322: Ellen Greenberg: Stabbed 20 Times, Ruled Suicide | Hulu’s Death in Apartment 603 Uncovers New Evidence

This is one of two episodes dropping today. When you’re done here, go straight to D4vd and Celeste Hernandez — it’s right above this one in your feed. In 2011, 27-year-old Ellen Greenberg was found dead in her apartment after sustaining 20 stab wounds. Her cause of death according to law enforcement? Self-inflicted. But was this really self-inflicted, or is there more to the story, as her family believes? A very special thank you to Ellen’s parents, Joshua and Sandee Greenberg for joining us on today’s episode. Justice for Ellen!🔎Join Our True Crime Club & Get Exclusive Content & Perks 🔎Join The Club: https://www.patreon.com/annieelise🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to EXTRA deep dive episodes every week on Apple!https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/serialously-with-annie-elise/id1519456164🚩Announcements🚩Want to Catch Annie LIVE on Tour? 🎤🎟Grab your tickets now for a city near you: https://annieelise.com/pages/tour🌸MERCH IS OFFICIALLY HERE! 🌸Shop now at https://annieelise.com/collections/shop-allDon't miss out before your faves sell out! 🛒🌷Follow Annie on Socials 📸🩷Instagram: @ _annieelise, https://www.instagram.com/_annieelise/?hl=en💜TikTok: @_annieelise, https://www.tiktok.com/@_annieelise?lang=en🗞️ Substack: @annieelise, https://substack.com/@annieelise💙Facebook: @10tolife, https://www.facebook.com/10toLIFE

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:27Annie Elise?

  Hey, true crime besties. Welcome back to an all-new episode of Serial Insulin.

• 1:51Annie Elise?

  Hey, true crime besties. Now, if you're anything like me and you watch all the documentaries, all the docu-series on Hulu, Netflix, HBO, all of the places, you've probably seen the new docu-series called Death in Apartment 603 on Hulu. It just launched today. It is the Story of Ellen Greenberg, and this is a case that has stuck with me for years. I first covered it years and years ago because there were so many red flags. It just did not add up. It made no sense. And then I covered it again more recently when and we actually had the opportunity to interview her family during that episode. So now with this new docu-series on Hulu and with the case back in the spotlight,

• 2:36Annie Elise?

  I wanted to reshare that episode with you. This is in addition to our regular deep dive episode that I also dropped on the feed today. Whether it's the first time you're hearing about this case, or maybe you too are revisiting it again based on this new docu-series. I do think it is the perfect time to listen, to brush back up on it, to give Ellen's case the awareness and the focus and attention that it needs and deserves. Because again, there are just so many things that do not make sense in this case. How they ruled this a suicide when she stabbed herself allegedly in the back of the neck. Multiple times, over 20 times.

• 3:19Annie Elise?

  Then how her fruit salad was still there on the counter. How there was weird traffic in and out of the crime scene before it was secure. Now, another reason that I wanted to re-release this original episode for you. Not only because this case has been thrust back into the spotlight with this new Hulu docu-series, but also because there has been a huge shift in this case. Just a few months back in February of 2025, there was a massive reversal here. The former Philadelphia Medical Examiner changed his opinion. He now is saying that Ellen was killed, that this was not a suicide. And as you hear this episode or re-familiarize with the case,

• 4:00Annie Elise?

  you'll see that originally it was ruled as a homicide, then it was switched to a suicide. Then after spending their life savings, Ellen's parents had just been fighting this, fighting it. Like, and so many people out there are outspoken about this too. Nancy Grace, I believe Court TV has been involved. I mean, so many different people who have followed this case. Closely for years and then finally now it has been overturned and it is now switching saying, oh no, my opinion is now that she was killed. This actual reversal too, came right at the time when jury selection began in the family's civil lawsuit against the city. That was later settled and you know, it was settled with this agreement that the current medical examiner would reexamine the case.

• 4:45Annie Elise?

  So it's going to be very interesting to see where this case goes. But first, I want to give you all of the details, lay everything out for you and have you brush back up on this case so that you can tell me what you think. There's so many shady things in this that I will be really curious to know what your take is on all of it. There are so many unanswered questions that still remain. So again, I just wanted to take this opportunity to put it back in the spotlight, especially now with this new Hulu series out there. And let's get right into it. This is the story of Ellen Greenberg.

• 5:22Speaker 04

  Case surrounding the death of a young Philadelphia teacher. Ellen Greenberg died back in 2011 after being stabbed 20 times. Her death was initially ruled a suicide and then a homicide and then back to a suicide. Now Guy DeAndrea, a former assistant district attorney who worked on the case, has doubts about her death. Greenberg's family believes she was murdered.

• 5:45Annie Elise?

  Boy, oh boy, do we have a mega crazy case to talk about today, guys. It is one that is extremely controversial. There are a lot of opinions on both sides of this. It's one where there's, you know, allegations of conspiracy, corruption, cover-ups, all sorts of different things. And it's a case I've actually been covering for quite a few years and researching for quite a few years to where I feel like even in all of the information that I have dug up and gathered, I feel like it's pretty clear what the truth really is in this case. So I don't understand how there is so much division, yet there is, and you'll understand why as we get into the details. Now Ellen Greenberg was a 27 year

• 6:30Annie Elise?

  First grade teacher living in Philadelphia. She was well loved by all of her students, her friends, her family, her colleagues. She was really just known for her caring nature and also for her dedication to teaching. Now Ellen was also engaged to Sam Goldberg. Their wedding was planned for August 2011. So by all accounts, Ellen, at just 27, seemed to have a really bright future ahead. One full of love, marriage, a professional career that was just on the upswing. All sorts of great things happening in her life. However, beneath the surface, something darker was brewing. Something that would ultimately lead to one of the most perplexing and controversial cases in recent history. What's the truth of what happened to Ellen Greenberg?

• 7:13Annie Elise?

  As a reminder, everything in this episode is either sourced from court documents, footage, testimony of family members, or it's my opinion only. So as always, please form your own opinions and do your own research. We also interviewed Ellen's parents, Joshua and Sandy Greenberg. And we're going to be including key points of that conversation we had with them in this episode so that it can provide deeper insight into their experience throughout this entire ordeal. On January 26th, 2011, Ellen started her morning like any other morning. As I said, she was a first grade local school teacher in Philadelphia. So she got ready for work and she headed off to school. Now on her way to work, she called her mom. This was at approximately 7:00 a.m. And it's something that she routinely did.

• 7:57Annie Elise?

  Her mom would be on the way into work for the morning as well, so they would use that period of driving in to just talk, catch up, things like that.

• 8:03Speaker 05

  You know, a hard worker. She had a fibocous personality. She was enthusiastic with her children, with the teaching. She loved, she loved her, she did love her career. She put a lot into it, but it came, a lot of it came very naturally to her. As a child, she was, you know, fun-loving, normal. She was athletic. She was artistic. She, you know, loved fashion. She loved sports. She left school and she just had a knack of bringing, you know,

• 8:45Speaker 05

  her friends from different parts of her life together and never thought twice about, you know, just because they didn't know each other. She says to me, "Mom, I can make them be friends."

• 8:57Annie Elise?

