Pod Insights Serial Killers & Murderous Minds MURDEROUS MINDS: Charles Manson & The Manson Family Cult Pt.1 About this episode Tune in to explore the chilling rise of Charles Manson, from his troubled youth in reform school and prison to his desperate pursuit of power in the late 1960s. Using his dangerous charisma, Manson formed the notorious Manson Family, a cult of devoted followers he manipulated into obeying his every word. Murderous Minds is a Crime House Original. For more true crime content, follow us @crimehouse on Tiktok and Instagram.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Vanessa Richardson? Hi everyone. Before today's episode, there's another show I want to tell you about. It's called What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Plus Connor's infectious energy that'll make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on earth. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.
0:32 Vanessa Richardson? We have an exciting update. Mind of a Serial Killer is now Killer Minds, expanding beyond serial killers to cover cult leaders, crimes of passion, spree killers, and more.
0:45 Tristin Engels? Nothing else is changing. Same expert analysis, same deep storytelling, now twice a week.
0:52 Vanessa Richardson? New episodes drop every Monday and Thursday, right here. No need to do anything, just stay tuned. Now enjoy the episode.
1:08 Speaker 02 This is Crime House.
1:14 Vanessa Richardson? We all want a little guidance in our lives. Whether it's a longtime mentor, a favorite teacher, or maybe even your weekly astrology chart, it's nice to have someone or something to rely on for advice when things get tough. That was especially true in the 1960s and 70s during the counterculture era. It was a chaotic time, dominated by the Vietnam War and the protests against it. To find a sense of stability, a lot of people looked to spiritual gurus. With so much uncertainty in the world, it was reassuring to put your faith in someone who offered a sense of control over the chaos.
1:58 Vanessa Richardson? But sometimes, that guidance turned out to be dangerous. Many of those gurus were self-proclaimed, and oftentimes, more interested in boosting their own fortunes than providing the support they promised. And when it came to these false prophets, none were more dangerous than Charles Manson.
2:21 Vanessa Richardson? Charles promised his followers the world. As long as they did what he said, they'd be rewarded with eternal happiness beyond their wildest dreams. His disciples were all too eager to obey. They followed his every order without question, even if it meant committing murder.
2:54 Vanessa Richardson? The human mind is fascinating. It controls how we think, how we feel, how we love, and how we hate. And sometimes the mind drives us to do something truly unspeakable. This is Killer Minds, formerly known as Mind of a Serial Killer, a Crime House original. Every Monday and Thursday, we'll be taking deep dives into the minds of history's most notorious serial killers and murderers. The show is still the same, the name just changed. And if you're interested in more true crime stories from this week in history, check out Crime House the show. Every episode covers multiple cases unified by the same theme, so every week you get something a little different.
3:39 Vanessa Richardson? At Crime House, we want to express our gratitude to you, our community, for making this possible. Please support us by rating, reviewing, and following Killer Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly matters. And to enhance your Killer Minds listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode ad-free, and instead of having to wait for each episode of a two-part series, you'll get access to both at once, plus exciting Crime House bonus content. I'm Vanessa Richardson.
4:14 Tristin Engels? And I'm Dr. Tristin Engels. As Vanessa takes you through our subject's stories, I'll be helping her analyze what drove them to commit their crimes, as we try to understand how someone can do such horrible things.
4:27 Vanessa Richardson? This is the first of two episodes on Charles Manson. Some call him a cult leader, some call him a serial killer. Some wonder if he can even be considered a killer at all. Because even though he went to prison for murder, Charles didn't deliver the fatal blow to any of his victims. His followers were his weapon of choice. In today's episode, we'll dig into Charles' early life and the circumstances that led him to form the notorious Manson Family Cult. Next time, we'll follow Charles' desperate search for purpose, his descent into madness, and the tragic murders that still haunt society today.
5:12 Vanessa Richardson? And as always, we'll be asking the question, "What makes a killer?"
5:24 Vanessa Richardson? From the moment he was born on November 12th, 1934, Charles Manson's life was driven by deception. His birth certificate listed Kathleen and William Manson as his parents. But for years, Charles had no idea that William wasn't his father. That honor most likely belonged to a con artist named Colonel Scott. Colonel was Scott's given first name. But if people assumed he was in the Army, he didn't bother correcting them. That's how he caught Kathleen Maddox's attention at a dance club in Ironton, Ohio. He was 23, she was just 15.
6:09 Vanessa Richardson? Kathleen was charmed by the older man she assumed was a military officer. So when she discovered she was pregnant sometime in the spring of 1934, Kathleen had no reason to doubt the Colonel when he said he was being called away on duty. He promised he'd be back as soon as he could, but she never heard from him again.
6:33 Vanessa Richardson? After a few months, Kathleen finally realized she'd been duped, and now she needed to find someone to help raise her soon-to-be newborn baby. That's when William Manson, who worked for a dry cleaning business, entered the picture. It's not really clear how the two of them met, but by the time Charles was born on November 12th, 1934, Kathleen and William were married. However, it doesn't seem either of them was all that interested in parenting. William wasn't around much, and neither was Kathleen. Most days, she dropped Charles off with her mom so she could go out drinking with her brother.
