SERIAL KILLER: Sante Kimes Pt. 2

What happens when loyalty becomes a weapon? In Part 2, Killer Minds reveals how Sante Kimes pulled her son Kenny into an escalating series of crimes—culminating in cold-blooded murder. From the killing of a banker in the Bahamas to the brutal death of New York socialite Irene Silverman, this episode examines the twisted bond that kept Kenny obedient and the psychological grip Sante never loosened. As investigators closed in, their meticulously planned schemes finally unraveled, exposing one of the most disturbing mother-son crime partnerships in modern history. If you’re new here, don’t forget to follow Serial Killers & Murderous Minds to never miss a case! For Ad-free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to Crime House+ on Apple Podcasts. Serial Killers & Murderous Minds is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios 🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to other Crime House Originals Clues, Crimes Of…, Murder True Crime Stories, Crime House 24/7, and more wherever you get your podcasts! Follow me on Social Instagram: @Crimehouse https://www.instagram.com/crimehouse/ TikTok: @Crimehouse https://www.tiktok.com/@crimehouse Facebook: @crimehousestudios https://www.facebook.com/crimehousestudios YouTube: @crimehousestudios https://www.youtube.com/@crimehousestudios

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Hi, everyone. Before today's episode, there's another show I want to tell you about. It's called What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Plus, Connor's infectious energy that'll make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on earth. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  This is Crime House.

• 0:42Vanessa Richardson?

  Blind faith plays an important role in life. Whether it's support from our friends, partners, or our parents, we often turn to others to steer us in the right direction. Shante Kimes expected her son Kenny to trust her implicitly, but she didn't develop that trust in a healthy way. Eventually, Kenny had nothing and no one in his life except his mother. And when Kenny took a leap of blind faith in Shante, there was no turning back.

• 1:28Vanessa Richardson?

  The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is Serial Killers and Murderous Minds, a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.

• 1:43Tristin Engels?

  And I'm Dr. Tristin Engels. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer.

• 1:51Vanessa Richardson?

  Crime House is made possible by you. Follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds and subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts for ad-free early access to each two-part series. Before we begin, please be advised that this episode contains descriptions of gun violence and murder. Listener discretion. is advised. Today, we conclude our deep dive on Shontae Kimes, a con artist, fraudster, and killer, who used elaborate tricks to get what she wanted. Following years of fraud and cruelty, Shontae and her son Kenny carried out a string of crimes across the United States in the 1990s. But after a lifetime of lies,

• 2:32Vanessa Richardson?

  much of the truth about Shontae remains buried to this day.

• 2:37Tristin Engels?

  While Vanessa guides you through the story, I'll be discussing things like the deep and bizarre attachments criminals sometimes form, how the power dynamics play out between those criminals, especially when they're parent and child, and why that child may go to unfathomable lengths to save the very person who destroyed their life.

• 2:55Vanessa Richardson?

  And as always, we'll be asking the question, what makes a killer?

• 3:04Speaker 03

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• 3:34Speaker 04

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• 4:17Speaker 04

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• 4:36Vanessa Richardson?

  In September 1996, 62-year-old Shante Kimes and her son, 21-year-old Kenny Kimes, allegedly murdered a banker in the Bahamas and dumped his body in the ocean. The man, Syed Bilal Ahmed, had tried to stop them from fraudulently accessing funds in Shante's late-husband Kenneth's offshore account. After Syed was dead, Shante and Kenny escaped to Miami, Florida. Police investigated Syed's disappearance, but never found him. Following his death, Shante kept trying to get the money from the account, but it was out of reach. They were still living off of some of Kenneth's other wealth that Shante had hidden from

• 5:18Vanessa Richardson?

  the rest of his family, but even though they had plenty of money, Shante still turned to shoplifting as one of her favorite pastimes.

• 5:25Tristin Engels?

  Or it could be her impulse-control issues were more difficult for her to manage. People with her personality structure often steal not because they need the item, but because the act itself gives them a sense of power, excitement, or relief. And right now, it would make sense why she would turn to that.

• 5:42Vanessa Richardson?

  In May of 1997, she and Kenny strolled through a discount store in downtown Miami, where Shante tried to steal multiple tubes of lipstick. An undercover police officer noticed what she was doing and tried to stop her, and Shante started swinging punches at him. Then she ran away. The officer grabbed Kenny before he could escape too, and he was brought in for questioning. When officers ran his name through their system, they didn't get any hits for him, but they did realize that the woman he'd been with at the store was his mother, Shante Kimes, who had a long record. Kenny was eventually released, but a judge issued a warrant for Shante's arrest on a charge of strong-arm robbery.

• 6:27Vanessa Richardson?

  Once again, Shontay and Kenny left town to escape the investigation. This time, they went back to the west coast, where they used Kenneth's remaining money to live lavishly. They rented out an LA mansion under the aliases Sandy and Manny Garin, paying $8,000 cash upfront for six months. Then, they bought a brand-new Lincoln Town Car from Kenneth's former car dealer, who was based in Utah, again hiding the fact that Kenneth had been dead for four years. Shontay paid for the car with a bad check and registered it under a false name. From there, Shontay hired a new group of household workers, this time pulling from classified ads and homeless shelters. But she didn't just hire maids.

• 7:12Vanessa Richardson?