  Nothing was out of the norm and it seemed like it was just going to be a standard day like every other day. However, that afternoon, a blizzard hit Philadelphia and this wasn't just a small blizzard or a tiny little snow day. This was like one of those like nor'easter blizzards, like the massive snowfall to where work is shut down, schools are shut down, everything closes. So because of that, Ellen ended up leaving school early. It was a snow day. And if you've ever lived on the east coast or if you're familiar, you definitely know how that goes. I remember when I was living in New York, it happened at least once a season, usually even more than that. But in any event, around 1:30 PM, Ellen was on her way back to the apartment that she shared with her fiance, Sam. The two of them lived in this stunning

• 9:39Annie Elise?

  two-bedroom apartment in a luxury building called the Venice Lofts and she was heading home for the day. It was nice. It was going to be a shorter day. On the way, she decided to stop for gas and then after filling up her tank, she headed directly to the apartment. When Ellen arrived home, she entered the apartment. She started working on grading papers, homework, things like that. She also made a fruit salad for lunch and just started to unwind from her day. Her fiance, Sam, was home, but he ended up leaving to go work out in the building gym downstairs. They lived on the sixth floor and the gym of the building was on the first floor. So he heads out to the gym at around 4:45 PM. He returned to their apartment about 45 minutes later at 5:30 PM. However, when he returned, the apartment was

• 10:22Annie Elise?

  locked from the inside. It had been locked using the swing bar latch, you know, the kind that pulls over and it has like the barbell that hangs out and it's just that extra interior lock. So he shouted for Ellen, you know, "Come, unlock the door, let me in." He also texted her nine times. Now, these text messages start with just asking her to open the door, but then they start increasingly becoming more panicked, also a little bit aggressive. These messages read, "Hello, open the door. What are you doing? You better have an excuse. I'm getting pissed." "Hello," in all caps. Then another one that said, "You have no idea."

• 11:02Annie Elise?

  So she wasn't responding to these text messages. She also wasn't answering his phone calls, and that made him increasingly irritated. So then, he started shouting through the door opening. Because if you're familiar with this lock, then you know you can open the door, but there's like a two to three inch little gap where you can kind of see inside, kind of not, but you still can't get through. So he opens that and he's shouting, "Let me in, let me in, Ellen, where are you, where are you?" He also says that he went down to the doorman of the building to see if maybe he could help him access the apartment. However, for whatever reason, the doorman refused. He said he couldn't. I don't know if it was a restriction of the building, maybe a privacy issue. I'm not entirely sure. But finally, after there was still no answer, Sam ended up forcing his way through the door, breaking that swing bar lock.

• 11:44Annie Elise?

  And what he found inside was his absolute worst nightmare. Ellen, his fiancee, just 27 years old, was lying in a pool of blood in the kitchen, and she had a knife plunged inside her chest. It was an absolute nightmarish scene that really seemed to come directly out of a horror movie. Now, quickly, before we move on, I want to talk about the timeline of events and Ellen's movements that day, starting from when she left school to then when she was found dead in her kitchen. I feel like it's something we need to go through so that we can understand what could have happened in that window of time and what the events were leading up to her being found dead on her kitchen floor. So as I said, she got gas at around 1:30 PM. At 2:30 PM, she called a restaurant,

• 12:29Annie Elise?

  which was located about 30 minutes away from her apartment. It's unclear if she was calling this restaurant to make a reservation, to order food for pickup, to perhaps cancel an existing reservation. It's unclear. But it is possible that she was calling to make a dinner reservation, since now she was getting home for the day much earlier than she normally did. It's also possible she was trying to order food for pickup later. But regardless, we know that she did make that call. At 3:47 PM, she sends a text message from her phone. And then at 4:45 PM, there's activity on her computer. A few minutes after that activity on her computer, at 4:50 PM is when her fiance, Sam, went to the gym downstairs of the building. Then, at 5:26 PM, Sam leaves the gym.

• 13:13Annie Elise?

  And as I said, their apartment was on the sixth floor and the gym was on the first floor, so that would allow him just a few minutes to get upstairs. So if he left at 5:26 PM, let's say he arrives to the apartment and starts knocking around 5:30 PM, give or take a few minutes. So he tries texting her and gaining access for 22 minutes, putting it somewhere around 5:50 PM to 6 PM. He's also seen on camera entering the first floor elevator for the last time at 6:28 PM. And then a 911 call is placed three minutes later at 6:31 PM. So going off of that timeline, it indicates that he's downstairs talking to the doorman, trying to get him to, you know, come and open the door, gain access to the apartment.

• 13:55Annie Elise?

  He goes up the elevator at 6:28, breaks down the door, finds Ellen, and then calls 911 three minutes later. However, if we go back to that timeline, there's a window from when the texting stops after 22 minutes, around 5:50 to 6 PM, and then when he is seen on the elevator at 6:28 PM. So what was going on in that 20 to 30 minute window? Was he trying to get the doorman's attention for 20 or 30 minutes? There are some reports that he had tried to get the doorman's attention three different times, going up and down, up and down, maybe going back and forth. The only thing that we actually do know about that window of time is that Sam called his cousin, Camion Schwartzman, at 6:14 PM. This was 17 minutes before the 911 call.

• 14:39Annie Elise?

  Camion's dad, Sam's uncle, James Schwartzman, also allegedly called Sam at 6:26 PM. This incoming call was before the 911 call was made, but after Sam had called his cousin earlier. Now, a little interesting detail, both Camion and his father, James, are lawyers. When Sam called 911, he was instructed to start CPR until he noticed that knife that was plunged in Ellen's chest. Then, he was instructed to stop.

• 15:08Speaker 06

  Hello, FBI Department, eight four two, what's the address? No, two four-

• 15:11Speaker 07

  Uh, forty-six oh one Flat Rock Road, please hurry.

• 15:15Speaker 06

  Forty-six oh one Flat Rock?

• 15:17Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 15:17Speaker 06

  What's wrong?

• 15:19Speaker 07

  My, like, I just, my, I went downstairs to go work out, I came back up, the door was latched. My fiance's inside, she wasn't, she wasn't answering, so after about a half hour, I decided to break it down. I see her now, just on the floor, blood, she's not, she's not responding.

• 15:35Speaker 06

  Okay, is she breathing?

• 15:36Speaker 07

  She, I-

• 15:38Speaker 06

  Look at her chest, I need you to calm down, and I need you to look at her chest, it's really-

• 15:41Speaker 07

  I don't think she, I really don't think she is-

• 15:43Speaker 06

  Listen to me, someone's on the way, look at her chest, is she flat on her back?

• 15:48Speaker 07

  She's on her back, do I bring her-

• 15:49Speaker 06

  Can you look at her chest and tell me if it's going up and down, up and down?

• 15:53Speaker 07

  I don't see her moving.

• 15:54Speaker 06

  Okay, do you know how to do CPR?

• 15:56Speaker 07

  I don't.

• 15:57Speaker 06

  Okay, I can tell you what to do, okay, until they get there, I want you to keep her flat on her-

• 16:01Speaker 07

  Oh, God.

• 16:02Speaker 06

  Hello?

• 16:02Speaker 07

  Yeah, hi, okay.

• 16:03Speaker 06

  Are you willing to do CPR with me over the phone until they get there?

• 16:06Speaker 07

  I g- I, I have to, right?

• 16:07Speaker 06

  Okay, so get her flat on her back, bare her chest, okay, you wanna rip her shirt off?

• 16:12Speaker 07

  Oh, shit.

• 16:13Speaker 06

  Okay, you need to deal down by her side.

• 16:16Speaker 07

  Oh, my God, Ellie, please.

• 16:18Speaker 06

  Listen, listen, you can't freak out, sir, 'cause you gotta-

• 16:20Speaker 07

  Okay, I'm trying not, I'm trying not, her shirt won't come off, it's a zipper.

• 16:24Speaker 06

  Rip it off.

• 16:25Speaker 07

  Oh, my God, she stabbed herself!

• 16:27Speaker 06

  Where?

• 16:28Speaker 07

  She fell on a knife, oh, no, her knife's sticking out.

