Pod Insights Serial Killers & Murderous Minds MURDEROUS MINDS: The Mysterious Romanov Family Assassination Pt. 2 About this episode In the early hours of July 17, 1918, the Romanov family was led into a basement—and history was forever changed. In the gripping conclusion, Killer Minds unpacks the brutal execution of the former royals, the chaotic cover-up that followed, and the decades of rumors that convinced the world at least one child survived. From false Anastasia claims to groundbreaking DNA discoveries nearly a century later, this episode examines why humanity clings to legends when reality is too horrific to face—and how the truth ultimately came to light.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Vanessa Richardson? Hi, everyone. Before today's episode, there's another show I want to tell you about. It's called What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Plus, Connor's infectious energy that'll make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on earth. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.
0:36 Speaker 01 This is Crime House.
0:41 Vanessa Richardson? Everyone loves a good story, whether we're in need of a good laugh or some cathartic tears. Stories help us understand and connect with the world around us, but they also help us make sense of the unthinkable. In the wake of the disappearance of Russia's Romanov royal family in 1918, people all over the world came up with stories to explain what happened. And the more time passed without any real answers, the more those stories became legend. However, the truth about the Romanovs couldn't stay buried forever. And when the real story came to light, it was more haunting than many had imagined.
1:37 Vanessa Richardson? The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is Serial Killers and Murderous Minds, a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.
1:53 Tristin Engels? And I'm forensic psychologist Dr. Tristin Engels. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer.
2:03 Vanessa Richardson? Crime House is made possible by you. Follow serial killers and murderous minds and subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts for ad-free early access to each two-part series. Before we get started, be advised, this episode contains descriptions of murder. Today, we conclude our deep dive into the 1918 murder of the Romanov family, the last members of the longstanding Russian monarchy. Amidst the violence of the Russian Revolution, the former royals were held hostage and brutally killed, sparking one of the most infamous murder mysteries in history. While the truth has finally been revealed about what happened to the Romanovs,
2:44 Vanessa Richardson? the answers force us to look within and ask ourselves what we're all really capable of.
2:51 Tristin Engels? As Vanessa goes through the story, I'll be talking about things like how people respond when there's a clear lack of answers after a traumatizing event, how violent and sensationalized stories take hold, and the measures people go to to keep stories alive.
3:06 Vanessa Richardson? And as always, we'll be asking the question, what makes a killer?
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4:47 Vanessa Richardson? In the early morning hours of July 17, 1918, Bolshevik commander Yakov Yurovsky led the Romanov family into the basement of the Epotev House in the Ural Mountains. The former Russian royals had been held captive for about a year at that point. So when Yurovsky told the family, as well as their staff members who had accompanied them from Alexander Palace, to pack their bags, they didn't know whether they were being moved to another location, or if they were marching to their deaths. Pretty soon, the horrifying reality became clear. Yurovsky brought ten Bolshevik guards into the room, who pulled out their revolvers and began firing.
5:30 Vanessa Richardson? Czar Nicholas II was killed first, followed quickly by his wife, Zarina Alexandra. He was 50 years old at the time, and she was 46. Nicholas's abdication from the throne over a year earlier had marked the end of an era. Now, he and Alexandra's deaths struck horror in the hearts of their five children: 22-year-old Olga, 21-year-old Tatiana, 19-year-old Maria, 17-year-old Anastasia, and 13-year-old Alexei.
6:01 Vanessa Richardson? Chaos ensued. The children and their staff screamed and ducked for cover. Pretty soon, the smoke-filled room fell silent, except for the sound of plaster falling from the bullet-riddled walls. The guards stepped outside to gasp for air, and after a few moments, they heard pained moans from inside. Then, they heard screams. The guards stepped back into the room and realized all five Romanov children and their four staff members were writhing in agony. No one had been shot cleanly. The guards had prioritized killing Nicholas and Alexandra first, but after that, they couldn't see through all the smoke their own guns produced.
6:44 Vanessa Richardson? Some of these guards had been hesitant to kill the children, especially the girls, but Yurovsky said they had to. And while these men were militant revolutionaries, they didn't know how to carry out a merciful execution. They had been completely unprepared, and now, they were looking straight at the consequences of their violence.
7:04 Tristin Engels? This is truly horrific. But their reactions in this moment represent a combination of panic, shock, and terror. They were now faced with watching the suffering of the children they grew fond of that challenges their own morals and ethics in the face of the mission they're driven by. And in a moment like this, many would have experienced an acute stress response to that. You kind of see it in the retreat from the room, and the gasping for air, and the hesitation to go back inside. And certainly, the gunfire and an enclosed room will contribute to their difficulty breathing and their need to step out. But that's partly also a response from the nervous system trying to escape an intolerable situation as well. And because they were untrained, they lacked both technical skill and emotional containment.
7:49 Tristin Engels? And that combination creates the chaos that's happening here. This is something they are going to have to live with for the rest of their lives, and the weight of that reality always settles in after the fact.
8:00 Vanessa Richardson? So these guards had promised their leaders that they would kill the entire family. But how could these internal reactions affect how they decide what to do next?
8:09 Tristin Engels? What often happens next in situations like this is forced completion. Once the line has been crossed, stopping can feel more dangerous than continuing. So admitting hesitation would mean acknowledging doubt, weakness, or betrayal. And all things like that carry real consequences in that environment, not just to their leaders, but amongst each other too. There's also psychological momentum, which sounds like such a callous way of describing this, but it's true. When violence doesn't go as planned, people may escalate rather than pause because slowing down would require fully confronting the suffering they've caused, not to mention the sunk cost fallacy. And continuing becomes a way to end the chaos,
8:52 Tristin Engels? soothe their own anxiety in the moment right now from hearing the terror and the cries and the screams and the agony and the fear that they're experiencing right now.
9:03 Vanessa Richardson? With few bullets left, the guards had no idea how to finish what they'd started. To make matters worse, some of them had consumed alcohol before the killings started. So between their panic and drunkenness, they were at a loss. Until finally, someone said they should use their bayonets. Acting quickly, the guards rushed their victims and stabbed them repeatedly, trying to get it over with quickly. However, the guards were so disoriented, they still couldn't manage to kill anyone cleanly. Some of them dropped their bayonets and used the butts of their guns to beat their victims to death. Nearly 20 minutes went by as the family was brutally maimed and tortured, and the Romanov girls suffered the worst of it.
9:48 Vanessa Richardson? The guards' ineffectiveness wasn't entirely to blame. Part of the reason they couldn't fatally wound any of the girls was that the royal daughters had sewn jewels into the inside of their clothes, which blunted their blows. The guards were exhausted by the time most of their victims were finally dead. However, some of the children were still clinging to life, despite how badly they'd been stabbed. Finally, the guards used the last of their bullets to put them out of their misery. When it was all said and done, the room was covered in gunpowder, bullet holes, and blood. Some of the guards stepped outside again and vomited. They could barely believe what they'd just done. It was a completely inhumane slaughter, and if anyone learned
10:33 Vanessa Richardson? the truth, it would be a stain on Russian history forever.
10:39 Vanessa Richardson? The operation had been far more gruesome than they had planned for. The Bolshevik's entire goal was to eliminate the monarchy so their regime could take power, but if people ever learned the truth about what happened, they'd lose everything. So, Yurovsky told his men to gather themselves and prepare to hide the bodies. First, Yurovsky methodically checked each body to confirm they were all dead. Then, he told the men to grab the corpses and haul them through the basement and into the truck in the courtyard. Once the truck was loaded, they made their way into the Koptyaki Forest, where they planned to dump all the bodies into a mineshaft. However, the truck was so weighed down with the weight of the
11:20 Vanessa Richardson? bodies, what was only a nine-mile drive took hours because the truck kept getting stuck in the mud. And that was just the beginning of their troubles, because when they finally got to their destination, they realized what they'd thought was a mineshaft was actually just a hole about eight feet deep. The night had been so chaotic and exhausting already, so they tried fitting all the bodies inside anyway. But first, they stripped the family of all their clothes. That's when the guards discovered the jewels sewn into Alexandra and the girls' garments, and it's believed they pocketed the riches for themselves.
11:57 Tristin Engels? That would be a very revealing psychological contradiction, like stealing the jewels of slain royalty when their entire case was essentially at the core about wealth inequality. But simply because they committed violence in the name of ideology doesn't mean they're suddenly immune to basic human drives like fear, scarcity, or self-interest. The theft was likely justified psychologically as compensation, survival, or even spoils of victory, rather than being viewed as stealing. And we also have to factor in acute stress responses. Without minimizing the severity of their actions, high-stress traumatic events often trigger self-protective thinking.
12:38 Tristin Engels? Grabbing valuables can function as an unconscious attempt to reclaim control after participating in something overwhelming. So while it was hypocrisy, it was also more than that. It was a combination of rationalization, emotional reaction, and the human tendency to justify personal gain once moral boundaries have already been crossed. And like I always say, once a moral boundary line has been crossed, crossing the next can become much easier to do.
13:04 Vanessa Richardson? Do you think it was more likely that these guards never cared about others and only cared about their own personal gain? Or do you think they tossed their morals to the side when they were presented with the opportunity? Or maybe it's something else?
13:16 Tristin Engels? I think it's probably neither extreme, especially since we are basing it off the information we have here. And that information shows a lot of confliction and hesitation leading up to this moment. It's unlikely that they've never cared about others, and it's also too simple to say they suddenly abandoned all morals in one moment. What I think's more consistent with psychology is just moral shift under pressure. I think it's a complex mix of their ideology, but pressure externally and from each other in the moment, and authority that demanded obedience, fear or fear of punishment, and opportunity.
