MURDEROUS MINDS: ‘Doomsday Mom’ Lori Vallow Daybell Pt. 1

She called herself a devout mother, but a jury just ruled that Lori Vallow Daybell is a convicted killer. In Part 1, we uncover how she was drawn into a fringe doomsday cult—and how her obsession with prophecy and power became a deadly mission. Killer Minds is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Don’t miss out on all things Killer Minds! Instagram: @killerminds https://www.instagram.com/killerminds/ | @Crimehouse https://www.instagram.com/crimehouse/ TikTok: @Crimehouse https://www.tiktok.com/@crimehouse Facebook: @crimehousestudios https://www.facebook.com/crimehousestudios X: @crimehousemedia https://x.com/crimehousemedia YouTube: @crimehousestudios https://www.youtube.com/@crimehousestudios

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Hi, everyone. Before today's episode, there's another show I want to tell you about. It's called What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Plus, Connor's infectious energy that'll make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on earth. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  This is Crime House.

• 0:43Vanessa Richardson?

  Lori Vallow Daybell spent her life looking for love. After a troubled youth, she wanted someone to build a life with who shared her deep Mormon faith. But all she found was a cycle of abusive relationships, each worse than the last. In the end, her faith was the only thing she had left. But the more she leaned on it, the darker her life became. And eventually, Lori's faith drove her to do terrible things.

• 1:26Vanessa Richardson?

  The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is Killer Minds, a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.

• 1:42Tristin Engels?

  And I'm Dr. Tristin Engels. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer.

• 1:50Vanessa Richardson?

  Crime House is made possible by you. Please rate, review, and follow Killer Minds. To enhance your listening experience with ad-free, early access to each two-part series and bonus content, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts.

• 2:07Vanessa Richardson?

  A warning: This episode contains descriptions of physical and sexual abuse, including that of minors. Listener discretion is advised. Today, we begin our deep dive on Lori Vallow Daybell, the leader of an extremist Mormon cult who was found guilty of murdering two of her children and conspiring to kill her husband's ex-wife.

• 2:31Tristin Engels?

  And as Vanessa goes through the story, I'll be talking about things like the psychological effects of Lori's childhood trauma, what drove her descent into dangerous fringe beliefs, and her callous attitude toward death.

• 2:44Vanessa Richardson?

  And as always, we'll be asking the question, "What makes a killer?"

• 2:52Speaker 03

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• 3:24Vanessa Richardson?

  All any child wants is their parents' love. Feeling cared for can be the difference between a happy life or a troubled one. Sadly, for Lori Vallow Daybell, misery was always in the cards. Lori was born on June 26, 1973, in Rialto, California, a suburban city 56 miles east of Los Angeles. Her parents, Janice and Barry Cox, had five kids. Lori was the second youngest. Barry sold life insurance for a living, and the family was well off, but they didn't use that money to create a loving home. Instead, Barry and Janice went on weekend trips to Hawaii,

• 4:06Vanessa Richardson?

  often leaving the kids behind to fend for themselves. Lori was only about seven years old when her parents started these weekend getaways. They gave blank checks to one of their older sons, Alex, who was 12, to buy food. But Alex used the money to throw house parties instead.

• 4:25Tristin Engels?

  Children look to their parents or their primary caregivers as role models. They observe, imitate, and learn from them, including how to view the world, how to communicate, how to self-soothe, and their sense of security, their worth, and their value. With that understanding, these weekend getaways could have inadvertently taught their children that material things like vacations are more important than they are. They could be teaching their children that they value their own interests as parents over their responsibilities, or over their children as a whole. We can see that this is already being imitated by Alex because he's choosing to prioritize throwing house parties over the responsibility that he was given in their parents' absence.

• 5:08Tristin Engels?

  I think this is a critical experience for Lori and who she would become because, interestingly, she mimics this exact thing as an adult with Hawaii, which we will get into as we progress through the story.

• 5:21Vanessa Richardson?

  What would it feel like to also have your older sibling, Alex, who's supposed to be taking care of you, focusing on partying instead?

• 5:29Tristin Engels?

  Children look up to older siblings as role models as well, and particularly at Lori's age now in the story, she's seven years old. So when she's seeing that Alex is also doing the same thing, he's prioritizing self-interest over responsibilities, it's just reinforcing to her that, for example, selfishness is normal and expected. So what Lori doesn't know at this point, because she's too young, is that Alex is also too young to be taking on the role of a parent, not to mention parenting four children every weekend. And based on what you described, their parents are showing signs of neglectful parenting style. And that's characterized by little involvement, low responsiveness, and a lack of emotional support and guidance. And the long-term outcomes of this parenting style on children

• 6:14Tristin Engels?

  include low self-esteem, academic and behavioral struggles, poor emotional regulation, and unhealthy attachments to others. So we're going to see these outcomes sort of take place in Lori as we go through the story.

