242: Insane Facebook Woman Cuts Baby from Pregnant Mother’s Womb?! |The Murder of Jamie Stice

In 2011, 21-year-old mom-to-be Jamie Stice, was preparing to welcome her baby boy into the world. She had no idea she would cross paths with someone so desperate to cover their own lies and keep up appearances, that they were willing to go to unthinkable lengths to cover their tracks. This is a case that law enforcement officials have called the worst crime they’ve ever seen… TRIGGER WARNING: This case discusses gruesome details of a crime. Listener discretion is advised. Join our True Crime Club for access to BTS, Bonus Content, Our Private Group Chat, Giveaways and More! Shop Our True Crime Merch Follow the podcast on: IG, Facebook and TikTok For Business Inquiries: [email protected] About Annie Today’s Sponsors: iRestore: Head to https://irestorelaser.com and get $625 off when you use code AE. PDS Debt: Go to https://pdsdebt.com/save to get your FREE debt assessment today! June’s Journey: Visit https://www.junesjourney.com/ to download and start playing today! FUM: Head to https://tryfum.com and use code SERIAL to get a FREE gift with your journey pack. Rocket Money: https://rocketmoney.com/ae and cancel your unwanted subscriptions today! Episode Sources: Daily Mail Daily News ABC News Wave WDRB KOOL EWU Crime Storytime

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:25Annie Elise?

  Hey, true crime besties. Welcome back to an all-new episode of Seriallessly.

• 1:49Annie Elise?

  Hey, everybody. Welcome back to an all-new episode of Seriallessly with me, Annie Elise. We have got a mega, mega deep dive today, and I feel like it's a case where a lot of us are going to be able to relate in one way or another, because it has to do with when you meet people online, using social media, whether you're meeting people online through... Dating sites, Facebook Marketplace, you know, Craigslist, hopefully not, but you know what I mean, wherever. I feel like it's something that is now just so common these days. It's not weird or looked at oddly if you meet a stranger off the internet for whatever the reason may be. I mean, we've all done it, right? I know I have. It's quick, it's easy. Maybe you're a little nervous meeting the first time, but hopefully, knock

• 2:31Annie Elise?

  on wood, knock on my table, it works out more times than not. And really, because it has become such a normal part of society and our world and our life, how often are we really thinking about the risks? The ones about people not always having good intentions and possibly being a predator or somebody scary. And today's case primarily circles around Facebook, because I want you to just imagine this. Imagine that you're scrolling through Facebook one afternoon, maybe you're chatting with a new friend you met online, maybe you're on Facebook Marketplace, who knows what it is, but this person seems nice, they seem helpful. But that new friend, unbeknownst to you, isn't at all who they seemed. What if behind all of their friendly words, their nice, kind picture, they were planning something

• 3:15Annie Elise?

  just absolutely horrific? Something that would leave you and your family shattered and your name in the headlines, but for all the wrong reasons? Because in 2011, that's exactly what happened to a 21-year-old mom-to-be who was excited to welcome her baby into the world. But instead, she crossed paths with somebody so desperate to cover their own lies and keep up appearances, that they were willing to do the unthinkable and go to the unthinkable lengths to cover their tracks. It's a case that some law enforcement officials have even called the worst crime that they have ever seen. So, trigger warning, this case is an especially gruesome one, especially as a mom, because it gets really

• 3:56Annie Elise?

  difficult to tell and there are a lot of details that are hard to stomach. So, in April of 2011, 21-year-old Jamie Stice was living in Bowling Green, Kentucky. She was in the middle of preparing for the arrival of her first baby, a little boy who had a due date in May. Jamie was a petite girl with shoulder-length brown hair, these gorgeous blue eyes, and according to everyone who knew her, Jamie was the kind of person who just burned bright. Her family and friends say that she was this bubbly, kind-hearted person who was just full of love for everyone around her. And even though she was young, Jamie was so excited about becoming a mom. Jamie had even picked out a name for the baby, a little boy that she planned to call Isaiah.

• 4:38Annie Elise?

  She was counting down the days until she could hold him in her arms and even if you didn't know her personally, you could just see her excitement. It literally radiated off of her. She loved posting photos of her baby bump on social media, especially Facebook, and really just so proud and excited to be a mom. Her brother Cory said Jamie was always smiling and always happy, that her joy was just infectious. Her happy-go-lucky attitude also really just made her the kind of person who welcomed people into her life easily. And in this case, maybe it was a little too easy, but we're gonna get into all of that. So when you're about to have a baby, everything is new and overwhelming, right? I mean, especially when you're a first-time mom. There is so much to prepare for.

• 5:20Annie Elise?

  I mean, you've got to get all the baby stuff, the clothes, the advice from every single mom you've ever met, whether you want it or not, let's be honest. And you figure out all of the things that you didn't even know that you needed until somebody just kind of hands you this list or forces this list on you of like, this is what you need to buy, this is what you need to use, this is the best formula, this, like, it's just, it's a lot and it can be very overwhelming. Now Jamie, she wasn't exactly rich, so like a lot of young moms to be, she was really grateful for any help that she could get. And someone that Jamie thought was being just incredibly helpful and kind to her was a woman named Kathy Coy. Kathy also happened to be pregnant. Now Kathy was someone that Jamie had met online through Facebook, and she seemed like she could be somebody who could be a really good friend for her, someone who could relate to what Jamie was going through

• 6:05Annie Elise?

  and offer her a little support even. Kathy said that she worked for a company that helped new moms prepare for their upcoming birth and baby, and she really wanted to help Jamie with giving her some free baby items. She even said that she was going to take her shopping to pick some of the things out. Now Jamie was a single parent after all, and young, just 21 years old, so this offer is kind of amazing. Plus, I mean, who doesn't love free stuff, right? Didn't exactly feel like she was in any position to turn Kathy down, so she took her up on this offer. And I just want to pause for a moment because while it's easy in hindsight to look at the risks and the red flags, remember this was also 2011, which was, I don't want to say like the peak of Facebook, but it was when social media first started out.

• 6:49Annie Elise?

  So it was well before any of us heard of a lot of nefarious things happening on social media, or predators, or catfishing, and all of these things. It was pretty new. It was pretty much like, not in its infancy, but you know what I mean? So here Jamie was thinking, wow, I just met a new friend on Facebook. This is so nice. This was the day and age where people were meeting people so much on Facebook and making new friends. She wants to help me get some of the stuff for my baby because she knows I'm a young, single mom. Like, this is great. It could seem perfectly normal, and it did seem perfectly normal. But who was this Kathy person really? And if she was somebody that you ever met in passing, you might not even think twice about her. Kathy was in her early 30s and from Morgantown, Kentucky,

• 7:32Annie Elise?

  which is a small town about 25 miles north of Bowling Green. And she's someone who sort of just blended into the background of small-town life. I don't mean that to be offensive, but she just wasn't flashy or showy at all. But according to the people who knew her, she did love attention. Kathy was also a mom. She had two kids of her own, a teenage boy and a girl. Now Kathy, as I mentioned, was several years older than Jamie. But like Jamie, she also had shoulder-length brown hair, just a little shorter than Jamie's. And when you see pictures of her, there was also kind of like this look about Kathy that maybe she had lived a hard life and maybe had this deep kind of sadness to her. Again, I'm not trying to like shame her or throw shade or anything, but she just kind of looked like maybe she had lived a little bit of a rough life.