• 16:31Speaker 06

  Her what?

• 16:32Speaker 07

  There's a knife sticking out of her heart.

• 16:34Speaker 06

  Oh, she stabbed herself?

• 16:36Speaker 07

  I ca- I guess so, I don't know where she fell on it, I don't know.

• 16:39Speaker 06

  Okay, well, don't touch it.

• 16:41Speaker 07

  Okay, so I'm just, I'm just letting her out here now, I mean, what do I do?

• 16:43Speaker 06

  No, I mean, you can't, if the knife is at her chest, it's gonna be kinda hard for you to do CPR at this time.

• 16:49Speaker 07

  Oh, no, oh, my goodness, okay.

• 16:52Speaker 06

  Police, which operator? Two seven seven.

• 16:54Speaker 07

  Is someone coming here?

• 16:55Speaker 06

  Yes, they are, you said forty-six oh one Flat Rock, right?

• 16:58Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 17:00Speaker 06

  Okay, someone's on the way, and the knife is still inside?

• 17:03Speaker 07

  Which, or what?

• 17:04Speaker 06

  The knife is still inside of her?

• 17:06Speaker 07

  Yes, I didn't take it out.

• 17:07Speaker 06

  Was it her chest, or what area that it-

• 17:09Speaker 07

  It's in her chest, it's like, it looks like it's right, it's, looks like it's right in her heart.

• 17:15Speaker 06

  Okay, someone's on the way out there, okay, just get the-

• 17:17Speaker 07

  Oh, my God, oh, my God, okay, thank you.

• 17:19Speaker 06

  How old is she?

• 17:20Speaker 07

  She's twenty-seven.

• 17:21Speaker 06

  Twenty-seven, and there's no sign of life at all? I've been turned to her arm.

• 17:26Speaker 07

  No, no, please, don't be, what?

• 17:28Speaker 06

  Been turned to her arm, and tell me if she responds to pain.

• 17:31Speaker 07

  She's, Ellie!

• 17:35Speaker 07

  She's not, she's not, her arm, her hands are still warm. I don't know what that means. But there's blood everywhere, I mean.

• 17:40Speaker 06

  I know, but you can't, and the knife is still inside of her. How far, can you see how far it went in?

• 17:44Speaker 07

  It looks pretty deep.

• 17:46Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 17:47Speaker 07

  It looks three, and it's a long knife.

• 17:49Speaker 06

  Don't touch anything, sir.

• 17:49Speaker 06

  Yeah, don't touch anything, okay?

• 17:51Speaker 07

  I'm not touching anything. This is, we, I can't believe this, though.

• 17:54Speaker 06

  So wait, it was just you there with her?

• 17:57Speaker 07

  We, yeah, we're the only ones here.

• 17:58Speaker 06

  And she ran in the door, you said, latched it shut?

• 18:01Speaker 07

  No, no, I, I, I went downstairs to work out, and I, when I came back up, the door was latched.

• 18:08Speaker 06

  Oh.

• 18:08Speaker 07

  Like, it was, you know, it wasn't like it was, you know, it was like locked from the inside. And I'm yelling, and I saw it, so I'm, you know, yelling and then I get-

• 18:15Speaker 06

  Was your house broken into?

• 18:17Speaker 07

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 18:18Speaker 06

  So there's no sign of a break-in?

• 18:20Speaker 07

  No, no sign of a break-in at all. I mean, there will be when you get here, because I had to break the latch, but, to get in.

• 18:27Speaker 06

  Okay, forty-six zero one Flat Rock, and this is a house, right?

• 18:30Speaker 07

  It's an apartment, Flat Rock, apartment six oh three.

• 18:33Speaker 06

  Okay, that'll help. Apartment six oh three.

• 18:34Speaker 07

  Oh my god, oh my god, all right, thank you. Bye.

• 18:39Annie Elise?

  What I do find interesting about this call is that Sam says that she was on her back, that he can't get her shirt off. But if that's the case, he didn't notice the knife that was sticking out of her chest? Now, in another detail, just referencing the timeline, Kamiun arrived at the apartment three minutes after that nine-one-one call was made, at approximately six thirty-four P M. So the E M Ts arrived pretty much immediately, just five minutes after the nine-one-one call was made, and they discovered that not only did Ellen have this knife in her chest, but she had been stabbed twenty times. That wound in her chest was just one of twenty different stab wounds that were discovered on her head, her neck, her back, and her torso.

• 19:21Annie Elise?

  One of the stab wounds to the back of her head was actually so deep that it penetrated her brain. There were also eleven bruises on her body, all in various stages of healing. They were located on her right arm, her abdomen, and her right leg. There was clearly nothing that the E M Ts could do to save Ellen at this point. So at approximately six forty P M that evening, just a few minutes after arriving, Ellen was pronounced dead. The E M S who pronounced Ellen as dead made a comment on the scene about needing to get back to the station, knowing that they would need to be interviewed by the homicide team, given this horrific crime scene. So as the police began investigating the crime scene, they ended up finding no evidence of an intruder.

• 20:04Annie Elise?

  The six-story apartment could only be accessed from the front door and from the exterior balcony, but there was a complete fresh layer of snow outside from that snowstorm, and it was completely undisturbed. No footprints, no movement, nothing. Officers also noted that there was nothing to suggest that a robbery had taken place. There were plenty of valuables still visible all around the home. So the question that immediately arose, of course, was, who could have committed such a heinous, horrific murder? But as the investigators began to piece together the scene, the case took a very strange and unexpected turn.

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• 21:09Speaker 01

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• 21:34Annie Elise?

  So the investigators are going through the scene, trying to comb through all pieces of evidence. And given the violent nature of the crime, the initial suspicions, of course, naturally turned toward homicide. However, that locked door presented a very complex and bizarre situation. Because how could someone have murdered Ellen, but then locked the door from the inside, leaving absolutely no trace of them leaving, no trace of their escape? Now, my initial thought, I'll be honest, when I heard this was, okay, obviously it was the fiance, right? He had access to the apartment, she had bruises. Were they new? Were they old? The amount of wounds would indicate a crime of passion and possibly even overkill, right? It must have been someone close to Ellen, surely, right?

• 22:17Annie Elise?

  So the police took her fiance Sam away from the scene in handcuffs and they questioned him some more. However, Ellen's parents told the police they had absolutely no reason to suspect her fiance. And Ellen's psychiatrist, who she had been seeing for anxiety, said that Ellen was happy in the relationship. She had denied that any abuse ever happened in the relationship. She was happy, she was in love, they were planning their wedding, I mean, they were just happy. So as investigators went deeper into the evidence, they were faced with many conflicting signs. To start, there were no signs of forced entry or a struggle happening within the apartment. However, the brutality of how Ellen died and having that many stab wounds, it surely suggested either a frenzied murder or, what I said earlier, a crime of passion.

• 23:02Annie Elise?

  Although the knife wounds, though severe and numerous, they didn't appear to be consistent with a typical homicide pattern. There was also that locked door, a detail that really seemed to suggest that nobody else could have entered or left the apartment. So with no suggestion that another person had been inside the apartment at the time of her death, police at the scene suspected that the death was actually a suicide. Particularly because there was a lack of defensive wounds, also no sign of an intruder at all ever entering. So despite there being no suicide note left behind and despite the barbaric horrific 20 stab wounds, the crime was treated as a suicide. However, the very next day, the medical examiner reached a different conclusion.

• 23:45Annie Elise?

