353: Jodi Hildebrandt | What Netflix's 'Evil Influencer' Left Out: The Secret Affair & True Motives

Netflix told part of the story — but not all of it. This episode dives into the secrets the documentary left out, including the alleged hidden affair, the cult-like grip Jodi Hildebrandt had over her followers, and the power dynamics happening behind closed doors. The deeper you look, the more disturbing it gets — and it raises one big question: how much was intentionally left unsaid?. If you’re new here, don’t forget to subscribe for weekly deep dives into the darkest true crime cases: youtube.com/@annieelise..🔎 Join Our True Crime Club & Get Exclusive Content & PerksJoin The Club: patreon.com/AnnieElise..🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to both of my weekly true crime series 10 to Life & Serialously with Annie Elise wherever you get your podcasts on the Annie Elise Channel!🍎 Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3WpfSP8 Where you can also unlock access to 100+ and growing extra exclusive deep dives.💚 Spotify: bit.ly/10TLSpotify 🎙️ All Other Platforms: bit.ly/AnnieEliseAudioboom..📸 Follow Annie on Socials Instagram: instagram.com/_annieelise TikTok: tiktok.com/@_annieelise Facebook: facebook.com/@10tolifeSubstack: bit.ly/AnnieEliseSubstack..👗 Shop Annie’s Must-Haves! ShopMY: bit.ly/AnnieElise_ShopMy Amazon: bit.ly/AnnieElise_Amazon. .••••••••••••••••••🚨Disclaimers1️⃣ Some links may be affiliate links, they do not cost you anything, but I make a small percentage from the sale. Thank you so much for watching and supporting me. 2️⃣ Sources used to collect this information include various public news sites, interviews, court documents, FB groups dedicated to the case, and various news channel segments. When quoting statements made by others, they are strictly alleged until confirmed otherwise. Please remember my videos are my independent opinion and to always do your own research. 3️⃣ The views and opinions expressed in this video are personal and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organization, employer, or company. Assumptions made in the analysis are not reflective of the position of any entity other than the creator(s). These views are subject to change, revision, and rethinking at any time and are not to be held in perpetuity. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, correctness, suitability, or validity of any information on this video and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use. All information is provided on an as-is basis. It is the reader’s responsibility to verify their own facts.

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  Hey, true crime besties. Welcome back to an all-new episode of Serialishly.

• 1:48Speaker 04

  Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to an all-new episode of Serialishly. With me, your host and your true crime bestie, Annie Elise. We are in a new year. We are ready to go. We have so much to talk about. I hope you all had an amazing holiday, new year, new years is a new year, new years. I never, whatever, you know, I hope you had a good new year's Eve and a good new year so far. Let's go with that. Okay. Um, we have got so much to talk about. As you can tell, I'm losing my voice a little bit. I didn't have plans to record this episode, but yet here we are because like I always say, true crime never sleeps.

• 2:30Speaker 04

  And you know, who doesn't sleep even more freaking cult leaders. Okay. And today we are talking about somebody who I, you know, through and through, believed years ago was a cult leader, and still to this day, believe that she is a cult leader. And you know what? Maybe I should say wannabe cult. No, I will say cult because she did have a lot of followers and she made a grip of money leveraging those followers and using the word of God and her false prophecies and all of these things to, you know, become some more enlightened being or whatever the hell they say, right? So let me just kind of break this down first and say, before we get

• 3:10Speaker 04

  into today's episode, I do need to give a major, major disclaimer. Okay. We have talked about both Ruby Frankie and Jodi Hildebrandt ad nauseam on this channel. Okay. We have done so many deep dives, so many different angles coming at it. We have talked about them so much and I never thought that I was going to be back on here talking about either one of them. Yet, here we are. And when I say we've talked about them a lot, I'm saying, I'm talking, we have gone over everything from the eight passengers YouTube channel that Ruby and her husband Kevin had created and I, in my opinion, forced her children to participate in a large amount of the time. We've talked about the countless hours of body cam footage that was

• 3:54Speaker 04

  recovered after their arrest. We've talked about court documents. We even went through Sherri Frankie, Ruby's daughter's book, her tell all and her memoir, and talked about a lot of that, which she came out with that book at the beginning of 2025, where she really, in my opinion, in a beautiful way. Details all of her life experiences with Ruby, with Jodi and growing up in that environment. However, something that I really like to do, that if you've been listening to me for a while, you know this about me. Something that I really like to do when I am diving into a case is look through all of the different aspects of it. Honestly, no matter how much I think I know a case or how well I think I know all of the details,

• 4:36Speaker 04

  the nuances, the little drips and drabs that not many people talk about. I just feel like I always want to know more and I always want to dig a little bit deeper. And I truthfully think that a lot of you listening probably can relate to that as a true crime listener and consumer, you know? So that being said, and the reason I am recording today's episode, although again, was not planned, is because Netflix recently released a one hour and 41 minute long documentary focusing solely on Jodi Hildebrandt. This documentary was titled Evil Influencer, The Jodi Hildebrandt Story. Now, at first, I'll be honest with you. I wasn't really sure how I felt about this documentary.

• 5:20Speaker 04

  And I wondered what it could really bring to the table. Was it going to bring any new information to the table? Was it going to actually really cast her as the monster I believe her to be? How much could they truly fit into an hour and 41 minutes? Like, I just kind of had my doubts, especially because it was coming off the heels of, what was the other documentary? Sins of My Mother, I believe it was. Was that right? I'm getting, maybe I'm getting Lori Vallow confused, actually, a little bit here. But there was, no, Momfluencer, sorry. Yeah, that was, I believe, Lori Vallow, Momfluencer, which was the Ruby Frankie documentary. So I was thinking, okay, they've already covered this. What more are they talking about? I was kind of fascinated with the fact that they were going to come at it from the Jodi angle and not the Ruby angle,

• 6:05Speaker 04

  considering Ruby was the social media influencer in all of this. But anyway, my point being, I had my doubts. But at the end of the day, I knew that it was going to, in some way, highlight the very complex person who is Jodi Hildebrandt. How she essentially ran this cult, that she did it with enough conviction to convince many different people to live their lives in accordance with her teachings. And I was fascinated by it. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to give it a watch. Even though I think I know most of this, like, I'm going to give it a watch. So I watched it. Unfortunately, though, because I am so familiar with not only this case, but these two human beings, if you can even honestly call them that, they're like scum of the

• 6:46Speaker 04

  earth, but because I'm so familiar, I not only knew all of the information that was in this documentary, but I saw, I found myself questioning, why'd they leave this out? Why didn't they expand more on Jodi's romantic relationship with Ruby and what Sherry claims to have seen in that bedroom? Why didn't they talk more about her past and teachings and how many couples she truly broke up and came between, all from, what I think truly stems from her own insecurities and personally, her struggles and self-loathing with her sexuality. And they touched on a little bit of it here and there, but not

• 7:28Speaker 04

  in a meaningful way, if that makes sense. I feel like there's so much more to who Jodi was, what made her tick, how, why people even listened to her, and more than that, the appalling things that she did. They focused a lot on the rescue in this documentary, which I absolutely understand why. That body cam footage, the situation itself, the story, it's polarizing. It absolutely is. So I understand why the lion's share of this documentary focused on the rescue of Ruby's children and what that looked like through the body cam footage when they arrived at the house. And I'll, don't worry, I'll go over some of that and I'll show you some of that. But more than that, because it was titled Evil

• 8:10Speaker 04

  Influencer, The Jodi Hildebrandt Story, I was like, oh, great, maybe they will talk about her relationship with Ruby, how she wanted Ruby all to herself, the actual sexual tension and things that allegedly happened. And they didn't. And I get it, sometimes, you know, there's concerns of litigation and things like that, but that's what I'm here for, okay? I'm here to tell you everything. Because if you're like me, anytime you watch one of these documentaries, you also have your phone simultaneously, and you're scrolling and searching and Googling and trying to find out all of the information you possibly can about whatever case you are watching on your screen. So I did all that hard work for you and I'm going to break it all down for you.

• 8:51Speaker 04

  So again, in today's episode, we not only are going to go over everything we already know about Jody, but we're also going to talk about the things that my team and I have been able to dig up over the years. Things that Netflix may not have really touched on or really dove deep into. And we're going to be putting Ruby and the rest of the Frankie family kind of on the back burner in this episode. And we're going to talk about the person who truly was the mastermind behind all of it. Jody freaking Hildebrandt. Now, if for some reason you are listening to today's episode and you aren't familiar with either one of these names that I'm mentioning, that's absolutely okay. I have a full playlist. You can go and familiarize yourself with this case.

• 9:32Speaker 04

  And I also will give you a very, very, very condensed version of the case, just to bring you up to speed. But basically I'll start by saying this. Ruby Frankie was a very well-known wife, mother, and mommy vlogger on YouTube. Back in like the heyday of vlogging and family vlogging on YouTube. Her channel was called Eight Passengers and it documented Ruby, her husband Kevin, and their six children. And it documented things from their day-to-day lives, their trips, their school punishments, private moments that I don't believe should have ever been shared or recorded. And it was like you were getting a lens into this family and they skyrocketed. They had millions of followers. They were making tons of money through sponsorships.