• 8:16Annie Elise?

  And it's also worth noting that Kathy was partially deaf. But despite that, she came across as friendly and approachable, and it also seemed like she had this knack for putting people at ease. Kind of just coming off as this person who you might be able to open up to. She just had that air about her, and maybe that's why Jamie felt comfortable around her. Kathy seemed like somebody who could relate to what she was going through. But if you dug a little bit deeper, you would find that- Kathy's life was not as stable as it seemed. She had been through two divorces and while she was raising her kids, there were also signs that things weren't exactly picture perfect at home. Money was tight, Kathy often struggled to make ends meet. And in fact, in her town, almost 25% of families are currently living below the poverty line.

• 8:59Annie Elise?

  Now see Kathy had this need to feel important and to stand out. She wanted to be seen as somebody special, somebody who had it, you know, all together. So even if that wasn't really the reality, that was the image that she tried to portray. And it's the kind of thing that you sometimes see in people who crave validation, right? Sometimes they'll go to extreme lengths to make their lives look more exciting or maybe even more meaningful than they are. And remember Kathy was also pregnant, so with another baby on the way, her third, she talked about it like any expecting mom would. She was saying she was so excited to become a mom again, that she was so excited for this next go around to have a newborn now at home since her other kids were older. And for Jamie, who also could not wait to have her baby, this kind of felt like a really good bond for her.

• 9:44Annie Elise?

  Here was someone who totally got it, who could relate to like the craziness and the emotions that come with being pregnant and having a baby, but also somebody who has gone through it and is older and wiser and has experience that they can really share with you firsthand, right? I mean, after all, what's more relatable than two moms to be swapping stories about food cravings they're having, pains they're feeling, feeling a foot in your rib cage, all those different things. And Kathy and Jamie also had something else in common. They were both about to become single moms. Now, according to people who knew Kathy, it sort of seemed like Kathy wanted to get back with her ex, a guy named Shannon Coy. And at the time of this case, Shannon's Facebook page still listed that he and Kathy were married, but people who knew them said they were definitely not together.

• 10:29Annie Elise?

  And as we all know, you can never really trust a Facebook relationship status. So she was confiding in Jamie, saying, "Look, I'm gonna be a single mom too." Her friends also saw that she was going to be single, that her and Shannon weren't together. So she was gonna be embarking on this new journey on her own, just like Jamie. Now although she was going to be doing this as a single parent and had a- Allegedly left Shannon, the baby that Kathy was pregnant with was Shannon's child. So at some point, the two of them were still in contact with one another. And according to Kathy, apparently she still had every intention of raising the baby with Shannon. Even when she would sometimes talk about him with her friends, she would refer to him as her husband, even though she was saying that they weren't together and that they, she was going to be a single parent.

• 11:13Annie Elise?

  And it seems maybe like she might have been in a little bit of denial over the fact that they weren't together anymore. I'm not sure. We know that breakups are hard and sometimes it can take time to sink in. I get that, but it just seems like this was kind of a complicated situation. So I don't know if Kathy sort of saw this pregnancy as maybe a Band-Aid for their relationship? That maybe it would be something that could solve all of their problems, bring them back together? I don't know. But now that we know a little bit more about who Kathy and Jamie were as people, I want to get into their friendship a little bit more. And in April of 2011, as promised, Kathy took Jamie to go shopping for all of that new baby stuff. So on April 13th, Kathy picked Jamie up from her home in Bowling Green, Kentucky. It was an ordinary spring day, nothing really stood out, you know, not anything really at

• 11:56Annie Elise?

  all, except the fact that Jamie kind of felt like she was hitting the jackpot. She was about to get a bunch of free stuff for her little boy. It felt like a major win for her. So Jamie was gone all day. And then eventually nighttime rolled around. But that's when Jamie didn't return home. Right away, when Jamie didn't come home that evening, her family immediately knew that something wasn't right. I mean, this just was not like her. Even though Jamie was an adult and she didn't have to keep her family up to date with everything she did or everywhere she went, she was still super close with them, always keeping them in the loop about her plans. And as a first time mom, she was even more careful. So at first, obviously, her family wanted to think that maybe she could have just been out with friends, maybe she stayed the night somewhere else, there has to be an explanation.

• 12:38Annie Elise?

  But then, when even more time passed without hearing from her, and when that night turned into the next morning, panic officially set in. Jamie's family decided that they weren't going to waste another second wondering where she was or if she was all right, they were going to take action now. So they called the police and they reported her missing. And as you can imagine, this began a frantic search for her. Her family started looking everywhere, reaching out to friends to see if they had heard from her, if they had seen her, if they knew where she might have been. But then, just 24 hours after she was reported missing, a body was found in southern Kentucky.

• 13:13Speaker 04

  Different newspapers and hear about it in Hollywood, but no, it's happened here in Bowling Green area.

• 13:18Speaker 05

  It's spooky. It makes you not want to trust anybody.

• 13:26Annie Elise?

  All right, we're going to take a quick break because we need to talk about something that is the least fun, but the most important thing that you will probably ever do, and that is protecting the people you love. Life insurance is really about peace of mind, knowing people are set up for whatever situation, no matter what. And PolicyGenius makes finding life insurance so much easier. They're not an insurance company. They are a free online marketplace where you can compare quotes from some of America's top insurers side by side. And if you don't know where to start, their team of licensed experts can help answer your questions, handle the paperwork, and help you find an affordable policy that actually fits your needs and budget. Make a smart move today to help protect their tomorrow.

• 14:08Annie Elise?

  With PolicyGenius, you can see if you can find a 20-year life insurance policy, starting at just $276 a year for $1 million in coverage. Head to policygenius.com to compare quotes right now. That's policygenius.com. Now, what I'm about to describe next is insanely gruesome and devastating, and for some of our listeners, it's probably going to be very difficult to hear, if not for all of our listeners. And I know that when I first read the details about this case, I had to pause a few times to digest it, because it's just that intense, to be quite honest, so please, listen with caution. So that body was found on April 14th. That day, the body that was found was confirmed to be Jamie.

• 14:52Annie Elise?