13:51 Vanessa Richardson? Their hypocrisy was made worse by their complete lack of respect for the dead. Not only had they failed to secure a proper burial, but when the bodies wouldn't all fit inside the hole, Yurovsky was worried that local peasants would find them. So he told his men to put all the bodies back inside the truck, and they'd come back the following day to try to find another spot. Things only got worse, though. The next day, they planned to drive further into the forest so no one would see them, but the truck still kept getting stuck. So they only made it about 10 miles in, just a mile further than before. At that point, Yurovsky was sick of all the back and forth, so he told his men to get
14:32 Vanessa Richardson? out, dig shallow graves where they stood, and leave the bodies there. Before covering the graves, the men poured quicklime over the bodies to conceal the smell. And when they were done, they covered the fresh graves with wooden planks. However, Yurovsky thought that if the bodies were all buried in the same spot, they'd be easier to identify if anyone found them later. So he and his men brought two of the children's bodies a little further, then burned them before leaving their charred remains in another set of shallow graves. In the end, the whole process was far from the stealth mission Yurovsky had envisioned. On top of all that, they now had to return to the Ipateev house to scrub the basement of all the evidence of what had happened there.
15:17 Vanessa Richardson? Once that was done, the Bolsheviks sent a telegram to Moscow, where Vladimir Lenin had taken power. They said that only Tsar Nicholas had been executed and that the rest of the Romanov family was in a "safe" location. Of course, Lenin knew the full truth, but this was the narrative the Bolsheviks had agreed on. Lenin feared the international outrage that would be caused by the murder of women and children. He and his party didn't want retaliation, so this remained the official story for years.
15:49 Tristin Engels? This is actually a rather familiar tactic, even to this day. This is calibrated truth. Leaders often release just enough information to appear transparent, but withholding the parts that could trigger moral outrage. Psychologically, this works because people want transparency, but at varying tolerance levels. A single targeted act of violence can be rationalized as necessary to the public, but widespread or indiscriminate violence, especially against civilians or children, overwhelms that tolerance and affects the support of the public. So the narrative is shaped to stay below the threshold level of outrage and to maintain public control. Misinformation like this is about emotional management.
16:33 Vanessa Richardson? How does telling some truth, but not the full truth, make someone seem more credible?
16:39 Tristin Engels? Because a partial truth feels honest. When someone admits some wrongdoing, the brain registers transparency and lowers its defenses just a little bit. It signals something like, you know, at least they're not hiding everything. That perception builds trust, even when the most damaging details are clearly missing. They're less likely to fill in the blanks, too, with fear-based beliefs like corruption or conspiracy. But if part of the story checks out, most people, and certainly not all people, but most people assume the rest probably checks out, too. Our minds prefer coherence over contradiction, especially during crisis. So selective truths can reassure the majority of people.
17:25 Vanessa Richardson? For the next two weeks, the story circulated around Russia. During that time, around July 25, 1918, the anti-Bolshevik White Army marched into Yekatirinburg with plans to rescue the Romanovs. By now, they'd heard that Nicholas was dead, but they believed the rest of the family was still alive. Despite the rumors they'd been moved, the Whites thought they may still be at the Ipatiev house. They marched there and tore down the fence the Bolsheviks had put up, and that's when they realized they were too late. There was no sign of the family anywhere. Soon, the Whites realized something catastrophic had happened.
18:06 Vanessa Richardson? Little did they know, the clues they were about to uncover were only the tip of the iceberg.
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18:52 Tristin Engels? The government gets a bad reputation, but did you know that the roads under your feet, the forecast on your phone, the letter in your mailbox, that's all government too? I'm Professor Lindsay Cormack, and I'm hosting a new podcast called "Government That Doesn't Suck", alongside Professor Greg Jackson, who you may know from the hit podcast "History That Doesn't Suck". Each episode, we dig into the surprising story of an American institution, from the origins of the internet to the National Park Service, to the GI Bill, and so much more. You'll hear the stories behind them, plus a conversation with an expert who knows it inside and out. This is the real history of how we built the country under your feet, and you'll never look at any of it the same way again. Listen to and follow "Government That Doesn't Suck",
19:36 Tristin Engels? available now wherever you get your podcasts.
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20:44 Vanessa Richardson? Around July 25, 1918, the White Army arrived at Yekatirinburg. To their shock and dismay, the Romanovs were no longer inside the Ipateev House. The soldiers went inside and carefully made their way through the house. In the upstairs bedrooms, some of the family's belongings were left scattered. And in the basement, the whites found what was left over of the mayhem. The room had clearly been scrubbed down, but bullet holes were still visible, and some of the plaster was completely blasted through. Then, when the soldiers stepped back out of the room, they realized not everything had been scrubbed clean, because there was a thin trail of blood leading down the hallway.
21:28 Vanessa Richardson? Clearly, something violent had happened here, maybe even something deadly. And it was far worse than one simple execution. The leaders of the White Army knew they had to get to the bottom of this. Alexandra and her children could be out there somewhere. They immediately secured the property as a way to preserve the scene. Then, as word spread around town that the Romanovs were missing, someone came forward claiming he knew what happened. One of their own officers had been hiding in Yekatirinburg to keep an eye on the Bolsheviks. He'd been watching the city from a secret location, inside the Kaptayaki Forest, where the Bolsheviks had disposed of the Romanovs' bodies. The officer didn't know what exactly he'd witnessed,
22:12 Vanessa Richardson? but he told the others he'd seen suspicious activity in the early morning hours of July 17th. He'd heard the sound of a truck engine, which was odd considering how muddy it had been at the time. He also heard voices and what sounded like digging. He couldn't be sure, but he believed the Bolsheviks had been hiding evidence. The Whites led a group of peasants to that area of the forest, following the officer's lead. There, the searchers found an alarming sight: scraps of charred clothing and scorched leather on the ground. They sifted through the items, and soon, someone spotted something that looked like metal. He picked it up, dusted it off, and his stomach dropped.