• 10:17Speaker 04

  And even people who didn't typically watch that kind of content, they were just drawn to it. Drawn to their channel into this like peek behind the curtain type of look before anybody else was really doing it. It was years ago, not like tons and tons of years ago, but like a long time ago. Okay, okay. You're contradicting yourself, Annie. Maybe not a long time ago, but like over five years ago. Okay. And I think the channel finally shut down in 2021. Don't quote me on that. Was it? Yeah. And then the arrest happened in 2023. Whatever. Okay. I'm digressing a little bit. And so, anyway, there was something about just seeing that constant day-to-day activity, the ins and outs of this family that people could not look away from.

• 10:58Speaker 04

  But at some point, these regular topical daily vlog-style videos that showed cookie-cutter-type content and was very much reminiscent of like a comfort creator type of content where you're just mindlessly watching, it started shifting from those normal daily vlogs to being way more hyper-focused on parenting advice. And not just parenting advice, but how to parent and punish your children. And I'll take that actually even a step further. The Frankie family, Ruby Frankie, Kevin Frankie and their kids, they were members of the LDS church. So, part of this punishment and advice of punishment was how to punish

• 11:38Speaker 04

  your children in accordance with the LDS church. And I will say this too, not only with mommy vlogging, although it is definitely with mommy vlogging, but vlogging in general, the trad-wife life, the, you know, whatever vlogger you watch or family you watch because it's comfort to you. There is a big segment of that that is rooted in LDS faith. And I want to be very clear, none of this episode or none of this, my opinions regarding Ruby or Jody or anybody is at all, you know, shady towards the LDS faith. I have so many friends

• 12:17Speaker 04

  who are LDS, who are great people, but there is a certain, you know, I want to say this very carefully, there is a certain group or groups, plural, I should say, that break off from the traditional mainstream LDS, and they become more extremists. They-

• 12:38Speaker 04

  Think of Chad Daybell for an example, and not to go off on a tangent about Chad Daybell, but we all know he was obsessed with that book, Visions of Glory, right? He and Jody were both obsessed with that book. So when thinking about Jody, you very easily can compare her to a Chad Daybell in terms of them thinking they are superior. They are the chosen ones. They are preparing everybody else for the second coming. They are the, you know, the living prophecy or prophet or, you know, whatever you would say. And she's just like the female version of that. So my point being that because a lot of these vloggers are LDS,

• 13:17Speaker 04

  the LDS community is huge. And so they had such a loyal following from other LDS members. And so when they started teaching their parenting advice and their punishment advice that they claim was in accordance with LDS teachings, you had so many eyes just glued to them, just watching them and some hanging on their every word until it ended up crossing the line, which we'll get there to. And so anyway, as they have this channel and it's growing in popularity and they're peeling back the curtain even further to where now you're seeing the punishments and you're seeing them withholding food, you're seeing them rip the door off the hinges of the bedroom of one of their sons, making him sleep on a beanbag.

• 14:00Speaker 04

  You're seeing their child who is under six years old forgetting their school, they're forgetting their lunch at school and then saying, well, there's no lunch then for you. Sorry, it's your responsibility. Like, they just kept getting more extreme as every new video was uploaded and people took notice and they started calling it out in the comments, basically being like, what the hell is going on here? Like, this isn't parenting. This isn't, um, regular behavioral correction. Like, what is going on here? And around that same time, Ruby got heavily involved with Jody Hildebrandt, who Jody was a therapist and a self-proclaimed life coach, okay? Also LDS. And Jody claimed that she could heal marriages,

• 14:44Speaker 04

  that she could fix family relationships and she could bring you in To truth, as long as you followed her teachings and as long as you followed her rules. So I don't know how many times have we heard that before when you're like, oh, that's something a cult leader would say like, oh, you have to follow my teachings to be an exalted being. You have to follow my rules. I'll bring you into the light. I'll bring you into the truth. I'll bring you into, you know, divine bliss or whatever the buzzwords are for that chosen cult. That's what Jody did. And so, long story short, things got very culty, very quickly. And the whole situation ended in potentially one of the most disgusting child torment cases that we've ever seen in recent years.

• 15:24Speaker 04

  Truly, it's appalling. And rewatching this documentary and seeing some of that body cam footage and the photos of the wounds, it just brought me right back to when I first heard about it a couple of years ago. And it never gets easier seeing that material. I've seen it so many times, unfortunately, not only in regards to this case, but many others. And it's just so barbaric and inhumane. It never gets easier. But basically, for those of you who aren't familiar, one of Judy's children, her son, escaped Jody's home and ran to a nearby neighbor's house. And when he arrived at this neighbor's house, he was malnourished, emaciated. He had duct tape on his ankles and his wrists. He had wounds that were so deep that they had made a homemade dressing,

• 16:08Speaker 04

  made with like paste and vaseline and cayenne pepper. And he thought it was his fault. He thought that all of those punishments that he had been receiving were because of his bad behavior. This neighbor luckily called the police immediately, although I will say it was the third house that this boy went to. And I don't know what the other neighbors were doing, or if they didn't answer the door, what the hell they were thinking. But thank God, this neighbor called the police and the police came in. They also had been holding her daughter, who was nine years old at the time. I don't want to say captive, but kind of captive, more or less. When they went inside the house, she was sitting by herself inside a closet, also extremely malnourished, shaved head as well.

• 16:51Speaker 04

  Again, I have playlist after playlist. I will link it in the show notes for you. Actually, I will link just like the single deep dive episode to tell you all about the crime itself of what happened with these children. But

• 17:05Speaker 04

  I know the majority of you probably are familiar in some sort of way, or maybe you're here because you watched the documentary. So you do have at least some sort of understanding of the backstory. But again, I want to talk more about Jody, who masterminded this entire thing and her relationship with Ruby, intimate relationship with Ruby. So as all this was exposed, as this boy was rescued and his sister was rescued, who they hadn't even seen each other in a month, yet they were both inside the same home. That's how segregated they were, how just isolated they were from anyone and anything. So this really started bringing up very valuable questions that nobody had seemingly brought up before, especially regarding family vlogging channels

• 17:48Speaker 04

  and posting children's every move and every personal detail online for the world to see without their consent. There's even been laws now put into place that say children aren't content. You, if you're going to post your child and if you're making any type of money, you need to pay them, which side note, a lot of gross influencers here in LA, because that law was passed in California, have fled California and moved to other states that have not started that law, which it's like, we all see what you're doing. You're not fooling anyone. But it really called into question the bigger issue of like, kids aren't content, right? So anyway, like I said, that is just an extremely quick overview of this case. And trust me, it does not even do the complexities of this case any justice at all.

• 18:32Speaker 04

  So I highly recommend catching up on that deep dive and then coming back to this one later, possibly, once you're fully up to speed in the case. But hopefully, again, the majority of you listening are up to speed and you know where we're going. And look, in one of these videos, I actually did do a deep dive into Jody. So I'm gonna play a lot of those clips for you here too, just so that you have a full sense of who Jody was. So if you see my old studio on the screen or my voice obviously sounds different because I'm losing my voice right now, that's why I'm going to be pulling in some of those clips from the previous episode to illustrate who Jody was. So with that, let's really get into who she is and how her very close relationship with her faith has truly brought her to who we now know her as today.

• 19:16Speaker 05

  Teaching about shame. And I, I went to God and I said, people can't understand the word shame. Do you have another word? Can you give me another word? And I heard one day, distorting the truth. And I was like, oh, brilliant, distortion. You cannot, you cannot put welts on your child's legs.

• 19:31Speaker 06

  Then lovingly apply gauze and expect healing. Now, you might help the scars go away, but the spirit has absorbed the hatred and the venom. Popular Utah family vlogger Ruby Frankie was arrested Wednesday. It's been a really interesting experience watching everyone focus on Ruby, and I understand why. But this is Jody. These are Jody's words. These are Jody's ideas. These are over decades old, so.

• 19:55Speaker 05

  If you will stay inside truth, you will not become ill. You just, you just won't. Now, I know there's some people in the audience probably like, "Well, I don't know about that." Try me out. My desire is to spread this throughout the whole entire world. Is that why you've called Jody the mastermind behind all of this?

• 20:14Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 20:15Speaker 04

  It's no secret that Ruby has had her fair share of critics, and rightfully so. For some of her decisions, the way she was exploiting her children regarding making her children content for the entire internet to just watch, judge, comment on, speculate, etc. Combined with a parenting style that many believe goes far beyond just strict parenting. But would she be in the position that she's in today if she had never met Jodi Hildebrandt? And got involved with her company, Connections? Was meeting Jody in some way a catalyst? And what is Connections? Is Connections a cult? Is Ruby, in fact, brainwashed? Not that that makes her any less guilty in any sort of way. But what exactly are they teaching at Connections? How long has this been going on?

• 21:00Speaker 04

  And most importantly, how many other children whose parents were involved in Connections? Have had to endure torture at the hands of Jody or their own parents? This is Connections, according to Jody.