  She was found in a remote wooded area off of a dirt road in southern Kentucky. It was a super quiet, very isolated spot, and Jamie was face down in the dirt. So at first glance, you couldn't see exactly what she had gone through, what she had been put through. But then, the investigators took a closer look at Jamie, and practically everyone who was on the scene that day said that what they saw was one of the most horrific, seriously disturbing things that they had ever seen in their entire career in law enforcement. Her hands had defensive marks on them, which was, of course, a sign that she had fought back against whatever sick person did this to her. Also noticed that Jamie's wrists had been slit. But this obviously was not a suicide.

• 15:33Annie Elise?

  She did not take her own life and it was also far from the worst of the wounds that were found on her body. See, Jamie's entire lower stomach had been ripped open, practically carved like something straight out of a horror movie. A preliminary autopsy report eventually stated that she had suffered from, quote, "multiple homicidal sharp force injuries." Jamie was also missing organs. But more importantly, she was missing her baby. Police looked all around to see if this baby was anywhere near her. Maybe he had been left behind or, I mean, I don't know, God knows what. But something had to explain why that baby boy that she was carrying inside of her was nowhere to be found.

• 16:16Annie Elise?

  That little boy, the one she planned to name Isaiah, was just gone. And just the state of Jamie's body and the fact that her son wasn't there, this told the investigators practically everything that they needed to know, or at least where they needed to look, where they needed to start with their investigation. It looked like Jamie had been murdered because somebody wanted her unborn child. And for her family, I mean, this discovery, as you can imagine, was completely devastating. Obviously, they had been holding out hope that she might come home safe, that she might be okay, there might have been an explanation, but the reality that they were now dealing with, it's the stuff that nightmares are truly made out of. Seriously, this isn't something that anyone would ever imagine could happen to somebody that they know.

• 17:00Annie Elise?

  Jamie's life had been taken away in the most violent way imaginable, all because it seemed like somebody wanted a baby and was willing to kill to get their hands on one. And then you add in the layer of what kind of human could do this to another human? It is barbaric, it is just vicious. It's so difficult to stomach or even wrap your mind around. And I think to really understand this case and where we're going here, I want to talk about what type of person would do this and some theories as to why that might be. Now, first off, these types of murders where people go after pregnant women for their babies are not unheard of. Sure, they're rare, but we have covered them before. We covered them with Taylor Parker. We covered them with Heidi Broussard.

• 17:43Annie Elise?

  There was another one with a woman named Ashley. We have covered quite a few of them. They're not as rare as you would think, which is unnerving in and of itself. We also talked about a case last year of Clarissa Figueroa, who's a woman in Chicago who actually teamed up with her own daughter to kill a teenager and steal her baby. It's even been studied by psychologists and law enforcement, and it has a name. It's called womb raiding. R A I D I N G, not R A T I N G, but raiding, raiding with a D. Which let me just talk about how ridiculous that term is, right? It's like tomb raider, but womb raider. And I'm not saying that to make a joke or make light of it. It's like, that just seems like such an insane name, but that is what it is. They are raiding a woman's womb.

• 18:27Annie Elise?

  Now, back in the day, it was more likely that this type of thing would take place in a hospital, maybe where like some deranged nurse or hospital attendant or something like that would steal a baby straight from a nursery without having to kill for it. But now, obviously, security in hospitals, or most hospitals, I should say, is a lot better. And babies are pretty much on lockdown and for good reason. So that kind of baby snatching is pretty rare these days. But because of that, womb raiding is kind of taking on a bigger role. We're seeing it more often and it's taken a much darker, darker turn. Now, police and the people who study this type of case say that a lot of times this type of thing is rooted in a desperate need for control or validation. And for someone to be able to do this to another person,

• 19:09Annie Elise?

  there obviously has to be a significant mental health component that's going on. These types of people, these womb raiders, they usually suffer from delusional thinking and they might even have other things going on like a personality disorder or something. But obviously, no excuse for mental health or any type of, you know... Issue that you're facing in your personal life could justify this type of violence and destruction. It might, yes, explain some behavior, but it doesn't justify something so calculated, manipulative, and cold-blooded. So let's get into a couple of theories as to who could have killed Jamie, although I'm pretty sure you have a good idea of who and why. I mean, I'm sure we all think suspect number one is Kathy. I mean, she fits the bill.

• 19:50Annie Elise?

  Her story sounds a lot like a womb raider situation and ones we've talked about previously. You befriend a pregnant woman, you offer her help, you offer to give her free baby stuff, you lure them in, and then you kill them and take their baby. But then again, Kathy was pregnant herself, so why the heck would she want to murder Jamie and have another baby when she was about to give birth herself so soon? I mean, there's the question of was she claiming she was going to be having twins and maybe needed a second baby for so-called proof? We definitely have seen more bizarre cases. But besides Kathy, there could be other suspects. Like what if Jamie got caught up with the wrong kind of people, people who prey on vulnerable individuals? I mean, think about it. Jamie met Kathy through social media. What if there was somebody else lurking in the background that she met?

• 20:35Annie Elise?

  Someone who saw one of Jamie's posts about being pregnant and maybe saw an opportunity? We also know that there are predators out there who watch for people like this, really just looking for somebody that they can easily go after and harm. So could the person who did this to Jamie have been somebody who had absolutely nothing to do with Kathy at all? But maybe was just watching Jamie from afar and waiting for the right moment? There's also one more totally different angle that I think is worth mentioning that I've seen out there. What if Jamie's disappearance wasn't about her pregnancy at all? Yes, she happened to be pregnant, but what if it had something to do with someone or something from her past? Maybe an ex-boyfriend, or somebody who wasn't thrilled about her starting this new chapter in her life and going through with the pregnancy?

• 21:18Annie Elise?

  We know it's not uncommon for jealousy or other unresolved issues to then spiral into something much, much darker. It's possible that somebody either saw her pregnancy as a fresh start that they weren't going to be a part of, or maybe a fresh start that they didn't want Jamie to have. Especially if there was anyone in her life who might have had a motive to hurt her or didn't- Want to see her happy? Well, let's get into the evidence that the authorities used as they started piecing together the case. Let's start with what the cops found when they went to Jamie's house. Not that they were really expecting to find anything, but they still needed to check it out. And as it turns out, they did find something. Actually, it was someone. Someone was hiding in an upstairs bedroom, which looks pretty damn suspicious if you're

• 22:01Annie Elise?

  a police officer looking for information on a recently missing and murdered pregnant woman. But this was bizarre. Now, get this. The person hiding upstairs in that bedroom was the boyfriend of Jamie's mom, Jeannie. After questioning him, he said that he was in, quote, "drug court." That's why he was hiding. And basically, it sounds like he might have had some previous drug charges or was maybe in the process of dealing with drug charges. And he didn't want to mess things up by getting in trouble for violating anything. I'm not sure. Maybe that's why he was hiding. But at the time, it all checked out. So with everything now checking out at Jamie's house and the cops feeling like her mom's boyfriend didn't have anything to do with this crime, it was time to look at some other people. Thankfully, though, Jamie's family didn't have to wait too long to find the person who

• 22:45Annie Elise?

  actually did this. They were about to get an answer as to who the hell could have done this vile, horrible thing to their daughter and grandson. Because the same day that Jamie's body was found, someone came to a nearby hospital with a newborn baby boy. But that's not all they had. They also brought with them a uterus, placenta, ovaries, and an umbilical cord that was still attached. So that same day that Jamie's body was discovered face down in the dirt, somebody showed up at a local hospital with a brand-new newborn baby boy. And it's not exactly a surprise to walk into a hospital with a baby. I know that. But the circumstances around this person that just kind of like strolled in were pretty bizarre.