22:55 Vanessa Richardson? It was a belt buckle with the Romanov double-headed eagle. The group was shocked to see the Imperial Coat of Arms left in this state. Not only that, but the belt buckle was proof that the Bolsheviks had done something to the family. However, the Whites still didn't know what exactly. For all they knew, the Bolsheviks had simply burned and disposed of Nicholas's belongings. But there were no signs of what might have become of Alexandra and the kids. The Whites needed to find answers, fast. They rushed back into town, where they spoke with some of the local peasants. People said that on the night in question, the roads had been blocked off, and there was smoke rising from the forest early in the morning. They also said they heard a truck engine going in and out of the forest at that time.
23:42 Vanessa Richardson? No matter how hard the whites continued to search, though, they couldn't find any more clues in the forest or inside the house. And once the locals realized that the whites didn't know what happened, rumors swirled. Without official answers, people made up stories of their own. One of the most popular versions of events was that all of the Romanovs had died except one. People believed the youngest girl, Anastasia, had been spared and brought to an undisclosed location. Not all the stories were as hopeful, though. Throughout the world, newspapers published salacious accounts about horrible things the guards had done to the girls and Alexandra. While none of those claims were substantiated, some outlets reported that the family had
24:27 Vanessa Richardson? been stabbed relentlessly with bayonets, which was true. Of course, no members of the public had any way of knowing fact from fiction, but one thing was clear: Most people believed that the Bolsheviks were lying about what happened, and that the truth was far more grim. One person who was especially affected by the rumors was Nicholas's first cousin, King George V of England. King George had rescinded his offer for the Romanovs to seek refuge in London after Nicholas stepped down, and each time he heard a new rumor, he blamed himself for what happened to Nicholas and his family.
25:05 Tristin Engels? Let's talk about rumors again, particularly at a time like this. We struggle with the unknown as a species because uncertainty leaves our nervous system unsettled, especially, again, with content like this. When there's no clear ending, our brains keep searching for resolution. Our mind will fill in the gaps. Some people gravitate toward hopeful narratives, like the belief that Anastasia escaped, because hope restores a sense of order for them. As long as survival is possible, their own fear and their own sense of safety can be regulated to some degree. Others move in the opposite direction. For them, imagining the worst can actually feel more controllable than not knowing at all.
25:47 Tristin Engels? A terrible certainty can feel psychologically easier than ambiguity, and hope feels more dangerous than the certainty of a final outcome, even if it is negative. Rumors tend to thrive here because they serve an emotional function. They serve emotional regulation.
26:04 Vanessa Richardson? Why is it that certain kinds of stories often spread faster than actual verified facts? What is it about violence and sensational details that makes them so viral?
26:14 Tristin Engels? Stories spread based on emotional impact. The brain always prioritizes survival, and information that involves violence, threat, or betrayal activates the nervous system. Sensational details trigger fear, outrage, or alarm, all of which are emotions that push people to act and to share. Verified facts, by contrast, are often slower, less dramatic, and don't activate the same sense of urgency. So while facts inform, stories move people into action often. This is where true crime fits in, especially for women. Women are disproportionately targeted by certain types of violence, and many women engage with true crime content out of vigilance. It becomes a way to learn patterns and red flags and survival strategies.
26:59 Tristin Engels? So in that sense, consuming sensational true crime stories is less about entertainment and more about control in a world that can feel unsafe. Shout out to all of our women listeners, but of course, we love our male listeners, too. Violent or sensational stories go viral because they help people anticipate danger, make sense of shocking behavior, and feel prepared in some small way.
27:20 Vanessa Richardson? Well, one group that seemed to recognize the power of rumors was none other than the White Army. After they failed to free the Romanovs, they needed a way to garner support. So while the Bolsheviks were fighting to regain control of Yekaterinburg, the Whites worked hard to promote the theory that Vladimir Lenin's foot soldiers had massacred the royal family. In February 1919, about seven months after the Romanovs were killed, the Whites still had control over Yekaterinburg. And they brought in a former federal investigator and loyal monarchist, Nikolai Sokolov, to help investigate. Sokolov asked townspeople about what the Bolsheviks had been up to the year before, not just on the night of the presumed murders, but the entire time they held the Romanovs
28:05 Vanessa Richardson? captive there. Now that the Bolsheviks had lost their hold of the town, people felt more comfortable speaking to the Whites and sharing the full details of what they'd seen. And apparently, there wasn't just suspicious activity in the Kaptayaki Forest on July 17th and 18th. In fact, the Bolsheviks had regularly killed their enemies and disposed of their bodies there. This posed a challenge to Sokolov, who realized that even if he did find human remains, he couldn't be sure who they belonged to. Remember, this was long before forensic DNA technology was available, but Sokolov still had to see what he could find. So some of the witnesses led him into the part of the forest
28:47 Vanessa Richardson? where the White Army officer had seen suspicious activity. There, he made a groundbreaking discovery. About 10 miles into the forest, Sokolov stumbled upon what seemed to be a mineshaft. He climbed down into it and discovered scraps of clothing and some small jewels, which could have only belonged to royalty. But that wasn't all. He also found bone fragments which appeared human. Sokolov was floored. Based on everything he saw, he formed a correct theory that the entire Romanov family and their servants had been killed in the basement of the house, and then their bodies were burned and buried in the forest. He knew it would be hard to convince people, though,
29:31 Vanessa Richardson? since he'd only found partial remains. So for days, he kept digging from morning till night. However, Sokolov's work had to come to an abrupt stop because a few months later, in July 1919, the Bolsheviks regained control on Yekaterinburg. Sokolov quickly stored everything he had in boxes and fled. He returned to Europe, where he shared his findings with a trusted few. Sokolov had to be discreet now that the Bolsheviks were successfully forming the Soviet Union. Unfortunately, many monarchists and other European royals had become too afraid to speak out against the Soviets. So there was nothing more Sokolov could do.
