What’s it like to fly when you’re fat?

One of the most routine and uncomfortable miracles many of us experience, flight. Airplanes have gotten increasingly more cramped and less comfortable. What’s it like flying as a fat person, all the invisible negotiations and strategizing. Audio Producer Ronald Young, Jr. reports on the experience, and why it’s been changing. Check out Weight For It https://open.spotify.com/show/5Zoq7RRztAb639G8jCIRgz! (We recommend you begin at the beginning, with episode one https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-perfect-moment/id1686599391?i=1000624720313.) If you want to support Search Engine, you can sign up to be a premium subscriber over at searchengine.show https://www.searchengine.show/join.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01PJ Vogt?

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• 1:34Speaker 01

  Check, check, check, check, check. Rolling on my end.

• 1:37PJ Vogt?

  Okay. All right, here's the intro.

• 1:39Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:40PJ Vogt?

  Welcome to Search Engine. I'm PJ Vogt. No question too big, no question too small. This week, a question about bodies. The only body I've ever been trapped inside of is my own. There's a lot of places this show goes, taboos, uncomfortable thoughts we like to explore. Bodies and their weight? Not a place we have visited.

• 2:04PJ Vogt?

  Which is not for lack of thinking about it. It's funny, if you made a chart of the things I talk about versus the things I think about, I think about my own body, its weight, the ways it is aging, so much more than I ever talk about it. And I wonder often about other people, not what it's like to live in their bodies, not what it would be like to be bigger or smaller, but more, what is the conversation their mind is having with and about their body? Is it as loud as mine, this persistent, this strange? This week, we're visiting other minds and other bodies. We're gonna ask a question I've wondered about, and honestly, I always felt nervous,

• 2:46PJ Vogt?

  like it'd be a little too impolite or direct to ask about. If you have a big body, what is it like to get inside one of the most cramped, small, uncomfortable spaces we all have to wedge into? What's it like to get on an airplane? The world of that question is much richer and deeper than I would have thought. Cool?

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's good. That's good. Are you, are you concerned about saying fat?

• 3:13PJ Vogt?

  Yeah, I feel like, am I allowed to say fat? Ronald Young Jr., he's a podcaster, a writer. He thinks about this stuff.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  I love, let me tell you, it's, it's funny because like this is the toughest conversation for me to have because the truth is, we are trying to make fat just a flat descriptor, but so much damage has been done using the word fat as an insult that it's tough to hear straight-sized people say it, and it's tough for straight-sized people to say it without adding some sort of like disclaimer or apology in the beginning of the end of it, but it is okay to say fat. It is, but the way you said it is also fine. I just wanted you to know that's okay. And it's tough to start getting out there and saying it because it means you have to purge it from your language as an insult.

• 4:01PJ Vogt?

  Ronald has a podcast called Wait For It, where he writes stories and interviews people about their bodies, usually about fatness. Listening to Wait For It, it doesn't exactly feel like eavesdropping on somebody else's experience. You more feel like you've just been let into a very private club. It's the thing I look for in art, the thrill of inhabiting someone else's mind. When I first heard about his show, I wasn't sure I'd want to listen to an entire series about weight. But then I realized weight here was just a lens. Like, everything I liked, the show wasn't just about the thing it said it was about.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  You know, it's funny, like, in my mind, when I started making it, I had a few things that I knew I specifically wanted to talk about. And I didn't think about anything outside of those couple of things. And in the first season, I knew I wanted to talk about going to the doctor. I knew I wanted to talk about my relationship with my college, we'll say, sweetheart. And then I knew I wanted to talk generally about how I felt about influencers. I knew I wanted to talk about those things. But what I found is that as I started making the show, you know, the more questions I was asking and answering, the more stories and answers were coming to my brain.

• 5:12PJ Vogt?

  Yeah.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Which created more stories and more opportunities to talk about it. So I found that while making the show, I, like you, was having the same experience where I'm just like, there's still more things to talk about. And I just keep pushing that direction and more stories keep coming up.

• 5:28PJ Vogt?

  I wanted to ask you about this question in particular. Like, you're covering, like, the world of the fat experience. You could talk about anything, and you talk about it a lot. Like, you talk about dating. You decided to cover airplanes. You know that that is, technically, the search engine owns that beat. No podcast is really supposed to talk about airplanes.

• 5:49Speaker 01

  Listen, man, I thought you would share a little bit with me. I thought I'd just get in there a little bit. There's plenty, plenty of room for all of us on the airplane, I thought.

• 5:57PJ Vogt?

  How did you decide you wanted to talk about airplanes?