• 21:11Speaker 05

  So let me tell you a little bit about what I've been doing. For the last 20 years, I've been trying to figure out how to help my clientele. I've been working with tens of thousands of people for 20 years. And I've been asking God about how to help heal them from this array of mental and emotional illness, okay? So all of us know that depression, anxiety, suicidality, all these presenting issues and symptoms that come into your office or in your families, or maybe are even inside you. And so I have been on this journey trying to understand how to use principles that are gods in helping people heal.

• 21:53Speaker 04

  So that was a clip from the Eternal Core Conference in April of 2020. In this, Jodi describes how she got to this belief system. Jodi grew up as the sixth of seven children and she described her parents as emotionally shut down and that she didn't realize that as a child, but she does now, saying, and I quote, "They were emotionally completely not available for me or for any of the other children, and so chaos went on in our house a lot and none of us were really allowed to emote, other than to get angry." So she learned how to be really nice, kind, helpful, gracious.

• 22:28Speaker 05

  So some of you who are clinicians are probably like, whoa, she's setting herself up for addiction. Sure enough, I ended up with an eating disorder, right? I started trying to control everything because I had no outlet to emote my emotions. I had nobody there to validate me and say, yeah, that makes sense that when your brother, you know, put you into a pretzel, that that would hurt and that you would want to tell him, "Stop, you don't like that." I wasn't allowed to do that. So I went on my own journey. I went to therapists and tried to figure out, you know, one, what was going on with me, and two, how to heal it. And unfortunately, and I would say inadvertently because I met some lovely people, and what they did is they validated what I'll call my victim. They reinforced me to stay where I'm at and said, "Yeah, you have every right to feel

• 23:13Speaker 05

  this way." And I didn't know any better. I thought that that would help me get better, as if they said, "Yeah, that this is reasonable why you feel the way you do." And I didn't have anyone, at least I didn't hear it in my head, give me a transitional bridge to move over into what I now know is truth. So I would leave my therapy sessions and I would feel heard, but I'd still go back into my eating disorder behaviors and control and being really nice and helpful and friendly. I didn't really heal. My soul wasn't healing. So I went into graduate school, um, sick. And I learned all the principles in graduate school and I went out to work with drug addicts. It was my very first job.

• 23:54Speaker 05

  And as I sat across one of my very first clients, he presented in a very, what I'll call, "adulating" way. He was very narcissistic and he had a tragedy happen to his son. And he became really aggressive with me when I would invite him to look at his own behavior. He's like, "Listen, I just had this tragedy with my son. My son is super sick, and this isn't about me. This is about helping my son get better." And I'm like, "Well, what if your son doesn't get better?" And he went into this place that I will introduce originally called Distortion, and I'm going to talk more about Distortion this afternoon. He went into a place of distortion, and he would get angry at me, which is, this is part of his distortion. He'd get angry at me, he'd want to blame me, he'd want to blame his wife, he'd want to blame God.

• 24:38Speaker 05

  He started blaming all these people. And what I learned as I worked with him is that as I gradually started confronting him with three principles, this is what I learned. Teach him how to be responsible for himself. Teach him how to be honest, and teach him to be humble. So I started working with him.

• 24:58Speaker 04

  And she goes on to describe their relationship as a love-hate relationship, and that he was more on the hate side of things. And then, five years later, this man called Jody and said, "Hey, you've saved my life now. I know it wasn't me. Nobody ever confronted me. Nobody ever invited me to be responsible for my behavior." All of the things. And then she says that based on this interaction and many others, she started to apply these principles.

• 25:22Speaker 05

  When people come into my office, I get a spattering of diagnoses, right? Those of you who are commissioned, you have a spattering of diagnoses. Out in the world, out in the community, we have everything from suicide to gender confusion to depression, to anxiety, to addictions, all different kinds of addiction, control issues, divorce, right? On and on and on. It seems like the world's coming apart at the seams. Okay? This is what I'm experiencing that we're not healing from. Abuse, resentments, fears, feelings of worthlessness, entitlement, depression, anxiety, defensiveness. Okay? And I could make another, you know, four lists of things that we're not healing from.

• 26:06Speaker 05

  Here's the key. This is the key. Responsibility. Responsibility. I am responsible for three things. I've learned this, like I said, over the last decade plus. I am responsible for my own perception, which means my thoughts. And then when I perceive, I then feel emotions. And when I feel emotions, it's because of my perceptions.

• 26:37Speaker 05

  And when I perceive and then feel emotions, then I then choose to behave. And so I'm responsible for that whole process. In everything. Even when I'm depressed. So when I talk to people, they'll say, "Yeah, yeah, that's nice and good, but I have depression." And I'm like, "Okay, wait, stop. You missed what I just said to you." And then they'll say to me, "Are you suggesting that I'm responsible for my depression?" And I'll say, "Yes, you are."

• 27:03Speaker 05

  That's one thing, if you don't know me, I'm really blunt. Really direct. Some people hate that. Some people love that. It's like, "Tell me more." That feels right. Because I'm not suggesting that you're a bad and unworthy person. I'm suggesting that you don't have the skills and the tools to really understand how to apply these principles that are being governed by your choices.

• 27:28Speaker 05

  So there's four principles I want to hone in today on. Choice, honesty, responsibility, and vulnerability. Which means be open, be teachable. I'm hoping that everybody in this room is vulnerable today, that they're open. That you're willing to consider what I'm saying because this is a brand-new modality. Not that responsibility is a new concept, but the way I'm angling it towards mental health is brand-new.

• 27:53Speaker 04

  So if you're depressed, it's your fault. And you're not an unworthy person, but you don't have honesty, responsibility, or vulnerability. And now by addressing these issues, which she says is a brand-new modality that she came up with, which, hello, no, it's not. But if you come to Jodi, she can help you.

• 28:10Speaker 05

  Other principles that I learned is that in order to connect to yourself slash another person, I have to live honest, responsible, humble.

• 28:23Speaker 05

  Because when I'm not honest, responsible, and humble, I am then disconnected. And disconnection manifests like this. Control, aggression, anxiety. These presentations where the person is either unknowingly or deliberately not being willing to take responsibility for those three principles. Their perceptions, their emotions, and their behavioral choices. So I'm either in a relationship, or I'm just in a dynamic. Dynamic just means that you and I are talking, but we're not connecting, right? Everybody here knows what it feels like to connect with somebody. I've been talking to many of you over the course of this morning and this afternoon.

• 29:08Speaker 05

  And numerous of you, you walk away and I'm like, whoa, that person's connected. They're connected.

• 29:14Speaker 04

  The other principles to live with include characters of truth, humbleness, honesty, responsibility, and vulnerability. Or else you are disconnected, and you manifest control, aggression, and anxiety. She goes on to say that she's learned that the only thing she can control are her thoughts, feelings, and behavioral choices, and that she cannot control anything else. And then she uses an example where she talks about a parent-child relationship.

• 29:40Speaker 05

  Oh, I wish I could control them. I wish I could get them to do what I want them to do, and you just can't. But when you try, you then disconnect from them. Because you go into a controlling posture. You go into a dynamic instead of a relationship with them. So people will say, well, if I love this person, then how do I get them to? And I'm like, can you hear how you're going down control lane? You can't get them to. Your job is to speak the truth to them about their responsibility, which is they're responsible for their own perceptions, their own feelings, and their own behavioral choices. So no more of this. You maybe do this because of you, I feel. If you wouldn't have done that,

• 30:24Speaker 05

  then I wouldn't have done this. All of that is called distortion.

• 30:30Speaker 05

  Which means distorting the truth.

• 30:33Speaker 04

  So by controlling others, that is distortion or distortion of truth. And then she says that each and every one of us is responsible for learning these principles for ourselves. And then if you have charge over anyone else, such as children, grandchildren, clients, etc., you have a responsibility to teach them these principles too, so that they too can be released from distortion. Okay. Now, this next part is actually particularly interesting because of how Jody says that God told her about distortion.

• 31:05Speaker 05

  Each of you are responsible to learn these principles for yourself primarily. And then if you have charge over anyone else, children, grandchildren, you know, classes, therapy clients, you have a responsibility to teach them these principles so that they too can be released from what I call distortion. So many of you know this word is shame. I started using the shame word for probably, I don't know, five years, and people were having the hardest time wrapping their head around shame, what shame was. And I was teaching about shame and I went to God and I said, "People can't understand the word shame. Do you have another word? Can you give me another word?" And I heard one day, "Distorting the truth." And I was like, "Oh, brilliant!

• 31:51Speaker 05

  Distortion! Here's what distortion is. I break it into two groups. This is core, you gotta know this. Self-denigrating distortion, self-adulating distortion. Every single one of us goes into distortion."

• 32:07Speaker 04

  So and now the grand finality of what Jody believes to be her purpose and her goal throughout all of this. To me, this is the most grandiose and almost manical rhetoric that reminded me of how authoritarian leaders and dictators are portrayed in movies, giving speeches about taking over the world or something like that. Or even Dr. Evil, I don't know. Take a listen, and if you're watching this over on YouTube, let me know in the comments what you think. Personally, I don't think that she's speaking in metaphor. I think she legitimately wants to spread what she perceives as God's message to her to the entire world.