• 23:28Annie Elise?

  Not to mention absolutely grotesque. Remember, they had organs with them as well, even an umbilical cord that was still attached. So, who was it? Well, it was a woman who said that she lived in the area and who claimed that she had just given birth. When this woman got to the hospital, the doctors and the nurses obviously came to help her right away because from the initial look of things, this woman had just given birth somewhere else. So obviously, the baby needed some attention right away, and the mother probably did too. But after the doctors and the nurses spoke with her and examined her a little bit more, something about the whole thing and her story, it just felt off. For starters, like I mentioned, the baby still had the umbilical cord attached, which

• 24:11Annie Elise?

  is not exactly what you would expect if the birth had gone smoothly at home or even in some other medical facility. The woman also didn't seem to have any telltale signs of somebody who had just recently given birth. She didn't seem physically exhausted, she wasn't having any signs of pain, she could sit, which, if you've given birth, it's not c-section like me, you know it's difficult to sit, and there was no tearing anywhere down there, if you get where I'm saying, what I'm saying, no blood. It just seemed very clean, okay? I'll just, not to get too graphic, I'll just leave it at that. It seemed very clean, because I know some men listen to this too, so I don't want to scar you for life. But if you have a family member or a friend who is a nurse or a doctor, you know there is absolutely no fooling them. They are like a human lie detector machine.

• 24:55Annie Elise?

  I mean, obviously, they see crazy stuff every single day, so they're very trained to spot these things and see things so they can get them exactly what they need, they can do triage, they can work with all of those things. But this person didn't really have any red flags that were going up in terms of her wounds or her need for care, so that immediately raised their suspicions. So what exactly did this woman say was going on? How was she so intact and, you know, preserved, if that's the right word to describe it? Well, her story was that she had given birth at home and then rushed to the hospital to make sure that the baby was okay. But when they questioned her about when, where, and how, her timeline was a little shaky, and she couldn't provide any real details that added up.

• 25:38Annie Elise?

  According to the woman, before coming to the hospital, she first drove over to her friend's house, a woman named Lisa. When she got there, she pulled up and she asked- Lisa to take a photo of the baby and send it to her husband while she was still quite literally behind the wheel driving saying, "Hey, shoot a picture of my new baby, send it to my husband. Like, I'm so excited. We're gonna have our babies here. Like, tell him we're going to the hospital," something like that. And as you can imagine, her friend Lisa was obviously a little stunned by all of this. She could see that her friend was literally sitting on placenta. She also noticed she wasn't wearing any pants. It looked as though she had just given birth while she was driving and then pulled up in her friend's driveway being like, "Hey, I'm here. Like, just gave birth." I mean, it's bizarre. So Lisa immediately

• 26:21Annie Elise?

  thought that something was seriously wrong and she assumed that her friend needed medical help right away. So after cleaning up her friend and the baby, Lisa called for an ambulance. The ambulance arrived at Lisa's and rushed this woman and the baby to the hospital. I mean, organs and all. Now, I'll be honest with you guys, if this story sounds random to you and doesn't make any sense, think about how it must have sounded to the hospital staff, right? And if this woman did actually give birth at home in a rush, she might, and that's a big might, have the placenta with her. And the umbilical cord could still be attached too, yes, sure, but it just wasn't really seeming like that was the situation. Especially when you layer in the other stuff. I mean, I'm sure that it was the ovaries and

• 27:03Annie Elise?

  the uterus that really sealed the deal for all of the hospital staff who saw this woman and kind of like really made their red flags go off. And at first, I sort of wondered if there was any possible way that ovaries or a uterus could become dislodged or maybe something like that could happen when it's a traumatic birth experience. So because of that, I had to Google it. I had to research it. And here's a quick little anatomy lesson for you, just to like level set what was going on here. Technically, it's possible for a uterus to sort of come out. Yes, let's just say that. But ovaries, no. It's not at all probable. Which I might have not known that if I was just a random person on the street or Lisa, the friend, but you can bet your asses, the doctors knew this. Now, after

• 27:46Annie Elise?

  all of that, the baby was fine, but it wasn't long before hospital workers called the police. I mean, they had way too many unanswered questions about this alleged home birth and they were concerned- Both for the baby's health and the truth of this lady's story. Plus, even if she had just given birth, better safe than sorry, right? Like, if there's any suspicion about a woman waltzing into a hospital with a baby, I think we can all agree that getting the police involved just to be safe is not the worst idea. And when the police arrived, it did not take them long to get to the bottom of this story or the identity of this woman.

• 28:25Annie Elise?

  It's officially holiday season, which also means it's hosting season, right? So it's time where you look around, you notice things if you're like me, where like, "Oh, that little area could use a little bit of a refresh," or, "Ooh, I think I need a little bit more decorating over in this corner." And for all things hosting, Wayfair delivers high-quality, customer-trusted products for your home so that you can host and celebrate without having any of the stress. Wayfair helps you create a home that stands up to real life with thousands of products across every style and budget, plus trusted reviews that make shopping just way easier. Think colorful serving bowls, flameless votive candles, a holiday embroidered cotton napkin set,

• 29:06Annie Elise?

  just the little touches that make everything feel a bit more elevated and cozy. For me, it's my turn to host this year, so I already knew, looking around, I'm like, "Okay, my dishes are not gonna cut it, my napkins aren't gonna cut it." So I was able to get actual holiday dishes at a great value, cute embroidered napkins, I got an amazing new, like, wood cutting board that you can leave out on the counter that's decorative, too. So many amazing things, and the reviews really sold it for me. So when you're refreshing your home this holiday season, Wayfair delivers exactly what you need. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com.

• 29:49Annie Elise?