• 6:00Speaker 01

  Uh, you know... I mean, I've, I've, I've flown more over the years. Like, the last five years has probably been the majority of the flying I've done in my life.

• 6:10PJ Vogt?

  Okay.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  So it's, it's, it's all encompassed in the last five years. Uh, and also in the last five years is the biggest I've been in my life. So interacting with planes has been a little bit different. And I, I don't even have the experience that some people who are even bigger than me have by, uh, getting on a plane. But I do know that there is a very specific experience that you have when you are big and going to fly. Uh, everything from the anxiety of thinking about going through security to the anxiety of getting to your seat, seeing who you're sitting next to and wondering if the seatbelt's gonna fit. And I felt like these were questions that I was hearing within fat community from other folks. And it felt like it was just important to tackle because flying sucks for everyone, yet the scapegoat always seems to be fat people.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  So I really wanted to unpack that.

• 6:58PJ Vogt?

  I'm gonna let Ronald take it from here. His story begins with a woman he spoke to. She was on her way to a beach vacation. All she had to do was survive the flight there.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  I mean, the hope is that no one sits next to you, like regardless of your size. I don't know anyone who's like, oh, goodie, a stranger's gonna get to be really cozy with me for a while.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  This is Bridget McDonald. She's talking about a flight she took to South Carolina in the summer of 2023.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  So you kind of do that thing where you're like, you have the arm messed up. You're like rooting through your purse in the middle seat. People are passing, you're not making any eye contact. You are, oh my God, you, you've never been more interested in the thing that's at the bottom of your purse. You know what I mean?

• 7:42Speaker 01

  She flew Southwest, which was her go-to airline. Southwest has what's called an open seating policy, which allows folks to pick the seat they want when they get on the plane. Bridget had chosen a seat that she liked.

• 7:54Speaker 02

  I was the second row from the bathroom, so we're not talking about like prime real estate. I got in the window seat as I always do. I put my little seatbelt extender, no one was back there with me yet.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  As the plane began to fill up, the flight attendants announced that people would need to move their bags from the middle seat. Bridget could no longer feign a search inside her purse.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  So I put my bag underneath the seat. I was buckled in. A man sat next to me in the aisle. There was a seat between us. You can tell that it's like the end of boarding and flight attendants are closing the overhead compartments.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  It looked like Bridget had succeeded. No one else was boarding and she had an empty middle seat between her and her neighbor on the aisle.

• 8:36Speaker 02

  And so I was like, great, cool. Nobody sitting between us. And I looked, I kind of like looked over at the guy next to me and was like, all right, look sick. And I felt like awesome, like zero anxiety, not a care in the world.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  Bridget is describing one of the best feelings ever, and I am not exaggerating. One day I was headed out on vacation with friends who sat in a different row in between strangers and somehow I got a seat in the empty row. My friend Travis looked at me and said, you just won the lottery. For me, it was even better than flying first class because I didn't have to pay more for the experience. But also as a fat person, having an empty seat next to you on a flight means more than just comfort. It means less anxiety and less physical stress on your body.

• 9:24Speaker 02

  The main anxiety that I have does come from concerns about who's going to sit next to me. I'm like, dang, is somebody going to be sitting next to me that like, I'm going to have to be like rigor mortis my muscles so that I don't touch them and it's going to be awkward. Are they going to be somebody who's just like, cool?

• 9:41Speaker 01

  This experience of rigor mortising your muscles is very familiar for me. It's something I've done on many flights. Unlike Bridget, I prefer an aisle seat with a movable armrest because I'm not just fat, I have broad shoulders. So even if my stomach were smaller, I'd still be touching my neighbor. Sitting in the aisle allows me to lean slightly into the aisle and away from the person I'm sitting next to. But Bridget didn't have to worry about any of these contortions. She was settling in for what should have been an easy flight.

• 10:17Speaker 02

  So I'm, I'm sitting in my seat and I'm like, this is awesome. I'm about to be on vacation on a beach. No one's sitting next to me, feeling good, riding high. And then I see the gate agent who checked our boarding passes. I see her board the plane and I don't know what they're checking for exactly, but like they're, they're doing their job. They're doing some things, they're checking their stuff. So I wasn't really that phased. And then the gate agent came back towards the flight attendant that was in the back. They were talking and I just noticed them talking and I feel like they're looking at me. And I was like, don't get in your head, Bridgette. And they're kind of having like, not a disagreement, but they're going back and forth. And then I see the flight attendant say, no one is going to sit next to her.

• 11:02Speaker 02

  And all of a sudden, the gate agent's walking towards me and her look on her face is like, I want to do this, but okay. So she's walking over and she goes, ma'am, could, could I speak with you off the plane? Off the plane.