30:13 Tristin Engels? Nikolai's shift here reflects a move into survival mode. He understood that he no longer had the resources, protection, or manpower to pursue justice in that moment. But fear doesn't erase his desire for justice. It just forces it into suppression. The cost of telling the truth had become too high, and that creates, really, a lot of internal conflict, like guilt, complicated grief, a sense of... Of defeat and helplessness. Knowing what happened, knowing you're right, and being unable to act on it is a very heavy burden. It's not apathy or cowardice. It's just a psychological toll of living in a reality where the truth itself is dangerous. And the trauma of carrying that in silence and of holding evidence that could change
30:58 Tristin Engels? history, but being powerless to use it is a burden, I think, far heavier than the fear alone. It's a weight that likely will never disappear for Nikolai.
31:08 Vanessa Richardson? Are there any other examples of this phenomenon that you're able to share? I know sometimes you can't share things, but maybe there's a victim or witness from a well-known case that you've known?
31:16 Tristin Engels? Oh, yeah, I can think of many instances where someone has evidence and is seeking justice but gets scared into silence. And the first ones that come to mind that are very well-known are Harvey Weinstein, Jeffrey Epstein, R. Kelly even. In these cases, the pattern mirrors what we see here with Nikolai. There's an initial push for justice, followed by a realization that the individual that is seeking justice can't safely pursue it at that moment in time. And trying to do that might ruin or end them in some way. And silence becomes a form of self-preservation in those instances.
31:49 Vanessa Richardson? Even though Sokolov didn't broadcast his findings, the Soviets caught wind of what he'd done. He escaped Soviet Russia, reportedly hid his box of evidence in a church in Belgium, then sought refuge in France. There, he continued interviewing witnesses who had also managed to escape. Unfortunately, Nikolai Sokolov died from natural causes in 1924, before he could ever publish his findings. Even though Sokolov had been forced into silence, there was someone else in Europe who kept the Romanov story alive in a major way. It all started in February 1920, almost two years after the Romanovs vanished, when
32:31 Vanessa Richardson? a young woman in Berlin jumped off a bridge in an apparent attempt to take her own life. She landed in the canal below, and fortunately, she survived. Police officers got her out of the canal and took her to a mental health institution. But when she got there, she wouldn't tell anyone her name. In fact, she barely spoke at all for the next six months. When the woman did finally start talking to people, she still kept her name private. However, people noticed that while she spoke German, she had a Russian accent. Staff members and other patients also noticed the woman had scars all over her body. People wondered what kind of trauma she must have endured.
33:12 Vanessa Richardson? And one woman, another patient named Clara, thought she knew the answer. Clara believed the mysterious woman was one of the Romanov daughters. Like everyone else in the world, Clara had heard the rumors that one of the girls had survived. In addition to the woman's Russian accent, Clara believed the woman's scars were from the stab wounds she'd sustained in the basement before being rescued. She was so convinced of her theory that when she was released from the facility, she tracked down some high-ranking Russian expats and told them about it. Even though most people believed Anastasia was the one who'd survived, Clara believed the woman was actually Tatiana, the second-oldest Romanov child.
33:54 Vanessa Richardson? And pretty soon, former aristocrats and Russian royal guards came to see the woman in the hospital to see if it was true. People showed her photographs they had of some of the Romanov's relatives and asked her if she recognized them, and asked her other questions that only a true Romanov would know the answers to. Some of these people had known the Romanov children when they were young and were genuinely hoping to reconnect with Tatiana. However, others were likely aware that Nicholas and Alexandra had left behind sizable inheritances and thought if they took the woman in, they might get a cut of the money.
34:30 Tristin Engels? I think what's happening here is meaning-making. People are seeking resolution. For some, belief offered hope, like I outlined earlier. That kind of hope regulates fear and grief. For others, the belief served identity and purpose, and particularly in the case of Clara, because the idea of discovering a surviving Romanov protects- Protecting her and advocating for her can give her a role in history. It allows her to participate in something meaningful. There's also trauma projection possibly at play here, too. The woman's silence, her accent, and the scars invited interpretation. And remember, when facts are scarce, the mind likes to fill gaps with narratives that fit existing emotional needs.