  This was upon seeing just how many stab wounds there truly were. In his report, the medical examiner classified the death as a homicide. But then, there was allegedly this secret meeting that took place. In the meeting, there were members of the ME's office, the police department, also the DA's office, and allegedly in this meeting, they had somehow convinced the medical examiner to change the manner of death to a suicide. The Philadelphia Police Department stated, quote, "The death of Ellen Greenberg has not been ruled a homicide. Homicide investigators are considering the manner of death as suspicious at this time." So nevertheless, the investigation continued. But after learning about Ellen seeing her therapist for anxiety and her being on anxiety

• 24:29Annie Elise?

  medication, police said that they were leaning toward the determination of suicide. Her psychiatrist had prescribed her Klonopin for anxiety, also Ambien for sleep, both of which medications do list suicidal ideations as possible side effects. However, nobody close to Ellen had heard her express any thoughts of harming herself. Never. For five weeks, investigators went back and forth on what happened. Upon the first review, there were no suspects. Ellen was alone inside the apartment, which had been locked from the inside with that interior swing bar. Neighbors didn't hear her reporting any sort of disturbance. There was also no security footage or stolen property to suggest that there had been an intruder. And what's more, were those defensive wounds, or lack thereof.

• 25:14Annie Elise?

  And in another piece of evidence, there was no DNA but Ellen's found on the knife. No DNA from anybody else found on her clothing either. So on March 3rd, armed now with more information, the medical examiner changed the death certificate to reflect that Ellen's death was in fact a suicide. As you can imagine, Ellen's family was devastated by her death, but they were also deeply skeptical of the suicide ruling. How could their loving, kind-hearted daughter have done this to herself? The sheer number of stab wounds alone seemed absolutely implausible as a self-inflicted act. So Ellen's parents, Josh and Sandy Greenberg, began their own investigation. They were determined to find the truth behind their daughter's death.

• 25:58Annie Elise?

  They hired private investigators, forensic experts, they even hired a renowned pathologist to review the case. The experts that they consulted were all unanimous in their findings. Ellen's wounds were inconsistent with suicide. The angle and the depth of the stab wounds, particularly those to the back of her neck, were nearly impossible for somebody to inflict on themselves. And remember that EMS who declared Ellen as dead and mentioned how they needed to get back to the station because they knew that the homicide team would need to question them regarding the scene? Get this: they were never questioned. Which let that just sink in, the first responders, the ones who saw the scene and declared Ellen as dead, were never even questioned.

• 26:41Annie Elise?

  Ellen's parents also uncovered new disturbing details about this investigation. Crucial evidence like Ellen's computer and cellphone had not been thoroughly analyzed. Blood spatter patterns which could have provided vital clues were also just overlooked. The locked door, once considered definitive proof of suicide, was also reexamined, and it revealed that it could have been tampered with, or it could have even been locked after the fact. And perhaps the most glaringly obvious issue of all was that Ellen had shown absolutely no signs of mental duress leading up to her death. Yes, she had been seeking help for anxiety, but nothing indicated that she was suicidal. I had asked, like, was there a fight or anything?

• 27:24Annie Elise?

  He said, "No, she was just really stressed with work." And so he left. When he came back, he said it was about a half hour later, and he, you know, went to use his key to open, and he said that the door was latched. I actually had written all this down, so I just looked back, you know, through my notes to refresh my memory. So it was latched. He said that he, you know, called her, called her name, you know, thought maybe she was napping or in the shower. He said he called her mom then to see if, you know, she mentioned anything to her mom, and she hadn't heard anything.

• 28:05Annie Elise?

  Then he said at that point he went downstairs to the, uh, to the front door, or to the security, and asked if maintenance was there and they could help him get into the apartment. And they said, you know, "Maintenance is gone for the day." And he said the advice he was given was to use his shoulder. You know, if he's going to try to break open the door, use his shoulder. So then he went back up, and he said he used his shoulder. He said it took one, maybe two times. He doesn't, didn't remember. And the force that he used swung open the door, and he spun around and was facing the kitchen and saw her.

• 28:47Annie Elise?

  And he said her, uh, you know, her, her back and shoulders were, were kind of up against the, the lower cabinets.

• 28:58Annie Elise?

  And he said her little fingers were blue. I remember him saying that her little fingers were blue. And he said he called 911 immediately and they were gonna instruct him to do CPR, so he moved her to the floor. And at that time, he saw the knife.

• 29:16Speaker 07

  You were questioned by the police at one point?

• 29:18Annie Elise?

  Yes. So, um, the week of February 7th, I was back in town. I had been in New Orleans for work. I came back and I was asked by the homicide unit to come down to Philadelphia, I believe it was the Ray Street location, so that they could question me, obviously, just as more of a, you know, what information could they get as a friend? And I was interviewed by there. It was the strangest feeling to be in there. So I'm like, this is not my life. What am I doing here? I remember just feeling like they were, they didn't care what I was saying. It was almost like they were checking the box that they had me there.

• 30:00Annie Elise?

  And at one point, he even said, are you trying to point fingers here? And I said, no, I'm just answering your questions and giving you the information that I know. I'm only giving you fact. So, yeah.

• 30:13Speaker 07

  So, did you feel like they had already had their mind made up about what happened?

• 30:18Annie Elise?

  Yeah. Yeah. This was like, oh, I have to just do this. Let me get this over with. Like, I didn't feel like they were interested in what I had to say. And again, not that I, I wasn't there that day. So I have no information of what happened. But I knew what he had told me. And I knew who, you know, Ellen was. And I, you know, knew a little bit about the apartment. I knew a little bit about their routines. And, but they, they had no interest in hearing from me.

• 30:48Speaker 07

  Yeah. So, so now, records are coming out. Is there any documentation of your conversation with police?

• 30:53Annie Elise?

  Nope.

• 30:54Speaker 07

  There's no police report?

• 30:55Annie Elise?

  Right. Apparently, the, you know, the last that I've heard of, the 5,000-page document that lawyers have gone through, there's no, no report in there of, of my interview with police. And I know for a fact, I was there at homicide headquarters, talking to Detective Harris.

• 31:18Speaker 07

  Did you see him write something down?

• 31:20Annie Elise?

  Yes, I saw him write something down and I was there. So whether or not he was writing, you know, what he did with that paper, it should have still been documented that I was there. Let's also talk about the scene of the crime for a moment because new forensic evidence suggested that the scene may have been staged. Blood evidence that was found in the kitchen did not align with the official narrative. Now, something that I don't think is talked about enough in this case, and I could totally be wrong. This is just my opinion and I'm not an expert. But remember how I mentioned when Ellen got home that day and she made that fruit salad, whether it was for lunch or for a snack? Well, in the crime scene photos, you can still see remnants of that fruit salad and scattered parts of it on the kitchen counter, right above Ellen's dead body.

• 32:05Annie Elise?

  Now, I understand people who are suicidal may not always be thinking rationally. But in all of the cases that I've covered, I have never seen or heard of somebody making a meal before taking their own life and not eating the meal. So believing that Ellen committed suicide would also mean that you believe that she made herself lunch in the kitchen, chose not to eat it, and instead chose to grab a knife and stab herself 20 times, stabbing herself in the torso, the back of her head, the neck, her spine? Such deep stab wounds too, that it penetrated her brain. I mean, it doesn't really align, right? I'm not a detective and this is me just theorizing here, guys, but doesn't that scene feel more in line with somebody either catching Ellen by surprise?

• 32:50Annie Elise?