7:14 Tristin Engels? Let's discuss the impact of Charles's early childhood. Kathleen was a minor, so her judgment, reasoning, impulsiveness, decision-making, even emotional regulation is impaired because she did not have a fully-developed frontal lobe. This also affects her ability to cope appropriately with the demands of being a new mother, not to mention any postpartum effects she may have had. And given that Charles's father conned his mother, she may have some conscious or unconscious resentment that she projected onto Charles as a result. Her seemingly desperate and impulsive decision to marry William
7:54 Tristin Engels? appears to be driven by more societal pressures on unwed mothers back then, not necessarily a marriage that was built on love. And Charles later learning that William is not his biological father will more likely than not affect his sense of self-worth, his identity, and his trust. Kathleen abandoning Charles to go drinking indicates she may have an alcohol use disorder, and I also wonder if she drank while she was pregnant. That could have caused a prenatal injury, and if so, would warrant further exploration to understand Charles's development.
8:31 Tristin Engels? Then there's the layer of Kathleen and William's disinterest in being parents. The effects of emotionally absent parents on children is well documented. Those children tend to have more difficulty with trust, with self-esteem, and forming healthy relationships. And when you compound that with the abandonment, and that William wasn't his biological father, that is pretty profound. Nurture is critical for a child's development. And if their immediate caregivers aren't providing that or reinforcing a healthy development, that child is at risk of exhibiting poor emotional regulation later on. They have an increase in academic struggles, behavioral deficits, and developmental delays.
9:15 Vanessa Richardson? So even if Charles's grandmother was a nurturing guardian, what kind of impact does it have on a child when they can tell their parents aren't that interested in raising them?
9:25 Tristin Engels? It's a really good question. Well, statistically, if a child has emotionally absent parents, but they have at least one constant loving and nurturing presence, like a grandmother, for example, they are more likely to be resilient and overcome those statistical odds that I'd mentioned. And that's why there's so many adult children of emotionally absent parents who are high-functioning. They are breaking generational cycles. And they have learned to have healthy attachments as adults. Of course, this all depends on a number of factors, such as when that nurturing presence entered their life, how long they remained in their life, how available they were to them, as well as other things. But the fact remains
10:10 Tristin Engels? that children will recognize that their parents are emotionally absent at some point, and there is a likelihood that there will be some resentment or anger.
10:19 Vanessa Richardson? With all this going on, it didn't take Kathleen and William long to realize they weren't right for each other. Within two and a half years, they were divorced. After that, Kathleen turned to petty crime to get by. And on August 1, 1939, when Charles was almost five, she was arrested after an unsuccessful robbery. Kathleen spent the next few years behind bars while young Charles was given to his aunt, uncle, and cousin, who lived near the West Virginia prison where she was incarcerated.
10:53 Tristin Engels? And this is what I meant about those other variables that affect resiliency. If his grandmother was a constant source of nurturance and affection, then taking him away from her and passing him around through different relatives like that really does reduce his ability to gain that resiliency.
11:11 Vanessa Richardson? Mm-hmm. And it was a strict household on top of that. And Charles was frequently punished for breaking the rules. And he didn't have it much easier at school. He was small for his age and prone to mischief. That meant he drew the attention of bullies and received discipline from his teachers. It was a lot for a young boy to handle on his own. So when Kathleen was released from prison in 1942, eight-year-old Charles was over the moon. But after a short period of good behavior from both of them, things went south. Kathleen had a hard time staying on the straight and narrow, and Charles took his cues from her.
11:53 Vanessa Richardson? He stopped going to school and started stealing from local shops. By the time Kathleen finally decided to get her life on track in 1943, she couldn't control her son anymore. In 1947, when Charles was 12, she sent him to a reform school in Terre Haute, Indiana, called the Javoe School for Boys. Predictably, things didn't go well. Within 10 months, Charles had run away multiple times. He alternated between going back to his family and living on his own, stealing to get by. When he inevitably got caught, he was sent to even stricter institutions.
12:36 Vanessa Richardson? In 1949, at 13 years old, Charles found himself at a place called the Indiana Boys School. And that's when his life became a living hell.
12:50 Vanessa Richardson? It wasn't like things had been easy until this point. But at the Indiana Boys School, things took a tragically dark turn. According to Charles, he was sexually assaulted by some of his fellow students. And to make a horrifying situation even worse, it was apparently encouraged by a staff member.
13:10 Tristin Engels? Oh, wow. There's a lot to unpack here. So until this point, Charles has had no real stability or security in his life, starting from a very young age, not to mention the many broken attachments he's had until this point. His mother was seemingly grooming him into a career criminal, and then once again abandoned him, this time to a reform school, because she could no longer control what she herself had actually helped to create. Now, at this boys' school, he continues to lack any control over his life. And once again, the adults that should be protecting him aren't, and instead are encouraging crimes against him.
13:54 Tristin Engels? And this, I believe, greatly impacted his ability to empathize with others, or rather, his lack of ability to do that, and why he only forms attachments to others if he has something to gain from them. And those attachments will remain superficial. He is learning more versatile ways to be a criminal. And more importantly, this really shapes who he is to become. His lack of control is going to be overcompensated by a need to always be in control of everyone and everything around him, which we will definitely be getting into in detail as you take us through his story.