35:14 Tristin Engels? So in this case, the Romanov story was already alive in the collective imagination. I mean, it's only two years old at this point, and people have been waiting for answers or a resolution. So making this woman into a surviving Romanov meant they finally had one, a resolution, which was more palatable for them.
35:32 Vanessa Richardson? In terms of the people who were doing it for money, what's your take on someone who's not only willing to capitalize on a horrific tragedy, but go so far as to disturb a sick patient?
35:43 Tristin Engels? Yeah, this tells us a lot, truly. I mean, for starters, these individuals were viewing a woman who had just survived a mental health crisis and was still in the process of stabilizing as a means to an end. They likely justified their behavior by telling themselves that they were just asking questions or that the truth would come out eventually anyway. And that kind of rationalization makes it easier to cross ethical lines while still seeing themselves as innocent or decent or having good intentions. But at its core, this behavior is entitled, and it's exploitative. It goes beyond simple greed. It's what happens when self-interest overrides someone's empathy and when someone convinces
36:25 Tristin Engels? themselves that another person's trauma is an acceptable price for their own personal gain.
36:31 Vanessa Richardson? Few of the people who visited the woman got any answers. Usually, she became upset when people showed her photographs or recalled certain memories. Sometimes she even hid under the covers to avoid talking to them. There was one person who got something out of her, though, and that was a former guard to Nicholas's mother. The man had visited a few times and showed the woman photographs of his former charge. Even though the woman didn't respond to his questions, one day, after he left, she said to her nurses, quote, "That gentleman has a photo of my grandmother."
37:05 Vanessa Richardson? The nurses were completely stunned. News that one of the Romanovs might still be alive quickly spread. But soon, people realized just how much more was left to uncover.
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39:14 Speaker 06 The police closed my sister's case in 2019. Last month, her killer commented on my post. On Reddit, true crime doesn't come from journalists. It comes from the victims, the witnesses, and sometimes the suspects themselves. People post the things they'd never say out loud. Anonymous, unfiltered, and completely real. And every Tuesday on Crimes of Reddit, we read them out loud. I'm Sabrina Deana Roga from Two Girls, One Ghost. And I'm Alexis Linkletter from The First Degree. Each week, one of us brings the most unhinged true crime stories the internet has to offer. And the other goes in completely blind. No prep, no spoilers, reacting in real time, same as you. And then we swap.
39:56 Speaker 06 And we pull every thread until the whole twisted picture comes into view. It's dark, it's messy. And the scariest part is that these are real stories, posted by real people. New episodes drop every Tuesday. Listen to and follow Crimes of Reddit, available now wherever you get your podcasts.
40:15 Vanessa Richardson? In 1920, two years after the Romanovs mysteriously disappeared, a woman in a mental institution in Berlin finally claimed that she was one of the family's daughters. Someone else had sparked a rumor that she was Tatiana, though the woman hadn't confirmed the rumors until she saw a picture of Nicholas's mom and claimed it was her grandmother. When word got around about what she'd said, someone new eventually came to visit her, Tatiana Romanov's former lady-in-waiting. She took one look at the woman and said she was, quote, "too short to be Tatiana." The woman responded, "I never said I was Tatiana." When Nicholas's mother's former guard heard about this,
40:57 Vanessa Richardson? he interpreted the woman's statement to mean that she wasn't Tatiana, but she was one of the Romanov daughters. He went back to the hospital with a new plan. Instead of asking her questions or showing her pictures, he wrote down all the Romanov daughters' names. He passed her the pen and paper, and she crossed out every single name except one: Anastasia. With that, the story became an international sensation. Some people believed that the rumors were true and Anastasia had really survived. However, others thought the woman was just an impostor, trying to wedge her way into elite circles. There were even living Romanov relatives on each side of the argument.
41:40 Vanessa Richardson? When the woman was released from the hospital in 1922, she openly identified as Anastasia Romanov. A pair of wealthy Russian expats took her in, and for years afterward, she bounced between elite families, sometimes even staying in castles or attending lavish parties. At the same time, though, some of the Romanov's relatives took issue with the woman's claims, and they raised the matter in court to try and make sure she could never get any of the royal family's money. They had plenty of reason to be skeptical, especially because between 1918 and 1928, over half a dozen women had come forward claiming to be one of the Romanov daughters, but had been exposed as imposters.
42:23 Tristin Engels? It's actually not really surprising that there were so many imposters, given the response that followed to those who came forward. Claiming that identity offered instant meaning, protection, and belonging. And for some, especially those coming from trauma, poverty, displacement, or even anonymity, that would be incredibly appealing, because it brings attention, housing, advocacy, and access to elite circles. And culturally, the Romanov family represented unfinished tragedy, so the public wanted a survivor. And stepping into that role could instantly provide purpose and identity. There are many reasons someone might pose as a surviving Romanov without fully stopping to consider how harmful that is, not just to the people personally connected to the family, but to an entire community
43:08 Tristin Engels? that had been holding on to hope for so long.