  Or maybe even perhaps blitz attacking her? And say grabbing a knife because it's nearby from maybe cutting a fruit salad? And the perpetrator grabbing that as a weapon to murder her in this overkill, crime of passion type of way? Which by the way, if you look at the knife that was used and that was plunged into Ellen's chest, it certainly aligns with a knife that would be used to cut this fruit salad, the one that she made for herself to eat. So was the knife conveniently on the counter for whoever used this? Or did Ellen just have a change of heart and instead of eating the snack that she had just cut up, she decided to plunge? The knife into herself 20 times? Despite the growing body of evidence suggesting that Ellen could not have killed herself,

• 33:33Annie Elise?

  authorities remained firm on their conclusion. The case was closed as a suicide, leaving the Greenbergs in a state of just extreme frustration and anger. And for over the past decade, Ellen's parents have spearheaded their own investigation, even hiring an attorney to help them file a lawsuit against the medical examiner's office, all so that they will change the cause of death to homicide.

• 33:55Speaker 05

  She was afraid of pain and she was afraid of blood. So to try to accuse her of committing suicide with a serrated knife, and there were straight edge wounds that were also found, which means there may have been more than one knife involved, and there may have been more than one person involved in her murder. But we haven't had an investigation, a legitimate one, so the jury's still out on what really happened to Ellen.

• 34:30Annie Elise?

  They found two neuropathologists to review the autopsy report, also to examine the brain tissue samples from Ellen that were retained by the doctor who did the autopsy. And both of these doctors agree that the evidence shows that suicide is not even a possibility. Fast forward nearly eight years, and on March 15th, 2019, the Philadelphia Inquirer released a front page investigative report reviewing the suspicious circumstances surrounding Ellen's death. A well-known Pittsburgh forensic pathologist also reviewed the case and determined that it was, quote, "strongly suspicious of homicide." They also stated, quote, "I don't know how they wrote this off as a suicide."

• 35:11Annie Elise?

  Similarly, a forensic scientist reviewed the case files and concluded, quote, "The number and types of wounds and bloodstain patterns observed are consistent with a homicide scene." Now, one significant point of contention was the stab wounds that penetrated Ellen's brain. One of the doctors who examined the file wrote that the stab wounds to the brain and the spinal cord would have caused such severe pain, also cranial nerve dysfunction and traumatic brain injuries. The original medical report stated that a neuropathologist determined that there was no such wound, though. However, later, when they were interviewed by the Philadelphia Inquirer, that same pathologist revealed that she didn't even observe Ellen's body.

• 35:53Annie Elise?

  And she confirmed that she has no records, no bills, no invoices, no reports of any examination ever even taking place, which, how does that happen? That's a pretty big detail to miss, right? A pretty big discrepancy. As I mentioned, Ellen's parents filed a civil suit against the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office and the pathologist who conducted the autopsy. The suit seeks to change the manner of death citing new information and the fact that the doctor who did the original autopsy admitted to changing the manner of death at the insistence of the police. A new technology called photogrammetry unavailable at the time of Ellen's death also created a 3D recreation of Ellen's wounds, demonstrating that not all 20 wounds could have possibly been self-inflicted.

• 36:36Annie Elise?

  And the circumstances and the details about Ellen's death were about to get a lot more mysterious.

• 36:43Speaker 02

  If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. Hi, I'm Sean Evans from Hot Ones and I want to tell you about YouTube Premium. It has offline downloads, so you can watch without Wi-Fi. Background play, so you can lock your phone and it still plays, baby. Oh, and it is completely ad-free. Yes, I said it, ad-free. Try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com/premium. Trial eligibility varies. Terms apply. Cancel anytime.

• 37:12Speaker 01

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• 37:38Speaker 07

  With us again this morning, Sandy and Josh. Welcome again. And their investigator, Tom Brennan, is here as well. Tom, thank you for coming in. I know it's 10 years later, but it doesn't get any easier, does it?

• 37:51Speaker 04

  No, it doesn't.

• 37:52Speaker 07

  The pain ever go away?

• 37:54Speaker 04

  No.

• 37:55Speaker 07

  No. So I've listened to this podcast about three times. They want us to believe the initial police Police officers who showed up there. That your daughter stabbed herself twenty times.

• 38:14Speaker 04

  It's ridiculous.

• 38:15Speaker 07

  Ridiculous. Josh, seriously. How could they have come to that decision? In that apartment in Manayunk. They walk in, she's been stabbed twenty times, and they call it a suicide?

• 38:29Speaker 02

  This is no way. It's, it's, it's, as my wife said, it's ridiculous. It's absurd. And our journey through this to today, over the decade or ten years we've been involved in this, gets more ridiculous every day.

• 38:42Speaker 07

  Yeah, it seems like the case was botched from the opening day. Tom, you've been investigating crimes for years and years. Do you agree with that?

• 38:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  If you look at the timeline from the twenty-sixth of January through the twenty-eighth of January,

• 39:05Speaker 02

  it's, it totally discredits any

• 39:09Speaker 04

  good, basic police work at all.

• 39:11Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 39:11Speaker 04

  What transpired.

• 39:14Speaker 07

  We'll get into how the, the crime scene was completely deep clean too, way too soon. The door was locked, right? Her door was locked from the inside.

• 39:25Speaker 04

  This is all what we've been told. There was never really an investigation to clearly illustrate any of this.

• 39:37Speaker 07

  What does that, what, she lived on, what floor was this on?

• 39:40Speaker 04

  Sixth floor.

• 39:40Speaker 07

  So sixth floor. So this was the only way in or out of her apartment. Well, you can go out on the balcony, but you're not going to climb down or climb up.

• 39:47Speaker 02

  Right, and there was, there was a snowstorm that day. That's why she was home at one o'clock. And that was the only way in or out.

• 39:55Speaker 07

  You were up in Harrisburg at the time?

• 39:57Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 39:57Speaker 07

  So I remember that huge snowstorm, my gosh. It was January. Of 2011. Um, so you weren't able to come down right away?

• 40:06Speaker 02

  No, we couldn't come.

• 40:07Speaker 04

  We didn't get word of any of this until late into the evening. There were mounds of snow, snowplows hadn't come through.

• 40:15Speaker 07

  Who called you?

• 40:17Speaker 04

  The fiance's father. And I didn't know what he meant. I said, you know, where's the ambulance?

• 40:27Speaker 04

  And then he said, there is none.

• 40:29Speaker 07

  Because we won't need one? And then you knew?

• 40:32Speaker 04

  No, I didn't really.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  It was shock. This is not what you expect to get a call from, you have a 27-year-old daughter who's engaged to be married and living in Philadelphia with her fiance.

• 40:46Speaker 07

  Had they been arguing?

• 40:47Speaker 02

  Not to our knowledge.

• 40:49Speaker 07

  And she had been to see a psychiatrist because she was having some troubles. She was having trouble at school.

• 40:54Speaker 02

  No, she had anxiety.

• 40:56Speaker 07

  Anxiety? Where was the anxiety coming from, do you know?

• 41:00Speaker 02

  We can, I'm gonna postulate, I can guess. There were various injuries on her body that were indicative of bruises and healing.

• 41:09Speaker 07

  Okay, let's go back to it. So there are bruises all over her body and those bruises were from maybe days, weeks before she was attacked.

• 41:20Speaker 02

  They weren't part of that night.

• 41:21Speaker 07

  Were not part of that night. So now you've gotta, you gotta figure out what that is all about.

• 41:27Speaker 02

  We are babes in the woods. We had no knowledge.

• 41:32Speaker 02

  If you know anything about this type of problem, it's very unlikely that the victim is gonna say anything to you.

• 41:40Speaker 02

  And we think she was a victim. That's part of what was going on here.

• 41:43Speaker 07

  Now, why in the world was the fiance's uncle allowed to go into her apartment and take Ellie's stuff? Her computer and stuff like that? After the apartment was deep. cleaned. So now it's, there's no longer a crime scene. You can't get any material This was done by a prominent attorney uncle, okay? And he's currently supposedly a judge on the state Attorney's Disciplinary Board. Now, this individual removed Ellie's cellphone, the fiance's laptop, Ellie's work laptop, and Ellie's personal laptop.

• 42:26Speaker 07

  So, right then and there, that negates that chain of evidence, okay? That adversely impacts the chain of evidence on those, on those devices. So that, anything that's, anything that's discovered on those devices can be challenged in court. Okay, any expert that you've hired since then, everybody that looks at this case says that Ellie was murdered.

• 42:53Speaker 02

  Yes, it was a homicide.

• 42:54Speaker 07

  It was a homicide, except for that initial report that day that said it was a suicide. But then it went back to, it went to a homicide, then back to a suicide.

• 43:02Speaker 02

  Uh, I think it went from homicide to suicide to homicide.

• 43:07Speaker 07

  Really?

• 43:09Speaker 07

  Yes, the officers- What do we do now? I mean, obviously, it needs to be re-investigated. So we asked the Attorney General, "Is there anything you can do?" yesterday. And he wrote back in a statement, "We've looked at all..." "No, we're not going to reopen this case as of now. He needs more evidence," he says. What is hard, and it goes into how it's heartbreaking and all that. But he says, "They don't have legitimate new evidence to bring forward." "It has not been brought forward yet, so we're not going to do anything." So what can we do? I know you have a petition. Maybe if we all put enough pressure through this petition, we can get it reopened.

• 43:47Speaker 02

  Well, there are two things happening. Number one, there's a petition on change.org which has over 110,000 signatures that we had nothing to do with. We don't, uh, listen to that, whatever. Number two, we are going to go-

• 44:04Speaker 07

  And the purpose of our trial is to get the suicide changed to either undecided or homicide, which we prefer, and have the case reopened and investigated.

• 44:15Speaker 02

  Now, that'd be a non-jury trial.

• 44:17Speaker 07

  It happens to be a bench trial, yes.

• 44:19Speaker 02

  Okay, a bench trial.

• 44:20Speaker 07

  The Philadelphia situation with trials right now is very overloaded.

• 44:25Speaker 02

  You're not giving up?

• 44:26Speaker 07

  No.

• 44:27Speaker 02

  Why is it so important to get that, get at least the determination changed from suicide?

• 44:33Speaker 07

  She was our daughter.

• 44:34Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 44:35Speaker 07

  I mean, what would you do?

• 44:36Speaker 02

  I would do the same thing you're doing.

• 44:38Speaker 04

  The longer this goes on, the more we uncover, the more we discover. Just because you work for a government agency doesn't give you license to say whatever you want without facts and proving the facts.

• 44:57Speaker 02

  Do you think the key, the linchpin here is what happened when they went into her apartment and took all of her stuff out?

• 45:04Speaker 07

  We, we don't know the why or the who, so don't ask what's the why.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  It should have been you two in her apartment taking her stuff.

• 45:11Speaker 07

  Well, theoretically, if he took-

• 45:13Speaker 04

  No one had permission to touch her things.

• 45:15Speaker 07

  Theoretically, he should have returned it to us the next day at her funeral, which he did not do. This statement by the Attorney General's office is vile.

• 45:29Speaker 02

  Why do you say it's vile?

• 45:31Speaker 07

  It's a lie.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  Can you put it up again?

• 45:33Speaker 07

  It's a lie.

• 45:34Annie Elise?

  In 2020, under growing public pressure and new evidence brought forward by Ellen's family and independent experts, the case was reopened for further investigation. The decision came despite receiving a deposition from a medical expert who noted that many of the nearly 20 stab wounds showed no signs of hemorrhage. This suggested that Ellen was not even alive when those wounds were inflicted and that these wounds were inflicted post-mortem, which, for you true crime sleuths, you know that if they're post-mortem, that means that they were done after Ellen was dead and that Ellen could not have done them. Plus, there were several other details that they believe indicated this was a homicide. If Ellen had planned on killing- Why had she filled up her gas tank after leaving school?

• 46:18Annie Elise?

  She certainly wouldn't need a full tank of gas for any reason. Why had she not left a note? Why was that half-finished fruit salad she made after getting home from school found on the kitchen counter above her body? And moreover, if she was intent on taking her life, why had she chosen to stab herself? And why had she done so through her clothing, something that one expert noted as very rare in cases of suicide by stabbing? That in the rare occurrence that somebody is going to take their own life and choose stabbing as the method, that very rarely are they clothed, and that they usually do it when they are nude to ensure that it fully penetrates and that it is a fast process. Also, how would she inflict those wounds to her back, her head, and her neck?

• 47:00Annie Elise?

  How would she have the physical strength to inflict all 20 of these wounds too and continue to inflict them even after the stab wounds that went to her head and her brain? Which certainly would have debilitated her, right? And taking a step back, and this is just my opinion, but thinking through that, if you're stabbing yourself 20 times in the torso, the back, the head, certainly one of those is going to either strike a nerve, be so painful to where you can't continue with this frenzied attack on yourself. And they have reports suggesting that she wouldn't have been able to inflict all of these. Not to mention the report which said that these even happened post-mortem. Not to mention the location of the wounds. 10 to the back of her neck, one in the scalp, eight times in the chest and the abdomen.

• 47:42Annie Elise?

  Now, I will say, some people out there who believe that this was in fact a suicide say, you know, "Stop with all the conspiracy theories. The multiple knife wounds are consistent with a suicidal person who is, you know, testing their ability to go through with it." There's also no forensic evidence that ties Sam or anybody else to Ellen's death. There's no blood scene on Sam, there's no bloody clothing. It would be very difficult for Sam to murder Ellen, stage the scene, possibly move her body, clean everything up, and not leave any sort of evidence or DNA behind. All in a window of 30 minutes to an hour like we were talking about. Also, in a lot of the cases that we cover, when there is a stabbing involved, we know that especially if it's a mass stabbing, there is a lot of blood, and that typically the perpetrator's hand will slip on the blood and they will sometimes cut themselves,

• 48:27Annie Elise?

  whether it's on the hands, on their legs, whatever it is when they're going through that up and down motion. But there were reportedly no cuts on Sam's hands. However, if you're like me, and like a lot of other true crime people out there, there's probably still some suspicion that the fiance-

• 48:41Speaker 07

  They might have been involved. Something might still be creeping around in the back of your mind. We know that they were engaged and her psychiatrist and her parents said that they had no reason to suspect that she was unhappy or that there was any sort of domestic violence in the relationship. Yet, according to Ellen's father, she had told her parents about a month earlier that she wanted to move home. So, could there have been trouble in paradise?

• 49:03Speaker 05

  The only issue that she was having is she was complaining that she had an, she was overwhelmed by the workload. But that was bullshit. That was the excuse. Ellen wants to come home, and we don't know why. And she said that was the reason. But when Ellen passed, the teacher that took over her position said everything was in perfect order with Ellen's teaching and everything, and great, everything. So, there was no problem with her responsibilities to her job. Something else was happening.

• 49:38Speaker 07

  And think back to those text messages that Sam had sent Ellen when she wasn't opening the door that night, after he returned from the gym. It showed a slew of text messages that appeared angry. He had said, "Hello? Open the door. What are you doing? I'm getting pissed. Hello? You better have an excuse. What the fuck? Ah, you have no idea." Domestic violence author, advocate, and expert Barry Goldstein says that the text message, "You better have an excuse," raises an especially concerning red flag. He says, quote, "What I'm getting from their conversation is he makes the rules, and if she doesn't obey the rules, he will punish her," end quote. He also says, "That's the tone that I'm getting,

• 50:23Speaker 07

  and that's really the essence, of course, of control." Ellen's father told the hosts of a true crime podcast that they do know that she was abused before the attack. Further, that she had been ongoingly being abused but did not know how to tell them, didn't know how to confide in her family or friends about what was going on. They also said that she didn't know how to ask the right questions to find out if she was a victim of domestic violence. And that takes us back to those bruises that were found on her body, the 11 bruises. That were all in various stages of healing. In many domestic violence cases, we often see that abuse will escalate from emotional to verbal to physical to deadly.

• 51:02Speaker 07

  Another interesting detail is on January 23rd, three days before Ellen's death, her family and friends received Save the Date cards for her wedding. I understand things can happen on a whim and somebody may be manically depressed or suffer from anxiety and even if they sent those out, that something may change, but three days before, they received those Save the Date cards. So I think that's also a detail just worth mentioning. Now, I'm gonna go into a couple of the theories out there because as I'm sure you can imagine, this case began to attract media attention all over with true crime sleuths, the legal experts, everybody questioning the original investigation. Could it be that Ellen was the victim of foul play and her death was covered up as a suicide?

• 51:46Speaker 07

  Or was there something even more sinister at work here? But please, keep in mind, these are all theories and nothing has been proven. So if she was thinking of taking her own life, would she have sent out those Save the Date cards? That's question number one. Her dad also said that she expressed wanting to move home and we know that she recently had started suffering from anxiety along with those mysterious 11 bruises. Could it be that Ellen had a discussion with Sam inside their apartment that afternoon? Maybe informing him that she was leaving and perhaps that she wanted to call off the wedding? Could this have angered him? Could the reason that Ellen had no defensive wounds be because she was blitz attacked? And could the reason that she had wounds that appeared to have happened post-mortem be because this was in fact, an overkill murder?

• 52:31Speaker 07

  20 stab wounds and the killer kept going after she was already dead? Something that would have been physically impossible for her to do herself, according to the many experts? Could Sam have done this and then left for the gym for 45 minutes to create some sort of alibi or a timeline of sorts to cover his tracks? The last activity on Ellen's computer was four minutes before Sam arrived at the gym in their building. Was it Ellen using the computer? Or could it have been Sam trying

• 52:58Annie Elise?

  To access her computer to perhaps log a note, write a note of some sort, maybe a suicide note? Or is it possible that when Ellen locked the door from the inside, it was because she was packing, or maybe even going through their computer, or doing something else that might anger Sam, sparking him to send this string of overly aggressive text messages until he finally broke down the door? When he entered, did he see her going through something, or maybe doing something that angered him, and then he blitz-attacked her? That would also explain the lock being broken, and those angry messages. Sam has never spoken publicly about his fiance's death, and he also has not responded to previous inquiries for interviews from the media. As of now, the official cause of Ellen's death remains a suicide, but the questions

• 53:43Annie Elise?

  surrounding her case continue to haunt those who have studied it. And there's a whole other element to this case that I want to talk with you guys about. Her parents never got her journal back. Which, I have to ask, if it's a suicide, and it's not a murder investigation, why wouldn't they receive it back? The case also saw a jurisdictional shift. Initially, it was handled by the Philadelphia Police Department and the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office. But the Greenberg family fought to move the case to the Pennsylvania Attorney General's Office, arguing that the local authorities had a conflict of interest and had mishandled the investigation. In 2022, the Pennsylvania Attorney General's Office, which was led by then Attorney General Josh Shapiro, declined to take over the case, citing a lack of sufficient evidence to overturn

• 54:27Annie Elise?

  the suicide ruling. This decision was met with a lot of frustration from the Greenberg family, who continued to push for an independent investigation. Now, a controversial aspect of the case involves potential political connections that some people believe may have influenced how this case was handled, and why the then Attorney General Josh Shapiro declined to take over this case. First, Sam Goldberg's family connections. Sam Goldberg, Ellen's fiance, is reportedly related to very influential figures in Philadelphia's legal and political circles. This has led to concerns that these connections might have affected the investigation into Ellen's death. Some people also think that the Attorney General Josh's decision to not reopen the

• 55:10Annie Elise?

  case despite the new evidence that was presented by Ellen's family might have more reason behind it. Some people speculate that his decision might have been influenced by his ties to Sam's family, though there's no direct evidence to prove that, I want to be clear. Remember his cousin's father, who is a lawyer and called him five minutes before Sam called 911? There's apparently a connection there. Apparently Attorney General Josh Shapiro and Sam's uncle, James, their kids all go to school together. There's even photos of all of them together. So many are raising the question and saying it's interesting that at 6:14, Sam calls his cousin, who's a lawyer. A few minutes after that phone call,

• 55:54Annie Elise?

  his cousin's dad, who's a lawyer, calls Sam back. They talk, then the 911 call is made. Then, a friend of the lawyer family, and arguably a friend of the fiance Sam by extension, is the Attorney General, who they're begging to reopen the case, to reclassify it. He refuses, saying there's a lack of evidence, but he's friends with the fiance's family. Certainly that is a conflict of interest, right? Also, get this. That Uncle James, the lawyer, was allowed into the crime scene to get Sam's suit. But then, he apparently left with Ellen's computers, wallet, phone, handbag, and other items.

• 56:33Speaker 04

  In 2018, one of their attorneys became the DA in Philadelphia, so, to avoid a conflict of interest. He sent the case to the state attorney, a state Attorney General, in fact, who at the time was this guy. If he looks familiar, he should. It's Josh Shapiro. The same Josh Shapiro who is now Pennsylvania's governor. And Governor Shapiro, back then, he too signed off on that suicide finding. Suicide! He signed off on it, Governor! But then came allegations, never proven, that Josh Shapiro, now Governor, also had a conflict,

• 57:15Speaker 04

  a relationship with the family of that fiance, Sam Goldberg.

• 57:21Speaker 04

  Yesterday, our Brian Enton sat down with Ellen Greenberg's parents, Josh and Sandy Greenberg. And here's what they said about the winding path that this case has taken, and about Josh Shapiro in particular.

• 57:36Speaker 07

  Did it bother you that Shapiro never... It doesn't seem like he took a personal interest in your case. Yeah, but we have no power. I still don't have power over him. But I wonder why he didn't. I don't... why we didn't? No, why he didn't. Beats me. I think... okay, I'll answer that. I think he tried to keep his hands off as much as possible. Because I think, deep down, he knew this was a hot potato. He might have known other things that we didn't know also. Like why this is happening, that we don't know. Well, we emailed his office and haven't heard anything. You're not gonna hear anything.

• 58:12Speaker 04

  But good.

• 58:14Speaker 07

  Good.

• 58:14Speaker 04

  Ask away.

• 58:15Speaker 07

  It just seems like, for a politician, that would be something you could be proud of, helping a case get solved, finding the truth. He didn't. He went the same... well, I'm gonna call the party line. This is a suicide. That was the party line.

• 58:32Speaker 04

  Every piece of this story is... I look at it in disbelief. I keep looking for alternative theories, for explanations. I try, I really do try, to come up with some reasonable explanation as to how the police botched this so badly, and how others after that seem to be just fine signing off on what seems comical. But Brian, I don't understand... What were Ellen Greenberg's parents? Like, what was the response they had when you talked to them about the fact that Sam Goldberg's judge uncle and lawyer cousin were able to get into that apartment and leave with her laptop and her cellphone?

• 59:17Speaker 04

  I mean, they're shocked now when they think about it. Ashley, at the time, you can imagine their daughter was dead. They were still trying to understand what happened. It didn't sit right with them that it was being called a suicide. They were grieving. So they were trying to process all of it. They thought it was a lockdown crime scene. They didn't know that people could just go in there. This is what they said about it.

• 59:41Speaker 04

  Upsetting thing to me is

• 59:46Speaker 04

  the unauthorized uncle came to the building, got permission to get a suit for Sam with his son. And they came for the suit, but somehow they left with Ellen's two computers, Ellen's wallet, car keys, handbag.

• 1:00:11Speaker 07

  Cell phone.

• 1:00:12Speaker 04

  Cell phone, you know, critical electronics that they had no business taking. They never had permission.

• 1:00:21Speaker 07

  I'm suspicious of that.

• 1:00:24Speaker 04

  So the police didn't immediately take those things? No, they waited till Saturday.

• 1:00:29Speaker 07

  Three or four days.

• 1:00:31Speaker 04

  Why?

• 1:00:32Speaker 07

  We don't know.

• 1:00:33Speaker 04

  That's a good question. Ask the Philadelphia Police Department.

• 1:00:36Speaker 07

  We never had any phone calls ever telling us what was going on.

• 1:00:43Annie Elise?

  I also want to mention another bizarre story about her spine sample. Because the coroner apparently walked a few blocks through the snow with the sample in a jar so that they could show it to the neuropathologist. And this coroner said in that civil suit deposition that he would not have changed his ruling from homicide to suicide if he had known that the fiance Sam broke down the door himself. However, at the time, the police had told him that the doorman was involved in this. And I find that very interesting because there were a lot of conflicting reports on this. Remember how Sam said he went down to the doorman trying to get him to come up to help him get into the apartment, but the doorman refused? Well, apparently, there's reports out there where they said that the doorman was with him,

• 1:01:26Annie Elise?

  almost like he could verify that it was locked, he could vouch for him. But now the coroner said in that deposition, "Had I known that the doorman wasn't with him and that Sam broke the door down himself, I definitely would not have changed the ruling from homicide to suicide." So in short, some people believe that these political connections might have played a role in the case not being thoroughly investigated. However, this all remains.

• 1:01:50Speaker 04

  a matter of speculation. In July of this year, the state Supreme Court agreed to hear the family's appeal regarding the death certificate and the wrongful death and the ruling. So we will see what comes from that and if there is any movement. Tonight, we're learning a legal back and forth over the death investigation of Ellen Greenberg will now go to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court. The 28-year-old teacher was found dead inside her mannequin apartment with 20 stab wounds in 2011. Her death was ruled a suicide, but her parents believe she was murdered. Her family is hoping the state's highest court will help bring answers and shed light on how and why she died.

• 1:02:27Speaker 02

  It's been a long haul. Let's start with that. We're very appreciative. We don't know how to express our gratitude for this.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  Ellen Greenberg's parents have been fighting to have her death ruled a homicide or undecided. Her body was found with 20 stab wounds more than 13 years ago. The Philadelphia Medical Examiner has ruled her death a suicide.

• 1:02:49Speaker 02

  Over 20 stab wounds, 10 in the back, 10 in the front that she had. And it was homicide, no doubt about it.

• 1:02:56Speaker 01

  Last September, a lower court wrote, "While this court is acutely aware of the deeply flawed investigation of the victim's death by the City of Philadelphia Police Department detectives, the City of Philadelphia District Attorney's Office, and the Medical Examiner's Office, we have no choice under the law but to reverse and remand to the trial court for the entry of judgment in favor of the Medical Examiner's Office."

• 1:03:17Speaker 02

  It's just a journey that's continuously uphill. And every step forward, they, excuse me, trip us, so we go back two steps. There's been no cooperation, no information, no conferences or, you know, communication or anything with the authorities. It's always, she committed suicide, we can prove it, and they can't prove it. And I can prove they can't prove it.

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  Greenberg's family filed an appeal that has now made its way to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court. The family hoping the court will now open up a path to further investigate how the 27-year-old teacher died.

• 1:03:55Speaker 02

  I would like to have an unbiased investigation led by an unbiased team with an unbiased leader.

• 1:04:03Speaker 06

  And I would like to, so I can get the truth.

• 1:04:04Annie Elise?

  A family's long search for answers, taking one step forward. The Greenbergs have filed multiple lawsuits pushing the case to be reopened and investigated as a homicide. Their determination has kept the case in the public eye, ensuring that Ellen's story is not forgotten. However, the mystery continues. Because who, if anyone, was responsible for Ellen's death? Was it a botched investigation? Was it something far more nefarious and sinister? And most chillingly, I mean, could a killer still be out there, having successfully evaded justice and never got caught?

• 1:04:37Speaker 05

  Like, hindsight is 2020, when we hired experts and we read the autopsy, and you find out the amount of bruising in various stages of healing, the contusions, the dried wackulated blood that went from her nose to her ear, which meant she had all been moved. And the amount of abuse that her body-

• 1:05:01Speaker 06

  There's a murderer and an abuse or Philadelphia somewhere, Spain. We failed, we accomplished something after 13 or 14 years. No one has ever gotten as far as we have with a case like this, fighting the criminal justice system, the medical examiner, and all the other things involved in this case.

• 1:05:22Speaker 05

  It's painful for us. I mean, it was a crushing blow to lose her.

• 1:05:27Speaker 06

  But what we're doing is we're doing for Ellen.

• 1:05:30Annie Elise?

  Homicide detectives hate to admit it, but there is a way to get away with murder: make it look like a suicide. And what's worse is it's almost impossible for victims' families to legally challenge a manner of death ruling by a medical examiner or a coroner.

• 1:05:45Speaker 05

  Three ex-boyfriends came to pay their respects at the funeral, which I think was pretty amazing, considering, you know, she had moved on with her life. A lot of her friends didn't know each other necessarily before Ellen passed, but as a result of her passing, she brought a lot of people together.

• 1:06:09Annie Elise?

  Do you think that Ellen took her own life? Or do you think that she was murdered? Thank you guys so much for tuning into another episode and for hearing Ellen's story. Let's continue to hope that she does get the justice she deserves and that the truth comes to light, but I am curious to know what you guys think. Now, really quickly before you go, this is actually one of two cases that dropped in today's feed. So there is a all new deep dive also in the feed. If you've missed it, you can just exit out of this episode. You'll see it right there. We are diving into everything that we have learned about the singer David and Celeste Hernandez. And for those of you who are unfamiliar with that case, she is the teen girl whose body was found decomposed inside his Tesla trunk.

• 1:06:53Annie Elise?

  And there is a lot of information. We have uncovered all sorts of things, so I am breaking down, you know, item by item, bombshell by bombshell, and we're going over all of it. So again, that episode is already in the feed. We dropped two episodes today, so go and check that one out. Also, just another reminder about those tour tickets. Get them at AnnieElise.com on the events page and come hear one of these episodes live with me in person. I'll be back on the mic with you Thursday for this week's headline highlights and then, of course, next Monday with an all new episode, a deep dive into a case. Guys, I don't know. We have just got so much to talk about this week, so I will be back with you very soon, but I want to know what you think about this case. All right, guys, thanks again, and until the next one, please stay safe. Bye.

• 1:08:21Speaker 02

  Hi, it's me, YourGutters. I want to start by saying I'm fine. Everything is totally fine. There's just, there's a lot of debris up here and I've been managing it mostly on my own for about eight months now. And I just thought maybe you could find someone on Annie to clean me up. You don't have to make it a whole thing. It doesn't need to be a whole thing. I just, I could really use your help.

• 1:08:45Speaker 00

  YourGutters have waited long enough. Find a pro at Angie.com.