• 11:18Speaker 02

  Everyone is boarded. And I was like, oh my gosh. So then I start thinking to myself, has someone died? Is this like, am I getting like, has something gone wrong? Like, and so I'm like, should I bring my stuff? And she says, no, no, you can leave your stuff. And then I'm like, okay, what?

• 11:33Speaker 01

  Now, mind you, Bridgette was sitting at a window seat, two rows away from the bathroom at the back of the plane. Her getting off would require her seatmate getting up to let her out. Then a long walk from the back of the plane to the front of the plane with everyone looking, wondering and judging as she walked by.

• 11:52Speaker 02

  And for any person at all, but especially like a plus size person who has been on a plane before, you know, I'm doing the like side like crab kind of walk. I'm like trying to like swish my hips so that they're not like getting in everybody's face from the back of the plane.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Bridgette followed the gate agent to the desk where they were joined by another gate agent, a man.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  And I was like, can you just tell me what's going on?

• 12:15Speaker 02

  And, and I'm going to be honest with you, I knew. Like in my heart of hearts, I was like, this has something to do with my size and I knew it.

• 12:24Speaker 02

  And she said,

• 12:27Speaker 02

  "The flight attendant in the back of the plane wants you to be de-boarded and re-boarded as per our customer of size policy."

• 12:36Speaker 02

  And she was like, "To be honest with you, I didn't even really see a problem when I boarded the plane and saw you." But she insisted.

• 12:44Speaker 02

  And so, the tears are coming. I can feel them coming. They're welling up. And this poor, this poor guy, this male gate agent was like, "I don't even really think you're big like that." And I looked at him and I was like, "Oh, I am. I'm big. But that's not illegal. I mean, that's not, I can board a plane and be big." And then I said, "Is someone not able to board because of me?" And they said, "No." So, is someone complaining about my size? The flight attendant.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  And then I started freaking out. Like, I'm about to fly on a plane with someone who, in theories, one of the people responsible for my safety, has decided that I need to be de-boarded and re-boarded for no reason other than just being labeled as fat. I just am, I don't. And I started to feel like, "Should I get back on this plane?"

• 13:39Speaker 01

  Bridget had already been on the plane, already settled in her seat, but then removed from the plane and humiliated because she was fat. Nobody would have blamed her if she decided not to get back on. But she did. The gate attendant officially reserved the seat next to Bridget as per the Southwest customer of size policy, and then walked her back down the jet bridge and on to the plane.

• 14:06Speaker 02

  She apologized several times. And she apologized at one point and said, "There is one flight attendant that's deadheading on this flight."

• 14:15Speaker 01

  Deadheading is the term used when a flight attendant or pilot travels as a passenger on a flight to another location to work on a subsequent flight.

• 14:23Speaker 02

  "And I am going to walk you back down and make damn sure that they do not sit next to you." Because they could have chosen still to sit next to me.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  We don't know exactly why the flight attendant wanted Bridget to reserve the seat next to her as per the customer of size policy. But based on this interaction with the gate agent, my speculation is that the flight attendant who was deadheading didn't want to sit next to Bridget. But since that was the only available cabin seat on the flight, that's where they would have to sit. But if that seat were taken, then they would be able to sit in one of the available jump seats away from the main cabin. We don't know this for sure because Southwest never responded to Bridget's complaint that she would file later. Nevertheless, the gate agent wanted to confirm that after all this trouble, nobody would be sitting next to Bridget.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  I reboarded the plane. I had been crying. I put my hat down. I do the crab walk back through the, what feels like 100 rows. I get to my seat. The gentleman on the aisle stands up. I get back in my seat. I buckle it up. I face the window. I put my hat down and I cried for the better part of the next 75 minutes of this flight.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  Bridget made it to her destination safely without further incident. And until I asked her to tell me the story for Wait For It, hadn't planned on talking about it again. I asked her why, and this was her response.

• 15:56Speaker 02

  I'm sorry, I felt like talking about it would like open people up for commentary on me being fat. And I've done like a pretty good job up to this point in my life to not really like invite or welcome that in. And I was just feeling really, um, I mean, I was humiliated.

• 16:29Speaker 02

  I think it's probably because I, there's part of me that did feel like it was my fault. There's probably part of me that thinks like, it is your fault. You are fat.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  Bridget's story is my worst nightmare. Being marched off a full plane, then back on with everyone's eyes on you, people likely blaming you for the flight being delayed. She said it herself, it was humiliating. And I can relate to her tendency to blame herself. I assume that most things are my fault because I'm fat, even more so when it comes to flying. And these humiliating stories aren't uncommon.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  I've heard many horror stories about being fat and flying, even though it's risky to tell them because sharing these stories opens fat folks to further humiliation. It feels like everyone agrees with the voice inside Bridget's head and inside my head. Well, it is your fault because you are fat. But I don't think that fat folks should be the scapegoat for a problem that we didn't create.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  So who is to blame? That's after the break.

• 18:12PJ Vogt?

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• 19:20PJ Vogt?

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• 20:39Speaker 01

  That is the sound of my phone going through an X-ray machine and of me gathering my stuff, putting it back into the bags and in my pockets, and restacking the bins. Then I could put my shoes back on. All right.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Finally got through security. I'm currently at Austin Airport.

• 21:03Speaker 01

  There are two anxieties I have during flying specifically. One of them is, uh... Crap, where's my ticket? Yeah, okay. One of them is going through security. And the second is physically getting on the plane.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  Typically, what happens is that, uh... You know, I'm just like generally anxious about what it's gonna take to get my shoes off, my jacket off. Am I wearing a hat? Did I wear the right shoes?

• 21:41Speaker 01

  Unpack everything.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  If I can take a flight without a major incident like what happened to Bridget, then it's a success. But I spend a lot of time avoiding minor incidents when I take plane trips. Minor incidents like being groped on my chest and crotch by TSA because I have man boobs and my stomach hangs low and the X-ray machine reads my body as me hiding prohibited items. Minor incidents like the flight attendant making a grand show of getting me a seatbelt extender when I surreptitiously ask for one as I get on the plane. Minor incidents like bumping into someone as I try to walk down the narrow aisle to my seat. Minor incidents like seeing the concerned face of someone who realizes that they're sitting next to me.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  So if I sound anxious in the tape you just heard, it's because I am anxious and I just want to walk off the plane at my destination having not been humiliated.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Everything I do at an airport and on the flight is to draw the least amount of attention to me as possible so that I don't get marched off the plane. I have to shrink myself.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  Recently, I read a book that I felt characterized my experience flying very accurately. It's called What We Don't Talk About When We Talk About Fat. And the name of the chapter was Into Thin Air. Here's a passage.

• 23:24Speaker 03

  I had long since learned that any free space belonged to the thin. My arms were already crossed tight over my chest, thighs squeezed together, ankles overlapped beneath my seat. My body was knotted, doing everything it could not to touch him, not to impose its soft skin. I folded in on myself, muscles aching with contraction.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  That, of course, is...

• 23:50Speaker 03

  Aubrey Gordon, my pronouns are she, her, and hers. I've written a couple of books, both What We Don't Talk About When We Talk About Fat, and You Just Need to Lose Weight, and 19 Other Myths About Fat People. Those are books that I wrote after writing anonymously for several years under the name Your Fat Friend. And now I co-host a podcast with Michael Hobbes called Maintenance Phase.

• 24:14Speaker 01

  I've followed Aubrey's work for many years and was very excited to talk with her about air travel as she's talked and written about it extensively. We talked quite a bit about what she does when she flies in order to shrink herself.

• 24:27Speaker 03

  I try not to drink very much water, so I don't have to go up and go to the bathroom. I also know that my mouth gets dry sometimes, so I bring a lot of mints, so I don't have to ask for drinks, which also means reaching over the row, and again, reminding them that there's a fat person here who's making them physically uncomfortable in some way, right? I bring my own seatbelt extender, and I check for it as often as I check for, you know, my phone, or my boarding pass, or my wallet, right? I have a very specific posture and I feel like most fat people I know who fly have similar sort of postures for themselves. I use one hand to grab the opposite elbow so that my arm,

• 25:09Speaker 03

  so that as little of my arm as possible is in anything that anyone else could interpret as their space, right? So I end up sort of with my back twisted and my elbow pulled off to one side for, for most of the flight. It's not super comfortable.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  Aubrey's doing the same thing I'm doing, attempting to avoid a crab walk to the front of the plane, doing whatever we can do to make sure our neighbor is comfortable and doesn't complain. Because if they get the flight crew involved, trouble could arise.

• 25:44Speaker 03

  When someone near you asks to be reseated, it's usually after everyone else is in their seats. And the whole plane becomes like a theater, right? And everyone's just watching this one thing play out. And you just become aware that there are like hundreds of people around you who understand exactly what's happening. And don't even feel compelled to check in with you and see how you're doing. People just silently watch and it feels like the clearest referendum that I get, that like, not one of these people on this plane

• 26:24Speaker 03

  is thinking of me as a human being who is deserving of their compassion. You know, they're just watching it play out and thinking, I would feel the same way, or whatever they're thinking. But none of that has to do with, I wonder if that person's okay, or this is terrible. And this person shouldn't have to experience this.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  That is a terrible feeling that nobody should have to experience.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  But I feel like it's important to state that even without incident, flying is generally a terrible experience. I remember during a recent trip, I was sitting in my seat and as I watched the rest of my traveling companions trudge past me to their seats, I realized that no one seemed to be having a good time. It could be the first leg of a trip that ends in a vacation. They could be headed to see their loved ones or family or to collect a million dollars. No matter the destination, most people had expressions of some level of irritation.

• 27:24Speaker 04

  People talk about like the cattle car experience or being in the Greyhound bus of the sky. And, and I think that's how a lot of people feel when they're flying. They're just kind of being marched onto the plane and, and forced into their little pens and then marched off and barked at and nobody loves that. It's not a great time.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  That is Hannah Sampson. She's a staff writer for The Washington Post.

• 27:52Speaker 04

  And I've been writing about travel in general for about 14 years.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  Hannah has written a lot over the years about airlines making changes in their services and amenities, and I wanted her to tell me the general state of air travel and what flying was currently like for most travelers.

• 28:07Speaker 04

  What it's like to fly right now is cramped, busy, crowded. It's generally safe, but it is not, in many cases, a pleasant experience. Airlines have been cramming more people onto flights. So the chances of getting, you know, an empty seat next to you when you fly or stretching out with extra legroom are pretty low.

• 28:32Speaker 01

  If you've flown recently, this isn't exactly breaking news. But what bothers me is that the conversations I've heard about flying have often included straight-sized people complaining about sitting next to a fat person as an additional frustration of flying, as if we're just another thing contributing to cramped spaces in planes instead of people who are sharing this experience with you. Aubrey Gordon again.

• 28:58Speaker 03

  That is a culturally acceptable way of processing our frustration with flights or feeling out of sorts when we got off a plane or whatever. It's totally fine to say there was a crying baby or there was a fat person. Right? That becomes our way of expressing frustration and no one tells us not to, generally speaking. So we just sort of keep doing it rather than anyone going, hey, wait a minute. If you were uncomfortable, what if the seats had been different? What if you just had more space?

• 29:28Speaker 01

  But that's often not a question that comes up because like Bridgette said earlier, it feels like it's our fault, or at least we're made to feel like it's our fault as fat folks.

• 29:42Speaker 03

  I think the main narrative about fat people is I don't have to have sympathy for you or consider your humanity because as far as I'm concerned, you brought this on yourself. Right? Like if there's a villain here, there's no question that it's airlines. Right? If you've ever been uncomfortable on an airplane, the people you should be mad at, and frankly, the people I'm mad at are the Boeing designers.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  This is your host speaking. This has been my thinking recently. Why is anyone on a plane mad at other passengers? Unless someone is being inconsiderate invading your space, like say putting their feet on your shoulders or drooling on you while they sleep. When we're flying, there's going to be a lot of incidental encroaching on each other's spaces. It's just going to happen, but we're all in this together. There's no reason to be mad at someone that's in the same situation that you are. Even if a baby is crying or someone is snoring, you could put on headphones.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  But it seems that we're expecting that the tacit agreement is that if you're going to fly, you better conform to the space that you're allowed rather than allowing for discussion about why that space seems to be shrinking. And one of the reasons for the squeeze is that airlines have been constantly changing how they offer services. These changes. Hannah says stem from the introduction of budget airlines like Spirit and Frontier.

• 31:09Speaker 04

  They came in and competed with these very low prices and that forced the bigger airlines like Delta and American to carve out like a bottom, bottom rung for passengers of kind of a basic economy experience where you get like no, no perks whatsoever. You just, you get a ticket and you get to bring a personal item and everything else is just like be, be glad that we saved a space for you.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  I remember when the idea of basic economy was introduced. This bottom rung level of travel that I think is beautifully characterized by Hannah saying, be glad we saved the space for you. Airlines essentially took the parts of travel that we assumed would come naturally as a part of the ride and have begun charging for each portion of it. Everything was becoming à la carte.

• 31:59Speaker 04

  If you're paying the cheapest $150 round trip ticket, you're not the comfort passenger. In that case, you're the bare bones passenger and you're gonna pay for your cheap flight with a lack of comfort and a lack of amenities.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  And the reason this is happening feels pretty obvious, but I asked Hannah for her take anyway. There, there has been no balance when it comes to revenue versus passenger comfort. Why do you think that they are on the side of revenue versus passenger comfort?

• 32:35Speaker 04

  I mean, so airlines are really focusing on revenue because they're publicly traded companies, like their, their duty is to their shareholders and they are held accountable by Wall Street. So, I mean, that's kind of top of mind in all of their business decisions. And I would agree that it's good business decision for customers to be happy and comfortable and to want to fly their airline, but really, I would say the way that they've been thinking about comfort is how can we make a more comfortable experience that you will then pay more money for?

• 33:16Speaker 01

  This is flying right now. Capitalism at its finest. Essentially charging to the point that for some folks, flying isn't even an option for them financially. And for those who can afford to fly, you can expect to have a more cramped trip, regardless of where you're going, unless you cough up more money. And this is frustrating for everyone. Here's Aubrey reading from her book again.

• 33:40Speaker 03

  I have yet to meet anyone who raves about the cushy seating in the coach section of a commercial airliner. Flying is expensive, cramped, trying, and taxing. Luggage gets cumbersome. We miss connections. Our relationships get strained. And at the height of all that stress, boarding, my wide, soft body becomes their target. Rather than being a compatriot stuck in the same cramped, uncomfortable position as everyone else, I become a scapegoat for all their frustration. In moments like those, it's hard to get angry with a corporation, its executives, and industrial designers. It's much easier to get angry with the fat person who dared to fly.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  I can't tell you how many times I've been slammed by the beverage cart because I was leaning into the aisle to get away from my seat neighbor. Or explain to you the anxiety of having to walk down the aisle to a bathroom that I can barely fit inside of. And even in these times, I wasn't mad at the airline. I was mad at myself. Whenever I think about losing weight or imagine myself thinner, one of the first experiences I think about is comfortably sitting in an airplane seat. But that target is moving because the seats keep shrinking.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  After the break, we talk about why.

• 35:16PJ Vogt?

  This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Toyota. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it all starts with a great deal from your local Toyota dealer. Make a smart buy on an all-wheel-drive Camry, Corolla, or Cross, or get a Corolla sedan packed with the latest features, advanced tech, and head-turning style. Take a test drive in two of Toyota's most popular SUVs, the spacious, family-friendly Grand Highlander and adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid and plug-in hybrid models available across the lineup, plus efficient all-electrics like the BZ, BZ Woodland, and all-wheel-drive CHR, you can drive your way and skip the pump. And, long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with legendary resale value

• 35:58PJ Vogt?

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• 36:19PJ Vogt?

  This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Vanguard. To all the financial advisors listening, let's talk bonds for a minute. Capturing value in fixed income is not easy. Bond markets are massive, murky, and let's be real, lots of firms throw a couple flashy funds your way and call it a day. But not Vanguard. Vanguard bonds are institutional quality, meaning top-grade products built as a true commitment to your clients. Their impressive lineup features over 80 bond funds actively driven by a global team of 200 sector specialists, analysts, and traders. While other firms push star portfolio managers, Vanguard relies on collective brainpower, so every client benefits from shared expertise. Instead of chasing high-stakes gambles that lead to volatile rides, Vanguard delivers steady, reliable, and consistent performance designed for the long haul.

• 37:04PJ Vogt?

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• 37:22PJ Vogt?

  This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Viori. I have been living in my new gear from Viori and honestly, it has completely transformed my daily routine. I picked up the Sunday Performance Jogger from their Sunday Collection, and they've quickly become my absolute go-to pants, whether I'm heading out for an early morning run, working from home, or grabbing coffee with friends. The soft, lightweight, four-way performance stretch gives you total freedom to move without feeling restricted. Plus, their website makes finding your exact style and size ridiculously easy, so you can check out the rest of the Sunday Collection, including their incredible hoodies, shorts, and jackets. Viori is an investment in your happiness. And for our listeners, they're offering 20% off your first purchase. Get yourselves some of the most comfortable

• 38:04PJ Vogt?

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• 38:38Speaker 01

  So in my conversation with Aubrey about airlines, she mentioned something specific about the seat sizes shrinking.

• 38:45Speaker 03

  Not only are we going to make these seats small enough that they don't fit most people, but we're actually going to shrink them over time, under pressure from airlines, right? In between, I think it was 2009 and 2019, the seat width on US airplanes decreased by about 10%. That's just within 10 years, right?

• 39:11Speaker 01

  It's true. The shrinking seat sizes have been so alarming that Congress and the FAA have been called on to intervene. Congress is like, hey, what's going on with these shrinking seats? It's not safe for people if there's an emergency.

• 39:23Speaker 05

  Emergency evacuation because you're supposed to be able to get off the plane in 90 seconds.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  That's Andrea Sachs, another reporter with The Washington Post. She's been covering travel for 24 years. She's written quite a bit about the intersections of disability and air travel, as well as the experiences of plus-sized folks flying. Andrea filled me in with what happened with Congress.

• 39:46Speaker 05

  They went to FAA, they said, you need to do some testing on this and some public comment. And they got 27,000 comments, I believe. I don't know anyone who was like, oh, they're perfect size for me. Most people were like, these are way too small. Someone said, the average American cannot fit into a seat that's 17 inches wide.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  And to Aubrey's original point, 17 inches wide is actually more generous than what's reported. In some cases and configurations, economy class seats can be as small as 16 inches wide. And keep in mind, this puts you right up next to your seatmate, who was also struggling in their 16-inch seat, only 28 inches, in some cases, from the person in front of them.

• 40:31Speaker 05

  It's not just people of certain girth. It's people who have height and they have broad shoulders. It's pregnant women. So it falls under the large category of really all Americans.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  So where it stands now is that Congress is putting pressure on the FAA to come up with a minimum seat size that would be considered safe for everyone. This would be the start to solving the cramped travel on a plane and would be helpful to plus-size travelers who are already doing everything they can to not encroach on their neighbors. And while I think it's a little troubling that the government has to intervene to fix this, we already know that, given the opportunity, we can't count on the airlines to do right by its passengers. For instance, let's take a return trip with Bridget home from vacation.

• 41:20Speaker 02

  I was so shook up from that instance that I changed my flight and I followed their customer of size policy.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  Bridget has flown on Southwest Airlines over 50 times and had never used their customer of size policy. But after her incident with the flight attendant, she didn't want to take any chances. Here's Andrea Sachs again with the policy details.

• 41:43Speaker 05

  You can book online a second seat and then you will get it refunded. Or if you don't want to do that, you can also just go to the gate and right before boarding, if there's availability, they will allow you to have a second boarding pass.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  You also get priority boarding, which is a nice perk when you want to have maximum control of where you're sitting. You do have to pay for the second seat. You receive the refund after you travel, or you have to risk asking at the gate before boarding and have to hope there's room to do it. Bridget paid the extra money and did it online. But when she got to the airport, she ran into some trouble once again when talking to the ticketing agent.

• 42:22Speaker 02

  I told her and she said, oh, okay. Yeah, no problem. But she didn't look like it was no problem. Like she looked like, I don't really know how to do this. And she ended up handing me back two boarding passes to for two different people, Bridget McDonald and Bridget X. McDonald. And I was like, I don't think that's right. I got to my gate and I went up to the desk and I said, hey, this is my situation. I'm a customer of size, if you can't tell. And here are my tickets. Did they do this right at the full service desk? And she looks and she goes, no, this is not correct. This is as if you're two different people. And I was like, right. So what do we do? And ended up cancelling my tickets altogether. Then tried to re get me on the plane. And now it's sold out.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  The gate agent was able to get Bridget one seat on the plane, just one, which put Bridget back in the position she was in during her original trip, at risk of having someone humiliate her while traveling. Bridget wasn't going to put up with this again.

• 43:23Speaker 02

  So I ended up having to have a really serious conversation with her where I said, ma'am, I know this isn't your fault, but I gotta tell you something. On my way here, this is what happened to me. And I explained it to her. And I'm like, I'm crying, but I'm like steadily, I'm crying in a way that's not like my voice is quivering. It's just like tears are coming down because I'm so frustrated. And I said, and I understand that this is not your fault. However, I'm gonna tell you what, I am going to be boarding that plane as a priority. And I'm going to trust that you will have this sorted by the time that I get on the plane. Because for doing all this, I'm getting on that plane first. And I'm getting a reserved seat.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  Bridget successfully got on the plane with priority boarding and got the reserved seat next to her and by all accounts had an uneventful trip home, which is exactly what should have happened the first time. But I really hate this experience for Bridget and this story really bothers me because Southwest, at least anecdotally, is supposed to be the best airline for fat folks and they're not even getting it right. Bridget tried to follow the rules and was met with several layers of obstacles and was required to advocate for herself in a way that most fat folks don't necessarily have the energy for when they're just trying to get to their destinations. That's not to say that the open seating and customer of size policies and priority boarding aren't great.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  They are, and there are plenty of fat folks who have benefited from these policies and flown comfortably. But Bridget didn't and others won't, I'm sure. And also, this is a policy of one airline, an airline that, like Hannah Sampson said, is subject to the whims of shareholders and has to make money, which means we're depending on them to do right by their passengers and we have to hope that the right and comfortable policy aligns with the most lucrative one. So unless Congress puts pressure on the FAA to make the airlines do something, there's no guarantee that policies that may benefit fat folks and honestly, all folks, like open seating, won't go away. Because open seating is going away.

• 45:38Speaker 04

  They started to give hints a few months back and sure enough, they announced just recently that that process, that whole wild boarding position, grab the seat that you want, process is going away. And they're going to assign seats and also have certain seats that they will consider premium that you have to pay extra for. So a total vibe shift in the Southwest offering.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  For plus-size passengers, this means the one airline that was doing the most for fat folks is now going to be just like every other airline. And I just want to get to my final destination with no incidents, major or minor. I'm concerned that eventually I'm going to be marched off the plane. I'm going to be forced to buy a second seat. I'm going to get my picture taken and go viral for being the fat man on the plane who dared to fly. And I think despite knowing for a fact that it won't be my fault, I'll still bear the blame because I'm fat. My options are to lose weight and don't travel by plane until I do, or wait for an act of Congress.

• 46:53Speaker 01

  So like, if you could wave a wand and fix air travel for fat folks, what would you change specifically?

• 47:01Speaker 03

  I would aim for planes that are designed with the principles of universal design in mind. Because I'll tell you what, planes are not very accessible for fat people one bit. They're also not super accessible for parents with little kids. They're also not super accessible for disabled people, for wheelchair users, or anybody using mobility aids, right? So if instead of thinking, the only people really designing for here are short and thin, what if we thought about, here's the breadth of human bodies that exist, what's the vehicle that we could make that would carry the most of those human bodies, right? The widest range of those human bodies.

• 47:45Speaker 03

  That, to me, would feel like a huge win, to have us designing planes for people rather than insisting that people fit planes.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  I don't know if we'll ever see the day where they're designing planes in that way. But until they do, please remember, even fat folks have places to be. And we just want to get there in peace.

• 48:20PJ Vogt?

  Ronald Young Jr. He's the host of the show Wait For It. That's Wait For It, W E I G H T. Definitely go check it out. The best place to start is season one, episode one.

• 48:46PJ Vogt?

  Okay, Ronald, you have a recommendation to share with us before we go.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  I do. So, uh, my friend Nicole Hill, brilliant audio producer, has a new show that I'm very excited about and I really enjoy. It's called Our Ancestors Were Messy. It's out in February.

• 49:03PJ Vogt?

  Our Ancestors Were Messy?

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Yes, it is so good. It is essentially her diving into the black newspapers of yesteryear and kind of instead of telling stories about like segregation and racism, just talking about stories about black people living and how that looks in the newspapers. Because these are black newspapers and they were talking about black people, but there was a lot of gossip that was happening. So she's telling these true stories of black gossip from yesteryear from these very classic newspapers that we don't hear about. She did a lot of research and digging and the stories are so much fun. They're so much fun. They're hilarious. She's a great host and it's sound designed well. It's just, it's really, it's almost like if you want to listen to like a normal gossip.

• 49:50PJ Vogt?

  Yeah.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  But just that it's set in a specific time way back in the day. It's like, ah, just great listening. Our Ancestors Were Messy from Nicole Hill.

• 49:59PJ Vogt?

  That's so cool. It's like, it's like a mashup of like normal gossip and like a historical period.

• 50:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, almost like our normal gossip and drunk history, minus the drinking, or like light drinking, I think.

• 50:12PJ Vogt?

  Okay, Our Ancestors Were Messy. And this is, this is coming out in February?

• 50:15Speaker 01

  Yes, this comes out in February.

• 50:17PJ Vogt?

  Awesome.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:22PJ Vogt?

  Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw Productions. It was created by me, PJ Vogt, and Truthy Pinamaneni, and is produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John. Theme, original composition and mixing by Armin Bezarian. Ronald's story was originally broadcast on Wait For It. It was called Into Thin Air. And that episode was produced and written by Ronald Young Jr., the story editor with Sarah Dealey. Sound design and mixing from the Reverend John Delore of Starlight Diner. Wait For It theme music from Jay Redd, with additional music in this episode from Masked Potential, the artist D.T., and the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Hey, Breakmaster. Wait For It is a production of Oh, It's Big Ron Studios, and is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX.

• 51:05PJ Vogt?

  Special thanks to Bridget Quinn McDonald, Aubrey Gordon, Hannah Sampson, Andrea Sacks, Diana Howell, and the rest of the kind folks at The Washington Post. Search Engine's executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Leah Reese-Dennis. Thanks to the team at Jigsaw: Alex Gibney, Rich Perillo, and John Schmidt, and to the team at Odyssey: J.D. Crowley, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Matt Casey, Kate Hutchison, Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Kirk Courtney, and Hillary Schuff. Our agent is Orin Rosenbaum at UTA. Follow and listen to Search Engine with PJ Vogt now for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. That's it for us this week. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.

• 51:53Speaker 04

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