• 32:41Speaker 05

  And you are scheduled, as am I, to have hard, difficult experiences. And you are being asked by your maker to stay inside truth. If you will stay inside truth, you will not become ill. You just, you just won't. Now, I know there's some people in the audience probably like, "I don't know about that." Try me out. You start living in truth. I don't know anybody who lives in truth that is emotionally and spiritually sick. I don't know anybody. I know thousands of people who have done this. My desire is to spread this throughout the whole entire world, to teach as many people, and therapists, and mental health professionals, and, and health professionals who want to start

• 33:26Speaker 05

  empowering their clients, regardless of where your client has been, if they've had traumas or abuses, they can heal. If they have sinned, if they have been making choices such as, you know, acting out an addiction, acting out contrary to their value system, if that is why they're having distortion, this can heal that as well.

• 33:47Speaker 04

  In that clip, Jody says that if you're living in the truth, you can't get sick, and you can also avoid many other health-related problems. Well, Jody, when you were arrested, your lawyer literally asked for an expedited bond hearing because you were experiencing a life-threatening medical issue. So, was that a choice? Were you living in truth? I don't know. You tell me. One of the things I also found while researching was a comment in the Moms of Truth Facebook group. I took this screenshot myself, which you can see over on the YouTube version, so I can 100% verify this was not edited in any way. But it's a comment under a video of Jody, where someone asks if she has had Botox. And Jody responds, "I have not had any Botox.

• 34:30Speaker 04

  It's called living in truth, the complexion of truth." Okay. Insert mega eye roll here. I can't. I, I just can't with her. And let me just add really quick too here, anytime somebody is talking about their direct connection and speaking to God, about applying something called principles, or being in distortion, or dark spirits, or what's the other one? A suppressed person. All of these things, just for me, in my opinion, cult, cult, cult, cult, cult, cult, cult. Because nobody else uses those words. Nobody else uses those descriptors. It's somebody who is trying to, in my opinion, brainwash and...

• 35:10Speaker 04

  Kind of do some sort of sick mind control over other people. Otherwise, you don't use phrases like that. You definitely don't use verbiage like that. It, to me, just screams cult. I can't say it loud enough. Just my opinion. Don't come and try sue me, Jody.

• 35:31Speaker 04

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• 36:35Speaker 04

  So here's my question. When did all of this start for Jody? Maybe as early back as 2001? Now, I will say this. Netflix does talk quite a bit about Jody and Connections throughout the entirety of this documentary. And it really is difficult to talk about Jody without talking about Connections. They were kind of synonymous. They went together. It was always one with the other. The documentary even talked about the beginning stages of Connections and when it all really began to manifest itself in Jody's close, personal life. However... I really want to take it one step further. And I want to take a second to dive a little deeper into the time in Jodi's life when you can really start to see the gears turning in her head, formulating her master plan.

• 37:19Speaker 04

  And it's when her psychology studies and the LDS church start to intermingle with one another. And it is a huge factor of where she ends up later. In this interview, Jodi discusses her thesis in her studies called, "The Experiences of LDS Women and How Their Culture Influences Manifestations of Their Sexuality." It says, "This presentation is a progress report on the data I have collected so far in my research on the sexuality of Mormon women ages 30 through 50. It contains both quantitative and qualitative analysis, and I will include several findings that have caught me somewhat by surprise. In particular, I have begun to note differences in attitudes toward sexuality

• 38:01Speaker 04

  in women who were raised LDS, yet taken to church by relatives and friends, in contrast to attitudes of those who had a more traditional Mormon upbringing. I have also found striking remarks by women about how much the language used to describe sex and intimacy, especially when they were teenagers, has negatively affected their feelings about their own sexuality." She starts off by saying that she has lived in Utah for 13 to 14 years, and says that she grew up in Arizona and that her family life was fairly rigid LDS. Later on, she got married, and up until that point, she had never questioned her upbringing. But once her marriage dissolved, she says that it was quite a shock to me as my upbringing did not prepare me for that. And then, as she was going through her divorce,

• 38:46Speaker 04

  she started attending the University of Utah, and she was accepted into the Educational Psychology Department. As I began my study there, I met a woman who is a professor of mine, took a class from her, and I divulged that I was LDS. At that point, I didn't realize that that was something I probably should not say up at the descent of the valley. But she was very polite about the church.

• 39:13Speaker 04

  And numerous times we have conversations about the beliefs and she had questions. She was seeing different clients and wanted to know more about the teachings of the church. And I felt like I was somewhat of a representative of the Mormon faith to answer some of her questions. So this professor is asking her questions and she felt like she was the representative of the Mormon faith to answer all of these. So one day she asked me, "I have a client and I would like to know if it is okay for elderly women to masturbate?" And I kind of sat up abruptly. I'd never been asked

• 39:54Speaker 04

  a question like that. And I said, "No, I don't know if that would be all right." And it was at that point that I started really thinking about what the church teaches

• 40:06Speaker 05

  and how the church has influenced me as an individual and my sexuality. And if they would consider each individual woman as a separate entity instead of a big global group of people. And so that probably was the impetus of my wanting to study this particular topic. More questions are needed to be asked. And my desire is to genuinely know and comprehend these women's voices and the meanings they have put to their sexual development.

• 40:37Speaker 05

  From the women who feel silenced because of their religion, to the women who are silent because of the sacredness of their religion, and to the array of women in between, the study is to know them and how they interpret their sexuality.

• 40:51Speaker 05

  I also would like to say that I was quite surprised to find the support that I received was very positive from an array of members, some with leadership positions, some with I always think of the church as a hierarchy, people who maybe don't feel like they have as much power in the church. I have not met to this point any type of negative interactions or comments as far as this topic. Everybody seems to want to understand elderly women and why they, maybe not why, but how they have interpreted their own meanings.

• 41:37Speaker 05

  I chose this particular research because I felt like it would be more,

• 41:43Speaker 05

  it would represent what these women are saying much more than a figure or a fact of a. So we have themes, enjoys touch, and these are just some of the themes that I've come up with thus far. Underneath the themes, you'd have particular categories. Love of spouse, high esteem, trust, fear of sex would be abuse, father, it's sinful. And I left mom's roles open because I'd like to discuss that after Karen gets done speaking. I received a lot of interesting comments on the roles of mothers. Another talk for another time though, I'm sure.

• 42:26Speaker 05

  Underneath the categories would be the particular quotes, statements from the women themselves. So that it reinforces these themes. And the thing that is very important with doing a qualitative analysis is that you go over it constantly. You're always looking for new themes, for new information, for new ways of looking at things. So I will be in constant contact with my participants to make sure that I'm understanding them accurately. And my viewpoint was that the women who were raised outside of the church, well, not outside the church, but were raised as far as their home life, did not have the church in their home life, were reporting to have healthier views of sexuality than women who were raised with mom and dad in the church.

• 43:10Speaker 05

  So to me, it was more of a familial influence, the culture within the family structure. Like I said, which completely caught me broadside. And as I've interviewed the complete 23 women, probably over half of them have this experience where mom and dad were not the primary instructors of the religion in the home. They were trying to convert me, if you will, to the teachings. I feel like I was given more genuine information and beliefs and feelings and values from them once they were put at ease that I did know what they were talking about.

• 43:55Speaker 05

  Another theme was that a lot of the women talked in generalities. There were some that were very explicit, very detailed, but a lot of them spoke in general terms. They would say the word sex and sexuality, but it would always be followed by the word sacred. And I began to question, what exactly does that word mean? Does that mean private and I want to... The word just left me. Anyways, the word sacred, is it a private part of my life? Or is it something that I feel silenced about?

• 44:37Speaker 05

  I do not know exactly what that word means to the women that spoke to me. It's something else that I want to check with them. I'm sure that it means different things to different people. But I found that that word was used numerous times in the interview process. They were comfortable talking about sexuality, but when asked if they would be comfortable talking to a neighbor or a relative, when I probed them a little bit more, it was very difficult for them to say that they would. They wanted to defer to the bishop, state president, to a spouse. And so I pushed a little bit and said, you know, what if they don't feel comfortable talking to these men? And they need a woman's perspective.

• 45:22Speaker 05

  There were probably four or five that said that they just, that would not be appropriate. The church would not condone them talking to them about intimacy, sexuality, because of the sacredness. Five to seven women in each group. I've had three thus far. And it's been fascinating to watch others' meanings being projected outward into the group. Like I said before, I was thinking that people were going to be fairly silent. Give yes, no answers.

• 46:01Speaker 05

  But to my surprise, the groups have been very vocal. And one woman in particular became quite angry as she asserted, leaning over another lady, pointing her finger, "Jane, you are wrong."

• 46:22Speaker 05

  To me, it wasn't about right or wrong. It was showing me how deeply our values are rooted in us and why it can be so difficult to change or alter what is no longer serving us. And also where judgment comes from.

• 46:45Speaker 05

  All of them reported that they are actively wanting and trying to give their children a better, more satisfying picture of sexuality than they received. They want to be more open in answering their questions and actually give them answers to their questions of why, instead of because or the church said not to. But I realize you probably have questions, which I would love your feedback.

• 47:15Speaker 05

  So next year, I intend to be here and give you a final analysis of what it is that I found and what we as members and not members of the church can do with our own children to teach them a more healthy version and form of their own sexuality. Thank you.