  Shontay compiled a team of accomplices. A former pizza-delivery driver named Stan Patterson started running errands for her and also acquired firearms for her and Kenny. Shontay also hired unwitting accomplices, such as an unhoused man named Robert McCarron, who became Shontay and Kenneth's driver. Stan, Robert, and the other employees noticed something about Shontay and Kenny right away. The mother and son were close, too close. They were extremely affectionate and even slept in the same room. Sometimes, people who didn't know them mistook them for a couple.

• 7:49Tristin Engels?

  In episode one, I talked about psychological enmeshment and what it is, what it looks like, and how it develops. So as a quick recap, enmeshment happens in relationships, mostly families, when boundaries are blurred or nonexistent and people's identities, emotions, and needs become so intertwined that it blocks autonomy. So we already outlined how this dynamic formed between Shontay and Kenny and how deeply it affected his ability to function independently. But what we're seeing here is alarming, and most people would be justified in their concern. From the outside, it's understandable why someone might worry about an inappropriate, possibly even incestuous, relationship. But in reality, this level of closeness is actually not uncommon in profoundly enmeshed parent-child relationships.

• 8:34Tristin Engels?

  It is most certainly a breakdown of boundaries, but not necessarily a sexual relationship. Shontay has always relied on a partner for validation and emotional stability. Kenneth has been dead for four years and during that time she's had no romantic partner to latch on to, likely because she's had to maintain the appearance that he's still alive. Historically, when she lacked a partner, she immediately chased a new one. But now she's older, she's under intense scrutiny, and she's fleeing multiple criminal investigations. Kenny becomes the only consistent person in her orbit, much like she is to him. So she clings to him in the way she's always clung to partners.

• 9:15Tristin Engels?

  And for someone as boundary-blind as Shontay, that affection and closeness can take forms that look wildly inappropriate to outsiders. But the function is the same. It's emotional regulation, validation, and control. She's controlling where Kenny slept, eliminating his privacy, and overwhelming him with affection. All of those were her strategies. They were ways to maintain her grip on him and reinforce the dependency that she'd been engineering since he was a child. This is about possession and psychological fusion. It's not necessarily sexual, but it is profoundly unhealthy.

• 9:50Vanessa Richardson?

  Do you think Shontay's behavior with Kenny ties back to her past with her older brother? Do you think she was possibly continuing that cycle of abuse with her son?

• 9:59Tristin Engels?

  Well, it's definitely possible. When a child's first lessons about closeness come from someone who violates boundaries, it can distort their understanding of what intimacy and connection are supposed to look like. Those early experiences can carry into adulthood, but I do want to dispel the myth that everyone who is abused goes on to abuse others. That's simply not true. However, it is true that many people who do become abusive have their own history of trauma. And that's not because their trauma or their abuse turns them into abusers, but because it disrupts healthy attachment, distorts boundaries, and sometimes normalizes dynamics that should never feel normal, especially when there's no intervention, education, or support.

• 10:42Tristin Engels?

  In Shontay's case, those blurred boundaries from childhood may have made it harder for her to recognize what was appropriate and harder for her to build relationships that weren't rooted in control. So while we can't draw a straight line from her trauma to her behavior, we can say her early experiences could have set the stage for patterns that she did repeat with Kenny in the end.

• 11:05Vanessa Richardson?

  Kenny was clearly willing to do whatever his mother asked of him. And in early 1998, Shontay enlisted Kenny's help in another sinister scheme. Their cash was starting to run low, so Shontay transferred the deed of her Las Vegas house into the name of an acquaintance, David Kazdin, without telling him. Then she forged his identity to take out a large loan against the property. Every dollar went straight into her own account. Finally, the house went up in flames, which investigators later ruled as arson. Weeks later, David Kazdin learned that he owed $280,000 for the incinerated house. David was shocked and started looking into the matter.

• 11:48Vanessa Richardson?

  That's when he learned that an insurance policy on the house had been taken out under the name Robert McCarron, Shontay's new employee. David had dealt with Shontay before and immediately recognized her scheme. He hired a lawyer and a private investigator to get to the bottom of things, then called Shontay and told her he was going to out her. Shontay was furious. No one had ever stood up to her like this before, and she wouldn't stand for it. That's where Kenny came in. On March 13, 1998, he loaded the Lincoln Town Car with heavy-duty plastic bags, duct tape, a pair of black gloves, and a gun. Then he drove to David's house, knocked on the door, and shot him in cold blood.

• 12:32Vanessa Richardson?

  He cleaned up the scene, then stuffed David's body into the trunk of his own car, drove to an area near the Los Angeles International Airport, and left his body in a dumpster. Kenny abandoned David's car before returning to the Lincoln and driving home.

• 12:49Tristin Engels?

  So let's discuss what would allow Kenny to do Shontay's bidding so easily. And before I go into this, I want to emphasize that this is an explanation, not an excuse. I've outlined most of this already, but years of dependency, isolation, and emotional control likely impaired Kenny's ability to see himself as separate from his mother. Her needs became his obligations. Her enemies became his problems to solve. And the more he conformed to her expectations, the more his moral boundaries weakened. That's what happens when your identity is built around pleasing someone who has no boundaries of their own. And that can happen in very severe, enmeshed relationships like this. He had been conditioned to play this role his entire life. And that's deeply sad when you consider

• 13:34Tristin Engels?

  how his development was shaped. But it's also true that he was an adult with a capacity for rational thought. Both things can be true at once. His autonomy was damaged, but not erased. And that's what makes this kind of case so psychologically complex. You can see the harm that shaped him, and you can also see the choices that he ultimately made.