  So when the authorities started questioning this woman, at first, she maintained her story. The whole, you know, "It's my baby, I gave birth at home" story that she had told the hospital staff. But obviously, there was no way that that was true. There was no possible way that she could be presenting her own ovaries to the doctors. And it seemed like she probably started- to realize pretty quickly that she wasn't fooling anyone. Because pretty soon, this woman started changing her story. After backtracking a little bit, she pretty much decided to say, you know what? I didn't actually give birth to this baby. But I did buy it for $550. And I bought it from a woman named Ashley. Which, I don't know if she thought that that story was going to be more believable than her original story. Also, like, how ridiculous is that, that you're saying like,

• 30:35Annie Elise?

  "Oh, I bought this baby from somebody and with it came ovaries, a uterus, all of these things, all these organs." But it's all on the up and up, like, you're buying a baby on the black market? It just makes no sense. But apparently, she thought that this was somehow more believable and better. Now, either way, the cops thought that this person was extremely suspicious, obviously. So, an investigation into what actually happened had to go down as soon as possible. But before we get into what they found, when they finally did ID this lady and then went to her house, it's time to find out who the heck she was. And it turns out, in no surprise to any of you guys listening, this woman was none other than Kathy Coy. That same lady who said that she was going to take Jamie shopping for all of that baby supplies.

• 31:20Annie Elise?

  And it's safe to say now that the baby that she brought into this hospital posing as her own, pretending it was hers, was really Jamie's baby boy Isaiah. So what happened in the hours between Jamie leaving home and Kathy showing up at the hospital? And how did this seemingly kind woman with her own pregnancy story end up in the center of a situation that would turn into one of the most disturbing crimes that Bowling Green had ever seen? And again, I know you all know this by now, but this is just such a violent one that I want to warn you again that it's going to get even more gruesome as we walk through what happened to Jamie that day. So on the morning of April 13th, 2011, Kathy admitted to going to Jamie's house.

• 32:01Annie Elise?

  But she says that it was only to pick up Jamie's mom to give her a ride to the local social security office. Jamie then rode with Kathy and her mom to the social security office. And Kathy offered to give Jamie a ride home while her mother stayed in the office. According to Kathy, she dropped Jamie back off at her house and- That was really the end of it. So if anyone hurt Jamie, it was this mysterious Ashley person that Kathy would, you know, occasionally talk about. But we all know, and I think we can all agree, it wasn't. This fictitious Ashley person probably didn't exist. Or did she? So Kathy had spent weeks earning Jamie's trust, befriending her through social media, acting as though she was her friend, saying she could relate to her. And before she was supposed to take her home that day, Kathy offered to take Jamie out shopping for baby clothes.

• 32:45Annie Elise?

  But instead of ending up at any store, Kathy just kept driving. And she ended up taking Jamie to a remote wooded area right outside of Bowling Green. It wasn't a place that Jamie would have ever gone to on her own, but with Kathy leading the way, someone she thought was her friend, she didn't really see any danger. Not at first, anyway. But let's also not forget, because of how excited Jamie was about her future, it made her a little bit vulnerable. And that vulnerability isn't something to blame her for at all, it's just really to illustrate her state of mind that day. She had so much kindness, so much faith in people, and it's what made her loved by so many friends and family, but it's also what Kathy preyed on. So when Jamie and Kathy got to this remote area, that is when everything took a darker

• 33:30Annie Elise?

  turn. And by now, obviously, there were not any stores around, no baby stores, no malls, nothing like that. So I'm sure that Jamie was starting to get a little bit uneasy and even suspicious of what the heck they were doing out there. But before she could escape, Kathy attacked her with a stun gun. That made it almost impossible for Jamie to fight back. But because the police found those defensive wounds on Jamie's body, which I mentioned earlier, we do know that at some point, she was able to try and protect her own life and baby Isaiah's. Until the very end, she was so strong. And we know she would have made a great mother because she was doing everything that she could do to protect her baby. It just wasn't a match for Kathy and the tools that she brought with her to use against Jamie.

• 34:12Annie Elise?

  Some reports say that after the stun gun was used on Jamie, Kathy then used a drywall knife to slit Jamie's throats and wrists. Then with that same knife, she cut baby Isaiah out of his mom. Basically, she tried to perform an C-section. And I can't imagine how terrified Jamie was during this entire ordeal. I mean, just imagine yourself in this situation for a moment. One minute, you're with someone you trust, and then the next, your life is being taken away from you. And not just that, but maybe the life of the baby that you hadn't even gotten to meet yet. Now, I want to get into the why Kathy did this. And whatever her reason was, obviously, there's no justifying it. But surely, there must have been some sort of motive or reasoning, right?

• 34:57Annie Elise?

  But the truth is, we still have no clue what her motive was. I mean, I can take a guess, since we talked about why these other, you know, womb raiders did it in all of their cases. But thankfully, the police were about to find out the truth. Because when Kathy went to the hospital that day with baby Isaiah, not only did they learn that she didn't give birth to the baby that she showed up with, but remember that baby she also claimed to be pregnant with? It turns out Kathy wasn't pregnant at all. When Kathy was being questioned by the police, she told the detectives that she had, yes, been pregnant at one point, but she had a miscarriage. But then, with all the lies that Kathy had already told, it kind of seemed impossible to believe her. And as more information started to come out about everything that went down that day,

• 35:39Annie Elise?

  it should also come as no surprise that Kathy was arrested on the very same day that she showed up to the hospital with baby Isaiah and with Jamie's organs. But Kathy didn't make it very easy when it came to admitting what she had done. Her interrogation, it was truly insane, and I really got to give it up to the cops for this, who were able to mostly keep their heads on straight during the entire thing, instead of just like, straight up punching her, flipping the table over on her like most people would have done. But take a listen to this, because at one point, the cops leave Kathy alone, and she starts talking to Jamie's picture.

• 36:15Speaker 06

  I don't believe you're missing. And I'm in the middle of this, and I'm getting brain-bolt.

• 36:25Speaker 06

  Talk to me tomorrow.

• 36:31Speaker 06

  You've got to talk to me. You've got to call your mom. You've got to do something.

• 36:39Speaker 06

  Totally, totally getting blamed for everything. You were alive and you were kicking. You better call your mom.

• 36:49Speaker 06

  She ain't taking no fault for nothing.

• 37:05Speaker 06

  You better call. You better call somebody.

• 37:12Speaker 06

  We know good and damn well you're okay.

• 37:17Speaker 06

  Who you going?

• 37:35Speaker 06

  They believe I told you? I'm not capable of hurting anybody.

• 37:41Speaker 06

  You've got to call your mom. You've got to help me out here.

• 37:45Annie Elise?

  Now, I don't know what's really going on here and maybe if she was just laying the groundwork for being mentally incompetent or something like that, but it's definitely bizarre. And evidence would later reveal just how far Kathy went to plan this whole thing. The police felt like it was super clear from the start that Kathy hadn't just acted on impulse. She had spent weeks preparing for this, lying about her own pregnancy, and really building a connection with Jamie to make her feel safe. This was turning out to be a crime born out of manipulation, greed, and a serious disregard for human life. There was no way that this was some sort of spur-of-the-moment decision or even a crime of passion. And here's the other thing about Kathy's plan. We know it was horrifying, but it was also absurdly sloppy.

