MURDEROUS MINDS: The Disappearance of Natalee Holloway Pt. 2

He lied. He evaded justice. Then, five years to the day after Natalee Holloway disappeared, Joran van der Sloot killed again. In Part 2, we uncover how his obsession with power and control led to the murder of Stephany Flores—and we unpack the confession that finally exposed him. Killer Minds is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. For ad-free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to Crime House+ on Apple Podcasts. Don’t miss out on all things Killer Minds! Instagram: @killerminds https://www.instagram.com/killerminds/ | @Crimehouse https://www.instagram.com/crimehouse/ TikTok: @Crimehouse https://www.tiktok.com/@crimehouse Facebook: @crimehousestudios https://www.facebook.com/crimehousestudios X: @crimehousemedia https://x.com/crimehousemedia YouTube: @crimehousestudios https://www.youtube.com/@crimehousestudios

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Hi, everyone. Before today's episode, there's another show I want to tell you about. It's called What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Plus, Connor's infectious energy that'll make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on earth. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  This is Crime House.

• 0:42Vanessa Richardson?

  Some people never change. Even when they know they're headed down a dark path, they lack the ability, or desire, to adjust their behavior. Joran van der Sloot was definitely one of those people. As a teenager, he started lying to get out of trouble, but it was a habit he never grew out of, and eventually, he used his dishonesty to hurt others, too. After Joran became a person of interest in the 2005 disappearance of Natalie Holloway, he told lie after lie about what happened the night she went missing. And it worked. He got off scot-free. Or did he? Because Joran's ability to deceive could only take

• 1:27Vanessa Richardson?

  him so far. Eventually, he was connected to another violent crime involving a young woman, and this time, there was no talking his way out of it.

• 1:51Vanessa Richardson?

  The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate. But sometimes, it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is Killer Minds, a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.

• 2:06Tristin Engels?

  And I'm Dr. Tristin Engels. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer.

• 2:15Vanessa Richardson?

  Crime House is made possible by you. Please rate, review, and follow Killer Minds. To enhance your listening experience with ad-free, early access to each two-part series and bonus content, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. Before we get into the story, you should know it contains descriptions of sexual violence and murder. Listener discretion is advised. This is the second and final episode of our deep dive on one of the most chilling cases in true crime history: the May 2005 disappearance of Natalie Holloway and the man who later confessed to killing her, Joran van der Sloot.

• 2:57Vanessa Richardson?

  Today, we'll be focusing on Joran's life after Natalie's disappearance, how he used his infamy for financial gain, his attempt to fly under the radar when it backfired, and the horrific murder that finally brought him down.

• 3:12Tristin Engels?

  And as Vanessa takes you through the story, I'll be here talking about things like why Joran embraced his infamy, the psychology behind risk-taking, and why sometimes offenders feel relief when they're finally caught.

• 3:25Vanessa Richardson?

  And as always, we'll be asking the question, what makes a killer?

• 3:36Vanessa Richardson?

  In May 2005, the Natalie Holloway case hit the tiny Caribbean nation of Aruba like a hurricane. A pretty all-American teenage girl had gone missing while on a school trip, and the last person she was seen with was 17-year-old Joran van der Sloot. Despite intensive questioning from the Aruban police, Joran's story about what happened with Natalie kept changing. At first, he said he had dropped her off at her hotel. Then, he claimed he'd left her alone at the beach late at night. Whatever story he was spinning, there was no evidence to back it up. To most people, though, it was obvious

• 4:16Vanessa Richardson?

  that Joran had done something to Natalie. He became hated by the public, especially in Aruba, whose economy relied on tourists feeling safe and secure. So, a few days after being released from jail on September 3, 2005, Joran fled the island. He returned to his home country of the Netherlands and enrolled in a university there. It was a chance for the now 18-year-old to start over. Joran could put the Natalie Holloway case behind him and reinvent himself as a better man. But that's not what he did. Joran quickly went back to his old ways, spending most of his nights drinking and gambling.

• 4:59Tristin Engels?

  Joran defaulting to his old ways is not surprising. From a psychological standpoint, the brain loves efficiency even if it's dysfunctional. So, once a pattern is established, they become neural shortcuts and therefore familiar and easier to maintain. Change also challenges someone's identity. If Joran identifies as an affluent partier, for example, especially while away at college, then he would likely behave in ways that are consistent with his self-image. These could also be coping mechanisms now. He was, in fact, in jail for several months. He's nationally known. He disgraced the country of Aruba, and he might be trying to escape the shame of that. But let's also remember that gambling and drinking could be established addictions as well for Joran.

• 5:43Tristin Engels?

  And this alone makes this behavior exponentially more difficult to change, especially without any support or intervention. Instead, these behaviors are once again being reinforced because no one is there to set rules or boundaries. And I'm thinking that his father likely helped him to fund this lifestyle in some capacity as well because he has historically enabled this behavior even if he was not consciously aware of it.

• 6:07Vanessa Richardson?

  To feed his addiction, Joran needed a reliable income stream. Shortly after his return to the Netherlands, he started selling fake stories about his night with Natalie Holloway to the media. The case had been huge news in the Netherlands, so Joran was able to charge a lot for supposedly exclusive interviews, usually making about $25,000 a pop. His routine was often the same. He'd tell about 90% of the story the same way, then change 10% of the details to keep it fresh and new. He never outright admitted to killing Natalie. He always said she died or disappeared in some other way, like that she fell off a

• 6:49Vanessa Richardson?

  balcony after doing too much cocaine, then he hid her body in a swamp, or that he sold her to a sex trafficker. No matter what he said, Joran would always later retract his statements, after cashing the cheque, of course. And whenever the authorities did look into his story, it was quickly disproven. The media was slow to catch on to his game, though. Over the next couple of years, Joran became a constant fixture in Dutch tabloids and true crime TV shows. He seemed to enjoy the twisted celebrity status it brought him, claiming he even had groupies.

• 7:26Tristin Engels?

  This is yet another way in which Joran's lying and overall deplorable behaviour is being reinforced or rewarded. I mean, he's getting paid money, more so than any typical college student makes per year, all to capitalise off of Natalie's disappearance, and that is extremely callous. It seems like he wants to embrace his infamy, but why? And that really comes down to his personality structure. For example, individuals with narcissistic tendencies often crave attention, whether it's positive or negative. This is giving him a sense of self-importance. It allows him to inflate an otherwise fragile ego, and being seen as a villain is preferable to being insignificant in any way.

• 8:07Tristin Engels?

  And if we think about how he was raised, the only attention or reinforcement he seemingly received was when he was doing something negative. That has served him, and it continues to here. Also, antisocial personality traits include a lack of empathy, pathological lying, and the exploitation of others for financial or personal gain. He also has a pattern of thrill-seeking, and this certainly satisfies that, because now that he's no longer in Aruba, where he was monitored by the entire country, he's needing more thrills. It's also indicative of real significant emotional immaturity.

• 8:43Vanessa Richardson?

  By 2007, at age 19, Joran's behaviour still hadn't changed. In fact, his gambling had gotten worse. And one night that year, he was at a casino when he met a Dutch gangster named Patrick Paul Van der Im. The two men got to talking, and Patrick shared that he'd grown up on the Caribbean island of Curacao, right next to Joran's home of Aruba. Patrick and Joran both spoke the same local language, Papia Mento, and quickly bonded over their similar upbringings and their similar issues with the law. It wasn't long until Joran considered Patrick a good friend. But Joran didn't realize he was being played.

• 9:24Vanessa Richardson?

  Patrick may have been a gangster, but he also had a strong sense of morality. He'd followed the Natalie Holloway case closely and had come to hate Joran with a passion. So when Patrick met Joran at the casino that day, he decided to play a long game to bring him down. After seven months of befriending Joran and earning his trust, Patrick reached out to a Dutch investigative reporter named Peter De Vries. De Vries had covered the Natalie Holloway case and was thrilled to have a chance to help catch Joran. With Patrick's permission, De Vries had his crew rig up his Range Rover with hidden cameras and microphones. Then, one night while Patrick and Joran were driving around smoking a joint together,

• 10:09Vanessa Richardson?

  Patrick laid his trap. As the hidden cameras rolled, he got Joran to admit what really happened between him and Natalie Holloway. Joran, occasionally puffing on the joint, calmly told Patrick he and Natalie had been having sex when she suddenly had a seizure and died. Joran said he then used a payphone to call a friend who had a boat. This friend helped him take Natalie's body out to sea where they left it. It later turned out many of the details of this story could not be confirmed, and the recording wasn't even admissible in court. But in the moment, De Vries didn't know that.

• 10:50Vanessa Richardson?

  When he broadcast Joran's hidden camera confession, it was a sensation. It won De Vries an international Emmy, which he dedicated to the memory of Natalie Holloway. It also turned Joran from tabloid villain to one of the most hated men in all of Europe. He was so despised, people would confront him anytime he went out in public. So in 2008, when he was 20, Joran fled the Netherlands and moved to Thailand. He hoped that this time, he could actually start fresh.

• 11:23Tristin Engels?

  So let's talk about what happens to someone psychologically who becomes a pariah in society like this. Studies have actually shown that social rejection activates pain centers in the brain. So being shunned or exiled doesn't just feel bad, the brain actually registers it as actual pain. Being exiled can also create a loss of identity, meaning or purpose. There are safety risks involved with being a pariah to society like this, especially for someone like Yoran. If they experience denial, blame shifting, and full withdrawal from society, it can cause someone to potentially join fringe groups or ideologies just to reconnect and get a sense of belonging, even though it's through extremism, which then can lead to

• 12:06Tristin Engels?

  anger or radicalization. Others may become more reactive or defiant and embrace the villain label that they were given. This is known in criminology or sociology as the labeling theory. It's essentially saying, if that's how you see me, then that's who I'm going to be. Ultimately, this could lead to behaviors like revenge and future violence.

• 12:27Vanessa Richardson?

  At this point, Yoran tried to keep a lower profile. He moved into an apartment in a suburb outside Bangkok, Thailand, and his parents helped him enroll in yet another university. He was able to go about his day without being constantly recognized. It was the fresh start he'd wanted. But Yoran couldn't outrun his past. Before long, his old nemesis, the Dutch investigative reporter Peter De Vries, had found him. And soon, he caught Yoran in another hidden camera sting. This time, De Vries recorded Yoran telling two Thai exotic dancers they could make a good living as sex workers in Holland, and he implied that he could help them do it.

• 13:12Vanessa Richardson?

  De Vries said this proved Yoran was involved in sex trafficking. The tape wasn't enough to warrant a police investigation, but it did cause a huge outcry in Bangkok. Protests were held at Yoran's university, and he was forced to drop out. Once again, he had become a pariah.

• 13:31Vanessa Richardson?

  Yorin was running out of places to run, so he stayed in Thailand for the time being. But he was about to be on the move again, because in February 2010, when Yorin was 22, his father suddenly died. Paulus had a heart attack while playing tennis in Aruba, at the same country club where they used to play together when Yorin was a child. He was only 57 years old. Yorin, usually cocky and aloof, seemed to take his father's death hard. He blamed himself for what happened, and for good reason. Yorin's actions over the past few years had tanked Paulus's career, ruined him financially, and destroyed his family's reputation. It wasn't crazy to think the constant stress

• 14:16Vanessa Richardson?

  may have contributed to his bad heart. Yorin flew home to Aruba to attend his father's funeral. After that, he would never return to Thailand.

• 14:27Tristin Engels?

  So far, Yorin has not exhibited much remorse for his actions, even when they were actively causing harm. So why now? It is possible to feel guilt without feeling empathy, and more importantly, that guilt is likely tied to the fear of consequences in this case. His father had been his biggest enabler and financial supporter in a lot of ways, when he was not exploiting others. Now that his father is gone, that support is threatened. This can also trigger a narcissistic injury, meaning it shattered his internal self-image, one of wealth and power, which could cause him to center the pain in order to control the narrative. This could also be instrumental, intended to garner sympathy and a way to humanize himself again, to regain the favor of the public

• 15:12Tristin Engels?

  after being a pariah for so long. There are a lot of explanations for this, but I don't think it's related to real empathy.

• 15:19Vanessa Richardson?

  So if someone really does cause the death of a loved one, what can that do to them psychologically?

• 15:26Tristin Engels?

  Yeah, causing the death of a loved one can really tear apart a person emotionally. Guilt, trauma, depression, identity collapse, and long-term emotional instability are common outcomes of something like that. Whether or not someone recovers really depends on their psychological makeup, the circumstances of the death, and the availability of emotional support or intervention.

• 15:50Vanessa Richardson?

  After Paulus's funeral, Yoran moved back into his old childhood home in Aruba with his mom, Anita. And while he was there, Yoran got busy launching his most audacious scheme yet. He contacted a lawyer for Natalie Holloway's family and proposed a deal. For $250,000, he would tell Natalie's parents where to find her remains. The Holloway family was suspicious of Yoran, of course, but they were also desperate to know what happened to their daughter. So they agreed on a plan. Yoran would first be paid an upfront fee of $25,000. Then, after Natalie's remains were found, he would be given the rest of the cash.

• 16:35Vanessa Richardson?

  The Holloway family's lawyer traveled to Aruba and met with Yoran to arrange his initial payment. Once Yoran had his $25,000 upfront fee, he told the lawyer his story. He said he'd taken Natalie to the beach, but she refused his advances. Enraged, he threw her to the ground, and she hit her head on a rock and died. He said he told his dad what happened, and Paulus buried Natalie in the foundation of a house that was under construction at the time. Unfortunately, it was yet another lie. The house Yoran pointed the lawyer to hadn't even been under construction when Natalie disappeared. But the Holloways didn't care,

• 17:19Vanessa Richardson?

  because this whole thing had been a setup. From the moment Yoran got in touch with them, the Holloways had been secretly working with the FBI and the Aruban police. They recorded every communication they had with him, but without any evidence to back up his so-called confession, there weren't any grounds to charge him with murder. However, he had been caught committing extortion, a federal crime.

• 17:47Vanessa Richardson?

  The FBI could have arrested Yoran right then and there, but they hoped that if they continued to monitor him, he might lead them to an even bigger prize: the truth. So with the Holloway's blessing, they let him remain free. This proved to be a deadly mistake. Within a few days, Yoran used the money he extorted from the Holloway's to leave Aruba and vanish. The next time he surfaced, he was over 6,000 miles away and wanted for another murder.

• 18:24Vanessa Richardson?

  With the holidays coming up, my schedule gets pretty chaotic. Between work, traveling to see family, grocery runs, and late-night errands, my house spends a lot more time empty. A neighbor down the street actually had someone break in a few weeks ago. No joke. And that was the exact moment I decided I needed real protection for my kids and my home. I love SimpliSafe because it doesn't just react to a crime after the damage is done. It prevents it. SimpliSafe uses smart, AI-powered cameras that detect suspicious activity and alert a live, US-based agent right away. In under 30 seconds, that agent can actually speak live through the outdoor camera to warn an intruder off while instantly contacting 911 if necessary. Leaving home without that constant nagging worry is priceless. And now is the absolute best time to secure your space.

• 19:09Vanessa Richardson?

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• 19:34Speaker 01

  Can't switch off at night? Give your curious mind somewhere peaceful to wander. I'm Simon Mettacks, host of Sleepy History. Join me for lost cities and ancient mysteries told slowly and calmly to help you drift off. And if you miss the ending, oh, that's rather the idea. Find Sleepy History in your podcast app and try an episode tonight.

• 20:04Speaker 03

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• 20:36Vanessa Richardson?

  Stephany Flores Ramirez was a born daredevil. When she was a kid in the early 90s, her family owned a circus, and her father, Ricardo, was a famous race car driver. When Stephanie was a teenager, she convinced him to let her join him in a race as his navigator. She grew up in Lima, Peru, as part of a large, happy family. Out of five children, she was the only girl. This gave Stephanie a special status. She was lovingly called "the princess." Her father was especially protective of her. A favorite pastime for Stephanie's family was playing poker together, and Stephanie was pretty good. As she got older, she started going to the casinos in the touristy parts of Lima

• 21:21Vanessa Richardson?

  to gamble for real money. She told friends and family that she wanted to become a professional poker player one day.

• 21:28Tristin Engels?

  Let's talk about the psychology of risk-taking, because it's interesting, right? We all take risks, some small, some big, and the reasons why we do it are actually deeply rooted in our brains. I have touched on this already in episode 1, but the core of risk-taking is dopamine, the brain's chemical messenger for reward and motivation. I've talked about the other two key players in the brain, the prefrontal cortex, which is our rational decision-maker, and the amygdala, which is like our fear and danger detector. When someone takes a risk, especially a high-stakes one, their brain is essentially having a conversation. One part's going, "Let's go for it. This could be exciting," while the other is saying, "Whoa, slow down a minute. Like, what are the consequences?" And when you have someone who does not have

• 22:13Tristin Engels?

  a fully-developed prefrontal cortex, they take bigger risks without fully grasping the long-term consequences or the fallout. So when it comes to risk-taking, it's essentially a dance between reward, restraint, emotion and logic, thrill and fear, and each person's brain kind of choreographed that dance a little differently, based on age, experience, and personality traits.

• 22:35Vanessa Richardson?

  By the time Stephanie was in her early twenties, her interest in poker was starting to become problematic. In May 2010, she reportedly had to sell her car to cover gambling debts. Around that same time, she also asked her dad for $1,000 to buy a new laptop, then took the cash and went to the casino instead. It seemed like her deception was worth it because, over a few nights, 21-year-old Stephanie turned the $1,000 into a few thousand more. Unfortunately, her luck was about to change for the worse because she was about to meet Joran van der Sloot. After receiving the $25,000 from the Holloways,

• 23:19Vanessa Richardson?

  22-year-old Joran had fled to Lima. He'd arrived in the city in May 2010, two weeks before meeting Stephanie, and checked into a cheap hotel called the Hotel Tac. He told people he was there for the Latin American Poker Tour, one of the biggest poker tournaments in the world, which was starting in a few weeks. Unlike Stephanie, luck had not been on Joran's side lately. Since coming to Lima, he'd already gambled away most of the money he'd taken from Natalie's family. It was so bad, he was struggling to pay his hotel bill, but he kept gambling anyway, hoping to turn things around. And so, around May 27, 2010, Yoran and Stephanie met at the Atlantic City Casino,

• 24:04Vanessa Richardson?

  one of the swankiest gambling houses in Lima. Stephanie had no idea who Yoran was or the desperate situation he was in. To her, he just seemed like a nice Dutch tourist, just like Natalie Holloway thought. Over the next few nights, Yoran and Stephanie met up several more times to play poker. On May 30, 2010, they played at the Atlantic City Casino in Lima until around 5 a.m., then left together. Stephanie drove them both to the Hotel Tac in her Jeep. Security cameras from the hotel showed Stephanie following Yoran to his room. She appeared sluggish, shuffling as she walked, almost like she was exhausted

• 24:48Vanessa Richardson?

  from a long night of drinking or she'd been drugged. Meanwhile, Yoran looked upbeat and full of energy. They entered his room, and Yoran shut the door. It was the last time Stephany Flores was seen alive. It was also exactly five years to the day since Natalie Holloway disappeared.

• 25:12Tristin Engels?

  Let's talk about this eerie detail in this case, that he allegedly abducted her on the same date, exactly five years later. From a psychological standpoint, that timing may not be accidental. In fact, it could reveal quite a bit about his mindset. First, if the date was intentional, and there's reason to believe it may have been, then it speaks to symbolism, ritual, and control. For some offenders, particularly those with narcissistic or sociopathic traits, anniversaries of traumatic or violent events can carry deep psychological significance, not in a remorseful way, but in a power-claiming way. Committing another crime on the anniversary could serve multiple purposes. It could be reinforcing a sense of power, re-experiencing the thrill,

• 25:57Tristin Engels?

  or acting out unresolved tension.

• 25:59Vanessa Richardson?

  Do serial killers often repeat killings on the same date?

• 26:03Tristin Engels?

  Not particularly. When it comes to serial killers, it's not about the exact same date so much as it is about showing a cyclical, symbolic, or emotional connection to time. For example, Ed Kemper killed his mother and her friend on Good Friday weekend, and some people theorize that there was symbolism to that because it represents rebirth and punishment. Dennis Rader, for example, often referenced dates and anniversaries with his communications with police, and he kept detailed logs of his crimes. Israel Keyes meticulously planned murders, months, even years in advance, and he chose his dates carefully. So they don't commonly repeat on the same date, but time does have symbolic or cyclical meaning to them.

• 26:48Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, after a few days went by, Stephanie's family became worried about her. She was usually good about checking in with them. They feared she may have been kidnapped for ransom, a sadly common crime in Peru. Stephanie's father Ricardo and her brothers set out looking for her. They knew Stephanie was a gambler, so they asked around at the casinos. And when they talked to the staff at the Atlantic City, some of them remembered seeing Stephanie a few nights before. Ricardo got the casino to show him security tapes from the 31st, where he saw his daughter playing poker with a tall white man. A staff member knew his name: Yoran Van der Sloot. However, no one knew much about him.

• 27:32Vanessa Richardson?

  Yoran was infamous in a lot of places, but the Natalie Holloway case had barely made the news in Peru. As far as anyone could tell, he was just a Dutch poker player in town for the big tournament. At first, Ricardo and his sons worried Yoran may have also been kidnapped along with Stephanie. They told the police they were looking for two victims and put out a missing persons bulletin featuring photos of both Stephanie and Yoran. But later that day, when Ricardo and his sons were back home with Stephanie's mom, they decided to search the name Yoran Van der Sloot online. And when the results came up, their concern for Yoran turned to horror. The man their daughter had last been seen with

• 28:16Vanessa Richardson?

  was the prime suspect in the murder of another young woman, one he'd also met at a casino. Stephanie's family immediately feared the worst.

• 28:27Vanessa Richardson?

  And it wasn't long before they received a tragic answer.

• 28:32Vanessa Richardson?

  Another guest at the hotel TAC saw the missing person bulletin for Yoran and recognized that he'd been staying at the hotel. The guest called the hotel's receptionist to see if she knew where he was, but she hadn't seen Yoran in a few days. When she went to check his room, she was shocked by what she found. The room was destroyed and the dead body of a young woman lay in a pool of blood. The body was swollen and covered in bruises. It was clear she'd been beaten to death. Police soon identified her as Stephanie.

• 29:08Tristin Engels?

  Let's talk about why people might commit the same crime again and again. In many cases, these are individuals whose entire way of thinking, what we would call their cognitive map, is wired for short-term gain, not long-term consequence. And I think we've clearly outlined how this applies to Yoran. He has criminal thinking errors, which are rigid, distorted ways of interpreting the world. For example, his years of lacking real consequence may have caused him to believe that he's entitled to break the rules or that the rules just don't apply to him and that he can continue to violate other people. A large number of repeat offenders struggle with impulse control, particularly if they have underlying substance use disorders or antisocial personality.

• 29:50Tristin Engels?

  Many don't see a compelling reason to change or don't believe that they can change. We talked about the labeling theory and given that most of the world knows who Yoran is and he has had to relocate to countries where he isn't known to avoid detection, he may feel he needs to live up to the identity that society has given him. Not every repeat offender is hardened or evil, though. Some are deeply traumatized, undertreated, or psychologically stuck. Others, especially those with personality disorders, may not experience empathy or remorse the way most people do. All this to say, this isn't about excusing the repeat of offenders. It's about learning how to break the cycle.

• 30:31Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, Stephanie's family was beyond devastated. But they were also determined to see her killer brought to justice. Stephanie's father Ricardo quickly called a press conference and gave an emotional speech calling on anyone with information on Yoran to alert the police immediately. Staring directly into the cameras and holding up a photo of Yoran, Ricardo said, "Vander Sloot must be stopped before he kills again. I don't want this to happen to other families." It was a chilling moment, one which was broadcast all over Peru. Suddenly, Yoran was the most wanted man in the country.

• 31:13Vanessa Richardson?

  But by that point, he was already hundreds of miles from Lima, running for his life.

• 31:24Speaker 04

  Early morning on a Manhattan sidewalk, a shooting caught on surveillance video.

• 31:29Speaker 05

  It was an assassination-style killing. And everybody saw it.

• 31:33Speaker 04

  Now, as Luigi Mangione prepares to stand trial for the murder of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson, which he denies, a new podcast series from ABC Audio in 2020 goes inside this captivating case. I'm ABC News legal analyst Brian Buckmeyer. Listen to Burden of Proof: Luigi Mangione wherever you get your podcasts.

• 32:00Vanessa Richardson?

  Five years to the day after the disappearance of Natalie Holloway, Yoran Van Der Sloot was officially on the run. On May 30, 2010, the 22-year-old murdered 21-year-old Stephany Flores Ramirez in Lima, Peru. Just a few hours later, he made a run for it. It took three days for Stephanie's body to be found on June 2. The police started a massive manhunt for Yoran almost immediately. But by then, Yoran had a big head start. Within 12 hours of killing Stephanie, he'd fled to the city of Ica, 150 miles south of Lima.

• 32:41Vanessa Richardson?

  To disguise himself, he'd shaved his head and dyed the stubble an orange blonde.

• 32:48Vanessa Richardson?

  He was trying to make it to Chile, where he could disappear into the city of Santiago, but the border was still hundreds of miles away. To get there, Yoran hired a string of taxis. He managed to cross the Chilean border, but before they reached Santiago, the car reached a toll booth. By now, it had been over a day since Stephanie's body was discovered. A notice had been put out to all toll booth attendants in Chile to be on the lookout for a tall, white Dutchman wanted for murder in Peru. As the taxi waited, a toll booth attendant spotted Yoran in the backseat. He was slouching down, low, trying to hide. The attendant quickly called the authorities. Shortly after,

• 33:32Vanessa Richardson?

  Chilean police swarmed the taxi. Yoran was calm and did not resist arrest. Officers on the scene said he seemed almost relieved. There was nowhere left for him to run. Would dealing with the fallout of a Natalie case for so long maybe make him want to be caught and be done with it all?

• 33:52Tristin Engels?

  Yeah, strange as it sounds, some offenders actually feel a profound sense of relief when they're caught. And from a psychological perspective, it makes a lot of sense. So we talked about what holding on to a secret like murder can do to someone psychologically in episode one, but let's do a quick recap. Keeping a crime hidden, especially something like this, can cause an offender to live in a constant state of fear of exposure, hypervigilance, guilt or shame, obviously depending on their level of empathy, and just exhaustion. Yoran was having to constantly relocate to different countries to escape this infamy, and that can be physically and financially difficult to do, especially to sustain. He was flirting with these confessions in order to fund what could arguably have been a double life.

• 34:37Tristin Engels?

  And there will come a time when that tap runs dry, especially when each time he was deceitful and they were catching on to that. He knew this. The human psyche is complex. Even those who commit horrible crimes are still wired for psychological balance. And sometimes the only way to regain that balance is to stop running, even if it means facing the very punishment that they feared. Continuing to run from it can become harder than just getting caught.

• 35:03Vanessa Richardson?

  While Yoran might have been relieved to stop running, he still wasn't ready to come clean. When questioned by the Chilean police, he told them a wild story. According to him, he and Stephanie had been held at gunpoint by two men dressed as police officers in his hotel room. He blamed Stephanie's murder on these "mystery men." But the officers weren't buying it. Yoran was extradited back to Peru, where he faced charges for the murder of Stephany Flores Ramirez. Knowing how tricky Yoran was, the Peruvian authorities were worried he would attempt to escape his charges by pleading insanity. So while he was in custody, they ordered him to undergo a psychological exam.

• 35:47Vanessa Richardson?

  Ultimately, they concluded that Yoran wasn't insane, so he wouldn't be able to use that defense in court. However, he was pathologically selfish and prone to violence. Dr. Engels, I'd love to hear your take on Yoran's psychological exam. Does this sound like what you'd expect? Or is there anything you're surprised by here?

• 36:07Tristin Engels?

  No, I'm not surprised at all. I think what I will say, nothing that you mentioned discloses a formal clinical diagnosis. It seems like they didn't publicly disclose the full findings of this evaluation, or if they had, their findings were that he had no diagnosis. Pathological selfishness is not a diagnosis, but a symptom or trait of something else. What they did disclose indicates that it did not have a mental disease or defect that impaired his ability to understand right from wrong during the murder of Stephanie. And I would agree. He knows right from wrong. He's been running from his wrongs his entire life. He fled Lima after killing Stephanie. And I've never met, nor have I evaluated Yoran, so this is not a formal opinion and it's for educational and entertainment purposes only. But if I was assessing him,

• 36:52Tristin Engels?

  I would rule out antisocial personality disorder. And here's why. There appears to have been evidence of conduct disorder before the age of 18. He threw a homeless man over a bridge and he assaulted a classmate. He has a pattern of disregard for rules and norms of society and he has spent most of his life breaking the law with very little empathy, remorse, or emotional connection to anyone. He has a strong sense of entitlement, a pattern of pathological lying, exploitation of others, and he is parasitic and gradios. This is criteria for antisocial personality disorder, and if I was assessing him, I would have also assessed for psychopathy traits. That's not to say they didn't, but what they released publicly does not confirm that they did either.

• 37:37Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, with his psych exam out of the way, the Peruvian authorities had a clear path to charge him with the murder of Stephany Flores. Unlike in the Natalie Holloway case, there was an abundance of evidence against Yoran this time, namely the video of them going into his room, the fact that only Yoran had left, and of course, the bloody crime scene he'd left behind. Yoran knew they had him dead to rights, so he decided to confess in exchange for a plea deal. According to Yoran, he and Stephanie went back to his hotel room that night so they could keep playing poker on his laptop. But when Yoran was out of the room, Stephanie snooped on his computer and found a message.

• 38:18Vanessa Richardson?

  It's not clear who it was from, but the sender accused him of killing Natalie Holloway. As Yoran told it, Stephanie got upset at the message and hit him. He said that caused him to fly into a rage and murder Stephanie by beating her, strangling her, and suffocating her with his shirt. Of course, coming from Yoran, even this sworn testimony may not be the truth. Yoran had no injuries when he was arrested, throwing doubt on his claim that Stephanie had hit him. It seems he may have invented that in some attempt to claim self-defense. Some people theorize Yoran may have lured Stephanie back to his room specifically to rob her.

• 39:00Vanessa Richardson?

  After all, he was desperate for cash and knew she'd been on a winning streak, and before fleeing her hotel room, he reportedly stole the money from her pockets. On January 11, 2012, 24-year-old Yoran officially pleaded guilty to Stephanie's murder. He was sentenced to 28 years in a maximum-security prison in Peru. But there were still more legal troubles ahead of him.

• 39:33Vanessa Richardson?

  In 2023, 13 years after being sent to prison for Stephanie's murder, 36-year-old Joran van der Slut was extradited to the United States. He was finally facing charges for extorting the Holloway family in 2010, and because they were US citizens, the case was under American jurisdiction. Once again, Joran agreed to a plea deal. In exchange for a lighter sentence, he agreed to play his final card. Joran would finally tell the truth about what happened to Natalie Holloway. Natalie's parents watched over a live video feed as Joran was brought into an interrogation room.

• 40:15Vanessa Richardson?

  Now aged 36 and having spent over a decade in Peruvian prisons, Joran looked haggard. His head was shaved, almost bald, and his eyes were sunken. In a chillingly calm voice, he finally told the true story of what happened, May 31, 2005. And a warning: This is disturbing. After meeting up with Natalie at a bar, Joran says he offered to give her a ride back to her hotel in his friend Deepak's car. But instead of taking her there, he had Deepak drop them off on the beach about a half-mile away. Alone together on the beach, Joran said he and Natalie started kissing.

• 40:58Vanessa Richardson?

  But when he started to feel her up, she resisted and told him no. When Joran wouldn't let up, Natalie kneed him in the crotch. Joran said he then kicked Natalie in her face. He saw blood and thought she was unconscious or maybe even dead. In an attempt to cover up his crime, Joran says he then picked up a nearby cinder block and used it to bash in her head. He then hauled her body into the ocean and pushed it out to sea.

• 41:32Tristin Engels?

  So Natalie's family finally got what we suspect is the full truth of what happened to their daughter. And there are pros and cons about gaining closure to something like this, because this was an ambiguous loss. Natalie's disappearance is one of the most psychologically difficult forms of grief for a family. And let's explore the benefits first. They now have the ability to have a sense of finality. Uncertainty is often far more painful and disorienting than the grief that comes with confirmation. And knowing the truth helps shift from searching to mourning. It helps them to stop filling in the blanks with their own theories. Her family can finally have the ability to grieve properly and memorialize her or honor her rather than living in limbo.

• 42:15Tristin Engels?

  And they can reclaim part of the story that was stolen from them, and they no longer can be taunted by Yoran. Now let's explore the risks or the cons. Confirmation can cause her family and her friends, even her community, to feel re-traumatized in some ways, especially from the details and the cruelty of it all. It can reopen wounds that never healed and deepen the pain that they've carried for years. And even though they were desperate for the truth, learning it, it can provoke rage or hopelessness and a sense of injustice. They may feel violated all over again. But in short, learning the truth can be both healing and shattering, but it provides facts, not necessarily comfort, but for many, it's still better than not knowing.

• 43:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Like many of Yoran's previous confessions, there was no way to know for sure if it was the truth. But in this case, the Holloway family says it brought them closure. Natalie's mother, Beth, was quoted as saying, "Even as hard as it is to hear, it is still not as torturous as the not knowing. It was time for me to know." If Yoran thought his confession would get him out of Peruvian prison, he was mistaken. As of this recording, he's in a maximum-security prison in Peru, serving his 28-year sentence for the murder of Stephany Flores, while also serving two 20-year sentences for extortion and wire fraud in the Holloway case.

• 43:41Vanessa Richardson?

  However, the statute of limitations for homicide in Aruba is 12 years, and since Yoran had waited 13 years to officially confess in a court of law, he faced no additional jail time for Natalie's murder.

• 43:58Vanessa Richardson?

  If Natalie Holloway and Stephany Flores Ramirez were still alive today, they would both be in their mid to late 30s. They were remarkable young women, beloved by their families and friends. They were smart, funny, and passionate. It is a tragedy beyond words that no one will ever know the lives they may have led because they were both ended so early by Joran van der Sloot. As for Joran, even prison seems not to have changed his behavior much. Fellow inmates have described him as arrogant, cocky, and quote, "just a total douchebag."

• 44:39Vanessa Richardson?

  He's been in multiple fights, and in 2023, another 18 years were added to his sentence for trafficking cocaine while in prison. However, Peruvian law restricts prison terms to no more than 35 years for anyone not serving a life sentence, which means Joran is currently scheduled for release in 2045, when he is 58 years old. But if he ever becomes a free man, the authorities will certainly be keeping a close eye on him. At this point, it's clear that Joran hasn't changed, and it doesn't seem like he ever will.

• 45:31Vanessa Richardson?

  Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time for a deep dive into the mind of another murderer.

• 45:38Tristin Engels?

  Killer Minds is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media at @CrimeHouse. And don't forget to rate, review, and follow Killer Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference.

• 45:57Vanessa Richardson?

  And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Killer Minds ad-free, along with early access to each thrilling two-part series and exciting bonus content.

• 46:13Vanessa Richardson?

  Killer Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson, and Dr. Tristin Engels, and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Killer Minds team: Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pritzowski, Sarah Kemp, Dan Merk, Sarah Tardif, and Carrie Murphy. Of the many sources we used when researching this episode, the one we found the most credible and helpful was Portrait of a Monster by Lisa Pulitzer and Cole Thompson. Thank you for listening.

• 46:55Vanessa Richardson?

  If you're looking for your next podcast, check out What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.