• 13:54Vanessa Richardson?

  How is it that neither of them seem to recognize their own destructive patterns?

• 13:59Tristin Engels?

  Well, for Shontay, recognizing her own destructive patterns would mean acknowledging vulnerability, responsibility, and limits. That is not tolerable for someone with strong narcissistic and antisocial traits. So instead of seeing patterns, they see problems caused by other people, not problems that they're causing to other people. And for Kenny, the issue is different. His lack of recognition is rooted in years of conditioning, like I mentioned. He's insulated in an ecosystem that was built and controlled by Shontay. It's very coercive, almost like he's been indoctrinated. There was no healthy outside relationships or even contrast to help him recognize that what he was doing was harmful or even abnormal. But at the same time, they both knew that they were breaking the law

• 14:44Tristin Engels?

  because they were both going to great lengths to hide their crimes.

• 14:49Vanessa Richardson?

  Once again, Shontay and Kenny's lives were completely uprooted, and it was their own fault. David's body was found the next day, and the LAPD launched a homicide investigation. Pretty soon, they connected with arson investigators in Las Vegas. When the LAPD learned about the suspicious deed transfer, they quickly zeroed in on 64-year-old Shontay and 23-year-old Kenny as their prime suspects. But they couldn't bring the mother-son duo into the station because they'd already skipped town.

• 15:21Vanessa Richardson?

  They packed their bags and drove the Lincoln to Palm Beach, Florida, where they planned their next move. Shontay knew they needed to pull off something big, something that would set them up for life. She'd been eyeing New York City, and she started researching wealthy New Yorkers she could target. Shontay floated around elite social circles in Palm Beach and chatted with people casually about wanting to move to New York. People were eager to name drop their high-profile contacts, and Shontay took note of each one. She even wrote people's names in a notebook. Finally, she narrowed it down to who she believed was the most vulnerable target: 82-year-old Irene Silverman, a former ballerina who owned a townhouse on East 65th Street in Manhattan.

• 16:06Vanessa Richardson?

  Irene rented out rooms in her home, and Shontay thought this would be the perfect way in. She and Kenny could pose as people looking for a place to stay. Next, Shontay checked title records and confirmed that Irene was the sole owner and that the property carried no liens. She also learned that the elegant townhouse was worth a whopping $7 million, and it could all belong to her and Kenny. All they had to do was get close to Irene, forge some paperwork, and then get rid of her.

• 16:39Tristin Engels?

  I think it's clear that Shontay is motivated by greed, but this level of planning in detail really shows how much she needs to feel in control, validated and dominant. She consistently gravitates towards wealth and status and influence as a way to protect herself emotionally and practically. So targeting Irene was her way of reclaiming a sense of superiority after years of instability, legal consequences, and the loss of her husband. And she's specifically targeting somebody that she knows is also vulnerable. Irene is elderly, and she's the sole owner of this townhome, making her a perfect target. Shante's personality structure also thrives on manipulation and thrill. When she's not planning something, she's stealing something.

• 17:23Tristin Engels?

  She needs to feel mastery, entitlement, or both. And of course, her relationship with Kenny plays a role in this. Keeping him dependent ensures that he won't question her, which means her plans, her worldview, and their relationship all remain intact.

• 17:39Vanessa Richardson?

  Has Shante learned from her past mistakes as a criminal? I don't mean morally, because obviously she has not learned anything morally. But as far as the high level of planning for this next chapter, is this another form of thrill-seeking for her?

• 17:51Tristin Engels?

  It doesn't look like Shante learned from her past mistakes at all, morally or otherwise, because if anything, her crimes become more elaborate. All of this planning and detail is part of the thrill for someone like her, for all the reasons I outlined. But also, the risk reinforces her belief that she's smarter than everyone else. So this isn't growth or insight. This is actually escalation.

• 18:14Vanessa Richardson?

  Shante was not only prepared, she was able to act totally natural when she carried out step one of her plan. In May 1998, Shante phoned Irene Silverman and introduced herself with a fake name. She casually name-dropped a supposed mutual acquaintance to build trust, then explained that her son, Manny Garin, needed a short-term apartment in New York. Step one was a success. Irene agreed to rent out Apartment 1B, and they scheduled a move-in date for June 15. Shante and Kenny packed their bags and headed for the townhouse on East 65th Street in Manhattan, where less than one month later, they'd unleash hell.

• 19:02Speaker 05

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• 19:34Speaker 06

  Did you know the most feared pirate in the Atlantic, the man who terrorized an entire ocean for years, may never have actually killed anyone? Or that the real golden age of pirates was the most democratic workplace in the Western world? I'm Connor Tomlinson from Love on the Spectrum, and history is my thing.

• 19:52Speaker 07

  And I'm Carter Roy, and this is What the Fact. Every week, we take the most unbelievable true things in history and tell you the whole story behind them.

• 20:01Speaker 06

  Carter sets the scene.

• 20:02Speaker 07

  Connor brings the facts, the deep cuts, and the genuine belief that this is the most interesting subject in the world.

• 20:08Speaker 06

  It is. This is the history lesson you actually wished you had in high school.

• 20:13Speaker 07

  New episodes every Wednesday. Follow What the Fact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 20:26Vanessa Richardson?

  By the beginning of June 1998, 64-year-old Shante Kimes and 23-year-old Kenny Kimes were headed to New York City to close in on their next mark, 82-year-old Irene Silverman, who had agreed to rent an apartment to Kenny, who she believed was named Manny Garin, in her townhouse on East 65th Street in Manhattan. They arrived on June 14th, and Irene welcomed them inside the six-story home. Irene lived on the top two floors, but her office was located on the first floor. As soon as they stepped inside, Kenny played the part of a polite young man from Palm Beach. He handed over $6,000 in cash. Then Irene wrote and signed a receipt, which she gave to him.

• 21:11Vanessa Richardson?

  At the same time, though, Irene felt a little suspicious of him. Even though he was polite, something just seemed off. Irene only became more skeptical over the next few days when she noticed a strange woman going in and out of her new tenant's apartment. Of course, Shante had snuck into Apartment 1B. Kenny told anyone who asked that she was his secretary. And what Irene didn't realize was that while she was keeping an eye on them, they were watching her, too. Irene's office was in Apartment 1A, right across from the unit Kenny and Shante were staying in. They watched her closely and learned her routine. One day, when Irene was out and none of her employees were around, they attached a listening device to her phone line.

• 21:56Vanessa Richardson?

  Then, they started eavesdropping on Irene's calls so they could learn enough about her to feign her identity. Shante kept track of their progress in a notebook. Each day, she jotted down reminders and items on a to-do list, like "get signature," "get checks," "get keys," and "get social security number." That last one would be the hardest. In an attempt to figure it out, Shante called Irene one day, pretending to be a sweepstakes employee, and claimed Irene had won a free trip. But Irene wasn't easily fooled and hung up.

• 22:31Vanessa Richardson?

  However, Shante was able to cross Irene's signature off the list since Irene had signed the receipt she gave to Kenny. She used it as an example to forge Irene's signature on a deed of sale that would pass ownership of the house to a shell company that Shante operated. Shante knew the document alone wouldn't be good enough. If she wanted it to pass, she'd need to get it notarized. If she wanted to do that, she'd have to pass as Irene. So, she made an appointment for a notary to come by the apartment on July 1st. Then, she bought a red wig that looked like Irene's hair. On the day of the appointment, while wearing the wig, Shante climbed into bed, tucked herself into the blankets so she was barely visible,

• 23:15Vanessa Richardson?

  and pretended to be sick. She thought this would be enough to pass herself off as Irene, but she was wrong. When the notary arrived, they realized right away what was going on and left. However, this still wasn't enough to dissuade Shante and Kenny. Kenny simply contacted another notary, who came the next day, and this time, the ruse worked. She notarized the deed, as well as some other real estate papers that Kenny had pulled out at the last minute.

• 23:45Tristin Engels?

  It's not surprising at all that she'd go through these theatrics to reach her end goal. Shante loves a performance, she loves the thrill, and she carries this entitlement. People with strong antisocial or narcissistic traits often develop something called optimism bias. They overestimate positive outcomes, like they won't get caught, and they underestimate negative outcomes, like how blatantly risky that was. The payoff is too exciting, the goal is too important to them, and the thrill of the manipulation becomes part of the reward. So in that sense, this fits her personality structure perfectly. But what is shocking, and what I think our listeners are probably responding to and will agree to this, because I'm sure they're sitting there with their jaws to the floor

• 24:27Tristin Engels?

  like we are, Vanessa, is how much she's willing to risk just for those thrills and for that end goal. When that first notary sees through the act, Shante doesn't panic or rethink the plan. If she was worried that that specific notary would report what she was doing, which is clearly trying to be, you know, engage in fraud, she clearly didn't show it. Instead, she continued to see opportunity and perhaps even felt more pressure because she just tries again and she does it in a very fast pace. And this is because getting caught isn't a deterrent for her, it's an inconvenience. The theatrics of it all just reinforce her internal belief that she's clever enough,

• 25:08Tristin Engels?

  bold enough, and superior enough to pull off anything that she decides to do.

• 25:14Vanessa Richardson?

  So with the documents notarized, Shante and Kenny were so confident they'd pull their scheme off, they started recruiting people to help run the townhouse after they took it over. They contacted their old acquaintance, Stanley Patterson, who worked for them in LA and got them guns, and asked him to fly to New York to become the manager of the building. What they didn't know was that the authorities had gotten to Stanley first. LA detectives had traced the gun used to kill David Kazdin back to Stanley. They told Stanley he could be charged in connection with Kazdin's murder unless he cooperated. So when Shante called Stanley, he agreed to meet her and Kenny in New York on July 5th.

• 25:57Vanessa Richardson?

  Then Stanley told police and the LAPD, NYPD, and the FBI formed a joint task force. Their plan was to ambush Shante and Kenny during that meeting. However, Shante and Kenny had additional plans of their own.

• 26:14Vanessa Richardson?

  On July 3rd, two days before the scheduled meeting, Kenny confirmed with Irene's housekeeper that only Irene and another employee, Martha Rivera, would be in her office on the 5th. That morning, just before noon, Martha left and went upstairs to her own apartment, leaving Irene alone. When the building was quiet, Kenny and Shontay forced their way into Irene's office. Shontay stunned Irene with a taser and Kenny allegedly choked her until she stopped breathing. Irene Silverman was dead. Kenny then carried her across the hall to his apartment, where he placed her in the bathtub before he and Shontay returned to the office.

• 26:56Vanessa Richardson?

  They gathered Irene's personal documents, financial papers, checkbooks, and $10,000 in cash she had stashed away. Kenny also took Irene's set of keys. After that, they hauled Irene's body into a large, black duffel bag, which Kenny placed in the Lincoln's trunk. When he came back, Shontay was cleaning the apartment with rubbing alcohol. When she finished, they grabbed the rest of their belongings, piled them in the backseat of the car, and drove off.

• 27:25Tristin Engels?

  There was a lot of detailed planning that went into the takeover and ultimate murder of Irene. We call this instrumental violence, a type of harm committed out of calculated intention. And research consistently shows that instrumental violence is far more common in individuals with antisocial traits because it requires emotional detachment, long-term planning, and a willingness to use another person purely as a means to an end. And with Irene, there was months of monitoring her movements, brainstorming, manipulating notaries, and now this. And this is someone acting with confidence, entitlement, and superiority. The methodical nature also shows how completely she had absorbed Kenny into her thinking.

• 28:10Tristin Engels?

  When someone is this enmeshed, the crime becomes a shared mission. She was willing to pull her son deeper into the behavior, reinforcing their bond through secrecy, risk, and shared guilt. That's a hallmark of coercive, controlling relationships. The more extreme the shared act, the stronger the psychological hold. And this was a calculated decision by someone who believed that she was untouchable and who saw planning a murder the way other people plan a home renovation. It's unnerving, and it's also exactly what we expect when entitlement, manipulation, and thrill of control all come together like that.

• 28:45Vanessa Richardson?

  What level of obedience would this require from Kenny? I mean, has Shontay just completely taken control of his mind at this point?

• 28:53Tristin Engels?

  So obedience at this level requires years of conditioning, dependency, and a lack of identity or autonomy. This is unfortunately exactly what Shontay created in Kenny. But I want to be clear, she didn't take control of his mind. It's not like mind control or anything. It's coercive influence layered over developmental vulnerability. Remember, Kenny grew up without autonomy, without stable attachments, and without opportunities to form his own identity. Shontay isolated him. She interfered with any relationships he tried to form, and she taught him that loyalty to her was the only path to safety. And by the time Irene entered the picture, or by the time they got here, his ability to think independently or challenge her was very compromised.

• 29:38Tristin Engels?

  So the obedience required here psychologically, like we covered previously, comes from a place of enmeshment, fear, loyalty, and identity fusion. Kenny wasn't functioning as a separate adult, making separate decisions. And that's what makes this so tragic. His autonomy wasn't erased, but it was so distorted that obeying her felt like the only viable option. And again, this is not an excuse, it's just an explanation of how he got here.

• 30:05Vanessa Richardson?

  Do you think there's anything that could have prevented this for Kenny?

• 30:09Tristin Engels?

  Several things could have interrupted Kenny's path long before he reached this point. And the biggest factor would have been consistent outside influence, like from teachers, mentors, friends, therapists, anyone who could have shown him a different version of relationships and helped him build a sense of self separate from Shontay. Isolation is what made him vulnerable, but connection is what could have protected him. He needed to learn stable boundaries, and he needed space from Shontay, physical, emotional, and psychological space. That would have given him perspective.

• 30:42Vanessa Richardson?

  There was one plan that fell through, however. On the other side of town, federal agents picked up Stanley Patterson at the airport and drove him to the Hilton Hotel in Manhattan. Shontay had told Stanley to meet her there at 11:00 a.m. At 11:30, Shontay called to say she and Kenny were delayed by car trouble, and Stanley said he would wait. Stanley waited for hours before Shontay and Kenny ever arrived. And in the meantime, Irene's employee, Martha Iver, made a frightening discovery. At 4:42 p.m., Martha knocked on her office door, but there was no answer. Martha opened the door and noticed that not only were Irene's things missing, including the $10,000 in cash,

• 31:26Vanessa Richardson?

  but she was nowhere to be found. Martha feared that Irene had been robbed and kidnapped, so she called the police. Officers arrived and searched the entire townhouse, and soon, they discovered something puzzling. When they entered Apartment 1B, they found that the tenant, known as Manny, had vanished as well. All that was left behind was a roll of duct tape, a box of heavy trash bags with four missing, and a shower curtain with no liner. Then, just before 5 o'clock, Shontay stopped at the Plaza Hotel and checked a small, black duffel bag with plans to pick it up later that day. Then she walked over to the Hilton and found Stanley,

• 32:08Vanessa Richardson?

  who was sitting at the bar wearing a large cowboy hat. Shontay said Kenny would be there soon. Over drinks, she went over Stanley's duties as the new manager of the townhouse they were buying. She didn't know that FBI agents hovered in the background. They didn't want to move until Kenny and Shante were both there. Just after 6:30, Shante and Stanley left the Hilton to stroll through a street fair just outside. As they walked, Shante spotted Kenny up ahead. He looked sweaty and exhausted. She hugged him, then Stanley stepped forward to say hello, removing his hat in the process. That was his cue to the agents waiting in the wings. Suddenly, the street was swarming with law enforcement.