• 6:28Vanessa Richardson?

  Fortunately, Lori managed to feed herself and her younger sister, likely with whatever she could find in the pantry. She never went to a neighbor for help, probably because she didn't want to get her parents in trouble. In fact, it doesn't seem like any of their neighbors realized what was happening, because Barry and Janice were good at pretending to be wholesome, attentive parents, mainly by taking the family to church every Sunday.

• 6:52Tristin Engels?

  Barry and Janice could, unfortunately, also be teaching their children that appearances, even if they're not authentic, are synonymous with being honest or righteous, when that's actually not the case.

• 7:04Vanessa Richardson?

  It wasn't all for show, though. The Coxes were Mormon and belonged to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or LDS. Barry was serious about his faith. He tutored all his kids in Scripture. And he paid special attention to Lori. She was more interested in the Book of Mormon than her siblings. By the time she was eight, Lori understood the underlying messages better than any of them. Barry gave her individual lessons, which were sometimes so powerful, they moved Lori to tears. And the more attention Barry paid to her, the more she threw herself into religion. Lori began to view her father almost like a god in his own right. She was captivated by his spiritual fervor.

• 7:48Vanessa Richardson?

  But these lessons were the only time he ever paid attention to her. Otherwise, he didn't keep a close eye on what the kids were up to. So he had no idea that Lori didn't feel safe inside her own home.

• 8:02Vanessa Richardson?

  Lori and her friend, who we'll call Samantha, used to spend a lot of time in the Coxes' pool when they were kids. Sometimes, they noticed Lori's older brother, Alex, watching them. Samantha said it made her feel uncomfortable. And as they got older, things only got worse. According to Samantha, when the girls were in seventh grade, Lori reportedly said that Alex had been making sexual advances toward her. Reportedly, Lori didn't provide a lot of detail, but the confession left her sobbing in Samantha's arms.

• 8:34Tristin Engels?

  The unfortunate reality regarding sexual abuse is that when it comes to juveniles, 93% of the time, they know their abuser. And 34% of the abusers were family members. In fact, research has shown that sibling sexual abuse is more common than parental sexual abuse. And one common finding among cases of sibling sexual abuse was a dysfunctional family environment, which arguably appears to be the case here with Lori. Sibling sexual abuse affects a survivor's ability to trust others, both men and women. It can create a negative sense of self-worth and cause intrusive thoughts. They are also at an increased risk of developing complex post-traumatic stress disorder, especially if the abuse is prolonged,

• 9:17Tristin Engels?

  including depression, anxiety, substance abuse, and deficits in academic and behavioral functioning.

• 9:23Vanessa Richardson?

  Could Lori's young age have made her especially susceptible to lasting trauma? And how might have it affected her concept of romantic relationships?

• 9:32Tristin Engels?

  Yeah, it absolutely could have made her more susceptible because she's more vulnerable, but also it's starting so young, which means it could be prolonged even more. Also, it makes me wonder if this happened to her younger sister as well? Or if she was singled out because of the individualized attention she got from her father that Alex was witnessing? Because remember, children, they observe and they mimic. So maybe this specialized attention was something that Alex was seeing and then wanted to carry out on his own. But regarding the impact of this, the reality is the effects vary by individual. Some survivors will become more inhibited as adults, feeling uncomfortable romantically due to the mistrust of others

• 10:14Tristin Engels?

  and having an overall fear of sexual intimacy of any kind. Whereas others may be on the opposite spectrum. They may become hypersexual and engage in promiscuous or risky behavior. Both are maladaptive forms of protection. Now, I've Never met, nor have I evaluated Lori Vallow Daybell. So this is purely educational purposes only, and I'm not formally diagnosing. I'm not giving any formal clinical opinions. But with that in mind, I have seen her in some of the documentaries and I've seen video of her during her current criminal trials. And consistent with the publicly disclosed diagnosis that was given, there does appear to be narcissistic and histrionic traits consistent with a personality disorder.

• 10:56Tristin Engels?

  These traits would stem from her unstable childhood, that early sexual trauma, if it did occur, and the core values she was taught from her parents regarding appearances, reputation, and material things.

• 11:10Vanessa Richardson?

  We don't know for sure if Alex ever sexually abused Lori. After that day, Lori never mentioned it again. But we do know that neither she nor Samantha ever told an adult about it, which meant no one could offer Lori any support or counseling. And as she got older, it seemed like the experience did impact Lori's romantic life. During her senior year of high school, she started dating a boy named Nelson Yanes. Nelson wasn't Mormon, so Lori's parents didn't approve of him. Neither did Samantha. But her problem didn't have to do with religion. Nelson reportedly had a hot temper and would yell at Lori a lot at school. Samantha felt uncomfortable around him, so she stopped spending time with Lori in order to avoid Nelson.

• 11:56Tristin Engels?