43:11 Vanessa Richardson? This woman in Berlin had clearly been suffering from severe mental health challenges. Do you think she was somehow convinced that maybe she really was Anastasia?
43:20 Tristin Engels? I think it's absolutely possible. When someone's already experiencing significant mental health challenges, repeated external reinforcement can shape belief over time. In her case, nearly every interaction she had revolved around one question: Are you a Romanov? And when she responded in ways that aligned with that identity, she was rewarded with attention, with care, with validation, and eventually, housing and protection. That kind of reinforcement is powerful, especially for some. Someone who may have been traumatized, dissociated, or struggling with identity or reality testing. And over time, a story doesn't have to start as a deliberate lie. I don't think it even did on her part. She wasn't asserting that she was a Romanov. Somebody asserted for her.
44:05 Tristin Engels? And it doesn't have to start that way to become internalized as truth. So this may have been a belief that slowly solidified because everyone around her kept treating it as real or wanted it to be real. So it's hard to say for sure, but again, it's certainly possible.
44:22 Vanessa Richardson? While some were eager to convince others that one of the Romanovs lived, others wanted to shut down those claims. In 1927, a German newspaper published a story that the woman in Berlin, who had started going by the name Anna Anderson, was actually a factory worker from Poland named Franziska Schankowska. That report was likely a big reason why, in the end, the courts decided Anna wouldn't receive any of the Romanov fortune. Anna's story mostly died after that. And in 1968, she moved to the United States with her new husband. However, this wouldn't be the last the world heard of her. Because decades later, someone would discover yet another reason to believe one of the Romanov daughters had lived.
45:07 Vanessa Richardson? In 1979, during the later years of the Soviet Union, a pair of Yakotirinburg locals embarked on a secret, unauthorized dig in the Koptiaki forest. Alexander Avdonin, a geologist, and Gely Rabov, a filmmaker, had been researching and investigating the fate of the Romanovs for pretty much their whole lives. Over the years, the two of them had made some breakthrough discoveries. One was the diary of Yakov Yurovsky, who wrote a detailed account of the night the Romanovs disappeared. The guard explained that the entire family and their staff had, in fact, been brutally murdered in the basement of the Ipatev house and buried in the forest.
45:50 Vanessa Richardson? It was the first ever corroborating claim to Nikolai Sokolov's theory. However, it didn't say where exactly the family was buried. It wasn't until later that Sokolov himself offered the missing puzzle piece from beyond the grave. Alexander had obtained one of Sokolov's written accounts of a witness's testimony, which explained that the Bolsheviks had placed wooden planks over the Romanov's burial sites. By now, the evidence that Sokolov had stored away in a church was believed to have been destroyed during World War II. But even though those items were lost to time, Alexander and Gely believed there was more out there for them to find.
46:31 Vanessa Richardson? In the spring of 1979, the two men and their team managed to locate the exact burial site because the wooden planks were still there. They'd been laid like railroad tracks, which was perhaps a way to disguise what was hidden beneath. Now, when the team dug up the spot, they uncovered three human skulls with bullet holes in them. Alexander and Gely took the skulls with them and kept them preserved. But over the next year, they started to worry about what they'd done. Even though they'd obtained permits to dig, the Soviet government was still strongly opposed to even the slightest suggestion that the Romanov family had been tortured and killed.
47:14 Vanessa Richardson? Alexander and Gely couldn't find anyone willing to perform the necessary forensic tests, and soon, they were scared that if the government learned about what they'd found, they'd go to prison. Or worse, they too would disappear. So just one year after finding the skulls, they put them back where they found them, still in the box they'd stored them in.
47:39 Tristin Engels? The idea that their own government would retaliate against them in violent or lethal ways can create existential fear. That can reshape how a person thinks, feels, and makes decisions, as you can see here, and even with what happened with Nikolai Sokolov. In response, people often respond with hypervigilance and isolation. The nervous system is on high alert, and they scan for danger constantly because of reality-based threats to their life. And when you have nowhere to turn for protection, isolation becomes the logical But the more alone you are, at the same time, the more you avoid others, the more you reinforce that isolation is safe, and the more the fear of resurfacing and rejoining civilization again is amplified.
48:24 Tristin Engels? So it also creates just overall distress because they believe they were uncovering the truth, doing something historically significant. But now the truth itself had become dangerous. And that conflict between what they believe is right and what they must do to survive can create guilt, shame, and a sense of hopelessness, again, much like what Nikolai experienced.
48:47 Vanessa Richardson? It wouldn't be until more than a decade later, in 1990, that Alexander and Gely finally felt safe enough to come forward again. That year, the Soviet Union was on the verge of collapse, and the country was finally ready to confront its past. So Alexander and Gely appealed to Russia's first-ever democratically-elected president, Boris Yeltsin, to try digging up the site again. They told Yeltsin everything they knew, and he approved the formation of an official team of archaeologists and forensic experts to dig through the Koptayaki Forest once more. The team not only discovered the box containing three skulls, but six other sets of remains.