• 47:31Speaker 04

  Now, this was in 2001, and her final study was later published in 2003. This is obviously an older recording, but it's crazy to hear Jody, in her own words, talk about this topic and the vast difference in her own actions moving forward. And while listening, it seems like, oh, maybe she did this study, maybe she would want to make a positive change, not to make sexuality or even just basic discussions about puberty and things like that that go along with it very awkward for children, or teach them that it's something to be ashamed of. But no, that is not what she did. So all of that was evidenced by her nieces' interviews with the Mormon Stories podcast. And other news outlets. Now Jodi's niece Jessie was briefly mentioned in the Netflix documentary.

• 48:15Speaker 04

  However, I really want to just take a pause here, just take a beat to show more of this one specific interview that they did. Because it truly highlights two very important things about Jodi. The first being that Jodi was not a positive change that some people thought that she might have been. Not to the people in the LDS church and not to empower people to talk more openly about their sexuality. And the second thing being that Jodi was allegedly harboring these extremist views of hers for quite some time. But more than that, though, it shows that according to Jessie, Ruby's children? They were far from being the first children that Jodi abused and pushed these extremist beliefs on. She did it to her own family members.

• 48:57Speaker 04

  And this wasn't like Jodi and Ruby just met each other and then together they formed these terrifying views of parenting and punishment and fueled one another. Jodi had been doing this for years. And then she brought Ruby into her orbit, or I could say Ruby inserted herself into her orb, into Jodi's orbit. And it was almost like Ruby was her little lapdog, just executing everything that Jodi wanted her to do. All of the ideals, all of the punishments, all of the hatred and self loathing that Jodi had. It was like Ruby was the executioner.

• 49:35Speaker 04

  And that's not to diminish Ruby's involvement in any of this, absolutely not, especially for what happened to her own children. I mean, it's not to excuse that in any way, shape or form. I cannot stress that enough, but I do think that Jodi was the puppeteer here.

• 49:51Speaker 06

  I was, I was giving Book of Mormon's out at school. I had never done drugs. I had never had anything close to sex. I didn't even know, she was convinced I was also masturbating. I was a ma, like I had a masturbation problem. I didn't even know female anatomy people could masturbate. I didn't even know that. But I would, because she was convinced I was also not allowed to use tampons because she was convinced I was masturbating with them, which is insane.

• 50:22Speaker 06

  So things got progressively. This sounds like projecting.

• 50:24Speaker 06

  I don't know if it's rejection. It's so, I know. So. Things got progressively worse and worse and worse because I wasn't getting better. She was, she, she would say, I'm trying to make you so physically uncomfortable that it forces the sin out. And so that's when she started, I had to sleep outside in the snow. That's when I was.

• 50:50Speaker 06

  So when she would lock me in this, in her, she worked in Lehigh. In like the, there was a little side office closet kind of room. It was like a little bit bigger than a closet, but it didn't have any windows. It had like a table, a chair. A, an actual closet. And that's kind of about, that's about it. So that's where I, when I, when I was pulled out of school and I started living with her full time. Because she worked, I went with her to work and that's where I stayed. And sometimes she would lock me in it. Sometimes she wouldn't. Um, but I was not allowed to leave. That was like rule number one, I was not allowed to leave that room. And um, she would have me write out my sins on a piece of paper.

• 51:35Speaker 06

  And every day she gave me the same piece of paper. Um, and I would have to write out my sins. And these sins that I was writing out, I was like, and again, I believed all this. I believed this fully. So I was like, oh, there must be more in me. I'm trying, I'm trying to think of it. Oh, one time I lied to my best friend Scotty. And like, these are the types of things I'm writing out. And then she would come back in, take that paper, read it to me, make me get on my hands and knees and beg for forgiveness. As she read this back to me. And then she was like, no, this isn't it. This is not it. This isn't all. There's more, there's more, there's more. And

• 52:12Speaker 06

  there wasn't. And I would start making things up because I was like, I don't know. And because she was convinced there was more, things got worse and worse and worse. And she said, I cannot be around my mom. I can't ever be around her again because if she told me the sky was yellow, I would believe her. She has this ability to.

• 52:35Speaker 06

  Like alchemy, like, like, just get into your soul. It's like, the, it is horrifying. And there's no real way of explaining it to people unless you've experienced it. And or if you've experienced this level of emotional abuse, there's no way of really like having you. There's no way of understanding it. Um, so I Nar- narcissistic cult leader comes to mind. Uh, yeah, um, I don't know if this is, if this is fully true. But I, from what I understand, she's been diagnosed with many, many, um, issues, including psychopathy. But Jody is the mastermind here, not Ruby.

• 53:18Speaker 06

  Ruby is still responsible and like should be arrested for harming her children for sure. And I'm sure Jody like used that, used what it was already there, which is what she does. She uses what's already there to her advantage. Um, Jody is the, is, is the one doing this. Jo, this is Jody's therapeutic ideas. These are Jody's ideas, um, that she has been doing for over 14 years. This is not new. This is a pattern. Um,

• 53:53Speaker 06

  and I, I cannot, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm just so grateful that these children, A, were taken out of, out of that, that care, but not care, but out of custody from them. She, she believes this. This is the thing that's that she fully believes in her own bullshit. She believes that she is inspired by God. Jody, Jody. Jody, Jody. Yeah. And so when you believe, when you have that level of delusions of grandeur, you are so powerful and so convincing to people.

• 54:35Speaker 06

  And she, and when you, and when you, when you, when you, uh, preface it as a, that I'm doing this because I'm saving their soul

• 54:48Speaker 06

  in a, in a, in a system and in a culture that

• 54:54Speaker 06

  I mean, she's just playing right into it. She's just playing right into those hands of like, of course, I want my child's soul to be saved. Of course. Yeah, no pornography. Pornography is the worst thing is just is so evil. She believes if you watch porn, her belief is if you watch porn one time, you're an addict. And if you're an addict, which that would make most people of the universe an addict,

• 55:24Speaker 06

  then you need surgery.

• 55:27Speaker 06

  Because you are sick and Satan is working through you. And so and I think she I think it also plays into this like

• 55:36Speaker 06

  you are special kind of belief that I think a lot of people like the Mormon church kind of instills, which is something that I had to like really unlearn because I I I held on to this belief for a long time that like, oh, all of the suffering is for a purpose. All of the suffering is preparing me. All of the suffering is is, you know, purifying me. It's making me humble. It's making me teachable, you know, like Job.

• 56:09Speaker 06

  And I think a lot of people justify or rationalize behavior and treatment because of that.

• 56:16Speaker 04

  I'm just speculating here, but one of the things that is so bizarre about this is how much projection Jodi has. In addition to this interview, Jesse also mentioned how much Jodi has criticized the church, how much she hates men, specifically that the vast majority of men are evil, including church leaders, and how some of the leaders are actually idiots, but that Jodi had all of the answers, almost in the way of jealousy or bringing somebody down just because they have what you want. And in Jodi's case, I believe that it was power. Jesse also said one of the most chilling things to me, and it was, if Jodi was born a man, it's terrifying to think about how much power she would have.

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• 57:34Speaker 04

  So clearly, just by listening to a short clip of one of Jesse's interviews, Jody's forms of punishment had been a long-time thing before Ruby ever came into her life. And I'm sure that if you're listening to this episode, you're more than familiar with the way that Ruby's two youngest children were found the day that Jody and Ruby were arrested. I know I touched on it a little bit earlier in the episode, but I'm sure most of you know nuances and the details of that rescue. But again, if for some reason this case is new to you, I just want to briefly remind you how badly these kids were tormented in the care of Jody. According to the warrant, when officers arrived, they observed the wounds and the malnourishment of the child to be severe.

• 58:17Speaker 04

  And he was transported to the St. George Regional Hospital. The child was placed on a medical hold due to his deep lacerations from being tied up with rope and from his malnourishment. In the report, it states they were abnormally thin and weak. The child told medical personnel and police that his wounds were from the rope and that it was used to tie the victim to the ground. The child identified Jody as the one who put the rope around their ankles and wrists, and that she used cayenne pepper and honey as a mixture and smeared it into the wounds as a way to dress the wounds. Duct tape was used to both bind the child and dress the lacerations. Police also found two sets of handcuffs, rope, duct tape, and cayenne pepper and honey paste

• 59:02Speaker 04

  next to medical gauze dressings. In the documents, it also said that Ruby left her three children in the care of Jody. Officers also seized three iPhones and five Mac computers from the house as well as Jody's iPhone. So just as Jesse has said in interviews, Jody is still doing the same thing. I think she's making things up about Ruby's son and honestly trying to make him so physically uncomfortable that he confesses or gets out of his distortion and then goes along with all of the ideology of connections. When I was going through the podcast episodes, just the names alone, I kept thinking, why is there such a focus on children or teens and giving advice to parents about how to, in my opinion,

• 59:44Speaker 04

  control them or shape them to Jody's standards regarding sexuality? And even just that statement alone is so creepy, but so many episodes were about that. What is this obsession about these sexual elements in children? It's absolutely sickening. And again, I think this is serious projection on Jody's part. And I say that because in some of my other videos and episodes on here, when I dove into this a little deeper, she is so completely fixated on men having an obsession and addiction to masturbation, to pornography, to all of these things. But then if we go back to what she wrote in the early 2000s about Mormon women,

• 1:00:27Speaker 04

  about them speaking and coming into their own sexuality, to me, and this is again, just my opinion, it feels like projection because perhaps she was struggling with her own sexuality, her own impulses, things she felt were unpure or sins. And then she started projecting that onto men as though their actions, their urges, their material that they watched in the privacy of their own home was a sin and that it put them in distortion. I think it all stems from her herself. And look, to be fair, this really isn't just something that myself or the internet picked up and has chosen to run with.

• 1:01:07Speaker 04

  There were rumors pretty much from day one that Jody and Ruby weren't just friends or platonic business. Partners, but more so intimate partners. And this is definitely something that I want to take a minute to talk with you about because although Netflix did bring this topic up a little bit, they talked more about how Jodi had always talked down about the LGBT community, which, you know, it really isn't a huge shocker, given her religious beliefs. But still, they did highlight that. She talked down about them a lot. She thought that it was addiction, that you were a predator. If you were, if you ever watched pornography or if you were in the LGBT community.

• 1:01:48Speaker 04

  Also, she's like made a weird comparison between pedos and homosexuals. And it's just like, she's so completely off her rocker, if I'm being honest. But anyway, they brought up how a lot of her teachings on that topic seemed to almost be a projection in and of itself, which that is something that I have said for years. I truly believe, still to this day, and maybe I'm wrong, but I truly believe that Jodi is gay and that she has struggled with it for the majority of her life. And that that is what has caused such deep rooted hatred and disdain for that community. Because she herself feels as though she would never be accepted and that she would be questioned in her faith and her teachings and all of that.

• 1:02:33Speaker 04

  I could totally be way off. Maybe she likes men and penis all the live long day. I don't know, but as we peel back the onion a little bit and learn more about her and Ruby's intimate relationship, which we're about to get to, that's where I stand and that's where I've stood for years. Now, one of the things that the Netflix doc also brought up is how during the time when Jodi was self proclaimed, you know, quote unquote possessed, she had moved in with Kevin and Ruby, right? And somehow that turned into Jodi and Ruby needing to sleep in the same bed with each other, right next to each other. Kevin booted out of the bedroom and Jodi and Ruby sharing the bed together,

• 1:03:16Speaker 04

  which then Kevin ended up being kicked out of the house altogether. So they did touch on the topic a little bit about the intimate dynamic. Between Jodi and Ruby and Jodi's potential self-loathing. But what they didn't mention was that Ruby's daughter Sheri all but confirmed in her book, The House of My Mother: A Daughter's Quest for Freedom, that Ruby and Jodi did in fact have an intimate relationship.

• 1:03:42Speaker 02

  I certainly got weird vibes from Jodi and Ruby. I don't think it's normal at all that a therapist would move into her client's home. I was moving out to college and I hadn't even like left the house yet and she is in my room and in my bed. What was that relationship between the two of them? Ruby tried to be secretive about it and so like I don't, I don't know all the details, but just the vibes that I was getting was that something was strange between them.

• 1:04:11Speaker 04

  Sheri wrote in her book about a time when she came home from college and she walked in on what appeared to be a very intimate setting between the two of them, which I could easily describe it in my own words, but honestly, I want to just pull the exact quote from Sheri's book because it is extremely telling and the way that she sets the scene, it is so much better than what I could even begin to retell. So in her book, Sheri says, and I quote, "The room was bathed in the soft glow of candles. The air was heavy with the scent of lavender and vanilla wafting from the massage oils on the dresser. I quickly grabbed what I needed and got the hell out of there, feeling like I had just walked into someone else's honeymoon suite.

• 1:04:55Speaker 04

  The only thing missing was the rose petals on the bed." And look, just in case you're still in a little bit of denial about that quote from Sheri's book truly meaning that Jodi and Ruby were intimate, Sheri then further went on to say that the two of the women, quote, "condemned queerness very publicly in their connections videos while embodying it privately." Now, like I said, Netflix didn't include Sheri's book or her literal eyewitness accounts of Jodi and Ruby's relationship and walking in on them together. I don't know why, maybe Sheri didn't want to participate in the doc, maybe... Netflix didn't want to include it because of potential litigation with defamation. I have no idea. Maybe they were just too scared to touch it. I truly don't know.

• 1:05:40Speaker 04

  But that was just a very short synopsis of Sherri's book. And one of the many excerpts that I could go on and on and tell you about. But I definitely recommend either checking out her book, or you could even watch the video episode that I did on my YouTube channel last year, where I covered the book in its entirety. It is a very well-done book. I think you should absolutely go support it, buy it, read it if you haven't yet. I mean, it's a direct lens of her account and what it was like growing up in that house and being Ruby's daughter. Now, look, even though Jody and Ruby's relationship is something that has always been a huge topic of discussion, even in my own episodes, we obviously cannot let that take away from what is most important here.

• 1:06:23Speaker 04

  And that is that Jody was a woman whose already extreme and abusive teachings just got even darker. And like a true cult leader through and through, she managed to convince so many people that what she was saying was the truth and that it was literal gospel. And there was a wide spectrum of how she not only inserted herself in people's lives, but the direction and the focuses that she gave. I mean, whether it was by intervening in people's marriages and convincing them that these strange set of rules that she was setting for them would somehow save their marriages, which, spoiler alert, more times than not, it actually completely disintegrated the marriage. Or on the other end of the spectrum, like in Ruby and Kevin Frankie's case,

• 1:07:09Speaker 04

  she would focus on the parent-child relationships and the behavioral issues of the child and the punishment and how to bring them into truth and bring them out of the darkness. So my question is, how many other parents were given this exact same advice? And the things that we show and share and the things that many of you are criticizing and calling abusive are actually things that mental health professionals have counseled us to do. We got accused of child abuse when we sent Chad to Anasazi. Guess what? The first thing that they did was take a bed away. They don't have beds. People are really triggered. And so if you are triggered...

• 1:07:54Speaker 04

  And you're upset because of something Kevin and I have done with our children that is actually working really well for us, then I would invite you to look at it and ask yourself,

• 1:08:10Speaker 04

  what, what is it that I'm projecting onto this situation? Kevin literally says they aren't doing anything wrong and that everything was at the advice of a therapist, which of course that therapist is Jody and this was all to justify their parenting styles to the public. This is just my opinion and speculation, but part of me wonders if for Ruby specifically, there was another element here. It's been speculated that Ruby has some characteristics of narcissism and if we're to pretend that's true and she is, well, wouldn't Jody's entire message and ideology give Ruby the biggest confirmation bias of all time? Because now she's hearing from an expert, an expert therapist in family and marriage-based

• 1:08:51Speaker 04

  counseling, that maybe her ideas of harsh punishment meant that she was actually the best parent, that she was enlightened, she was an enlightened being, she was right the whole time, everybody else is wrong, and she used that as a way to feel justified in her actions and make her believe further that she's doing this for her children to save their souls? And if that's true, what's in it for Jody in all of this? What is her motive in all of this? Personally, I think she saw Ruby as a meal ticket, a Mormon mom influencer with a very large following that Jody could use as a way to spread her ideology and thinking to the world, which yes, I know it's insane, but I can see it. A lot of these Mormon moms in that

• 1:09:34Speaker 04

  community and who follow the LDS faith, loved Ruby's family, loved watching the passengers videos, idolized them until the parenting styles got a little bit controversial, but loved them. So if Jody were to step into that and say, I'm the family counselor, I'm the family therapist, this family trusts me. Don't you think that these Mormon mothers who maybe were wannabe bloggers, maybe not, maybe just idolized from afar this family, but don't you think that if they were to bear witness to all of that, it would carry weight? With them so that if they were having issues within their own families, within their own marriages, they could reach out to Jodi and say, oh, my gosh, Jodi, who helped Ruby Frankie's family, who works with them, who works with the Eight Passengers Channel,

• 1:10:18Speaker 04

  she's going to help my family. It's only X amount of dollars. Write the check. Let her help us. It seems like a very smart tactic and honestly, not very far fetched, in my opinion. Now, I know that this video is more so talking about the things that Netflix did not cover in the doc, but I do just have to give them a quick shout out for one thing while we're on the topic of these people writing Jodi a check. Because Netflix mentioned that Jodi's monthly income was estimated to be around forty-six thousand dollars. This was in the height of her connections, therapist, life coaching. I mean, the, all the bullshit and the cult that she basically built feels a lot like NXIVM, obviously very different outcome, different restrictions,

• 1:11:03Speaker 04

  but where you have people buying courses, doing one-on-one therapy, retreats, all of these things, and you're raking in about forty-six grand a month, which we knew that she was making like beaucoup amount of money back when we first started talking about this case years ago, but there was never a dollar figure that had been attached to it. But with a lot of the people coming forward in this Netflix doc, they started itemizing how much the one-on-one therapy was, how much the group therapy was, what the courses were. And it showed through, I don't know if you want to call it forensic accounting or whatever the heck Netflix did and what the police department did through their investigation, but showed that she was pulling in on average forty-six grand a month. So definitely motivation to continue that money train coming in, right?

• 1:11:48Speaker 04

  And to just get more and more extreme to where people are so reliant on you and hanging on your every word, feeling like they need more therapy, more one-on-ones, more counseling. So they're just constantly pushing money in your direction. One couple in the doc actually even said that they were paying Jodi more money per month than they were spending on their own mortgage, which let that just sink in. She was preying on these desperate people who Were religious, believed in her, believed in her teachings, and she just saw them as her piggy, a personal piggy bank. Oh, I'm gonna make them think that they're in such dire need of help to save their marriage, to save their soul, to save themselves, and they're just gonna have to keep paying me money.

• 1:12:31Speaker 04

  Meanwhile, I'm gonna live in this five million dollar house off the grid and with a freaking dungeon in the basement, basically, the safe where she,

• 1:12:44Speaker 04

  like, just where she did these awful things with these children and just, like, live in her best life. It's sick, is sick, and there is a special place in hell for her.

• 1:12:59Speaker 02

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• 1:14:00Speaker 04

  So at this point in researching this case, I became convinced that this was absolutely, no doubt, in black and white, a cult.

• 1:14:08Speaker 02

  Oh, it's turned.

• 1:14:09Speaker 05

  There we are. Hi, we are live in Mapleton, Utah, at a home of somebody who is learning how to be a mental fitness trainer. And we have Ruby here. Ruby is, is a part of the original ten women that are being trained to become mental fitness trainers. So Ruby, you wanna tell us about what a mental fitness trainer is? Yes, so we are getting mentally fit, the same way your body would get.

• 1:14:39Speaker 06

  Physically fit by running and lifting weights and working with a personal trainer. We are getting ready to be your mental fitness trainer. We're getting truth, really easy to teach. We're, we're making it very simple, boiling it down to principles. That's how you're going to understand truth is really knowing principles, being able to put words to it and help you and you're going to feel so much better.

• 1:15:05Speaker 05

  Absolutely. So I'm just going to span over here. We've got, uh, okay, can't see.

• 1:15:11Speaker 06

  There we go.

• 1:15:12Speaker 05

  Tori and Sheri, how are you feeling about what you're, what you're getting ready to go out and do, teaching truth to the world?

• 1:15:18Speaker 06

  Excited.

• 1:15:19Speaker 05

  So excited.

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  Excited.

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  Yeah. Coming to a town near you. And here's Kim and Jess. Hello. Becky, Liz, Michelle, and then we got, she's got Johnny over there.

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  And, and Johnny.

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  And Johnny. And me. And, and Pam.

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  No, Pam's over here.

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  There's Pam. Hello. Johnny, Johnny is our, um, our, our, uh, male, uh, person who comes in and does the role play for the male so we can practice. So he's a, he's quite talented to, uh, do the role plays with us. So we appreciate Johnny. Johnny's a man of truth as well and he's also a mental fitness trainer. So, so glad that you're, uh, with us and any of you who are interested in becoming a mental fitness trainer, we are going to open that up, uh, to train to the people. So give us a call or email us at [email protected] and, uh, maybe you could come to the next, uh, retreat for the.

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  Come work out with us.

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• 1:16:24Speaker 04

  It has all of the makings of a cult down to a T. And someone who left connections commented about the reasons why she left online. She said, "There are six reasons why I left connections, even though I had already learned good things and prepaid for three months of GROUP, which wasn't over at the time she left." The first one was shame-based learning. She said they drill the material through put downs and labeling. It's even traumatic. For some people and they say if you disagree with them, then you are wrong. Even though they teach you that there's no right or wrong. And they intensely shame you for it, even though they teach against feeling shame. Second is crazy making. They teach you that your reality is off, to not trust your own judgment.

• 1:17:07Speaker 04

  They tell you that you did something that you didn't even do, and when you can verifiably see that you didn't. They gang up on you and aggressively repeat over and over that you are wrong and that you did that thing. And you have to admit it, or they will cut you off their terrible communication until you admit you did this terrible thing. To any people individually in connections, phone calls and in the group setting, you'll all be cut off. They won't let you move on until you admit it. Even if you really don't see that you did that thing. And you can't just admit that you did it. You have to show that you feel really bad about it, using the steps of repentance, but in a twisted way. It's confusing because the principles they are teaching are true and good, and yet something feels off. It wasn't until I got disentangled from it that I realized that it feels off.

• 1:17:51Speaker 04

  Because you can't learn from them unless you're willing to compromise your integrity and just comply. The third reason was using God to push their point. Saying if you disagree with them, you are disagreeing with God. The fourth reason is an environment that breeds codependency. Their method is quite effective for helping those with addictions come off of their addiction. It's absolutely amazing. If I had an addiction, I might actually sign up again. Unfortunately, it appears they are trading one dependency for another. Jodi has people working for her that don't get paid. They seem just to be happy that she trusts them with the responsibility. I asked her in conversation how many people she had working for her that she paid, and she evaded the question. She also teaches against individuality.

• 1:18:36Speaker 04

  It's set up for you to remain in it. One lady in my group said it was her last week in the group and then thanked everyone for helping her learn. But then, many women ganged up on her and shamed her for leaving, so she stayed. Those who learn from her in groups and individually, spend about $10,000 per year to connections. And they have done this for years, scared to quit due to their own dependency. It is unacceptable to work on changing what you want to change in your life. I started the group with three specific areas of my life. That seemed unmanageable to me that I wanted to change. They said I was in distortion if I wanted to focus on those. They require hours of indoctrinating in their methods each day and you have to track it as well.

• 1:19:19Speaker 04

  If you spend less time because for instance, you're sick or on vacation or it's Christmas, they shame you for it and aggressively say that you've dropped responsibility. The fifth reason being that they talk bad about you behind your back. When they find something wrong with you, instead of teaching you about that thing, getting curious about it, if they're even right about the assumption they are making, they aggressively tell others about it. They talked negatively and aggressively about me in the men's group. And Jody individually talked badly about me to someone else during his $175 an hour, one-on-one with her. They called someone I love to talk bad about me. And he, having been deeply embedded in connections, listened and didn't stop them from this inappropriate behavior. It's a completely different and intense community with a completely different language.

• 1:20:04Speaker 04

  They define so many words differently, which I think is generally helpful and common with therapists, but this is extreme. And the last reason being that connections promotes cutting people out of your life. Praise isn't given in the group for learning a new concept. It's given when you set unhealthy distancing boundaries with your loved ones. She advocates for leaving spouses at the drop of a hat instead of working together when there is a problem. The principle of being responsible for your own stuff is true, but that's not what this is. This is fault finding and then using that as evidence to push people away. As far as I know, Jody herself is estranged from everyone in her family and has very few friends. It teaches in Richest Man in Babylon that you couldn't learn how to be rich from those who aren't rich.

• 1:20:49Speaker 04

  Likewise, it doesn't make sense to learn how to connect with people from someone who isn't able to connect herself. Now, all of this, not only, of course, obviously screams cult leader tactics, but the cult that it reminded me of almost immediately. And tell me if you were drawing this conclusion as I was reading those examples to you. But it totally felt parallel to me with NXeum. But Keith Rennery, who was like, in my opinion, just the ultimate creep of all creeps. He was the cult leader of NXeum, which essentially has And dubbed in pop culture as the sex cult. It had the famous actress from Smallville, Alison Mack and a bunch of others. But one of the tactics and one of the most interesting things about this cult was that

• 1:21:32Speaker 04

  the principles it was providing and the teachings that it was providing were actually rooted in truth and rooted in good and things that helped these people. So while they were in this cult for so long, they started seeing certain aspects of their life get better, which further embedded them into the teachings, thinking that this person truly was, you know, a higher being or a higher level or had all of this like insane immense knowledge and they just would hang on his every word, hook, line, sinker, until it got so crazy that people were branding themselves, having sex with him, having sex with each other, weird, weird stuff. But I bring up the parallel with NXIVM because not only were the principles apparently rooted

• 1:22:16Speaker 04

  in good and truly did help people, but Keith Renary's co-conspirator and person right alongside him, which I'm drawing a blank on her name at the moment, she and her daughter were also involved heavily in the leadership of NXIVM. And they, in my opinion, based on the documentaries and the research that I've done, I think they were in fact brainwashed by Keith himself. I don't think they were trying to run this cult for power, for money like he was, although equally like hand in hand with him, they were responsible for a lot of this. I think that they saw the good that was coming in their own lives. They felt that they were doing good, providing good to these people because they were having these positive experiences to where then they became more credible in the organization.

• 1:22:59Speaker 04

  Their words became more credible in the cult, not realizing that they were just a pawn in Keith's master plan and they became an authoritative figure in it and a leadership figure in it, not even realizing until he went on trial and all of this stuff was made public and. People's testimony was brought. That's the only point in time in which they realized, "Holy shit. Something's wrong here. I can't believe I was responsible and participated in this." And it feels very much in line with everything we just heard and what we know about Connections and Jodi Hildebrandt as well. So was Ruby the sidekick to Jody as Keith Rennery and his sidekick, which again, her name, I'm sorry, I apologize. I'm drawing

• 1:23:43Speaker 04

  a blank on it. Nancy Salzman. That is the name I was looking for. So is Ruby Frankie, the Nancy Salzman to Jodi Hildebrandt's Keith Rennery? Or is she truly complicit? And is it the Keith Rennery 1.0, Keith Rennery 2.0, and they're both on the same level and have the same ideologies? I don't know. It feels very, very odd to me. And it also gets worse. Jody's niece Jessie also said, and I quote, "I think also because of the way the church is structured, kept her from doing more damage. But she believed that her work was combating Satan every day in preparation for the second coming. She believed because my grandfather had some sort of patriarch blessing, saying that he was going to work directly for Jesus on this earth. So he always believed that the second coming was going

• 1:24:28Speaker 04

  to happen in his lifetime. But she used that language also to fuel her belief that the second coming is close. She felt like she was going to be one of the people who welcomes God back or ushers in the second coming of Jesus." Again, these are not theoretical. These are not hypothetical. She believed these in a very literal sense. Now, we know that Ruby and Jody both pleaded guilty. And in February of 2024, they were both sentenced to four consecutive terms of one to 15 years in prison. Now, as scary as that might seem, and as big as that may sound, both Ruby and Jody are scheduled to have their first parole hearing in December of 2026, though the exact dates and times

• 1:25:11Speaker 04

  are still to come. But let me just, you know, level set what that means here. They were sentenced to four consecutive terms of one to 15 years in prison. It's all going to come down to, you know, what the people decide when they go up for parole and they're being evaluated. Meaning, they could serve as much as 60 years in prison, but they could serve as few as four years in prison. It's all at the board's discretion when they go up for parole. Which that-

• 1:25:45Speaker 04

  Is probably one of the more disheartening details of this case to me because given the severity of this, given the severity of what they put these children through and what a risk they still are to the public, in my opinion, and I'll talk more on that in a second, the fact that they could be out in four years is mind boggling to me. And the reason I say potentially is still a risk is to this day, Jody still is running her cult from behind bars. Connections is still a thing. It's still going. People are in it. She is still saying how she has been, you know, she's the outcast. She's been isolated. I don't know the exact words. Some religious mumbo jumbo. And I don't mean that to like

• 1:26:30Speaker 04

  knock religion, but you know how cult leaders are. They always use the religious words to their advantage. So she's saying how she's, you know, the scapegoat and all of this. So in my opinion, the moment she's released, she's going right back to teachings. I also truly believe in my heart, and I may have said this before, maybe I didn't, maybe I've said it privately, but I'll say it publicly here. I truly believe in my heart that had the neighbor not called 911 that day, or had Jody found him on the street before he reached a neighbor's house because she was out in the truck looking for him. She was, she knew he had escaped and she was looking for him and she was frantic and panicked

• 1:27:10Speaker 04

  and a cop even saw her. I believe in my heart that those children would have ended up like Tylee and JJ from the Lori Vallow and Chad Daywell case. I truly believe it with my whole heart because it just continuously was getting more extreme, more extreme, more extreme, the heat, the punishments, everything. And then the fear of being caught knowing that one of them had escaped, that he so bravely escaped, there would have, of course, been consequence for that, right? And it was truly only a matter of time before the malnourishment took over and started shutting down their organs. Whether there would have been retaliation in a physical form or not, it was only a matter of time before the malnourishment

• 1:27:53Speaker 04

  took flight and created a disaster and a loss. So I think when you look at the totality of it, and you have Jody, this master manipulator, this greedy, scummy, disgusting, filthy scum of the earth, human being, back on the street, potentially, where she's still, she has no remorse, she has no accountability, she still believes, she's like, this exalted person, and still is teaching, and you know how extreme it almost, and it got extreme, don't get me wrong, but you know how dire the situation almost became, that is a huge risk factor, and I think that she should definitely

• 1:28:33Speaker 04

  be locked up for the full 60 years. That's my opinion. Ruby, I believe there may be more leeway with Ruby than Jodi, not from me personally, but from the board, when they go and review all of this. And my only reason for that is because Ruby has shown her version of remorse, standing up in court, taking accountability, which, I'll be honest, didn't really ring all that authentic to me. I felt it was more performative, but who knows. But I think that there is an argument to be had, and Netflix also touched on this a bit, that she was truly brainwashed by Jodi. Now, do I think

• 1:29:15Speaker 04

  that that diminishes her role? No. Do I think that that excuses her actions? Never in a million years. But I could see where a review board sees that she was a victim in all of this, to some extent, and so she still needs to serve her time and be punished, but maybe it's not as extreme as the puppeteer. Maybe the puppet isn't getting as harsh of a punishment as the puppeteer. Now, do I agree with that? Not necessarily. If it were up to me, I'd say, lock them both up, 60 years, even longer, throw away the key, we're done with them. But, obviously, it's not up to me. And I am curious to know what you guys think. What do you believe the right punishment is here?

• 1:29:56Speaker 04

  Should they have the opportunity at rehabilitation after just four years, or are they still a risk? And it would be really interesting if Ruby is released, to see where she goes in life from here, because Kevin has already remarried. He got remarried back in November of this year, which, I also gotta say, is like, pretty Quick, given the circumstances, not that I wanted to see him stand by Ruby's side, absolutely not, but thought that was interesting. A lot of her children, obviously, still won't talk to her. Even if she's released, I would imagine there will be some sort of restriction in place with contact with the minor children until they're adults. So what does that life look like? And because she would be so isolated and so detached from her former husband, her kids,

• 1:30:40Speaker 04

  her family, would that make her more susceptible to getting roped back into Jody's teachings or to anybody's teachings? It takes a very unique person to fall into a cult. And I don't want to say unique as in a bad way. It's just, it's somebody who's looking for something. It's somebody who doesn't feel fulfilled, somebody who's looking for guidance, for friendship, connection, companionship. And so that would be all the markings of Ruby in that situation. So, I mean, I don't know. I don't know what would happen. This is a case that will forever haunt my mind, no matter what. It doesn't matter how much time has passed. It doesn't matter how many times I've seen the body cam or the images.

• 1:31:22Speaker 04

  It is embedded in my brain and it will haunt me forever. And every single time I cover it, I just leave the recording, sitting back and thinking to myself, you know, how can people truly be this evil? Especially leaning on their religion as being the motivating factor? And how can parents be so not only evil, but cavalier and just sit by and watch this happen to their children, even if they're not actively participating? Which I do believe Ruby did, I personally do. I think she participated with the restraints. But even if not, I mean, how do you just allow this to happen to your children, especially in the name of religion?

• 1:32:08Speaker 04

  But we've seen it time and time again, and especially more recently, like I keep saying, with Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow. It was like the blueprint. I believe that Jody is the Chad and Ruby is the Lori through and through. It is the same kind of dynamic, both LDS, both Often their own sect of extremist, both thinking that they're the prophet, which I don't know what the, what religion says. I don't know if there can be more than one prophet, but like, you know, Chad, you thought the end of days were coming in July of what 2020 it was? And we're way past that, my man. So obviously you're a fake god. You're, you know, you're bullshit.

• 1:32:46Speaker 04

  Jody, I don't even know what you think. You just are preying on people. I personally think for financial gain and also for your own self hatred. I don't know. And why do cults always lean, like lean on religion? Do you notice that? Not all of them, like Twin Flames is a little bit different. I believe they're a cult. They lean again more, they're that they prey on people who want connection and want love. It's always finding the people who feel like there's something missing in their life. And then they exploit it and they tear it apart and they just like take everything from you. But so many cults lean on religion. Is that because people who follow religion are so faithful and like have such blind faith and such hope?

• 1:33:32Speaker 04

  I don't know. I would love to talk to a psychologist about cults. Maybe that's what we need to do. Maybe we need to do a follow-up episode with like, a psychologist who really knows the inner workings of cults. We, we've talked with Mike King many times. He's a dear friend of mine. He also has an amazing channel called Profiling Evil. And he is a former FBI profiler. He has infiltrated cults. He has broken cults apart. He has done so much work and we've talked at length about different cults. But he would be a good person to talk to too, because it's like, how do you even know you're in a cult until it's too late? I guess is a question too. I don't know. I could talk about cults all day long. So my voice is like getting worse by the minute.

• 1:34:15Speaker 04

  So I will leave it there for today's episode. But thank you so much for listening. I hope you have an amazing new year. Happy 2026. We are in good spirits. Let's hope for a.

• 1:34:28Speaker 04

  Banger year, some way better than 2025. Um, and thank you guys for listening. Before you go, don't forget, hit that subscribe button, hit the follow button on your podcast app. And as a reminder, I am dropping a brand new episode for you tomorrow on my 10 to life podcast. It's not on this podcast feed, so make sure you're following 10 to life, one, zero, two, life on Apple, Spotify, wherever you're listening, and a brand new episode is coming out tomorrow. And for everybody on YouTube, make sure that you're subscribed so that you don't miss that episode as well. Between serialously and tend to life, we're putting out new episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and every other Friday. So make sure you're following both, make sure you're subscribed to both. It's free, totally free, but that way you don't miss any of those.

• 1:35:12Speaker 04

  All right, guys, until the next one. Be nice, don't kill people, don't join a cult, and stay the hell away from Jody Hildebrandt. All right, bye.

• 1:35:36Speaker 02

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