  Isolation and alienation from others due to a romantic relationship is a sign, potentially, of intimate partner violence.

• 12:04Vanessa Richardson?

  And without Samantha's support, Lori became even more dependent on Nelson. When she was 18 and they both graduated from high school, they moved in together. About a year later, in 1992, Lori and Nelson decided to get married, which Lori's parents definitely didn't approve of. So the couple eloped in Las Vegas. The newlyweds were determined to face the world together. But it wasn't meant to be. They got divorced after only a year.

• 12:35Vanessa Richardson?

  Ready for a fresh start, Lori moved to Austin, Texas, since another one of her older brothers lived there with his fiance. Once there, Lori enrolled in beauty school and got a job as a hairstylist. But just as things were starting to look up for Lori, another ill-fated relationship dragged her down. In 1993, when she was 20 years old, Lori met a guy named William LaJolla. He was a year older than her, and by July 1995, they were living together. Just like Nelson, William wasn't Mormon. But this time around, Lori wanted to be with someone who shared her faith. She tried to persuade William to convert, but he wouldn't budge.

• 13:17Vanessa Richardson?

  It led to a lot of tension that eventually boiled over. One night later in 1995, they got into an explosive argument. William lost his temper and reportedly hit Lori in the face. She called the police, and William was charged with assault. But Lori didn't show up to court, so the charges were dropped. That's likely because she didn't want William to go to jail. Lori had recently found out she was pregnant, and she didn't want to be a single mother. So instead of ending things, the two got married that October, just three months after William assaulted Lori. Once again, none of Lori's friends or family came to the ceremony.

• 14:00Vanessa Richardson?

  They knew what was happening between Lori and William, and they refused to support their marriage.

• 14:06Tristin Engels?

  So I mentioned a bit ago, a common tactic of intimate partner violence is the isolation or alienation of the victim from any source of support. That's because the goal is to make them emotionally, physically, financially, and socially dependent on their abuser, so they will struggle to leave. Lori being pregnant, as you mentioned, makes her even more vulnerable to that dependency. She's at an increased risk of depression, anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder, and even deficits in her ability to bond with her baby. And the fact that he's been physically violent toward her also puts the baby at risk. If he continues to be abusive while she's pregnant, there could be prenatal injuries as well. But also to un- Understand the emotional toll that this likely had on Lori, we have to factor in her religious beliefs.

• 14:51Tristin Engels?

  She was pregnant out of wedlock and premarital sex is considered a sin within her religion. So if she was feeling a loss of support from family and friends because of her relationship, then maintaining the support of her higher power was probably her main source of hope in these moments. And this could explain, at least in part, why she seemingly became radicalized in these beliefs later on.

• 15:15Vanessa Richardson?

  Unfortunately, marriage didn't change William's ways. Over the next few months, while Lori was pregnant, she called the police on William multiple times. She accused him of hitting her, pushing her and keeping the phone away from her so that she couldn't call 911. It seems like Lori pressed charges at least once, but the case was eventually dismissed. With Lori's due date rapidly approaching, she decided to take matters into her own hands. By April 1996, she separated from William. That same month, 22-year-old Lori gave birth to their son, Colby. William made an attempt to reconcile and promised to convert to Mormonism, but Lori wasn't having it.

• 15:59Vanessa Richardson?

  By the end of 1996, she officially filed for her second divorce and had sole custody over their son. Thankfully, Lori's family was there to support her emotionally through it all, but she was still on her own financially. For the next eight years, she and Colby moved around to different parts of Texas while Lori struggled to find work. By 2001, 27-year-old Lori and five-year-old Colby had ended up in the aptly-named town of Driftwood, where Lori got a job at a hair salon. And while she was working, she met a 43-year-old business analyst named Joe Ryan. Just like with her past relationships, she quickly fell in love, and it moved fast.

• 16:44Vanessa Richardson?

  They got married in less than a year. Joe had agreed to convert to LDS, though it seems like he didn't follow through. It also seems like Lori's family didn't take his promise seriously because they didn't attend this wedding either.

• 17:00Vanessa Richardson?

  That didn't seem to bother Lori, though. She was smitten with Joe. He provided for her and Colby. He even built an in-home hair salon so Lori could work for herself. Their new life appeared to be going well. And in September 2002, they had a daughter named Tylee. But soon enough, things turned disastrous. Joe had anger issues that surfaced shortly after Tylee was born. His rage was mostly directed at his stepson, Colby. If Colby ever did something small that annoyed him, like smacking his lips while eating, Joe apparently flew into a rage. He often hit Colby or beat him with a leather belt. But Colby wasn't Joe's only target.

• 17:45Vanessa Richardson?

  One day after something set him off, Joe reportedly grabbed a baseball bat and demolished Lori's in-home salon. After that, Lori was terrified of her husband, but she didn't know how to protect herself or her children. The only escape she could think of was religion. Her father's lessons used to transport her out of her unhappy home life and into a world of wisdom and passion. And while her father might not have been there for her anymore, the Mormon church still was. It was the only place Lori found peace. She started bringing Colby and Tylee there whenever she could. And when they weren't at church, Lori spent her time obsessively reading scripture.

• 18:30Vanessa Richardson?

  Somewhere in those pages, she received a message, and it wouldn't be long before she twisted it beyond recognition.

• 18:43Vanessa Richardson?

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• 19:27Vanessa Richardson?

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• 19:58Speaker 04

  One day last year, police entered a mansion in LA County and discovered the couple that live there had almost two dozen children. Nearly every one of them born through surrogates. But those surrogates had been deceived.

• 20:15Speaker 05

  I started crying. I was like, what the heck did I just get myself into?

• 20:20Speaker 04

  I'm Ava Kaufman. The Journey is a new series from In the Dark and The New Yorker. Find it now in the In the Dark podcast feed.

• 20:28Vanessa Richardson?

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• 21:13Vanessa Richardson?

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• 21:58Vanessa Richardson?

  to a man named Joe Ryan. To escape his emotional and physical abuse, she leaned on her devout Mormon faith. At first, this took the form of frequent church visits and reading scripture, but soon Lori found a more unconventional way to express her beliefs. One day, she emptied one of the rooms in her house and filled it with mirrors. When she wasn't studying scripture, she played religious music and danced naked, surrounded by her reflections. This was not a Mormon tradition, but it helped her feel closer to God, and it was the only way to withstand the misery surrounding her. But the more Lori sought refuge in her religion, the deeper she dove into its fringes, she

• 22:43Vanessa Richardson?

  didn't just want to reflect God's light, she wanted to be the light. Mormons believe in modern-day prophets. The Church officially acknowledges people who are able to receive revelations from God and His angels. But Lori took that idea a step further. She believed certain people could also communicate with human spirits, those that existed beyond the veil, a mysterious state of being people enter into after they die. This was not something Mormons believed prophets could do, but Lori didn't care. She believed she was one of those chosen few, and she wanted to harness her inner power.

• 23:25Tristin Engels?

  Throughout my career, I have seen many individuals turn to religion for coping during hard times when they feel a loss of control. And this is especially true of incarcerated populations or people experiencing addiction. They're searching for comfort, meaning, purpose, and freedom from their fear or forgiveness of their guilt. And religion allows them to find community, improve their own self-concept, and it gives them hope. With Lori, it seems like the only time she felt attention, validation, or belonging was when she focused on her religion. This was seemingly the only individualized attention she had with her father, who was a central figure in her life. So it would make sense why she would lean on her religion now. However, what you're describing is unconventional.

• 24:10Tristin Engels?

  The room with the mirrors, the dancing, and this need to harness her inner power within the context of everything else that you described is alarming. It's as if she's feeling that loss of power and she's overcompensating. But also, she needs admiration. I mean, that's pretty apparent in the quick marriages that she has. And all of these behaviors that she's doing could be a form of her self-admiring to make up for that.

• 24:40Vanessa Richardson?

  Lori's faith may have helped her cope with her day-to-day life, but it manifested in ways that were certainly unconventional. We don't know if she believed she was actually speaking to the dead, but she did think someone who'd passed on had come back to her. Lori was convinced that her daughter, Tylee, was the reincarnation of her oldest sister, Stacy. She'd passed away a few years earlier, in 1998, from diabetes complications. Ultimately, it was a harmless belief, but it wasn't long before Lori's attitude toward death became much more dangerous. Around 2004, when her son Colby was just eight years old, he went to Lori with some devastating news. Apparently, Joe hadn't just been hitting Colby, he'd also been sexually abusing him.

• 25:27Vanessa Richardson?

  Lori was stunned. All she could think was that she wanted to murder Joe. And she didn't keep those feelings a secret. Lori went to church and told her bishop about the urge she felt to kill her husband. But instead of being ashamed of it, she tried to justify it. Lori brought up a story from the Book of Mormon about a prophet named Nephi, who killed another man in order to protect all righteousness on earth.

• 25:55Tristin Engels?

  Typically, when someone undergoes a significant amount of trauma or ongoing abuse, we'll either see an increase or a decrease in religious beliefs. People either turn to their faith, like I discussed before, for hope, meaning, or purpose, and others begin questioning their faith. Lori leaned into her of faith, and arguably, a little too much, because she's exhibiting fringe beliefs. So is this evidence that Lori is experiencing delusions? Well, it's possible. A delusion is a fixed belief that cannot be changed, even when presented with evidence to the contrary. Lori has been experiencing a very abusive environment, according to her. And we know that stress, social isolation, and exposure to trauma can significantly influence

• 26:38Tristin Engels?

  the development and manifestation of delusions. So this could explain the altered thought content. It's also not unusual for someone experiencing delusions to rationalize their beliefs, and they tend to lack self-awareness that their belief is irrational. And that appears to be the case here. I mean, she's expressing homicidal ideation with intent, as if it's justified. If this was said to me as a mandated reporter in California, I would legally be required to get law enforcement involved and notify her husband.

• 27:10Vanessa Richardson?

  Religion aside, how might Lori's feelings of maternal protectiveness and desperation have fed into her literal murderous rage?

• 27:19Tristin Engels?

  I mean, it could have, especially if she truly was a survivor of sexual abuse herself. I can understand why people would question this, though, because her son has been reportedly physically abused by Joe throughout her marriage, and it doesn't seem that she reacted like this during these experiences. But we also have to remember that according to Lori, she was also being physically abused. And every relationship, again, according to Lori, that she has had, has been physically abusive. So to her, she may have felt that this was normal or expected, even acceptable, as long as they were provided for. But it could also be true that she had been experiencing intrusive thoughts of harming her husband for a while. And this admission from Colby, in addition to her increased fixation

• 28:04Tristin Engels?

  on her religion, and maybe even desperation to get out of her marriage, was what led her to verbalizing them like this. Remember, she's also been isolated from others, at least according to her. There's no adult providing any sort of reality testing for her to help her recognize how radical her beliefs have become, at least not until now, when she speaks with her bishop.

• 28:29Vanessa Richardson?

  Lori's bishop did put a stop to her murderous thoughts. He helped her realize she had two options. She could either kill Joe and ruin her children's lives, or she could leave him behind and put all her energy into her faith. Lori chose the latter. By August 2004, the 31-year-old had divorced Joe and moved in with her parents, who'd relocated to nearby San Antonio, Texas. As part of the divorce agreement, Lori and Joe shared custody of Tylee, although it seems like little Tylee spent most of her time with Lori. The split with Joe became an empowering part of Lori's story. She talked a lot at church and in Bible study groups about how God saved her from going down a self-destructive path.

• 29:14Vanessa Richardson?

  But instead of being humbled, Lori's ego had only gotten bigger. Around this time, she started to claim that the angel Moroni was visiting her. Moroni is a key figure in LDS scripture. He's known for helping the original prophet, Joseph Smith, found the Mormon church. We don't know what Moroni was supposedly saying to Lori, but by associating with him, she was putting herself on the highest pedestal of her faith.

• 29:41Tristin Engels?

  So let's recap to understand how Lori got to this point. From a young age, she was experiencing parental neglect, alleged sexual abuse by her brother, and then intimate partner violence with three different husbands. We talked about how her childhood experiences can negatively impact her sense of self-worth and value, as well as her relationships with others. And specifically, she has a pattern so far of unhealthy and unstable relationships, not just romantically, but with her friends and her family as well. And frequent interpersonal conflict could be a sign of a personality disorder. So when Lori was feeling powerless and devalued in her relationships, it made sense for her to fixate on her religion because, like we talked about historically, it was effective in obtaining praise and admiration

• 30:26Tristin Engels?

  from her family, her church, maybe even her community. And it was a form of support for her. And now that she's divorced and has reestablished her relationship with her family, she also knows that the people within her church are more likely to believe these assertions about being chosen or special, and that's going to reinforce those beliefs within herself.

• 30:48Vanessa Richardson?

  I'm curious, in general, what kind of psychological and personality traits are associated with quote-unquote "God complex" or megalomania?

• 30:57Tristin Engels?

  Yeah, so whenever I'm evaluating someone who presents with an inflated sense of self-importance or exhibits that God complex or that megalomania, I flag it as an indication of grandiosity. The next step is to determine if it's grandiose delusions or if it's grandiose fantasies. Grandiose delusions are often associated with severe mood disorders, such as bipolar disorder or psychotic disorders, whereas grandiose fantasies are a core feature of narcissistic personality disorder. And the latter is especially true if they are also willing to exploit others for personal gain and have a chronic need for admiration.

• 31:38Vanessa Richardson?

  Despite everything Lori had been through so far, she was still open to romance. And when a new man walked into Lori's hair salon in 2005, she fell in love once again. His name was Charles Vallow. Charles was a wealthy financial planner. He had two sons from a previous marriage, both around the same age as Lori's nine-year-old son. Unlike her past partners, Charles was sweet and gentle, and he was willing to convert to Mormonism. Just a few months after meeting in February 2006, 33-year-old Lori and 50-year-old Charles got married in Vegas. This was now her fourth marriage.

• 32:20Vanessa Richardson?

  Her family didn't attend this wedding either, because they hadn't met Charles by the time it happened. But when they did get to spend time with Charles, they apparently thought he was her best husband yet.

• 32:32Tristin Engels?

  Like you said, this is her fourth marriage, and at such a young age, of course, we need to consider her religious beliefs playing a role here. But it is also worth noting, at least at this point in the story, that two traits of psychopathy include a parasitic lifestyle, which is using or exploiting others for financial gain, and having many short-term marital relationships. The latter is more frequently found in female psychopaths, as they also tend to show more histrionic traits that are used in manipulative ways.

• 33:04Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, the happiness she'd found with him made Lori rethink her past relationships, especially when it came to her kids. At some point, Lori started to believe that her last husband, Joe, was sexually abusing their daughter, Tylee, just like she believed he'd done to Colby. In August 2006, a few months after her wedding to Charles, she reported Joe to the local sheriff's department. Joe was arrested, and while the investigation unfolded, both children started going to court-appointed therapy. Colby's counselors seemed to believe his story, but Tylee's were suspicious of Lori. Apparently, they overheard Lori coaching her daughter to say certain things, like what exactly Joe had done to her.

• 33:48Vanessa Richardson?

  One counselor even heard Lori say, quote, "Death would be better than giving Tylee to her father, even for a visit." We don't know if Lori was referring to Tylee's death or her own. Either way, the counselor was gravely concerned.

• 34:04Tristin Engels?

  And with good reason. So let's talk about court-appointed therapy, especially out of family court. And the reason for that's going to vary on the situation. The most common reason a court would order therapy out of family court is due to child custody or parental fitness concerns. And given that there are allegations of abuse, the court is likely ordering therapy to assess the impact of that alleged abuse and also begin treating any associated trauma. They're also likely assessing for parental fitness due to the concerns you just described regarding child safety, not just with the alleged abuse, but with Lori's behavior. Parental coaching is unfortunately very common when it comes to family court matters,

• 34:48Tristin Engels?

  and it's deeply concerning because it's coercive and it's manipulative. And being put in the middle like this can cause a great deal of emotional distress for a child, as well as parental alienation and fear of failure. It's also giving Ty Lee this belief, this false belief, that she's been abused, and that could create some real potential issues for her later on. But having a court-appointed therapist, one who's completely objective and not hired by a parent with a personal agenda, is so important. They are experienced in recognizing parental manipulation, which is vital to assessing for these risks and ensuring the child's well-being, especially when there is concern for abuse or even crimes like false reporting.

• 35:32Tristin Engels?

  This also, though, raises concerns about Lori's honesty. If she's willing to have her child lie about abuse like that, then what else has she been lying about? What else has she made her children do for her? She knows that as children, their unconditional and their love for her and their loyalty to her. So has this happened with previous husbands as well? And it certainly makes me wonder if there's a pattern of deception.

• 36:00Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, the counselors were right to be concerned for Lori's mental health and her children's safety. But Lori wasn't the one on trial. Joe was. And ultimately, it was up to a jury to decide the outcome. When the trial ended in July 2007, they found Joe not guilty of sexually abusing Colby and Tylee. The verdict sent Lori into a full-on spiral. The sense of control she'd been gaining slipped through her fingers in an instant, and she was ready to take extreme measures just to get it back.

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• 37:43Vanessa Richardson?

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• 38:28Vanessa Richardson?

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• 39:25Vanessa Richardson?

  In July 2007, Lori Vallow's ex-husband, Joe Ryan, was found not guilty of sexually abusing her 11-year-old son Colby and their four-year-old daughter, Tylee. Lori was devastated at the outcome. She wanted Joe out of their lives for good. But now, he would still be around, allowed to have supervised visits with Tylee. So she called someone unexpected for help: her older brother, Alex. Lori and Alex had moved on from their troubled past. In fact, by this point, Lori and her brother were on friendly terms.

• 40:03Tristin Engels?

  Let's discuss that. So let's say that Alex did abuse Lori, what she alleged did occur.

• 40:10Tristin Engels?

  If he cycled between periods of being abusive with periods of showing kindness or affection, especially when he was the adult in charge, this could create a trauma bond between them. And a trauma bond is an unhealthy emotional attachment that develops between a victim and their abuser. Siblings can be susceptible to this, especially if they do not have a choice but to find a way to cope with living with their abusive sibling until they're old enough to move away. So whether or not Alex did sexually abuse Lori, they both did experience a difficult childhood, and at the very least, they may have bonded over their shared trauma, which is different from a trauma bond, but still creates an attachment.

• 40:55Tristin Engels?

  So either way, an unhealthy codependency can occur from either of those things. So this could explain why they were able to move past a difficult relationship and those difficult experiences and establish a new, strong connection that is unusual or unusually loyal in ways that are inappropriate or, as we will learn, criminal.

• 41:18Vanessa Richardson?

  One thing is absolutely for sure. Lori and her brother Alex had come a long way since they were kids, and he was prepared to do anything for his little sister. In August 2007, a month after the trial ended, Joe had a scheduled visit with Tylee in San Antonio. Lori told Alex where they would be, and Alex showed up unannounced. When he spotted Joe, he ran toward him, pulled out a stun gun, and tased him. Alex was charged with aggravated assault and spent three months in jail. It's not clear if Lori knew what Alex had planned the day he attacked Joe, but she did tell Alex where he'd be, and when Alex was released from jail, he and Lori got even

• 42:02Vanessa Richardson?

  closer. Alex was a devout Mormon as well, and it wasn't long before he was Lori's right-hand man in her constant quest for spiritual ascension. She was eager for a partner. Lori's newest husband, 51-year-old Charles Vallow, had converted to Mormonism for her, but the mainstream beliefs that Charles adopted weren't enough to satisfy her. She felt like her husband's spirituality didn't measure up to hers.

• 42:31Vanessa Richardson?

  Even so, their relationship seemed to be in good shape. In 2012, five years after Lori and Joe's court battle, she and Charles adopted his seven-week-old nephew, JJ. JJ's parents were heavy drug users and couldn't take care of him, so Lori and Charles stepped up. For a while after that, life went on as usual. Then in 2017, the Vallow moved to Chandler, Arizona, for Charles's job, and everything changed. Forty-four-year-old Lori was happy to relocate, mainly because Alex lived near Chandler. Now they would have more time to study together and develop their religious theories. Not to mention, Charles was away on business a lot,

• 43:15Vanessa Richardson?

  which meant Lori and Alex's spiraling beliefs went completely unchecked. They were delving more into doomsday prepping, known as prepping for short. It's the practice of gathering supplies to survive the end of days. By the time Lori moved to Arizona, it had recently started to gain popularity as a Mormon subculture. According to Christopher James Blyth, an assistant professor at Brigham Young University, there's a thin line between the Mormon Church's official stance on the end of days and more marginal beliefs like prepping. While church leaders and mainstream followers do believe the world is approaching the end times, possibly within our lifetimes, preppers think it's going to happen imminently.

• 44:00Tristin Engels?

  I need to talk about some similarities here that Lori has with Charles Manson. So Charles also predicted the end of times, and there has been debate regarding whether or not he even truly believed that or if it was simply a tactic of control. And of course, both, it could be both. But I can see how, like Manson, that it could be difficult for evaluators to discern genuine psychiatric symptoms from manipulation when it comes to Lori. And let me explain why. So her brother Alex attacks her ex-husband. Whether she explicitly told Alex to do that or not, the fact is she told him where he would be and when, and he knew. Of the discord between Lori and her ex-husband, as well as the allegations of abuse.

• 44:46Tristin Engels?

  And this makes me suspicious that she may have psychologically manipulated him, which is similar to Charles Manson. Charles never killed anyone, but he manipulated others too. And after the attack on her ex-husband, it's possible that Alex has now proven his loyalty and his devotion to Lori. And that is why their their attachment, their bond has strengthened. Because then she moves to Arizona, where she's closer to him. And then this is when her doomsday beliefs and her doomsday prepping begin. She's doing this with Alex and not anyone else. So could this be because she has control over him now and seeks to maintain it by radicalizing him?

• 45:30Tristin Engels?

  Is she preying on their trauma bond? Lori has a lot of what appear to be Cluster B traits that are prominent, making it really hard to differentiate. Are these delusions? Or is this just her committing to an overvalued belief that gets her admiration, loyalty, and control? She seems to fixate on these fringe beliefs whenever there is interpersonal conflict of some kind. Delusions can exacerbate when there is ongoing trauma or abuse, yes. But it's strange to me that she has something to gain from them. Attention, admiration, even money. Whenever that appears to be the case, I, in my professional capacity, will always assess for malingering

• 46:13Tristin Engels?

  or a pattern of exaggerating psychiatric symptoms.

• 46:18Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, Lori and Alex's beliefs were certainly unconventional, but their brand of prepping took things to an extreme. They started idolizing people who claimed to be Mormon prophets, but had not been recognized by the church. One such person was a novelist named Chad Daybell. He was a member of the Mormon church and self-proclaimed visionary. Like Lori and Alex, he was a prepper who had written multiple books about the end times. Chad's books were based on two near-death experiences. The first one occurred when he was a senior in high school, cliff diving into some water with his friends in Utah. At one point Chad miscalculated his jump and landed on a rock just beneath the surface.

• 47:02Vanessa Richardson?

  He felt a searing pain, then saw a bright flashing light that he believed was a glimpse into another dimension. The light soothed his pain until his friends rescued him from the water. He didn't suffer any serious injuries. The second experience was similar. This time Chad was 25 on a family trip in San Diego. He was swimming in the ocean when a huge wave pummeled him. Just like before, he saw the bright light and felt soothed until the waves spit him out. He ended up with some major cuts and bruises and had to go to the hospital, but otherwise he was fine. Now, as a 49-year-old, Chad believed those experiences had blessed him with interdimensional wisdom.

• 47:45Vanessa Richardson?

  He thought he'd been given the ability to receive messages from beyond the veil. And one of those messages was about the end of the world. Apparently, God had chosen 144,000 people to survive the apocalypse and witness the second coming of Christ. Chad didn't just receive messages, though. He also said he had visions about what the apocalypse would be like. He shared those visions in his novels, which made his books very popular in the prepping community. Lori was one of his many devoted fans. She felt like Chad's near-death experiences gave him strength, just like her abusive relationships had done for her.

• 48:27Vanessa Richardson?

  And shortly after moving to Arizona, she got the chance to meet him in person. It started when Lori befriended a 47-year-old woman named Melanie Gibb at church. The two of them bonded over their beliefs about the second coming. Lori mentioned Chad's books, and Melanie told her that she was friends with him. She even offered to introduce them. Lori was thrilled. But before she could take Melanie up on her invitation, she had to deal with some shocking news.

• 48:59Vanessa Richardson?

  In March 2018, a few months after the Vallow moved to Arizona, Lori's ex-husband Joe Ryan had a heart attack and died. Lori was listed as Joe's next of kin. Their divorce settlement had required Joe to name Lori as the beneficiary of his six-figure life insurance policy. Lori apparently couldn't wait to cash out, and she didn't care who knew it. About a week after she went to Joe's apartment, Lori was hanging out with her sister-in-law. She gleefully told her about the money she was expecting. And when she saw the concerned look on her sister-in-law's face, she said, quote, "Joe was evil and he needed to die."

• 49:43Tristin Engels?

  We've all heard or read a comment from someone expressing a similar sentiment towards someone accused of abuse or worse. And I evaluate people who have been charged with all kinds of violent offenses. And I hear and see comments like this all the time, especially from families of the victim. I mean, grief can cause all kinds of reactions. But at this point in the story, I think it's clear that this goes beyond a simple expression of anger or resentment. I mean, first, there was that previous attack on her ex-husband, which may or may not have been orchestrated by her. And she had seemingly no emotion over. And now she's expressing this in front of her current sister-in-law. So she's lacking the awareness

• 50:27Tristin Engels?

  or simply the consideration regarding how this would look or make her sister-in-law feel. Because she's currently married to her sister-in-law's brother. So this behavior is, it just presents as callous, greedy, and even just lacking empathy. And when you combine that with that parasitic lifestyle that we talked about earlier, grandiose fantasies, histrionic traits, and those short-term marital relationships, especially when there's money, she's exhibiting more and more traits of psychopathy, which may surprise some people, since it's primarily discussed in cases involving men and serial killers. But we'll dive more into that in episode two.

• 51:08Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, if Lori experienced any sadness in the wake of her ex-husband's death, well, she definitely didn't show it. Following Joe's passing, all she cared about was meeting Chad Daybell. In October 2018, seven months after Joe died, Lori and her friend Melanie Gibbs drove to Utah for a doomsday prepper conference. Chad gave a speech and hosted a book signing afterward. Lori joined the line of people eagerly seeking his autograph. When she approached the table, Chad laid eyes on her and was speechless. They were inseparable for the rest of the two-day conference. Even though they were both married, they exchanged phone numbers before leaving. Less than a day later, Chad sent Lori some stunning news.

• 51:53Vanessa Richardson?

  Apparently, angels had told him that he and Lori had been married multiple times in past lives. Most importantly, Chad reassured Lori that both of them were among the 144,000 chosen to witness the second coming. According to him, it was destiny for them to be together. But Chad wasn't just any prepper. He wasn't even just one of the chosen. He believed he had the power to determine who else was. Over time, Chad and Lori would lure each other deeper into this twisted fantasy.

• 52:30Vanessa Richardson?

  Before long, they got sick of waiting for the apocalypse and decided to unleash it themselves.

• 52:50Vanessa Richardson?

  Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next time for Lori's increasingly dangerous beliefs, the steps she took to prepare for the apocalypse, and the tragic results.

• 53:01Tristin Engels?

  Killer Minds is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on Instagram at Killer Minds, and don't forget to rate, review, and follow Killer Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference.

• 53:20Vanessa Richardson?

  And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Killer Minds ad-free, along with early access to each thrilling two-part series and exciting Crime House bonus content.

• 53:37Vanessa Richardson?

  Killer Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson, and Dr. Tristin Engels, and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Killer Minds team: Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Laurie Marinelli, Natalie Pritzowski, Sarah Camp, Sarah Bachelor, Sarah Tardif, and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening.

• 54:08Tristin Engels?

  What will you canva today? What will you brainstorm, collaborate on, present today? What will you resize, post, edit, imagine? What will you research, test, switch, and finally have the courage to pitch? You got this! What will you visualize, design, brand, animate, create, generate? What will you translate, pour your heart into, or have a laugh doing? Whatever you want to make is possible. So what will you canva today?

• 54:38Vanessa Richardson?

  If you're looking for your next podcast, check out What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.