49:30 Vanessa Richardson? Almost all of the bone fragments they found showed signs of bullet wounds, stabbing, or blunt-force trauma. It was all completely in line with the theory that the Romanovs had been killed in the Patiev basement. And by 1994, forensic DNA analysis confirmed the astonishing news: it was the Romanovs. It was an historic moment, and cause for both celebration and grieving. However, there was also one problem: there were two bodies missing. Between the family and their staff members, there should have been 11 bodies total, but there were only nine. They were missing two of the children, Alexei and one of the girls, either Maria or Anastasia.
50:14 Vanessa Richardson? Investigators were completely stumped, and that's when someone asked a crucial question: what if Anna Anderson had been telling the truth? That would explain at least one of the missing bodies. Anna had died back in 1984, but some of her tissue had been preserved. DNA experts compared it to the remains found in the forest, and it was not a match. For people all over the world, the constant push and pull of this everlasting mystery was getting to be too much. Many wondered if the world would ever learn the full fate of the Romanovs.
50:50 Tristin Engels? The anticipation of closure finally, after all this time, and not fully getting it, had to have taken an emotional toll. The mind hates unfinished stories, especially ones tied to trauma or injustice and decades of speculation. That interruption creates cognitive dissonance, which we've talked about earlier, but we know the family was killed, but we don't have all the bodies. Those two truths don't neatly fit together, and to reduce the internal tension that causes, people start searching for explanations, which is why questions about Anna Anderson resurfaced. Even implausible theories become appealing because it's better than uncertainty. There's also a collective grief response.
51:34 Tristin Engels? For many, the Romanov story represents innocence lost, historical tragedy, and unanswered questions passed through generations. This experience can reactivate grief, frustration, or even anger. It's like emotional whiplash. And finally, mysteries like this evoke psychological investment from people. After so many years of theories and rumors and folklore, people feel personally connected to the outcome. So when there were still no answers, that can cause people to feel restless, or preoccupied, or even fatigued mentally by the ongoing mystery of it all. It's truly an emotional roller coaster, even now, even going through this with you, Vanessa.
52:18 Tristin Engels? It's an emotional roller coaster.
52:21 Vanessa Richardson? Years went by without any more answers. While much of the world had given up on ever learning the truth, there was one group of people who couldn't shake the feeling that investigators had missed something. And in 2007, they were proven right. That year, a group of amateur archaeologists was trudging through the Koptyaki Forest. This wasn't just any group of amateurs either. Every single summer, they spent each weekend looking specifically for the missing Romanov remains. And in July 2007, nine decades since the Romanovs were killed, the group stumbled upon a small hollow covered with nettles and brush. They started digging, and pretty soon, they turned up bone fragments.
53:06 Vanessa Richardson? The bones were just as badly damaged as the ones that had been found earlier. And when DNA experts compared the new sets of remains to the ones they already had, they confirmed the long-awaited truth. The remains belonged to Alexei and one of the girls. Almost a century later, the case was finally closed. The Romanovs would go down in history as symbols of a ruined empire and the end of a long chapter in Russian history. However, they're also symbols of a national wound that never fully healed. Through it all, people found ways to persevere and seek justice through hope, imagination, and sheer dedication.
54:05 Vanessa Richardson? Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next time for a deep dive into the mind of another killer.
54:12 Tristin Engels? Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media at @CrimeHouse. And don't forget to rate, review, and follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference.
54:34 Vanessa Richardson? And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Serial Killers and Murderous Minds ad-free, along with early access to each thrilling two-part series. Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson, and forensic psychologist Dr. Tristin Engels, and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds team: Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pritzowski, Sarah Camp, Inez Renike, Sarah Tardif, and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening.
55:22 Speaker 01 Did you know the most feared pirate in the Atlantic, the man who terrorized an entire ocean for years, may never have actually killed anyone? Or that the real Golden Age of Pirates was the most democratic workplace in the Western world? I'm Connor Tomlinson from Love on the Spectrum, and history is my thing. And I'm Carter Roy, and this is What the Fact. Every week, we take the most unbelievable true things in history and tell you the whole story behind them. Carter sets the scene, Connor brings the facts, the deep cuts, and the genuine belief that this is the most interesting subject in the world. It is. This is the history lesson you actually wished you had in high school.
56:02 Speaker 01 New episodes every Wednesday. Follow What the Fact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.
56:15 Speaker 01 The moment a body is found, the clock starts ticking. Forty-eight hours. That's how long detectives have before the trail begins to go cold. From A&E and Crime House, this is the official podcast from the famous true crime series, The First Forty-Eight. Step inside the critical window, the interrogations, the dead ends, and the breakthroughs that crack a case wide open. I'm Carter Roy. Each week, I revisit a landmark homicide investigation with a depth you know and immersive, long-form storytelling built for your ears. Real detectives,
56:54 Speaker 01 real cases, real stakes. This is The First Forty-Eight. New episodes every Thursday. Listen to and follow The First Forty-Eight on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
57:15 Vanessa Richardson? If you're looking for your next podcast, check out What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.
Previous MURDEROUS MINDS: The Mysterious Romanov Family Assassination Pt. 1 Next The American Bluebeard Pt. 1 Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated