked about the inconsistencies, what didn't really add up. I shared my very honest opinions about what I believe to be true. And about two days after that episode

• 5:17Annie Elise?

  was released, Sherri Papini's team reached out and they asked if I would like to interview her. Now, at first, there weren't any questions that I had. I felt like my opinion was, you know, I opened shut. I thought that the docu-series was not very truthful. I thought that it felt a bit performative, that it was a little bit of a manipulation tactic, possibly to regain custody or to push her book sales so that she could pay off her restitution, which she currently still owes about 300 grand. But then I started thinking, I do have some questions. Like, if this wasn't real, did you give consent when you went in the car? If not, how did he lure you into the car? What was that drive like for six hours from the Bay

• 5:58Annie Elise?

  Area down to Orange County? If you didn't give consent for that, were you restrained in the car? Did he drug you in the car? What was that drive? Like, I just had a lot of follow-up questions. So I decided, okay, let's do it. I will interview Sherri. And so we had been coordinating back and forth for a few days and she is now coming today in studio. We are going to sit down. We are going to talk about everything. I have my tablet with a laundry list of questions that I have and I'm sure some of them are going to be very uncomfortable, but... You know me, I'm your true crime bestie. I've got to ask the hard questions and I have a lot of hard questions to ask. So, we are going to be joined in just a couple of minutes by Sherri Papini, where she is going to answer the questions, share some more information,

• 6:43Annie Elise?

  and we'll get to the bottom of this. And I'm curious to know, after you hear this episode, a lot of you, after the last episode, believed she's still lying. This was all a hoax. She was complicit in this. Like, she's, you know, she's just lying about all this. She wants the attention. It's for other reasons, whatever it may be. After today's episode, I want you to let me know, and I'll put a poll up too. Do you still think she's lying? Or do you think that there is any truth to it? And at first, when they had reached out about the interview, I'll be honest, I wasn't sure if I wanted to give her a platform. I didn't know that that would be responsible, giving her a platform to continue selling what a lot of people believe is a lie. But then, as I stepped back and thought about it, I was like, there are a lot of questions I still have, some difficult questions that I am curious to know the answer to. So, here we are.

• 7:29Annie Elise?

  So, without further ado, we are going to jump right into the interview. Hi Sheri, welcome to the show.

• 7:34Speaker 07

  Thank you for having me.

• 7:35Annie Elise?

  Yeah, my pleasure. So, in your recent docu-series, you discussed the 2016 abduction. And what was once said was a hoax, you say was not a hoax. It actually did happen. Can you talk to me a little bit about that?

• 7:48Speaker 07

  Well, I think that the primary objective for me is to be able to tell my side of the story. And my federal charge is for lying to a federal officer. It is not for faking a kidnapping. And it's really important to understand that while there's narratives spinning out there that I've changed the story, I've never changed the story other than the identity of the person that held me captive. I've always maintained that I was held against my will and kidnapped and tortured. The details of that have never changed. I was just too afraid to come out with the identity of the person that held me captive.

• 8:29Annie Elise?

  So, can you walk me through that day from your perspective, right when you first went out to go for the run?

• 8:36Speaker 07

  So on November 2nd in 2016, I had made arrangements with my ex-boyfriend, the one that I had been secretly having an emotional affair with.

• 8:47Speaker 07

  It was getting to a point where things were getting a lot more serious and I wanted to end the relationship. He wanted to do that in person, he wanted to continue talking, so he said that he wanted to come up into town and meet me in town. Things did not go according to plan. We were supposed to meet up in town with a friend present, and he ended up being at the end of my dirt road.

• 9:12Annie Elise?

  Did he know you were going for a run that morning?

• 9:14Speaker 07

  Yeah. He had been frantically texting me all morning. The energy of it was super unusual. It went from just our casual texting to this very intense, pushy, aggressive text messaging, and in fact, I was really scared. It really concerned me, so I was trying to get my husband to come home and luring him in any way that I could to come home, and he didn't. He blew me off. And I was trying to avoid seeing him because he was so agitated. And there he was at the end of the dirt road, because we'd been talking, so he knew my entire route. He knew where I was going to be and what I was doing.

• 9:51Annie Elise?

  And what was it like when his car approached you? What happened? What did he say to you? Did he just get out? Did he shuffle you into the car? What happened?

• 9:58Speaker 07

  I was really scared. It was alarming, you know, when he pulled up, because it wasn't the plan. We were supposed to meet into town. And when you think about, I mean, you're a female. When you think about seeing another man, you wouldn't be in jogging attire, no makeup, and you know, a sports bra. You would get yourself ready, and there would be a process to that, and it was terrifying, you know, he wasn't supposed to be there. That's not what we had planned. In terms of getting in the vehicle, this is where my case gets really complicated.

• 10:33Speaker 07

  Have you watched the docu-series? Okay, so you hear a lot of people say it's reasonable to conclude that she got in the car, and that's true. It's reasonable to say that I would have gotten in the car, but there's no memory of that. It's also reasonable to say that I would have refused to get in the car. I have no memory of that. The only person that holds that piece is James, and you know, he has an objective to not implicate himself as well. So it's highly unlikely we're ever going to get the truth of the story. Um, but I have no memory of that. I remember getting up to the end of the dirt road and the phone dropping and that's it.

• 11:09Annie Elise?

  What, when did your memory then pick up again? Cause it's a pretty long car ride from Northern California down here to Orange County.

• 11:16Speaker 07

  Absolutely. Um, I've never done drugs. I've never even been drunk before. And the feeling that I had was completely out of body. Like I felt very high. And so I woke up sporadically in the back of the car.

• 11:32Annie Elise?

  You were in the backseat of the car?

• 11:33Speaker 07

  Backseat.

• 11:33Annie Elise?

  Was it a sedan, van?

• 11:35Speaker 07

  I really don't remember.

• 11:36Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 11:37Speaker 07

  Um, woke up in the back sporadically. It was, I was nauseous. It was really hard to keep my eyes open. Um, and the next thing I knew, I was in Southern California and it was dark. So it was very clear that time had passed and and then I was in Southern California.

• 11:53Annie Elise?

  How long would you say that that state of mind lasted of going in and out and feeling like perhaps you were drugged or under the influence of something?

• 12:01Speaker 07

  It's hard to recall, but I probably woke up maybe once or twice in the backseat, you know, just kind of blinking your eyes and trying to stay awake.

• 12:11Annie Elise?

  Were you fully alert when you then were taken into his house?

• 12:15Speaker 07

  I would not say fully alert.

• 12:16Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 12:17Speaker 07

  Um, it was the weirdest feeling. It was very strange. It was like my feet couldn't connect to the pavement. It, it was a very odd sensation. Again, I'd never done drugs before. And he had to put in a hand underneath me to help me walk into the, the house even.

• 12:35Annie Elise?

  And where, when you guys walked into the house, where did he walk you to directly those first few moments?

• 12:41Speaker 07

  Walked me into the house and sat me down on the couch.

• 12:44Annie Elise?

  And you say you dropped your phone. There's been a lot of conversation about how the headphones were placed, that they were so neatly stacked or coiled around. But you say it just, you dropped it in a panic and it just happened to fall that way, correct?

• 12:58Speaker 07

  Yes. And also, I mean, we're relying on where law enforcement took that photograph. But Keith found the phone before law enforcement showed up, so we really don't know if it was tampered with or if it was manipulated in any way. I can tell you my side of the story, which is that the phone dropped. And I remember the sensation of the hair, you know, when you pull hair from something, you know, you have hair, gets stuck in the gummies really easily. But in terms of how the phone was placed, there is, you're right, there's a lot of emphasis on it. And you're relying on a detail from me in a less than two second interaction while I'm already afraid, trying to recall a decade later. And also, we don't know if it was tampered with in any way, because Keith used the Find

• 13:43Speaker 07

  My iPhone app and he found it prior to law enforcement coming to take photographs.

• 13:48Annie Elise?

  Do you think he would have any reason to tamper with it or make it appear manipulated or staged?

• 13:54Speaker 07

  I don't think appearing manipulated or staged, no. But there's a possibility you could have touched it before it was photographed, sure.

• 14:02Annie Elise?

  Do you, do you think that if he touched it and picked it up, that he would then put it right back down with the headphones neatly wrapped around? I'm just wondering what the inference is there?

• 14:12Speaker 07

  Well, there's a lot of emphasis put on it. And so there's a lot of reliance on my testimony for it. And it's just a really difficult detail to recall. And also putting all of the, all of the information on me, like, I, I don't believe that I was the last person to touch it.

• 14:31Annie Elise?

  Okay. So going back to when James walks you into the home, what is he saying to you in those moments? Is he communicating? Is he silent? What's happening? Because I would imagine you were, you had a bunch of questions at that point.

• 14:45Speaker 07

  I would like to say I had a bunch of questions, but I was mostly just frozen. I was terrified. I was not supposed to be there. That was not part of the deal. And where we had flirted here and there about like, it'd be great to come and see you, there was no plan. So it was mostly just a frozen state of, oh, my God, now I'm so far from home. I have no help. I don't feel well. I feel under the influence. What do I do? And James doesn't really say a whole lot. So there wasn't a lot of conversation. It was just a lot of. Scared, I was really scared.

• 15:21Annie Elise?

  Do you think that the reason he abducted you was because he thought that he was helping you? Or because he wanted to be with you and he didn't want anybody else to get in the way of that?

• 15:31Speaker 07

  I think probably a little bit of both.

• 15:33Annie Elise?

  And if he thought that you were consenting to that and that you wanted to be with him as well, or that you were leaving an abusive or dangerous situation, why do you feel that he would feel the need to put you under the influence or potentially drug you?

• 15:49Speaker 07

  Good point. James has a really sick mind. He's a very sick-minded person. Um, in my opinion, I think he struggles with quite a lot of mental illness. Um, in my opinion, uh, when we look at the evidence, when we look at the behavior, when we look at the pattern of behavior, um, there's a sadism there. And there's a really sick-minded person there. So it's difficult for me to try and surmise what he was thinking. I really, I was just terrified of him at that point.

• 16:20Annie Elise?

  From this, from this part, for, I'm sorry, aside from the abduction and this incident, what makes you believe that there's mental illness at play? Or an element, as you put it, as sadism?

• 16:34Speaker 07

  To do the harm to my body that he did without consent. It's one thing to be in that community and to be into that, but there has to be permission. And there was not consent and there was not permission.

• 16:47Annie Elise?

  Okay. Can you talk to me a little bit about James? And I know you guys had a previous background together and some experiences. Aside from, again, aside from this experience, what was that like?

• 16:58Speaker 07

  Well, our relationship ended really abruptly. Um, things, so when I first met him, as you know, it takes a while to get to know someone. And it doesn't all come out right in the beginning. Um, and after a while of our relationship, um, some pretty disturbing things started coming out. And I realized pretty quickly that we weren't. A match.

• 17:21Annie Elise?

  Can you share what those were?

• 17:22Speaker 07

  Particularly in the bedroom. We were not into the same things and it was very uncomfortable. And I'm a really loving, open person. I'm not someone that's going to shame someone or judge someone. I certainly know what I'm not into, though. And it ended really abruptly. In fact, he went to work. He was late to coming home and I packed my car and I left really quickly.

• 17:47Speaker 07

  And that was it. And then we didn't get in touch again until his brother died and he contacted my mom. And we ended up sending condolences to the family. And then at that point, I'd been so sheltered and so controlled in my relationship that when he reached out to me, it wasn't like I had the opportunity to just have friends anymore. It it was like a friend finally. And to me, it was safe to be able to text message him because he lived in Southern California.

• 18:16Annie Elise?

  Did you purchase the burner phone to text him on, or did he purchase that for you?

• 18:20Speaker 07

  He did because I had gotten caught. So there was a time where my ex-husband had caught me text messaging someone that was not acceptable to him. And I'd gotten in trouble.

• 18:30Annie Elise?

  Was it another man that you were having an emotional affair with? Okay. Oh, so he caught you guys talking in the past? So what made it seem like now, aside from just feeling sheltered perhaps and isolated, what made you feel compelled to have James be the one that you're confiding in and that you start this emotional affair with?

• 18:48Speaker 07

  Well, when you have these vulnerable openings for someone and you have someone that knows how to prey on those openings, he's a predator. You know, in my opinion, looking back on it now, it's like I left that door wide open. That's really what it comes down to is he found an opening. I was incredibly vulnerable. I was desperate to have some kind of friendship, some kind of engagement. And he found his way in.

• 19:17Annie Elise?

  And how long did that communication and emotional affair continue before the abduction took place?

• 19:25Speaker 07

  Not very long.

• 19:26Annie Elise?

  Months, weeks, days?

• 19:28Speaker 07

  Months, probably.

• 19:29Annie Elise?

  And were in that communication, were you guys talking about ever running away together, or you leaving Keith and you guys being together and?

• 19:37Speaker 07

  Oh, I was constantly talking about leaving Keith. I was miserable, miserable. Um, sure, there was flirting, there was engagement, you know, I, I wanted someone to talk to, so there were certain things I was doing to keep him engaged.

• 19:48Annie Elise?

  What kind of things?

• 19:50Speaker 07

  Going along with some of the things that he said, or, well, you know, having a relationship with somebody. You participate in having a relationship with somebody.

• 19:58Annie Elise?

  Of course. Were there things, though, I'm, I guess I'm wondering, were there things that he ever said alluding to wanting you and him to run away together, or to get Keith out of the picture so you guys could be together and be happy, or was it more surface level, just flirtatious text messaging, maybe even sexual text messaging, just trying to get an understanding of the context?

• 20:18Speaker 07

  Sure. It was not sexual. I'm not really like that. Um, but sure, it was, it was lightly flirtatious, I would say, but it wasn't sexual in, in manner. Um, I was com- doing a lot of complaining. You know, I was really desperate for help. Um, in my opinion, I had a deeply um, abusive relationship with my ex-husband. And I didn't know what to do. I had two children. I didn't know where to go and who to talk to, who to confide in, and it was really clear that James understood what I was going through and that I really I should consider leaving him. So there was a lot of that.

• 20:53Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm. Now, for such a detailed story, when all of this came to a head, when you were reunited with your family and you came home, there was a very detailed story, all the way down to the women who allegedly had abducted you, what took place. Can you talk to me about how that story was crafted?

• 21:15Speaker 07

  It...

• 21:21Speaker 07

  Everyone in this story were real people. There's no one that's made up. And I had to conceal his identity in some way or another. I was being watched by law enforcement. I was being watched by Keith. I was being watched by James. And the end goal was if I kept him secret, I got to go home.

• 21:39Annie Elise?

  And he made that deal with you? How did you convince him to let you leave?

• 21:45Speaker 07

  Oh, my gosh, there's so many things that came into play there. You know, we had, um, uh, the, what's it called? The, um,

• 21:56Speaker 07

  ransom, I couldn't, sorry.

• 22:00Speaker 07

  The ransom had come out and my husband was on the news everywhere. It was blowing up everywhere. Um, James was seeing on social media that everyone was looking. He had completely broken my body. And I think part of him really, truly understood that even though I was participating in some things, to be able to let off the chain, to be able to have more food, to be able to have certain freedoms. He had to understand that I didn't want it. I mean, there was plenty of times where I said that I didn't want it. And my, you saw the pictures. I was broken. My body was broken. So there had to be a reason, given that he would let me go. And because of the news coverage, it was something that we got to discuss regularly.

• 22:42Speaker 07

  You know, if we want this to go away, um, you have to let me go. There was even like convincing him, you know, like it's gonna be okay. I won't, you know, say anything about you. I'll cover you and maybe we'll talk again at some point. I was gonna say whatever I had to say to get home to my children. You know, I was held captive and tortured for 22 days. I would have told him anything to get back home, to stop what was happening and get back to my babies. So there was a lot and it, it's, it was very strange. The whole thing was really strange, trying to come up with some kind of, um, you know, he had to come up with some kind of alibi. He had to come up with some story. Um, I just wanted to go home.

• 23:29Annie Elise?

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• 24:12Annie Elise?

  because they work directly with ethical factories and they cut out the middleman. So you're giving luxury quality, but without that luxury price tag. I've told you before too, if like you wanna maybe not branch out and do clothes, because that's a little bit personal of a gift, their cashmere thrill blanket, I'm telling you, you will be the favorite daughter-in-law, favorite son-in-law, favorite friend. It is the best gift you could give. Cashmere thrill blanket, mark my words. So go ahead, go check it all out at quince.com. Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too.

• 24:55Annie Elise?

  And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know that it was Serial Sli that sent you. It is the best way to support the show.

• 25:04Speaker 02

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  Upfront payment of $45 for three-month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate for three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com.

• 25:41Annie Elise?

  Did you help him at all craft his alibi and his story so that you both were on the same page with what the story was going to be once you returned home?

• 25:49Speaker 07

  I was just afraid. You know, he kept saying, he's seen the news coverage, he's into crime TV. Like, everyone is seeing crime TV where interrogation videos get leaked and they get put out. So he knew that mine were eventually going to get put out. And he had said, "I'm gonna be watching you. I'm gonna be watching the coverage." So I always had that looming over me. You know, every time I had interrogation with law enforcement, there's a camera on me. And so it was like, I had law enforcement watching me, I had Keith sitting next to me, I had James in the lens of a camera. All I could rely on was telling the truth about what happened to my body, and telling the truth about what happened to me during the 22 days.

• 26:31Speaker 07

  Because if I could do that really accurately, like I did, and just not say his name, then I could continue telling the truth. And that's why I think with law enforcement, my story was so believable. Because when I could recount the injuries, and I could recount how they happened, and I could tell them the details of the room, and I could make sketches of the room, it was very believable, because it made sense. But not being able to say his identity didn't track. And there's this big piece that everybody missed, which is, my primary abuser was sitting next to me in that interrogation. And to him, he was far more interested in finding out whether I had an affair than figuring out what happened

• 27:13Speaker 07

  to my body. There's so much ego wrapped in my case. Ego with law enforcement, ego with my ex-husband, ego with James, ego with me. Everybody had a stake in this case.

• 27:24Annie Elise?

  So were you more afraid to tell the truth because you were scared that James was going to retaliate, or because Keith would think that you were having an affair? Or both?

• 27:35Speaker 07

  Both. Oh my gosh. So many things can be true at the same time. I was more afraid of what my ex-husband was going to do than law enforcement. I mean, going to prison was the safest I've felt in 16 years. I was far more comfortable with the thought of potentially going to prison and lying to a law enforcement officer than dealing with what I was gonna deal with back at home with Keith. And my fears are real. I mean, you're seeing what happened. He took everything from me. And he ensured that my divorce trial happened while I was in prison. I lost everything.

• 28:07Annie Elise?

  Do you think that that divorce trial happened while you were in prison? Just, do you think he was strategic in that? Or it happened because once you came out saying that it was a hoax? And that there wasn't an abduction? That he just wanted to file for divorce as quickly as possible? So that coincidentally aligned with when you were incarcerated?

• 28:25Speaker 07

  No, I mean, when you have a lot of valuable assets, it's fairly common for spouses, when one spouse gets in trouble, to separate the assets. And that was his point, because he has a lot of assets. He also had a lot of control. He made sure meticulously, even though he, as you see in the docu-series, took literally almost all of the social security disability from me. So that's a pretty fair contribution. If one to say, when you get a divorce, that there was contributions on both sides into the money. He removed my name off of all of the assets. So while I was contributing to them, my name wasn't on them, which demonstrates a level of control.

• 29:07Speaker 07

  And when we got married, he wanted to get a postnuptial agreement unfairly signed because he'd caught me texting someone. And so there was all of this coercive control going on in my marriage. And during the separation of assets, I mean, you see in the docu-series, you get a little snippet of what that, that recording said of him. And there's so much more detail of it in the book, which I love, because it really demonstrates what I was going through. But when it comes down to it, if I would have signed this unfair agreement, I would have been able to go home. If I would have just done everything that he wanted and done everything that he said, I'd be home with my kids.

• 29:52Speaker 07

  And I wasn't willing to do that. I wasn't willing to give every ounce of me up anymore. I'd rather go to prison. I was about to go to prison. And then while I was in prison, he didn't have to have the trial while I was there. He didn't have to. He wanted to, because it was a really good strategy on his part to do something where my lawyer couldn't prepare, where I couldn't prepare. I couldn't call witnesses. I couldn't have evidence. And as you know, I have a more interpretive charge, so my testimony is invalid. And he got everything, everything. My family's heirlooms. He still has my grandfather's truck, for God's sakes. The boat that I paid for, everything, the properties. He has everything.

• 30:36Speaker 07

  I got shoes and clothes for my marriage.

• 30:39Annie Elise?

  I want to go back just a little. No, that's okay. And the kids, is that what you said?

• 30:44Speaker 07

  Yeah, we got everything.

• 30:45Annie Elise?

  Now, I just want to go back for a few minutes ago. You had said that when you were explaining everything to the police, that you were telling them what had happened, everything that happened with James. That's why the story, as you put it, made sense and why it all tied together. But rather than because it makes sense, it would just, would it be easier to just say, because that's the truth of what happened?

• 31:09Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 31:10Annie Elise?

  So, and just to confirm, you don't remember giving any sort of consent or to getting in the car with James, to any of the injuries he inflicted, to anything that had to being there for those 22 days?

• 31:23Speaker 07

  No.

• 31:25Annie Elise?

  You had also mentioned that some of his relatives were involved or not necessarily involved in the abduction, but they knew what was going on. Can you share a little bit more about that?

• 31:35Speaker 07

  Yeah, they were. So, the apartment complex was kind of, from my understanding, a little bit of a village. It's not like I had the freedom to go outside. But James explained that there was an uncle at the end of the cul-de-sac and a cousin who had a wife as well at the end of the cul-de-sac. So, they were there. Plus, you know, he, he had to demonstrate a level of control. So, he had to make it known, I have friends in law enforcement. Here's what's going to happen to you. I have people surrounding me everywhere. I have friends everywhere. You know, he, he had that very thug mentality.

• 32:10Annie Elise?

  Okay. And do you believe that's true, that he had friends in law enforcement? To this day, you believe that?

• 32:15Speaker 07

  Sure.

• 32:16Annie Elise?

  Okay. And again, I just want to go back to, to the moment when he allowed you to go and reunite with your kids. I can imagine that that was the best feeling in the world. I'm a mom as well. I can only imagine how, what a feeling that was like and how you probably felt a sense of safety. What was it, though, that?

• 32:35Annie Elise?

  Gave him the confidence to let you go without being fearful that you would tell the police that it was him. You said that he was nervous because the news was everywhere, that your face was everywhere. Everybody knew what was going on. So what made him confident enough to let you leave and not fear that you would tell the police everything that he had done?

• 32:53Speaker 07

  I think James also was well aware of how afraid of my husband I was. And I made that a point. You know, I don't want my husband to find out that I was having an affair. And when I was trying to break off things with James, that's something that I continue to say. You know, Keith is catching me, I'm too afraid. He knew how afraid of Keith I was. And that's what led him to come to Reading. Because he said, if you don't, I'm just gonna come to Reading. I know he works at Best Buy, I know where he lives, I know where you live. So it was like this rock and hard place that I was stuck. I created the situation myself, unfortunately. I really wasn't well enough to understand this internal validation instead of external validation. But he knew how afraid of Keith I was.

• 33:38Speaker 07

  And so there was this insurance for him, knowing that I wouldn't say that I had an emotional affair. I mean, for goodness sakes, in studying my case and getting all of the evidence, there's so many people that heard Keith joking about chopping me up into little pieces and burying me in the backyard and feeding me to the wild boars where we used to go and hunt. I mean, it's in there. He says it himself even. He'd casually joke like that. So I was terrified.

• 34:04Annie Elise?

  Well, you say that James knew that you were so scared of Keith, about finding out that there was an emotional affair, but was that a big enough fear of his, knowing that you would be scared enough about him discovering the emotional affair that you wouldn't talk about to the police, the 22 days of abuse, branding, abduction, all of that?

• 34:26Speaker 07

  Yeah, and I also, I think James's mind is a little broken. You know, he likes doing those things to people. He likes participating in these really sadistic sexual acts. So to him, he almost doesn't necessarily see that much wrong with it, which is part of the problem.

• 34:46Annie Elise?

  But if it's forced, he certainly would know that something's wrong, correct?

• 34:50Speaker 07

  Not when your brain's that broken.

• 34:52Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 34:53Speaker 07

  You know, I think that James suffers from a lot of... Mental illness that really needs help. He really needs help. And I didn't understand that because when we dated, we were so much longer, 20 years had gone by. So whatever happened to him in the process of when we ended our relationship, you know, it's kind of like when someone goes from amateur level to professional level. Whatever happened in those years made him really sick.

• 35:19Annie Elise?

  And do you think that when he finally let you go and he was confident, as you put it, that you were so scared that about Keith finding out about the emotional affair that you wouldn't say anything and that you would stay quiet. But what about the fear of the police interrogating you and trying to get the truth? Did he know you were going to tell this story about two Hispanic women? Did he have any sort of insight or knowledge into that or help you craft that story?

• 35:45Speaker 07

  Not particularly. It kind of unfolded as it went along. You know, I had given a slight indication that I was going to conceal his identity. And for me, I had to do what I had to do as quickly as possible. And I regret it so much, but it was a quick decision made under a lot of pressure. And frankly, my first testimony, I was high still in the hospital. And it was this unraveling of just trying to hold on to if I just talk about what's true. And if I just try and take, talk about the details about what's true, then I could continue talking about it. So I was trying desperately to stay away from talking about the identity of the people that were there.

• 36:30Speaker 07

  I had to come up with something.

• 36:33Annie Elise?

  Did he know that you were going to come up with a story or a different abductor prior to letting you go? Or he just let you go saying, I know she won't talk. She's too scared of Keith finding out, so I'm going to take my chances and roll the dice on this. I'll let, I'll let you go.

• 36:47Speaker 07

  Well, towards the end of captivity, he could have told me to put my hand in a blender and I would have done it. Like I was such a mess. I was, I was completely broken. He broke me mentally. You know, when you, when we talk about solitary confinement to break someone on top of that, I was drugged and I was sexually abused and I was chained to a wall and I was tortured. I was broken.

• 37:14Speaker 07

  I would have.

• 37:18Speaker 07

  I would have done anything that he said at that point.

• 37:21Annie Elise?

  Why do you think he finally let you go?

• 37:25Annie Elise?

  After putting you through so much?

• 37:27Speaker 07

  I think his family was starting to break. I think that the news news story was just getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

• 37:36Speaker 07

  I think everyone was starting to get afraid.

• 37:39Annie Elise?

  Did, do you believe that his family knew that he abducted you, or do you think that they believed he was helping you escape a dangerous marriage?

• 37:47Speaker 07

  No.

• 37:49Annie Elise?

  Did they ever come by the house while you were there? Did they see you? Did they talk with you?

• 37:53Speaker 07

  No one talked to me.

• 37:54Annie Elise?

  But they would come in and just, what, look at you and see you?

• 37:58Speaker 07

  Um, there were times where I was really drugged. There were times where I was um in series of undress and chained to the wall. Really um deliriously.

• 38:08Annie Elise?

  Do you know what he drugged you with?

• 38:10Speaker 07

  Um, no, they read the report at the hospital when my drug results came through and it was a concoction of a lot of things. They still won't give me my records. They won't give me my SART exam, so my rape exam. They won't give me the results of the drugs that did.

• 38:26Annie Elise?

  Why won't they give you that?

• 38:27Speaker 07

  It's a good question. It's a good question.

• 38:30Annie Elise?

  Have you ever tried filing for a FOIA request?

• 38:32Speaker 07

  We've tried everything. I've tried even retrieving my own medical records and I can't. It's my medical records. I, I, I can't.

• 38:41Annie Elise?

  And I, I apologize.

• 38:42Speaker 07

  Something else that we tried? I feel like we tried something else.

• 38:46Speaker 06

  The might of Warner Brothers discovery behind us. And the FBI still refused.

• 38:52Annie Elise?

  To just even release the medical records?

• 38:55Speaker 06

  I think it's very telling that the FBI has not released any records, including any of the summer reports of the interviews with James and James's family.

• 39:05Speaker 07

  So I don't have a report to give you. I can tell you what they said that they found in my blood, but I don't know for sure.

• 39:12Annie Elise?

  I was just more curious if, while you were there, if you remember if it was something that he was forcing you to drink orally? If it was something perhaps he was injecting you with? If it was something, you know, some other agent that he used? Just, I was just curious of what method he was using to drug you.

• 39:29Speaker 07

  I'm gonna say it was mostly in the food.

• 39:31Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 39:31Speaker 07

  Um, there was a little drink that he would give me, give me on occasion. I don't wanna say that it was needles, but it's hard to say. You know, when you're unconscious, you don't, there's a lot of things that you don't know.

• 39:42Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:43Speaker 07

  Um, I don't, I don't really know.

• 39:46Annie Elise?

  Now, to go back to some of the physical pain that he put you through and things he inflicted, a big point of that and what a lot of people are discussing is the branding. And I know that there has been a lot of conversation about the wood burning tool and Hobby Lobby and all of that. Can you just, can you walk me through what, what that was like when it happened, how you came to find out what tool he was using? Why he chose that particular word and I guess just share a little bit about that because as I'm sure you know, there is just a lot of dialogue around that.

• 40:21Speaker 07

  Yeah, um. It's interesting to see that there's so much dialogue around that. I, in my opinion, I don't think it's biblical. I mean, James is not religious.

• 40:37Speaker 07

  It seems to have, there seems to be a lot of emphasis around it being biblical. I don't think it's that. And I think if law enforcement would have done a thorough investigation on him, they probably would have found it somewhere. I mean, in my opinion, I think he still has my hair even. So James is like a memento kind of person. I think that there's some kind of attachment there, but I don't know. You know, he didn't tell me. It wasn't until months and months later that I could even see, look at it, you know, it was so painful. So I have no idea.

• 41:11Annie Elise?

  Just to confirm, you did not give him any sort of direction or advice as to what type of tool to buy, where he could buy it, or what to do with the burning and the branding?

• 41:22Speaker 07

  No, I mean, we'd been talking and it's something that I used to do. I used to woodcraft. It's something that I would regularly have. He'd been on the phone with me at a time or two when I'd gone to crafting stores.

• 41:37Speaker 07

  It was,

• 41:39Speaker 07

  you know, it was heartbreaking hearing all of that. It's heartbreaking hearing that he used something that I had spoken about making a gift, you know, for my husband at some point, something that I used to enjoy, just like running, not having that anymore.

• 41:55Annie Elise?

  You don't run anymore?

• 41:57Speaker 07

  No.

• 41:58Annie Elise?

  I think what, and I'm not sure if you've seen this out there, one of the biggest points of contention, I believe, surrounding the branding is that a typical male may not know to go to a craft store, may not even know what Hobby Lobby is, certainly wouldn't know what a wood branding tool is, and that if someone had the inclination to leave some sort of mark or branding, why not use a utensil or a wire hanger or a barbecue utensil, something of that, why specifically a wood burning tool, which then aligns with, as you know, your Pinterest saves, your pins, your past crafting, and how that's such an overlap of coincidence.

• 42:39Speaker 07

  I don't necessarily think it's a coincidence. I think it's reasonable for him to have been on the phone with me and have talked about the tools, because I talked about it. I talked about the crafting that I had done. I talked about the little things that I had done. And frankly, he did use other tools. I mean, there was different burns in different places for other things. So it wasn't just that.

• 43:01Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm.

• 43:02Speaker 07

  I think what it was for him is it was about the marking and it was about the tattoo. It wasn't necessarily about the tool. Um, you know, I, I don't even think there was Hobby Lobby in Reading at the time. So, um, I think it was, we'd been on the phone and we discussed it and I talked about certain things that I'd used. And it just came to an idea for him. But that's something you'd have to ask him.

• 43:28Annie Elise?

  Well, he would have purchased the tool here in Orange County, correct? Not Reading.

• 43:32Speaker 07

  I, yeah, I have no idea. But the, you know, him going to Hobby Lobby, like, that's not something that I would have provided for him. I'd been on the phone with him a time or two before and we, it's in discussion. So it's reasonable to say that he knew what to do and where to get it, because we'd talked about it, because it was something that was a part of my life. It's not something that I would ever consider to concoct to do anything to my body. It's just something that I would do crafting. It was James that was fascinated by burning someone's skin.

• 44:05Annie Elise?

  And you say the tattoo-

• 44:06Speaker 07

  I used it with wood.

• 44:08Annie Elise?

  You say the tattoo was important to him, but you don't think it has a biblical meaning. Why do you think that tattoo was so important to him? Or why do you think that word was so, carried so much weight?

• 44:18Speaker 07

  I don't know. That's what I'm saying. Like, it would have been great for law enforcement to have done a thorough investigation and known more, but I don't know. It doesn't make any sense to me. And I studied it in prison, after prison, before prison, tried to figure out, make sense of it. You know, it's on my body. What does it mean? And you can't make sense of it. Even law enforcement tried to study it in the Bible and it just doesn't fit. So if it doesn't fit, maybe it doesn't mean that.

• 44:49Annie Elise?

  What, what was the moment, or when was the moment, I should say, when you first felt as though you were going to tell the truth, your perspective of what happened and that it was not a hoax that this was real? When was that moment for you?

• 45:05Speaker 07

  I was starting to get there right after my arrest. So, I'm sorry, I'm smiling because it was like, it was so wonderful. It was relieving to be able to tell the truth finally. And after my arrest, I was staying with Keith Papini's sister, so my sister-in-law Suzanne. And it was like I was finally in this bubble of safety. And I had someone saying, "I love you and no matter what, I'm here. I don't care what happened because you're alive. And I love you so much that you're alive that it doesn't matter. And whatever it is, I'm a therapist. I'll help you work through it." So I had this beautiful environment to start-

• 45:45Speaker 07

  Opening up to telling the details about it. And then the plea agreement came and then Keith signed, tried to get me to sign some really unfair agreements to separate our assets. And I made the decision clearly not to go home. And then I could finally say it. I had an affair and I'm not afraid to say it anymore. And here's what actually happened. Because what I couldn't do was say to Keith Papini, it was an affair. Because that meant losing everything. And particularly losing my children.

• 46:17Annie Elise?

  So what was that conversation like with Keith for the first time? When you said, I have been having, I had an affair with James, but I did not fake my abduction. He truly did abduct me and everything that happened was real. What was his response during all of that?

• 46:31Speaker 07

  He didn't care. He didn't care. Those transcripts are in here. Of everything that he said is in my, in my book.

• 46:38Annie Elise?

  So at that point, he would, when was that conversation?

• 46:41Speaker 07

  Right before I signed the plea agreement, right before he filed for divorce, when he tried to get me to sign away my entire life, all of my rights to everything.

• 46:49Annie Elise?

  And did he believe you when you were telling him that? Or did he think you still?

• 46:53Speaker 07

  Keith never believed me.

• 46:54Annie Elise?

  So he believed that you just were having an emotional affair? That then you went down to have a physical affair? And that you staged it?

• 47:00Speaker 07

  I mean, he says very clearly, he knew that I was lying from day one. What he was trying to do the entire time, because there's six years that went by. Six years of being with my children, being the primary caregiver, loving my children, being home with my children. And for six years, he was meticulously trying to find some way to catch me in a lie. Or to find out whether I was having an affair or not.

• 47:23Annie Elise?

  Because he didn't believe the abduction?

• 47:24Speaker 07

  No, it wasn't about what happened to my body to Keith. Keith did not care that I was injured. He did not care that I was hurt. He cared if I had an affair on him. That was what was most important. He cared about, one, getting on the cameras. And two, whether I had an affair or not. Because it says something about a man's marriage. If a woman's willing to step out, it starts to open the door to the possibility that our marriage was not perfect.

• 47:49Annie Elise?

  Do you think that he cared about the affair and that being the root of it? Because to him, that would explain why everything else around it could have been fabricated? That there would have needed to be a reason for this abduction to have happened? For you to have staged this abduction and that the affair would just have been the root of that? Or do you think that that really is the only? He didn't, he wouldn't have even cared if you faked an abduction? He only cared if you had an affair?

• 48:13Speaker 07

  He only cared if I had an affair. So if another man would have touched me, he would have never touched me again. He wouldn't have cared if I got branded, beat, chained to a wall, starved, drugged, raped? That's not valuable to him.

• 48:34Speaker 02

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• 48:53Speaker 03

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• 49:13Annie Elise?

  Did you tell your children around the same time what had really happened?

• 49:16Speaker 07

  No. Oh, no. My kids are nine and 11. That's not a...

• 49:21Annie Elise?

  But just that it was a, not the details, of course, of what happened, but just that this was real and that you didn't fake this? Because I would imagine, regardless their age and how young they are, they would, I would imagine, be very scared when you were gone for those three weeks. Then to hear that you were complicit in that and that it was fake, that would, I would imagine, confuse them quite a bit to wonder why mommy's away so long. So would, did you then tell them that you did? It wasn't your choice, that you truly didn't want to be away from them?

• 49:48Speaker 07

  Of course. Um, now it's very different. Now my children are forcefully being alienated in every way possible. Plus, I mean, my ex-husband came out with a huge docu-series. After that, my son wasn't even comfortable putting his last name on basketball banners at school. So my children are going through an exceptional amount of emotional trauma at the moment. Um, we're trying to push as hard as possible to get them in therapy, but Keith Papini doesn't believe in therapy. We're trying to get reunification therapy. He's denying reunification therapy. We're trying to get my kids as much help as possible, but until I get my rights back, I can't reach them.

• 50:23Annie Elise?

  What's the process? What's the process to get your rights back?

• 50:27Speaker 07

  Um, so we started the trial last month. And then Keith Papini took the stand and talked for hours upon hours upon hours. So we had to get a continuance. Um, and now the continuance is going to be in August and then the judge can make a ruling. And the, the custody was, um, granted to Keith because I was in prison. It makes reasonable sense to give the custody to the father while

• 50:51Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:52Speaker 07

  the, the, the other parent is in prison. Um, so in order to change those rights, we have to get through a trial to have a ruling from the judge.

• 51:00Annie Elise?

  And what's his argument right now as to why he should continue to have sole custody? I know he had made claims of Munchausen's by proxy. I know he had made claims of unfit parent, just being neglectful and an unfit parent. But what is his current argument now that you're no longer incarcerated?

• 51:17Speaker 07

  Unfortunately, Keith is going to have to answer to his false allegations. There's so much evidence that concludes that that was unfounded. And unfortunately, in family law, um, when you see toxic divorces, just like mine, it's actually quite common for exes to make false abuse allegations. Um, and he's going to have to answer to that. And when you are so stiffly unable to co-parent, you end up losing more custody. And, um, he doesn't follow court orders already. He's continued to say he doesn't follow court orders. And that demonstrates someone that has such issues of control that they're not going to be able to co-parent. And when you demonstrate that, you end up losing quite a lot. So I'm really hopeful and I know that I'm going to get my rights back to my, to my kids.

• 52:03Speaker 07

  It's gonna, it's gonna be a process and it's gonna take a while. But like Judge Barton said, we don't take children for lying. So he has the custody right now, but it's not going to remain all of his. We just have to wait until August.

• 52:16Annie Elise?

  How often are you able to see your kids right now and how, what, how, what are those visits like?

• 52:22Speaker 07

  Right now, I'm very stuck, um, because family court system is very, very, very slow. So I get to see them once a month for an hour, um, supervised. Because that's what Keith Bepini is ordering and studies have shown that supervised visitation when it's unnecessary. It's not good for the children. It's really not. Um, so we're fighting to get more, but even the supervised visitation. He changes it, shifts it constantly. I mean, our last, um, trial concluded with a court order. That had a specified location for me to go to and he's already canceled it and changed it and hired someone privately. So he just, he's not reliable in any way and thinks that he's above the law and can just do whatever he wants.

• 53:06Speaker 07

  And that's going to become a problem for him very quickly. I'm supposed to have phone contact with them every Sunday. He unilaterally changed the schedule and just doesn't answer. Which is called contempt of court. Um, so it's really hard for me. It's extremely hard for me to go. Um, and attempt to mend a co-parenting relationship with someone who just refuses to follow even a court order.

• 53:31Annie Elise?

  What are those monthly visits like with your kids? Do, are, are they? Warm and accepting? Do you feel like you are noticing alienation?

• 53:40Speaker 07

  My son and I were incredibly close.

• 53:47Speaker 07

  Incredibly close. And now he doesn't go. I haven't seen him in months.

• 53:54Annie Elise?

  Oh, you haven't even seen him. The, so the monthly visitations have been canceled as well?

• 53:58Speaker 07

  He, um.

• 54:03Speaker 07

  He's not going. Um, and it's generally. Children.

• 54:11Speaker 07

  It's highly unusual behavior, especially when you had an established relationship with your child. It's a pretty clear sign of alienation.

• 54:18Annie Elise?

  He's making the choice not to come.

• 54:20Speaker 07

  We don't know. I haven't spoken to him, so I don't know. That's what Keith is concluding. We don't know. We haven't spoken to Tyler. My visits with Violet are bubbly and full of glitter and talking about crushes at school, and they're great.

• 54:36Annie Elise?

  Are they allowed to call you outside of Sunday if they want to talk with you? Do they call you?

• 54:41Speaker 07

  I don't know what it's like in the house right now, but given my observation of how my marriage went, my kids don't have access like that. My phone calls with Violet are wonderful. She's always bubbly and bright, and our relationship is still solidly there. There's a lot of unknowns here, though. He's not allowing me to participate in anything, so I can't get to them. There's a lot that I don't know. And as you know, you're a mom. When you have other people observing and the kids don't feel like they have any privacy, if Dad is sitting right there watching everything that you say and manipulating everything that you say, there's not a lot of freedom. I'd imagine my kids are quite intimidated, and I'd imagine that there's a lot going on

• 55:25Speaker 07

  just based on what I went through in my marriage. And, you know, they just... They're gonna get the love of their mother back really soon. And it's gonna be a process, but I'm never gonna stop.

• 55:39Annie Elise?

  Going back to just the dynamic between Keith and your sister, you've alluded to an inappropriate relationship there and there being something perhaps maybe romantic or just something that's a certain kind of closeness. Can you share anything about that?

• 56:00Speaker 07

  Keith and Sheila's relationship, in my opinion, is highly inappropriate.

• 56:04Annie Elise?

  What makes you think that?

• 56:07Speaker 07

  Growing up with a sister who is incredibly jealous of you all of the time, it's like she didn't... She suddenly came into my life when I went missing. And it was... It appeared as if it was very valuable to her to be incredibly clingy to Keith and on the cameras. And just what I witnessed...

• 56:31Speaker 07

  Any female would be uncomfortable with regardless of her status as my sister.

• 56:37Speaker 07

  It was very uncomfortable to be around. I mean, they would regularly joke at dinner tables and things like that about like Sheila being his second wife.

• 56:46Speaker 07

  That's pretty inappropriate.

• 56:47Annie Elise?

  How often would you say they are together? Is she around your kids now? Quite often? Does she have a relationship with you or your parents or anyone?

• 56:55Speaker 07

  So my daughter has mentioned several times about the amount of visits that my sister has with my children. Which is very uncomfortable. I've never allowed my children to spend the night at her house ever and now they regularly do that.

• 57:13Speaker 07

  It's it's very uncomfortable. It's incredibly uncomfortable. My sister is not kind to my parents. And just because you're a child does not give you the right to abuse your parents. And she's incredibly. In my opinion, watching what she does, she's very abusive to my parents and it's.

• 57:31Annie Elise?

  Can you elaborate on that of what how she's abusive to your parents and why you don't allow your children to spend the night? At her house?

• 57:40Speaker 07

  The book talks about that a lot. There's a lot of I feel like the book answers all of the questions that aren't in the documentary. Because we get these little hints of things and then people are just like you like, oh, tell me more. What's what's in there? What's that about? It's it was incredible to be able to write the book. In a way where I I kind of witnessed what people wanted to know and what they wanted to see and. Got to really be unfiltered and raw and not have to. Hold back in any way. My sister and I have a very complex relationship. We were never close. We were close for a short period of time and in that time. It always just seemed like she was inappropriately clinging with my ex-husband.

• 58:27Speaker 07

  That still remains to be generally when.

• 58:32Speaker 07

  You have a family system and you divorced. There's a separation that happens. And they have gotten closer.

• 58:40Annie Elise?

  You've gotten closer with his sister, though, as well, haven't you? So that would be, that could be said on both sides.

• 58:46Speaker 07

  I'm not flirting with his sister.

• 58:47Annie Elise?

  No, of course not, but still, closeness in the relationship to where it's not a clean-cut divorce, where both sides of the family go separately.

• 58:54Speaker 07

  Sure. Um, I understand your theory there. Suzanne is steeped in therapy, right? So when you go to someone for help and there's something going on, and you have someone that's willing to understand a dynamic of a marriage, and then open her home to you, I think that says a lot. When you have someone who's grown up very jealous of you, and very abusive to you, and very horrible to you, and then also alienating your family and alienating your children, it's participating in healthy acts, participating in toxic acts. So there's toxicity going on with Keith and Sheila, and there's something very healthy going on between Suzanne and I. And Suzanne has not alienated herself from her family.

• 59:39Speaker 07

  She's very open to having a relationship with Keith. She's very open to having a relationship with her family. That family system is very harsh. It's assimilate, or you're annihilated. If you don't do what we want, then you don't exist. That's a very toxic, highly inappropriate family system. Whereas my relationship with Suzanne is very open and welcoming, and steeped in solutions and, and unconditional love. It's very different.

• 1:00:09Annie Elise?

  What was your sister Sheila's response when you first returned after the abduction? And when you then later confided in her, I would imagine, about the truth of everything? Were you guys close at that point? Was the relationship already broken? What was her response?

• 1:00:26Speaker 07

  What was her response in what?

• 1:00:27Annie Elise?

  When you returned back and when you told her the truth. Eventually, when you had told her the truth of what had happened.

• 1:00:33Speaker 07

  I don't think I ever got to the truth with Sheila. When we, you know, she, a long time ago, right after the plea agreement happened, or prior, right prior to the plea agreement happening, she posted this public statement saying that I had finally told her that everything was a lie. And that wasn't true. Suzanne was sitting in the room when that discussion happened. And, you know, I lied to law enforcement officers because I was too afraid to tell the truth. And so now, my testimony doesn't have, it doesn't carry the same weight. So I have to back things up with evidence, everything that I say. But we have so many other people that are surrounding me that just get away with

• 1:01:19Speaker 07

  lying about everything and aren't held to the same degree, which is infuriating because then I have to then back up the evidence to support the lie that they had just told about me. And it's pretty, it's a complicated life. It's, it's like I've given, been given a life sentence.

• 1:01:38Annie Elise?

  Now, speaking of that, you were recently on The Vile Files. And they asked you a series of questions. And you mentioned, when he asked about if you were trying to get law enforcement to question the others who either were aware or participated, and you said that you were trying. Can you explain how you're trying?

• 1:01:57Speaker 07

  Well, we have, it's complicated. We have a complicated relationship with law enforcement already. Plus, we have statute of limitations. And because of my charge, it makes it really complicated. But we're trying, I'm trying to find every different appropriate avenue that I can take.

• 1:02:15Annie Elise?

  What steps have you taken to try to push that forward?

• 1:02:18Speaker 07

  Talking to lawyers, trying to find law enforcement that would even take conference with me and speak to me. Trying to figure out what our options are with the statute of limitations and how to move forward with that. We're working on it.

• 1:02:31Annie Elise?

  If there was an officer today or tomorrow who said, "Tell me everything we can charge James," would you want him arrested?

• 1:02:39Speaker 07

  Absolutely.

• 1:02:39Annie Elise?

  And you would tell them everything?

• 1:02:41Speaker 07

  Absolutely.

• 1:02:41Annie Elise?

  And what about everybody who are arguably his accomplices?

• 1:02:45Speaker 07

  Absolutely. There's real culpability in this case, real culpability. I've demonstrated my remorse for mine. I've taken accountability for mine, and I've continued to take accountability for mine.

• 1:02:58Annie Elise?

  There's also some questions out there, and I'm not sure if you've seen it, where people are wondering if there's any concern on your side that James may sue you for defamation or for libel, depending on what's in the book. What do you say to that?

• 1:03:11Speaker 07

  Do you have any idea how excited I would be to have him in court? And what he'd have to stand up against? The proof that I have of it? I, frankly,

• 1:03:23Speaker 07

  I think that that would be interesting.

• 1:03:25Annie Elise?

  That, it's interesting you say that. What kind of proof do you have against him? Because couldn't you arguably take that to law enforcement?

• 1:03:30Speaker 07

  There are injuries that I can't do myself.

• 1:03:31Annie Elise?

  Of course, but I mean, that is circumstantial because it could be argued that you inflicted those yourself. If you had already once admitted that this was a hoax, is there other proof that you could definitively take to law enforcement right now, saying, "He was my captor. He held me against my will, and here's the proof I have"? Or is it all circumstantial?

• 1:03:53Speaker 07

  And to be clear, the words that I signed on that plea agreement were not my words. They were constructed by the federal government. So I have never once admitted that it was a hoax kidnapping. I signed a plea agreement that was constructed by the federal government that stated what they believed happened.

• 1:04:16Annie Elise?

  Yeah, go ahead.

• 1:04:17Speaker 06

  The evidence is very clear. And if you, if you were able to listen to the entire FBI interview, sadly, it's frankly laid out.

• 1:04:26Speaker 06

  The uh, the chain on the wall is still there. The holes where the boards were uh, nailed up, the cover still there. All of that's still there. The cousin admits that he was there and witnessed it. The wife admits that she was there.

• 1:04:43Annie Elise?

  Witnessed the abuse or just the captivity?

• 1:04:46Speaker 06

  While the news coverage was saying, there's a manhunt for her.

• 1:04:49Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:04:50Speaker 06

  We don't know where she is. So the culpability of people not going to law enforcement and we know there's a manhunt. We know where she is. That in itself will certainly indicate that two other people were, you know, accomplices to this crime that was going on. But beyond the abuse that she would be able to show, the evidence in the house was staggering.

• 1:05:12Annie Elise?

  So I guess there's two points to that. There's the evidence that you're saying is still in the house with the chain and uh, which certainly would be indicative of some evidence that the police could use to then move forward with an arrest. But then the culpability aspect of it, of them witnessing you there in the house, that is a piece of it. However, if they were under the impression that he was helping you escape a dangerous marriage. And so it was more of, we don't know, we don't believe he's hurting her. We think he's helping her, so we're staying quiet regardless of there's a manhunt. That's very different than them witnessing abuse or him holding you against your will. Still not okay either way, but of course, one far more dangerous than the other.

• 1:05:51Speaker 07

  It's a complicated case. And unfortunately, because of um, my concealment of his identity, it's an uphill battle for me. But um, evidence is evidence.

• 1:06:03Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm. And how do you guys know that there are still the chains and the holes and all of that to this day?

• 1:06:09Speaker 07

  That last interrogation that I had, that's what they did. So they, they showed the photographs of what they found, um, and they showed that it was still there.

• 1:06:18Annie Elise?

  Why do you believe he hasn't been arrested?

• 1:06:22Speaker 07

  I didn't, I mean, I didn't rat him out. I didn't tell them.

• 1:06:26Annie Elise?

  But even now?

• 1:06:27Speaker 07

  Even now? That is an excellent question. It's an excellent question.

• 1:06:32Speaker 06

  Have you listened to the FBI interview?

• 1:06:34Annie Elise?

  I have not. Not the whole thing.

• 1:06:35Speaker 06

  We're gonna get you the FBI interview.

• 1:06:37Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 1:06:37Speaker 06

  The FBI interview, I actually believe, and this is only my belief, that there was a plea deal done for him to cooperate against Sherry. Because in the interviews, it literally says, "Before you answer a question, let us tell you that if she wanted to be kidnapped, that's not kidnapping. If she wanted to be sexually abused, that's not sexual abuse. So tell us what happened. She wanted to be kidnapped."

• 1:07:03Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:03Speaker 06

  So there is definitely a way that they fed and let him into this. But also on it, the FBI, as they walk through, they say, "There's the pole that she described exactly where she said it was, in this closet. Yes, she wanted me to put that pole up so she could be chained to it. There are holes in this wall. Who put those boards up? I put them up, but she wanted me to put them up. So everything was going back to her."

• 1:07:32Annie Elise?

  So you believe they were leading him into what to say and to say that she was the one responsible for the idea that rather than just say, "You can tell us the truth because you won't be charged if this is the truth."

• 1:07:43Speaker 06

  I believe they should have showed up five years ago when they were first told about, when they were first informed about James, and the lack of them following up five years ago to finding semen in somebody's underwear, leading them there, not necessarily doing their due diligence on his arrest record, which you certainly can.

• 1:08:02Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:08:03Speaker 06

  And seeing that there is some pattern of behavior here. And a woman who is fighting desperately to get back with her children, which even fortunately Keith Papini says how good of a mother she was in those five years, to leave her kids for 22 days to be, asked to be chained to a wall and abused.

• 1:08:25Speaker 06

  Is kind of really unfathomable.

• 1:08:27Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm. Do you believe that there is enough evidence out there? Or that you would be able to get evidence to where they would be able to arrest James and hold him accountable? Aside from the circumstantial evidence? Because at this point, I mean, it's all very compelling, of course. But there's the argument of you willingly participated in this and did it to sell the story or to explain why you were away for three weeks versus it being real. There's not really anything to decipher it definitively one way or another.

• 1:09:00Speaker 07

  I didn't want what he did to my body.

• 1:09:02Annie Elise?

  Of course.

• 1:09:03Speaker 07

  I did not consent to what he did to my body. There should be some responsibility there.

• 1:09:08Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:09:09Speaker 07

  And even so, you know, we've, we hear these conspiracy charges and we hear people that have gotten in the way of an investigation. They knew that I was there. They knew that I was there the entire time. They watched the coverage of it and they didn't tell law enforcement. And then when they interviewed James, he lied as well. But they gave him a way out. They didn't do that when they came to me.

• 1:09:33Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:09:34Speaker 07

  They didn't do the same thing that they did with James. They didn't want to demonstrate any culpability themselves. They knew that James was involved early on in the investigation and they went to Michigan instead. And they could have went to Southern California, but they didn't. There's missteps in law enforcement. They don't want to show any demonstration of their missteps. And now they have this conclusion where I'm stuck. I can't show any of the missteps of law enforcement because I gave false testimony. I can't give a better testimony because I lied to law enforcement before. So they have this like insurance on me now.

• 1:10:12Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm. Have you at all been in contact with James at all since any of this took place?

• 1:10:19Speaker 07

  No.

• 1:10:19Annie Elise?

  No. And I guess my question again, just kind of going back to it is, in your opinion, do you believe that those who saw you there knew what James was doing in a more sinister way? Or do you think that they believed he was helping you escape your marriage from Keith?

• 1:10:38Speaker 07

  Um, I don't know.

• 1:10:42Speaker 07

  I think they knew. In my opinion, I think they knew.

• 1:10:47Annie Elise?

  And you think they just are not coming forward?

• 1:10:50Speaker 07

  Of course not.

• 1:10:50Annie Elise?

  Because they want to protect him?

• 1:10:51Speaker 07

  Yeah, of course not. They're not gonna come forward. They don't wanna...

• 1:10:54Annie Elise?

  What if there was like a reward put up? Or if there was something raised through silent witness to where they would have be, there would be an incentive if they came forward and said, "We witnessed what he did," and it was against Sherry's will? Do you think that they would come forward in that case?

• 1:11:09Speaker 07

  I don't know. I don't know.

• 1:11:13Speaker 07

  I don't know.

• 1:11:15Annie Elise?

  Yeah, it looked like you wanted to say something? Is there something?

• 1:11:17Speaker 06

  They hired a private investigator.

• 1:11:18Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:11:19Speaker 06

  Private investigator went to interview both of them. None of them cracked. I think that it's a little bit deeper. I think that if you're held to protect you from your husband, you don't need to be drugged 24 hours a day.

• 1:11:33Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:11:34Speaker 06

  You don't need to be chained. You don't need to have somebody watching you, watching them when James leaves to go to work.

• 1:11:42Speaker 06

  That person is willing to stay there on their own, it wouldn't be...

• 1:11:45Annie Elise?

  And who was it that watched you when they, when he went to work?

• 1:11:49Speaker 07

  Um, he had an uncle and a cousin.

• 1:11:50Annie Elise?

  And they were, were they there the whole time, or they would just pop in intermittently?

• 1:11:54Speaker 07

  Uh, they weren't in his home. They had their own homes.

• 1:11:57Annie Elise?

  Oh, so they would just watch the home? They didn't go and like sit in the room with you and watch you?

• 1:12:01Speaker 07

  No.

• 1:12:01Annie Elise?

  No, okay. Now, you have said that James used to watch your interviews, that he had said he'd be watching your interrogation, and that that played a big role in your lies because you were scared of telling the truth, and you obviously didn't want to alert him or ha- have him in a position of retaliating. So, what makes you so confident to speak now versus then? Because then you had the, you had law enforcement's protection, arguably the FBI's protection. Now you don't, because you've signed away those rights. So what makes you so confident in speaking against him now and telling your truth?

• 1:12:34Speaker 07

  I'm not afraid anymore.

• 1:12:37Speaker 07

  Simple as that. I'm not afraid anymore.

• 1:12:39Annie Elise?

  What makes you not afraid of him?

• 1:12:42Speaker 07

  There is a lot of eyes on me at every moment. I'm also still on probation, so I'm, um, I'm observed constantly. And if something happens to me, um, everyone's gonna see it.

• 1:12:57Annie Elise?

  Since you've started speaking out, have there been any anonymous or idle threats at all that have come your way that you believe could be from James or from somebody else?

• 1:13:09Speaker 07

  Not particularly. Little drama here and there, but.

• 1:13:12Annie Elise?

  Like what?

• 1:13:13Speaker 07

  Um, little sneers, little people try to send, you know, little things here and there. But no, I got, I got some weird things when I was in prison as well, but no.

• 1:13:24Annie Elise?

  But nothing from James to where he's trying to say, you know, stay quiet or?

• 1:13:29Speaker 07

  I think he's afraid to. If I, if I was in James's position, I would be terrified.

• 1:13:35Annie Elise?

  And you say that he, you think he's afraid that now that the truth is out there that he will be held accountable?

• 1:13:41Speaker 07

  I hope so.

• 1:13:43Annie Elise?

  And what about his family?

• 1:13:46Speaker 07

  I hope so.

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• 1:15:03Annie Elise?

  I want to touch on the story, the version of the story of two Hispanic women abducting you. That, of course, has been a very big point of contention out there. And I've heard where you have shared that it was you were breadcrumbing, trying to get them to look in James' direction and hopefully getting to him at the end result of that. But what do you say to people who are suggesting that there's, when you would see Hispanic women after the abduction, that you would be triggered in public, that you would be anxious and have a breakdown? What do you say to the people who suggest that that's either faking trauma or that there is racial undertones through that?

• 1:15:43Speaker 07

  Well, if I were to tell you that my abductors were Hispanic, that would be something that I, you know, it led the breadcrumb. So let's kind of break that down a little bit, right? So I did that sketch. I didn't know that James's mom was Irish. I was just trying to lead them to James's ethnicity, not necessarily his mom's, right? So I'm making a sketch and I'm telling you, it was Hispanic women, this is what they look like. Now, if I see someone that looks like his mother, you would say that it would trigger me. Knowing that she was there and knowing that she was a part of it, if someone looked like James, it would trigger me. If someone looked like anyone else that was there, it would trigger me. It's not necessarily a Hispanic woman. It was a character that was

• 1:16:27Speaker 07

  there, a person that was there. If it looked like it, it would trigger me. So if I told you that story and you described it, you would then say, oh, Sherri's triggered by Hispanic woman, because it resembled James's mother. It's because I made the attachment to it of saying that they were Hispanic, trying so desperately to lead them to James Reyes, that everyone is attached to that particular detail. For me, anyone that looks like anyone that was involved is super triggering. I'm not triggered by Hispanic people or Hispanic women. It's simply that they looked like the people that were there. It's simply anything that happens that is in relation to there is still very triggering. It's not a race.

• 1:17:10Speaker 07

  It's not, it's never been about race for me. But how would you describe that as an onlooker, knowing that it's something that was part of that sketch? So it's complicated and it's, it's complex, but that's the best way that I can explain it to you.

• 1:17:23Annie Elise?

  Was there anything else that you breadcrumbed, whether it be...

• 1:17:29Annie Elise?

  A description of the vehicle or a description of, aside from the drugging, was there anything else that you tried to share with them aside from the story of the two Hispanic women to try to get them to look into James?

• 1:17:46Speaker 07

  I'm sure there was.

• 1:17:57Speaker 07

  I can't recall. I'm sure there was.

• 1:17:59Annie Elise?

  And are you worried, you said you're not worried about any sort of defamation claims from anyone that you're implicating, correct? Not just James? Do you think the mother, the cousin's wife, anybody would potentially?

• 1:18:12Speaker 07

  They've already said that they were there. I mean, my, what I come forward and say out in the public, it's things that can be backed up.

• 1:18:19Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:18:19Speaker 07

  So I've learned the really, really hard way that from here on out, anything I say has to be backed up. So whatever I choose to share with you or don't share with you, it's based on that. If I say something, it means that I have the evidence to back it up. And if I'm sharing anything on podcasts or in my book or in any facet of my life now, I can back it up.

• 1:18:43Annie Elise?

  Are you, are you nervous for any sort of retaliation in any form from anyone?

• 1:18:49Speaker 07

  No.

• 1:18:49Annie Elise?

  Now that you're publicly speaking out?

• 1:18:51Speaker 07

  No. Everyone has a right to their opinion and that's okay. But I've learned the hard way, everything that comes out of my mouth has to be backed up with evidence and it is and it does.

• 1:19:01Annie Elise?

  What has been the response from the public towards you since this docu-series has come out?

• 1:19:07Speaker 07

  They're really kind.

• 1:19:09Annie Elise?

  Do you think, would you say that the majority of the public now believes this new perspective and this new version of what happened? Or do you think there's still people out there who question the authenticity of it?

• 1:19:21Speaker 07

  I mean, I got my nails done before I came down here and got a hug from someone in the nail salon, so, um, no, people have been very kind. They've been curious. Um, you know, my mom and dad get approached by people a lot more and just like you, they're really curious. They have some other questions about things.

• 1:19:38Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:19:39Speaker 07

  Um, but no, they've been really receptive and really kind. A lot of people are really just heartbroken about the kids.

• 1:19:45Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:19:47Annie Elise?

  For the people who maybe are not believing the news story and believe this was a hoax, that they got it right years ago, that, you know, now the story is changing. I've seen online that there's some allegations that you're coming across as perhaps performative or narcissistic even, and that this is all in an effort to regain custody or to promote the book and to have money or because you, now that the attention has died down years later, you missed that kind of attention. What would you say to them?

• 1:20:17Speaker 07

  I've never been diagnosed as a narcissist, and I've had Psyche Val after Psyche Val after Psyche Val. That's not part of my, um, my profile. This is my opportunity to be able to say my side of the story. Since everything, everyone else has said their side of the story. There's been film after film after article after article ran without me, exploiting me. The industry has made millions and millions and millions of dollars off of me. I have not. I've written a book so that I have the freedom to tell my side of the story and use my voice that everyone else has used. For goodness sakes, in Keith's film, they AI my voice and make me read something that I didn't even write. This is about reclaiming me.

• 1:21:01Speaker 07

  That's why the book is titled Sherri Papini Doesn't Exist. That internet version of me is not me. This is about reclaiming my life and my voice and my ability to do that. In terms of being diagnosed as a narcissist, that is not anywhere in my profile.

• 1:21:19Annie Elise?

  Is there anything that you are comfortable sharing about what's in your profile from all the different Psyche Vals?

• 1:21:25Speaker 07

  Yeah, so I have, you know, we have mental illness, which has a permanence to it. And then we have personality disorders, and that's based on defense structures, and it's about how we choose to live our lives. Um, I've dismantled the majority of my personality disorder. I'm still working on it because it's defense, and when we get wrapped up in defenses, they're there for a reason, and we still dip in and out of them. But I suffer mostly from what's called, uh, self-defeating personality disorder. It's like people pleasing. It's someone that would rather, um, be incredibly uncomfortable than allow the discomfort of others.

• 1:22:02Annie Elise?

  And you said you're actively working through that and you've dismantled a lot of it at the moment.

• 1:22:06Speaker 07

  Yeah, it still exists. I still have defenses. We all do. But it's something that I manage regularly in therapy.

• 1:22:15Annie Elise?

  Do you believe that your actions or signing that plea agreement has caused harm to any survivors of abductions and domestic violence?

• 1:22:23Speaker 07

  Say that again.

• 1:22:25Annie Elise?

  Through signing the plea agreement and signing away that that was a hoax, that you're, whether it was their version of events or yours, do you think that that caused any real harm to survivors of abductions and domestic violence? By saying that it was a hoax and making people question other people who have gone through a very real experience?

• 1:22:44Speaker 07

  No, I think that that's been going on for a very long time and it's very complicated. And I think that the way law enforcement interrogates people should change. And I think that their interrogation style, most particularly people that are survivors of domestic abuse, should change. I think they missed a very big portion of my case. And especially the lead FBI agent. She doesn't have children. She's not married. And she missed that. She missed the big part of my case where I'm in a very abusive, in my opinion, highly toxic marriage. You know, we missed that. And I think that my case, it touches on things that have already been in existence.

• 1:23:27Annie Elise?

  I guess my question is, for example, Elizabeth Smart. We know that she was abducted when she was younger and she was held captive and is a survivor of that. So do you think by you signing away this on this plea agreement and acknowledging that it was a hoax, that it wasn't a real abduction, that then it's opening a door for opportunity for people to not believe others when they are really abducted?

• 1:23:50Speaker 07

  No.

• 1:23:50Annie Elise?

  Thinking that they could potentially be lying about it? And putting into question other people who come forward with similar stories or just within the same vein?

• 1:24:01Speaker 07

  No, I don't think so.

• 1:24:03Annie Elise?

  Okay. Now, for your kids, just I don't want to touch too much on them because I believe that they should be kept separate from this and private. But is there any concern that when they're older and they watch some of this back or they Google things that they're going to either Not believe you or that they're gonna have questions and what if they don't believe you wonder why you willingly left for three weeks and let allowed them to think that you were in danger, why that was maybe more important than being with them if they don't believe that this is true?

• 1:24:35Speaker 07

  I can say wholeheartedly, my children will never believe that I left them on purpose. Ever.

• 1:24:41Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 1:24:42Speaker 07

  Uh, you know, I've always left an environment welcome and open and unconditionally love my children. And if they have questions about it when they're at an appropriate age, of course I'm gonna explore that and of course I'm gonna answer any of their questions and anything that they feel is of course opened and welcomed.

• 1:24:58Annie Elise?

  Do you think that they have, even if they're not asking them at the moment now, because you aren't having a lot of contact with them, do you think that Keith is putting anything in their head and that they do have questions and they just haven't asked yet?

• 1:25:11Speaker 07

  Well, my kids are at the age where technology is everywhere.

• 1:25:14Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:25:15Speaker 07

  So it's likely that they've seen portions of it. Um, it's likely that at school they've talked about it. Um, they're kids, you know.

• 1:25:21Annie Elise?

  Have you had any conversations with them about it?

• 1:25:24Speaker 07

  No. I don't, I don't bring it up. My children are welcome to bring it up with me at any moment, but we don't focus on that. We focus on what little time we get together.

• 1:25:34Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:25:35Speaker 07

  And we're not, we don't talk about that. We talk about glitter and boys and shoes and clothes. You know, we, it's a very, um, it's a loving, wonderful, normal environment. And I look forward to spending more time and opening the door and allowing that engagement with them, um, when they come to me. And, um, I look forward to having a therapist present so we can start working on that together as a family. And I welcome that engagement with Keith as well.

• 1:26:02Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm. For those who have seen the docu-series or for those who have heard that you've written a book, what other information about this would you like to share? Would you, do you want them to know that maybe was left out of the docu-series that you haven't been vocal about, especially for people who may still question the authenticity of everything?

• 1:26:26Speaker 07

  The book really gets down to what I didn't get to go into too much in the documentary. The documentary was incredible and the process was excruciating. And when you watch it, you see me go from very composed to getting more and more frustrated and more and more frustrated towards the end because it was incredibly grueling and very, um, excruciating.

• 1:26:58Speaker 07

  The book, though, I have this ability to be able to talk about what everything felt like, why I came to the choices that I came to, how I came to the choices that I came to, my early childhood that developed the personality that I have as well. Um, because I think there's still a lot of curiosity around that because what happened to me is preventable. What happened to me is something that, um, I still struggle with today. And I'm doing everything that I can to unravel everything that happened still.

• 1:27:33Annie Elise?

  So to everybody listening who may still have questions or speculations and just, you know, some doubt, if I were to just ask you a series of questions, how would you respond if I say, "Did you consent to getting in the car with James that day?"

• 1:27:51Speaker 07

  I wish I remembered.

• 1:27:53Annie Elise?

  "Did you consent to any of the branding?"

• 1:27:55Speaker 07

  No.

• 1:27:56Annie Elise?

  "Did you consent to any of the physical abuse?"

• 1:27:59Speaker 07

  No.

• 1:27:59Annie Elise?

  "Did you consent to being away for three weeks?"

• 1:28:02Speaker 07

  No.

• 1:28:03Annie Elise?

  "Did you craft the story with James for your return home?"

• 1:28:07Speaker 07

  No.

• 1:28:09Annie Elise?

  Is there anything else you want them to know?

• 1:28:22Speaker 07

  I don't think so.

• 1:28:24Annie Elise?

  Okay. Okay. Well, thank you for joining. I appreciate it. I know some of these questions were difficult and I appreciate you. I appreciate you answering them. Thank you. Okay, so can you share about your book, where people can pick that up, what it's called, what it's about?

• 1:28:39Speaker 07

  So the book is titled Sherri Papini Doesn't Exist and you can purchase it on sherri papinibook.com. You can go to Amazon. On Amazon, there is a few books that have written about me, exploitative pieces that people have just kind of punched at. This is written by me.

• 1:28:59Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 1:29:00Speaker 07

  Sherri Papinibook.com is probably the best place to get it because it's direct links for it.

• 1:29:05Annie Elise?

  I do have one last question for you. Why do you still use the last name Papini if you had such a horrible history with Keith and you're rebranding and reintroducing yourself?

• 1:29:16Speaker 07

  It's about to change.

• 1:29:17Annie Elise?

  Okay. All right. Well, thank you so much. Okay, so during that interview, you heard a male voice a little bit and I apologize, he wasn't right next to a mic, so it might have been a bit difficult to pick up at times, but we did our best to amplify it. That is Sherri's producer who sat in on the interview and wanted to share some answers and some questions and, you know, some context as we went along. Now, after the interview, once I stopped recording, the conversation continued a little bit. I wasn't expecting it to, otherwise I definitely would have kept recording. But in that conversation, they both were just sharing with me that they are potentially planning to go after her ex, James Reyes, civilly

• 1:29:57Annie Elise?

  and bring a civil suit against him. They're just trying to find the means to do that. They're also trying to figure out how they would win that, things like that. They also talked more about the custody arrangement and in their opinion, they believe there is parental alienation happening on Keith, that Keith is driving that, her ex-husband. And the reason they said that is because her son, for example, who is not participating in any of these scheduled visitations. He's nine years old and he is apparently using very big grown up words like manipulative. And things like that to where they're like, what nine year old would know that word? He's obviously being coached by Keith. They believe that when they do have phone calls between they, when she does have phone calls between herself and the children,

• 1:30:37Annie Elise?

  that Keith is nearby, either coaching them or intimidating them on what to or what not to say. So they really do believe that there is a lot of parental alienation at play. While Keith, of course, apparently is going against court order, saying he's never going to split 50 50 custody because he's saying, you know, I don't want her around my kids. She's dangerous. She's unpredictable. She's unfit. So I come back with a question to you. What do you guys believe? Has hearing today's interview at all skewed your opinion of Sheri? Do you believe she's being truthful? Do you believe that this abduction was real? Or do you believe that she's lying and that it still was a hoax?

• 1:31:19Annie Elise?

  I talked with her a little bit too, after we stopped recording about the civil suit and about defamation. And if she's worried, and I know I asked this in the episode, but I asked it again. You know, are you worried that any of these people that you're implicating could potentially go after you for defamation or libel because of the book? To which she said, and I thought was very interesting, she said, yeah, but that's also why I'm so careful with my words. And she said, I know what happened. I can share what happened, but I'm also careful with how I say it, which we all know the truth is the truth is the truth. You wouldn't necessarily need to be very careful with your words, in my opinion, if you're telling the truth. Then again, perhaps maybe you are because maybe you don't want to even allude to something that's not true. I don't know.

• 1:32:02Annie Elise?

  But there doesn't seem to be a real fear around any defamation claims. But I think that's kind of where you can get into this argument for both sides, right? Is he not pursuing James, he being the he, is he not pursuing defamation or potentially wouldn't because he really did do this to her and he doesn't want the spotlight or attention on him? He doesn't want to even open that can of worms? Or is it because he was complicit in this? He helped her stage this abduction and he kind of got off scot free as the guy who was helping her and the guy who just went. Along with this while she was the mastermind behind it. So he doesn't want to get implicated in the hoax of it all. I think both sides of it could be true. Right? So it really just comes

• 1:32:45Annie Elise?

  down to public opinion. And when I pushed back a little and asked her to like, what evidence do you have that this is real besides circumstantial evidence? She of course, mentioned the burn marks, the abuse, things like that. But again, is that concrete evidence? No, because he and you at one point easily could have said and did argue that you participated in those acts, that they were consensual, even that it was your idea to, you know, quote, sell the lie. So I don't think that that's hard evidence or proof. And that's really tough, right? Because then how do you prove it did or didn't happen? I don't know that we ever will know the

• 1:33:23Annie Elise?

  truth. I still in my gut, do think that there is more to this in the sense that I don't think she's being entirely honest, not only with me, but also with herself, perhaps. She did mention the the personality disorder, but I understand being intimidated and signing things away with the FBI and signing a plea agreement, saying that you lied to a federal officer. But there's something about the fact that so many other people were aware that she was at his house and that she was with him and didn't say anything despite it being all over the news. I, and this is just my opinion, I could be totally wrong. So please don't let my opinion

• 1:34:02Annie Elise?

  influence you. But I believe that more so is rooted in people thinking that James was helping her escape what he was told was a dangerous marriage. So they all knew that she was there, perhaps, but they all perhaps thought that he was helping her escape something, if that makes sense. And maybe he even thought that as well. I don't know. I don't know. There are a lot of questions I still have. So.

• 1:34:30Annie Elise?

  Let me know what you guys think. I'm curious to know what you think. Let me know in the comments below. Other than that, that is the last time I think we will ever visit Papini Island, but let me know what you guys think and thank you for tuning into today's episode. All right, I will be back on the mic with you very, very soon with more of what's going on this week in the true crime world and more deep dives into other cases. So until the next one, be nice, don't kill people, don't abduct anyone, don't stage any abductions and just be a good human. Okay, bye.

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