• 38:28Annie Elise?

  She spent weeks grooming Jamie, building trust, and crafting her story about the baby supplies, but when it came to covering her tracks, she didn't think things through, like, at all it seems. For starters, Kathy left a trail of digital footprints, from Facebook messages to text message conversations, you name it. And it also doesn't seem like she ever even accounted for how suspicious her hospital visit was going to look. And she completely underestimated how quickly law enforcement was going to be able to connect the dots. So when the investigators finally went to Kathy's home, it was game over for her. They did not even have to dig very hard to find the evidence that just screamed out, "Uh, yeah, she did it, this is our woman." The place was basically a crime scene that was just waiting to be processed.

• 39:13Annie Elise?

  First, there was blood. And not just a little bit, but detectives found blood in Kathy's car, on her clothes, even in random spots around the house. It was almost like she thought that Clorox wipes would just somehow magically erase all the traces of a literal murder, which, spoiler alert, they don't. So tests that were carried out by local law enforcement eventually confirmed that the blood matched Jamie. And listen to the cops explain to Kathy that the organs that she brought in also contained Jamie's DNA.

• 39:42Speaker 06

  Got your collar. Seen some stuff in your collar, got that? Right. Which I told him, there's blood in the placenta, so I say, it was blood on the outside handle. Yeah. It's from the placenta, saying we did. But do you know? But it was already bleeding when it was given. But that, that placenta? That's what I said at the place. But the placenta? Yeah. Carries parental DNA, okay? Okay. That, that, that DNA that's in that placenta, they can get DNA from the parents of that DNA, the placenta, and it shows exactly who the parents are. There's two options here.

• 40:22Speaker 06

  Either you've been planning this for several, several months, ever since you had your miscarriage back in January, or it was a sperm and mother thing. And the reason it makes a difference, here's the reason it makes a difference, okay? If this goes to

• 40:39Annie Elise?

  If this is a paramount thing, it's looked at different than if it's a plain premeditated act. You understand that? It's a much harsher penalty. Then there was the drywall knife that turned out to be the murder weapon. Now Kathy didn't exactly stash it in some remote location. It was right there in her house. Forensics found traces of blood on the blade, which also tied directly back to Jamie. It's almost like Kathy thought if she just tucked it away, the cops wouldn't even bother checking. Kathy also had baby items everywhere, way more than you would expect for someone who, as it turned out, wasn't actually pregnant. She had diapers, onesies, bottles, the whole setup. I mean, it was truly chilling. This wasn't just someone who was buying cute baby stuff for fun.

• 41:23Annie Elise?

  It was part of her twisted plan to pass off Jamie's baby as her own. And listen to a neighbor of Kathy's talk about how she stopped at this woman's garage sale and bought a few items just the week before all of this went down.

• 41:35Speaker 05

  She actually told me that someone gave her a baby bed. And she came over and after the yard sale was shut down on my front porch, everything packed, and purchased a baby bumper for that baby bed. Nothing seemed out of place to me. She actually talked a few moments and then she left. She has been telling everyone that she was pregnant and we had no reason not to believe.

• 42:00Annie Elise?

  Cops also found a fetal heart monitor, which is something that can be bought online. Sometimes pregnant people buy it to listen to their baby's heartbeat at home, but they can be a little bit tricky to use, I'll be honest, because unless you position it in the exact right spot, it's just going to pick up the mother's heartbeat. But anyway, Kathy apparently bought one and she was using it to, quote, "prove to Shannon, her partner, that she was pregnant." So yes, Shannon might have heard a heartbeat when she showed him, but it wasn't a baby in the womb. It wasn't a baby's heartbeat that he was hearing. It was more than likely just Kathy's heart. And remember when she was questioned how Kathy started tripping over her own lies? First it was, you know, "I delivered the baby at home." Then it was "in the car." But by the third version of the story, it was clear that she had absolutely no clue

• 42:45Annie Elise?

  how to keep her lies straight. And let's not forget about all of the digital evidence, which is... That's what's going to get you every time. And Kathy was practically leaving breadcrumbs all over Facebook. Investigators found tons of messages between her and Jamie, all pointing to Kathy's plan to lure her in under the appearance of getting free baby supplies. Apparently Kathy introduced herself to Jamie by saying, "How are you? I hear you're going to be a mom." And then the last few messages were especially damning, because Kathy was arranging to meet Jamie the day she went missing. And as it turns out, it wasn't just Jamie that Kathy befriended. She also connected with Jamie's mom, Jeannie. They exchanged a ton of messages in the weeks leading up to Jamie's murder, with Kathy just acting super friendly to her, even saying that she was going to help them find housing

• 43:30Annie Elise?

  if they were ever facing eviction. I mean, trying to be like this family saving grace. In one message, Kathy even goes on to say that she feels like it was destiny that they met. Oh, and as if that wasn't enough, police also found searches on Kathy's computer that were, of course, highly incriminating. Stuff like "how to perform a C-section." And Kathy's obsession with having a baby wasn't something that just appeared overnight. According to her neighbors and her friends, she had been faking pregnancies for months, if not longer. She told everyone who would listen that she was expecting. And to make her lie even more convincing, she even stole a sonogram photo to pass around and pretend was her own. She had stolen that picture from a friend months prior to this

• 44:14Annie Elise?

  because she wanted to keep her whole pregnancy story going. But probably the most disturbing of all of this is that Kathy even tried to drag her own children into this plan.

• 44:29Speaker 01

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• 44:47Speaker 01

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• 44:54Annie Elise?

  First three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at MintMobile.com. So at one point Kathy actually asked her teenage son if he would help her commit murder. According to investigators, she floated the idea to him to like do, you know, a temperature check. And when he immediately shut it down, she brushed it off as a joke, like, haha, I'm just kidding, you know, unless you're interested, wink, wink. Now, her daughter wasn't left out of this mess either. While Kathy didn't directly ask her for help with the murder, she had told her that she recently miscarried and that she planned to kidnap a child, sort of laying the groundwork for what was about to happen. Her kids also told the investigators that Kathy had purchased the stun gun that was used on Jamie just a short time before at a flea market. Her kids were with her when she bought it.

• 45:38Annie Elise?

  Now, knowing what we know now, this whole thing, it just paints a chilling picture of how far Kathy was willing to go and how little she cared about dragging her own children into it. Which this whole thing is so insane to me because you already have two healthy children. Why do you have to commit murder and steal another child? What is the driving force behind that? Which, I'll talk about more in a bit here, but I've got to say, it's to keep Shannon around, right? Maybe thinking it's the Band-Aid for the relationship. Now, this also wasn't the first time that Kathy had gotten into trouble with the law, though it was shaping up to be the more serious time of all of them. But according to court records, Kathy separated from her first husband in November of 2000. This was after she was indicted on a second degree assault charge.

• 46:23Annie Elise?

  He accused her of literally stabbing him in the back, although the case was dismissed the following year. And just when you think that Kathy couldn't make this case even any more psychotic, investigators discovered something else that made this even more chilling. It turns out that Jamie was not the only pregnant woman that Kathy had been talking to on Facebook. There were others, and the authorities had to track all of them down as soon as possible to make sure that they were safe or to see if Kathy had gotten to them as well. Now fortunately, when the police tracked these women down, they were all safe and sound, like, thank God. But still, Kathy would not admit that she was the one who had done anything to Jamie. She was holding steady, saying, this was all this Ashley And as it turns out, there was an Ashley.

• 47:08Annie Elise?

  Now buckle up, because Ashley allegedly lives inside Kathy's head. During the interrogation, Kathy started switching personalities between her own and this Ashley persona. Ashley comes off as difficult, super stubborn, very, you know, hard-headed, not to mention extremely, extremely mean. But the police also sort of felt like Kathy was just messing around, putting on an act. But take a listen and decide for yourself. I want you to listen to Kathy being Ashley.

• 47:38Speaker 06

  And so, I just think you both know who I am now. I understand you. You're the fun. No, and by that saying, they, oh Kathy has put pumpkin eyes in her. Listen, listen. What? Just tell me. You're wrong Kathy, everybody was doing. I ain't coming Kathy. Let's talk about where Jamie's at, and then we'll talk about whatever you want to talk. We'll talk about whatever you want to talk about after that. Just tell me where she's at, I'll send them guys to go get it, and you'll sit here and bullshit the rest of the night, you know what I'm saying? But you're acting like I give a fuck. I ain't saying to give a fuck. I'm not, I'm, you're tired of talking about this shit, ain't you? And I'm gonna go pee? Tell me where she's at and go pee.

• 48:22Speaker 06

  No, I have to pee and I'll piss on myself, I don't care.

• 48:25Annie Elise?

  So then, after what was probably one of the strangest interrogations they've ever done, the police finally handcuffed Kathy, but she did not go easily.

• 48:35Speaker 04

  You know what's funny about it?

• 48:36Speaker 06

  You told me, you told me, you told me. Fine, fuckin' cut me.

• 48:41Speaker 04

  Oh, you're going. Oh, you're done. Weekend?

• 48:45Speaker 06

  No, please.

• 48:47Speaker 04

  Say bye-bye to your kids and everything else. Bye-bye to your kids and everything else, you're done.

• 48:57Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 49:01Speaker 04

  You're cooperating?

• 49:02Speaker 06

  You want to tell us where? You want to tell us where Jamie's at? Please, please take him off my hands. We would check if we had to, and they're hurting, they're coming into my whip. I swear I will go to the prison. You're done. You're done, Helen. You're done. Have a seat. Get your trip.

• 49:21Speaker 06

  Have a seat. Get their done with you. You're done. We're done playing. Please, don't please. Let me tell you the bottom line. Let me tell you the bottom line here. Let me tell you, let me tell you the bottom line. You are a sorry ass. Get off my fucking face! Get off my fucking face! Okay? And you are going to prison. You're going to prison. Because I'm giving up. Come on. They're going to me, motherfuckers. Now, you're going to me. You're going to prove my whip. I proved my whip. You're going to my whip.

• 49:58Speaker 06

  Hey, let me ask you something. You going to court right now?

• 50:03Speaker 06

  You going to court right now? It's me, Kathy! Stop, stop, stop! I'm Kathy! Please, please, it's me, it's Kathy! Please, please stop! It's all? Stop! Kathy, Kathy, look at me! Please, I'm Kathy! We're done talking, honey. Where are we going? We're done talking.

• 50:23Annie Elise?

  After authorities had gathered enough evidence, Kathy's trial kicked off on March 1st, 2012, in Warren County, Kentucky. And honestly, by the time it started, that evidence against her was so overwhelming that there really was not much that she could do. So, she ended up pleading guilty. But not without a twist. Kathy pleaded guilty but mentally ill to murder, capital kidnapping, and kidnapping. And that part's important because it wasn't just a regular, straight-up guilty plea. This wasn't going to be a trial filled with dramatic witness testimonies or any last-minute evidence revealed. Now, for one, it saved her from possibly getting the death penalty. And, let's be real, with how brutal and calculated the whole thing was, the death penalty probably was definitely going to be on the table.

• 51:07Annie Elise?

  So by pleading this way, she also skipped the long, drawn-out trial that would have been brutal. for everybody involved, especially Jamie's family. Some people figured that she did this to make it appear like she was more remorseful, or maybe to make it look like she wasn't entirely in her right mind. Now during all of this Detective Chad Winn walked everyone through just how twisted Kathy's scheme was. Again, this wasn't a spur of the moment thing. Kathy had been plotting to kill Jamie and take her baby for months. All so she could keep her relationship going with Shannon and prove to everybody that she really had a baby. And here's one detective walking Kathy through his theory.

• 51:42Speaker 06

  Could you give the baby a better life than she could?

• 51:44Speaker 07

  No.

• 51:45Speaker 06

  Because you know why? It would give you a better life. Because the life that you wanted was Shannon. And you were desperate. You were desperate to-

• 51:53Speaker 07

  A baby was that.

• 51:54Speaker 06

  But, but listen. You a baby of Jamie's. Because you know it's Jamie's- Yeah, you a better life. Tell me, at least tell me this, you know it's Jamie's baby, right?

• 52:04Speaker 07

  Do I?

• 52:05Speaker 06

  You know it's Jamie's baby, right? You set it up to get Jamie's baby.

• 52:09Annie Elise?

  Now, one of the most wildest moments was hearing how Kathy had shown up at a friend's house after the crime, you know, with the baby in tow, acting like everything was fine. The friend had no idea what had really happened though, but Kathy was fully leaning into this lie, trying to convince people that she had just given birth. And people believed her, because why wouldn't they? Her neighbors even said that she had been telling everybody that she was pregnant for months, so they had no reason to doubt her. Now Jamie's friend Ashley summed it up perfectly, saying, "She was desperate to prove to everybody that she was pregnant." And I guess, nobody believed her. Throughout all of the actual trial, which did happen, Kathy barely showed any emotion. You would think that with everything laid out in court, she would show some type of regret, some sort of remorse. But she didn't.

• 52:54Annie Elise?

  She just sat there, almost detached, like she was watching somebody else's trial. It was a seriously different version of her than what we saw and even heard in some of that interrogation footage, where she was acting, you know, crazy, yelling at detectives, burping into her shirt, throwing things, even claiming that she had split personality disorder. Take a listen.

• 53:13Speaker 07

  Y'all trying to pin a murder on me?

• 53:17Speaker 06

  Who said murder?

• 53:18Speaker 07

  You trying to pin that on me?

• 53:19Speaker 06

  Who said murder? Kathy, who said murder?

• 53:21Speaker 07

  You think you can say that she did?

• 53:24Speaker 06

  I don't know.

• 53:25Speaker 07

  It's all this damn thing, you can't fucking erase it.

• 53:28Speaker 06

  She said she was, you said she was still kicking. Yep. That was exactly what she was.

• 53:37Speaker 06

  Where did you leave her? No, hell. Where did you leave her? You're not playing this fucking game now. Where did you leave her? You want me to keep talking and give you all the information you're making? Listen. Back the fuck up now. Let me ask you something. Calm down. No.

• 53:53Speaker 06

  Hello? Okay. Okay. Don't let her lady on, good for good.

• 53:59Speaker 06

  Talk to me about Jamie, she's right there.

• 54:03Speaker 06

  Tell me where she's at and then we'll talk about whatever you want to. She could be here, she could be there. Tell us where she is. Kathy would not. Damn. Y'all are paying me for fucking stupid.

• 54:15Annie Elise?

  So you have to wonder, was this decision to plead guilty truly Kathy's way of taking responsibility? Or was it yet another manipulation? Some people speculate that Kathy never wanted to face the public scrutiny of a full trial. Other people believe she knew her chances of beating a death penalty sentence were slim to none, so instead she opted for a plea deal to save her own life. But one of the hardest moments came when Jamie's family confronted Kathy directly. Jamie's mom made it clear that Kathy's actions were unforgivable, calling her a monster. But what stung the most was Kathy's lack of remorse. Her mom spoke of Jamie's joy, her excitement to be a mother, and the deep wound that her death has now inflicted on those who loved her.

• 54:58Annie Elise?

  Especially the baby who was ripped from his mom forever. When the sentencing finally came down, it was life without parole. Kathy had no chance of ever walking free, so it was a mix of relief and also sadness. Justice was served, but Jamie's family still had to live with what happened. In interviews after the sentencing, Jamie's family described their grief and her mother said, "There's no closure in a case like this. There's only the hope of learning to live with the pain." So after the sentencing, the family's focus really shifted to raising Jamie's son Isaiah, who was taken from her in just the most traumatic way possible. And honestly, this case leaves me with so many questions, even though it was clear cut with Kathy admitting what she had did and all of the evidence against her,

• 55:42Annie Elise?

  but it still leaves me with a lot of questions, and let me know what you guys think. Is life in prison a just sentence for Kathy? Or does she deserve the ultimate punishment for taking Jamie's life in such a brutal and horrific way? On one hand, life without parole is a severe punishment. Don't get me wrong. I mean Kathy will have no chance to walk free. She'll live out her days in a cell reflecting on what she did. For some people, that feels like the right balance, punishment without ending another life. But other people might feel like this sentence is almost lenient. The brutality of Kathy's crime, the betrayal, the violence, and the way she straight up discarded Jamie, it makes some people feel like the death penalty should have been on the table.

• 56:23Annie Elise?

  Jamie's family, who are all very pro-death penalty, have also voiced their dissatisfaction with the plea deal, arguing that Kathy does not deserve the life that she gets to continue living, even if it's behind bars. So was it fair to Jamie's family to deny them the full trial and possible death sentence that they were after? Or is the certainty of life without parole enough of a punishment? It's also worth considering what Kathy herself hoped to gain by avoiding the death penalty. I mean, did she see life in prison as a second chance, however grim that might be? Or was she terrified of the ultimate consequence if she was sentenced to death? I don't know. I don't know what the driving factor was. There's really no clear answer, but what we can agree on is that Kathy's actions robbed

• 57:05Annie Elise?

  Jamie of her life, her dreams, and her chance to be a mother. No sentence, in my opinion, no matter how harsh, could ever make up for that loss. And here's what Jamie's ex-boyfriend had to say about everything.

• 57:16Speaker 04

  Jamie was a lovely girl, always happy, you know, just had a great personality. And now because of this dangerous crime, our son's going to grow up without a mother.

• 57:28Annie Elise?

  Kathy's ability to manipulate trust is what makes this story so chilling, because when we meet people who seem kind and helpful, we want to believe the best about them, don't we? It's just human nature. We don't expect them to have ulterior motives, and we certainly don't expect them to be capable of something this terrible. And think about how many times you've put your trust in someone you didn't know very well. Maybe it was a stranger from an online group, or somebody you met through a mutual friend, maybe it was a blind date. It's so easy. Easy to believe that the people we encounter mean well. So first and foremost, be cautious about meeting people you've only interacted with online. It's so easy to trust someone who seems kind and genuine, but you never really know who's on the other side of the screen. If you're meeting someone to buy or sell something, or even just make a new friend,

• 58:13Annie Elise?

  please always meet in a public place and bring somebody with you. Always trust your instincts as well. If something feels off, it probably is. Do not ignore your gut feeling. And through all of this, I can't help but wonder, what kind of mother could Jamie have been? What could that have looked like for baby Isaiah? And growing up with his mom who loved him so much and was so excited for him? It's just heartbreaking to think she's not going to be at his games, she's not going to be at his parent teacher conferences, when he goes to prom, all of those big, big milestones. And for a kid to have to grow up with that, knowing the way they were brought into the world and their mom being disregarded? That is something I would not wish on my worst enemy.

• 58:55Annie Elise?

  And even though this case was so seriously disturbing, I don't often get the chance to end episodes on a positive note. And you're probably thinking, okay, Annie, well, what could possibly at all be positive about this? Well, let me tell you. According to Jamie's family, her baby Isaiah is doing really great. Her mom says that she sees Jamie in him so much, and it's such a gift that he made it out of this story alive and is able to be surrounded by people who love him every day. So I certainly hope Jamie's family and Isaiah, who right now is going to be a teenager this year, I hope they're all doing well. And I hope that they were able to heal from this horrific tragedy and find some new sense of peace and ability to move forward.

• 59:37Annie Elise?

  No matter how many times we talk about cases like this one, it never, ever gets easier, and the answers never become any more clear as to why people do this. So again, it's just one more reminder to please watch your back and stay safe. Thank you guys so much for hearing Jamie and Isaiah's story today, and I'm so happy he is alive well and with family who loves him. I'll be back on the mic with you Thursday for headline highlights and another deep dive, of course, next Monday over here on the podcast. Thank you guys for tuning in with me today. Until the next one, be nice, don't kill people, and I will just leave it at that. All right, bye.