14:31 Vanessa Richardson? Now, it is important to note that Charles Manson was a notorious liar. And as author Jeff Gwynn pointed out in "The Life and Times of Charles Manson", it's possible he was not being entirely truthful about the situation. But based on his later actions, it does seem like Charles experienced some kind of sexual abuse at the Indiana Boys School. So it wasn't surprising that Charles constantly tried to run away to the tune of 18 times over the course of three years. And in February 1951, when Charles was 16, he got away from the Indiana Boys School for good.
15:12 Vanessa Richardson? He and a couple other kids stole a car and decided to take it for a multi-state joyride, which got him in trouble with the federal authorities. Instead of sending Charles back to Indiana, he was placed in the federal system. First at a facility called the National Training School in Washington DC, and then the Natural Bridge Honor Camp in Virginia. This time, he was the one attacking others. In January 1952, Charles was caught sexually assaulting another boy while holding a blade to his throat.
15:50 Tristin Engels? And this is how I mentioned, we're starting to see his overcompensation for years of feeling out of control of his life. He is ensuring he has all the power and control now, and control is what sexual assault is motivated by.
16:05 Vanessa Richardson? After that, he was transferred to a high-security reform institution. With nowhere left to go, it seems like Charles realized he had to turn things around, or at least pretend he did. He became such a model student that he was released early in 1954.
16:25 Tristin Engels? Let's talk about this alleged reformation and why it's not genuine. By now, Charles has met the criteria for conduct disorder, which is a precursor to antisocial personality disorder. Since he's not yet 18, he cannot be given a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder, but he is showing signs already of juvenile psychopathy. Criminality runs in the family. His biological father was arguably very cunning, charming, and manipulative, and was actually using stolen valor to con Charles's mother, Kathleen.
17:02 Tristin Engels? Kathleen also has a criminal history, one that took her from her son's life for a number of years. And a family history of criminality is important for us to look at because it shows there could be a genetic component for mental illness or psychopathy. But also, it gives insight into learned behaviors. People who are abusive and manipulative are taught those behaviors. And Charles clearly had that influence and exposure with his mother and the institutions that he had been housed in. Charles learned how to mirror others and what they want in order to get results, making it more likely than not that his reformation is not genuine.
17:43 Tristin Engels? Now, that's not to say that there isn't a possibility for juveniles to be successfully reformed, because that can certainly be the case. But given what I just outlined with Charles, his "model behavior" definitely was a con in and of itself. It was another way to remain in control of how others see him and how quickly he can get released.
18:05 Vanessa Richardson? Whether or not Charles' improved behavior was for real, he actually kept it up after his release. Now 19 years old, Charles moved to McMack in West Virginia, bouncing between his family there. Charles was well behaved. He got a job mucking out stables at a horse track and even met a girl, Rosalie Willis. They quickly started going steady, and on January 13, 1955, they got married. Charles and Rosalie settled into a comfortable life together. He made a few friends and even learned guitar. It wasn't long before Rosalie was expecting their first child. But adding to their family was expensive,
18:50 Vanessa Richardson? and Charles was struggling to make ends meet. So he turned to what he did best: stealing. He mostly stole cars and sold them in other states. But the extra money wasn't enough to give Charles the life he wanted. By the summer of 1955, he'd had enough of West Virginia. He wanted to go west to California. His mother Kathleen had moved there and Charles figured he and Rosalie could stay with her. So he stole another car and they headed to Los Angeles to move in with Kathleen. Charles kept driving the vehicle around for months after their arrival.
19:30 Vanessa Richardson? But in September 1955, a cop ran his plate and realized it was stolen. Charles was terrified of being locked up. The second he got the chance, he and Rosalie skipped town. They ended up in Indianapolis where Rosalie gave birth to Charles Manson Jr. on April 10th, 1956. But the new parents didn't have much time to enjoy their new baby. Just four days later, the cops caught up to them and Charles was dragged back to California. And this time, there was no escaping.
20:15 Speaker 03 Greetings from Breeze Airways, your hometown carrier for non-stop flights from Richmond to Sarasota, Bradenton, and more. Your getaway to Florida's west coast is closer than you think. Breeze makes it easy to snag a getaway with non-stop lights, flexible change policies, and a seriously nice onboard experience. Enjoy premium seating with Breeze Ascent, plus high-speed Wi-Fi and tasty snacks. Book today at flybreeze.com. Breeze Airways, seriously nice. In partnership with Visit Sarasota.
20:46 Speaker 02 Natalie Jones disappeared July 4th, 2020. Three months later, her body was found, and that is where the mystery really begins.
20:55 Speaker 04 There's nothing to indicate that she was shot, stabbed, or anything of that sort. There's a lot of people that...
21:00 Speaker 05 Had motive to do something. We want to paint Natalie as this angel. It's not all angelic.
21:08 Speaker 02 I'm your host, Sean Kite, and this is The Truth About Natalie. Listen and subscribe now wherever you get your podcasts.
21:18 Vanessa Richardson? In April 1956, 21-year-old Charles Manson was arrested after trying to evade car theft charges. He was sentenced to three years at Terminal Island Penitentiary in San Pedro, California, just a few miles south of LA. Meanwhile, his wife Rosalie and their newborn baby returned to California and moved back in with Charles' mom so they could be nearby. At Terminal Island, Charles interacted with all sorts of convicts. Unlike his time at reform school, though, he didn't need to worry about asserting his dominance over them. If he didn't start any trouble, there wouldn't be any trouble.
22:01 Vanessa Richardson? Instead, he decided to use his time to learn from his fellow convicts, specifically the pimps. They told Charles how they recruited vulnerable young women, then controlled them by separating them from their families. To make sure the women didn't try to leave, the pimps would give them just the right mixture of love bombing and fear. Most people would find that advice horrifying. Charles found it fascinating.
22:31 Tristin Engels? Yeah, I would expect he would. His fascination in controlling sex workers really speaks to what I've already been really touching on with Charles. He's overcompensating for a life of feeling no control to ensure he has a life where he is in full control. And this includes being in total control of others. Charles has never really experienced loyalty.
22:54 Tristin Engels? To the degree that most people do in their family, because he's never really experienced a sense of belonging or family in the traditional sense. He also learned that no one was willing to protect him when he was undergoing abuse in the various institutions he had been in. And it certainly sounds like no one really protected the people that he abused in return. So now, as an adult, he's wanting to expand on this control. As we know, he's looking to form a devoted chosen family, or what would soon become a cult, and that, he feels, will always remain loyal, prove their loyalty, and whom he can maintain control over by isolating them and expecting total obedience.
23:36 Vanessa Richardson? Do you think there's actually some part of him that has a desire to be a twisted sort of provider for them?
23:42 Tristin Engels? In a sense, yes, but not because he genuinely cares about them as people. Charles longs to be the one who is provided for in every sense of the word. So he cares more about their belief that he is their provider, only because of what he'll gain in return.
23:59 Vanessa Richardson? But there were some things in life Charles couldn't control. At first, Rosalie would bring Charles Jr. with her to visit the prison every week. Then, about a year into Charles' sentence, she stopped showing up. Rosalie had met someone else and was moving on.
24:19 Vanessa Richardson? In June 1957, she and Charles were officially divorced. After that, Rosalie and the baby were completely out of his life.
24:28 Tristin Engels? And we've talked about just a moment ago about how he's really never had a sense of belonging or loyalty or family. This felt like another abandonment to him, because this was probably the first time he might have actually felt some semblance of that. And now it's gone.
24:43 Vanessa Richardson? Yeah, they had given Charles a sense of purpose. But now that they were gone, he needed to find a new direction in his life. It came in the form of a self-help guru named Dale Carnegie, the author of How to Win Friends and Influence People. Carnegie offered self-improvement classes at Terminal Island, and Charles was allowed to join one. He took to it like a fish to water. Carnegie's book contained advice that would become especially important to Charles. He specifically latched on to the phrase, "Let the other fellow feel that the idea is his."
25:22 Vanessa Richardson? The course seemed to spark new life in Charles. Like his final stint in reform school, he became a model inmate. And on September 30th, 1958, he was released early for good behavior. Once again, he had the opportunity to take his life in any direction. But he couldn't seem to hold down a job. He was too focused on trying to become a pimp. It didn't go well. After his release, he stayed in LA and managed to recruit a couple young women. But he didn't follow his prison mentor's advice because he let them stay in touch with their families. Almost immediately, one of the women's fathers complained about Charles to the police.
26:09 Vanessa Richardson? Charles managed to talk his way out of it, and it wasn't long before he found himself in more hot water. On May 1st, 1959, 24-year-old Charles got caught after he stole a US Treasury check from a mailbox and tried to cash it. He was only able to avoid jail time because one of his few remaining sex workers pretended to be pregnant with his child. And they convinced Charles' parole officer to intervene. Instead, he got a 10-year suspended sentence that let him remain a free man.
26:47 Vanessa Richardson? But in what had now become a predictable pattern, Charles didn't use the opportunity to better his life. Instead, he dug in further, continuing to work as a pimp and stealing cars. However, Charles wasn't exactly a criminal mastermind. It didn't take long for the authorities to catch on to him, and he was arrested barely a year after being released from Terminal Island. His suspended sentence was revoked, and he was sent to a prison off the coast of Washington State to serve out the rest of his time. Thirteen months after his release from Terminal Island, 25-year-old Charles was arrested again.
27:28 Tristin Engels? Hmm. Let's discuss why Charles does not seem to learn from past mistakes. And there's a number of possibilities for this. But since Charles has been engaging in theft at a young age, it's possible that part of this is that he struggles with an impulse control disorder, like kleptomania. That could be a condition on its own, but more often, it is a symptom of something else, such as antisocial personality disorder. Individuals who have antisocial personality disorder or have such a severe case of it that it rises to psychopathy have a need for stimulation as well as impulse control deficits, and they are not deterred by consequences.
28:11 Tristin Engels? He is also around an age where, should he have an undiagnosed severe mental illness, like schizophrenia or bipolar, those symptoms would begin to become more prominent. But there is also a learned pattern of criminality here from a young age that I touched on earlier. Not only has he learned that stealing cars and trafficking women is fast and easy money, but he's also been in and out of institutions since he was young, and that can create a criminal cycle. Most individuals who are in and out of institutions suffer serious setbacks financially and in meeting their basic needs when they're released. It can be very difficult for them to find work, but also find work that pays them enough
28:55 Tristin Engels? to get their own place, provide for their needs, pay off debts, let alone save any money. And they definitely have to work longer and harder for less money than what their criminal career is likely provided, making traditional work an unattractive option if they feel desperate. After all, the biggest risk for recidivism or reoffending is their inability to meet their basic needs. And Charles was struggling to hold down a job. So with Charles, it's likely a combination of biological, psychological, and social deficits that cause him to reoffend and not learn from his mistakes.
29:36 Vanessa Richardson? Well, one thing was for sure. Charles treated this last incarceration as another learning opportunity. This time, he dove into the Church of Scientology, which had been founded just a few years earlier. But like the Dale Carnegie classes, Charles saw it less as an opportunity for self-improvement and more as a tool for manipulation. He thought he could use the tenets of Scientology to appeal to potential sex work recruits, but he also used his new religion to placate the prison's staff. They liked it when inmates showed a positive attitude and were encouraged by Charles' interest in Scientology. Around this time, Charles also became interested in a science fiction book
30:21 Vanessa Richardson? called Stranger in a Strange Land. It's about a man raised on Mars who starts his own religion on Earth. The character also uses his mind to destroy his enemies, engages in group sex, and becomes an immortal spirit. These ideas, particularly the group sex, would become a major factor in Charles' ideology down the road.
30:46 Tristin Engels? I want to point out something you said, Vanessa, that's really interesting regarding the book Stranger in a Strange Land. I've not personally read this book, but given what you described, I can see why he was so drawn to it. A person's interest in a story helps psychologists identify the concept of the hero's journey. And that's important because essentially that is a projection of their core values, identity, and subconscious desires. Based on his interest in this book, it highlights how Charles has never felt like he belonged anywhere, which we've already covered, but it also shows that he lacked value and resonated with this book as a result. In the book, the man from Mars
31:31 Tristin Engels? discovered a sense of purpose and belonging on Earth by teaching people a new religion. And then there's his interest in Scientology. This has taught him how people find a sense of belonging and purpose and acceptance through religion. The other interesting part of that was when you said the character uses his mind to destroy his enemies, much like his interest in how to win friends and influence people. It shows that Charles has an unconscious desire to have connection, but also full control of those connections, to avoid any kind of rejection. He also has a fixation on mind control, and if he begins to truly believe in this
32:12 Tristin Engels? concept, he could form a grandiose delusion regarding mind control, and that could indicate signs of psychosis.
32:20 Vanessa Richardson? In addition to learning to manipulate people, Charles used his time in prison to rekindle the guitar hobby he'd started back in West Virginia. One of the prison's most notorious convicts, former outlaw Alvin "Creepy" Carpus, was also a talented musician, and he was happy to give Charles lessons, although he didn't think his new student was very good. But the biggest musical influence on Charles during this time was The Beatles. After hearing them on the radio, Charles became obsessed with becoming a famous musician himself. Until now, music had always been a fun hobby. Now, it was his life's calling.
33:00 Tristin Engels? His interest in becoming a famous musician after hearing The Beatles was likely due to the fact that The Beatles had a massive cult following, particularly with young women.
33:12 Vanessa Richardson? Charles' obsession with music helped him stay out of trouble, though, and on March 21, 1967, he was released early. Left with nowhere to go, he called a former prisoner he'd been friendly with. He invited 32-year-old Charles to come stay with him in Berkeley, California, in the San Francisco Bay Area. As one of the hippie movement's hotspots, it was the ideal place for an aspiring musician like Charles to hone his craft. But to Charles Manson, the Bay Area must have seemed like another planet.
33:49 Vanessa Richardson? Until this point, he'd spent over half his life and almost all of his adult years in some kind of correctional facility. Now, he was set loose in the streets of Berkeley, the epicenter of the counterculture revolution that was sweeping the nation. It was home to people from all walks of life, from the Black Panthers to student protests at the University of California, to people just looking to express themselves freely. That included aspiring musicians like Charles, which presented a problem. Every street corner was claimed, and every club was booked, so making a living playing guitar wasn't going to be easy.
34:34 Vanessa Richardson? And Charles wasn't interested in working a typical blue-collar job in the meantime. He couldn't crash on his friend's couch forever, though, so if Charles was gonna make his dreams come true, he needed to find somewhere to stay long-term that didn't require him to pay rent. And thanks to what he'd learned in prison, he knew exactly how to do it.
35:06 Vanessa Richardson? In March of 1967, 32-year-old Charles Manson arrived in Berkeley, California with dreams of becoming a famous musician. But the reality of that dream quickly set in. If Charles was gonna stick around, he needed somewhere to stay that wasn't a fellow ex-convict's couch. And it wasn't long before he found the perfect opportunity. Shortly after arriving in Berkeley, Charles was on the University of California's campus when he noticed someone standing out in the crowd, a 23-year-old assistant librarian named Mary Brunner. Unlike most of the people in Berkeley, Mary was very conservative, and she dressed like
35:51 Vanessa Richardson? it. Charles sensed she was lonely in the sea of hippies, and they struck up a conversation. That was all Charles needed to sink his hooks into her.
36:04 Vanessa Richardson? One of Charles Manson's enduring mysteries is how he convinced people to do such awful things for him. But when it came to Mary Brunner, all he had to do was be nice to her. He sang her some songs, complimented her dog, connected with her about the environment. He made her feel seen. And when he mentioned he didn't have anywhere to stay at the moment, she was happy to put him up for a few nights. But Charles had no intention of leaving. It wasn't long before he and Mary were sleeping together, and he'd moved in for good. Charles wasn't really interested in a traditional relationship, though. He frequently brought
36:47 Vanessa Richardson? other girls over to Mary's apartment, and she tolerated it. As long as Charles still made her feel special, Mary turned a blind eye.
36:57 Tristin Engels? This is really showcasing how manipulative and parasitic Charles has learned to become, both of which are very good signs and traits of psychopathy. Like you shared, Charles saw Mary and recognized quickly that she likely did not feel like she fit in. As a conservative woman among free spirited hippies, she had a hard time identifying with the culture and making friends and connections, and was therefore lonely and insecure. And it appears he was right, because like you said, all it took was for him to be attentive and nice to her. These are predatory and grooming behaviors. A lot of these behaviors are learned, most of which are learned and honed while in prison, for him. And I think it's also
37:40 Tristin Engels? worth noting just how influential institutions can be. If you're incarcerated, and Manson was for the majority of his life, you learn that you must control your environment and the people around you to survive, not just with other inmates, but with the correctional staff as well, since they're not necessarily safe for him either, as he learned very early on. Individuals who are incarcerated had very little to do. They paid very close attention to everyone else, especially staff. And having worked in prisons myself, we were taught how to recognize this kind of manipulation and over familiarity from some of the incarcerated population, because this behavior is to be expected.
38:27 Tristin Engels? They limit tests to see what they can get away with, and in doing so, are looking for specific insecurities that they can prey upon to gain loyalty. The end goal is that they get a compromised employee or another incarcerated individual, one who could smuggle and contraband, for example. And then, once that individual has done it once, they're trapped in that cycle, or they lose their jobs and possibly face their own set of legal challenges. So, this is exactly the tactics that Charles is using here on Mary. He's preying on her insecurities, and he's looking to entrap her into a cycle, one that makes it hard for her to leave.
39:06 Vanessa Richardson? And Charles loved the attention he got from all the various women he brought back to the apartment. But that feeling was fleeting. As soon as his visitors went home, it was just him and Mary again. Although she certainly doted on him, it wasn't enough. He wanted that feeling of overwhelming adoration permanently. To make that happen, he headed across the bay to San Francisco's Hate Ashbury District. Charles loved going to the "hate," as it was known. It was a hippie neighborhood with easy access to sex, drugs, and plenty of new age thinking. While the district had its fair share of opportunities for street musicians like him, that's not what brought Charles there.
39:50 Vanessa Richardson? He liked hate because it was a hotspot for street preachers. Charles was fascinated by the hold some of these gurus had on their followers. And after everything he'd learned in prison, he felt like he could build a flock of his own. So he found an open stretch of sidewalk and started preaching. A lot of it was the same hippie philosophy all the others were spouting: self-love, limitless possibility, new age spirituality, that sort of thing. But Charles delivered it better than anyone else. It wasn't long before his sermons attracted a devoted audience. Along with the attention he was getting,
40:34 Vanessa Richardson? Charles enjoyed the easy access to drugs in the hate, particularly LSD. As his mind became increasingly divorced from reality, he started to equate himself with none other than Jesus Christ. He thought that if he could get a few devoted followers, they could recruit more exponentially, just like the apostles did for Jesus.
40:58 Tristin Engels? So why was Charles so obsessed with creating a group of devoted followers? I think we've really touched on that. You know, his seeking belonging, he's seeking acceptance, purpose, security, and he definitely has a low sense of self-worth that he's trying to overcompensate for. But at the same time, because these are such critical unmet needs that he's had since childhood, he's very successful in identifying and exploiting the same needs out of vulnerable women through manipulation, through isolation and drug addiction. The more he can keep them under the influence, the more he can distort their reality and perceptions and keep them dependent on him to supply not just the addiction, but their own sense of belonging.
41:43 Tristin Engels? He wants to control their minds, and using religion makes it easier to make his following feel a part of something important. And that's why he's drawn to becoming a guru. If he can use fear tactics to get them to believe in him without questioning his teachings, then he can indoctrinate, and he can brainwash them.
42:05 Vanessa Richardson? With the holidays coming up, my schedule gets pretty chaotic. Between work, traveling to see family, grocery runs, and late-night errands, my house spends a lot more time empty. A neighbor down the street actually had someone break in a few weeks ago. No joke. And that was the exact moment I decided I needed real protection for my kids and my home. I love SimpliSafe because it doesn't just react to a crime after the damage is done. It prevents it. SimpliSafe uses smart, AI-powered cameras that detect suspicious activity and alert a live, US-based agent right away. In under 30 seconds, that agent can actually speak live through the outdoor camera to warn an intruder off while... Instantly contacting 911 if necessary. Leaving home without that constant nagging worry is priceless. And now is the absolute best time to secure your space.
42:50 Vanessa Richardson? I've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer my listeners their biggest savings of the year. Seventy percent off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/serialkillers. That's simplisafe.com/serialkillers. And when you order, write in Serial Killers and Murderous Minds at checkout. It tells them we sent you and it really helps the show. SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time. Having timeless staples in your wardrobe that you can rely on for any occasion is an absolute game changer. And giving someone else that gift is even better. That's why Quince is my top choice for holiday shopping. I'm constantly wearing my Quince cashmere mock neck sweater in burgundy. I wore it to a cozy holiday dinner party with friends and it was so soft and stylish,
43:35 Vanessa Richardson? I wish it had been gifted to me. Quince's signature cashmere sweaters start at an unbeatable $50. And their stunning 14 karat gold earrings and plush down outerwear are guaranteed crowd pleasers. Beyond clothing, Quince carries a massive range of options, including chef-grade cookware, buttery leather bags, and five-star luggage for all your upcoming trips. By partnering directly with ethical manufacturers and cutting out traditional middlemen, Quince offers luxury products at prices 50 to 80% less than high-end competitors. Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the
44:21 Vanessa Richardson? UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Serial Killers and Murderous Minds. It's the best way to support the show.
44:31 Vanessa Richardson? In May of 1967, 32-year-old Charles gained his first disciple, Lynette Frome, an 18-year-old runaway he met on a trip to Venice Beach. Like with Mary Brunner, Charles made Lynette feel loved and appreciated. He gave her the meaning she was searching for, and she was eager to accompany him back to Berkeley.
44:56 Vanessa Richardson? Lynette moved in with Charles and Mary, and by the end of the summer, they were joined by two women named Patricia Crenwinkle and Susan Atkins. But it wasn't all love and sunshine. Between the moments of bliss, Charles was always looking to test his followers' devotion. Sometimes, he made them stand in front of a tree while Charles threw knives around them. He wanted to see if they would trust him with their lives, and they did. That wasn't enough for him, though. He needed their focus on him at all times. If Charles felt like someone's attention was drifting during one of his sermons, he could get physically violent.
45:39 Vanessa Richardson? By the end of the summer, Charles may have decided he needed more discipline in the group. To him, that meant recruiting some men as well. Sometime in the fall of 1967, he won over a guy named Bruce Davis. Bruce looked up to Charles just like the others did and was desperate to become his right-hand man. Charles was happy to have a follower who was that devoted to him, and for the moment, the group he called "The Manson Family" felt complete.
46:13 Tristin Engels? Let's discuss why he would want men to join the family, because that's a deviation so far, right?
46:18 Vanessa Richardson? Yeah.
46:19 Tristin Engels? Charles, like we've talked about, you know, he wants full devotion from his followers, and he's starting to notice that he was losing their interest. And if he did, he would become violent towards them. And if we recall that violence and abuse is a learned behavior, and in prison, Charles learned from other pimps how they were able to recruit and maintain obedience from women. And it's no secret that even if women volunteer to do sex work, if they have a pimp, there is inevitably, almost always, some form of force or coercion. Charles is using violence and psychologically coercive techniques to do the same. So when he starts to notice that women are getting bored
47:04 Tristin Engels? or their attention is... Drifting and his presence was not enough to maintain the discipline, having more men certainly would. Not only could he use them to keep the women obedient, but if they were ever to get curious about the affections of a man other than Charles, and there are men in his family, they are more likely to explore that within the family than leave the family altogether. And that fear is far greater to Charles than anything else.
47:36 Vanessa Richardson? Well, now that Charles had his dedicated group of acolytes, he decided it was time to move on from the Bay Area. Although being a spiritual guru was nice, he still held on to his dreams of becoming a professional musician. To do that, he had to be where the action was, Los Angeles. So in November 1967, he gathered the family and they drove down to LA in an old school bus. It turned out his old prison mentor who'd taught Charles guitar was well-connected in the music scene. He told Charles to seek out an executive at Universal Music named Gary Stromberg. Stromberg actually agreed to see him and liked Charles' music enough to set up a studio session.
48:22 Vanessa Richardson? But once he got into the booth, Charles was out of his depth. Stromberg suggested he work on his music some more and they could try again another time. That meant the Manson family needed somewhere to stay. They crashed at a few places in Topanga Canyon, LA's hippie hotspot. A lot of musicians lived there and Charles spent a lot of time trying to connect with them. But they didn't think he was all that talented and they brushed him off. Charles didn't take it well. He took out his frustrations on his followers, sometimes through physical abuse. But his hold over them remained powerful and they refused to abandon him while he pursued his dreams.
49:07 Tristin Engels? It's hard to imagine, from the outside looking in, that anyone would want to remain loyal to Charles when he is violent and he would take out frustrations on them.
49:15 Vanessa Richardson? Yeah.
49:16 Tristin Engels? So why do they continue to stick with him? Aside from how we've already established that he's a master at manipulation, we also need to think about the abuse cycles that occur, especially with an intimate partner violence. The abuser vacillates between using affection and being loving with being abusive. The abuser isolates their partner and makes them dependent on them for their physical and emotional needs, making it harder for the victim to leave. This is no different, only it's in a group, which is arguably even more manipulative because of a hive mentality or group polarization and group think. It's hard to deconstruct the manipulation of one person, especially when they are surrounded by an entire group
50:01 Tristin Engels? who are lacking insight into the manipulation themselves. So imagine you start to question things. A group of devotees will quickly share that information and the pressure to concede or face total alienation or even retaliation is high. And that's terrifying, especially for vulnerable people who have no family or nowhere to go and nowhere else that they feel they belong.
50:26 Vanessa Richardson? Even though Charles had plenty of loyal followers at this point, he decided he wanted to grow the family even more. He used the new environment to recruit more people, including 18-year-old Paul Watkins, the family's second male recruit, Ruth Ann Morehouse, a girl who Charles had been trying to get to join them for a while, and DeeDee Lansbury, actress Angela Lansbury's teenage daughter. By early 1968, there were almost 20 people in the Manson family. Money wasn't a huge concern for them. They had plenty of places to stay and there were so many of them, they could scrounge up enough from panhandling to get by.
51:09 Vanessa Richardson? With this many people at his disposal, Charles was more interested in using his followers to help him make connections. He liked to send the girls into the city to make friends with anyone who could introduce him to the right people. And sometime in the spring of 1968, it paid off when a couple of them befriended Dennis Wilson, the drummer of the Beach Boys. They introduced him to Charles, who wormed his way into Dennis's good graces. Within a few days, the entire Manson family was getting comfortable at Dennis's large estate on Sunset Boulevard. Dennis loved Charles. He wasn't interested in joining the family,
51:53 Vanessa Richardson? but he was more than happy to introduce Charles to a few friends in the music business. One of them was a young producer named Terry Melcher. Terry was a verified hitmaker. Signing with him was almost a guaranteed success. But even though Charles came highly recommended to Terry, he didn't just sign people as a favor, and Terry wasn't interested in Charles's music. Dennis Wilson wasn't much of a resource anymore either. After a few months, he'd started to tire of the family's constant presence. What began as a fun novelty had become an exhausting chore. Charles was extremely demanding and too much to deal with.
52:37 Vanessa Richardson? When Dennis's lease ended later that summer, he moved into a smaller place that couldn't accommodate the Manson family. Charles and his followers were back on their own, and his dreams of becoming a musician seemed farther away than ever.
52:53 Tristin Engels? This isn't the first time that Charles has faced rejection in the music industry, and it hasn't derailed him so far. But Dennis rejecting him, I imagine, did not go over well, especially if that rejection was witnessed by his family. Part of why he's so successful in maintaining their loyalty and devotion is he continues to maintain an image that doesn't appear questioned by anyone. Now you have an influential musician who... Seemingly has a fresh perspective of Charles and his family and how he demanding he can be. And if he was going to be reactive to his rejection, it was likely because of the fear that Dennis's feelings about him might influence his family and fracture everything he's built.
53:34 Tristin Engels? In addition to obvious, the grandiose dreams of becoming a big musician.
53:40 Vanessa Richardson? Dr. Ankles, do people like Charles tend to make excuses in situations like this? Are they capable of introspection and really understanding why someone's upset with them?
53:51 Tristin Engels? I don't think someone like Charles is capable of introspection or accountability. In fact, I don't think he's aware that anything he is doing is wrong. In situations like this, I would expect Charles to get angered and project that anger on to the rejector. He responds with violence. It's a coercive tactic that he's used to maintain obedience and avoidance conditioning, meaning that he reacts like this with individuals because they're less likely to do whatever it was in the first place that caused that reaction. So he's conditioning them to avoid questioning him, to avoid rejecting him.
54:29 Vanessa Richardson? However, Charles felt about getting kicked out of Dennis's place, he was certainly adaptable. He moved the family into Spawn Ranch, an old Western movie set outside of LA that had fallen into disrepair. In exchange for helping fix up the place, the ranch's elderly owner let them stay in the various shacks around the property for free. Away from the hustle and bustle of the city, Charles was able to reassert control over the family. Dennis Wilson's house had been full of distractions. Now that they were more isolated out in the country, he could strengthen the hypnotic hold he had over his followers. He wanted more than a family. He wanted a cult.
55:26 Vanessa Richardson? Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time for the conclusion of our series on Charles Manson and the terrifying murders he called Helter Skelter.
55:36 Tristin Engels? Killer Minds is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media at Crime House. And don't forget to rate, review, and follow Killer Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference.
55:58 Vanessa Richardson? And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Killer Minds ad-free, along with early access to each thrilling two-part series and exciting bonus content. Killer Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson, and Dr. Tristin Engels, and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Killer Minds team: Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Laurie Marinelli, Natalie Pritzowski, Sarah Kamp, and Sheila Patterson. Of the many sources we used when researching this episode, the one we found the most credible and helpful
56:41 Vanessa Richardson? was "The Life and Times of Charles Manson" by Jeff Gwynn. Thank you for listening.
56:51 Vanessa Richardson? If you're looking for your next podcast, check out What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.
Previous Joel the Ripper: Joel Rifkin 2 Next MURDEROUS MINDS: Charles Manson & The Manson Family Cult Pt. 2 Page updated November 3, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated