SERIAL KILLER: John Wayne Gacy Pt. 1

Before he became one of America’s most notorious serial killers, John Wayne Gacy was a respected businessman, community volunteer, and beloved party clown in suburban Chicago. But behind the makeup of “Pogo the Clown” hid a deeply disturbed man shaped by abuse, trauma, and rage. In this first episode, host Vanessa Richardson and criminal psychologist Dr. Tristin Engels trace Gacy’s early life — from a violent childhood and secret compulsions to the first crimes that exposed his monstrous double life. Beneath the surface of normalcy, a predator was taking shape. If you’re new here, don’t forget to follow Killer Minds to never miss a case! For Ad-free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to Crime House+ on Apple Podcasts. Killer Minds is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios 🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to other Crime House Originals Clues, Crimes Of…, Murder True Crime Stories, Crime House Daily and Crimes and more wherever you get your podcasts! Follow me on Social Instagram: @Crimehouse https://www.instagram.com/crimehouse/ TikTok: @Crimehouse https://www.tiktok.com/@crimehouse Facebook: @crimehousestudios https://www.facebook.com/crimehousestudios YouTube: @crimehousestudios https://www.youtube.com/@crimehousestudios

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Hi, everyone. Before today's episode, there's another show I want to tell you about. It's called What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Plus, Connor's infectious energy that'll make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on earth. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  This is Crime House.

• 0:42Vanessa Richardson?

  From court jesters to circus performers, clowns have been a staple of entertainment for centuries. They work hard to make people laugh and smile. That's what John Wayne Gacy did. In the 1970s, John built a life of respectability for himself in suburban Chicago. He was a pillar of his community, and his neighbors were delighted whenever he put his clown costume on to spark joy in people's hearts. Little did they know, every smile and magic trick concealed the true self that lurked underneath the makeup, costume, and wig. And when the truth came out, it was more terrifying than anyone could ever imagine.

• 1:39Vanessa Richardson?

  The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is Killer Minds, a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.

• 1:54Tristin Engels?

  And I'm Dr. Tristin Engels. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer.

• 2:02Vanessa Richardson?

  Crime House is made possible by you. Follow Killer Minds and subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts for ad-free early access to each two-part series. And if you can't get enough true crime, go search and follow Crime House Daily, our team's twice-a-day show bringing you breaking cases, updates, and unbelievable stories from the world of crime that are happening right now. Before we get started, you should know this episode contains depictions of murder and sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. Today, we'll begin our deep dive into the infamous crimes of John Wayne Gacy. In the 1970s, John masqueraded as a successful businessman and passionate community leader.

• 2:46Vanessa Richardson?

  He brought smiles to children's faces with his clown act. But John wasn't the kind-hearted man his neighbors thought he was. By the time anyone realized what John did behind closed doors, he had become one of America's most prolific serial killers.

• 3:04Tristin Engels?

  As Vanessa goes through the story, I'll be talking about things like the link between head trauma and criminality, reasons why violent offenders justify their actions, and potential reasons behind a killer's methods for disposing of their victims' bodies.

• 3:20Vanessa Richardson?

  And, as always, we'll be asking the question, what makes a killer?

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• 3:59Vanessa Richardson?

  All his life, John Wayne Gacy was taught to hide his faults. He was born in Chicago, Illinois, on March 17, 1942, to a working-class family. His mother, Marion, was a homemaker, and his father, John Stanley, was an auto mechanic. The Gacy's seemed like a close-knit family working hard to endure the chaos and aftermath of World War II. But behind closed doors, John Stanley wasn't coping well with his circumstances. He was a proud World War I veteran, as well as an abusive alcoholic. John Stanley projected his strict, domineering outlook onto his son, John Wayne. He believed men should be athletic and hard-working.

• 4:43Vanessa Richardson?

  However, John Wayne, who was born with a heart condition, was overweight and couldn't keep up with rigorous physical activity. John Stanley was not only disappointed in his son's lack of natural athleticism, he was infuriated by it. John Wayne's father often called him names like "sissy," "mama's boy," and "queer." And if he was especially unhappy, he'd beat John Wayne with a thick piece of leather used for polishing razors.

• 5:12Tristin Engels?

  The way a parent interacts with a child teaches that child how to understand love, value, safety, and identity. Those early exchanges become the framework for how a child learns to relate to themselves and others. So in Gacy's case, or John Wayne's case, his father was extremely psychologically and physically abusive. He also modeled an authoritarian parenting style, which is characterized by rigid rules, harsh punishment, and very little warmth. And that combination is known to increase the risk for shame, secrecy, aggression, and antisocial behavior. And this is because children with authoritarian parents are taught obedience through fear, not understanding.

• 5:55Tristin Engels?

  So when they're in trouble, which is frequent in authoritarian parenting households, there's often little communication or connection regarding why they are in trouble to begin with. So when a child is punished but never told why necessarily, they don't learn reflection, they learn reaction. And subsequently, that often becomes their communication style later in life. And with no warmth, the message then becomes that control is how you maintain connection. And we can see how all of this can cause reduced empathy, reduced responsibility, or moral reasoning. So let's address now how his father mocked him for not fitting his image of masculinity and then physically punishing him for it. Gacy's appearance and physical or medical limitations were not something he could control.

• 6:42Tristin Engels?

  So he's constantly walking around eggshells with an authoritarian parent unsure of what will set him off or why, and whether he will be beat or psychologically tormented as a result. So when you combine that, those experiences likely created a psychological conflict because the person meant to protect him was also the source of his fear and shame. And over time, that will affect his sense of worth and distort how he understands power and attachment as well. I say all this because understanding Gacy's early childhood experiences helps us identify the developmental risk factors that contributed to his antisocial and predatory behavior later on. And it's in no way meant to minimize any of his, you know, future actions.

• 7:26Vanessa Richardson?

  And what kind of coping mechanisms might someone, a child like this, in his situation, develop?

• 7:33Tristin Engels?

  Commonly, children in homes where it feels unsafe being themselves, or they feel unsafe showing emotion, they engage in emotional suppression, meaning they hide their feelings because showing emotions has taught them that it comes with risk or consequence. And those children often develop people-pleasing tendencies or perfectionism as a result. It's about keeping the peace, finding ways to manage their parents' unpredictable moods. So when a child is punished, like I mentioned, without understanding really why, or they're being punished for things they can't control, the world becomes chaotic feeling and everything feels unsafe. So they learn to control what they can, and that's their parents' reactions through their own behavior. And that pattern is sometimes called fawning, though some find that term demeaning.

• 8:17Tristin Engels?

  So another way to describe it is adaptive appeasement. And when those strategies fail, some children turn to fantasy or deception as ways to cope. They create inner worlds where they finally feel competent, loved, valued, or in control. And in an environment like Gacy's, he's not growing up with a stable sense of self. So he will seek ways of building personas that serve a function and allow him to express emotions in ways that allow for acceptance.

• 8:47Vanessa Richardson?

  That absolutely tracks because for John, the only safe place was in his own mind. He liked to build things and would build forts out of household items where he could hide away and dream of a happier life. But John always had to come out from hiding eventually. And unfortunately, he soon learned there was no safe haven for him. In 1946, when John was just four years old, he started spending time with a 15-year-old girl who lived in his neighborhood. They would go on long walks out to a prairie where they could play in the tall grass, hidden from view. During one of these excursions, the girl sexually abused John, and it became a regular occurrence. Soon, John would continue the cycle himself.

• 9:32Vanessa Richardson?

  In 1949, when he was just seven years old, John and another boy in his neighborhood began sexually abusing a different girl. Eventually, all of John's issues came to a head. John Stanley found out about both of these situations, and he severely beat his son as punishment. John realized he couldn't count on his father for protection, so when a family friend started taking advantage of him that same year, he kept it a secret from his parents. The man was a contractor. He knew John wanted to be a builder, so he offered to show him his work. Instead, the man took John for rides in his truck and abused him.

• 10:13Vanessa Richardson?

  On top of everything he was dealing with, about two years later, John suffered a traumatizing accident. In 1953, the 11-year-old was hit in the head by a swing. He seemed fine at first, but afterward, he started having regular blackouts. For the next five years, John was hospitalized multiple times. Eventually, doctors realized there was a blood clot in his brain. We don't know what treatment John received, but he suffered permanent psychological difficulties as a result, including fragmented memories.

• 10:47Tristin Engels?

  So we know that trauma to the frontal or temporal regions of the brain can cause issues with memory formation, impulse control, and emotional regulation. But on a developing brain, it is especially serious. The neural pathways responsible for storing and sequencing memories are still maturing. So an injury like Gacy's could have disrupted the consolidation of short-term experiences into long-term memories, leading to gaps, distortions, or what's called fragmented recall. And when a child can't reliably make sense of their experiences, especially in an already chaotic or abusive environment like the one he was living in, it can cause confusion between reality, imagination, and intent. And over time, that can interfere with

• 11:31Tristin Engels?

  identity development and accountability, because memory is part of how we understand who we are and what we've done.

• 11:38Vanessa Richardson?

  Okay, so a lot of high-profile killers sustained head injuries when they were young, including Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker, who we have talked about in previous episodes. What can you tell us about the links between traumatic brain injury and criminal activity?

• 11:53Tristin Engels?

  So that's a really important question, and it's one that often gets oversimplified. Okay, so there's documented associations between traumatic brain injury and later criminal or violent behavior, but it's not a straight line from injury to crime. So research shows that people with a history of a head injury, especially injuries affecting the frontal lobe, are, like I mentioned, more likely to struggle with impulse control, emotional regulation, and decision-making. That's significant because those skills help us weigh consequences, manage frustration, and inhibit aggression. And when they're damaged, a person may become more reactive or disinhibited, leading to poor judgment and consequently antisocial

• 12:37Tristin Engels?

  behavior. But here's the key: A head injury doesn't create antisocial behavior out of nowhere. It magnifies existing vulnerabilities, things like trauma, poor attachment, or exposure to violence. So in forensic work, we often see it as one piece of a larger risk profile rather than a cause on its own. So when we look at cases like Ramirez, Gacy, or others, it's not the injury itself that makes them dangerous, it's how that injury interacted with their personality, their current environment, and any kind of history of abuse or exposure.

• 13:13Vanessa Richardson?

  John's injury made it even harder for him to become the kind of driven, successful young man his father wanted him to be. Even though his blood clot was treated, John still wasn't able to perform well in school, so at age 17, he dropped out of high school before graduating. After that, John started volunteering at the local office for the Democratic Party, performing basic office tasks. For the first time in his life, he felt useful and productive. However, John's father disapproved of what he was doing and called him a patsy. Eventually, John couldn't take his father's torment anymore, so he packed his bags and moved to Las Vegas for a fresh start. Once he arrived, he started working for an ambulance service, and eventually, that

• 13:58Vanessa Richardson?

  led John to a new job at a funeral parlor. He'd become used to being around dead bodies, which was a useful trait at a funeral home. However, at some point, John's level of ease morphed into something dark. One night, while he was working late and no one else was around, John spotted a body of a young man lying in a coffin. As he gazed at the body, he was suddenly overcome with the urge to touch it. Once he did, he wanted to be even closer, so John climbed into the coffin and lay next to the young man's body.

• 14:34Tristin Engels?

  All right, first, I want to highlight that it's normal to feel curiosity around death. Most people experience a mix of fascination and discomfort when faced with a dead body for the first time. It's how we process mortality and the reality of loss. In healthy development, that curiosity is balanced by empathy, respect, and clear boundaries. What Gacy experienced here is very different. He was already accustomed to being around dead bodies, so this went beyond curiosity and into compulsion. So let's establish context. Gacy just left his father's domineering and degrading shadow and started out on his own. So he's likely experiencing a mixture of freedom and loneliness.

• 15:17Tristin Engels?

  At home, he had connection, even if it was abusive, but now he is alone. Even at his job, he was isolated and working alone on that day. So climbing into that coffin, I think, suggests a breakdown between impulse and inhibition, between the need for closeness and the fear of rejection. In that moment, the body represented intimacy or comfort without vulnerability, because in this instance, no one could shame him, reject him, or challenge his control. Psychologically, this kind of behavior often emerges when early experiences of humiliation and emotional deprivation twist the normal need for connection into something distorted. This is about control, possession, and the temporary relief from

• 16:00Tristin Engels?

  the shame and powerlessness that Gacy had been carrying until this point.

• 16:05Vanessa Richardson?

  Does that act of getting into a coffin with a dead body have anything in common with necrophilia?

• 16:11Tristin Engels?

  It certainly overlaps with necrophilia tendencies. So necrophilia, clinically speaking, refers to a recurrent, intense sexual interest in corpses. And at the core of their interest is the need for absolute control, and they are attracted to corpses because they cannot reject, criticize, or leave. Clinically, this is often less about attraction to death itself and more about the elimination of emotional risk. The person gains a sense of dominance, predictability, or even false connection that they can achieve in reciprocal relationships. So it overlaps in that sense, but Gacy does not appear to be exhibiting recurrent or sexual interest in corpses that we know of, at least to this

• 16:53Tristin Engels?

  point. So it doesn't fit criteria for necrophilia in the clinical sense either. In fact, I don't think there's any confirmed evidence of that when it comes to Gacy, but, like I said, it overlaps when you think about underneath what's driving it.

• 17:10Vanessa Richardson?

  Does this remind you of Jeffrey Dahmer, specifically when he used a mannequin as a sex doll and he was obsessed with turning his victims into zombies who wouldn't leave him?

• 17:19Tristin Engels?

  Yes, absolutely. And actually, he was the first person I thought of. So the core of Dahmer's behavior was an intense fear of abandonment and rejection. He spoke openly about wanting complete control over his victims, not out of sadism, but out of desperation to keep them from leaving. His acts of necrophilia and cannibalism

• 17:40Tristin Engels?

  Were extreme expressions of that fear. By keeping or consuming parts of his victims, he could maintain an illusion of permanent connection even after death. So in his mind, it was a way to make intimacy unbreakable. Even the mannequins or sex dolls, they fit the same thing. They were companions who couldn't reject or abandon him. And they were always with him and always controlled. He controlled when they were available. He controlled where he put them. He controlled what they wore, what their positions were. We did four episodes on Dahmer. So if you haven't listened, it's a very deep dive and we cover all of this.

• 18:18Vanessa Richardson?

  Whatever was driving John's impulses here, after a few minutes, he came to his senses and actually jumped out of the coffin. Apparently, John scared himself with his own actions because he immediately called his mom and asked if he could move back home. Once he got back to Chicago, John wanted to find a way to feel like a normal person. So he did what many young men his age were doing and enrolled in business school. There, John discovered his knack for sales. He got a job as a clothing store manager in Springfield, Illinois, and he loved it. He also continued volunteering in his free time. Finally, John was becoming the well-adjusted working man his father always wanted him to be.

• 19:01Vanessa Richardson?

  From there, John's new job opened other doors as well. Soon, he and one of his coworkers, a young woman named Marilyn Myers, hit it off. Marilyn liked how selfless and stable John seemed to be. They dated for a little while. Then in 1964, when John was 22 and Marilyn was 20, the pair got married. Marilyn's father owned a few Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurants in Waterloo, Iowa. After their wedding, John's new father-in-law gifted him with one of the restaurants to help the young couple start their life together. John and Marilyn moved to Waterloo so he could manage it. For maybe the first time in his life, John Wayne Gacy felt truly happy.

• 19:44Vanessa Richardson?

  And that happiness only grew in 1966, when Marilyn gave birth to their first child, a son named Michael. One year later, they welcomed their daughter, Christine. The family was quickly putting down roots. John even joined the Junior Chamber International, also known as the J.C.'s, which was a leadership organization in Waterloo. By all accounts, it seemed like John had made peace with the ghosts of his past. But after those first happy years, John's family life started to resemble his own childhood. Like his father before him, John concealed his inner darkness behind the mask of a loving family man.

• 20:27Vanessa Richardson?

  However, people soon started to catch on. Members of the J.C.'s began to notice that John only hired young men at his restaurant, and he often hung out with them around town. Soon, rumors swirled about his sexuality, including allegations that John had made a pass at one of his employees. However, those who knew John didn't believe the accusations, and John was determined to not let the rumors slow him down. He even launched a campaign for president of the J.C.'s. But in reality, John was a ticking time bomb, and he was about to give in to his dangerous impulses. One day, in the summer of 1967, the 25-year-old was on his way home from work when he ran

• 21:11Vanessa Richardson?

  into 15-year-old Donald Voorhees, who was the son of a fellow J.C.'s member. They stopped to chat, and Donald told John that he was having a rough day. He and his father had gotten into an argument. John invited Donald over to his house to talk more. But once they were there, John dropped his kind, concerned act. At some point while he and Donald were talking, John put on a pornographic film, and soon things spiraled out of control. John began sexually assaulting Donald. Afterward, he told the teenage boy that what happened was just a part of growing up.

• 21:50Tristin Engels?

  When Gacy told Donald that what happened was just a part of growing up, he was essentially trying to flip responsibility off of himself. And that's common among sexual offenders. They normalize their harm, or they reframe it as mutual, consensual, or educational to neutralize their own sense of wrongdoing. What's especially disturbing in Gacy's case, because he knew what it felt like to be sexually assaulted, or humiliated, and powerless. And rather than developing empathy from that experience, or those experiences, he internalized the opposite lesson, which is that power protects you from pain. So he recreated his own trauma, but this time from a position of control.

• 22:32Tristin Engels?

  And psychologically, in his mind, this lets him maintain his self-image as a "good person," and it silences the victim by making them question their own reality or their own experience. It's manipulative, and it's calculating. And it's a way of reasserting dominance, both during and after the assault.

• 22:51Vanessa Richardson?

  How does the abuse John experienced in the past influence his behavior now?

• 22:56Tristin Engels?

  So he's now identifying with the aggressor to some degree. And that's a defense mechanism where someone who's been victimized, humiliated, or made to feel powerless unconsciously adopts traits of the person who hurt them. So instead of being the one controlled, like he was with his father, or how he was when he was sexually assaulted, he is now the one who controls them, like when he was young and he sexually assaulted someone else, and then up until this point. Only, he didn't just mimic his father's cruelty, or he didn't just mimic what was done to him. He's now framing his abuse as a part of life. And that makes it so much worse, because it goes now beyond an unconscious coping mechanism and into pathology,

• 23:39Tristin Engels?

  because it's turning into psychological comfort in being the aggressor, and consciously so. So it's not about survival anymore. It's about gratification at this point.

• 23:51Vanessa Richardson?

  John wasn't only sweeping his own harmful actions under the rug, he was also ignoring the potential consequences. After this incident, he continued to abuse Donald for months. But then, sometime around December of that year, Donald finally told his dad what was going on. A few months later, on May 10, 1968, 26-year-old John was arrested for "sodomy", which was a term for certain criminalized sexual acts that were seen as taboo at the time. In this case, it referred to John abusing Donald. When police searched John's home, they seized several pornographic films, like the ones Donald said John had shown him.

• 24:33Vanessa Richardson?

  Meanwhile, John's wife Marilyn insisted they were making a mistake. Little did she know, the police had already gathered other incriminating evidence, including a statement from another accuser, one of John's employees, 16-year-old Edward Lynch. Edward told police that sometime in August of 1967, which was around the same time as Donald's first assault, John had given him a ride home. John ended up going inside to hang out with Edward. They played pool in the basement while sharing a few beers. At some point, John proposed a bet of 50 cents per game. Edward was having fun. Plus, that was good money for him, so he agreed. However, as they got more drunk,

• 25:17Vanessa Richardson?

  John began making sexual advances. And then, he grabbed Edward, bound him with a chain and padlock, and began strangling him. John only let go when he realized he was about to kill Edward. After that, he untied him and left his house. The next day, John fired Edward from the restaurant. John denied both boys accusations, but the police didn't believe him. They charged John with sodomy as well as attempted assault. He was let out on bail, and while he awaited trial, John demanded a polygraph test, which he failed miserably. John knew this was the end of whatever good reputation he had left.

• 26:01Vanessa Richardson?

  He retracted his nomination for president of the Jaycees, but he still thought he could avoid legal consequences by playing dirty.

• 26:11Vanessa Richardson?

  In August of 1968, John contacted one of his other employees, 18-year-old Russell Schroeder, and offered him $300 to beat up Donald Voorhees as a way to scare him into dropping the charges. Russell agreed, and one month later, he tracked Donald down. The morning after the assault, a bruised and battered Donald went to the police and told them what Russell had done. Officers brought Russell to the station, and Donald was able to positively ID him. Russell immediately turned on John and said that John had paid him to beat up Donald. So, on September 9th, John was arrested for a slew of related charges,

• 26:55Vanessa Richardson?

  including "suborn perjury," which basically means he knowingly tried to persuade someone to lie. This time, John couldn't afford bail. On top of that, he was required to undergo a court-ordered psychiatric evaluation. At the hospital, doctors said John made excuses for all his actions and portrayed himself as a victim, and everyone else was out to get him. In their final report, doctors said John showed signs of antisocial personality disorder, but that he was fit to stand trial.

• 27:27Tristin Engels?

  Antisocial personality disorder is marked by a pervasive disregard for the rules, norms, and rights of others. And that's exactly what we're seeing in Gacy's behavior at this stage. People with this disorder often rationalize harm, manipulate others for personal gain, and lack genuine remorse for the impact of their actions. Individuals with antisocial traits don't typically experience guilt in the way most people do. They may regret getting caught, but not the harm itself. Gacy's pattern of deceit, his lack of empathy, and his tendency to exploit others for control are textbook features of antisocial personality disorder. Typically, to meet criteria for this diagnosis,

• 28:10Tristin Engels?

  there needs to have been evidence of conduct disorder before the age of 15, things like aggression toward people or animals, destruction of property, deceitfulness, theft, or serious rule violations. At least, that's the current criteria. While we don't have a complete record of Gacy's childhood behavior, there are reports, though, that he did lie frequently, manipulated peers, and struggled to form genuine relationships. And these could possibly have been early indicators of that same pattern of disregard for others before the age of 15.

• 28:40Speaker 04

  So antisocial traits don't emerge out of nowhere in adulthood. They're the adult continuation of longstanding behaviors rooted in early relational and behavioral dysfunction. The diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder confirmed what his behavior was already telling us.

• 28:57Vanessa Richardson?

  John seemed to abandon his victim act and pleaded guilty to sodomy. However, he may have only done that because his attorneys struck a deal with prosecutors. In exchange for John's guilty plea for that charge, the attempted assault and perjury charges would be dropped. John may have thought he was getting off easily. However, the judge still handed down the maximum prison sentence for sodomy, which was 10 years. To make matters worse, Marilyn filed for divorce and told John she would never let him see their children again. John was at rock bottom, which meant he had nowhere to go but up.

• 29:36Vanessa Richardson?

  For him, that meant creating a wholesome identity that he could use to hide the sinister truth.

• 29:49Speaker 04

  The police closed my sister's case in 2019. Last month, her killer commented on my post. "On Reddit, true crime doesn't come from journalists. It comes from the victims, the witnesses, and sometimes the suspects themselves." People post the things they'd never say out loud, anonymous, unfiltered, and completely real. And every Tuesday on Crimes of Reddit, we read them out loud. I'm Sabrina Deanna-Roga from Two Girls, One Ghost. And I'm Alexis Linkletter from The First Degree. Each week, one of us brings the most unhinged true crime stories the internet has to offer. And the other goes in completely blind. No prep, no spoilers, reacting in real time, same as you. And then we swap.

• 30:31Speaker 04

  And we pull every thread until the whole twisted picture comes into view. It's dark. It's messy. And the scariest part is that these are real stories, posted by real people. New episodes drop every Tuesday. Listen to and follow Crimes of Reddit, available now wherever you get your podcasts.

• 30:50Vanessa Richardson?

  In the fall of 1968, 26-year-old John Wayne Gacy was sent to prison for 10 years for sexually assaulting a teenage boy. After that, John's wife Marilyn divorced him and refused to let him see their two kids ever again. It was a major low point in John's life. To add to it, his father, John Stanley, died in 1969 while John was behind bars. Both of John's parents had been shocked and devastated by his crimes, so he and his father never made amends for their troubled relationship. John was beginning to feel like everything that mattered was being taken from him. However, he soon caught a break.

• 31:32Vanessa Richardson?

  After serving just 18 months, 28-year-old John was paroled. As part of his probation, he was required to move back in with his mom in Chicago. He spent four months getting reacquainted with life as a free man. Then, his mom helped him buy a house in Norwood Park Township on the north side of the city. For a time, John stayed on the right side of the law, but in February 1971, less than eight months after he was paroled, he was arrested again. Just like before, John was accused of assaulting a teenage boy, which he denied doing. He claimed the boy was a hitchhiker, and when John picked him up, he said the boy

• 32:16Vanessa Richardson?

  made advances at him.

• 32:18Tristin Engels?

  When someone with antisocial traits experiences real consequences like prison, rejection, or public humiliation, it doesn't lead to insight or remorse, as we know. Instead, it often triggers a stronger need to control how others see them. And this is especially the case for Gacy when his father saw who he truly was. He died before Gacy could resolve that, so he sought to repurpose that shame by resurrecting himself as a model citizen who is innocent and, once again, a perpetual victim. It's a narcissistic defense, and it's all about impression management. And this serves two key purposes for him: it protected his ego from more shame, and it allowed him to manipulate others into giving him Another chance.

• 33:00Tristin Engels?

  And this pattern is very common in individuals with antisocial personality disorder. They learn to read social cues well enough to imitate accountability without actually feeling it. So when Gacy says the boy, quote, "made advances at him," that's clearly not a confession of any kind. It's a deflection. He's rewriting the story. So he's the misunderstood one again and not the perpetrator.

• 33:24Vanessa Richardson?

  Why would John have risked his parole so fast by doing the same thing that sent him to jail in the first place?

• 33:31Tristin Engels?

  Well, firstly, the fact that he got paroled so quickly is infuriating enough. But people with antisocial personality disorder tend to experience an exaggerated sense of control and a reduced sense of consequence. They often believe they're smarter than the system or more persuasive than the people around them, that they can talk their way out of anything. And that mindset, combined with poor impulse control, makes the risk feel negligible compared to the gratification of acting on the urge. He's also got an established pattern of sexual deviance, which you've clearly outlined, Vanessa. And with that comes a compulsive quality. He has urges and fantasies and often experiences a psychological tension that builds around

• 34:14Tristin Engels?

  those, causing him to act on them to alleviate the tension temporarily. It becomes ritualistic for offenders like Gacy.

• 34:24Vanessa Richardson?

  John probably thought that targeting a hitchhiker with no family in the area and whose safety wasn't a priority for the police would have helped him get away with things this time. Sadly, he was right. When John's first court date rolled around, his accuser didn't show up, so all of John's charges were dropped. In addition, the arrest was never registered with the Iowa Board of Parole, which meant John got off completely scot-free.

• 34:52Tristin Engels?

  This happened too often back then. Record-keeping and inter-agency communication was not what it is today.

• 34:58Vanessa Richardson?

  I'm glad to hear that's changed. Now he was determined to regain the status and admiration he'd lost when he first went to prison. In November of 1971, 29-year-old John and his mother started a contracting business called PDM Contractors, which stood for Painting, Decorating, and Maintenance, but he called it pretty damn messy. Just like before, he hired young boys and men to work for him. John told his clients and neighbors that this helped him keep costs down while giving the boys valuable work experience. He also formed good relationships with his clients, including one man who John opened up to about his attraction to teenage boys and younger men.

• 35:40Vanessa Richardson?

  His client was not only accepting, he told John that he could pick up people looking for casual sexual encounters at the local Greyhound bus station. Many of the boys and young men were transient, traveling the country on their own. They needed money, and they could be pressured into doing things they normally wouldn't. John was intrigued. However, he also knew he had to keep himself in line, otherwise he could lose everything he'd been working toward. So, he focused on cultivating a normal, unassuming life. Soon, he met someone who helped him do that. Her name was Carol Lofgren. She and John had known each other since they were kids.

• 36:21Vanessa Richardson?

  Now Carol was a divorced, single mother of two young girls. John and Carol soon started spending all their free time together. And John decided that if he wanted this relationship to work, he'd have to be honest with Carol, for the most part. John told Carol all about his relationship with his father, and how much he regretted not being there when he died. He also told Carol about his stint in prison. Although, he said he was charged for distributing pornography of teenage boys, he didn't tell Carol the truth about what he'd really done. Maybe as a way to get ahead of the rumors about his sexuality, John confessed something else to Carol. He told her he was bisexual.

• 37:04Vanessa Richardson?

  By this point, Carol was completely smitten with John, and her kids loved him too. She didn't seem to believe he was really bisexual. If anything, he was less macho than other men his age, but that didn't bother her. With this cover in place, John finally felt comfortable pursuing his actual desires. On January 2nd, 1972, John attended a party where he got extremely drunk. He left the party and drove to the Greyhound station downtown. There, he met 16-year-old Timothy McCoy, who was passing through town. John approached Timothy and said he looked hungry. He offered to take him back to his place to make him a sandwich.

• 37:47Vanessa Richardson?

  Timothy agreed and got into John's car. Details of what happened at John's house are unclear. As John tells it, they had a few drinks, and at some point, out of nowhere, Timothy attacked him with a knife. So John defended himself, which resulted in a tussle where Timothy accidentally impaled himself and died in the process. Although another version of the story says that it was a misunderstanding, Timothy had come into John's room with the knife after making them some food and was just coming to tell him it was ready, but before he could, John attacked. However it happened, Timothy was dead. And John was scared of getting into trouble with the law again.

• 38:31Vanessa Richardson?

  So he disposed of Timothy's body in a crawl space whose entrance was located in the back of his bedroom closet. Then he cleaned up the bloody scene.

• 38:43Tristin Engels?

  When we talk about escalation in offenders like Gacy, it's rarely sudden or accidental. It's the end result of a pattern. Up to this point, Gacy was showing very opportunistic behaviors. He'd already learned that manipulation, deceit, and denial was effective. He'd faced serious consequences one time, but then essentially escaped them after. He has now a new identity with Carol, who knows partial truths. So it's believable enough that she's accepted almost the whole parts of him, but not all the parts, obviously. He's established a new footing in this community, and he's gotten comfortable again. And that often reinforces feelings of invincibility and control in offenders like him.

• 39:28Tristin Engels?

  He also had years of suppressed rage, humiliation, and a need to reclaim power. And we know sexual assault is about power and control. And now killing offers ultimate control to him. So while the act itself may have started in fear or confusion, however He wants to spin it and it could have been the case, given the drinking that had occurred. What really mattered, at least in this instance, to Gacy was the aftermath and the calm that set the stage for everything that came next because once he learned that he could kill, he could conceal and still function, the boundaries that restrained him before are now essentially gone.

• 40:07Vanessa Richardson?

  This is so fascinating. What do you make of the fact that Gacy still became a contractor, even though one of his childhood abusers was also a contractor? And he used it to be alone with John. Remember, he picked him up in his truck and under the guise of showing him how to be a contractor and then abused him. Do you think John learned some of his methods from that man?

• 40:27Tristin Engels?

  It's a really striking parallel and it's certainly possible and there's really no way to know for sure. I would say that it's significant if that abuse with the contractor was ongoing rather than a one-time occurrence, especially if the question was whether or not he learned methods specifically from that one event. And the reason why I think about that is because in some cases, there is something called repetition compulsion and that's when a person recreates aspects of a traumatic event or a relationship dynamic and not because they want to, but because their psyche is trying to master it in order to resolve the trauma. But I don't think that applies here because this was something Gacy very much wanted to do.

• 41:10Tristin Engels?

  So it's hard to say for sure if this was something that taught him this, but the role itself as contractor certainly could have allowed him to replay and in his mind, reverse the dynamics of vulnerability and dominance that defined his childhood trauma. And we do know that Gacy, like most sexual offenders, is very opportunistic. And a role like this gives him opportunity and access to victims because it's a power balance. He gets to be the employer. So there's some parallels for sure, but I don't know if it's, you know, the definitive aspect to that.

• 41:45Speaker 01

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• 42:30Speaker 01

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• 42:47Vanessa Richardson?

  In July 1972, John Wayne Gacy returned to his normal life. He and Carol got married, and she moved in with him. His new wife had no idea what was behind the closet wall. However, John couldn't hide it from Carol completely, because soon, a rancid odor began to seep throughout the house. Even their friends and neighbors who visited remarked on the smell. John told people the odor was caused by moisture buildup, and that he was working to fix it. But as the weather got warmer, the smell only got worse. Soon, Carol said it smelled like a dead animal.

• 43:28Vanessa Richardson?

  John couldn't keep ignoring the problem, but he also knew it was too risky to move Timothy McCoy's body. So one day, when Carol was out, John hand-poured concrete into the crawl space, covering the body. When Carol returned home, the smell was mostly gone. Over the next few days, she seemed to stop noticing it entirely. But that didn't stop other problems from arising in their marriage. Over the next few years, John became more preoccupied with work, and he was distant in their relationship. Not only did they stop having sex altogether, but John forbade Carol from ever going into the garage, which was his workspace.

• 44:10Vanessa Richardson?

  And he often left home in the middle of the night for work assignments. Little did Carol know, the man she knew had been taken over by someone else completely. By 1975, John had developed an alter ego he called Jack Hanley. Jack was a police officer, and John even bought a uniform and badge that he put on whenever he fell into Jack's personality. Using this persona, John went out at night in search of teenage boys and young men he could solicit sex from. It's unclear whether Jack's personality fully took over John's mind, or if it was just a game he was playing. Either way, the more time he spent as Jack Hanley,

• 44:53Vanessa Richardson?

  the more fixated John became on his sexual pursuits, and the more careless he was about hiding them. One day, Carol found a stack of pornographic magazines featuring young men. When she confronted John about it, he flew into a rage and became physically violent with her.

• 45:12Tristin Engels?

  So let's talk about this alter ego. If we recall from an earlier discussion with children raised in authoritarian households, I highlighted how some of them retreat into fantasy worlds or create different identities or personas as means of coping. This could be an extension of that. We've explored this phenomenon with other cases. Gacy's alter ego is not true dissociation in a clinical sense like dissociative identity disorder, but rather it's a psychological defense mechanism. Jack represented the parts of himself that he couldn't accept. The alter possessed all the traits his father had shamed and condemned. And by giving those traits a separate name and identity,

• 45:55Tristin Engels?

  which, again, we talked about earlier, Gacy would indulge them while protecting the image of John, the respectable husband and businessman. When he put on that police uniform, it was symbolic power. Pretending to be law enforcement gave him a sense of authority, legitimacy, and permission to dominate. And when Carol discovered those magazines, she threatened that whole persona, that whole side of him. Her confrontation forced him to face the contradiction between the person that he pretended to be, that everyone else saw, and the one who really is. And that exposure triggered rage, not just at her, but at the parts of himself he hated, which I believe resulted in the violence towards her.

• 46:39Vanessa Richardson?

  Thinking back to the beginning of the episode, we talked about John when he was young and he had that head injury and the blood clot in his brain. How does his behavior now and his psychology relate back to that fragmented memory that occurred then?

• 46:53Tristin Engels?

  Yeah, great question. It's absolutely possible that Gacy's early head injury played a role in this. And if you recall, we talked about how traumatic brain injuries, especially those affecting the frontal or temporal lobes, can disrupt memory formation, impulse control, and emotional regulation. His early reports of blackouts and memory gaps suggest his sense of continuity was already potentially compromised. Over time, he may have learned to tolerate disconnection, to mentally separate one version of himself from another. So when we see him creating this Jack Hanley persona, it may have felt natural to him. His brain and his psyche were already conditioned to operate in pieces because of this brain

• 47:33Tristin Engels?

  trauma, possibly, but also because of the psychological trauma as well. Then you also have to consider the antisocial and narcissistic defenses that we also discussed, like denial, rationalization, externalization of blame, victimhood, because they contribute to this as well. So the head injury certainly could have weakened aspects of memory, identity, or moral reasoning, but the other elements, I think, really shaped who he would become or is becoming, because so many people have head injuries or blood clots, but lack all of these other psychological or environmental factors, and they don't go on to harm anyone.

• 48:12Vanessa Richardson?

  John was spiraling out of control and soon his behavior started escalating again. He began soliciting one of his 16-year-old employees, Tony Antonucci, for sex. Tony was always uncomfortable and refused, and each time John pretended he was just joking. At some point, Tony got injured and had to take some time off work. While he was recovering at home, John went to visit him. Apparently, Tony was an avid wrestler, so John challenged him to a playful match. Tony declined, but John insisted. When Tony still refused, John quickly pulled out a pair of handcuffs and fastened them to Tony's wrists.

• 48:54Vanessa Richardson?

  Then he started undressing him, but Tony fought back. Somehow, he wriggled out of the handcuffs and put them on John. After that, John apologized. It does seem like Tony continued to work for John, but John never made advances at him again. However, his sexual urges were as strong as ever, and now John Wayne Gacy refused to let anyone else stop him.

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• 50:15Vanessa Richardson?

  By the summer of 1975, 33-year-old John Wayne Gacy was deep into his double life. He was a contractor by day and a predator by night. John would assume the persona of a police officer named Jack Hanley when he went out at night in search of his next target. And when John's 16-year-old employee, Tony Antonucci, fought off his unwanted advances, John became more insatiable than ever. John's nighttime excursions became more frequent, but he also made sure to only target boys and young men who were the most vulnerable, especially those who were in need of money. He regularly visited a Greyhound bus station in downtown Chicago to solicit sex.

• 51:00Vanessa Richardson?

  But it seems like all the money John was spending on these encounters was making it harder for him to pay the people who worked for him at his contracting business. And on July 31, 1975, one of those employees finally got fed up. 16-year-old Johnny Butkovich had been waiting on his paycheck. John had taken so long to pay him, Johnny was finally getting mad. So that evening, he rounded up some friends and brought them to John's house. When they got there, Johnny said he and his friends were gonna beat John up if he didn't pay him. John managed to talk them down and buy himself some time. Johnny and his friends left, but John was left feeling angry and amped up.

• 51:45Vanessa Richardson?

  So he got into his truck and drove about 15 miles to Washington Square Park, where Johnny had just dropped off his friends. He flagged Johnny down and asked him to come back over so they could keep talking things out. Johnny agreed and got into John's truck. Once they were back at his house, they started drinking. Soon Johnny was angry again and threatened to beat John up himself.

• 52:12Vanessa Richardson?

  That's when John grabbed his handcuffs and forced them onto Johnny's wrists. He said he wouldn't take them off until he sobered up. But Johnny only thrashed and screamed. And that's when John knew he'd never resolve things with his employee if he didn't take drastic steps. John swallowed down some scotch. Then he grabbed some rope, put it around Johnny's neck, and strangled him to death. Afterward, he dug a hole in his garage where he buried Johnny's body before covering the hole with cement.

• 52:48Tristin Engels?

  So Gacy seems to have an established method and pattern. He targets minors, which are a vulnerable demographic as it is, but he specifically targets minors employed by him. They're dependent on him. He is their authority figure in one setting, which is work, making them particularly susceptible and vulnerable to him. He uses alcohol because it's powerful at disinhibiting both himself and his victims. It blurs boundaries, dulls fear, and impairs judgment and reasoning. It also likely made the assaults feel less deliberate in his own mind, especially when you consider how he framed his first murder. It's another way to rationalize his behavior when in reality it was premeditated.

• 53:31Tristin Engels?

  The handcuffs allowed Gacy to become the authority figure, something he lacked for most of his life, which explains why he chose to impersonate an officer at times, even though it wasn't his primary way of luring victims. His Jack Hanley persona certainly allowed for this and reinforced this. As for burying the bodies in his own crawl space, that speaks to his profound denial and compartmentalization. Most offenders go to great lengths to distance themselves from evidence, with the exception of some, like, let's say, Jeffrey Dahmer. Gacy literally lived on top of his crimes in a perverse way. And if you want to get really psychoanalytic about it, that crawl space could have functioned

• 54:14Tristin Engels?

  like his unconscious, a physical manifestation of everything he refused to face about himself. Together, I think these elements tell us that Gacy's crimes at this point were about possession and containment.

• 54:28Vanessa Richardson?

  John was unfortunately correct that authorities either wouldn't care about boys from less affluent homes going missing, or that police just didn't have the resources to investigate those disappearances. Can you give us some insight on this unfortunate phenomenon and the fact that John took advantage of it?

• 54:45Tristin Engels?

  It showcases just how opportunistic John Gacy was. He preyed upon that to his advantage. It's unfortunately true that disappearances involving young men from working class or marginalized backgrounds were often overlooked or under investigated. In the 1970s, missing person reporting systems were fragmented, communication between jurisdictions was limited, and many police departments were under-resourced. Much like inter-agency communication was a problem as well. But there was also a social bias occurring, too. Young men who were transient, who'd left home or were part of the emerging gay community, were often dismissed as runaways. There wasn't the same urgency or empathy that we would expect today, and even today,

• 55:29Tristin Engels?

  I think at some point, that empathy isn't where it should be. That indifference created exactly the kind of gap someone like Gacy could exploit. He understood who would and wouldn't be missed and by whom, and he preyed upon it.

• 55:45Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, if John thought that Johnny's parents wouldn't report him missing, he was wrong. However, he may have also thought a step further. Within a couple of days, police were at his doorstep, asking about Johnny. John played innocent. He told the officers that he and Johnny had a dispute over money, but they had settled their differences. The officers seemed to believe him, and since Johnny was from a poorer background, they eventually deemed him a runaway and closed their investigation into his disappearance. John was right, and his reputation was still intact, at least for now. But the truth was, PDM Contractors was struggling financially. Johnny hadn't been the only one wondering

• 56:27Vanessa Richardson?

  where his paycheck was, and soon, the financial strain started to affect John's household. He and Carol started arguing more frequently over money. All the strain forced John to slap on a smile and put his best foot forward. Throughout the rest of 1975, John became more involved with his community. Mainly, he started volunteering as a clown. Under the name Pogo, he performed at children's birthday parties and hospitals.

• 56:56Tristin Engels?

  This is another emerging persona or alter, though a very performative one.

• 57:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, if John was trying to convince his neighbors he was a stand-up member of the community, it worked. Eventually, he was elected secretary treasurer of the township. In other people's eyes, John Wayne Gacy was a good guy, someone to trust. Meanwhile, his home life was crumbling. In 1976, he and Carol divorced, and she and her two daughters moved out. On the outside, it may have seemed like John was spiraling due to heartbreak. He started drinking more than ever and mixing alcohol with pills. However, he probably wasn't sad. He was living it up.

• 57:42Vanessa Richardson?

  With Carol and the girls out of the house, he was free to do as he pleased. John started going out more frequently to search for boys and young men. He wasn't just going to the Greyhound station anymore. He was scouring the city for his next victim. He'd lure vulnerable targets with promises of a warm place to stay, a hot meal, or a contracting job that could earn them some extra cash.

• 58:07Tristin Engels?

  And these are more examples of opportunistic predation and exploitation.

• 58:12Vanessa Richardson?

  But, once they got back to his house, John plied his victims with alcohol before handcuffing them against their will, sexually assaulting them and strangling them to death. Then, he'd bury them in the crawl space or the garage. Sometimes, John's neighbors heard crying and screaming from his house, but no one ever alerted the authorities. John was well-liked, so nobody considered something could be wrong. People didn't think John would actually hurt someone. It's possible that when they heard screams, they figured someone got injured during a contracting job, especially since they knew John was digging trenches under his home. He told his neighbors he was "replacing the pipes."

• 58:57Tristin Engels?

  Humans are wired to trust familiarity and reputation. When someone appears respectable, successful, or well-liked, our brains take that as evidence of character. It's the halo effect, the tendency to assume that one positive trait like charm, attractiveness, or competence means a person must also be moral and trustworthy. That bias is amplified in communities where reputation matters. Gacy presents as a volunteer, a business owner, and a neighbor who hosts barbecues. So the people in his community also have, at least in their eyes, social proof of his "character." If everyone else seems to trust him, then they feel it should be safe doing the same.

• 59:40Tristin Engels?

  The problem is that once a person is established as "good," we can unconsciously filter out evidence that doesn't fit that characterization. Warning signs can get rationalized, much like they did right here, even with very clear evidence that something must be wrong. Gacy exploited that perfectly. He understood that he looked like the kind of person no one would suspect. There's also possibly an element of the bystander effect here. Hearing screams and crying, it's possible that some neighbors assumed that someone else would act on that, maybe call for help, and therefore, that might be why they did not. Not just through relation bias, but also through the bystander effect.

• 1:00:24Vanessa Richardson?

  John knew he was able to act with impunity. And by the end of 1976, he had killed at least nine more victims. He was also growing more sadistic with his crimes. Sometimes, he tortured his victims for hours before taking their lives. At the same time, John let a few of his victims go. Each time he did this, he told them that if they went to the police, no one would believe them. None of them reported what happened. Soon, John started taking trophies from the people he killed. In 1977, he kidnapped and murdered 19-year-old John Schittz. John not only kept Schittz's high school ring, but he kept his car,

• 1:01:08Vanessa Richardson?

  a 1971 Plymouth Satellite. After this, John became even more confident. By the end of 1978, the 36-year-old had claimed over two dozen lives. Soon, he started to wonder if he didn't have to be so careful about choosing his victims after all. Soon, he set his sights on another teenage boy. This boy wasn't his typical victim. He was from a well-to-do family with everything going for him. In the eyes of John Wayne Gacy, that meant there was even more for him to take away. But the more confident John became, the more his true colors started to show.

• 1:01:51Vanessa Richardson?

  Soon, he was trapped under a magnifying glass, and the world would see what was hidden behind his smile.

• 1:02:12Vanessa Richardson?

  Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time as we conclude our deep dive into the crimes of John Wayne Gacy.

• 1:02:19Tristin Engels?

  Killer Minds is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on Instagram at @crimehouse. And don't forget to rate, review, and follow Killer Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference.

• 1:02:38Vanessa Richardson?

  And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Killer Minds ad-free, along with early access to each thrilling two-part series and exciting Crime House bonus content.

• 1:02:56Vanessa Richardson?

  Killer Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson, and Dr. Tristin Engels, and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Killer Minds team: Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Sarah Camp, Sarah Bachelor, Meredith Allen, Sarah Tardif, and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening.

• 1:03:28Speaker 07

  Did you know a volcano once blocked out the sun and accidentally gave us Frankenstein? Or that the most feared pirate in the Atlantic, the man who terrorized an entire ocean, may never have actually killed anyone? Hi, I'm Connor Tomlinson. You might know me from Love on the Spectrum. History is my thing, and has been my whole life.

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  And I'm Carter Roy, and this is What the Fact. Every week, we take three of the wildest true things ever recorded and tell you the whole story behind them. The facts that sound made up, the stories that got buried, the moments that changed everything.

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  Happy Halloween, Crime House listeners. I'm Vanessa Richardson. Did you know horror films like Abigail and Sinister were based on true stories? Join me every Sunday this month on Crime House 24/7 for Crime House of Horrors, where I dive into four stories behind some of our favorite scary movies. From Abigail, The Autopsy of Jane Doe, Sinister, and The Taking of Deborah Logan, you'll find one thing in common: the truth is scarier than fiction. Listen every Sunday on Crime House 24/7 or join Crime House Plus for all four right now, ad-free. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or at CrimeHousePlus.com.

• 1:05:16Vanessa Richardson?

  If you're looking for your next podcast, check out What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.