• 32:52Vanessa Richardson?

  Several men jumped on Kenny and wrestled him to the ground. He fought back, but it was no use. Shante was handcuffed and watched as Kenny was frisked. She saw them remove a knife and a set of brass knuckles from Kenny's pockets, and then she noticed that he had urinated on himself.

• 33:11Vanessa Richardson?

  Shante and Kenny were placed in separate squad cars. A detective took Shante's purse and immediately noticed how heavy it was. He looked inside, expecting to find a weapon. Instead, he found stacks of cash, almost $10,000. Authorities knew all about Shante's history with various fraud and robbery charges, but still, this was a lot of money. The detective dug through Shante's purse some more and found something else. Underneath all the cash was a slip of paper to collect her bag at the Plaza. Shante didn't realize the detective had found the slip of paper, so from the backseat, she made excuses about the $10,000. She claimed it was hers and that she was on vacation.

• 33:55Vanessa Richardson?

  She said, quote, "You can never come to New York with less than $10,000." Whatever story Shante was trying to sell them, authorities wouldn't let her and Kenny feed off each other. They were placed in separate rooms, and they were both told they were suspected of stealing a car from a dealer in Utah. Shante seemed relieved to hear this was the only thing she was supposedly in trouble for, but the more questions Kenny was asked, the more agitated he became. Then, when he learned that Shante was being held in a room two doors down, he started shouting after every question, "Mom, what should I do?"

• 34:34Tristin Engels?

  And this is a classic sign of extreme dependency and exactly what we would expect from everything I described. His entire sense of stability came from her directing his thoughts, emotions, and decisions. He was never allowed to develop internal coping skills. He didn't learn how to regulate himself, how to make independent choices, or even how to trust his own judgment. He'd spent his whole life responding to her cues and relying on her to define what's right, what's wrong, and what comes next. So now he doesn't know how to function without her. He's too psychologically dependent, to the point that his entire world falls apart the moment she isn't there to hold it together.

• 35:12Vanessa Richardson?

  When detectives realized how panicked Kenny was, they decided to search him again. This time, they found a number of credit cards and IDs belonging to an elderly Florida lawyer, a Florida ID card in the name of Manny Garin, and an American Express card belonging to Irene Silverman. At this point, the members of the task force had no idea who Irene Silverman was. The investigators thought Kenny and Shante had stolen these items from people they'd encountered on their way from California to New York. Pretty soon, they were also one step closer to nabbing Shante and Kenny for stealing the car, because they also found two sets of keys and a parking stub for a Manhattan garage. Someone was dispatched to the garage where they found the Lincoln.

• 35:57Vanessa Richardson?

  The car had temporary Utah plates, and the backseat was piled high with luggage, plastic bags, and papers. Between all this evidence, Shante and Kenny were booked on fraud charges, and bail was set at $20,000. It was a good start, but they still needed more proof that Shante and Kenny had murdered David Kazdin. For the next two days, the task force awaited the arrival of LAPD detectives. Meanwhile, the disappearance of Irene Silverman made headline news. Police had fanned out around the city looking for her, and held a press conference asking for the public's help. Pretty soon, authorities realized who was really sitting in their interrogation room.

• 36:46Vanessa Richardson?

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• 37:29Vanessa Richardson?

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• 38:05Speaker 08

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• 38:35Speaker 09

  The police closed my sister's case in 2019. Last month, her killer commented on my post. On Reddit, true crime doesn't come from journalists. It comes from the victims, the witnesses, and sometimes the suspects themselves. People post the things they'd never say out loud, anonymous, unfiltered, and completely real. And every Tuesday, on Crimes of Reddit, we read them out loud. I'm Sabrina Deanna-Roga from Two Girls One Ghost. And I'm Alexis Linkletter from The First Degree. Each week, one of us brings the most unhinged true crime stories the internet has to offer. And the other goes in completely blind. No prep, no spoilers, reacting in real time, same as you. And then we swap.

• 39:17Speaker 09

  And we pull every thread until the whole twisted picture comes into view. It's dark, it's messy, and the scariest part is that these are real stories, posted by real people. New episodes drop every Tuesday. Listen to and follow Crimes of Reddit, available now wherever you get your podcasts.

• 39:38Vanessa Richardson?

  In July of 1998, NYPD detectives were on the hunt for Irene Silverman and whoever was behind her sudden disappearance. During a press conference, they said they were searching for Irene's tenant, who had also disappeared, a man named Manny Guerin. Another NYPD detective, who was part of the Joint Task Force, saw the news and realized that Manny Guerin was sitting in his interrogation room because he was actually Kenny Kimes. Now that authorities were all on the same page, the task force realized they might know where Irene's body was. Detectives returned to the Lincoln and searched it again, looking more closely at the jumble of items in the backseat.

• 40:22Vanessa Richardson?

  In addition to luggage, plastic bags, and papers, they found many items, including a jar of roofies, syringes, gloves, mace, and multiple notebooks. The trunk was empty, except for a large, black duffel bag, big enough for a person to fit inside. But when they opened it up, Irene wasn't there. However, back at the station, authorities realized that the keys found in Kenny's pockets belonged to Irene. However, they still didn't have any evidence to physically connect Shante and Kenny to Irene's disappearance.

• 41:00Vanessa Richardson?

  As their investigation continued, Shontay and Kenny lawyered up. Shontay urged her lawyer to retrieve the small black duffel bag she had checked at the Plaza Hotel. But police beat them there. Someone had remembered the slip of paper found in Shontay's purse. On July 23rd, a little more than two weeks after Irene's murder, police figured out that it was a ticket for something she'd checked at the Plaza. They issued a subpoena and retrieved a small black duffel bag. When they opened it, they found a 22 caliber semi-automatic gun, masks, stolen credit cards, more notebooks, and a folder labeled "Final Dynasty."

• 41:43Vanessa Richardson?

  Inside this folder was the forged deed to Irene Silverman's house. Detectives now felt certain that they had their killers. However, without a body, the case would be hard to prosecute. In the meantime, while authorities worked to build a murder case, Shontay and Kenny were indicted for credit card fraud. They immediately applied for bail, which was denied. Between July and November 1998, Shontay and Kenny applied for bail 13 times and were denied by nine different judges. Los Angeles authorities wanted to extradite them back to California in connection with the murder of David Kazdin. However, the New York District Attorney's Office finally decided to proceed with murder

• 42:27Vanessa Richardson?

  charges of their own, even though they couldn't find Irene Silverman's body. Shontay and Kenny were indicted on 84 counts between the two of them, including conspiracy, forgery, weapons possession, grand larceny, and second-degree murder. Their trial began in early 2000 and lasted almost four months. Prosecutors laid out an elaborate history of Shontay and Kenny's fraud and deception. They outlined Shontay's schemes in California, Las Vegas, the Bahamas, Florida, and finally, New York. They presented all the evidence in Irene's murder investigation and called witnesses, including Stan Patterson, who sold them the gun, Robert McCarron, who had briefly worked

• 43:12Vanessa Richardson?

  as their driver in LA, and both notaries that Shontay and Kenny had met with in New York. But the most dramatic evidence came from Irene Silverman herself. Because as it turned out, Irene had recorded the call in which Shante tried to trick her into providing her social security number. Not only that, but everything Shante had said in the recording was scripted in one of her notebooks. Shante had clearly planned this out from the start.

• 43:43Tristin Engels?

  So it's interesting because I don't think Shante wrote everything down in notebooks because she wanted to be organized. I think it was because it was another way for her to feel powerful, in control, prepared, and a step ahead. And like we've seen throughout both episodes so far, and in a lot of episodes we have covered that involve individuals who are overly confident or entitled, they assume that they can control every variable. They don't imagine getting caught, so they don't imagine things like this becoming evidence. That's optimism bias, again, at work. The "it won't happen to me" mindset. And ultimately, that superiority and overconfidence often becomes the very thing that takes them down in the end.

• 44:26Tristin Engels?

  These notebooks exposed her plans, her intentions, her targets, and even the steps she and Kenny took. It's a striking example of how her need for control and precision ultimately stripped her of both of those things.

• 44:38Vanessa Richardson?

  After 43 days of testimony, 129 witnesses, and over 10,000 pages of transcript, the prosecution rested. Then, the defense pushed back hard. They argued that there was no body, no blood, no DNA, no proof at all that a murder had even occurred. They said the prosecution's case might have sounded compelling, but it was built entirely on circumstantial evidence, and that there was no proof that Shante had actually written what was in the notebooks. Neither Shante nor Kenny took the stand. Instead, they sat close together at the defense table, often holding hands, until the judge told them to stop.

• 45:21Vanessa Richardson?

  The jury deliberated for three days, and on May 18, 2000, they reached their verdicts. In the crowded courtroom, mother and son sat perfectly still as the jury forewoman rose and read all the verdicts. Shante and Kenny were found guilty on every single count. They were both facing life in prison for their crimes in New York. At sentencing, a month later, Shontay was allowed to address the court. True to form, she used her time not to apologize, but to lash out, criticizing nearly everyone involved in the trial. At one point, she stood up and said, "This is the first time in United States history that an innocent mother and son

• 46:06Vanessa Richardson?

  have been convicted of a crime that didn't happen." She kept talking until the judge finally made her sit down. Even facing life in prison, Shontay couldn't resist performing.

• 46:20Tristin Engels?

  This is another very common behavior in individuals with narcissistic traits and a strong need for control. It's a psychological defense mechanism, and I talked about it a little bit in episode one. If Shontay can reframe herself as the victim, as the misunderstood figure at the center of some conspiracy, then she doesn't have to confront the reality of what she's done, and she can maintain a reputation and image that she's comfortable with. Admitting guilt would mean admitting weakness, flaws, and a loss of control, and those are intolerable to someone with her personality structure. So she does the only thing she knows how to do. She performs, she reframes, blames, and distorts. In her mind, if she can control the story, she can control the outcome, especially if she is facing life in prison,

• 47:05Tristin Engels?

  because to her, what is there to lose? Not that consequences ever meant anything to her in the first place. The only thing that matters is maintaining her image and her identity, and that is someone too clever to be caught, too important to be wrong, and too special to be guilty. So this is her last grasp at power.

• 47:24Vanessa Richardson?

  Shontay's words did little to sway the judge, who sentenced her and Kenny to the maximum sentences possible. Shontay, 120 years to life. Kenny, 126. But the legal system wasn't done with them yet. They still faced extradition to California for David Kasdan's murder. And if they were convicted of first-degree murder in California, they could face the death penalty. Which is why they weren't done fighting. From prison, Shante contacted reporters so that she and Kenny could tell their side of the story. On July 19th, 2000, CNN sent Larry King to speak to her in prison.

• 48:07Vanessa Richardson?

  However, Shante was just as insincere as she'd been during her sentencing hearing. When Larry King asked her if she thought she'd done nothing wrong, Shante said, "Of course she had. She'd grown up homeless and used to steal cheese." No matter what, Shante couldn't help but play the victim. She even denied all her past convictions and claimed her first husband's family members were actually the ones guilty of slavery against household employees, and they'd set her up. Suffice it to say, Shante's interview didn't help her reputation, so she set up another sit-down with Court TV. However, that didn't do anything to help improve her reputation either.

• 48:50Vanessa Richardson?

  So next, it was Kenny's turn, and his tactics made matters even worse for the mother and son. In October 2000, Kenny agreed to do an interview with Court TV from his jail cell. A reporter named Maria Zohn arrived at the maximum-security state prison in upstate New York. Once she was there, Kenny quickly made it clear he had no intention of going through with the interview as planned. Instead, he grabbed Maria and held a ballpoint pen to her throat. He refused to let her go unless authorities agreed not to extradite his mother to California. After four tense hours, authorities finally agreed to spare Shante from the death penalty,

• 49:33Vanessa Richardson?

  and Kenny let Maria go unharmed. In exchange, Kenny agreed to plead guilty to David Kasdan's murder and testify against Shante.

• 49:45Tristin Engels?

  This was an action driven by desperation, especially when you understand Kenny's psychology and the years of conditioning that he'd been subjected to. Taking the reporter hostage was him in pure crisis mode, trying to save his mother's life. He reacted the only way he knew how, which was impulsively, dramatically, and with total disregard for the consequences. I don't think he was thinking long-term in that moment at all. But once that immediate crisis passed and he succeeded in protecting her, he faced a new crisis, which was his own survival. And for the first time, he had to rely on his own instincts, which was independent of Shante. He had to figure out how to protect himself without her directing every move. So while it looks contradictory, because it certainly does, he agreed to testify against

• 50:30Tristin Engels?

  her after saving her life. Psychologically, it actually isn't. Testifying doesn't undo the protection he'd already secured for her, and it didn't put her life at risk, but it did help him safeguard his own. And for someone who'd never made a truly independent decision before, that shift from protecting her to protecting himself is actually a sign that this dependency of his was starting to actually fracture just a little bit.

• 50:56Vanessa Richardson?

  Kenny might have understood what it meant to hold himself to account because he held up his end of the bargain and then some. He went on to tell investigators everything about he and his mother's string of crimes, including details of Irene's killing. He said that he dumped her body in New Jersey, although it was never found. Kenny also confessed to helping Shante murder Syed Bilal Ahmed in the Bahamas back in 1996. Kenny claimed they drugged him, drowned him, and then dumped his body in the ocean. However, no charges have ever been filed against Shante or Kenny for Ahmed's death. Finally, Shante and Kenny were found guilty of David Kazdin's murder in July 2004.

• 51:41Vanessa Richardson?

  They both received additional life sentences as a result. After more than a decade in prison, Shante died of natural causes in her cell at the Bedford Hills Correctional Facility in Westchester County, New York, in May 2014. She was 79 years old. Today, Kenny remains incarcerated at Richard J. Donovan Correctional Facility in San Diego County, California. He will spend the rest of his life confined from the outside world, the same way Shante had raised him. Kenny's blind faith in Shante led him down a rabbit hole of deceit, violence, and death.

• 52:22Vanessa Richardson?

  And in the end, they both ended up all alone.

• 52:42Vanessa Richardson?

  Thanks so much for listening. Join us next week for a deep dive into the mind of another murderer. Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media at @CrimeHouse. Don't forget to rate, review, and follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference. And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Serial Killers and Murderous Minds ad-free, along with early access to each thrilling two-part series and exciting bonus content.

• 53:26Vanessa Richardson?

  Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson, and Dr. Tristin Engels, and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds team: Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benadon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pritzowski, Sarah Camp, Heather Dundas, Sarah Tardif, and Carrie Murphy. Of the many sources we used when researching this episode, the one we found the most credible and helpful was "They Call Them Grifters" by Alice McQuillan. Thank you for listening.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  The moment a body is found, the clock starts ticking. Forty-eight hours. That's how long detectives have before the trail begins to go cold. From A and E and Crime House, this is the official podcast from the famous true crime series, The First Forty-Eight. Step inside the critical window, the interrogations, the dead ends, and the breakthroughs that crack a case wide open. I'm Carter Roy. Each week, I revisit a landmark homicide investigation with the depth you know and immersive, long-form storytelling built for your ears. Real detectives, real cases, real stakes. This is The First Forty-Eight.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  New episodes every Thursday. Listen to and follow The First Forty-Eight on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

• 55:07Vanessa Richardson?

  If you're looking for your next podcast, check out What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.